Guild Wars 2

Hey guys, today’s patch (08/03/17) has brought a “stealth nerf” to the skill Epidemic

WvW only: Does not affect structures or targets with resistance.

Thoughts? (:

http://imgur.com/a/epGUK

Par for the course. Nerf Core skills/traits and not touch anything OP that came from HoT.

Reaper/Nerco need not apply for WvW now.

DAM i am happily to see this wvw only but…. resistance is way too strong if epi dose not even effect it any more. Epi should not work on structures at all (wvw doors mostly) and others.

I guess now there room to nerf resistance to being only a -condi dmg % and cut down on its duration.

Also though stealth got nerf too in wvw one day right? Don’t play with the word stealth for wvwers.

Enough crying on forums and the dev team caves in.

Way to go, Anet. Can we hope you delete thieves now when enough people open threads about them?

gebrechen.5643:

Enough crying on forums and the dev team caves in.

Way to go, Anet. Can we hope you delete thieves now when enough people open threads about them?

By your own tag you will as a player will just have to get better. Because killing ppl to epi is not a skill base thing before now it is. Its not that much more just simply wait for resistances not to be on some ones bar and the boon strip that necors get they have a lot of build in counter play.

There was no STEALTH nerf just a hidden nerf to epi btw. I know its very confusion.

Thoughts on it? This was a stupid and shortsighted nerf to a skill that was pretty well balanced. All this did is make resistance even more powerful, since now on top of being immune to conditions, it is also making you immune to skills being cast on you period.

Resistance was already way too strong, and this did nothing but make resistance even stronger, and throw epi into the ground since groups have such high resistance uptimes. This is ridiculous. Now you can’t even use epi most of the time due to resistance.

This didn’t miss the mark, they saw the mark and ran in the opposite direction of it.

This is a great step in the right direction for a lot of reasons!

Reason 1: WvW ‘CAN’ in fact be balanced separately from PvE… let’s see a LOT more of that Anet

Reason 2: This was a great fix for epidemic, it’s still very strong but now has legitimate counter aside from blasting 10 Light Fields in .5 seconds.

Reason 3: Anet LISTENED to us WvW’rs! Not to be snarky but this honestly means a lot. I think we can all agree that WvW players want to see better communication across the board. We love this game and particularly this game mode, we WANT it to succeed, believe me!

Overall this ‘ninja’ patch makes me very happy for all the above reasons and it gives me hope for the future of WvW. I implore any/all Anet employees to continue on this train of positive change…
- One such simple change would be adding a Stealth ‘BREAK’ to Condition Application. This would throttle back Ghost Thieves to a much more counter-able place and even help against Condition Mesmers running Torch and/or PU.

So now we see more boonstrips and the bs continues, what a great nerf……

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

So now we see more boonstrips and the bs continues, what a great nerf……

Sounds like a job for a power well necro!

Jski.6180:

By your own tag you will as a player will just have to get better. Because killing ppl to epi is not a skill base thing before now it is. Its not that much more just simply wait for resistances not to be on some ones bar and the boon strip that necors get they have a lot of build in counter play.

There was no STEALTH nerf just a hidden nerf to epi btw. I know its very confusion.

It’s a stupid change. Why? You make the game more difficult for one class while you make it alot easier for the whole melee train. No more good positioning, just keeping resistance going. Most necros will have to switch to power now, because it isn’t harder and you don’t depend on hitting epi – which wasn’t easy when considering movement, latenty and damage.
Yes, epi off siege equipment was easy, but how is that a problem? Don’t hug siege and you are fine.

Zephyra.4709:

Hey guys, today’s patch (08/03/17) has brought a “stealth nerf” to the skill Epidemic

WvW only: Does not affect structures or targets with resistance.

Thoughts? (:

http://imgur.com/a/epGUK

Great job devs! Keep up the good work! This is one tiny step, of many needed for reworking condition designs, to improve and balance combat gameplay!

I’m not sure how anyone can argue with the epidemic on objects part.

The part with resistance seems a bit interesting, but I imagine most condi necros are carrying corrupt boon anyways. Will take a bit of effort, but it’s not that big of a deal.

This also opens the door to being able to tweak/nerf resistance if needed.

Personally, I think we should reduce the cap on players to less than 1500 stacks of condi (yes, that’s the actual limit), but that’s just me.

Anyhow, these actions I will applaud even if I don’t necessarily agree. It does kinda suck that I’m in the middle of crafting ascended viper and spent quite a bit of time to get trailblazer trinkets but whatever. It’s good that they only kept it in WvW; Necros could use help in PvE.

The resistance thing was necessary because of how detrimental demon stance revs were to zergs. They would absorb all the conditions from allies around them, then necros would just target them with epi and cause mass downs once the resistance ran out.

And now you got a god mode with your rev against conditions?

Epi is a short duration utility skill and not something an entire build should be built around. No build should center around one utility so much so that altering it to remove two very specific targets prevents the build from running properly.

The very idea that a build is centered around a single utility is proof that said utility needs a nerf.

just have to make sure you corrupt whoever youre going to epi, you can still get rekt by it

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_remove_boons
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_transform_boons_into_conditions
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Traits_that_remove_boons
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Traits_that_convert_boons_into_conditions

Oh, and most of them are on necros.

I’m content that the nerf wasn’t over done. I’m upset that Resistance just got a huge buff.

It’s nice that the skill still functions the “same” as it did. It’s a bit frustrating that this favors the boonshare tank meta even more. Though I’m not at all surprised given how many people cried about it, I am surprised they didn’t overdo the nerf.

A radius reduction + not allowing it to work on siege was what should have been done but digress, at least it still has it’s niche in tact.

ArchonWing.9480:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_remove_boons
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_transform_boons_into_conditions
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Traits_that_remove_boons
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Traits_that_convert_boons_into_conditions

Oh, and most of them are on necros.

And how many of them are on the same builds or weapon sets?
And how many boons are corrupted vs boons are granted?

Are you really serious about your argument?

gebrechen.5643:

ArchonWing.9480:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_remove_boons
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_transform_boons_into_conditions
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Traits_that_remove_boons
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Traits_that_convert_boons_into_conditions

Oh, and most of them are on necros.

And how many of them are on the same builds or weapon sets?
And how many boons are corrupted vs boons are granted?

Are you really serious about your argument?

Yes, are you?

Do you actually play necro? Because you shouldn’t even have to ask these questions.

This “nerf” changes nothing except now players have to watch the boon bar and pay attention to what they’re casting epi on(downs can’t even get resistance so that will still be strong). Stop crying and go test it and you’ll see that its as strong as it ever was.

The change seems focused on addressing the “punished by my teammate” sort of flow that was occurring with warriors and revenants. Resistance being a counter to epidemic is an interesting parallel to Aegis countering most direct damage attacks or stability countering crowd-control skills. I’m not satisfied however. This change makes resistance even stronger than it was previously and doesn’t address the counter play issues (visual tells, instant active effect, and epidemic on lords to name a few).

I’ve been playing necro as one of my mains for a bit now (ele got boring/nerfed and less drops as water ele), and glad to say I didn’t join in the epidemic fad, so not going to miss it either.

A good change, next up will be bleed stacking on chill in a month or so.

I only play necro. Always did. That’s why I ask you if you are serious.

On my normal wvw condi build there are three.

Cool. Now we need a topic titled “PSA: How to handle resistance in wvw” for some delicious poetic justice.

gebrechen.5643:

I only play necro. Always did. That’s why I ask you if you are serious.

On my normal wvw condi build there are three.

A necro casting corrupt boon (10s cooldown) in league with a Rev casting Banish enchantment will instantly remove 5 boons on a target. This isn’t to exclude things like the end of Scepter AA and whatever the heck you want to put in the 3rd slot.

So in a way, I am serious because you don’t even need half the skills of the page. You just need about 3 people to completely render anyone inoperable.

This is a really bad way to balance things. X Counters Y is some Riot/blizzard crap. soft/fuzzy counters are more fluid and interesting than just a blanket solution, because you leave room open for tipping points in investment:reward.

And now just to remove 3 bleed on chill and everything will be perfect.

Hope they undo the other ninja nerf on boon remove hierarchy. Long time ago corrupt boon always remove resistance first, then stab. not sure what is the current order.

My faith in the balance team has been restored. These are perfectly reasonable changes!!

Keep up the good work dev team!!

Epidemic still unblockable and can’t miss (from blind)? Because that’s actually another part of the issue.

At the end of the night, this just means Necros need to run scepter (dur), Corrupt Boon and/or Well of Corruption (dur dur) in WvW so make sure you are all run meta Necro/Reaper build now.

Pretty sure I’ve seen epidemic miss before. Is that really a thing?

Unblockable is needed because of the nature of HoT and passive aegis everywhere. Blockable would further increase the bias towards Revs mind you.

Ragnarox.9601:

And now just to remove 3 bleed on chill and everything will be perfect.

Oh wow, just wreck necro, you want a cake walk?

I’m not that concerned about the stealth nerf to epi but I am HUGELY concerned that a precedent has been set for a deluge of whiny threads about various skills for nerf….

He is a terrible thief player.

Lahmia.2193:

The resistance thing was necessary because of how detrimental demon stance revs were to zergs. They would absorb all the conditions from allies around them, then necros would just target them with epi and cause mass downs once the resistance ran out.

A change that would have helped revs more would have been removing resistance and redesigning Revs legends. Resistance can still be corrupted and revs are still kitten out of luck.

No single boon should be powerful enough for you to ignore all condition damage, on top of ignoring all soft CC and other effects from conditions. And now that same boon also makes you immune to 1 skill even being used on you.

This needs to end. Resistance needs t be removed at this point, not continuously made stronger

OriOri.8724:

Lahmia.2193:

The resistance thing was necessary because of how detrimental demon stance revs were to zergs. They would absorb all the conditions from allies around them, then necros would just target them with epi and cause mass downs once the resistance ran out.

A change that would have helped revs more would have been removing resistance and redesigning Revs legends. Resistance can still be corrupted and revs are still kitten out of luck.

No single boon should be powerful enough for you to ignore all condition damage, on top of ignoring all soft CC and other effects from conditions. And now that same boon also makes you immune to 1 skill even being used on you.

This needs to end. Resistance needs t be removed at this point, not continuously made stronger

Nah, conditions were never meant to be a primary source of damage. And if there are builds where it was the primary source, they were never meant to perform better than power. (Which is what we’re in the midst of at the moment.)

If you want to kill someone using conditions, you run the risk of the other player using resistance. (Which there is still counter-play to, as you can boon strip.)

If anything, the power creep of conditions have made the casual player-base more spoiled in thinking that conditions are a viable means of skillful play.

Did you all forget about the past versions of these traits/utilities?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Response
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diamond_Skin
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker_Stance

Resistance simply replaced traits similar to those things. Except, there was no counter to diamond skin. No counter to berserker stance. No counter to automated response. There is a counter to resistance. The game is pretty balanced right now when compared to a few years ago.

The Game Slayer.7632:

OriOri.8724:

Lahmia.2193:

The resistance thing was necessary because of how detrimental demon stance revs were to zergs. They would absorb all the conditions from allies around them, then necros would just target them with epi and cause mass downs once the resistance ran out.

A change that would have helped revs more would have been removing resistance and redesigning Revs legends. Resistance can still be corrupted and revs are still kitten out of luck.

No single boon should be powerful enough for you to ignore all condition damage, on top of ignoring all soft CC and other effects from conditions. And now that same boon also makes you immune to 1 skill even being used on you.

This needs to end. Resistance needs t be removed at this point, not continuously made stronger

Nah, conditions were never meant to be a primary source of damage. And if there are builds where it was the primary source, they were never meant to perform better than power. (Which is what we’re in the midst of at the moment.)

If you want to kill someone using conditions, you run the risk of the other player using resistance. (Which there is still counter-play to, as you can boon strip.)

If anything, the power creep of conditions have made the casual player-base more spoiled in thinking that conditions are a viable means of skillful play.

Did you all forget about the past versions of these traits/utilities?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Automated_Response
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diamond_Skin
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker_Stance

Resistance simply replaced traits similar to those things. Except, there was no counter to diamond skin. No counter to berserker stance. No counter to automated response. There is a counter to resistance. The game is pretty balanced right now when compared to a few years ago.

If you’re drawing intent from game balance or dev comment’s from 4 years ago, that’s irrelevant now. The same team that made the game doesn’t do balance on it, and HoT kitten on most design concepts the core game got right.

The “balance” by just making X no longer work on Y that has no precedent in the entire game is lazy and boring. The fun of builds comes from various investments and opportunity costs and how they pay off against other builds. Just flat out saying “I have X, so Y doesn’t hurt me” is really stupid. Resistance was a bad idea from the start, and this “balance” change is going further in that lazy, boring direction.

The issue with GW2 is the parent company wants to spend no money on balancing it so lazy changes like this will continue and you get X counters Y balancing that takes minimal man power aka money. The original balance team had a good head on their shoulders.

Artaz.3819:

Epidemic still unblockable and can’t miss (from blind)? Because that’s actually another part of the issue.

At the end of the night, this just means Necros need to run scepter (dur), Corrupt Boon and/or Well of Corruption (dur dur) in WvW so make sure you are all run meta Necro/Reaper build now.

Epi can be stopped by blind (all too often I’ve had this happen) and the target can dodge the initial attack. However the epi “splash” cannot be dodged.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Nah, conditions were never meant to be a primary source of damage…

Nonsense.

Well of Corruption…Ftw. Just have a few Necs run it and toss them down in nice little path in front when the zerg charges in and watch the tears of the boon share meta flow again. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption

Just spam chill and bleed as usual, problem solved.

Mentioned this in another thread:

Epi is an unblockable AoE condi cloner on a 13.5s timer with no DPS limit. Think about that in a condi-heavy meta.

There is literally no other skill in the game that can equal this skills potential DPS and nothing even close with that short of a timer. Even on a sub-par target it has a crazy good DPS for a utility.

zinkz.7045:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Nah, conditions were never meant to be a primary source of damage…

Nonsense.

Well if you bothered to read the entire comment, you’d understand the point. Allow me to re-iterate so you can understand.

Conditions were never meant to be stronger than power damage.

Straegen.2938:

Mentioned this in another thread:

Epi is an unblockable AoE condi cloner on a 13.5s timer with no DPS limit. Think about that in a condi-heavy meta.

There is literally no other skill in the game that can equal this skills potential DPS and nothing even close with that short of a timer. Even on a sub-par target it has a crazy good DPS for a utility.

It is capped at 25 stacks. Also it makes you wonder why epidemic hasn’t been part of wvw meta, despite being the same for 2 years.

The Game Slayer.7632:

zinkz.7045:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Nah, conditions were never meant to be a primary source of damage…

Nonsense.

Well if you bothered to read the entire comment, you’d understand the point. Allow me to re-iterate so you can understand.

Conditions were never meant to be stronger than power damage.

You make this claim, and yet you ignore the fact that condition builds have been buffed to the point of competing with power builds. Like it or not, the devs do not agree with this statement anymore. Otherwise we wouldn’t be in a place where a condi bomb from a mesmer could down you in 1 sec.

Conditions are a valid way to deal high damage in this game. get used to it, because its how the game has evolved.

MadBomber.3719:

just have to make sure you corrupt whoever youre going to epi, you can still get rekt by it

I mean you should be corrupting them before you epi anyway, you get more condis for corrupting in the first place.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Conditions were never meant to be stronger than power damage.

Lol really?

Hope you’re joking.

There are 2 different DPS types in the game. Power and Conditions. Both are meant to kill at the same rate. Just different applications.

And this change wasn’t original in the patch notes because WvW changes don’t matter, amirite.

Tricare.2946:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Conditions were never meant to be stronger than power damage.

Lol really?

Hope you’re joking.

There are 2 different DPS types in the game. Power and Conditions. Both are meant to kill at the same rate. Just different applications.

They aren’t meant to kill at the same rate. Condis are attritional, its why a lot of condi gear stacks defensive attributes, so they can survive long enough for the condis to work.

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