Guild Wars 2

incoming Crit Damage nerf is because a PvE issue

Crit Damage nerf is not going to PvP, because its balanced there, says the dev.

Crit Damage nerf is going to WvW because ………………………….. ?

Juba.8406:

incoming Crit Damage nerf is because a PvE issue

Crit Damage nerf is not going to PvP, because its balanced there, says the dev.

Crit Damage nerf is going to WvW because ………………………….. ?

… because Anet considers WvW part of PvE. That’s why, for example WvW is needed for map completion and why that Living Story garbage shows up in WvW.

Consider the following: The TTK in Guild Wars 2 is higher than in Guild Wars which had dedicated healers.

Why does it matter though? Whether you win or not in WvW is large group effort. It is not a dueling arena.

Also, it is not like you win anything special if you win WvW neither.

WvW also start to lean more and more on tanky setup, unless you are playing highly specialized role that need protection.

Only thieves should be complaining, since they got another big nerf, and can’t fit any other role aside those “highly specialized role” (thou they don’t need much protection… because they are already dead! haha? not funny? darn)

what about roamers ?

already bunker-condi builds are OP, after this patch what reason left to roll a power roaming build.

crit damage nerf should not hit WvW just like PvP.

Juba.8406:

what about roamers ?

already bunker-condi builds are OP, after this patch what reason left to roll a power roaming build.

crit damage nerf should not hit WvW just like PvP.

like u said, bunker-condi is already the build to go for… anything else is already history.

this doesn’t change anything aside to make stubborn people drop their build.

i am just saying the emotion is uncalled for when nothing for wvw has changed. Aside thieves. Thieves probably… should change class… I know I did.

still PvE balance should never affect WvW.

pulupulu.9730:

Juba.8406:

what about roamers ?

already bunker-condi builds are OP, after this patch what reason left to roll a power roaming build.

crit damage nerf should not hit WvW just like PvP.

like u said, bunker-condi is already the build to go for… anything else is already history.

this doesn’t change anything aside to make stubborn people drop their build.

i am just saying the emotion is uncalled for when nothing for wvw has changed. Aside thieves. Thieves probably… should change class… I know I did.

Define stubborn people for me ? You mean Melee classes that dont like to go condi road ? Listen..if i want to go condi road,ill make me a kitten necro.Anet is pushing classes to condi road,“WHO DO NOT BELONG IN THE CONDI ROAD AT THE FIRST PLACE”….Theres zero diversity in this game,its just gone since everyone is being pushed to go the same road.

Warrior master of weapons and melee combat, now goes full conditions. Not even logic in that, but you got to play what is strongest. Stupid not too.

MiLkZz.4789:

Warrior master of weapons and melee combat, now goes full conditions. Not even logic in that, but you got to play what is strongest. Stupid not too.

^ Ding ding ,we got a winner !!

I honestly can’t understand why they didn’t just buff mobs so that more toughness was needed… instead they completely screw us up in an entirely different game mode. Honestly what were they even thinking ….

Well, technically I agree with them – the crit damage you can achieve in PvP is IMO much more reasonable and modest, resulting in better and longer duels.

However condition damage is still fairly strong in PvP and now its just going to be ridiculously strong in PvE. Unless they nerf the damage overall (ie including condition) this change remain kittened and WvW get the sharp end of the stick up its kitten .

Then again that would only press the issue of gaining insane armor. Zerkers already have problems breaking through the regen of certain tank built classes (ie Warrior/Guardian).

Judge Banks.9018:

Consider the following: The TTK in Guild Wars 2 is higher than in Guild Wars which had dedicated healers.

Tell that to my Endure Pain Echo Warrior!!

A: Its not that they don’t care. Its that the parent company, NCSoft, is cheap and won’t devote the resources necessary.

Johje Holan.4607:

A: Its not that they don’t care. Its that the parent company, NCSoft, is cheap and won’t devote the resources necessary.

To hire people with good ideas ? I mean, i know they probably have deadlines to come up with updates and balance patches, but nerf crit damage just because people that choose builds with no defensive stats in their gear clear dungeons faster then those who pick tanky gear?? Anyone see problem in this ? Damage dealers kill fast, tanks kill slow – that looks normal to me. The problem is in combat system itself, because builds that cant take a hit or they will die can chose to avoid damage alltogether by dodging and people that build themselves more tanky still can get one shoted by same mobs. Reducing crit damage and so shafting crit builds in other game modes wont fix your concept of pve. I honestly dont understand who caused this “qq them cool zerkers kids kick me out from party” meta. Full exotic berserker gear is worth weekend of gold farm and all you qqers can go do those dungeons with them zerk kids.

I am sick hearing people complain about this crit damage nerf. If sigils go to 100% proc like they were saying, with no shared CDs? Then all your precious builds will be more powerful than before. It seems to me this is only to stop the one shots I’ve been hearing about, and stopping those is a good thing.

BAITness.1083:

I am sick hearing people complain about this crit damage nerf. If sigils go to 100% proc like they were saying, with no shared CDs? Then all your precious builds will be more powerful than before. It seems to me this is only to stop the one shots I’ve been hearing about, and stopping those is a good thing.

Some sigils will, but they have all been looked at and rebalanced, so be sure some will get nerfs and not all will be 100%. Definitely not the strong ones like fire and air.

Go watch the stream again if you don’t believe me.

Your crit damage in sPvP, before runes, can get to 50% from traits/amulet/gem. My crit damage in WvW is at 96% discounting runes.

Of course they didn’t move the change to sPvP, because they’ve focused on balancing stat weights specifically for smaller-scale PvP encounters there. That’s what that is. WvW is just a big sandbox to PvP around in with your PvE character.

Maybe they do care about WvW, and that’s why they are making this change. Who here has stopped to consider the possibility that he/she is wrong, and the crit damage change is warranted? If you haven’t, even for a second, then you need to step back and try.

MiLkZz.4789:

BAITness.1083:

I am sick hearing people complain about this crit damage nerf. If sigils go to 100% proc like they were saying, with no shared CDs? Then all your precious builds will be more powerful than before. It seems to me this is only to stop the one shots I’ve been hearing about, and stopping those is a good thing.

Some sigils will, but they have all been looked at and rebalanced, so be sure some will get nerfs and not all will be 100%. Definitely not the strong ones like fire and air.

Go watch the stream again if you don’t believe me.

It is not at all an issue of disbelieving you, it is more an issue of only the one shot builds are getting nerfed. The rest I think will find they are going to be better off.

BAITness.1083:

MiLkZz.4789:

BAITness.1083:

I am sick hearing people complain about this crit damage nerf. If sigils go to 100% proc like they were saying, with no shared CDs? Then all your precious builds will be more powerful than before. It seems to me this is only to stop the one shots I’ve been hearing about, and stopping those is a good thing.

Some sigils will, but they have all been looked at and rebalanced, so be sure some will get nerfs and not all will be 100%. Definitely not the strong ones like fire and air.

Go watch the stream again if you don’t believe me.

It is not at all an issue of disbelieving you, it is more an issue of only the one shot builds are getting nerfed. The rest I think will find they are going to be better off.

Again no, and I don’t want to be too much of a know it all here. But it is the semi tanky knight/zerker mixers or celestial builds that are getting hit the hardest. A 10% dmg nerf to full zerker will result to a 20%+ to these types of builds. And they were used the most by power roamers, being a good mix of offense and defense. Now it will only be defense. Meaning their damage will be too kitten to kill people. So basically this patch will give use 3 options:
1) go full zerker and try to still kill your enemy before he kills you
2) go full tank and support and run in bigger groups to amplify the damage
3) go condi bunker

Everything in between with unfortunately not be worth it anymore.

Karolis.4261:

Johje Holan.4607:

A: Its not that they don’t care. Its that the parent company, NCSoft, is cheap and won’t devote the resources necessary.

To hire people with good ideas ? I mean, i know they probably have deadlines to come up with updates and balance patches.

Yet they have 350 employees, I have no idea how they’re apportioned but chances are good the size of the balance team is nothing compared to the teams they have pushing out stupid Living Story content.

Furthermore, show me A SINGLE MMO that has introduced this “Collaborative Development Initiative” – great, let’s get the community involved to do THEIR JOBS FOR FREE. That alone should raise flags in our minds, pretty clear their design and balancing teams have no good ideas or direction of their own.

Enough talking to cover up, time for them to start delivering before it’s too late.

MiLkZz.4789:

But it is the semi tanky knight/zerker mixers or celestial builds that are getting hit the hardest. A 10% dmg nerf to full zerker will result to a 20%+ to these types of builds. And they were used the most by power roamers, being a good mix of offense and defense. Now it will only be defense. Meaning their damage will be too kitten to kill people. So basically this patch will give use 3 options:
1) go full zerker and try to still kill your enemy before he kills you
2) go full tank and support and run in bigger groups to amplify the damage
3) go condi bunker

Everything in between with unfortunately not be worth it anymore.

What’s the math behind the bolded part? I’d like to see how you came to that conclusion.

Also, I cannot believe someone just took the CDI thread and spun it as a negative. A developer goes in deep with communication with the community to get a feel for what they want, and now that’s a problem because they have no ideas of their own.

Absolutely ridiculous.

PvP gets heavily balanced
PvE gets heavily balanced

WvW …….. whats that ? …….. ahhhhh, just copy paste our PvE dungeon balance for them.

sincerely,
Balance team

MarzAttakz.9608:

Furthermore, show me A SINGLE MMO that has introduced this “Collaborative Development Initiative”

EVE Online has a Council of Stellar Management.

BAITness.1083:

I am sick hearing people complain about this crit damage nerf. If sigils go to 100% proc like they were saying, with no shared CDs? Then all your precious builds will be more powerful than before. It seems to me this is only to stop the one shots I’ve been hearing about, and stopping those is a good thing.

The only true one shots were coming from warriors kill shot. If they were that concerned about one-shots, all they had to do was reduce kill shot by 10%. Full zerker thieves were not one shotting zerker targets.

This is a PvE balance that does not need to make it’s way into WvW. This “balance” is going to hurt certain classes considerably more in WvW than others. These classes actually need buffs to be more viable, not nerfs.

When you look at a max crit damage hit from a zerker build, vs a complete tanky bunker build, the crit hits would rarely go above 800 dmg; if they did, it wasn’t by much. Now these bunker targets can easily have over 20K hp’s.. so how exactly is reducing the crit damage in WvW helping balance things out? That same tanky target gets a crit in against you in zerker gear, will in fact do more than 800 damage.

How exactly does a bunker target score a higher crit against a zerker target whose stacked with crit? Yes their needs to be a balance change..

Juba.8406:

PvP gets heavily balanced
PvE gets heavily balanced

WvW …….. whats that ? …….. ahhhhh, just copy paste our PvE dungeon balance for them.

sincerely,
Balance team

/thread

When is the time they will finally split WvW from PvE?

Delete PvE gear from WvW and just let us use our skins. Change all skins to a WvW version and fix what is broken. Fix traits in WvW.

Grav.3568:

MarzAttakz.9608:

Furthermore, show me A SINGLE MMO that has introduced this “Collaborative Development Initiative”

EVE Online has a Council of Stellar Management.

Yes they have the CSM, elected by the players hence “fair” representation for high, low and nullsec interests and members are generally considered qualified to be there (look at the election campaigns they run beforehand). Having played EVE for 4 years I’m aware of how it operated, slipped my mind, thanks for the correction.

Players take WvW much more seriously than Arenanet do. So for them it’s a part of their job of keeping people playing Guild Wars 2 (whichever sub-game). Do they care? Of course – but to them it’s not the serious business many players think it is.

I’d just like to add that there is very little no merchandise aimed solely at WvW, so why should Anet focus specifically on polishing it when their money comes from all aspects.

Juba.8406:

incoming Crit Damage nerf is because a PvE issue

Crit Damage nerf is not going to PvP, because its balanced there, says the dev.

Crit Damage nerf is going to WvW because ………………………….. ?

Do they care for WvW?
Some think so, they are working on a WvW overflow map for what has been told., very wise choice….right?

If they change the crit damage, they must rework almost all skills, if not this game will be a fest of unbalancement more than it is now (ive seen warrior holding like 5-8 player with good damage build and contidions, hitting and hp still regens and hit like a truck and remove condition at ease, same goes for other 2 classes that got this very good mechanics, necro and engi).
The best choices are not nerf this or buff that, gw2 skills design was made to be a simple way for balance but so far as proven the other way, more changes they made more inbalance the game is, the ebst solution would be to rework all classes to work with any kind of stats armor and having multiple roles, not what is hapening where almost every one use the same build and weapon sets.

Mechanics wise game inst anything that special.

Care for WvW? They closed the matchup forums, of course they care!

condition-bunkers already gets reduced damage because they have almost maxed toughness in their build which reduces Power build damage.

yet Power builds toughness is ignored for conditions.

I remember 3 bigger updates to WvW:

1. Culling Fix – Actually a bugfix update which made WvW even playable.
2. Ruins – New content but flawed mechanics + no personal rewards. To me as a solo roamer, it was a big epic fail. Nobody really cares about the ruins and you barely find anyone in those areas.
3. Season 1 – No real contents, just carrots on sticks for those who bother about achievement points.

During the same time:
1. A gazillion content updates for PVE
2. New maps for sPVP.

tl;dr The answer is NO, Anet doesnt care at all about WvW.

Its a shame…

I love WvW but you do tend to feel its PvE no1, esports PvP no2 and that’s it.

WvW even through loads of GW2 players love it and has huge guilds dedicated to it, Anet view it as a after thought…

Funny to see people saying stuff like “this change was needed”, then reading Necro in their sig…But seriously, all this will do is put a HUGE kitten spotlight on Condi builds so they will be next to get that nerf stick.

I would rather get one-shotted by a glass zerker thief that atleast has to give something up than a bunker condi war/necro/engi/etc. These bunker-condis really give up nothing short of power, which isn’t really needed anyway as they can spam conditions faster than they can typically be cleansed by most classes. ( I have tried a few of the builds myself and they are ridiculously easy to play and have few weaknesses)

Let me ask you this: How many people out there are building specifically for power negation? Now how many people are building specifically to overcome the condi spam garbage? (Hint: look at the price of Melandru Runes and Lemongrass Poultry Soup)

King Amadaeus.8619:

Funny to see people saying stuff like “this change was needed”, then reading Necro in their sig…But seriously, all this will do is put a HUGE kitten spotlight on Condi builds so they will be next to get that nerf stick.

I would rather get one-shotted by a glass zerker thief that atleast has to give something up than a bunker condi war/necro/engi/etc. These bunker-condis really give up nothing short of power, which isn’t really needed anyway as they can spam conditions faster than they can typically be cleansed by most classes. ( I have tried a few of the builds myself and they are ridiculously easy to play and have few weaknesses)

Let me ask you this: How many people out there are building specifically for power negation? Now how many people are building specifically to overcome the condi spam garbage? (Hint: look at the price of Melandru Runes and Lemongrass Poultry Soup)

How many WvWers are building for power negation, or more specifically, Toughness? Oh I don’t know, most?

How many people are building to overcome condi spam? From my experience, not many. Even condi-heavy builds often can’t deal with condis because they waste all of their traits/utilities on their condi output. Melandru runes help, but even having toughness against direct damage, you need to take things into account with utilities and approach as well. Lemongrass soup helps, but the thing about the 40% condi duration food (+ and -) is that you get a whole hell of a lot more bang for your buck, even as classes who use conditions for control. If there was 40% crit damage food, or 400 power food, maybe people wouldn’t go for the 40% condi duration food all the time.

And why do you think it would be balanced to be able to cleanse conditions as fast as they can be applied? You’re supposed to cleanse conditions at the right times, just like you’re supposed to dodge direct damage at the right times. You can also dodge conditions by dodging the ability that applies them.

You see conditions work so well because often people do nothing to dodge them, then do nothing to cleanse them. Then they call them imbalanced, or say they are “spammed mindlessly” or something along those lines. Blows my mind.

Cogbyrn.7283:

And why do you think it would be balanced to be able to cleanse conditions as fast as they can be applied? You’re supposed to cleanse conditions at the right times, just like you’re supposed to dodge direct damage at the right times. You can also dodge conditions by dodging the ability that applies them.

You see conditions work so well because often people do nothing to dodge them, then do nothing to cleanse them. Then they call them imbalanced, or say they are “spammed mindlessly” or something along those lines. Blows my mind.

So you are saying there should be some “skill” displayed as to when to cleanse condis, but not when to apply them? GG necro.

pulupulu.9730:

Only thieves should be complaining, since they got another big nerf, and can’t fit any other role aside those “highly specialized role” (thou they don’t need much protection… because they are already dead! haha? not funny? darn)

pulupulu.9730:

i am just saying the emotion is uncalled for when nothing for wvw has changed. Aside thieves. Thieves probably… should change class… I know I did.

wtf, my whole guild is based on thieves.
What is ANET thinking on? A change based in PvE performance can not be allocated in WVW.
You can not talk about balance if you decrease the whole crit efectivity when each class relies on different stats. It is impossible that a 10% change will affect the same to a necro or a warrior than to a thief…
This is crazy.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

King Amadaeus.8619:

Cogbyrn.7283:

And why do you think it would be balanced to be able to cleanse conditions as fast as they can be applied? You’re supposed to cleanse conditions at the right times, just like you’re supposed to dodge direct damage at the right times. You can also dodge conditions by dodging the ability that applies them.

You see conditions work so well because often people do nothing to dodge them, then do nothing to cleanse them. Then they call them imbalanced, or say they are “spammed mindlessly” or something along those lines. Blows my mind.

So you are saying there should be some “skill” displayed as to when to cleanse condis, but not when to apply them? GG necro.

I’m going to give you one more chance to understand, but as of now I don’t think you’re reading what people are saying, just cherry-picking comments as excuses to remain bitter.

What skill is displayed as to when to apply direct damage? What skill is displayed as to when to avoid direct damage? Do you just spam direct damage all the time, but you have to know what specifically to avoid with limited avoidance abilities in order to minimize damage taken?

What skill is displayed as to when to apply conditions? What skill is displayed as to when to avoid/cleanse conditions? Do you just spam conditions all the time, but you have to know what specifically to avoid with limited avoidance abilities, and when specifically to cleanse with limited cleans abilities, to minimize damage taken?

If you let a Warrior Bull’s Charge, 100B, Earthshaker, Backbreaker, Staggering Blow, and hammer auto you, do you come to the forums and complain about direct damage spam and how mindless it is?

Or do you do something about it?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe they do care about WvW, and that’s why they are making this change. Who here has stopped to consider the possibility that he/she is wrong, and the crit damage change is warranted? If you haven’t, even for a second, then you need to step back and try.

Sure I’ll try.

Roaming around on my staff ele. I see a warrior doing the same. We decide to fight. I can’t out damage his passive healing. He is 100% impossible to kill for my staff ele. My staff eles damage is getting nerfed.

Ok I tried. This nerf is stupid

Ozoug.4158:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe they do care about WvW, and that’s why they are making this change. Who here has stopped to consider the possibility that he/she is wrong, and the crit damage change is warranted? If you haven’t, even for a second, then you need to step back and try.

Sure I’ll try.

Roaming around on my staff ele. I see a warrior doing the same. We decide to fight. I can’t out damage his passive healing. He is 100% impossible to kill for my staff ele. My staff eles damage is getting nerfed.

Ok I tried. This nerf is stupid

I’ve literally only seen 1 staff ele roaming alone in my roam adventures, and that person acknowledged that staff wasn’t really a very good 1v1 weapon for Eles.

Do you think they balance the game around Staff Ele vs. Warrior roaming 1v1? Is there anything you can do about the crit damage nerf to accommodate the match-up, considering they’re nerfing Healing Signet by 8% as well? Is a 1v1 match-up strictly about DPS vs. HPS? Can the Warrior kill you, and if so, are you assuming an optimal Warrior build that counters you?

Is that really objective? I don’t think you tried very hard.

Cogbyrn.7283:

King Amadaeus.8619:

Cogbyrn.7283:

And why do you think it would be balanced to be able to cleanse conditions as fast as they can be applied? You’re supposed to cleanse conditions at the right times, just like you’re supposed to dodge direct damage at the right times. You can also dodge conditions by dodging the ability that applies them.

You see conditions work so well because often people do nothing to dodge them, then do nothing to cleanse them. Then they call them imbalanced, or say they are “spammed mindlessly” or something along those lines. Blows my mind.

So you are saying there should be some “skill” displayed as to when to cleanse condis, but not when to apply them? GG necro.

I’m going to give you one more chance to understand, but as of now I don’t think you’re reading what people are saying, just cherry-picking comments as excuses to remain bitter.

What skill is displayed as to when to apply direct damage? What skill is displayed as to when to avoid direct damage? Do you just spam direct damage all the time, but you have to know what specifically to avoid with limited avoidance abilities in order to minimize damage taken?

What skill is displayed as to when to apply conditions? What skill is displayed as to when to avoid/cleanse conditions? Do you just spam conditions all the time, but you have to know what specifically to avoid with limited avoidance abilities, and when specifically to cleanse with limited cleans abilities, to minimize damage taken?

If you let a Warrior Bull’s Charge, 100B, Earthshaker, Backbreaker, Staggering Blow, and hammer auto you, do you come to the forums and complain about direct damage spam and how mindless it is?

Or do you do something about it?

As a person that plays every class, I can tell you there are far more ways to avoid base physical damage (the kind you are describing) than there are condition cleanses on average.

Sure you need skill to know when to use a cleanse, but that is really because of access/cooldowns related to those skills. Short of a couple of skills you really don’t need a ton of skill to apply conditions, it really is closer to mindless spam than it is skill-based play. Or perhaps, let me say it in a way that even you can understand since you think you are smarter than everyone else:

Mindlessly spamming conditions is not in large part different to playing conditions “well”. Both are essentially the same: if conditions are cleansed, just reapply. Whereas the person doing the cleansing is on a 30-40sec CD most likely. Also you can in large part choose which condis to apply, whereas the cleanser is cleansing them in a “received” order.

I am not bitter about conditions friend, in fact I run some condi builds, and I have tried the metas….I am saying they are ridiculously broken because they simply are.

I am sorry friend, but if you think that in a 1v1 the cleanser has just as much in his kitten nal as the “applier” then all I can say is:

GG Necro

Cogbyrn.7283:

Ozoug.4158:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe they do care about WvW, and that’s why they are making this change. Who here has stopped to consider the possibility that he/she is wrong, and the crit damage change is warranted? If you haven’t, even for a second, then you need to step back and try.

Sure I’ll try.

Roaming around on my staff ele. I see a warrior doing the same. We decide to fight. I can’t out damage his passive healing. He is 100% impossible to kill for my staff ele. My staff eles damage is getting nerfed.

Ok I tried. This nerf is stupid

I’ve literally only seen 1 staff ele roaming alone in my roam adventures, and that person acknowledged that staff wasn’t really a very good 1v1 weapon for Eles.

Do you think they balance the game around Staff Ele vs. Warrior roaming 1v1? Is there anything you can do about the crit damage nerf to accommodate the match-up, considering they’re nerfing Healing Signet by 8% as well? Is a 1v1 match-up strictly about DPS vs. HPS? Can the Warrior kill you, and if so, are you assuming an optimal Warrior build that counters you?

Is that really objective? I don’t think you tried very hard.

All I can go on is my experience. That’s how I play. The warrior can kill me if I try to kill him. IE cast auto attacks. If I run around and only cast ground targets then there’s a good chance of me not dieing, unless I get caught by his CC somehow. But then there’s also a 100% chance of him not dieing if I play like that.

Realistically the only chance I have of killing a warrior is if he just stands in my fields, and lets me cast literally everything on him for like 15 seconds. So unless that happens I don’t do enough damage to kill a warrior.

Will you try to be objective and look at it from my point of view?

My ele can not do enough damage to kill a warrior. Now my damage is getting nerfed.
See where I am coming from?

@Ozoug: I see where you are coming from, but if a Warrior used Healing Surge, would it be any different? Can you kill Guardians? Can you kill Thieves? Can you kill Mesmers? What can you kill, how can you kill it, and why doesn’t that apply to fighting Warriors?

They’re also reducing Healing Signet’s heal by 8% (don’t tell me that isn’t significant if we’re complaining about 10% loss in damage), so odds are the gap doesn’t widen. You also get an additional sigil to play with on your staff, and maybe some other changes will hit that might help as well.

Dropping AoEs isn’t exactly very 1v1 friendly, and I don’t think it ever will be. If you absolutely love Staff Ele, and you absolutely love 1v1s/roaming, that’s fine. However, I feel like you should be able to recognize that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage already. I doubt a Staff Ele could kill me as a Powermancer, either.

Should they balance around a Staff Ele’s ability to kill a Warrior?

@King: I appreciate the more thorough response, but you act like condition application cannot be blocked/invuln’d/evaded like direct damage. Can you acknowledge that every way to avoid direct damage is applicable to avoiding conditions, except in very special circumstances (like unblockable abilities)?

Let’s take Necros, since you like to call GG Necro.

Grasping Dead: 3/4ths second cast time, readable animation.
Enfeebling Blood: 3/4ths second cast time + time it takes for the AoE to drop, readable animation.
Dark Path: 3/4ths second cast time, the only dark hand projectile from Death Shroud. Fairly slow-moving, but unblockable.
Locust Swarm: 1/2 second cast time, readable projectile.
Signet of Spite: 3/4ths second cast time, signet appears above Necro’s head. There’s no other signet that makes sense for them to use that you could see above their head, so you don’t have to see the drawing on it to know it’s Spite for dodging.

Marks are a bit of a special case, as even though they all have 3/4ths cast time, the tell is difficult to see (unless it’s Reaper’s Mark, which is completely unique). You can also trait marks to be Unblockable, but that’s 20 points into Death Magic, which your condition builds are most likely not dipping into.

So given that these abilities can generally be blocked(most)/evaded(all)/invuln’d(all), from an application perspective, is defending against them any different than defending against direct damage? Other than the fact that you can potentially wipe them later.

I don’t even run conditions, but I went through a “conditions need a change” period, and realized that I didn’t actually think that once I took another look. I do think condition builds gain a bit too much from Dire gear, more than Power builds often gain from PVT gear, but that’s an itemization issue, not a Conditions issue.

Full berserker builds like thieves, warrior, guardians (though they are rare), LB ranger (even though they are bad, its still rediculous how hard the AA hits if they get left alone) all hit way too hard – hitting over 10k should not be a thing, 1-2 shotting people should not be a thing.

I think this nerf is 100% justified and good for the game.

Are condition bunkers a problem to? Should they be nerfed to? Probably, but thats a different issue and doesnt change the fact that this is a good change.

IMO^^

“@Ozoug: I see where you are coming from, but if a Warrior used Healing Surge, would it be any different? Can you kill Guardians? Can you kill Thieves? Can you kill Mesmers? What can you kill, how can you kill it, and why doesn’t that apply to fighting Warriors?

They’re also reducing Healing Signet’s heal by 8% (don’t tell me that isn’t significant if we’re complaining about 10% loss in damage), so odds are the gap doesn’t widen. You also get an additional sigil to play with on your staff, and maybe some other changes will hit that might help as well.

Dropping AoEs isn’t exactly very 1v1 friendly, and I don’t think it ever will be. If you absolutely love Staff Ele, and you absolutely love 1v1s/roaming, that’s fine. However, I feel like you should be able to recognize that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage already. I doubt a Staff Ele could kill me as a Powermancer, either.

Should they balance around a Staff Ele’s ability to kill a Warrior?"

If the warrior ran surge it wouldn’t make a difference. They would still heal up before I could do enough damage to kill them. I can’t kill a Mesmer, guardian, thief, engineer, warrior. The best case scenario is a stalemate. Ranger and Necros I can sometimes pull off a 5 minute fight and get the victory. Other classes though if the other person has any brains at all there is 0% chance of winning the fight. Because my damage is just to low. Now my damage is getting nerfed.

I don’t think they should balance the game around staff ele vs warrior 1v1, but I do think it should be balanced. Reducing crit damage isn’t the way to balance it. Reducing the damage I do is only kittenting on an already pretty kittenty 1-1 class

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Ozoug: I see where you are coming from, but if a Warrior used Healing Surge, would it be any different? Can you kill Guardians? Can you kill Thieves? Can you kill Mesmers? What can you kill, how can you kill it, and why doesn’t that apply to fighting Warriors?

They’re also reducing Healing Signet’s heal by 8% (don’t tell me that isn’t significant if we’re complaining about 10% loss in damage), so odds are the gap doesn’t widen. You also get an additional sigil to play with on your staff, and maybe some other changes will hit that might help as well.

Dropping AoEs isn’t exactly very 1v1 friendly, and I don’t think it ever will be. If you absolutely love Staff Ele, and you absolutely love 1v1s/roaming, that’s fine. However, I feel like you should be able to recognize that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage already. I doubt a Staff Ele could kill me as a Powermancer, either.

Should they balance around a Staff Ele’s ability to kill a Warrior?

@King: I appreciate the more thorough response, but you act like condition application cannot be blocked/invuln’d/evaded like direct damage. Can you acknowledge that every way to avoid direct damage is applicable to avoiding conditions, except in very special circumstances (like unblockable abilities)?

Let’s take Necros, since you like to call GG Necro.

Grasping Dead: 3/4ths second cast time, readable animation.
Enfeebling Blood: 3/4ths second cast time + time it takes for the AoE to drop, readable animation.
Dark Path: 3/4ths second cast time, the only dark hand projectile from Death Shroud. Fairly slow-moving, but unblockable.
Locust Swarm: 1/2 second cast time, readable projectile.
Signet of Spite: 3/4ths second cast time, signet appears above Necro’s head. There’s no other signet that makes sense for them to use that you could see above their head, so you don’t have to see the drawing on it to know it’s Spite for dodging.

Marks are a bit of a special case, as even though they all have 3/4ths cast time, the tell is difficult to see (unless it’s Reaper’s Mark, which is completely unique). You can also trait marks to be Unblockable, but that’s 20 points into Death Magic, which your condition builds are most likely not dipping into.

So given that these abilities can generally be blocked(most)/evaded(all)/invuln’d(all), from an application perspective, is defending against them any different than defending against direct damage? Other than the fact that you can potentially wipe them later.

I don’t even run conditions, but I went through a “conditions need a change” period, and realized that I didn’t actually think that once I took another look. I do think condition builds gain a bit too much from Dire gear, more than Power builds often gain from PVT gear, but that’s an itemization issue, not a Conditions issue.

You make good points, and yes you do have the ability to negate condi attacks just as physical ones, but I think that many people (myself included) are taking issue with is that they are nerfing (extent is debatable) zerker dmg output, when said zerker was already giving something up (armor for instance) to get said dmg output.

Whereas condi builds tend to give up base power dmg, but get just as much (arguably more on certain builds) back in the condition dmg. While gaining toughness and in some cases healing power (depending on build/class).

So my original point was and is: why is there any need (beyond personal preference/playstyle) to run a DPS spec now given the impending “nerf”, when the current meta-bunker-condi is not losing anything?

Cufufalating.8479:

Full berserker builds like thieves, warrior, guardians (though they are rare), LB ranger (even though they are bad, its still rediculous how hard the AA hits if they get left alone) all hit way too hard – hitting over 10k should not be a thing, 1-2 shotting people should not be a thing.

I think this nerf is 100% justified and good for the game.

Are condition bunkers a problem to? Should they be nerfed to? Probably, but thats a different issue and doesnt change the fact that this is a good change.

IMO^^

I get that, but I also think you need to take a serious look into just how much dmg output a full condi build puts out. (poison/bleedstacks/torment/burning for example)

Juba.8406:

incoming Crit Damage nerf is because a PvE issue

Crit Damage nerf is not going to PvP, because its balanced there, says the dev.

Crit Damage nerf is going to WvW because ………………………….. ?

I disagree.

Hammertrains are exclusively a WvW issue, and this is a small step #2 in the right direction vs. hammertrains (with the step 1 done on Dec 10th 2013). Many of the hammertrain builds such as full valk / cav, 0 precision and max crit dmg with sup sigil of inteligence are way out of scale. That is not the only build, I have tried several cheese builds on my war and my guard.

They HAVE TO reduce hammertrain damage or control ability, not individual players, but the entire train.

Note: Hammertrains contain not just hammers. GS guards for pulls, necros for strips, sword wars for immob spam. You have to balance the entire trains containing these and other elements, not just the hammer weapons or wielders themselves.

Hammertrains are nearly immune to conditions. If anyone plays anything condi vs a hammertrain, then they will know you are lucky if your 1st tick ticks on all the targets you hit, and you are overjoyed if by some weird chance you get the 2nd tick.

Therefore, nerfing condi is useless with exception of a few individual cheese builds such as perplexity wariors (yes I have tried it, its total cheese).

What the game really needs is condi cleansing balance. Reduce group cleansing, up individual cleansing. Doesn’t need much, just maybe 10% in each direction, and everything will balance itself. Condi build counterplay will become stronger in 1 v 1 and small group, while large group there may be more times when condis actually get to the 2nd tick, how amazing that would be ?

I am hearing roughly 10% reduced overall crit damage??? If that’s right it doesn’t sound like such a big deal. Actually a good thing the more I think about it.

But condi bunker does need to be reworked. Too strong 1v1, too weak in large fights. What Tongku said – there’s too much group cleansing and not enough individual.

Solstice.1097:

I am hearing roughly 10% reduced overall crit damage??? If that’s right it doesn’t sound like such a big deal. Actually a good thing the more I think about it.

But condi bunker does need to be reworked. Too strong 1v1, too weak in large fights. What Tongku said – there’s too much group cleansing and not enough individual.

Agreed. Don’t get me wrong either, I personally do not think it will be that big of a deal once it all is said and done. Warriors will still be getting ridiculous kill shots, and thieves silly backstab numbers….But tons of people have had an issue with the condi meta for quite a while, and this is just a slap in the face to those people. But since it doesn’t really affect the average zergling (because condis don’t hit them like they do roamers/small groups), then it doesn’t take a high profile platform.

FYI: I am over the PVE argument, I could care less if they wanna nerf dmg to robots, but there is no reason (beyond laziness) that PVE nerfs have to be tied to WvW.