Guild Wars 2

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

EDIT: Why are you people talking about sPvP? It still has a downed state o.o

Go play sPvP, then.

You understand WHY there is a downed state, right? It’s because there are no healers. Downed state = someone healing you. If there was no downed state, then there would need to be much better healing implemented. Then the side with more Elementalists/Engineers would win, instead of the current side with more numbers in general wins. If that’s what you call “skill” then so be it.

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

What the person above me said, go to sPvP.

But do not forget this game is still very new and this type of game play/style is a lot different compared to GW1. Overtime the game will just get better along with mechanics in WvW/sPvP. Just give them some time to get their ducks in a row.

You can’t expect to have everything fixed in a blink of an eye.

Downstate is fine as it is.

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

While numbers do make a major difference, you need to revise your definition of “skill” if you’re talking WvW (you do know this is the WvW forum, right?) The dominant skills in WvW are the team strategies and tactics that it requires to take, fortify, and defend objectives. If you don’t believe that you’re on the wrong server, or more likely, on the wrong playground. It sounds like maybe you belong in sPvP.

As long as killing a grey mob stops counting for rezzes, downed state is fine

What? You guys dont make sense.

“go play spvp”
If i fight 5 people in spvp and 1 dies, assuming the 4 other ppl are “smart”, im not gonna be able to stomp the 1 I just killed.

“ele/engineer would win, not the side with more numbers”
Exactly. You win with numbers, not skill, reinforcing OP’s point. And Ele? Eng? Say what??

“wvw is about team tactics and strategies”
Yes, but none of those of strategies should revolve around rezing someone in a downstate…

If I can kill 5+ people by myself, then let me do it. I shouldnt be hoping that the players are dumb/ignoring their downed teammates for me to win.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been rezed from killing a moose or something in WvW. Hilarity.

Looks at OP past posts…..

Ahh…..
Keeps on walking

Edit: like to add to this post and i have not once had a problem with downed state…and I usually solo/duo zergs, not that hard to stomp players whilst the rest are standing in my ring of fire….dying.

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers…

As much as people say they want this, they don’t understand how bad it’d be for WvW. There is nothing wrong with largescale PvP being numbers-reliant. WvW is not about an elite squad holding the gates against hundreds of noobs, nor should it be.

Threads keep popping up on how to “solve” the zerg, as if there’s something wrong with concentrating your forces to achieve objectives.

The simpler answer is this: If you want a game where skill is supposed to prevail over numbers and you don’t want to learn mechanics like the downed state, GW2 isn’t the game for you.

Tulisin.6945:

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers…

As much as people say they want this, they don’t understand how bad it’d be for WvW. There is nothing wrong with largescale PvP being numbers-reliant. WvW is not about an elite squad holding the gates against hundreds of noobs, nor should it be.

It wouldn’t be bad for WvW, It would improve it alot. I think lots of people would actually come back if the downed state was no longer an issue.

It’s getting worse as more people know now how to abuse this mechanic , you fight outnumbered now and as soon as you down anyone they all run over to res them up in like 1 second, you have no chance of a stomp, that’s how it is currently in Tier 4 I am sure it will slowly work its way down to the other tiers.

From a mechanics perspective, the downed state is legitimate. It does two things:

1. Adds an additional tactical layer to PvP (all forms) that basically focuses on it.

2. Creates a domino + zone control aspect to large scale PvP.

The issues with the downed state center on:

1. The snowball in WvW. Tbh, the zone control aspect is cool, but it’s a pain in the kitten because it promotes zerging.

2. Un-fun. Really, when people die they should die. The added tactical complexity of stomping and “killing someone who’s already dead” is nice and all, but it’s more frustrating than anything.

At the least, the downed state for all classes should be significantly more normalized than they currently are. In addition, the abilities should be very limited and traits augmenting the downed state should be removed.

There is so much good gameplay involved in the actual combat. The “combat after combat is resolved” takes away from the experience.

WvW is not about an elite squad holding the gates against hundreds of noobs, nor should it be.

Yes, it is. Or at least, that’s what players want it to be.

The reality of PvP formats like WvW will always be “ZERG WINS”. However, this assumes an even playing field.

One of the largest points of FUN in formats like WvW is the potential, the possibility for a 6-man to beat 24. For an 8 man to kill 120.

This potential is severely diminished in GW2 for a variety of reasons, and the downed state mechanic is one of those. It also pisses off players for other reasons (revive on random mob kill), so it is easy to point to and beat to death.

I would rather keep the downed state and remove the ‘finish him’ option instead. That makes it far more difficult for some classes to survive being downed than others.

I would really like to see the aoe cap removed – i think this is a much bigger issue then downed state, even though if downstate sometimes is annoying. Especially when you downed a whole group of people and a random firefly or whatever dies and all get back up….

As it is now though, i think AoE cap is what makes it close to impossible for a small number of people to actually do anything to a significanlty bigger group.

Edit: Or atleast make the cap way higher. I can see the point of lag reducing, but if its capped at 5 that means its pretty much just a balancing thing, that doesnt work. And for the record I play a warrior with no aoe what so ever.

I think downed state is okay, and it helps deal with the “no healers/no instant ressers” part of most MMOs (like the above posters mentioned). Health pools aren’t very big in this game, and it’s easy to reduce them quickly. (A good thief can do it in 1-2 seconds) A certain famous MMO has HP going over 200K at levels above 80. GW2 has HP in the 20K-30K range. Not much at all. So you need something to counteract the “2 second kill” factor.

There are ways to counter downed states. Invulnerable stomps, stealth stomps, stability stomps, and quickness stomps. That’s three different ways, and it takes just as much effort (you use an extra skill) as attempting to res the person.

There are also ways to quickly res enemies. Group res-ing (3 people can res a guy at initial downed state of 50% in more or less 1 second), quickness res-ing, and single player res in combination with Elixir R.

Finishing stomps should be kept as well. This is the counter to a person constantly getting back on his or her feet and rallying. It takes time. It takes effort to make it faster. But it is better (especially in 1v1) than just sitting there and poking the prone, bleeding guy with a stick and yelling “DIE, ALREADY!”

Hint: If someone is constantly stability stomping a friend, then find a way to remove the boon and THEN push him away. It takes quick thinking, but there are abilities, traits, and even sigils that take boons away.

Durian.5419:

Downed state = someone healing you.

No it doesn’t it means you are getting a second chance, healing comes from your 6 skill which everyone has.

Downed state is ok, and here to stay as its what Anet wants to promote teamplay, but what they do need, is to equalize downed state abilities between professions as well as equal access to skills that facilitate easy stomping.

WvW =/= skill. Really.. Again…Seriously…Casual play…Let it Go

sPvP isn’t a skills-based game either. It’s all about bunker builds and who can turtle on a point the longest.

This game is still very much about certain builds and team comps more so than actual skill.

I’m not really sure about the balance for downed states. #2 should usually be a stomp stopper, be it a pull, a push, a fear, or a teleport.

One interesting thing I’ve noticed is that when you push or pull a person doing a stomp, it’s not counted as an interrupt. That person can get up and instantly start the stomp all over again. Normal interrupts cause a delay in using that skill (5 seconds is what the wiki says, and that seems like what I’ve seen before).

The fact that they’re not interrupted makes the attack a little more lethal. I can’t say whether I’m for or against this, as different classes have different forms of stomp prevention (some more effective than others).

Maybe not remove downstate, but remove rezzing once your dead, just for WvW. It does no good to make tactical hits or to kill anyone if the zerg just turns around to res. Its already very quick to respawn and run back. This combined with anyone being able to almost insta res makes zerging the superior tactic.
Or how about only allowing to res a dead person if your out of combat?
Lets face it, if you have done the work to actually fully kill someone, it should mean something, right now the only impact is it takes just a bit longer for them to get picked up.

kidbs.8920:

sPvP isn’t a skills-based game either. It’s all about bunker builds and who can turtle on a point the longest.

This game is still very much about certain builds and team comps more so than actual skill.

Best just to play this game for fun, not competition, actual balance as far as an even playing field is borked nearly beyond repair.

Probably why WvW is more popular than sPVP.

It’s pretty bad when people regularly start attacking nearby mobs when they are starting to loose a fight. You actually have to turn and focus the mob down first or else you have to deal with a mob rally.

I’ve come to terms that downed is here to stay it just needs changes.

1. Same downed health in WvW as sPvP
2. Don’t allow in combat rez from full death.
3. Remove PvE rally in WvW
4. Each additional rezer beyond first should increase the rez speed by less and less.

Sporadicus.1028:

One interesting thing I’ve noticed is that when you push or pull a person doing a stomp, it’s not counted as an interrupt. That person can get up and instantly start the stomp all over again. Normal interrupts cause a delay in using that skill (5 seconds is what the wiki says, and that seems like what I’ve seen before).

That isn’t true for any interrupt I’ve ever used. A daze/knockdown/stun will stop the use of any skills for the duration of that interrupt, but they can immediately use any skills off cooldown when that effect expires.

I always find it funny when people say ‘go play spvp’ whenever anyone mentions skill on the wvw forum. It’s funny because as soon as someone says it, it tells me they’ve never actually done spvp, or they tried it and were horrible, and it gave them this impression of it being some super highly competitive environment.

dreztina.4820:

I always find it funny when people say ‘go play spvp’ whenever anyone mentions skill on the wvw forum. It’s funny because as soon as someone says it, it tells me they’ve never actually done spvp, or they tried it and were horrible, and it gave them this impression of it being some super highly competitive environment.

They mean paid, organized teams, not hotjoin obviously.

That’s the whole point of sPVP to draw in the competitive small group players.

“Structured PvP is a Player versus Player mode which allows competition on an even footing.”

Downed State is fine. What your trying to say is a) You think having your party focus fire on one guy is skill. or b)using typical MMO rouge style attacks is skill. The truth is that neither is a skill, and both are certainly not deep skills. You can do either of these options when there is a large amount of people around to a skilled player.

What the downed state does in these cases is negate shallow skills and gives all players a chance to still be in the fight. If your so called skill is to focuse fire someone and ignore all other aspects of play, the down state makes sure that your shallow skill goes un-rewarded.

Focus fire is not skill. It is still a good idea, but that alone is not skill. If you think it is, then yes, downed state is going to upset you. If you really value skill in video gaming, you should like the downed state as it negates shallow skills.

please save me the post how you will 1on1 me and show me your mad skillz, I am not claiming i am the best player here. I just respect real skill compared to shallow skills

Zeroumus.5402:

Downed State is fine. What your trying to say is a) You think having your party focus fire on one guy is skill. or b)using typical MMO rouge style attacks is skill. The truth is that neither is a skill, and both are certainly not deep skills. You can do either of these options when there is a large amount of people around to a skilled player.

What the downed state does in these cases is negate shallow skills and gives all players a chance to still be in the fight. If your so called skill is to focuse fire someone and ignore all other aspects of play, the down state makes sure that your shallow skill goes un-rewarded.

Focus fire is not skill. It is still a good idea, but that alone is not skill. If you think it is, then yes, downed state is going to upset you. If you really value skill in video gaming, you should like the downed state as it negates shallow skills.

please save me the post how you will 1on1 me and show me your mad skillz, I am not claiming i am the best player here. I just respect real skill compared to shallow skills

If someone is focusing you:

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

I am guessing you stand still and die and then get ressed back up and that’s your counter to it, which is why you like the downed state. Which only proves my point further that it doesn’t promote skillful gameplay… infact it does the opposite.

Cactus.2710:

Bunzy.8674:

If you want a game where skill prevails over numbers its time to get rid of or drastically change the downed state.

The cards are in your hands anet, I hope for your sake you play them right.

While numbers do make a major difference, you need to revise your definition of “skill” if you’re talking WvW (you do know this is the WvW forum, right?) The dominant skills in WvW are the team strategies and tactics that it requires to take, fortify, and defend objectives. If you don’t believe that you’re on the wrong server, or more likely, on the wrong playground. It sounds like maybe you belong in sPvP.

I spent 2 weeks trying to explain this to Bunzy and Magoooma server. ^

Raincrow.1840:

I spent 2 weeks trying to explain this Bunzy and Magoooma server. ^

Leave Maguuma out of this. We defend better than pretty much every server out there.

I don’t think the downed state should be removed but it definitely needs to be tweaked, as of right now you basically have to fight the same person twice. Fixing downstate will greatly increase the number of coordinated 10 man groups going to wipe 20-30man zergs.

1.) Players should have same amount of downed health as spvp or no armor, Guardians should not be able to outheal splash damage.

2.) Player’s shouldn’t be able to do damage while downed, at least not in wvw or spvp, getting hit for 1k every second by a downed player your trying to finish is dumb. At least it should be a 5 sec cooldown, players will still be able to rally from their fighting before they went down.

One for Fun would having the outman buff give us quickness on Finishing.

Down state is fine.

Rally system is the most kittening kitten kitten that was ever dreamed up over way too many bong hits at a dev team party.

Bunzy.8674:

Durian.5419:

Downed state = someone healing you.

No it doesn’t it means you are getting a second chance, healing comes from your 6 skill which everyone has.

No 6. healing skill doesn’t come close to dedicated healers in other games where you can just build a few lines of tanks with a group of dedicated healer which makes a keep/tower uncap’able. The downstate still compensates the lack of dedicated healing classes.

holska.4127:

Bunzy.8674:

Durian.5419:

Downed state = someone healing you.

No it doesn’t it means you are getting a second chance, healing comes from your 6 skill which everyone has.

No 6. healing skill doesn’t come close to dedicated healers in other games where you can just build a few lines of tanks with a group of dedicated healer which makes a keep/tower uncap’able. The downstate still compensates the lack of dedicated healing classes.

The whole idea in GW2 was to get rid of healers, It’s not meant to heal like other healers in other MMOs…It does enough to keep people alive.

Raincrow.1840:

And no, you don’t defend better than “pretty much every server out there”…. There are three tiers above you with servers who do everything better than you guys do.

Score and defending are completely opposite things. Some servers don’t even try to defend locations. They let it fall and recap the thing directly after. I can name 3 servers within T1-3 that are like that.

Bunzy.8674:

holska.4127:

Bunzy.8674:

Durian.5419:

Downed state = someone healing you.

No it doesn’t it means you are getting a second chance, healing comes from your 6 skill which everyone has.

No 6. healing skill doesn’t come close to dedicated healers in other games where you can just build a few lines of tanks with a group of dedicated healer which makes a keep/tower uncap’able. The downstate still compensates the lack of dedicated healing classes.

The whole idea in GW2 was to get rid of healers, It’s not meant to heal like other healers in other MMOs…It does enough to keep people alive.

If it weren’t there fights would be very short. Like healers in other games which makes the fights last longer, so does the downstate’s aditional healthbar besides adding another layer of gameplay (to avoid using the word tactic).
It’s easy to say the game was advertized to have no healing so there shouldn’t be anything like that. There still has to be some balance and the downstate provides more balance than it breaks if weighed out imo.

This thread has nothing to do with Maguuma or any server as a matter of fact, stop going off topic.

holska.4127:

Bunzy.8674:

holska.4127:

Bunzy.8674:

Durian.5419:

Downed state = someone healing you.

No it doesn’t it means you are getting a second chance, healing comes from your 6 skill which everyone has.

No 6. healing skill doesn’t come close to dedicated healers in other games where you can just build a few lines of tanks with a group of dedicated healer which makes a keep/tower uncap’able. The downstate still compensates the lack of dedicated healing classes.

The whole idea in GW2 was to get rid of healers, It’s not meant to heal like other healers in other MMOs…It does enough to keep people alive.

If it weren’t there fights would be very short. Like healers in other games which makes the fights last longer, so does the downstate’s aditional healthbar besides adding another layer of gameplay (to avoid using the word tactic).
It’s easy to say the game was advertized to have no healing so there shouldn’t be anything like that. There still has to be some balance and the downstate provides more balance than it breaks if weighed out imo.

The fights would be a similar length to what they are now, they would also encourage people to use their utilities and learn how to position better. I honestly can’t see a negative to getting rid of the downed state. I think it would improve the game drastically.

Rhyis.7058:

Raincrow.1840:

And no, you don’t defend better than “pretty much every server out there”…. There are three tiers above you with servers who do everything better than you guys do.

Score and defending are completely opposite things. Some servers don’t even try to defend locations. They let it fall and recap the thing directly after. I can name 3 servers within T1-3 that are like that.

Yeah, you’re right “some” T1-3 servers are bad at defense, my server is one of them. CD doesn’t defend well at all. However, there are servers above you that defend much better than you guys do. Likely some of the servers you would name as being bad are in reality better than Magoooma, but you guys see things through a biased lens in which your server is the most skilled WvW players in the game, and it’s simply not the case.

The major argument against the downed state is consistently: “Well, it doesn’t exist in other games and I don’t want to learn how to use it” rather than any actual imbalance within the mechanic itself. As soon as you stop seeing the downed state as something that is “getting in the way of how things should work” and more as an organic part of GW2 combat that you need to learn and manipulate, it stops being as much of an issue.

To use an example that has come up in the past: Nobody would make a thread saying “siege is broken and should be removed from the game”, because people can recognize siege as an organic part of how WvW works and integrate it into their playstyle. The same approach should be taken to the downed state.

I’m all for rebalancing the downed state and downed state skills, but asking for removal is more a statement of “I don’t want to learn this skill” than “it marginalizes my skill”.

Tulisin.6945:

The major argument against the downed state is consistently: “Well, it doesn’t exist in other games and I don’t want to learn how to use it” rather than any actual imbalance within the mechanic itself. As soon as you stop seeing the downed state as something that is “getting in the way of how things should work” and more as an organic part of GW2 combat that you need to learn and manipulate, it stops being as much of an issue.

To use an example that has come up in the past: Nobody would make a thread saying “siege is broken and should be removed from the game”, because people can recognize siege as an organic part of how WvW works and integrate it into their playstyle. The same approach should be taken to the downed state.

It’s not the mechanic that is bad its how it has been implemented.

Bunzy.8674:

This thread has nothing to do with Maguuma or any server as a matter of fact, stop going off topic.

Down state is fine. Skilled teams who know how to deal with it can use it to their advantage, even in smaller groups.

It just needs balance because some down skills are better than others.

Bunzy.8674:

It’s not the mechanic that is bad its how it has been implemented.

How do you propose to retain the mechanic as a significant part of GW2 combat, then? Your initial post called for drastic change or removal. The downed state as-is provides a decently deep meta and overall makes combat richer.

If you’ve got ideas, put ’em out there so the community can discuss their merits.

Bunzy.8674:

The fights would be a similar length to what they are now, they would also encourage people to use their utilities and learn how to position better. I honestly can’t see a negative to getting rid of the downed state. I think it would improve the game drastically.

The downed states also encourages people to use their utilities and other less used skills and buffs, and teaches them how to position better so they can prevent someone being revived. I personally don’t see how removing it would improve the game as all it does is remove a layer of gameplay that some like and some don’t but are part of the core gameplay.
But anyways I’m tired of discussing this topic in the umptiest thread about it that all ended about 50/50 opponents vs supporters of it.

How does adding another layer of game play mechanics make this game less about skills? A skilled player would know how to beat the downed state mechanic in every aspect, quickness rez, stability stop, blindness on stomper, knock-backs on downed state player, poison on downed state player, and everything else i cant think of right now.

The only thing that needs to be fixed is people getting rallied off of ANY npc in wvw, in my opinion that’s the only broken part about downed state.

Tulisin.6945:

The major argument against the downed state is consistently: “Well, it doesn’t exist in other games and I don’t want to learn how to use it” rather than any actual imbalance within the mechanic itself. As soon as you stop seeing the downed state as something that is “getting in the way of how things should work” and more as an organic part of GW2 combat that you need to learn and manipulate, it stops being as much of an issue.

To use an example that has come up in the past: Nobody would make a thread saying “siege is broken and should be removed from the game”, because people can recognize siege as an organic part of how WvW works and integrate it into their playstyle. The same approach should be taken to the downed state.

I’m all for rebalancing the downed state and downed state skills, but asking for removal is more a statement of “I don’t want to learn this skill” than “it marginalizes my skill”.

My argument is it prevents small groups from killing zergs, even if they outplay them. It’ simply not possible for a 5 man to whittle a 30 man down. It should be, especially if those 5 are highly coordinated and build around that.

Raincrow.1840:

Yeah, you’re right “some” T1-3 servers are bad at defense, my server is one of them. CD doesn’t defend well at all. However, there are servers above you that defend much better than you guys do. Likely some of the servers you would name as being bad are in reality better than Magoooma, but you guys see things through a biased lens in which your server is the most skilled WvW players in the game, and it’s simply not the case.

I just said we were good at a very very small portion of WvW. I didn’t say we were teh walking pwn on earth and everybody else is turrible . Why you felt the need to interject such a simple statement is beyond me.

You’re confusing this dudes extremely vocal 10 man guild, who’s been on our server for a grand total of 3 weeks, with the rest of the server who’ve been here since the beginning.

Bunzy.8674:

Zeroumus.5402:

Downed State is fine. What your trying to say is a) You think having your party focus fire on one guy is skill. or b)using typical MMO rouge style attacks is skill. The truth is that neither is a skill, and both are certainly not deep skills. You can do either of these options when there is a large amount of people around to a skilled player.

What the downed state does in these cases is negate shallow skills and gives all players a chance to still be in the fight. If your so called skill is to focuse fire someone and ignore all other aspects of play, the down state makes sure that your shallow skill goes un-rewarded.

Focus fire is not skill. It is still a good idea, but that alone is not skill. If you think it is, then yes, downed state is going to upset you. If you really value skill in video gaming, you should like the downed state as it negates shallow skills.

please save me the post how you will 1on1 me and show me your mad skillz, I am not claiming i am the best player here. I just respect real skill compared to shallow skills

If someone is focusing you:

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

I am guessing you stand still and die and then get ressed back up and that’s your counter to it, which is why you like the downed state. Which only proves my point further that it doesn’t promote skillful gameplay… infact it does the opposite.

you kinda of got the wrong idea right off the hop with “If someone is focusing you:” when what i meant was having a group focus one you. it sounds like you are talking about 1on1’s, but if that was the case the downstate should not be a problem in this situation.

-

I come from the school where skill is defined by how you make your your enemy choose the reaction you want them to pick, not by the reactions themselves. Not even by the reactions you make. moving out of the line of fire, running back to your team mates does not mean you have skills, so none of this is even relevent to skill;

If someone is focusing you…..

Move out their range – They will be forced to switch or chase you.
If they switch you can heal up and come back into the fight.
If they chase you the rest of your team will kill them.

….. this is the natural reactions every player has to being attacked if they feel out matched.

The downed state serves to give no reward to shallow skills such as zerging someone. Shallow being defined as asking your group to press “t” on the keyboard before attacking some mystery target you might not be able to see in the zerg. I know i might hurt the feelings of the people who think doing this means their group has skill, but I am just telling it like it is.

I’m curious why no one has called out a D/D ele for talking about skills in WvW…