Guild Wars 2

KillEveryoneElse.3940:

if you want to duel go to obsidian map and stop being dead weight in wvw

(and if you just stand by when someone from your team comes to help you, your worse than dead weight, your a tumour that needs removing from the GW2 “community”).

“You’re”

And you’re being ridiculously hyperbolic about this. There are sometimes mutual rules agreed upon by duelers (some of us that duel often know them and nothing needs to be said usually). One of those sometimes-rules is that if someone interferes from your own side you can just let them be killed. Got a problem with it? Tough luck. It’s not against the rules.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

KillEveryoneElse.3940:

if you want to duel go to obsidian map and stop being dead weight in wvw

(and if you just stand by when someone from your team comes to help you, your worse than dead weight, your a tumour that needs removing from the GW2 “community”).

“You’re”

And you’re being ridiculously hyperbolic about this. There are sometimes mutual rules agreed upon by duelers (some of us that duel often know them and nothing needs to be said usually). One of those sometimes-rules is that if someone interferes from your own side you can just let them be killed. Got a problem with it? Tough luck. It’s not against the rules.

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

I never thought of it that way. Maybe I will help my worldmate next time. On the other hand, maybe my world mate will be capable of winning the 1v1, and in that case everybody is happy. And if he goes down, I try and prevent the stomp. But you certainly made me think about my behavior. Thank you.

Cufufalating.8479:

So you’re arguing in WvW should be free where people can do what they like, and then say it’s stupid when a person lets you res because it’s not what you would have done?

Flawless logic. Flawless.

This is what I call selective perception. And it is not the point I am making.

I agree that this part of my post was not worded very well (but it wasn’t the only thing I wrote, yet, many reply only to this part…). I should have left it out. What I am saying is that I get annoyed, when ppl get mad at me for interfering in duels, that happen around strategic locations.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

KillEveryoneElse.3940:

if you want to duel go to obsidian map and stop being dead weight in wvw

(and if you just stand by when someone from your team comes to help you, your worse than dead weight, your a tumour that needs removing from the GW2 “community”).

“You’re”

And you’re being ridiculously hyperbolic about this. There are sometimes mutual rules agreed upon by duelers (some of us that duel often know them and nothing needs to be said usually). One of those sometimes-rules is that if someone interferes from your own side you can just let them be killed. Got a problem with it? Tough luck. It’s not against the rules.

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

That is a very good point.

As someone who’s done a fair bit of dueling, it’s to be expected that you’ll get interrupted sometimes if you’re not doing it in the usual places. That said, if you come interrupt my duel, ignore me when I say it’s a duel, then get stomped by the other guy because you couldn’t take him 1v1, you have only yourself to blame. If you stop attacking, most of the time they will too.

TyPin.9860:

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

That is a very good point.

Not really, what is “moral” is subjective, this entire thread is a fine example, some people think the “moral” thing to do is not jump in on a 1v1, others apparently have different views on what is “moral”.

zinkz.7045:

TyPin.9860:

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

That is a very good point.

Not really, what is “moral” is subjective, this entire thread is a fine example, some people think the “moral” thing to do is not jump in on a 1v1, others apparently have different views on what is “moral”.

What is moral is subjective, but it pretty much defines our interaction with other human beings. I sometimes duel in WvW, and when an ally comes by and attack my opponent, I let the later kill him, and then continue my duel. The reason I’ve been doing that is that I didn’t think it was respectful for the player who wanted to duel me to kill him in a 2v1. But I realize now that letting an ally get killed because he was trying to help me is a bit of a Richard move. So there’s no way around it: be quick enough to warn your ally this is a duel, or try to rez him after he falls, but don’t blame him for wanting to help you out!

I think they have a right to be annoyed when dueling on the east wall of SMC. You see a group of players from all factions standing around while 2 fight and you run up and get involved? how brain dead does one need to be to not recognize it as a duel? that’s also an extremely common dueling location.

if it’s just two people fighting somewhere random i can understand interfering and they don’t really have a right to complain.

vespers.1759:

I think they have a right to be annoyed when dueling on the east wall of SMC. You see a group of players from all factions standing around while 2 fight and you run up and get involved? how brain dead does one need to be to not recognize it as a duel? that’s also an extremely common dueling location.

And how brain dead can people be to pick a location like that to host a bubble event such as this? What is wrong with you ppl?

I always use siege weapons if i see duel close tower/keep.

zinkz.7045:

TyPin.9860:

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

That is a very good point.

Not really, what is “moral” is subjective, this entire thread is a fine example, some people think the “moral” thing to do is not jump in on a 1v1, others apparently have different views on what is “moral”.

Saying something is subjective is in no way a valid argument to counter the idea proposed when I say ppl who often refer to “laws” or “lack of rules” very often know why they go for that card. In other words, they know it’s not really a defensible position but they are not ready to accept the opposing side argument so they fall back on rules or lack of rules rather than admit they are in their wrong.

The rational behind what is “moral” is supported by the wvw context: Server > Guild or You. The duel moral stand point is that you can play however you like because you have paid just as much as I did and there are no rules saying you can’t do so.

Sadly for the duelers (I am one), that argument is a logical fallacy in itself. WvW is a team game so pleading an individualistic POV is always going to be inherently weak. This is a fact. In a team, let’s say a hockey team, if 2 players decide to play with the puck while not giving a kitten about scoring they, not the rest of the team, are the problem. That there are no rules or penalties for fooling around with the puck changes nothing to the fact they are a problem considering the context.

It would be like two players messing around in a hockey game, if the matches went on 24/7 for a week, and one of the teams frequently had dozens or hundreds more players than the other team.

The nature of WvW means that it doesn’t matter if you’re walking around doing nothing, dueling, crafting, or what have you. The only time it makes a difference is if there’s a queue to get into the particular map you’re on, and even then it doesn’t make much difference.

Kaos.9162:

It would be like two players messing around in a hockey game, if the matches went on 24/7 for a week, and one of the teams frequently had dozens or hundreds more players than the other team.

The nature of WvW means that it doesn’t matter if you’re walking around doing nothing, dueling, crafting, or what have you. The only time it makes a difference is if there’s a queue to get into the particular map you’re on, and even then it doesn’t make much difference.

If it makes no difference that you play for PPT or not, the score wouldn’t reflect your investment. Of course, we both know this is BS.

That the matches are unfair is true but it hardly nullify the fact it’s a team context.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

vespers.1759:

I think they have a right to be annoyed when dueling on the east wall of SMC. You see a group of players from all factions standing around while 2 fight and you run up and get involved? how brain dead does one need to be to not recognize it as a duel? that’s also an extremely common dueling location.

And how brain dead can people be to pick a location like that to host a bubble event such as this? What is wrong with you ppl?

this is the guy that runs into duels and fights… gets ganked by the duelers,… comes back… gets ganked again and finally comes to forums and complains about the toxic duelers.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Saying something is subjective is in no way a valid argument to counter the idea proposed when I say ppl who often refer to “laws” or “lack of rules” very often know why they go for that card. In other words, they know it’s not really a defensible position but they are not ready to accept the opposing side argument so they fall back on rules or lack of rules rather than admit they are in their wrong.

They aren’t “wrong”, yet again you seem to be under this delusion that your subjective opinion on what is “valid” in WvW, is fact and therefore “true”, which I guess may be a reason why people go to the rules, because you can trade subjective opinions all day long, and it means nothing in the end, and it gets tedious trading opinions with someone who thinks their opinion is “fact”.

vespers.1759:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

vespers.1759:

I think they have a right to be annoyed when dueling on the east wall of SMC. You see a group of players from all factions standing around while 2 fight and you run up and get involved? how brain dead does one need to be to not recognize it as a duel? that’s also an extremely common dueling location.

And how brain dead can people be to pick a location like that to host a bubble event such as this? What is wrong with you ppl?

this is the guy that runs into duels and fights… gets ganked by the duelers,… comes back… gets ganked again and finally comes to forums and complains about the toxic duelers.

I fail to see your point and will also point out that what you say is plain stupid. How can duelers “ganked”? If you duel, you can’t ganked. At least it won’t be from the guy you duel.

Beside, I don’t see how myself being guilty of doing duels from time to time, a thing I have already admitted several times already (aren’t we slow on the uptake a bit), change even a coma of the argument I used.

Finally, I did not came here to complain. I saw a thread with a sorry amount of logical fallacies. A thread carrying an idea I have a long history of participating in btw. That I like to duel or not is utterly irrelevant to the fact most of my opponents in this thread, including you, are falling back on kittenty logic (AKA logical fallacies) to argue their side of the story.

Out of curiosity, were you part of that team of thieves that would appear out of nowhere in my back to simultaneously backstab my zerker staff ele? Too much skill for me… Must be very hard and risky to get such awesome results… Even 1 such thief is almost guarantee to win vs what I run when he start the fight non stealthed… let alone 3… if it was you, that was not a duel btw…

BTW, I don’t mind dying. It never stopped me from coming back again and again and again etc. I accept many duels I know before it starts I will most likely loose even if I make almost a flawless fight. You don’t get better by having it ez.

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Saying something is subjective is in no way a valid argument to counter the idea proposed when I say ppl who often refer to “laws” or “lack of rules” very often know why they go for that card. In other words, they know it’s not really a defensible position but they are not ready to accept the opposing side argument so they fall back on rules or lack of rules rather than admit they are in their wrong.

They aren’t “wrong”, yet again you seem to be under this delusion that your subjective opinion on what is “valid” in WvW, is fact and therefore “true”, which I guess may be a reason why people go to the rules, because you can trade subjective opinions all day long, and it means nothing in the end, and it gets tedious trading opinions with someone who thinks their opinion is “fact”.

If you actually care to read what I wrote I say my stance is better than yours because the arguments supporting it are better. Again, simply stating something is subjective is not a valid argument. Not all arguments, or opinions for that matter, are equally good.

The main fact my argument rest upon is that WvW is a Server based game. If you disagree with this let’s hear your argument… I’ll be waiting… Otherwise, good luck to you arguing your stance is more legitimate.

Nothing us funnier than seeing someone jump at the chance to gank an enemy to 2v1 them get destroyed as soon as I stop attacking. I have no sympathy for people who aren’t man enough to fight even numbered and still get stomped even when the enemy started the fight at half health. This isn’t even concerning duels, if someone jumps into my 1v1 I walk off immediately because the thrill of the fight is over as soon as I outnumber the opponent.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

If you actually care to read what I wrote I say my stance is better than yours because the arguments supporting it are better. Again, simply stating something is subjective is not a valid argument. Not all arguments, or opinions for that matter, are equally good.

The main fact my argument rest upon is that WvW is a Server based game. If you disagree with this let’s hear your argument… I’ll be waiting… Otherwise, good luck to you arguing your stance is more legitimate.

You haven’t made an argument, nothing you have written has any relevance to the point I quoted and the “morality” of letting a guy that interrupts a 1v1 die, you may think the “moral” thing to do is help him, I’d say he made his own bed when he interrupted the 1v1 rather than doing the moral thing of letting it finish, and that if he wants to interrupt my fun then he should not expect any help.

Hence why people go to the rules, we are never going to agree on what is “moral” as we have different views of the game and it is very subjective, so all we can agree on is that it is not against the rules.

Obsidian Sanctum has alot of places you can duel but no one duels in there………….

Impromptu duels are fun and yes I do understand when you duel near orange swords expect to be run over, but at the same time it’s just a game. They don’t have the right to rage at you, but do take their feelings into consideration. I mean, come on, why be hostile to your own team? A lot of people just don’t “duel”; we also do the wvw thing while looking to fight. A lot of people think roamers don’t contribute to the server because they’re off having their little dirty non-blob fights while that couldn’t be further from the truth. Business and pleasure, if you will.

Even if we’re talking about pee pee tee, the efficiency of interrupting a duel is generally not helping your server unless you are fighting on point. If you simply run past to check on dolyaks, siege, and scout as well as guarding camps, you would have earned many more points for your server in the long run as opposed to ganking some dueler that may give you a point or two of a bloodlust stomp but the opportunity cost is pretty bad considering the dead can just respawn and with nothing to do, take a camp or kill some sentries/dollies.

I mean it sure is going to be swell when your server loses a big fight when you could have joined the fray. Honestly, you’d be as useful as someone in spvp that fights off point.

But yea, this is a game, and no, you can’t decide what other people can do. So feel free to interrupt duels. But accept the consequences of your actions. I won’t complain if you join in, but no crying if it turns into a 1v1 because I may think “You got this, I’m more useful elsewhere.”

I’m also reminded of the time someone yelled at us for not 4v1’ing someone, lol.

zinkz.7045:

You haven’t made an argument, nothing you have written has any relevance to the point I quoted and the “morality” of letting a guy that interrupts a 1v1 die, you may think the “moral” thing to do is help him, I’d say he made his own bed when he interrupted the 1v1 rather than doing the moral thing of letting it finish, and that if he wants to interrupt my fun then he should not expect any help.

I’m sorry but for you to be in any position to say this you have to ignore the argument you pretend has no value about WvW being a server (team) context. Sadly, you are in no such position and WvW still is a server game that is won by people working in many different fashion to directly or indirectly score as much point as possible at each tick. Of course if we ignore the argument you say is worth nothing what you say has a lot more value…

Hence why people go to the rules, we are never going to agree on what is “moral” as we have different views of the game and it is very subjective, so all we can agree on is that it is not against the rules.

We don’t have to agree and it won’t make your stance any stronger by saying that. Your view of a game is only important up to a point. Wiggle as much as you want, it will still remain a server game won with PPT. When you stop fighting that evidence, it becomes a lot harder to sell the “my subjectivity is just as good as yours” line. It’s pretty much like saying there is no argument when there actually is one that you refuse to acknowledge. Closing your eyes won’t save you from a fist flying toward your face…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I’m sorry but for you to be in any position to say this you have to ignore the argument you pretend has no value about WvW being a server (team) context. Sadly, you are in no such position and WvW still is a server game that is won by people working in many different fashion to directly or indirectly score as much point as possible at each tick. Of course if we ignore the argument you say is worth nothing what you say has a lot more value…

LOL, repeating it like a mantra doesn’t alter that it has no relevance to what I wrote, if I decide to go off and do something else instead of assisting the guy who interrupted my 1v1, our server might score more points, it might score less, it might score the same, I might be the person to contest the circle and save a keep, and so on, your “argument” is irrelevant.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

We don’t have to agree and it won’t make your stance any stronger by saying that. Your view of a game is only important up to a point. Wiggle as much as you want, it will still remain a server game won with PPT. When you stop fighting that evidence, it becomes a lot harder to sell the “my subjectivity is just as good as yours” line. It’s pretty much like saying there is no argument when there actually is one that you refuse to acknowledge. Closing your eyes won’t save you from a fist flying toward your face…

You haven’t presented any evidence, PPT has nothing to do with it, you seem obsessed with PPT and try to make any thread into a “PPT issue”.

This is why people go to the rules, it is pointless arguing with people like you, I’d also add that you seem to have a severely limited understanding of game design if you think Anet made WvW just for PPT obsessives.

PPT is certainly a relevant thing but to be a slave to it just because it’s the only “objective metric”… Well, consider this.

A tower or camp can be recaptured, and matchups even if lost can be won again next week. And really, it’s just 2 chests more full of worthless greens. Is this worth getting angry at server mates for?

People lost though because they cannot agree on how to play this game, though, aren’t as easily recovered. It costs what? 200 gold to recruit a single person. That gold could have been used to play for 2/3rds of a new tag for a community member that’s willing to step up to the plate, or about 90 superior siege golem blueprints.

A community needs to be able to understand that different people play the game differently. Everyone from zergers to duelists can contribute to the server in their own way, so trying to enforce the “right way” is not getting the most out of your people.

Of course, I guess people scoot around this by throwing money at the problem. The same problem remains and naturally fingers are pointed at everyone but themselves. In the end, while I think respecting duels might not be the best play in the short run, but in the long run, to promote a more positive atmosphere, it is. But you can’t see any of this if you just stare at MOS. My own server has gone through like what? 3 implosions, and it’s due to this lack of respect. Sure, we were winning those matchups in the prime of those bandwagons, but in the long run, it was definitely making a lot of losing moves .

Edit: lol redundancy

Hexin.5603:

Don’t knock hooters wings … everything tastes better when served by scantilly clad women. Best wings NA

This is the most intelligent thing I’ve seen in this thread.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

KillEveryoneElse.3940:

if you want to duel go to obsidian map and stop being dead weight in wvw

(and if you just stand by when someone from your team comes to help you, your worse than dead weight, your a tumour that needs removing from the GW2 “community”).

“You’re”

And you’re being ridiculously hyperbolic about this. There are sometimes mutual rules agreed upon by duelers (some of us that duel often know them and nothing needs to be said usually). One of those sometimes-rules is that if someone interferes from your own side you can just let them be killed. Got a problem with it? Tough luck. It’s not against the rules.

Too often players playing the “legal” card do so because they know they can’t play the “moral” one. Watching your teammate get beaten because he sought to help you is putrid. That you have agreed on this (your teammate certainly did not), or that the rules say nothing about it change nothing.

You’re using morality as the basis for your argument and that’s where it falls flat because your morals don’t trump someone else’s. If there are no rules made by the people who run the game being broken, then the only ground you’re standing on here is “I don’t like it.” and that doesn’t go very far.

Personally, “playing it safe” when I see an even fight means either asking if they need help or reviving after the fight, if I get attacked when I’m just standing/jumping in the background then in I go, otherwise I risk ruining it for people who are having a nice time. That’s my outlook and as much as I’d like pile on ponies to tone it down, I’m not expecting or demanding it from others, I’ll just do what I do. See how that works? Your way isn’t the way, its just a way.

zinkz.7045:

LOL, repeating it like a mantra doesn’t alter that it has no relevance to what I wrote, if I decide to go off and do something else instead of assisting the guy who interrupted my 1v1, our server might score more points, it might score less, it might score the same, I might be the person to contest the circle and save a keep, and so on, your “argument” is irrelevant.

How can it have no relevance on your stance? Please explain it to me. The setting is team based, not individualistic. Let’s take a look at your stance…

you said: “you may think the “moral” thing to do is help him, I’d say he made his own bed when he interrupted the 1v1 rather than doing the moral thing of letting it finish”

So in short, we have helping a teammate vs respecting a possible duel.

I repeat, not because it’s a mantra or it will make it more or less valid but because you apparently are slow to get it, this is a team game context asking you to score points and preventing your opponent to do the same. As opposed to what you seem to allude, the context is very in understanding why the act of helping is more valid than the act of respecting a possible duel.

If you do a duel out of necessity because you are 2 players competing over an objective, seeing another player help you will never be a problem. Just ask yourself if your pal interrupting a duel goes against the spirit of the game being a team efforts seeking to score points? This is a rhetorical question of course since the obvious answer is not even a little.

OTOH, if your pal decide to respect your possible duel (not always obvious at all and you can’t always be in a position to communicate) is he showing he has the server’s best interest at heart considering the goal of that game? Nope. He places your interests before those of the server. It’s nice of him to you and it might not change a kitten thing in the end but that changes nothing to the argument.

The end result is not what matters in this philosophical argument we have. The intent is. Only you know if you duel because you are 2 players competing over a resource or if you do so in spite of the game. Yes, your not caring at all for the game may help the server as a side effect for some reasons you couldn’t care or be bothered with while someone who do care can end-up not helping the server (best example is to order upgrades at the wrong moment. The intent is noble, the result can be catastrophic). The difference lies in the intent and the good will of the players. Can we prove it? No and we can’t stop people from doing what the hell they want anyway. However, in a philosophical joust about fight > PPT (remember the thread), your stance is just way weaker than mine is the whole point because [insert what you call my mantra].

You haven’t presented any evidence, PPT has nothing to do with it, you seem obsessed with PPT and try to make any thread into a “PPT issue”.

This is why people go to the rules, it is pointless arguing with people like you, I’d alos add that you seem to have a severely limited understanding of game design if you think Anet made WvW just for PPT obsessives.

Of course I haven’t presented why helping your pal vs respecting your duels has more legitimacy, you said so!! Anet has pitted servers against servers and uses points as a metric to decide who is the winner but “I severely don’t understand the game design” because, again, you say so…

Also, I’m not PPT obsessive one bit. I’m, however, very tenacious when I argue. You just can’t seem to read what I say (remember, I also duel) and you kinda force me to repeat myself to no end because you can’t accept what I say.

Seriously, I’m done…

It is interesting how this discussion has evolved. From my original intended statement of: “Don’t rage at me, when it wasn’t apparent that it was a duel (due to location or setup of the fights)”, to: “Should we actually duel?”

As I see it:

WvW is build around the idea of pitting 3 server against each other and defeating the other servers. I think we don’t have to argue about that. So it is reasonable to assume this would be the attitude of the participants in this game mode.

If now some players prefer to duel, then they are actually deviating from the idea of the game mode. There are but different scenarios, in how this can appear:

Obvious Duel:
Duels are often fought in certain areas of the map, which are far away from strategic locations. Those duels don’t lead to any problem, as far as I can see it, except possibly overflowing the map and blocking other players, who might wanna follow the idea of WvW.
There are other obvious duels. If dozens of players of different servers stand around in an area observing 1v1 fights, then the situation is also very clear.
Duels close to strategic locations, where someone is actually telling the others, it is a duel, can still be problematic due to the possibility of interfering with strategical objectives.
In all those cases, I personally have sympathy with the duelers, and try to leave them alone, if I don’t see my server’s position in danger while doing so.

Not obvious Duels:
But if those duels close to strategic locations occur and there is no indication as it to be a duel, then no one can blame an allied player, if he/she interferes. After all, he simply wanted to help an ally. Raging at this interferer and even let him die to the other player based on this interference is imo somewhat unfair, for he actually came to help.

I think no one can actually make the point, that dueling has no place in WvW. Another basic statement of ANet is: “Play GW2 the way you want”. This goes only to a certain extent, of course, but does well apply to dueling in WvW.

However, taking the other PoV into consideration would be welcomed. Don’t let your ally die or rage at him/her for interfering in a situation, where he couldn’t know you didn’t wish his/her interference. On the other hand one should let duelers leave to their duels, if they made their intention obvious (main element here is the location and possibly friendly crowd of players of different servers) and do not interfere with strategic objectives.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Anet has pitted servers against servers and uses points as a metric to decide who is the winner but “I severely don’t understand the game design” because, again, you say so…

No not because I say so, because you demonstrate your failing to understand time and time again by your laughable stance that because WvW has a scoring system that is the be all and end all of what WvW is about or of what a game designer considers.

Do you think Anet are as slow as you are, and did not consider that people will play for different reasons, and that for many things other than the PPT would be more important and what kept them playing, WvW was designed with more in view than the points scoring, so I am afraid you attempting to justify everything within the context of that is ignorant.

In fact if you stretch your mind back, WvW was designed as nothing but a bit of casual fun, so all you PPT heroes who get competitive about “winning” in a laughably broken uncompetitive format are doing it wrong.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

How can it have no relevance on your stance? Please explain it to me. The setting is team based, not individualistic.

Nonsense, server based is not team based, they are not the same thing, there are people on servers who play pretty much entirely solo, and those who do everything in a “team” and everything in between, and in case you missed it, which you obviously have, this is a game where you can “play your own way”, this is another case of you thinking your subjective opinion is fact.

you said: “you may think the “moral” thing to do is help him, I’d say he made his own bed when he interrupted the 1v1 rather than doing the moral thing of letting it finish”

So in short, we have helping a teammate vs respecting a possible duel.

I repeat, not because it’s a mantra or it will make it more or less valid but because you apparently are slow to get it, this is a team game context asking you to score points and preventing your opponent to do the same. As opposed to what you seem to allude, the context is very in understanding why the act of helping is more valid than the act of respecting a possible duel.

It is not a case of respecting a duel, it is a case of respecting my fun in game, and as for what is “best for the server”, nonsense, what is “best for the server” if we are using your narrow view, would probably be do something else like scout, rather than interrupt a 1v1, unless the 1v1 is in a camp or something.

And of course if we use your narrow definition then most players in WvW, including many PPT heroes do not do what is “best for the server”, much of the time.

Just ask yourself if your pal interrupting a duel goes against the spirit of the game being a team efforts seeking to score points?

Again you come from a fundamentally ignorant position, seeking to score points is not the reason many people play the game, nor the only consideration when designing the game, so it is a non-argument, you may care about PPT, many don’t.

You just can’t seem to read what I say (remember, I also duel) and you kinda force me to repeat myself to no end because you can’t accept what I say.

I can read fine, you are simply believe you are presenting valid or logical arguments, when you are not.

Seriously, I’m done…

I am sure the planet will rejoice.

@zinkz and Sirbeaumerdier:
As far as I can see it Sirbeaumerdier makes actually more sense. I get the feeling zinkz is arguing a straw man instead of Sirbeaumerdier’s actual position.

zinkz.7045:

snip

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Now for the rest of the forum who may argue that WvW offers many ways toward an end I totally agree with you all. Does that mean all ways are equally valid? Nope, not even close in a similar way it would not be equally valid to go from A to B with a car using roads vs going in a straight line no matter if on the road or not.

The problem currently is that many person excuse ANY ways of playing in WvW because they either argue one of two things:

1) There is no goal in WvW it’s a pure sand box.

OR

2) The goal is irrelevant since it’s broken (insert coverage and pop imbalance bla-bla).

The #1 stance above is pure BS even if there does seem to have a lot of freedom in thej way you can contribute. You have servers vs servers and a clear metric that determine winners. There is a clear inherent goal unless you are mentally constipated or in complete denial.

Stance #2 is already way better, if only because it can see the obvious goal, but ultimately still a fail when you seek to argue fights > PPT or duel respect is as important (or more) as teammate respect (and I will agree with all who say fights are more fun btw but that changes nothing since my preferences are irrelevant here). That the game has inherent flaws doesn’t change how it works nor alter it’s goal. If you don’t like it don’t ruin the fun of those who still love what they are left to play with. It’s a team setting, act like it. Sure you can say kitten this. However, successfully arguing your duel respect over your teammate respect and server goal in that context is a lost cause.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Just for fun, the hypocrisy is strong from someone who likes to call people “slow”.

@Sirbeaumerdier:
Are you German? Judging from ur name and your stance on WvW I think you might^^ Not implying that this is bad or good. But as I have noticed: German players are way more in line with the idea of organized server vs server warfare. It always amazes me, how many ppl care for dollies, upgrades and strategic play when faced against a German server.

TyPin.9860:

@Sirbeaumerdier:
Are you German? Judging from ur name and your stance on WvW I think you might^^ Not implying that this is bad or good. But as I have noticed: German players are way more in line with the idea of organized server vs server warfare. It always amazes me, how many ppl care for dollies, upgrades and strategic play when faced against a German server.

I’m not even european. :P But it’s purely logical to me.

I don’t say I actually play like a devoted zealot at all, but I can admire the players you describe for the serious they invest and the respect they show. They place the server above the guild or the individual. Why do I, a very individualistic guy like me, think it’s better to place the server above the individual (Ayn Rand bots go away)? Because the context and the success lies at the server level.

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Just for fun, the hypocrisy is strong from someone who likes to call people “slow”.

Don’t tell me, you have no idea what an ad-hominem is?

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Just for fun, the hypocrisy is strong from someone who likes to call people “slow”.

Don’t tell me, you have no idea what an ad-hominem is?

Aww how cute, you learnt a new word at school today. Bet you can’t wait to show off to your friends how cool you are

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

zinkz.7045:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Juts for fun, count how many ad-hominen you have included in your one post… this is exactly why it’s a waste of time to argue with you.

Just for fun, the hypocrisy is strong from someone who likes to call people “slow”.

Don’t tell me, you have no idea what an ad-hominem is?

No I know what it is, I didn’t make any ad-hominems, everything I said was stated as part of an actual argument in response to your points, so I assumed you are another one that uses “ad-hominem” incorrectly any time they feel slighted by some word or sentence.

Sometimes I make the mistake of crashing a duel because it wasn’t that obvious. Here’s the typical interaction:

“We’re dueling. Could you stop attacking”
“Ah, okay”

And then I go off to do something else, and yes, I will attack anything that approaches the nearest objective. No need to start trouble.

It’s not that big of a deal. The guy is no threat and preoccupied, and I have better use of my time.

TyPin.9860:

@zinkz and Sirbeaumerdier:
As far as I can see it Sirbeaumerdier makes actually more sense. I get the feeling zinkz is arguing a straw man instead of Sirbeaumerdier’s actual position.

Nope, the strawman is with Sirbeaumerdier. Pretty much any post that “snip” quotes and makes the opposing argument a generality is. It’s also a fallacy fallacy. :p (argument by fallacy)

But at least he has a point.

Places that are pretty bad for dueling:

• On a road that yaks travel.
• Next to a sentry (see above).
• Next to a bloodlust spot.
• Somewhere folks tend to build siege.
• Real close to a camp that’s getting flipped often whenever both “invader” servers are putting any real numbers on a map.

So, basically, if you’re dueling north of south camp you should expect to get interrupt A LOT.

The dueling thing does tend to throw me off. I don’t particularly want to interfere with people who are dueling, but it’s not always as obvious as I’d hope. And I wouldn’t be happy if I got attacked by a roamer and an ally passed by but didn’t bother to help out either, so I don’t particularly want to inflict that on my own allies, so… wagh.

There have been at least a couple times I recall that that was a problem – didn’t recognize any signs that a fight was a duel and then interfered unnecessarily. Once was in the hylek camp at the south of EB, and once was on a BL on the north-western dolyak path. The latter, we even had a guy say something like “stop it’s a duel” but myself and the other folks going past went tunnel-vision and didn’t notice what he said until it was too late. Did feel bad about both occasions and started looking more carefully when I observed just two people fighting, but on the other hand that means I might hesitate when someone actually wants help and waste vital seconds. And I’m not a particularly good PvP player and probably won’t be much help if that guy goes down.

This thread did bring some clarity though: both those duels that I remember were in bad places and near objectives. The fact that I seldom see duels might indicate most people who play them started holding them where they won’t be disturbed, which is a good thing.

Hmm, that is an issue, though at least in my experience, I can easily tell if it’s a duel or not. In general, people being ganked have certain patterns to their movement (generally panic), and yes I would usually join in unless otherwise stated. Usually if I see people blowing off their skills and either heading in a direction of a camp/tower/tag then it’s easy to put 2 and 2 together. Another way is by their weapon; you are not going to see any roaming staff guardians, for example.

I suppose it’s better to err on the side of caution and not assume it’s a duel if the obvious evidence isn’t there, and then adjust if things change. And despite all that I say, it’s probably wrong for anyone to get too salty.

People that duel in bad places or claim not to recognize a duel both suffer from a lack of awareness. I would think that improving in this area could only help.

ASP.8093:

Places that are pretty bad for dueling:

• On a road that yaks travel.
• Next to a sentry (see above).
• Next to a bloodlust spot.
• Somewhere folks tend to build siege.
• Real close to a camp that’s getting flipped often whenever both “invader” servers are putting any real numbers on a map.

So, basically, if you’re dueling north of south camp you should expect to get interrupt A LOT.

You can basicly say that wvw is a bad play to duel, there is pvp for a reason. Now I accept the weird duel rules and the places in EB and leave them alone. But the moment someone start to yell at me that I should go and not interfere is the one I am going to harras you all night long, and bring friends if I have to. =)
Dont tell me what to do in this wvw part of the game.

ArchonWing.9480:

Sometimes I make the mistake of crashing a duel because it wasn’t that obvious. Here’s the typical interaction:

“We’re dueling. Could you stop attacking”
“Ah, okay”

And then I go off to do something else, and yes, I will attack anything that approaches the nearest objective. No need to start trouble.

It’s not that big of a deal. The guy is no threat and preoccupied, and I have better use of my time.

TyPin.9860:

@zinkz and Sirbeaumerdier:
As far as I can see it Sirbeaumerdier makes actually more sense. I get the feeling zinkz is arguing a straw man instead of Sirbeaumerdier’s actual position.

Nope, the strawman is with Sirbeaumerdier. Pretty much any post that “snip” quotes and makes the opposing argument a generality is. It’s also a fallacy fallacy. :p (argument by fallacy)

But at least he has a point.

I’ll give you that point about my sniping, but that is about it. At this point people who argue honestly understand my POV and those who won’t hear anything will, well, not ever consider changing their mind ever.

Cya later folks… I’ll be happy to duel those who want it but know that the server comes first and my duel second. Not because I don’t prefer fights, I do, but because it’s coherent and respectful to the context while my dueling is not.

The vast majority of duelers are actually not very good at fighting, they just think they are. They are so used to fighting the same people (while refusing to fight so called cheese builds), that they never really hone their craft. If they really wanted good fights, they would PvP.

So, when I jump in its bad for the other guy and all my server mate can do is watch and complain. Enjoy the walk back from the WP.

Flyphish.6398:

The vast majority of duelers are actually not very good at fighting, they just think they are. They are so used to fighting the same people (while refusing to fight so called cheese builds), that they never really hone their craft. If they really wanted good fights, they would PvP.

So, when I jump in its bad for the other guy and all my server mate can do is watch and complain. Enjoy the walk back from the WP.

Considering players from the same skill lvl, the one jumping in the fight always has the advantage. The enemy will have already used some cooldowns and you have the surprise effect. Some players posting on this topic have the false idea that people doing a 1v1 are better than any average wvw pug.

Anyone running a something close to an spvp or small scale meta build can jump in a 1v1 and have the big advantage.

For example a player playing something similar to spvp celestial d/d or staff can pretty much fight anyone in a 1v1 without much problem.The ones it can’t kill it can at least stale the fight for ages. In the very rare cases of the enemy hard countering they can FGS away and come back in a few seconds. Can keep doing this forever ruining duels all day long.

I used the celestial ele example because is one of my main, but there are several others builds that can do the same.

If you really want some good laughs, stand around and watch the duel without interrupting. If your mate wins, run in for the stomp (;

Sirbeaumerdier is statistically canadian (from Québec), or from Sénégal, since he obviously speaks french but is not european. At first read his username kind of sounded german to me as well, that’s true.

That’s all I’m gonna add to this sterile debate.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

If you really want some good laughs, stand around and watch the duel without interrupting. If your mate wins, run in for the stomp (;

Going for that “ultimate dominator” title, one hater at a time…

xDudisx.5914:

Considering players from the same skill lvl, the one jumping in the fight always has the advantage. The enemy will have already used some cooldowns and you have the surprise effect. Some players posting on this topic have the false idea that people doing a 1v1 are better than any average wvw pug.

Well, they do play dueling builds, so if a guy in PVT runs in, he’ll loose.

And yeah, people dueling obviously like small scale pvp, so I think it’s safe to say that they are statistically better in 1v1 (after all, that’s what they like to do), so they often win, even taken by surprise. That’s not an absolute rule, though.