Guild Wars 2

So each week we get EoTM threads and each time we get a number of people that say EoTM is not WvW. So for those that feel that way, what is it about EoTM that makes you say this? Been wondering what makes some people dismiss EoTM from the WvW classification. To me it’s more of a player mindset then a map mechanic but was trying to understand what drives some people against it.

Some of the reasons I have seen stated in other threads are:

• Points don’t add into weekly score (Game Mechanic)
• You are not playing with just your server (Game Mechanic)
• People don’t defend objectives (Player Issue)
• Matches are too short (Game Mechanic)
• Can’t upgrade structures (Game Mechanic)
• Players don’t seek fights (Player Issue)

So if you don’t think EoTM is WvW, why for you and what would make you feel it belongs in WvW? Good hunting!

Why does it need to be included?

Let’s start by stating the fact scoring in EotM has no effect on WvW. That right there is plenty enough to seperate the two, no?

WvW needs work. EotM is fine as it is for what it is.

Well… Firstly you actually get rewarded for playing EotM…

For me WvW and EotM are like party-PvP and random-PvP.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

There is a completely different focus between the game modes.

WvW
—A combination of offense and defensive focus
—Results that actually provide value to your homeworld
—Tough fights with mostly max level characters
—A sense of community knowing people across guilds (the main reason I WvW)

EotM
—A PvE map where you can kill players
—The best karma train in the game
—The easiest way to level new alts
—The sides are way too unbalanced for anything competitive
—The mega server concept doesn’t allow you to get to know anyone
—A place where you can go to gank noobs
—A place for guild groups to go if they can’t win fights in WvW

style.6173:

EotM
—A PvE map where you can kill players
—The best karma train in the game
—The easiest way to level new alts
—The sides are way too unbalanced for anything competitive
—The mega server concept doesn’t allow you to get to know anyone
—A place where you can go to gank noobs
—A place for guild groups to go if they can’t win fights in WvW

—If you can kill players it’s a PvP map, not PvE.
—Agreed
—Questionable… I can get tomes of knowledge very fast on sPvP. But since I have 8 80’s I haven’t tested which one is faster.
—Because WvW is super balanced right?
—I see plenty of familiar faces when I go to EotM. I guess you need to start meeting people from other servers more often…
—I can gank noobs on wvw too
—A sad but good point

Jeknar.6184:

style.6173:

EotM
—A PvE map where you can kill players
—The best karma train in the game
—The easiest way to level new alts
—The sides are way too unbalanced for anything competitive
—The mega server concept doesn’t allow you to get to know anyone
—A place where you can go to gank noobs
—A place for guild groups to go if they can’t win fights in WvW

—If you can kill players it’s a PvP map, not PvE.
—Agreed
—Questionable… I can get tomes of knowledge very fast on sPvP. But since I have 8 80’s I haven’t tested which one is faster.
—Because WvW is super balanced right?
—I see plenty of familiar faces when I go to EotM. I guess you need to start meeting people from other servers more often…
—I can gank noobs on wvw too
—A sad but good point

—My point is that the map was built around PvE concepts. New boss mechanics, different buffs, etc. Those were the cornerstone of the new map. You just happen to be able to kill people there as well.
—Ok
—I do a lot of PvP as well. I’d say to do a test. Spend one hour on any alt and see how many times you level (even if you use an 80) in EotM. Then start a new rewards track in PvP and try that. You’ll definitely level faster in EotM and will gain more karma/loot.
—I wasn’t clear on this one. I meant the map itself isn’t balanced. Let’s be honest…. red is horrible.
—Those people change every week though, or at least a good number of them. I’d much rather see the same commanders/players every day week after week. That builds a community.
—True, but easier in EotM because most people use that map to level.
—Yeah

A few detailed responses, with some good points, BUT for me the answer is simple;

The reasons many people discount EOTM , or in fact rubbish or trash talk EOTM are the same reasons people discount, rubbish or trash talk anything.

For their own reasons, they are not capable of doing otherwise.

If you personally see it as WvW…..

“I am what I am, and that’s all that I am.” — Popeye

The main reason is that mostly EotM is large zergs that simply PvD and PvBosses and almost never fight other zergs. That is by definition PvE, not WvW. There is nothing wrong with EotM, just like there is nothing wrong with PvE, but it’s not WvW. Ganking players in WvW for sport is like being a high school bully, if you truly want to test your skill against another player then PvP where the builds are at least somewhat even…

If there would be more balance there would be more fights. But if you always have outmanned buf you aren’t really looking for fights. And if you outman the other and play to much on fights you sit rather sooner than later alone on the map.

• No community leads to
• no one cares about winning or losing leads to
• PvE karma train.

it’s generally pve map when all 3 commanders are crabbing karma. but once one of the sides gets pvp oriented leader it becomes fun.

well it used to be so before and during wvw season 2. after that sfr became too stronk with all those rallybots who transfered for wvw rewards.

now only first overflow (which you can join in first 1-2 minutes of eotm matchup) sometimes can provide some fun but that’s all.

that is about eu

All I can say about it is I now find EOTM more fun than playing WvW and that is what the game should be about. I think WvW has more potential but it seems stale to me now. BG is so organized and trained that there isn’t a lot of drama except for the occasional epic battle and the participation in WvW is pathetic at this time. I even saw unqueued maps on Friday night which was really surprising.

Meanwhile, there seems to be a shift to a lot more PVP in EOTM then there used to be. EOTM feels more like a free-for-all with crazy unorganized battles and pugs who won’t listen to a thing you say. I started commanding there over the last 2 weeks and while it is a pain in the neck to try and type instructions while fighting, I find the overall experience very satisfying and we have had some crazy fun wipes of the other sides as well as disappointments. Besides, where else can you command as a glass necro and wreak havoc? You just have to have a different mindset and realize that while it isn’t WvW, it can still be a fun challenging gaming experience.

Based on the responses so far let me spin it a bit. Would anyone have an issue if the map was moved into the regular borderlands as well? Aka added to EB and the 3 borderlands for regular WvW play as well? Leave server population out from the question for a minute, is there anything besides the garrison keeps not being equally weighted that would make opposed to this? If so..what? Good hunting!

TheGrimm.5624:

Based on the responses so far let me spin it a bit. Would anyone have an issue if the map was moved into the regular borderlands as well? Aka added to EB and the 3 borderlands for regular WvW play as well? Leave server population out from the question for a minute, is there anything besides the garrison keeps not being equally weighted that would make opposed to this? If so..what? Good hunting!

The mechanics for each colour actually make EotM way too imbalanced for competitive play. Here is the red side case:

If the weaker server is red, their keep will just be farmed over and over because of the workshop… It’s impossible to defend against a horde of mobile siege. If people are a bit smart they won’t stand udner AC fire and the wall will melt in seconds.

If the strongest server is red, they can sweep anything they want with a horde of mobile siege. It’s like a golem rush, but for free… They have the bodies to escort the devourers and a lot of people to be on devourers themselves.

Lots of guilds go to EotM to bag farm when:
the servers they face end up running away from them everywhere they go,
or
the matchup they’re in is so blown out they can’t so much as move in WvW proper without getting blobbed down reallly fast.

It’s too easy cap towers in borderlands. Those champs are so weak compared EotM pro champs and players sometimes defend in EotM. Nobody defend in borderlands.

The Main advantage of EotM is: it scales to different amounts of Players.

When 300 want to play you have one full map, if 30000 want to play you have 100 full maps. (At least when this bad side assignment based on WvW color is replaced with “a new player joins the currently smallest team”, currently (in EU) you have 2 maps when 300 want to play: each with 90 green vs 25 red vs 35 blue)

WvW on the other side always have around 10’000 slots for player, if only 300 want to play they hardly find each other, if 30’000 want to play 2/3 sit in queue.

And the main disadvantage of EotM is: Winning or loosing a match has zero meaning. That was a great advantage of WvW, but nowadays, with the imbalanced matches, it has no meaning remaining as well, winner/looser known before the match starts makes competition inexistent as well.

EotM you usually don’t fight other players. In WvW you always do.

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

EotM you usually don’t fight other players. In WvW you always do.

Actually take any imbalanced borderland fight and this is 100% false. It happens all the times on regular maps where one side is capping empty structures, especially if its imbalanced or one server has a time zone covered that the others don’t. If anything EoTM as a map is more like EB where you are more likely to encounter enemies if you simply move to the middle of the map. I am going to group this in the player issue side versus map design side for now.

Jeknar.6184:

TheGrimm.5624:

Based on the responses so far let me spin it a bit. Would anyone have an issue if the map was moved into the regular borderlands as well? Aka added to EB and the 3 borderlands for regular WvW play as well? Leave server population out from the question for a minute, is there anything besides the garrison keeps not being equally weighted that would make opposed to this? If so..what? Good hunting!

The mechanics for each colour actually make EotM way too imbalanced for competitive play. Here is the red side case:

If the weaker server is red, their keep will just be farmed over and over because of the workshop… It’s impossible to defend against a horde of mobile siege. If people are a bit smart they won’t stand udner AC fire and the wall will melt in seconds.

If the strongest server is red, they can sweep anything they want with a horde of mobile siege. It’s like a golem rush, but for free… They have the bodies to escort the devourers and a lot of people to be on devourers themselves.

I admit I like red since to me it leads to more fights since the other hit red so much. I agree here I think this is one of the bigger issues people have with the design. But I wonder if with small changes or even flipping sides on who controls which zone would help balancing out the 1-3 positions. We have seen small changes have large effects on the strengths of the keeps. Blue to me is one of the best to defend with its inner bastion. When someone actively hold its it can be murderous to take.

Frankly, I don’t think it matters where you sort it.

Eotm is a overflow-map and designed as such.
It was never intended as being part of wvw matchups (hence it was never introduced post-beta into regular wvw).
It’s intend is to give a light-headed, more action-based exirirence to those who:
- did end up in a queue.
- don’t like the 24/7 pressure in wvw.
- don’t like the slow, strategic approach in actual wvw-maps.
- prefer action-filled matches in WoW battleground-style.

what it became to is:
- karma/wxp train 24/7
- exp train for upscaled
- build-testing-ground for solo roamers
- noobganking if said roamers meet them
- troll faceroll for cc-heavy builds

WvW players that are struck by a queue most of the time don’t even bother to enter eotm, so the true purpose is somewhat lost for most cases.

If you like 4h matchups with nothing but farmers, trolls and upscaled, fine, I’m sure it can be fun from time to time. But since you don’t partake in the fight between servers, you contribute nothing to WvW (except some supps in citadel spawn, lol), therefore you’re not a WvW player if you spend most of your time in eotm.

Again, this is not a bad thing necessarily, just a false usage of terms for some people…

Arantheal.7396:

It’s intend is to give a light-headed, more action-based exirirence to those who:
- did end up in a queue.
- don’t like the 24/7 pressure in wvw.
- don’t like the slow, strategic approach in actual wvw-maps.
- prefer action-filled matches in WoW battleground-style.

- think that the scoring is non-sense in WvW
- hate the imbalanced matches in WvW
- don’t like the arrogance of the WvW-player and commander
- find 24/7 nonsense
- don’t want to hear commanders shouting in voice-chat
- don’t like calls-for-scouts, attendance checks, …
- bored of empty WvW-maps outside primetime
- enjoy the variance the imbalanced map design brings (I like red, if it wouldn’t have outmanned buf 80% of the time I would love it.)
- want that WvW in its current shape dies-out to make space for something new, but still want to play a bit from time to time

Dayra.7405:

Arantheal.7396:

It’s intend is to give a light-headed, more action-based exirirence to those who:
- did end up in a queue.
- don’t like the 24/7 pressure in wvw.
- don’t like the slow, strategic approach in actual wvw-maps.
- prefer action-filled matches in WoW battleground-style.

- think that the scoring is non-sense in WvW
- hate the imbalanced matches in WvW
- don’t like the arrogance of the WvW-player and commander
- find 24/7 nonsense
- don’t want to hear commanders shouting in voice-chat
- don’t like calls-for-scouts, attendance checks, …
- bored of empty WvW-maps outside primetime
- enjoy the variance the imbalanced map design brings (I like red, if it wouldn’t have outmanned buf 80% of the time I would love it.)
- want that WvW in its current shape dies-out to make space for something new, but still want to play a bit from time to time

tl;dr: stop liking what i don’t like…
mhm…

Just a reminder:
this not “Why do I hate WvW” this is “Why is eotm not WvW”

Arantheal.7396:

Frankly, I don’t think it matters where you sort it.

To be honest there are three reasons for this thread:

• Honestly would like to see EoTM tied more closely into WvW for points
• Alternatively would like to see an EoTM map added to the maps for the 3 server matches, EB/EoTM/3 Borderlands
• Would like to know why some people like and dislike in case they design us more maps in the future

By asking people why they don’t think its WvW hope to try and figure out if its the design or how people have used it that effects people’s impressions.

To me, anywhere that you allow people to fight each other for control of objectives in an open world is WvW. I see uplevels, karma farms, empty takes, uneven fights all the time in the regular maps so does that mean anything out of T1 is EoTM? It is annoying that time spent in EoTM doesn’t help out your server, and that is part of the issue in my book.

Not looking to rile anyone up, just something interesting on the forums that might lead to better products down the road. Good hunting!

Dasenthal.6520:

Well… Firstly you actually get rewarded for playing EotM…

If you feel rewarded by loot and karma that is. The play style is anything but rewarding.

TheGrimm.5624:

So each week we get EoTM threads and each time we get a number of people that say EoTM is not WvW. So for those that feel that way, what is it about EoTM that makes you say this? Been wondering what makes some people dismiss EoTM from the WvW classification. To me it’s more of a player mindset then a map mechanic but was trying to understand what drives some people against it.

Some of the reasons I have seen stated in other threads are:

• Points don’t add into weekly score (Game Mechanic)
• You are not playing with just your server (Game Mechanic)
• People don’t defend objectives (Player Issue)
• Matches are too short (Game Mechanic)
• Can’t upgrade structures (Game Mechanic)
• Players don’t seek fights (Player Issue)

So if you don’t think EoTM is WvW, why for you and what would make you feel it belongs in WvW? Good hunting!

To me the major difference is how the majority of people use EoTM. It’s anything, but making points to win the match. People couldn’t care less.

You can argue that many also have that attitude on WvW but you also have many who don’t and points are still an objective that drives people to upgrade and defend. I saw nothing like that in EoTM the very few times I ever went there and there is a reason why I don’t like it. It’s for people who want to turn in circle collecting loot, Karma and XP. It is not a game of strategy.

TheGrimm.5624:

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

EotM you usually don’t fight other players. In WvW you always do.

Actually take any imbalanced borderland fight and this is 100% false. It happens all the times on regular maps where one side is capping empty structures, especially if its imbalanced or one server has a time zone covered that the others don’t. If anything EoTM as a map is more like EB where you are more likely to encounter enemies if you simply move to the middle of the map. I am going to group this in the player issue side versus map design side for now.

I play quite a bit of WvW and very little EotM because there are so few real battles in EotM. The few fights I have seen break out in EotM seem completely accidental, with both sides just happening to run into each other, all breaking down into chaos and running away in every direction. WvW for me isn’t like that. Players in WvW are intent on killing each other.

eotm is a cool map and all … it is just this

there is 0 reason to defend
there is 0 reason to attack anything but the next point u are trying to cap

caveman.5840:

there is 0 reason to defend

If you defend enemy can’t cap. It’s good reason.

EotM… just isn’t what I have in mind when I think of PvP. People play EotM for capping stuff, not for fighting people. It’s a karmatrain first, a champ train next and a leveling place last. PvP rarely enters in it’s definition.

There are no roamers, no fair fights, no real competition whatsoever.

Junkpile.7439:

caveman.5840:

there is 0 reason to defend

If you defend enemy can’t cap. It’s good reason.

Dem bags… And dem tears… These are also good reasons…

Junkpile.7439:

caveman.5840:

there is 0 reason to defend

If you defend enemy can’t cap. It’s good reason.

That’s a bad reason to defend, you cannot cap it while it belongs to you

There is a defense event, and kills give a bit as well, but the game design is clearly offensive, capping gives much more than defending. So if there is an easy and fast opportunity to defend, take it, if not, come back 5min later

Defense doesn’t work without the support of a zerg commander in any part of WvW. Your sentries, upgrades and siege only buy more time until the zerg shows up. If the zerg is not showing up, you will probably lose the objective. My bit of advice for you if you want to hold a position and hope, make sure you have two superior ac’s built at least 500 distance apart so they can’t both be disabled. Make sure you have a siege disabler and enough supply to deploy it. Make sure you know where any commander on your map is in chat or comms.

if you are new to WvW, you might not know that the ac’s need to be out of line of sight of casters. One way to place them is to stand at the bottom of the tower wall and aim the throw so that it is about 2/3 above the top of the wall. The built ac and the player using it will be hard to hit, but have full range.

I enjoy WvW because I like big fights. Matchups in WvW the last few weeks have been so unbalanced that I spend tons of time running around accomplishing nothing and barely see any enemy players. Sadly, I’ve seen more zerg fighting in EotM.

Thing is with EotM is that its a farm train and it gives you everything. Gold, Karma, Exp, Bags, Badges and WvW rank. No one goes to EotM for fights, its just a huge ktrain. At the very least, they should have removed badges/wvw exp from EotM because its not even being used as a pvp map, its just another pve ktrain with the option of fighting which is usually avoided.

I usually go to EotM to get my daily 10 kills (most of the time solo, farming reinforcements), it’s 10 times faster there than in WvW.
While I kill my 5 dollies or flip my 3 camps I usually do not see any enemy in WvW.

So yes it’s more PvP area than WvW at moment.

No one confuses spvp with wvw do they? They both have pvp but they are clearly not the same. Eotm is not wvw in the same way it is not spvp.

Often enough posters write something here….

I am having generic issue in “wvw”

And they proceed to describe an eotm issue.

Responses follow…. eotm is not wvw!

Apples and oranges

TheGrimm.5624:

So each week we get EoTM threads and each time we get a number of people that say EoTM is not WvW. So for those that feel that way, what is it about EoTM that makes you say this? Been wondering what makes some people dismiss EoTM from the WvW classification. To me it’s more of a player mindset then a map mechanic but was trying to understand what drives some people against it.

Some of the reasons I have seen stated in other threads are:

• Points don’t add into weekly score (Game Mechanic)
• You are not playing with just your server (Game Mechanic)
• People don’t defend objectives (Player Issue)
• Matches are too short (Game Mechanic)
• Can’t upgrade structures (Game Mechanic)
• Players don’t seek fights (Player Issue)

So if you don’t think EoTM is WvW, why for you and what would make you feel it belongs in WvW? Good hunting!

I think wether you call it wvw or not is pretty meaningless because it will always be what you make out of it.
I got bored of regular wvw in recent weeks because our match ups got stale, mostly consisting of karma training, which i dont really enjoy, so i have been only playing eotm.

Gameplay there changed quite a bit since the beggining with alot more commanders focussing on fights and farming the enemy instead of karma training and avoiding the enemy. I am not there for the karma, i have enough of that. I am there for the loot and WXP, both is faster obtained by killing 20+ players than capturing a keep.

I also enjoy playing defense once in a while and that is definately more rewarding and less boring in eotm than in regular wvw because the map is so dynamic.
And defense is something you can almost play alone or in a small group. Just siege up a tower or keep and try to hold it for the match up.

Biggest problem with EotM is all the commanders use it as a karma grind since it doesn’t actually count as a wvw map.

If you are looking to bully players , go to EOTM , if you looking for unfair and sometimes fair fights, got WvW. They dont call eotm newbie town for nothing.

HamHat.5201:

Biggest problem with EotM is all the commanders use it as a karma grind since it doesn’t actually count as a wvw map.

i spent at least 4 hours per day for the last 3 weeks in eotm and most of the time, commanders were going for fights rather than karma training.

oh, might be something I heard about. There are some, hum, ungruntulled? commanders taking it out on EotM

anybody heard of Dgins?

maybe he wants some new guild to rank up in WvW or something

is there a difference in drop rates for EOTM vs WVW ?

i have been playing wvw non stop for the last few days and the best drop i got was a yellow.

then i go to eotm last night when wvw died out.
and in the first 10 min i get 3 orange drops and a yellow ???

caveman.5840:

is there a difference in drop rates for EOTM vs WVW ?

i have been playing wvw non stop for the last few days and the best drop i got was a yellow.

then i go to eotm last night when wvw died out.
and in the first 10 min i get 3 orange drops and a yellow ???

You fight and kill more enemies in EotM so you get more loot.

Junkpile.7439:

caveman.5840:

is there a difference in drop rates for EOTM vs WVW ?

i have been playing wvw non stop for the last few days and the best drop i got was a yellow.

then i go to eotm last night when wvw died out.
and in the first 10 min i get 3 orange drops and a yellow ???

You fight and kill more enemies in EotM so you get more loot.

thats the thing i did not fight anyone just npc

a few trolls on a bridge
a few camps and a tower

The players mentality have shaped eotm into what it currently is.It’s easy to blame anet,i think they could do some minor changes so it wont be just a karma train going from champ to champ avoiding fights.The map had great potential but the people kinda ruined that.

Caedmon.6798:

The players mentality have shaped eotm into what it currently is.It’s easy to blame anet,i think they could do some minor changes so it wont be just a karma train going from champ to champ avoiding fights.The map had great potential but the people kinda ruined that.

I think this is part of it. I have seen karma trains on the regular borderlands as well in the past, unless people believe that you need 50 people to take empty objectives all together and one at a time without any enemies on the map.

As we have seen above some people finds fights on EoTM and some just find people avoiding fights. To me, that says its not a map issue. Another we have seen is statements of loot differences. Was paying more attention to this and besides the extra chest, which contains shards/badges which you can get w/o it being in said chests in regular maps its pretty close, so am starting to question that. Drops rates are RNG, you just more NPCs in EoTM then regular maps if you are not finding other players to kill.

Appreciate all the replies so far. Personally I like the map flow and design and still would like to see it included in scoring for weekly points but wanted to see if people had more reasons that would indicate why it shouldn’t be.

As always, good hunting!