Guild Wars 2

zhonnika.1784:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

HazyDaisy.4107:

It’s a merged thread because there’s so many complaints about a 3-1/2 week old system. I’m not going to read the previous posts, because I wasnt talking to only 1 of the previous posters in paricular.

Whatever anyone doesn’t like about the system for whatever reason, understand some people didn’t get anything whill leveling wvw, not even the joy of waiting a couple of weeks for the possibility of something.

I thought wvwers don’t care about rewards. I thought it was all about the joy of playing wvw. Why do they care what happens with the rewards?

It’s not that we don’t care about rewards! It’s just that was pointless for YEARS to hope we would get them. The closest thing you could hope to acquire as a ‘reward’ was maybe an ascended chest on rank up. Or maybe a ring. Other than that… crickets

so if i say i play only for rewards, im met with your doing it wrong, if your not playing wvw for fun and just enjoying the game mode you’re not who we want playing wvw.

If i say ok then who cares about the rewards so then just lower the requirement for the rewards because who cares about rewards right? its the game mode that matters. I’m met with – these are our rewards! and we care about them very much, and you shouldn’t have them at all! This game mode is not meant for you and you should leave.

So its whatever argument wvwers feel like presenting to which ever logical argument is presented to them, as long as it makes them appear to be “right” then that’s all that matters. Who cares what new players or veteran players who play all game modes think… right?

Even though wvwers are asking for new players to join but they don’t want to listen to new/returning players opinions about how pips or rewards are handled, because this is “their” game mode and they don’t want anyone to change it, least of all new/returning players.

There is a difference between between coming in to wvw looking for rewards and finding out you like it and stay. Entirely different to come in, hate it, then complain on forums to get yoir stuff and get out faster, making an eotm candy pip farming mess in the process.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

zhonnika.1784:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

HazyDaisy.4107:

It’s a merged thread because there’s so many complaints about a 3-1/2 week old system. I’m not going to read the previous posts, because I wasnt talking to only 1 of the previous posters in paricular.

Whatever anyone doesn’t like about the system for whatever reason, understand some people didn’t get anything whill leveling wvw, not even the joy of waiting a couple of weeks for the possibility of something.

I thought wvwers don’t care about rewards. I thought it was all about the joy of playing wvw. Why do they care what happens with the rewards?

It’s not that we don’t care about rewards! It’s just that was pointless for YEARS to hope we would get them. The closest thing you could hope to acquire as a ‘reward’ was maybe an ascended chest on rank up. Or maybe a ring. Other than that… crickets

so if i say i play only for rewards, im met with your doing it wrong, if your not playing wvw for fun and just enjoying the game mode you’re not who we want playing wvw.

If i say ok then who cares about the rewards so then just lower the requirement for the rewards because who cares about rewards right? its the game mode that matters. I’m met with – these are our rewards! and we care about them very much, and you shouldn’t have them at all! This game mode is not meant for you and you should leave.

So its whatever argument wvwers feel like presenting to which ever logical argument is presented to them, as long as it makes them appear to be “right” then that’s all that matters. Who cares what new players or veteran players who play all game modes think… right?

Even though wvwers are asking for new players to join but they don’t want to listen to new/returning players opinions about how pips or rewards are handled, because this is “their” game mode and they don’t want anyone to change it, least of all new/returning players.

Just because we don’t agree with you or be convinced to agree with you after your arguments, does not mean that we don’t listen to what you say. It just happens to be things we disagree with.

So how about we not accuse either side of things that we can’t prove because we aren’t mind readers? You aren’t alone in claiming things you can’t prove and it’s not just your side doing it either.

The problem with just lowering the requirements, then you run the risk of the carrots being too “front end” loaded and leave nothing for when the player is a 2+ year vet. Which could lead to turn overs that happen too quickly for WvW to have a stable population and things become worse for WvW than they were before this patch hit.

And knee jerk adjusting isn’t good either. It could lead to over corrections in either direction and take longer to reach the magic numbers. I’d rather they sit for 3-6 months and let things stabilize in WvW before doing too much adjusting unless they feel things are grossly off. And unfortunately, none of us can really know what they intended for T2 and T3 armors to do.

A potential solution is to disassociate tickets earned from other WvW rewards earned in the PIP track or make all the tickets for the week more upfront in the rewards.

Tickets should be “fairly easy” to attain in a given amount of time similar to raiding/boss week caps or even by day for WvW.

The second component is to make Skirmish Chests valuable to attain too. This encourages veteran WvW players to continue on throughout the week after attaining the first final Diamond chest.

Now as for feedback on part 1 component, “fairly easy” is subjective as this should describe somewhere in the neighborhood of ~1 hour of playtime per day (~7 hours per week). This keeps the casual/quick WvW crowd happy while giving enough exposure to WvW to learn the enjoyment of it (or leave and go about other activities).

Part 2 component is actually far more tricky. Ideally, you get a highly demanded resource that is updated with the rest of the game (like magic-warped bundle ) or just straight up gold that satisfies the economic portion – leave the other options just because. The other additional thought is to alleviate some of the ongoing WvW rank requirement tiering on armor is to also include Thimble of Liquid WvW xp inside the Skirmish Chests too.

TL;DR there is a middle ground that satisfies both sides of the coin here. ANet should split weekly capped tickets versus other WvW PIP rewards.

We need degrees/stacks of outnumbered. +5 for hugely outnumbered is fine, but there should also be +4 for slightly less outnumbered, +3 for slightly less again and so on.

This binary state of “nothing if not outnumbered” / “+5 for outnumbered” is just silly and just encourages map hopping at the end of each tick.

HazyDaisy.4107:

It’s a merged thread because there’s so many complaints about a 3-1/2 week old system. I’m not going to read the previous posts, because I wasnt talking to only 1 of the previous posters in paricular.

Whatever anyone doesn’t like about the system for whatever reason, understand some people didn’t get anything whill leveling wvw, not even the joy of waiting a couple of weeks for the possibility of something.

It was literally on the same page, only a few posts above yours……

Here’s the extract for you:
So the problem is that they introduced a new currency (well, old but they reintroduced it as a permanent thing) that is limited on time. You only get a certain amount a week.
- The Fractal equivalent is pages, not level 100 with AR ascended. You need to get to rank 2 to start getting your 2 pages/day. 7 hours a week, being very, very generous
- The Raid equivalent is LI, it’s 13 a week. The time required is based solemnly on skill. From 3 hours to infinite.
- The PVP requirement is… playing during pvp season, the ascended shards are not timegated, repeating the last chest doesn’t remove them. An hour everyday (7h/week) is more than enough to complete all the chests in 2 months.
All these modes have one thing in common: Whether you’re new to the mode or not, you can get exactly the same amount of that specific currency today. And this timegated currency is something that is there to keep you playing a bit everyday/week, it isn’t meant to make you play that mode 3-6 hours a day.

The real token of your past experience is your rank. Not the WvW tickets. Again comparing with the other modes:
PVP: Your PVP rank: Gives you access to additional finishers (that’s all they get yes, not specific advantage)
Fractals: Access to higher fractal tiers, more ascended stuff, fractal backpack
Raids: You simply get the kills faster if you’re good/experienced. And you are ahead with LIs.
Now you can tell me sure but so vet raiders have indeed an advantage! Yes but not an unfair one. If you want to start raids today, you can get your 13 LI within the same time as anybody else. You aren’t asked to go back to only doing w1 and earning w1 rewards for a few months, then do w1-w2 for a few other months, etc. Everything is readily available to you.
That is what you are asking with this pip system you are calling fair, you are asking a new player to retroactively “give their time” to the WvW god before you can start earning the same timegated rewards as the others.
If you do a strict comparison to the other modes, this is indeed unfair. It does punish you for not having played earlier by adding a second gate, beside rank. A new system is in place in June 2017, everyone should be able to put the required 1h/day to cap the timegated currency.

Artaz.3819:

A potential solution is to disassociate tickets earned from other WvW rewards earned in the PIP track or make all the tickets for the week more upfront in the rewards.

Tickets should be “fairly easy” to attain in a given amount of time similar to raiding/boss week caps or even by day for WvW.
[…]

TL;DR there is a middle ground that satisfies both sides of the coin here. ANet should split weekly capped tickets versus other WvW PIP rewards.

Exactly, this guy gets it.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a Silver rank in WvW (+2). I have no problem with the fact that higher ranks get more pips, it is fair enough.

My only real problem with the pip system is that the rank bonus comprises a majority of the potential rewards – if your server is third place and you are low rank you’re probably only earning one pip per tick, maybe two with the Commitment bonus, and this is regardless of individual effort or merit. The end result is a situation that is just really demoralizing for the average player and doesn’t help to attract new blood to the WvW mode.

My suggestion would be to increase the baseline pip acquisition without changing the high rank bonus. Maybe +1 pip for each participation tier you reach after 3rd, or even increasing the world score reward to 2/4/6 instead of 1/2/3? I’m sure there are options to make newer players feel like WvW is worth their time in terms of rewards without taking anything away from the veterans.

Grav.3568:

We need degrees/stacks of outnumbered. +5 for hugely outnumbered is fine, but there should also be +4 for slightly less outnumbered, +3 for slightly less again and so on.

This binary state of “nothing if not outnumbered” / “+5 for outnumbered” is just silly and just encourages map hopping at the end of each tick.

That would imply someone going 1v30 for some reason has a better advantage over someone going 1v50. I’m pretty sure you have no chance in either scenario.

Outnumbered is outnumbered.

- Reduce the outnumbered pip gain to +2 and the amount will be fixed.
- Add a 2.5m cooldown on gaining pips to fix map hop (ie you have to have played at least half the tick on your current map).
- Finally make it so that if you have been “determined” buffed for 2.5m (again, half a tick) you dont gain any more pips until the buff is removed, to fix safe spawn afkers.

Boom everything fixed.

In the end whatever changes are made, people are going to try abuse it until the very end. I think the pips for outnumbered are fine, just finding ways of stopping afk/map hopping abuse needs to be thought out. If we let participation to decay outside of wvw, pip hunters will just hop in and out for that purpose only just like they do with outnumbered map hopping. We need a way to at least keep those ‘pip hunters’ doing something actively that will help the server.

Grav.3568:

We need degrees/stacks of outnumbered. +5 for hugely outnumbered is fine, but there should also be +4 for slightly less outnumbered, +3 for slightly less again and so on.

This binary state of “nothing if not outnumbered” / “+5 for outnumbered” is just silly and just encourages map hopping at the end of each tick.

Doubly annoying is that you can be outnumbered for the entire cycle but it drops a few seconds before the clock reset and you lose it all. Again, binary depending on how outnumbered you are at the end of the cycle (because map-hopping can basically lose you the bonus just because of a surge of friendly-players).

The system chooses 1 random target to be captured in every map exept EB (total 3 target) .
The mark stay for 8 min for Supply deposits , 15 min for Towers etc .
The less populated map > the easier target

If the 2 overpopulated maps managed to get their target (regadles of time) , while the underdog managed to cap the Supply Deposit with 4 min on the clock (the first person that reaches on target > freezes the internal 8 min clock >regadles of how minutes he need to captured it , or even if he dies from an enemy)
, then every1 in every maps get +3 PiPs for only one time
and +1 for each person that is essentailly 30.000 yards (1/3 of the map , away from the Target .
If they captured it with 2 min left , then every1 gets only +1 PiP instead

Or the 2 populated servers can capture their target faster , so the undergod can take his time . Or all 3 of them , capture fast so every1 can gain +5

If all small points have been captured , then the system ask you to defend the Watcher or the Keep guards or 4/5 Deposit Guards from the enemies

If we divide each map into invisible circles (see pic) , then :
a) If a person have spent more that 1 min in his area (purple area) , must had travel for a small distance atleast (painted part-next circle ) to get the reward .
Gettting attacked by players or refreshing the catas , or chatting in the /team chat while on keep/tower , awards the PiP .
If you have stayed for more than 2 min in an area , then you will be forced to travel atleast till the upper circle (of any circle) , 45 sec after the captured point have been taken , or dont stay afk in a half circle for more that 55 sec

The pips for ranks is a good thing, eventually everyone who loves and plays the game mode gets rewarded more. The people upset whining about it is like me complaining that the senior guy at my job makes more money than me. progression based rewards are a good thing, its literally how the rest of life retains their senior members.

I dont think there is a middle ground.

Basically what this thread wants is a paradox.

Wvwers wanted rewards for rank.
Rank takes a long time to get.
New ppl want these same rewards without the need for rank.

Anets has already done about all they can do to try and middle ground. The legendary is easier to obtain than ascended(pve candy). Ascended requires medium rank (wvwer candy) legendary no rank. Pips and reward track vary by rank so even low ranks get reward chests. Imagine if only your pip chests were hard gated(rank req).

So. The most egalitarian thing would be to remove pip system and rank gate the armor and legendary. Remove skirkish tickets amd use badges instead.

Yeah, some ppl will be wearing all the armor tomorrow but atleast no more pip farming and pip complaining.

The result would then be these same ppl complaining about the badge cost and rank req then of course the answer is “go get em” as they arent rank gated unlike tickets.

As far as rank req for cool stuff I dont see a solution. See paradox above.

Ok…so…

Lets say you have never tried peanut butter. You have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to try some peanut butter. You think “ok sure, what is there to lose?” and you happen to like peanut butter, and now you enjoy eating peanut butter often!

According to you, there’s an inherent problem somewhere in this scenario.

Now lets try a different exercise, which is what the current reward system may be providing:

You’ve never tried peanut butter, you have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to eat nothing but peanut butter for every meal for the next week. You decide that it might not be best for you to even try peanut butter, because the means are not worth the reward.

So where is this “inherent” problem you see? Is it with the 5 dollar reward? Is it with me for offering too much money? Too little money? Is it with you, deciding whether or not to try peanut butter? Is it with the peanut butter itself? Is it with the people who already like peanut butter? Please explain, because your posts have been incredibly vague.

Your analogy is not exactly great.

The problem is how easily you want to give that 5$. Not that there is a 5$ inside the can of peanut butter. Beside, if you can’t even be bothered trying something that is under your nose for free the problem is not the game, it is you.

Still, you ask for a deeper explanations so…

If you give 5$ almost right away, you will have tons of people taking the money and little who will likely stick with the peanut butter. The law of large numbers will indeed yield new legit players, but at a cost for the community. What is that cost you ask and how is it inherently a problem?

The cost is how many carrot chasers are going to flood the game along the legit wvw lovers until they get their 5$ and how their play style and motivation will impact the fun of others negatively (see pvp, see EoTM).

As long as your external reward is what motivate your presence, it will impact how you will contribute inside the game in quantity and in quality. In quantity, because no reward = no player. In quality, because your decisions in the game will be oriented toward ticket maximization rather than the benefit of your team.

The dependancy to something other than the game itself is the inherent problem. On top of it, your very existance will impact others motivation to play.

Put simply, it isn’t your peanut butter can. It is everyone’s peanut butter can. And as such, I care how you plunder it.

I have no problem with any motivation to play any game as long as it doesn’t impact negatively the motivation of others. If you can manage to get motivated by a skin without any negative impact on others, I’m all for it… And If someone does not care about other’s motivations, why should we care about their’s?

Again, if it was a tier of equipment that was locked behind this game mode, we would not have this discussion. But it is not. It is merely a skin meant to be a reward for those who have invested significant amount of time in the game.

Another update to pip acquisition could be a true loyalty bonus. Do the 3 weeks part but then add 1 pip per 3 months a player has been on a server – and make it retroactive. Max it out at a 3 or 4 pip bonus. This will help newcomers who have never left their servers.

+1 Bronze WvW Rank (150-619)
+2 Silver WvW Rank (620-1394)
+3 Gold WvW Rank (1395-2544)
+4 Platinum WvW Rank (2545-4094)
+5 Mithril WvW Rank (4095-6444)
+6 Diamond WvW Rank (6445-9999)
+7 Max WvW Rank (10000)

This should be
+1 Bronze WvW Rank (100-1000)
+2 Silver WvW Rank (1001-5000)
+3 Gold WvW Rank (5001-10000)

I don’t mind a small boost, but the current boost is ridiculous.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Wvwers wanted rewards for rank.
Rank takes a long time to get.
New ppl want these same rewards without the need for rank.

Wrong. Please re-read the majority of this thread.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok…so…

Lets say you have never tried peanut butter. You have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to try some peanut butter. You think “ok sure, what is there to lose?” and you happen to like peanut butter, and now you enjoy eating peanut butter often!

According to you, there’s an inherent problem somewhere in this scenario.

Now lets try a different exercise, which is what the current reward system may be providing:

You’ve never tried peanut butter, you have no interest in trying peanut butter on your own, as it didn’t seem like something you’d like. I offer to pay you 5 dollars to eat nothing but peanut butter for every meal for the next week. You decide that it might not be best for you to even try peanut butter, because the means are not worth the reward.

So where is this “inherent” problem you see? Is it with the 5 dollar reward? Is it with me for offering too much money? Too little money? Is it with you, deciding whether or not to try peanut butter? Is it with the peanut butter itself? Is it with the people who already like peanut butter? Please explain, because your posts have been incredibly vague.

Your analogy is not exactly great.

The problem is how easily you want to give that 5$. Not that there is a 5$ inside the can of peanut butter. Beside, if you can’t even be bothered trying something that is under your nose for free the problem is not the game, it is you.

Still, you ask for a deeper explanations so…

If you give 5$ almost right away, you will have tons of people taking the money and little who will likely stick with the peanut butter. The law of large numbers will indeed yield new legit players, but at a cost for the community. What is that cost you ask and how is it inherently a problem?

The cost is how many carrot chasers are going to flood the game along the legit wvw lovers until they get their 5$ and how their play style and motivation will impact the fun of others negatively (see pvp, see EoTM).

As long as your external reward is what motivate your presence, it will impact how you will contribute inside the game in quantity and in quality. In quantity, because no reward = no player. In quality, because your decisions in the game will be oriented toward ticket maximization rather than the benefit of your team.

The dependancy to something other than the game itself is the inherent problem. On top of it, your very existance will impact others motivation to play.

Put simply, it isn’t your peanut butter can. It is everyone’s peanut butter can. And as such, I care how you plunder it.

I have no problem with any motivation to play any game as long as it doesn’t impact negatively the motivation of others. If you can manage to get motivated by a skin without any negative impact on others, I’m all for it… And If someone does not care about other’s motivations, why should we care about their’s?

Again, if it was a tier of equipment that was locked behind this game mode, we would not have this discussion. But it is not. It is merely a skin meant to be a reward for those who have invested significant amount of time in the game.

My analogy was fine. You fabricated extra variables that catered to your personal bias. And after all that, you failed to answer where the inherent problem was with my scenario. You merely showed a problem with one of your own plugged variables – The only reason I stepped foot into WvW was for map completion for a legendary weapon (gasp, a reward!). If that reward was never available, I wouldn’t think I’d ever have an interest in WvW, and never would have loaded it up, met friends, joined guilds, and became a loyal member of my World.

So….your inherent problem doesn’t include any backup or logic what-so-ever.

Now you speak as though all of the WvW Vets currently are not trying to maximize their tickets after this update. Which is wrong, I’m willing to bet that almost all WvW Vets first and foremost priority when they log in, is to get to Tier3 Participation, then go about doing their normal. You think they’re doing anything more than a newbie pip farmer on their way to that T3 Participation? No. And guess who I see AFK at the entries of the BL’s, taking up space because they want to maximize those pips? Veteran players, whose names I recognize from seeing on a regular basis over the years. Much, much, MUCH more veteran players AFKing than newbie players.

You also keep throwing around more of your personal bias as though it were law: Its just skins, not a “tier” of equipment. Hey, wake up. An overwhelmingly large portion of this game is about skins. Legendary weapons are simply skins, since their stats don’t differ from ascended. All raid rewards are simply…skins.
Get off your pedestal, please.

So back to the original question I have posed many times, and many selfish individuals have avoided directly answering…And now that you hopefully see that its equal part veteran players, if not more, taking part in what you deem detrimental to the game mode…

What justification is there to turn away potential new recruits by locking their motivation behind an incredible number of hours that are unhealthy to any individual?

Or are you simply blind to the fact that you and your fellow veteran players are guilty of the very thing you claim to be concerned about. Because I don’t believe for one second, that someone who cares enough to visit the forums and oppose the fun of others, is not also AFK in spawn while their participation drops.

Pips are fine, the only thing that probably gives too much is outnumbered

Outnumbered pips should be dependent on how how long you have been on that map during that skirmish not for just popping in and getting lucky.

For those of us who remain on a map to defend areas, refresh siege, escort dolyaks, build siege, take back camps we should get some reward/participation points for doing the maintenance things that need doing. Defense things should count for participation and pips as well.

Outnumbered pips should be granted for remaining on a map for a certain amount of time while outnumbered even if the outnumbered comes and goes throughout the skirmish. I have watched the outnumbered buff come and go within a skirmish as people hop around looking to get that outnumbered buff especially as a skirmish reaches the end of the time. Those of us who stayed to defend etc. while outnumbered lose because of the map hopping going on. It certainly does not give any incentive to remain and defend when you get little to no reward or participation for doing so.

PabbyGaul.9682:

I dont think there is a middle ground.

Basically what this thread wants is a paradox.

Wvwers wanted rewards for rank.
Rank takes a long time to get.
New ppl want these same rewards without the need for rank.

No, there is a middle ground, don’t touch the rank requirement (that is the token of vets experience), even increase it if needed, and instead fix wvw tickets issue and make them on par with other modes.

Rank 350 is ridiculous anyway, by the time you get to 16 weeks of diamond you’ll have reached 350, easy.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Yeah, some ppl will be wearing all the armor tomorrow but atleast no more pip farming and pip complaining.
The result would then be these same ppl complaining about the badge cost and rank req then of course the answer is “go get em” as they arent rank gated unlike tickets.

I for one would not complain about that. I have no problem getting ranks and not having to think about pips, makes the experience more enjoyable and you get them at your own speed.

Keep the pips rewards and rank pips reward for skirmish chests as well if you need to, just the wvw tickets need fixing.

PabbyGaul.9682:

I dont think there is a middle ground.

Basically what this thread wants is a paradox.

Wvwers wanted rewards for rank.
Rank takes a long time to get.
New ppl want these same rewards without the need for rank.

Anets has already done about all they can do to try and middle ground. The legendary is easier to obtain than ascended(pve candy). Ascended requires medium rank (wvwer candy) legendary no rank. Pips and reward track vary by rank so even low ranks get reward chests. Imagine if only your pip chests were hard gated(rank req).

So. The most egalitarian thing would be to remove pip system and rank gate the armor and legendary. Remove skirkish tickets amd use badges instead.

Yeah, some ppl will be wearing all the armor tomorrow but atleast no more pip farming and pip complaining.

The result would then be these same ppl complaining about the badge cost and rank req then of course the answer is “go get em” as they arent rank gated unlike tickets.

As far as rank req for cool stuff I dont see a solution. See paradox above.

There are new players that just think the rate at which PIPS are earned is slightly off and that bumping the base by a small number would be enough. So there is a middle ground.

Turk.5460:

My analogy was fine. You fabricated extra variables that catered to your personal bias. And after all that, you failed to answer where the inherent problem was with my scenario. You merely showed a problem with one of your own plugged variables – The only reason I stepped foot into WvW was for map completion for a legendary weapon (gasp, a reward!). If that reward was never available, I wouldn’t think I’d ever have an interest in WvW, and never would have loaded it up, met friends, joined guilds, and became a loyal member of my World.

So….your inherent problem doesn’t include any backup or logic what-so-ever.

Now you speak as though all of the WvW Vets currently are not trying to maximize their tickets after this update. Which is wrong, I’m willing to bet that almost all WvW Vets first and foremost priority when they log in, is to get to Tier3 Participation, then go about doing their normal. You think they’re doing anything more than a newbie pip farmer on their way to that T3 Participation? No. And guess who I see AFK at the entries of the BL’s, taking up space because they want to maximize those pips? Veteran players, whose names I recognize from seeing on a regular basis over the years. Much, much, MUCH more veteran players AFKing than newbie players.

You also keep throwing around more of your personal bias as though it were law: Its just skins, not a “tier” of equipment. Hey, wake up. An overwhelmingly large portion of this game is about skins. Legendary weapons are simply skins, since their stats don’t differ from ascended. All raid rewards are simply…skins.
Get off your pedestal, please.

So back to the original question I have posed many times, and many selfish individuals have avoided directly answering…And now that you hopefully see that its equal part veteran players, if not more, taking part in what you deem detrimental to the game mode…

What justification is there to turn away potential new recruits by locking their motivation behind an incredible number of hours that are unhealthy to any individual?

Or are you simply blind to the fact that you and your fellow veteran players are guilty of the very thing you claim to be concerned about. Because I don’t believe for one second, that someone who cares enough to visit the forums and oppose the fun of others, is not also AFK in spawn while their participation drops.

At this point I don’t know what to say because, even after re-reading, I do not see the extra variables you are referring to, nor what is so hard to understand about the problem generated by an external motivator: Quantity and quality of play time being dependant on something other than the game itself leading to a negative experience for others.

You believe veterans have the exact same motivation and play style as people who are in solely for the carrot? Maybe some do even though they had to like the game for what it was before since there was no such reward for years.

That being said, since I can only talk about myself, I can say I won’t make a maximizing move if it’s going to be at the server’s expense. I also do not care if I do not reach ticket cap each week and I’m level 3k+.

The justification to turn away new players using an external motivator is that the gain won’t be worth the loss. I have no reasons to beleive what happened with pvp and EoTM isn’t likely to happen to WvW.

I’d rather maill you all whatever skins you want for free rather than having a bunch of ticket scavengers poping tags, afking, and hoping maps regardless of their ability to lead or answer the need of the moment.

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Wvwers wanted rewards for rank.
Rank takes a long time to get.
New ppl want these same rewards without the need for rank.

Wrong. Please re-read the majority of this thread.

Please understand that: tickets = pips = rank = shinies. The whole thread is about pips, especially base pips.

Ppl want less spread..why?

Double base pips, then double for every category. Sounds good Ill get a pip chest every 8 min then. I can max out my track after 5hrs of play for the week.

What about ppl in mithril rank..diamond rank? Theyll get a chest every 4 min? Be done for the week in a couple hours.

Just bump base pip by one….yea. 2 yrs was a grind but 1 year isnt?

People keep doing these calculations without factoring in their wvw rank increasing as if they wont ever get above 150 or 600. After 3 wks youv’e increased a pip already via wvw rank.

Tickets…yeah its been 3 wks…buying an ascended wvw piece. Yeah it takes longer than when I make one..depending but also is “free” rather than waiting for an ascended drop and I get to pick stats. Might be craptastic in pve but its absoluetly awesome in wvw that I can get an ascended armor or weapon after a few weeks. of just playing. Im extatic that I dont have to drop hundreds of gold to make ascended. Working for me.

Yeah. I’ve read the thread. Mostly whining about how unobtainable the rewards are and how wvw is deadgamemode cuz no rewards. Lotsa math with no models for rank gain and pip aquisition and time to tickets showing rewards along the way. Its alot of focus on goal and complaining about the journey.

Could the journey be shorter? Sure. For many it will be. For others its a long road and it should be because if it was as short and easy as other game modes ppl would be farming wvw. Ask anyone what wvw is like when the rewards are thw focus. Its kitten. The game mode does not lend itself to farming. When rewards > winning wvw becomes crap and = eotm.

I would bet that if wvw really needed a bump wvwers could go out into pve and zerg maps and recruit. It would likely be more effective than rewards. I know because before mega server we did just that. We had “Help a PvE’er” night. We’d find some poor unsuspecting pveer in queens dale and zerg down whatever he needed down…alot of drinking was involved.

Here some stats

PabbyGaul.9682:

Here some stats

Nice chart! Aren’t there only 12 skirmishes per hour, though…1 every 5 mins?

- Reduce outnumbered pip to 3 OR give 1-3 pips(camp,tower,keep respectively) when you capture something while you have the outnumbered buff.
- Add to the commitment pip based on how long you’ve been on the same server.
- Add gold to the chests.(diamond, mithril, gold, ect and obviously within reason)
- Give bonus tickets at the end of the week based on how your server placed.
- Give tickets on repeat completions of the diamond chests.

These are the changes I would make.

Only outnumbered buffs needs to go. Everything else is fine.

HIGHER RANK SHOULD GIVE MORE PIPS STOP WHINING ABOUT IT. ITS FAIR TO THOSE WHO PLAYED THE MODE FOR YEARS!

Interessant : wenn Lappen darüber weinen dass die bekackte pip verteilung nicht ok ist weil sie nicht wie tausende andere ziemlich scheiss lange wvw gespielt haben meldet sich n spezial dev .. der ganze andere kitten z.B die balance betreffend .. den condi-op rotz mal bissl anzupassen das interessiert keinen und die deutschen Foren sind schon lange tot .. entwder ist Domke zu blöd oder zu mundtot gemacht ..GG ANET !!

Sylvyn.4750:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Here some stats

Nice chart! Aren’t there only 12 skirmishes per hour, though…1 every 5 mins?

In that case lol here

my problem with the current system is that it punished new players.
We are being actively pushed out, because if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.
I think it would be more than fair that if at friday you havent completed the wooden chest, your pips don’t reset. Either that, or evenly distribute the rewards over the subchests. At least then there’s a prospect of progress.
To give a short anagram:

John has worked for Records for 5 years, he’s a veteran, and makes 4 euros per hour.
Jack has worked for Records for a few months now, he’s adapted to the world, but as a novice, he’s paid 2 euros per hour, sometimes only 1 euro per hour if his colleagues are slacking, meaning he’s punished for their negligence.
The boss of Records doesn’t want to pay out the wages if the wage is less than a 100 euros. either you get a checque for the full wage, or he wont pay you anything at all, even if you did the same amount of work.

So, John works for 20 hours, and has therefore earned the 100 euro check of his wage. The boss signs the checque, and he can collect his wage. Jack also works 20 hours, but he only made 30 to 50 euros on his clock, so the boss says “I don’t care how hard you work, if I have to pay you less than 100 euros, ’m not paying you at all”, so Jack goes home tired and sore, knowing he didn’t make a dime during the 20 hours, goes to sleep hungry, frustrated, and tired, while John down the corridor is throwing a party.

The next week, John goes back to work, and works another 25 hours to make sure he hits 50 euros. He walks up to his boss and asks for the pay now, but the boss says “nooo, you can’t make the wage in two sessions, you have to make the wage in one go. On friday I reset the clocks, so you gotta make the 100 euros in one week, but if you have trouble getting that in 20 hours, why not work for 50 hours, maybe 60, you don’t need sleep, you don’t need a social life, just lock yourself into the office and work until you’ve made a 100 euros”

Amaimon.7823:

my problem with the current system is that it punished new players.
We are being actively pushed out, because if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.
I think it would be more than fair that if at friday you havent completed the wooden chest, your pips don’t reset. Either that, or evenly distribute the rewards over the subchests. At least then there’s a prospect of progress.
To give a short anagram:

John has worked for Records for 5 years, he’s a veteran, and makes 4 euros per hour.
Jack has worked for Records for a few months now, he’s adapted to the world, but as a novice, he’s paid 2 euros per hour, sometimes only 1 euro per hour if his colleagues are slacking, meaning he’s punished for their negligence.
The boss of Records doesn’t want to pay out the wages if the wage is less than a 100 euros. either you get a checque for the full wage, or he wont pay you anything at all, even if you did the same amount of work.

So, John works for 20 hours, and has therefore earned the 100 euro check of his wage. The boss signs the checque, and he can collect his wage. Jack also works 20 hours, but he only made 30 to 50 euros on his clock, so the boss says “I don’t care how hard you work, if I have to pay you less than 100 euros, ’m not paying you at all”, so Jack goes home tired and sore, knowing he didn’t make a dime during the 20 hours, goes to sleep hungry, frustrated, and tired, while John down the corridor is throwing a party.

The next week, John goes back to work, and works another 25 hours to make sure he hits 50 euros. He walks up to his boss and asks for the pay now, but the boss says “nooo, you can’t make the wage in two sessions, you have to make the wage in one go. On friday I reset the clocks, so you gotta make the 100 euros in one week, but if you have trouble getting that in 20 hours, why not work for 50 hours, maybe 60, you don’t need sleep, you don’t need a social life, just lock yourself into the office and work until you’ve made a 100 euros”

Yes but in this case, not having the shiny doesn’t mean you’re starving.

John, Jack and everyone else each live in nice homes, have full bellies. The only difference is that John has red shoes, while Jack and a few others have yellow shoes.

Hey, here’s an idea, can you get the “play for skin shaming” in another thread? That would sanitize this one and let people actually talk about the inherent issues of the current system.

No matter how hard you try to make it sound like, wanting rewards is not the problem. Both sides want them so quit with the hypocrisy around rewards. If people were “just playing for fun” they wouldn’t give a kitten about this thread or finding middle ground. Wake up.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The justification to turn away new players using an external motivator is that the gain won’t be worth the loss. I have no reasons to beleive what happened with pvp and EoTM isn’t likely to happen to WvW.

It already hasn’t…so…I don’t know what to tell you here. You’re waiting for a problem that was purely speculative, and has not, nor will happen.

Update launched, people flooded in, maps other than EBG were queued (having map queues is a good thing, more experienced WvW’ers like myself easily understand that), morale was, and still is up (on the 3 worlds I play on), a whole lot of people were hooked and have since been recruited into WvW guilds. And none of them would have stepped foot in here without that carrot. I think you’re just arguing and complaining for the sake of being stubborn, as none of the points you are poorly trying to defend make moral or logical sense for the good of WvW.

And then there came the whispers of AFK pip farming. Yeah, guess what, more than half of those AFK pip farmers that I saw, were people who had already been playing WvW. Whose experience are you trying to defend again?

Take a look at this forum, how many complaints were there when the update rolled out pertaining to actual new players in the way that you fear will absolutely destroy your WvW experience? I…don’t actually think there were any. All of the threads regarding this update were focused on the flaws of the reward system.

Amaimon.7823:

if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.

No need for the hyperbole. I finished Silver on an account with rank 780 in 6-8 hours of WvW by getting either 3 pips per tick (2 for rank, 1 for third place) or 8 with outnumbered buff.

At lowest pip…2. Per tick one must wvw 5 hrs a week. I would agree that wood tier might want to tier out the tickets…3 per tier….?

What is middle ground? I want the time gate because it helps keep reward farmers out. I like rewards but too much ruins the game mode through excessive queues even on moderate population servers in prime time.

Middle ground to me is minor tweaks only.

Halve outnumbered, lock out the pips when map hopping for one participation tick. Please make it more variable.
Personal rank is too high, cut it down too. It can be paired up for pips. Bronze/silver 1, gold/plat 2 and mithril/diamond 3. It is still a nod to vets who stuck with the gamemode buy it isn’t on sided as it was.
To compensate the reduction, make server rank in skirmish 3,4,5.

I get 6-8 pips a tick, this would put me at 6 to 8 pips still. I know plenty of long time vets who are still bronze,silver and gold ranks so this doesn’t nerf the vets. People who play in the more zergy and karma train heavy communities may see a hit, but i would rather see this baseline increase that makes newcomers feel less disadvantaged. This also is more alt account friendly. The sheer number of pips that the upper echelon of ranks get atm really is counterproductive to what arenanet was hoping to achieve with this system. Rather I than promote more activity from your high ranked it indirectly tells them they played enough for the week.

Ticket acquisition and gear rank requirements are different issues and shouldn’t be part of this discussion.

I finished wood last week and this week on all three of my accounts and 2 of them are below rank 325. Though come Friday the lowest of them having commitment may be for naught depending on the host that gets chosen. Not because the host might do poorly mind you, but because after a year, there’s just not many hosts I like anymore and I’d really like linkings to be undone. But, after a year linkings are still a thing just as pips/tickets, reward requirements and rank advantages will be too after a year.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Sylvyn.4750:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Here some stats

Nice chart! Aren’t there only 12 skirmishes per hour, though…1 every 5 mins?

In that case lol here

Thanks!

When you switch maps (including leaving WvW altogether), you should lose ALL participation, right back to Tier 1. This would make participation map based, rather than WvW based. You want to switch maps to get pips, avoid enemy zergs, help another map etc? That should be the cost. Only takes capturing a camp and a couple of kills to get participation back up to T3 anyway. Heck. this is already implemented in HoT PvE zones.

That would leave only the afk issue. I would be in favor of a multiple step solution here:
1. when you have the determined buff for 2 minutes, participation drops to T1 (eg. no pips). This would prevent afkers at spawn.

2. when you use a waypoint, including from a death, participation drops to T2. This would prevent immediate pips, but force people to make a kill/capture or two to get it above the T3 threshold to get the pips going again.

3. Make idling more damaging to participation levels. If, in the 5-minute pip interval you did not do anything to get anything to boost particpation (eg. no kills, no captures, etc), you get the normal amount of pips for that interval and immediately drop down to T1 participation. This would, at most, force people to not afk for longer than 5 minutes or get the pips for that one interval with no pip generation after that until they build back up to T3 participation. this would help with the afkers in captured keeps/towers without the determined buff.

Maybe not perfect, but would promote a more active method of getting pips rather than getting to T6 then sitting in spawn or tower for 10 minutes getting free pips and being useless and taking up space in the queue.

Amaimon.7823:

my problem with the current system is that it punished new players.
We are being actively pushed out, because if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.
I think it would be more than fair that if at friday you havent completed the wooden chest, your pips don’t reset. Either that, or evenly distribute the rewards over the subchests. At least then there’s a prospect of progress.
To give a short anagram:

John has worked for Records for 5 years, he’s a veteran, and makes 4 euros per hour.
Jack has worked for Records for a few months now, he’s adapted to the world, but as a novice, he’s paid 2 euros per hour, sometimes only 1 euro per hour if his colleagues are slacking, meaning he’s punished for their negligence.
The boss of Records doesn’t want to pay out the wages if the wage is less than a 100 euros. either you get a checque for the full wage, or he wont pay you anything at all, even if you did the same amount of work.

So, John works for 20 hours, and has therefore earned the 100 euro check of his wage. The boss signs the checque, and he can collect his wage. Jack also works 20 hours, but he only made 30 to 50 euros on his clock, so the boss says “I don’t care how hard you work, if I have to pay you less than 100 euros, ’m not paying you at all”, so Jack goes home tired and sore, knowing he didn’t make a dime during the 20 hours, goes to sleep hungry, frustrated, and tired, while John down the corridor is throwing a party.

The next week, John goes back to work, and works another 25 hours to make sure he hits 50 euros. He walks up to his boss and asks for the pay now, but the boss says “nooo, you can’t make the wage in two sessions, you have to make the wage in one go. On friday I reset the clocks, so you gotta make the 100 euros in one week, but if you have trouble getting that in 20 hours, why not work for 50 hours, maybe 60, you don’t need sleep, you don’t need a social life, just lock yourself into the office and work until you’ve made a 100 euros”

I am well below rank 3000. I am well below rank 300. I have managed to complete the wooden chest each week playing casually. I have a full time job that, with commute, takes up as much as 16 hours of my day some days and as little as 10 hours others. I am also married and spend time with my wife. I really dont understand how you can imagine that it is impossible to complete the wooden chest in a week if I can do so.

Deihnyx.6318:

Hey, here’s an idea, can you get the “play for skin shaming” in another thread? That would sanitize this one and let people actually talk about the inherent issues of the current system.

No matter how hard you try to make it sound like, wanting rewards is not the problem. Both sides want them so quit with the hypocrisy around rewards. If people were “just playing for fun” they wouldn’t give a kitten about this thread or finding middle ground. Wake up.

Wanting rewards is absolutely the problem.

Trying to skew the subject because it doesn’t agree with your agenda is straw man.

Telling people to “wake up” is just rude.

Why can’t you accept that there might be one thing you can’t have immediately?

It’s not like you’re being prohibited from getting it.

And therein is where your argument fails.

Ashen.2907:

Amaimon.7823:

my problem with the current system is that it punished new players.
We are being actively pushed out, because if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.
I think it would be more than fair that if at friday you havent completed the wooden chest, your pips don’t reset. Either that, or evenly distribute the rewards over the subchests. At least then there’s a prospect of progress.
To give a short anagram:

John has worked for Records for 5 years, he’s a veteran, and makes 4 euros per hour.
Jack has worked for Records for a few months now, he’s adapted to the world, but as a novice, he’s paid 2 euros per hour, sometimes only 1 euro per hour if his colleagues are slacking, meaning he’s punished for their negligence.
The boss of Records doesn’t want to pay out the wages if the wage is less than a 100 euros. either you get a checque for the full wage, or he wont pay you anything at all, even if you did the same amount of work.

So, John works for 20 hours, and has therefore earned the 100 euro check of his wage. The boss signs the checque, and he can collect his wage. Jack also works 20 hours, but he only made 30 to 50 euros on his clock, so the boss says “I don’t care how hard you work, if I have to pay you less than 100 euros, ’m not paying you at all”, so Jack goes home tired and sore, knowing he didn’t make a dime during the 20 hours, goes to sleep hungry, frustrated, and tired, while John down the corridor is throwing a party.

The next week, John goes back to work, and works another 25 hours to make sure he hits 50 euros. He walks up to his boss and asks for the pay now, but the boss says “nooo, you can’t make the wage in two sessions, you have to make the wage in one go. On friday I reset the clocks, so you gotta make the 100 euros in one week, but if you have trouble getting that in 20 hours, why not work for 50 hours, maybe 60, you don’t need sleep, you don’t need a social life, just lock yourself into the office and work until you’ve made a 100 euros”

I am well below rank 3000. I am well below rank 300. I have managed to complete the wooden chest each week playing casually. I have a full time job that, with commute, takes up as much as 16 hours of my day some days and as little as 10 hours others. I am also married and spend time with my wife. I really dont understand how you can imagine that it is impossible to complete the wooden chest in a week if I can do so.

Like much of europe he works at it less than 5hrs a week.

Jk:)

Oh for crying out loud, you can complete wood and most of bronze on a Friday night in a matter of 4 hours on a bronze (3 hours on a gold) just by soli roaming.
Alternately, if you don’t want to give up your Friday playing you can complete wood on a Saturday night almost as quick too. If neither day suits you then yes, you will likely spend longer trying to get through your pip track.

New PvE-Transfers: We demand the same rewards! This is discimination, we should have the same Pip ticks.

~You’re right, it is discrimination. Truly it is against the people that avoided the mode, and left it abandoned for quite a few years that come in only when there is an abundance of rewards they or you feel entitled to for minimal effort.

You didn’t put time into WvW, you waited until it looked juicy for your account wallet. So no – you do not “deserve” the same reward, you are not ‘entitled’ to the same reward, and you have earned less than what Anet has given you for wandering into a mode and contributing as little as possible (Including AFK pip-ticking).

While there are those people that used EotM to gain diamond, myself not included – spent probably less than 20hrs there, no reward systems are without imperfection. However, the fact remains EotM is a version of WvW – more for newcomers and leveling (Previously). So if Person-x has spent 500hrs there for ranks, I don’t personally find it offensive and outrageous as some of you level 20 nubs do. Go earn something in
the game instead of begging.

Also, im not diamond and still dont care.

would be nice to get ticket cap every week without having to spend 30-40 hrs per week in wvw (like a full time job), which mostly involves standing around most of the time – pvd + standing in circles.

figure out another way to reward wvw vets. Don’t make high rank reward = lower ranks detriment. (essentially having a high rank is a lifting of the low rank “pip handicap,” baseline.)

WarHawk.1892:

New PvE-Transfers: We demand the same rewards! This is discimination, we should have the same Pip ticks.

~You’re right, it is discrimination. Truly it is against the people that avoided the mode, and left it abandoned for quite a few years that come in only when there is an abundance of rewards they or you feel entitled to for minimal effort.

You didn’t put time into WvW, you waited until it looked juicy for your account wallet. So no – you do not “deserve” the same reward, you are not ‘entitled’ to the same reward, and you have earned less than what Anet has given you for wandering into a mode and contributing as little as possible (Including AFK pip-ticking).

While there are those people that used EotM to gain diamond, myself not included – spent probably less than 20hrs there, no reward systems are without imperfection. However, the fact remains EotM is a version of WvW – more for newcomers and leveling (Previously). So if Person-x has spent 500hrs there for ranks, I don’t personally find it offensive and outrageous as some of you level 20 nubs do. Go earn something in
the game instead of begging.

Also, im not diamond and still dont care.

This speech works for all modes. Unless you can prove wvw is more worthy of such a privilege. You’re also making the point of a lot of people talking penalizing people instead of rewarding vets.

Time spent for years = rank. Ranks are fine. Timegated tickets are not. There is no issues with asking high ranks (at least for most people here) but timegated wvw tickets is not fine.
No other mode implements timegated elements this way. It was demonstrated and debunked.

I like the idea of a reward curve. All though, one could argue whether it should be this steep and unrewarding for new players.
In any case, a change to help new players is fine as long as this doesn’t turn into another handout. Any reward in this game is just a matter of time if you like the content you play. But people want stuff handed to them without a need to even play and they refuse to understand why unique rewards exist. This is just “easy mode raids” all over again.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

would be nice to get ticket cap every week without having to spend 30-40 hrs per week in wvw (like a full time job), which mostly involves standing around most of the time – pvd + standing in circles.

figure out another way to reward wvw vets. Don’t make high rank reward = lower ranks detriment. (essentially having a high rank is a lifting of the low rank “pip handicap,” baseline.)

30-40hrs?? Gob smacked. I suggest that you don’t know how to wvw or you exaggerate much.

I run up to 15 hrs /week with my wvw guild, which does NOT involve pvd or standing in circles and easily finish diamond with a couple of days to spare on a T4 server!! We seek out fights, take objectives to provoke epic fights getting lots of kills and bags plus have alot of fun on the way.

Either the reward is worth your time or its not, same as pvp or pve. It seems to me that the reward is not worth your time so decide and move on….please.

Henry.5713:

I like the idea of a reward curve. All though, one could argue whether it should be this steep and unrewarding for new players.
In any case, a change to help new players is fine as long as this doesn’t turn into another handout. Any reward in this game is just a matter of time if you like the content you play. But people want stuff handed to them without a need to even play and they refuse to understand why unique rewards exist. This is just “easy mode raids” all over again.

Nicely said Henry.