Guild Wars 2

GuardianOMS.8067:

You’re saying you will completely disregard someone who may bring new information and evidence. You’re not debating, you just think you’re right and are being completely ignorant and oblivious.

You sound like you’re going to have an aneurism on a video game form. Lord DevonCarter has absolved us of all sin, today is a good day, take it down a notch.

I heard what he said. I just completely disagree with it, what more do you want me to say? I think people are purposely trying to prevent PvEers from getting the achievement. I’ve stated my reasons for thinking this. I think most people agree with that assumption as well, and are just a little to hard-headed to admit it. If this was truly about WvW, then they would be contributing to the overall success of there server, instead of camping a JP…

Sorry if I come across as “having an aneurysm” that was not intended. In fact, I’m pretty calm. And like I’ve said before, I have the achievement, got it last night. This isn’t me being upset I can’t get the achievement, I already have it. This is me wanting people to admit that they are not simply “playing how they always play.” A ten year old could see through that paper-thin argument. People are purposely going into this JP to cause other players grief, and make it difficult for them to attain something. That is all.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

I’m sorry but there is a difference between killing players in WvW and griefing.

If someone camps the entrance and kill people as they come in? Fine. If someone is standing on top of for example the arena and keeps people in combat continuously it’s borderline griefing.

EDIT: Believe me, either way I don’t care. It’s just about whether or not you condone griefing as a form of PvP.

There is PVP and then there is griefing. They are two seperate things. If you have two people or groups go head to head, that is pvp. When you have specific choke points being camped and killing other players when they cannot fight back, that is grieifing. I am sorry, there is no other way about it.
Also people should show some class when it comes to PVP. If you want to PVP in there, fine, do it, but if some one does not even fight back, let them go, what is the point? I tried to do this yesterday. I was on a ledge and suddenly was trying to be pulled off by a mesmer and a group of 3 others below the ledge. I waited there for 5min knowing that I would die if I engaged and I was not there for the fight. I thought they would just leave. Nope they finally managed to pull me off the ledge and kill me. Now tell me, what fun is that?

Sardonia.8196:

There is PVP and then there is griefing. They are two seperate things. If you have two people or groups go head to head, that is pvp. When you have specific choke points being camped and killing other players when they cannot fight back, that is grieifing. I am sorry, there is no other way about it.
Also people should show some class when it comes to PVP. If you want to PVP in there, fine, do it, but if some one does not even fight back, let them go, what is the point? I tried to do this yesterday. I was on a ledge and suddenly was trying to be pulled off by a mesmer and a group of 3 others below the ledge. I waited there for 5min knowing that I would die if I engaged and I was not there for the fight. I thought they would just leave. Nope they finally managed to pull me off the ledge and kill me. Now tell me, what fun is that?

Both your examples are pvp. The fact that one side is incapable of defeating the other side does not make it griefing. It just means they are losing, and should either bring more friends or come back later. I have been part of numerically inferior groups taking out campers back when they were allowed to use siege weaponry. So don’t tell me it can’t be done. If you can’t do it that’s just you lacking the motivation to put in the effort required or skill to pull it off.

Please Anet keep doing this, maybe even place another achievement on the JP for each borderland.

This is just getting old and boring, what about the people that don’t like to PvE? Should they also spam the forums asking for the removal of every achievement or that they should be placed in WvW?

If you are having that much trouble to get there try going in non-prime hours, at least for our server there is 0 (yes, ZERO) coverage at night. It’s a PvP zone after all so you shouldn’t expect everyone to be kind when they see enemies (there are no rules in PvP).

ghost.3208:

Please Anet keep doing this, maybe even place another achievement on the JP for each borderland.

So instead of remedying the problem you think they should aggravate it more? Bad idea.

ghost.3208:

This is just getting old and boring, what about the people that don’t like to PvE? Should they also spam the forums asking for the removal of every achievement or that they should be placed in WvW?

We’re not asking for it to be removed. We’re requesting politely that they not put what is otherwise entirely PvE content in Obsidian Sanctum again. It’s not that much of a request.

And before you jump on me as many have, yes I got the achievement already. My request isn’t due to a personal inability to get it. It’s a request based on what would make a better community. Because you cannot look at all of these threads and honestly say that the community is better for these achievements. It’s not. It’s worse and PvEers and WvWers are only disliking each other more and more.

If the goal was to get PvE players interested in WvW, then it failed miserably as most of those PvE players will never again want to touch WvW with a ten-foot pole.

Letting enemies through is griefing your server mates. Those red names are going to attack your allies on top. The achievement does not excuse anyone from pvp battles in the pvp zone.

SynfulChaot.3169:

We’re not asking for it to be removed. We’re requesting politely that they not put what is otherwise entirely PvE content in Obsidian Sanctum again. It’s not that much of a request.

An achievement isn’t PvE content, it can be anything. There’s PvP achievements, PvE outdoor achievements, social achievements, tutorial achievements, WvW achievements.

ANet placed a PvP achievement at the end of a PvP zone. It means : “Fight or sneak your way through all the hostile players in that map to find the kite at the end”

You have no right to demand that ANet cut down content for us that like PvP which is why people are annoyed by all the complaints.

stof.9341:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We’re not asking for it to be removed. We’re requesting politely that they not put what is otherwise entirely PvE content in Obsidian Sanctum again. It’s not that much of a request.

An achievement isn’t PvE content, it can be anything. There’s PvP achievements, PvE outdoor achievements, social achievements, tutorial achievements, WvW achievements.

ANet placed a PvP achievement at the end of a PvP zone. It means : “Fight or sneak your way through all the hostile players in that map to find the kite at the end”

You have no right to demand that ANet cut down content for us that like PvP which is why people are annoyed by all the complaints.

The rest of the Living Story content is in PvE. This one single one was placed not only in WvW, but in the most grief-prone and rage-inducing location in WvW. Yes, that makes this one PvP. I won’t deny that. But making that one PvP was unnecessary.

That would be like if there was a WvW ‘Living Story’ thing where all of the achievements were in WvW. Except for one that was placed in the Arah dungeon (you know … the most rage-inducing PvE location).

If that happened I know that WvW players would get up in arms. Yet as PvE players we get told off for pointing out the strangeness and seeming inappropriateness of the placement of this content.

And polite request is not a demand. As a customer I have every right to make requests.

SynfulChaot.3169:

ghost.3208:

Please Anet keep doing this, maybe even place another achievement on the JP for each borderland.

So instead of remedying the problem you think they should aggravate it more? Bad idea.

ghost.3208:

This is just getting old and boring, what about the people that don’t like to PvE? Should they also spam the forums asking for the removal of every achievement or that they should be placed in WvW?

We’re not asking for it to be removed. We’re requesting politely that they not put what is otherwise entirely PvE content in Obsidian Sanctum again. It’s not that much of a request.

And before you jump on me as many have, yes I got the achievement already. My request isn’t due to a personal inability to get it. It’s a request based on what would make a better community. Because you cannot look at all of these threads and honestly say that the community is better for these achievements. It’s not. It’s worse and PvEers and WvWers are only disliking each other more and more.

If the goal was to get PvE players interested in WvW, then it failed miserably as most of those PvE players will never again want to touch WvW with a ten-foot pole.

Sure, let’s all be unreasonable. I kindly request for all meta achievements to be removed from PVE zones because, as a PVPer, I find it unfair that I be FORCED to enter pve zones just to have access to new content.

It’s not griefing. If you entered a PVP zone expecting the enemy to hold hands with you then you straight up deserved it. Don’t want to fight? Don’t enter PVP zones. Enter a PVP zone? DON’T FREAKING CRY WHEN YOU DIE.

Anet is forcing WvW’ers to do something they don’t like to do….Camp the JP.

Why. Cause there’s only 2 ways a server increases their coverage. Buy it or recruit it from PvE. This gives a server, even one with lower population, a chance to prevent 2 other servers from gaining players. It’s not about the siege or the badges. It’s about making a PvE player’s experience so bad that they never go to WvW again, ever.

You can kill me in WvW 10,000 times, I’ll still show up the next night.

Deny one PvE player a perfect achievement score and they might never come back.

Don’t blame WvW players for playing the game the way they want to.

Swamurabi.7890:

Anet is forcing WvW’ers to do something they don’t like to do….Camp the JP.

Why. Cause there’s only 2 ways a server increases their coverage. Buy it or recruit it from PvE. This gives a server, even one with lower population, a chance to prevent 2 other servers from gaining players. It’s not about the siege or the badges. It’s about making a PvE player’s experience so bad that they never go to WvW again, ever.

You can kill me in WvW 10,000 times, I’ll still show up the next night.

Deny one PvE player a perfect achievement score and they might never come back.

Don’t blame WvW players for playing the game the way they want to.

That’s getting REALLY far fetched.

Most of the players in the JP are there because you can get fights (well, except those that go there only to do the achievement). Fights that don’t even have much influence on the WvW part itself since the map was split from EB.

fuzzypanda.9365:

… I’ve never seen anyone just camp and troll people in any of the WvW JPs untill this point. ….

But that is one of the favorite sport in WvW for relaxing after a day of sieges! Free bags! </joke>

Seriously, this has happen a lot before. It is the same as killing someone that is getting a view or a PI. It is worse in the JP because the siege rewards at the end: you want them, and you don’t want the enemy to have them.

stof.9341:

Swamurabi.7890:

Anet is forcing WvW’ers to do something they don’t like to do….Camp the JP.

Why. Cause there’s only 2 ways a server increases their coverage. Buy it or recruit it from PvE. This gives a server, even one with lower population, a chance to prevent 2 other servers from gaining players. It’s not about the siege or the badges. It’s about making a PvE player’s experience so bad that they never go to WvW again, ever.

You can kill me in WvW 10,000 times, I’ll still show up the next night.

Deny one PvE player a perfect achievement score and they might never come back.

Don’t blame WvW players for playing the game the way they want to.

That’s getting REALLY far fetched.

Most of the players in the JP are there because you can get fights (well, except those that go there only to do the achievement). Fights that don’t even have much influence on the WvW part itself since the map was split from EB.

The new matchup system has already caused higher ranked servers to push lower ranked servers back to spawn just so they don’t lose ranking. There’s breakout tower camping instead of spawn camping. Siege it up, wait for breakout, get bags.

People camped the JP before it was split off when everyone in the JP took one person away from EB.

Servers change their tactics after every patch, what makes you think they won’t look at the JP as a place just for griefers and PvEers.

I don’t think it’s really constructive to drive the discussion towards the definition of ‘griefing’. Let’s talk about the actual problem.

What i see here is PvEers’ having bad experience, both in getting their living story achievements and in their first taste of WvW. And let’s face it, living story(and associated achievement hunt) is a PvE thing, or at least mostly received as one. Otherwise, ANet did something horribly wrong in either marketing them or composing their contents.

I don’t think the important part is whether Devon agrees with calling this ‘griefing’ or not, or what the intention was when designing Obsidian Sanctum. If your contents, designed to give players fun, are aggravating this many people(very consistently since release as well), something went wrong with your design. Are players just playing it wrong? Are they being wimps? Doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. If this many players don’t like it, if they are not having a good time, you did something wrong.

Why do players have to fight about how it was meant to be played? Shouldn’t those kind of stuffs be clearly communicated by the game itself? Why do we see so many people who let their enemies pass to ‘do the JP’ when it is a PvP zone? Why do we see so many people, even WvW and PvP players, hate on Obsidian Sanctum campers? Why does playing the game as devs intended causes finger pointing? Why is the map so inconsistent with the rest of the game, in that it brings people of conflicting goals and expectations into one place, promotes one-sided unfair fights, often followed by grudges and people calling each other ‘griefers’? Why was it frowned upon to do JP when there is a queue before? If this was to be a part of WvW, why was it split from EB? Why is my post so kitten long?

I just cannot fathom how all the competent people in ANet shipped this full package of confused design while the rest of the game is shimmering with all sorts of smarts. I am sure, for someone who worked hard enough to have a place in ANet office, there could have been smarter ways to do this.(both designing this map, and introducing WvW to Living Story crowd.)

This is coming from a WvW player, before anyone goes ‘go home pve-er!’ on me.

tl;dr – guys don’t fight, let’s blame anet instead!

Vol.5241:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Well for one, they’re not griefers.

And second, if you play WvW, expect to die a lot. If everything was so easy and you never died, what’s the fun in that?

You get killed in EBJ? Bring your friends. At least this time you have a shared interest in doing it.

A group going through the JP in WvW, and simply deciding to fight others who go through it as well is not griefing.
A group just sitting around on their hands inside the JP waiting for others to try to make it through, just so they can kill them and stop them from getting an achievement, is absolutely griefing. That is the very definition of griefing.

Yid.3024:

I don’t think it’s really constructive to drive the discussion towards the definition of ‘griefing’. Let’s talk about the actual problem.

What i see here is PvEers’ having bad experience, both in getting their living story achievements and in their first taste of WvW. And let’s face it, living story(and associated achievement hunt) is a PvE thing, or at least mostly received as one. Otherwise, ANet did something horribly wrong in either marketing them or composing their contents.

I don’t think the important part is whether Devon agrees with calling this ‘griefing’ or not, or what the intention was when designing Obsidian Sanctum. If your contents, designed to give players fun, are aggravating this many people(very consistently since release as well), something went wrong with your design. Are players just playing it wrong? Are they being wimps? Doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. If this many players don’t like it, if they are not having a good time, you did something wrong.

Why do players have to fight about how it was meant to be played? Shouldn’t those kind of stuffs be clearly communicated by the game itself? Why do we see so many people who let their enemies pass to ‘do the JP’ when it is a PvP zone? Why do we see so many people, even WvW and PvP players, hate on Obsidian Sanctum campers? Why does playing the game as devs intended causes finger pointing? Why is the map so inconsistent with the rest of the game, in that it brings people of conflicting goals and expectations into one place, promotes one-sided unfair fights, often followed by grudges and people calling each other ‘griefers’? Why is my post so kitten long?

I just cannot fathom how all the competent people in ANet shipped this full package of confused design while the rest of the game is shimmering with all sorts of smarts. I am sure, for someone who worked hard enough to have a place in ANet office, there could have been smarter ways to do this.(both designing this map, and introducing WvW to Living Story crowd.)

This is coming from a WvW player, before anyone goes ‘go home pve-er!’ on me.

tl;dr – guys don’t fight, let’s blame anet instead!

How it is meant to be played IS clearly communicated. It is clearly a jumping puzzle designed with a pvp aspect. Just because the sheep keep coming to the slaughter does not mean that there is confusion as to whether this is a slaughterhouse or a love-in.

It’s not ANET’s fault that the hug-bunnies are crying because they can’t get like…1 achievement point. There are 6 other jps that can be completed for the meta achievement. NO ONE HAS TO ENTER OS BY ANY MEANS.

It’s called an achievement because you earn it, not because you get it for existing. The entitlement is enraging. Especially since these scrubs don’t realize that while they can get the cool stuff without doing what they do not like, the pvpers cannot.

I personally do not camp the puzzle (I’ve only been in there once, although I did kill a bunch of poor saps in the puzzle after I finished. I didn’t get my hand held either, the other two servers were openly fighting mine when I did it. I killed my way to the end and killed my way back) but watching these people drown us all in tears is sure making me want to.

It’s too bad that there’s only four things that OS and WvW have in common.

1. You can be killed by another player
2. Choke points are kill zones
3. People being camped don’t like being camped
and what most PvEers don’t realize…
4. If you can’t beat the enemy with what you have, bring more

I wish the WvW JPs would just go away. There is so much more fun in the regular maps.

Now if you want to discuss a way to bring more PvE players into WvW I don’t think putting achievements in OS is the best way, but I don’t know a way to keep a PvE player in WvW long enough to start liking it other than having some kind of keep/tower/camp award. I think map exploration is easier now that everyone changes colors each week.

Monsoon.2589:

How about in order to take SM you need to go to LA and watch a couple of cut scenes, then do and transport quest from LA to X, then go and talk to some vendors, then go back to EB then back to LA to watch another Cut scene because you were not fact enough in watching a cut scene…then rinse and repeat

What does this have to do with PVP/wvw? Nothing

This is the exact same opposite of requiring PVE people to go into a pvp/wvw area to do achievements. Now just think about what wvw people would say if they had to go outside of wvw and watch cut scenes and do quests to achieve a wvw objective…people would be up in arms and /rabble rabble and people would just tell them “Hey its just PVE, if you don t like PVE then don t PVE, nobody forces you to do your wvw achievements”

See the issue?

Do YOU see the issue with labeling a wvw jp achievement as a pve achievement?

OS belongs to the wvwers, achievements in OS belong to PVPers. No one is forcing you to come. You can complete the 16 meta achievements without ever entering a pvp zone.

Thanks to these threads I will be making sure to camp some scrubs in OS at least once a week. Just so that I can bathe in the tears of the entitlement complex whiners. I hope every one of them is on here crying while I run that spike through their chest.

If you go into obsidian and think you aren’t gonna get attacked…your gonna have a bad time

Comeing from a server that deals with a massive amount of campers in the Obsidian JP even when there isn’t a limited time achivement for it since the other 2 servers in our group view it just like holding a tower..and seem to like to work together as well….. If this is indeed a pvp zone such as Anet members have stated i have to wonder 3 things:

1. Where’s our outnumbered buff when we’re in there since im usualy faceing 5-15 people sitting at the start at all times of the day by myself

2. Where’s the que and cap for the area ? ive watched 30-40 people from the same server camp the place for hours, exsp when a new achiv comes and then have another 50 or so pour in once another server has enofe to take the current group. Honestly you think haveing that many people in a confined area of a JP is fine?

3. Why is there no access from SM for it? Its a main keep isn’t it? just like the others that can be taken over that have entrences to the JP, why not have it so if you have SM you spawn at the end of obsidian, adding another insentive to keep SM and a possible way around the “greifing” that some are complaining about.

Your already giveing us hundreds of badges through the chests (honestly i think that should have started much higher up in achivement points but whatev), and deminished the pvers need to do the JP instead of doing wvw for badges, so why still keep Obsidian JP the same way it is now? You make a jumping puzzle, say it is a pvp zone, yet put the achivements for it in other areas then WvW and make limited time achivements for it which appeal most to the achivement crazed pvers. Last time i checked you werent forceing a pvper to do instances or anything pve wise to get something done that was in the wvw/spvp tabs.

honestly put in a point from SM and take out the Badges from the chest if you go that way, or make it so that one server cant drasticly outnumber the others in there and problem solved everyone can stop kittening.

So funny thing happened in the Obsidian Sanctum to me just now.

I go in, bypass and or kill the campers, get my loot and all. I go back to help server mates get past the Dragonbrand campers, offer help, and am met with indifference and even a bit of hostility. I’m basically playing diversion and pulling the entrance campers away (10v1 at least), while my 8 or so allies just sit up at the WP and watch, and complain about the campers. They don’t listen to the directions I gave them, they aren’t even all that outnumbered, don’t take advantage of the opening I created for them… and what’s worse they start ridiculing me for dying in my diversion for them (wtf?).

If the Ehmry Bay and Dragonbrand achievement hunters are as bad sports as these Tarnish Coast achievement hunters, maybe I should set up my game at hunting them.

This is a jumping puzzle, that is no longer a true part of wvw, as a result this should be put in the PVE section of the forums and not the wvw section. It was great to finally see this JP moved from wvw so that more people could actually get into the EB and play wvw rather than have 30 people running around in a JP…. " any mesmer availiable??" when you are defending a keep… Please stop polluting the wvw forums with pve matters Thanks

GuardianOMS.8067:

Visiroth.5914:

Vol.5241:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Well for one, they’re not griefers.

Spawn camping is griefing. The spawn area doesn’t even give you invulnerability. There was even a thread with a pic showing another server’s players on their spawn platform!

Standing on the platform does gives you the invulnerability buff. You’ll lose the buff once you stand on the very, very edge of the platform, or jump down.

Now you have nothing to complain about. Good luck.

You can be mesmer pulled with invulnerability? Because 2-3 weeks ago I was standing at the back of the platform near the portal and they pulled me.

Just want to comment on this. I’ll start by saying I don’t really care about achievements. I didn’t do anything during the Aetherblade event (too busy in rl), I did the bare minimum in Southsun, and I have plenty of incomplete achievements, in just about every category.

Yet ANet’s ongoing “support” of this map and the behavior in it is still extremely offensive to me. This isn’t a PvP map in any legitimate sense – there’s no balance, no rules. No point beyond griefing or being griefed. Without any significant WvW purpose, it’s just a JP explorable where players are allowed to troll each other. And this is OK, because you can be cheeky and call your server away from real objectives to help you? For kittens sake…

Anyway, in light of Devon’s post, I’ve just deleted all my siege and badges. I’m swearing off WvW. It’s a shame because I quite enjoyed some occasional WvW action, but you’ve gone and soured it by siding with the trolls.

Raire.7983:

Yet ANet’s ongoing “support” of this map and the behavior in it is still extremely offensive to me. This isn’t a PvP map in any legitimate sense – there’s no balance, no rules. No point beyond griefing or being griefed. Without any significant WvW purpose, it’s just a JP explorable where players are allowed to troll each other. And this is OK, because you can be cheeky and call your server away from real objectives to help you? For kittens sake…

Anyway, in light of Devon’s post, I’ve just deleted all my siege and badges. I’m swearing off WvW. It’s a shame because I quite enjoyed some occasional WvW action, but you’ve gone and soured it by siding with the trolls.

There are more than enough JPs for all your PvE needs. There is only one sizable JP for PvPers. If you’re going to get all “offended” by PvP, then it probably isn’t the place for you, and if you really are despirate for freeing up that inventor I suppose you might as well delete that WvW related stuff.

I don’t think that a lot of the WvW community understands what PvE players go through or why they look at this as an obligatory objective. This achievement is as fundamental to the PvE completionist players (a group which probably outnumbers the WvW community) as the acquisition of siege blueprints and supply is to WvW. Imagine having to run for 3 hours across an empty PvE map to get to a dungeon where 90% of the time the last boss has a permanent invulnerable buff. Only if you manage to kill that boss does the siege vendor and supply point spawn. That is what PvE completionists face.

Also, the only reason this is called a WvW map is because it is accessed from within EB and uses server alliances. It has no strategic value, follows none of the design principles of other WvW combat, and the events in the JP have no bearing on the WvW score or strategy. This is not a WvW zone, this is a server-aligned team PvP zone, which is NOT part of the PvE experience by any rational measure.

With the addition of achievement point rewards, this latest one is 20 points—4% of a chest. That is a significant amount to me as a completionist. In terms of actions→physical rewards, this is only available for a limited time and is more rewarding than escorting 10,000 dolyaks, but less rewarding than escorting 100,000 dolyaks. It falls around 34,000 dolyaks worth of reward, but the key aspect is the time-locked nature—this has to be done in a certain window or I will fall behind. This is the mindset that WvWers don’t grasp; your content is always there, but for players like me, these limited opportunities must be completed or I have failed and may as well just stop playing altogether, because I can never succeed once I have failed.

I’m not even going to bother going for this achievement simply because I’m not good at PvP, I die instantly vs. another player unless I’m in a zerg or something, and like the original poster says, it’s unfair to camp and grief other players.

And yes, I play WvW A LOT, I now have over 1.3k badges of honor (and probably a good 2k+ more I’ve already used up on buying items with them) so don’t give me any of that ‘you obviously don’t play WvW then’, because I do, everyday, I’m just completely useless unless I’m with other players that can tank the damage for me whilst I blast the enemies with very high crit dmg fire spells.

I don’t care what anyone else says, it’s just wrong (‘but it’s in WvW, you should expect…’ no, just, no), especially for an achievement which is near to impossible to achieve unless you’re great at PvP and good against multiple opponents ready and willing to woop your behind (or just lucky enough to not find any enemies – but this is a dog eat dog world, so hardly any chance of that happening >_<). It’s hard enough getting there, let alone dealing with griefers. Just one less achievement many of us will never be able to get.

Fildydarie.1496:

[PvE completionists]

You’re post absolutely reeks of entitlement. You want PvPers to bow down to you, and let you simply waltz into a PvP zone unobstructed to pick up your reward, which you yourself have valued it at an obscene amount of dolyaks.

Achievements are supposed to be something that you “achieve”, this massive sense of entitlement is mind boggling. You simply want to cheapen the achievements for everyone else, by getting free passes and what amounts to participation awards.

Seriously, the entitlement issues presented in this thread are revolting. I truly hope you people don’t bring this sense of entitlement into your real life.

Fildydarie.1496:

I don’t think that a lot of the WvW community understands what PvE players go through or why they look at this as an obligatory objective. This achievement is as fundamental to the PvE completionist players (a group which probably outnumbers the WvW community) as the acquisition of siege blueprints and supply is to WvW. Imagine having to run for 3 hours across an empty PvE map to get to a dungeon where 90% of the time the last boss has a permanent invulnerable buff. Only if you manage to kill that boss does the siege vendor and supply point spawn. That is what PvE completionists face.

Also, the only reason this is called a WvW map is because it is accessed from within EB and uses server alliances. It has no strategic value, follows none of the design principles of other WvW combat, and the events in the JP have no bearing on the WvW score or strategy. This is not a WvW zone, this is a server-aligned team PvP zone, which is NOT part of the PvE experience by any rational measure.

With the addition of achievement point rewards, this latest one is 20 points—4% of a chest. That is a significant amount to me as a completionist. In terms of actions->physical rewards, this is only available for a limited time and is more rewarding than escorting 10,000 dolyaks, but less rewarding than escorting 100,000 dolyaks. It falls around 34,000 dolyaks worth of reward, but the key aspect is the time-locked nature—this has to be done in a certain window or I will fall behind. This is the mindset that WvWers don’t grasp; your content is always there, but for players like me, these limited opportunities must be completed or I have failed and may as well just stop playing altogether, because I can never succeed once I have failed.

DevonCarver.5370:

If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple.

Posted by Devon…Sadly and how mean it sounds…no one cares. If you want the achievement keep trying and don’t quit. The JP is not that hard, find a group that will help you…(You guy have those in PvE right?) Don’t expect to get it on the first try…

Zikory.6871:

Posted by Devon…Sadly and how mean it sounds…no one cares. If you want the achievement keep trying and don’t quit. The JP is not that hard, find a group that will help you…(You guy have those in PvE right?) Don’t expect to get it on the first try…

Devon’s comment has alienated many from the PvE community, some to the point of now hating WvW when they were neutral before. I do hope that he realizes that.

But Zikory is right. The WvWers don’t care (or are actively against the PvEers). The JP itself isn’t that hard. And don’t expect to get it on the first try. But please do keep trying. Don’t let a bunch of bad sports ruin your fun. And if there is a camping group try to rally your server. It can be done and I’ve seen it done.

Monsoon.2589:

It is a stupid mechanic to force people to go into a map where they are going to get camped. The JP has NOTHING at all to do with pvp and if you think it does you are clearly delusioned. The EB JP is pvp ONLY if you see that your server has more people than the other servers.

Then you camp the other servers to annoy them and stop them from completing their achieves. THAT is what the pvp is about in there. It is not and never is anything else but 5 to 10 versus 1 or 2.

People simply camp as a group and as soon as they do not have the numbers they run away. People also purposefully pull, kill or disturb players at the part after the dark room. Campers stay on top and range the players trying to climb up. The choke there is the best griefing spot as it requires to redo the dark room which blows donkeys.

There is nothing fun in this JP UNLESS…you are doing it without being bothered then it is fun OR you are the griefing team and you enjoy making people fail.

NOTHING about the EB JP has anything to do with pvp it only has to do with larger groups blocking others from completing achieves. Being hit from a distance without being able to do anything and getting killed from above in the animals cages part is NOT pvp…its just a kittenblock and a means for sadistic players to have their fun

You seem a little mad.

Monsoon.2589:

It is a stupid mechanic to force people to go into a map where they are going to get camped. The JP has NOTHING at all to do with pvp and if you think it does you are clearly delusioned. The EB JP is pvp ONLY if you see that your server has more people than the other servers.

Then you camp the other servers to annoy them and stop them from completing their achieves. THAT is what the pvp is about in there. It is not and never is anything else but 5 to 10 versus 1 or 2.

People simply camp as a group and as soon as they do not have the numbers they run away. People also purposefully pull, kill or disturb players at the part after the dark room. Campers stay on top and range the players trying to climb up. The choke there is the best griefing spot as it requires to redo the dark room which blows donkeys.

There is nothing fun in this JP UNLESS…you are doing it without being bothered then it is fun OR you are the griefing team and you enjoy making people fail.

NOTHING about the EB JP has anything to do with pvp it only has to do with larger groups blocking others from completing achieves. Being hit from a distance without being able to do anything and getting killed from above in the animals cages part is NOT pvp…its just a kittenblock and a means for sadistic players to have their fun

You mean this isn’t PvP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lwSDy3iUuao

DevonCarver.5370:

…hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

Devon, I realize that addressing the utility of the World vs. Kite achievement is not quite the subject of the thread, but since you mentioned it, let’s look at this statement. You have expressed some hope that this achievement will make players play WvW more than they otherwise do. This may be existing WvW players who get caught up in the action and play longer than they otherwise would, or this may be non-WvW players who become interested after trying the jump puzzle.

When releasing any product, the chief concerns are usually 1) Who is the intended audience? and 2) What do you want out of this audience?

Let’s ignore the broader items of player retention and maintaining cash flow and focus purely on WvW. In that case:

Who is the intended audience of this achievement?

You have stated it is not required for the meta achievement. It is therefore not targeted at casual PvE players who only want the meta reward. While there are now rewards associated with total achievement point totals, World vs Kite and the Kite meta are a small contributor to the point total and can be fairly considered negligible for progression purposes. PvE and WvW are both completely separate from structured PvP, so one reasonably assumes exclusive players of that mode are not the intended audience either.

I would conclude, then, that the achievement is aimed at WvW players of all types and PvE completionists.

So what behavior do you want from PvE completionists and people who play WvW?

Thus far, I can see two goals: get people into Obsidian Sanctum and get people into WvW.

But what is the purpose? I assume—and I may be wrong—the long-term purpose is to increase interest in WvW. Yet, we are faced with some contradictions.

First of all, Obsidian Sanctum isn’t viewed as a significant WvW objective. As a result, it is of little interest to dedicated WvW players. Here are the facts to back up my assertion:

1) WvW players demanded its removal from Eternal Backgrounds. Its existence was viewed as detrimental to standard WvW play as the presence of players in the jump puzzle detracted from the server’s efforts in accumulating points and holding ground.

2) Its strategic value as a source of income and siege for WvW players has been consistently reduced. The chest is now accountbound. Whereas a server that owned the jump puzzle could farm the puzzle 5 times a day (more for players with more character slots), this has now been reduced to once. Mesmers portaling in the jump puzzle contribute much less to the server as a result, and their utility is further reduced by their lack of visibility in EB map chat. Furthermore, making siege tradable has put a direct price on siege which (except for catapults) is a quarter to a tenth what you can get from siege vendors. The average price of the contents of the OS chest is around 60 silver at current market prices. Nothing to scoff at but also not that impressive, especially compared to what the blueprints and badges of honor were worth prior to the recent string of patches.

3) Obsidian Sanctum plays nothing like WvW. It is not balanced between the three sides (Borderlands are basically balanced in that each side has an advantage in one of them), it is not open for roaming, it does not allow siege, it has one clear objective, and it has highly defensible chokes which requires very few people to hold. If anything, Obsidian Sanctum more closely resembles PvP death matches with the exception that it is highly imbalanced by design.

With those facts in mind, it is arguable that the truly dedicated WvW players may not find this achievement all that interesting. In fact, any attempt to get it actually detracts from WvW time—they must leave whatever map they are on, spend time in the puzzle, queue to return to WvW, and if they bothered to do all that, chances are they want the meta-achievement too and must then play PvE to attain that. For these players, the achievement does the reverse: it actually encourages dedicated WvW players who want to pursue the achievement not to WvW.
(cont. in next post)

(cont. from previous post)
Next, let’s look at PvE completionists. If they are not WvW enthusiasts to date, they either understand WvW and do not want to participate or they have not played and have some preconceived notions that prevent them from joining. The former is never going to play WvW as they have already given it a try. As for the latter, I would say that preconceived notions that would keep people out of PvP include: 1) distaste for dealing directly with other players whether it’s coordinating with them or fighting them, 2) concerns about their personal skills and coming up short, and 3) dislike for dealing with imbalanced scenarios.

Obsidian Sanctum plays upon all the PvE player’s worst fears about WvW while not being true to WvW. WvW itself actually plays very similar to PvE except that the NPCs are now other players. You can run around without saying much, participate in dynamic events, rely on the zerg, and retreat when faced with overwhelming force. It’s actually quite fun and nothing like what many people may first think when told about open world PvP. Obsidian Sanctum on the other hand confirms everything people fear. If you wander in alone, you face duels and lopsided fights with a need for builds and skills with which you may not be familiar. You must actively coordinate with your server and sometimes an opposing server. Detailed knowledge is required of the map when faced with adversity. Sending a player who has not tried WvW into Obsidian Sanctum is like matching a new chess player with a grandmaster or like pitting Ferguson’s Crossing against Sanctum of Rall. They are faced with an overwhelming number of factors, all stacked against them, and told to react by a faceless and unsympathetic achievement panel which is probably taunting them with an almost completed kite meta. For every PvE player who discovers his/her inner fighter, there will be many more who scream about griefing or give up.

So who are we left with? We are left with players who enjoy the PvP aspects of the jumping puzzle and players who PvE and WvW but are not super dedicated to either. The former are going to have a blast because suddenly one of their favored haunts is teeming with activity. The latter are likely to have fun, but their spike in interest is going to be short-lived because the achievement is one and done. They already sample PvE and WvW. They will play where they are interested, but they are not going to suddenly gain more interest in WvW as a result of a temporary achievement. Is this a large enough audience of happy players that it is worth the gnashing of teeth by the rest, especially when Guild Wars 2 sets out to try to give as enjoyable an experience as possible to as many people as possible?

That then leaves us with the question: Did the achievement accomplish its desired goals?

Let’s be honest, Devon, only you know that, because only you have access to player numbers, and only you know what your company actually wanted to accomplish. However, it seems that of the people impacted by the achievement (that is, those who want it), dedicated PvE and dedicated WvW players are both going to end up playing less WvW as a result. Furthermore, of the players who are not active WvW players, you have ended up frustrating and driving away many who sample it through this achievement. There’s a reason Obsidian Sanctum is often the least populated component of WvW, and throwing new players into it is not exactly addressing the problem or putting your best foot forward.
(cont. in next post)

(cont. from previous post)
In the long run, interest in WvW is going to be driven by more major or lasting changes to your incentive systems. WXP was a good step forward. Adding objectives and WvW-specific achievements would be fantastic. Goodness, if you wanted to attract PvE players, you could even have a living story take place in the Mists—just make it so that everyone has an equal chance to participate. For example, maybe one day for a living story zone, you could have a world monster that requires all three servers to work together to take it down lest it wreak havoc across all the objectives. Servers could choose not to participate, but they would risk the world boss causing them to lose ground. If all WvW players hated it, then everyone would cede the map and it would have no overall impact on the score, and as part of the living story, it could go away. Then, tie that into Living World achievements—this opens up both a cooperative aspect and a balancing component that would allow PvE players a fighting chance in a new environment while adding something of concrete interest for WvW players. Maybe I just proposed a totally stupid idea, but it seems something targeted at specific demographics is going to do better than just putting in an achievement that lures people into Obsidian Sanctum and hoping for the best.

TL;DR: When I look at World vs. Kite, I don’t see an achievement with a lot of thought put into it. I see an achievement that looks like a temporary and short-sighted way of driving up player population in an underpopulated zone, and I know your team is capable of delivering a better player experience than that.

Fildydarie.1496:

I don’t think that a lot of the WvW community understands what PvE players go through or why they look at this as an obligatory objective. This achievement is as fundamental to the PvE completionist players (a group which probably outnumbers the WvW community) as the acquisition of siege blueprints and supply is to WvW. Imagine having to run for 3 hours across an empty PvE map to get to a dungeon where 90% of the time the last boss has a permanent invulnerable buff. Only if you manage to kill that boss does the siege vendor and supply point spawn. That is what PvE completionists face.

Also, the only reason this is called a WvW map is because it is accessed from within EB and uses server alliances. It has no strategic value, follows none of the design principles of other WvW combat, and the events in the JP have no bearing on the WvW score or strategy. This is not a WvW zone, this is a server-aligned team PvP zone, which is NOT part of the PvE experience by any rational measure.

With the addition of achievement point rewards, this latest one is 20 points—4% of a chest. That is a significant amount to me as a completionist. In terms of actions->physical rewards, this is only available for a limited time and is more rewarding than escorting 10,000 dolyaks, but less rewarding than escorting 100,000 dolyaks. It falls around 34,000 dolyaks worth of reward, but the key aspect is the time-locked nature—this has to be done in a certain window or I will fall behind. This is the mindset that WvWers don’t grasp; your content is always there, but for players like me, these limited opportunities must be completed or I have failed and may as well just stop playing altogether, because I can never succeed once I have failed.

Sucks to be you. Go learn to pvp and you won’t have this problem anymore. This is not a pve achievement.

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

At least we’ve been delivered an official post on the topic, even if Devon Carter is completely wrong. This is griefing, and it only exists because the achievement list requires it. WvW players have the chance to grief these puzzle runners, so that’s what they do. This is exactly the wrong way to bring people to WvW.

I would like suggest a WvW Mentor Event similar to the daily Event Mentor. WvW nuubcakes need to learn first of all, “Don’t Run Alone”. Good guild groups can help them to learn these things.

Fort Aspenwood (us) just smashed Maguuma griefers out of Obsidian Sanctum. Now, I hate griefing, but I love payback.

The notion of “an introduction to PvP” makes me laugh really. Devon is right, nobody should go into a PvP map without expecting to be killed by the other players.

This achievement goal isn’t to make people love PvP because it’s impossible. Most PvE players do not like getting killed at all and the very nature of PvP requires half the participants to lose in each fight. The goal of the achievement is to nudge PvE players to try PvP and see if maybe they like it after all. If they can get the achievement done, if they die, and die and kill, if they like the rush of adrenaline when you manage to get that kite or plain kill the guys bothering you, then those players will maybe get their hand in WvW next because the fear of PvP they had has been replaced.

And if the player REALLY doesn’t like that after all, well you cannot have everyone liking everything anyway. For those people, I’m sorry but this is a PvP achievement. If you don’t like PvP, don’t hurt yourself trying to make it. I know for sure I don’t even try doing the few achievements in places I don’t enjoy.

FleaKill.4108:

Fort Aspenwood (us) just smashed Maguuma griefers out of Obsidian Sanctum. Now, I hate griefing, but I love payback.

Thanks for that. xD

stof.9341:

And if the player REALLY doesn’t like that after all, well you cannot have everyone liking everything anyway. For those people, I’m sorry but this is a PvP achievement. If you don’t like PvP, don’t hurt yourself trying to make it. I know for sure I don’t even try doing the few achievements in places I don’t enjoy.

Or just wait until the middle of the night when the Arena campers need to sleep. :P

“Its a WvW area” is a dumb excuse. It shouldnt be a WvW area is my response. Its such a big annoying JP, that the added element of enemy players is a real jerk move. Thankfully more people seem to help/ignore eachother than grief eachother, but just one jerk can ruin someone’s day. Worse yet they keep using Obsidian Sanctum to house Living Story content. I had hoped to not have any reason to finish it more than once after the first time.

Saelune.5316:

“Its a WvW area” is a dumb excuse. It shouldnt be a WvW area is my response. Its such a big annoying JP, that the added element of enemy players is a real jerk move. Thankfully more people seem to help/ignore eachother than grief eachother, but just one jerk can ruin someone’s day. Worse yet they keep using Obsidian Sanctum to house Living Story content. I had hoped to not have any reason to finish it more than once after the first time.

Dude there’s a million JP’s in this game, only a handful are in WvW. And only one is hard enough that everyone is QQ’ing about it.

You are being overly dramatic about a pvp area….

its a pvp jp map ….. as pvp expect everything.

I can kind of agree that the kite achievement in the WvW JP is not a PVE achievement but a WvW one. Which is fine right? WvW players need more achievements, since so many are PVE anyway.

But I think it should just not be part of the otherwise PVE related kite meta achievement.

In stead to me it would have made more sense to add another meta achievement, something like “Kites of War” and add the WvW JP kite to that one, along with 4 other new kites spread out over the 4 WvW maps. And leave the PVE meta with one less kite.

That way it would have been very clear that there are WvW achievements and separate PVE achievements. Removes ambiguity and the people could clearly choose to do either the WvW or the PVE meta, or both if they like both.

I’d like to see stonemyst castle placed in the center of a JP just to see if WWW players still would think its a “pvp” area and you should expect pvp

etrigan.4213:

Saelune.5316:

“Its a WvW area” is a dumb excuse. It shouldnt be a WvW area is my response. Its such a big annoying JP, that the added element of enemy players is a real jerk move. Thankfully more people seem to help/ignore eachother than grief eachother, but just one jerk can ruin someone’s day. Worse yet they keep using Obsidian Sanctum to house Living Story content. I had hoped to not have any reason to finish it more than once after the first time.

Dude there’s a million JP’s in this game, only a handful are in WvW. And only one is hard enough that everyone is QQ’ing about it.

You are being overly dramatic about a pvp area….

Again, I wouldnt care so much if they didnt suddenly put focus on it with Aetherblades and now this new LS update. I managed to do it once when no one was around. After that I literally said to myself “Glad I dont ever have to do that again”.

Renxian.6982:

How it is meant to be played IS clearly communicated. It is clearly a jumping puzzle designed with a pvp aspect. Just because the sheep keep coming to the slaughter does not mean that there is confusion as to whether this is a slaughterhouse or a love-in.

It’s not ANET’s fault that the hug-bunnies are crying because they can’t get like…1 achievement point. There are 6 other jps that can be completed for the meta achievement. NO ONE HAS TO ENTER OS BY ANY MEANS.

It’s called an achievement because you earn it, not because you get it for existing. The entitlement is enraging. Especially since these scrubs don’t realize that while they can get the cool stuff without doing what they do not like, the pvpers cannot.

I personally do not camp the puzzle (I’ve only been in there once, although I did kill a bunch of poor saps in the puzzle after I finished. I didn’t get my hand held either, the other two servers were openly fighting mine when I did it. I killed my way to the end and killed my way back) but watching these people drown us all in tears is sure making me want to.

Sounds like you didn’t exactly get my point? Maybe I didn’t make it clear, I don’t know.

Blame PvE-ers all you want as if they are some kind of enemy faction of WvW players, and see if that helps anyone. The fact that this argument over OS is constantly happening and never reaching a mutual point of agreement, is the problem. Not figuring out whether PvE players or WvW players are the bad guys here. And Anet is responsible for improving this specific part of the game experience. It’s their job to make things enjoyable after all.

See if PvE players who never play PvP or WvW cries over not being able to get achievements and titles categorized in WvW or PvP section. I’ve personally never seen one. Yet we get so many players complaining about map completion or a couple LS achievements requiring WvW. Get my point? See the difference here? Whether or not they are entitled or not is not the point here. Neither whether or not they are wrong or not. The fact that this happened, has been happening and still is, is the important bit.

I’ve actually always wondered why people don’t fight more in the JP. I mean all these people wanting small group and no siege fights and GvG’s – why don’t you go in the JP and do them? I would think it would make for some interesting fighting and tactics and strategy.

Yid.3024

And Anet is responsible for improving this specific part of the game experience. It’s their job to make things enjoyable after all.

No it’s not, not in the way you mean anyway.