Guild Wars 2

While this is all deviating from the actual topic at hand a bit, its a much more interesting conversation.. soo… meh!

LameFox.6349:

I don’t necessarily disagree with this actually. Keeping in stealth by doing things like ‘stab a rabbit’ or ‘fire a pistol and leap back and forth’ are quite amusing to me, but don’t really seem logical or fitting as ways to sneak. I’m willing to overlook it under the circumstances though because I think it would be very hard to implement that way in a game like GW2. [snip!]

Dont get me wrong, I think actually over hauling the entire system would be more trouble than its worth when there are other things in game I would like to see fixed much more. That said, there is obviously a fine balance with it. I think that making it about 50% as visible as you are to your team mates might be just about right, but it would obviously require testing.

However, if this type of thing WAS implemented, I would like to see damage reverted back to higher numbers and I think that the ability to go 100% invisible should remain for PvE.

As for the stealth in PS2: I havent played it much (maybe 3 hours or so), so I cant comment in depth.

Like with all things, there should be a balance. Something like this (just the first minute or so of the video):

I can see how it’s easier to learn when TTK is high because even if you fail miserably you’ve more time to take in how you failed, instead of bam, dead).

Both extreme ends of the spectrum tend to come back right to the same place, but in different ways. I dont disagree with anything you said here.

Sure, they’re an evasive class and they do stand a good chance of escaping if they’re a decent player.

Yeah, I am not so sure I would actually change their ability to do this. Just that it is one of the things that makes it less enjoyable for me, personally, to fight against. The overall theme of the class supports this type of play, so I dont think I would even support a move to change anything about it. I simply dont enjoy “winning” in this fashion though. I like a good ol fight to the death, so that is what I actively seek out.

Honestly, besides the reasons I put up-post, I think one significant thing is because so many other people don’t.

Just as a friendly little jab (seriously, I am enjoying this discourse!), you sound imminently anti-conformist. Which, in its way, just has you conforming all the same, except inversely.

:D

i play a necro and just drop my Marks all around me in a circle then swith to talisman and drop the aoes outside of that and force them into said marks. Or just pop death shroud and use ability 4 that sucks life out of everyone around me.

Close your eyes, use aoe skill and hope that you get lucky. Only problem is that most annoying thiefs have huge amount toughness so yo need to get 10 lucky shots in row.

Step one is stop being scared of stealth. Step two is stop complaining and focusing on stealth. Step three stop being caught solo in awful spots by thieves. Oh then l2p

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

As an Engineer, you have quite a few tools that can be handy vs thieves. Unfortunately based on what you’ve listed in what you’re using for skills, you’re not using any of them. I’d say you’re going to struggle a bit with thieves. Or at least I should say I would struggle with them with your build. I’ve run P/P build a long time with my engie. Thieves can be beat consistently with it if you change your build a little bit.

I’d replace Elixir U with Toolkit. Toolkit is a must for me in any build I use for my Engineer in WvW. When I first started playing the Engineer I thought it was a pointless kit. Now I can’t go without it. The block from Toolkit is amazing and using it at the right time vs a thief is a game changer. Pretty much every ability in the Toolkit is useful in WvW and when fighting a theif. I’d also look at mixing some toughness gear in too helps reduce the burst damage of a thief.

But as far as how you beat a thief with your build? Timing. It really is about timing. Think in 4 second intervals. Now different thief builds will require things to time, but with your build you need to stack on as many conditions you can in those 4 seconds they are out.

Static Shot, Blowtorch, and Poison Volley. Try to make poison volley your last attack before they go into stealth because it will still track them and hit them even if they are stealthed as long as you get the attack off before they stealth.

If you can get poison, confusion, burn and bleed(all possible from pistols) on him before he stealths, he’s going to struggle because he won’t be able to clear all of those conditions. When he stealths, you can heal up, or drop potions on you for the might stacks. But again..be aware of the timing. After they stealth, they will attack in 3 to 4 seconds unless they used Refuge. Drop a glue shot right before they’re about to pop out and dodge. Stack on the conditions.

The biggest challenge you’re going to have with your build is dealing with their Shadow Refuge. That ability can allow them to reset the fight if you dont counter it well. And unfortunately your build doesn’t have great tools for it.

Your only option with your current build is blowtorch. And if that’s on cooldown then you’re pretty much stuck twiddling your thumbs knowing they are going to reset.

This is probably your best advice I heard so far. As a Condi build, you really don’t need Power as well. I would suggest, Rabid and Apothecary gear with the Toolkit. You will be Boss.

Tuluum.9638:

Dont get me wrong, I think actually over hauling the entire system would be more trouble than its worth when there are other things in game I would like to see fixed much more. That said, there is obviously a fine balance with it. I think that making it about 50% as visible as you are to your team mates might be just about right, but it would obviously require testing.

I think if I had to pick a stealth nerf I’d probably go with nullifying speed buffs if anything. Stealth and high mobility seem suited to being separate options – though from what I recall it might require a few other alterations in order to replace redundant things (whatever the in-stealth movement trait is called, I forget now).

Making them visible but very slightly seems almost pre-destined to favour certain settings, and also environments (which isn’t a good thing if they weren’t placed that way with that in mind). Also, since to allow targeting the thief would effectively break stealth altogether (tab tab tab… oh hey, a thief), the current counters like AoE and cleave would receive a boost disproportionate to things that require a targeted enemy. That is to say, the latter wouldn’t receive a boost at all. For whatever that’s worth…

Also, I’d completely forgotten that video. It seems so old now.

Tuluum.9638:

Yeah, I am not so sure I would actually change their ability to do this. Just that it is one of the things that makes it less enjoyable for me, personally, to fight against. The overall theme of the class supports this type of play, so I dont think I would even support a move to change anything about it. I simply dont enjoy “winning” in this fashion though. I like a good ol fight to the death, so that is what I actively seek out.

Oh I do intend to make them all fights to the death… the ones that aren’t merely represent a successful but incomplete test phase.

Tuluum.9638:

Just as a friendly little jab (seriously, I am enjoying this discourse!), you sound imminently anti-conformist. Which, in its way, just has you conforming all the same, except inversely.

:D

I wouldn’t really say it’s nonconformist, the effect is a bit like… the longer it’s built up as though nothing could touch it, the funnier it is to trounce one. And in the times they do win, they don’t even get to brag about it, which only makes it more amusing because it’s so cruel.

Lots of good conversation on the matter of how to fight a thief – not knocking it, I actually have an 80 thief myself just so I could learn what makes ‘em tick, and I still learn new things every time I dive into the forums. One thing I haven’t seen anyone bring up, though, is the matter of how to defend unwalled objectives from thieves (i.e. flags, yaks, & camps). It might seem a minor quibble, but hear me out.

Suppose I’m trying to babysit a yak to a tower or a keep that desperately needs to resupply after barely fending off an assault. Doors/walls just put back up, supply almost empty after building defensive siege, everyone scattered to find out where that zerg-ball’s rollin’ up to next. Nobody wants to babysit yaks. Nobody but me.

Along comes a thief, peppering the yak with shots. Yak don’t fight back, but that’s OK – I do, and that’s exactly what I’m here for. Except the thief doesn’t engage me – so my guardian’s retaliation, my mesmer’s chaos armor, my engineer’s healing, all my defensive abilities are rendered useless (except AoE projectile reflection [feedback, shield of absorption, smoke screen, etc.], but those abilities have 30-40 second cooldowns). Well, my engineer’s healing is actually useful, it’s AoE so I can heal the yak. But even still, it won’t keep up with the DPS of a thief, and I know for sure that the thief is going to evade out of my AoEs and circle around to attack from whatever direction I happen not to be facing. I put ’em up just the same and do my best, but still, the yak is inexorably killed along the road.

And yeah, while some kind of lockdown would certainly do the trick, it requires actually getting hold of the sucker, and the point of thieves is to be slippery: while I’m out of stealth, I still have disabling shot, infiltrator’s arrow, infiltrator’s strike, shadow strike, withdraw, roll for initiative, shadow step/return, smoke screen, and dodge rolling to get in & out of combat without taking damage. Obviously I can’t use them all at once, but there are so many options to evade attacks that don’t even use stealth.

If I’m on my guardian, I can chain blinds & blocks for a while – but if I don’t kill anyone in all that time, I’m getting the living kittens kicked outta me as soon as my guard’s down. My mesmer & engineer have decent buffer tanks, between their various boons & heals, but they can only last for so long until I’m stuck between rotations. Thieves and thieves alone can pop in & out of combat indefinitely, picking an objective off right from under my feet, while I have no way to force an engagement without relying on luck (such as nailing them with a lucky AoE, or waiting for them to screw up – there’s nothing I can do to force the issue).

And if my mesmer goes down, I just have to wait for the stealth stomp, because my 1, 2, & 3 abilities all require targets. But really, that’s just the icing on the cake.

Point being, I can’t stop a thief from shooting a yak out from under me, even if I’m a thief. Same goes for a flag, and a supply camp is just a joke. Sure, I can hang out in the middle of the NPCs to not die; but as soon as I walk away, that camp’s getting solo’ed. I’d like to be able to do something proactive, instead of simply hoping the thief 1) gets bored, and 2) doesn’t come back after I reckon the coast is clear. My problem is not that thieves can only be effectively engaged on their terms – that’s how they’re designed, and that’s fine. My problem is that thieves can engage what I’m trying to protect without engaging me. And yeah, as in the original post, traps are useless here because I can’t possibly trap a whole camp or a whole yak route or even a whole flag’s perimeter – again, I have to rely on luck if I want that trap to pay off (and the cost just isn’t worth the risk).

So, because of all of that, stealth needs a counter.

LameFox.6349:

I think if I had to pick a stealth nerf I’d probably go with nullifying speed buffs if anything. Stealth and high mobility seem suited to being separate options – though from what I recall it might require a few other alterations in order to replace redundant things (whatever the in-stealth movement trait is called, I forget now).

Making them visible but very slightly seems almost pre-destined to favour certain settings, and also environments (which isn’t a good thing if they weren’t placed that way with that in mind). Also, since to allow targeting the thief would effectively break stealth altogether (tab tab tab… oh hey, a thief), the current counters like AoE and cleave would receive a boost disproportionate to things that require a targeted enemy. That is to say, the latter wouldn’t receive a boost at all. For whatever that’s worth…

Also, I’d completely forgotten that video. It seems so old now.

I definitely dont think they should be targetable in the common way, still just how it is now but with a slightly better idea of where the thief is if they arent being sneaky.

It would definitely favor some settings a bit, but thats an issue thats present in a lot of situations. One of the worst offenders is using windowed mode to gain access to a higher FOV with ACs. Honestly, I think they should just have a fixed FOV with ACs, but thats a whole ’nother thread.

And yeah, I was surprised I was able to find that vid so easily. I expected at least five minutes of searching since I could barely remember anything about it. Took five seconds instead. Cant complain.

I mean, its not like any of this will happen, but kind of fun to discuss it anyhow. And I thusly label you a “Corrector.”

Now its time to try the game and see if I can actually play it!

What if I told you, the Stealth Trap is designed to nerf mesmer portals.

Easiest way to counter stealth is to roll a thief. Everyone is doing it.

Might as well have your class carry you till the next new mmo comes out.

Eliesume.1687:

What if I told you, the Stealth Trap is designed to nerf mesmer portals.

That’s weird..I thought it was a way of making money off of their broken stealth mechanics..hmm..

Counter stealth by dodging CnD. It’s a simple concept and if you conserve your dodge you can be fine.

BTW, if you’re complaining about thieves being “uncatchable” that’s kind of the point behind the whole class. Being able to escape is the core design behind the thief. It’s frustrating, but not OP.

Tuluum.9638:

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

The solution isn’t that simple though. I get the impression they made their Engineer for WvW roaming. If youre a WvW roamer, you’re going to fight thieves pretty much every fight. I roam on my engineer every night and there are nights where I have 20 different fights and every one of them has a thief in them.

My time in-game is spent at about 75% solo roaming. I dont run into this issue, but I have no doubt it can change pretty dramatically from tier to tier. And to be clear, I dont really feel its even a “solution” so much as just a choice of where to invest time. I do run across thieves, but I tend to be pretty successful against them. The second I see them constantly going into stealth and regening their health, Im outta there.

Probably my tier then. 3-4 thieves + 1 support guardian is becoming a popular roaming group in my tier. Seen half a dozen different guild ones in the last week.

Junkpile.7439:

Close your eyes, use aoe skill and hope that you get lucky. Only problem is that most annoying thiefs have huge amount toughness so yo need to get 10 lucky shots in row.

No, you AoE your feet and stand in it. If the thief is melee(most are) they can’t hit you without getting hit themselves. If they run a P/D, they can’t cloak and dagger without getting hit, which means very limited stealth.

personally i dont find HGH all that awesome if anything i’d suggest replace elixir U or elixir S for Tool Kit

Engineer elite Supply Crate is very good against thieves I was told and I’ve found this to be true. Also, Net Shot and Overcharged Shot from Rifle and skills #3 and 5 from FT do well in fighting a thief. A condition eng may want to use Napalm (or FT in general) for the burning, but I don’t run cond and it has already been stated that the Pistol is better for cond damage.

Doomdesire.9365:

Counter stealth by dodging CnD. It’s a simple concept and if you conserve your dodge you can be fine.

Honestly… No. This is the absolute worst advice I would give to someone combating a Thief.

Most players dodge at least once while the thief is in stealth to try and avoid BS. Of course if you see a “Miss”, the natural instinct would be to dodge again. That already puts you at half or zero endurance, while a thief comes out of stealth with no Revealed debuff with no initiative penalty so he can simply CnD again.

Let’s assume you take the BS damage and have to interrupt his rotation by avoiding his CnD.

BTW, if you’re complaining about thieves being “uncatchable” that’s kind of the point behind the whole class. Being able to escape is the core design behind the thief. It’s frustrating, but not OP.

You dodge his CnDs, he’s out of iniative, but now you have this problem where he can’t really stealth again (scoff right here there’s still plenty of ways to stealth), but he’s so “uncatchable” that you can’t really do anything to stop him from resetting the fight by running away.

Basically, you contradict your own advice and it’s such useless bullkitten because it’s all I ever heard when I didn’t know how thieves worked.

This is exactly why I suggested that the OP play a thief to understand how it works. You don’t counter stealth by dodging CnD, you counter his rotation by dodging CnD, just like you counter the rotation of any other profession by dodging. Unless you’re a heavy CC spammer or zerker geared to instagib him after one stun you’re simply not going to counter his stealth enough times to leave him vulnerable for the kill. The core of the problem players have with thieves is in not understanding a thief’s rotation (aka how it works), and much less to do with dodging CnDs.

PS: Mesmers can’t dodge CnD because the thief will just CnD on our illusions but the good ones still have no problems killing Thieves.

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

Thaia.5146:

Usually it goes like this:
Thief: Hey I’m a Thief. I’m gonna kill you!1!!1
5 seconds later
Thief: OH kitten, OH kitten, OH kitten I’M DYING
PUFF
Godmode
REPEAT

+1 to you good sir. Very good summarization of my issues with thief.

He engages, he loses, he runs away. This process just keeps repeating itself until I get bored and waypoint. Thieves are not overpowered as much as they are obnoxious, the epitome of anti-fun.

The only Thief stealth skill that can be actively countered is Shadow Refuge by knocking/pulling the Thief out. This removes any previously stacked stealth and gives the Thief the reveal debuff. Other sources of stealth can’t be actively countered (i.e. you cannot force the Thief out of stealth) so you just have to come up with ways to cope with fighting against a mostly invisible opponent.

Prevention of stealth activation through dazes and stuns really helps lock down a Thief (like it does every other class) but Engineers don’t really have much access to either of those. Best bet with an Engi is to combine tool kit and bomb kit to overwhelm the Thief with AoE and play defensively with Gear Shield to avoid any initial burst. Engineers are pretty lucky because they do have access to spammable ground targetable AoE with grenade/bomb kit. Net turret can be useful too, especially when combined with Supply Crate.

Alternatively, you could just ignore them and go and find some fun elsewhere. 9 times out of 10, I ignore roaming Thieves if I’m on my own as just I can’t be bothered to play yet another game of ‘catch the invisikitten’. It was fun the first couple of times guessing where they might be and timing dodges etc etc, but now I just find it boring. I should probably roll a Thief again myself so I get to be the invisikitten and bore everyone to death ;-)

I laughed because you complained about Mist Form finally working like every other invulnerability besides Mesmer’s distortion. Check Engineer’s shrinking potion and let me know how you feel with your new character.

Sorry for off topic.

How do you counter stealth? Make really good guesses. You can’t see him, but you can still hit him.

wish.1027:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdcB6Ssd38

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

I could post a movie killing bad thieves on my condition necromancer and try to draw conclusions from it, but that would be stupid.

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdcB6Ssd38

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

I could post a movie killing bad thieves on my condition necromancer and try to draw conclusions from it, but that would be stupid.

You say that like 90% of thieves arent predictable bads.

Great video on how to counter a thief your played perfectly. Please post a video of your necromancer beating thieves as I would like to see that as well

XII.9401:

Eliesume.1687:

What if I told you, the Stealth Trap is designed to nerf mesmer portals.

That’s weird..I thought it was a way of making money off of their broken stealth mechanics..hmm..

Considering Viel-Bombing and Portal bombing both use stealth to allow squads o launch surprise attacks, and those squads are usually stacked with 25 might, I’d think the slow to set, expensive trap that’s wide enough to catch said squad, I really think anti-stealth trap is directed at Mesmer.

Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgB1anusH7E

I used to “main” a Warrior and an Elementalist, and Thieves gave me major trouble. However, since I’ve started playing a Ranger, I quickly learned how to counter Thieves. Now I can counter them on my Warrior and my Elementalist, too. Instead of getting completely destroyed, I actually won some fights. On my Ranger, I win most of them, and I’m only level 47. :I

I hate to say it, but … a lot of the complaining is due to a “learn to play” issue. And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t play a Thief. That’s not to say that stealth is a perfect mechanic, because it’s not. Thieves rely on stealth waaaay too much, in my opinion.

zTales.4392:

Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgB1anusH7E

I used to “main” a Warrior and an Elementalist, and Thieves gave me major trouble. However, since I’ve started playing a Ranger, I quickly learned how to counter Thieves. Now I can counter them on my Warrior and my Elementalist, too. Instead of getting completely destroyed, I actually won some fights. On my Ranger, I win most of them, and I’m only level 47. :I

I hate to say it, but … a lot of the complaining is due to a “learn to play” issue. And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t play a Thief. That’s not to say that stealth is a perfect mechanic, because it’s not. Thieves rely on stealth waaaay too much, in my opinion.

im lvl 2 on my thief and i ve beaten many players of all classes except guardians and mesmers and thieves in wvw lol sword/pistol teleport/blind spam ftw lol

wish.1027:

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdcB6Ssd38

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

I could post a movie killing bad thieves on my condition necromancer and try to draw conclusions from it, but that would be stupid.

You say that like 90% of thieves arent predictable bads.

Games should be balanced around good players with good builds using good gear. Period.

vincecontix.1264:

Great video on how to counter a thief your played perfectly. Please post a video of your necromancer beating thieves as I would like to see that as well

Old movie on a power necro. Song on the full movie got ganked by youtube.

Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4cZuKldANE
Full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2IUL4wLcig

That was before cetain cheesebuilds became popular. I would not be able to kill a good d/p thief that fully exploits their stealth and mobility mechanics.

TheGuy.3568:

Your an engineer right running HGH so I can’t pity you since that’s kitten near OP in its own right…

We give up an amazing amount of utility and survivability for a reasonable amount of damage with HGH. In addition, if we run grenades (most do), they are ALL skill shots (except for water combat… where our toss elixirs don’t work properly) and we must be avoiding melee while deciding where to throw our grenades AND spamming our elixirs (whether we need them or not at that moment) to keep our might up.

It isn’t OP at all, despite what some of the upper-tier PvPers say, it is KITTEN HARD TO PLAY, but pays off well when you don’t mess up. I am not a huge fan of it myself, but with the recent nerfs, our options have become more limited.

And before someone jumps in and starts about what a “reasonable” amount of damage is, I give you the same advice that has been echoed on this board several times:

Roll one. Find a good Direct Damage/Condition HGH build. Go to the mists and see if you can maintain a reasonable DPS against the Heavy Golem while maintaining your stacks, and once you think you’ve got it, try it in sPvP… or hot join for a min or two.

Tell me how OP it is when you play it, not when you see it on Youtube.

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdcB6Ssd38

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

I could post a movie killing bad thieves on my condition necromancer and try to draw conclusions from it, but that would be stupid.

You say that like 90% of thieves arent predictable bads.

Games should be balanced around good players with good builds using good gear. Period.

Unfortunately, those good players ANet listens to all seem to be the sPvP elite players, which is NOT a balanced opinion of ANY profession in a game with so many modes. Besides, with only point capture as the sole type of sPvP, that skews to certain skill sets and leaves other professions behind considerably.

This is one of the big reasons that professions that don’t do well in sPvP fare much better in WvW (mesmers and warriors, for example).

Thaia.5146:

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…
2. Thieves can easily escape from EVERY fight. He starts a fight, loses, stealths, heals and resets (or escapes)… and so on. Two days ago I saw a Thief kiting 2 people AND killing a Dolyak in the same time… that’s insane…
3. There is no possible way to counter stealth. I am asking – WITH WHAT? With that useless traps?
4. The risk of roaming as a Thief is 0. Beautiful, round ZERO. He can run away whenever he wants.
I have leveled an Engineer especially for WvW (because my Ele was nerfed again, and no – I’m not talking about D/D but about my Mist Form) and I use dual Pistols + H S B U Elixirs and Supply Crate of course. Traits: 10/30/0/30/0. Armor: Power/Vit/Condi. I have a question – how am I supposed to fight versus someone who is invisible 75% of the time? Glue Shot immobilize and Supply Crate stuns are useful but still – they only let me to harass him – not kill…

What a stupid post. A thief that is constantly in stealth is a thief who isn’t killing you. A thief who runs away is a thief who isn’t killing you. A thief who repeatedly resets the fight is a thief who isn’t killing you. A thief who isn’t killing you is annoying, not overpowered. Grow up and learn the difference.

I finally gave after 1200 hours on a warrior and got my thief to 80, it’s sure nice to never have to worry about dying, to be able to run from spawn to north camp without having to worry about being ganked, and pressing 2 2 2, for 7k heartseekers is pretty easy. Still I love my warrior, people who main thieves just don’t seem to understand how good they got it compared to other classes.

Doomdesire.9365:

Counter stealth by dodging CnD. It’s a simple concept and if you conserve your dodge you can be fine.

BTW, if you’re complaining about thieves being “uncatchable” that’s kind of the point behind the whole class. Being able to escape is the core design behind the thief. It’s frustrating, but not OP.

Stealth through any other ability besides CnD is not preventable. And black powder+hs is not blockable/evadable. Actually, this is more unconditional, provides blinds, blind stomps, shared fields, etc, and most thieves I see use this rather than CnD. It also helps counter the only current counter to stealth: swing your weapon, blow some AoE cooldowns, and hope you’re lucky. But you were blinded that one lucky swing.

So no, CnD being blockable is completely irrelevant.

Bushido.2184:

Doomdesire.9365:

Counter stealth by dodging CnD. It’s a simple concept and if you conserve your dodge you can be fine.

BTW, if you’re complaining about thieves being “uncatchable” that’s kind of the point behind the whole class. Being able to escape is the core design behind the thief. It’s frustrating, but not OP.

Stealth through any other ability besides CnD is not preventable. And black powder+hs is not blockable/evadable. Actually, this is more unconditional, provides blinds, blind stomps, shared fields, etc, and most thieves I see use this rather than CnD. It also helps counter the only current counter to stealth: swing your weapon, blow some AoE cooldowns, and hope you’re lucky. But you were blinded that one lucky swing.

So no, CnD being blockable is completely irrelevant.

Exactly. Well, there is Hide in Shadows. That’s the only stealth skill I even bother trying to interrupt at all. :I

Otherwise, I just have to use my blocks and evades wisely, then smash the little crapper to the ground when he’s visible. lol

Easy answer: Roll a Thief for PvP. I’m not saying to play a Thief because they are great, I am saying it so you have more insight on what is going on on their end.

Thief was my main. I have a pretty good feel for how to run him. Now on my Warrior, I laugh at Thieves in team fights, because although they are invisible, I know their mindset and what they are planning. I see Shadow’s Refuge, they’re going to eat a Stomp, a Bull Rush, and 100blades For Great Justice.

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdcB6Ssd38

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

I could post a movie killing bad thieves on my condition necromancer and try to draw conclusions from it, but that would be stupid.

You say that like 90% of thieves arent predictable bads.

Games should be balanced around good players with good builds using good gear. Period.

If you were a good player youd know it is. Thieves are easy to kill on just about everything as long as they do not sneak up on you, which can be avoided by simply looking around as you move from point A to B. Dieing to thieves is a learn to play issue 99% of the time.

wish.1027:

Thieves are easy to kill on just about everything as long as they do not sneak up on you, which can be avoided by simply looking around as you move from point A to B. Dieing to thieves is a learn to play issue 99% of the time.

Good thieves are easy to kill? No, bad thieves are easy to kill. Of course, I can see why you would say that since you play a thief. One who likes to brag about farming people for an hour and a half. Of course, the implication is that you must be some kind of godlike player to do this on a class that is so easy to kill.

It’s amazing how many godlike players play thief even though playing thief puts them at such a huge disadvantage since they are so easy to kill. In summation, get bent.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/5-24-T7-NSP-DR-GoM/2090271

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

Thieves are easy to kill on just about everything as long as they do not sneak up on you, which can be avoided by simply looking around as you move from point A to B. Dieing to thieves is a learn to play issue 99% of the time.

Good thieves are easy to kill? No, bad thieves are easy to kill. Of course, I can see why you would say that since you play a thief. One who likes to brag about farming people for an hour and a half. Of course, the implication is that you must be some kind of godlike player to do this on a class that is so easy to kill.

It’s amazing how many godlike players play thief even though playing thief puts them at such a huge disadvantage since they are so easy to kill. In summation, get bent.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/5-24-T7-NSP-DR-GoM/2090271

I saw that post, too. I’m from NSP, haha.

Seriously, Wish, that’s just stupid. Stop messing with my teammates or I’ll have to find you and mess you up 1v1. :P

lunyboy.8672:

Unfortunately, those good players ANet listens to all seem to be the sPvP elite players, which is NOT a balanced opinion of ANY profession in a game with so many modes. Besides, with only point capture as the sole type of sPvP, that skews to certain skill sets and leaves other professions behind considerably.

This is one of the big reasons that professions that don’t do well in sPvP fare much better in WvW (mesmers and warriors, for example).

Except that you’re wrong as Mesmers are great in high level tPvP, and warriors are still bad in WvW. Its just that in WvW, most players are playing at such a low skill level that it gives the illusion that Warriors are “viable.” (They’re not)

I don’t know whats sadder… People complaining about Thieves, or the fact there’s between 1-3 topics about them being OP when they’ve been nerfed already.

If you don’t like me ganking you on your up leveled clothies, don’t go into WvW >:|

EdotMP.1835:

I don’t know whats sadder… People complaining about Thieves, or the fact there’s between 1-3 topics about them being OP when they’ve been nerfed already.

I think that says a whole lot about what the stealth mechanic allows a player to accomplish.. They have been nerfed, and yet, are still extremely, extremely effective even in the hands of a novice. Perhaps not as OP as some make it out to be, but it is certainly not a weak class.

Though I fully understand this line of thought is foreign to the majority of thief players.

Tuluum.9638:

EdotMP.1835:

I don’t know whats sadder… People complaining about Thieves, or the fact there’s between 1-3 topics about them being OP when they’ve been nerfed already.

I think that says a whole lot about what the stealth mechanic allows a player to accomplish.. They have been nerfed, and yet, are still extremely, extremely effective even in the hands of a novice. Perhaps not as OP as some make it out to be, but it is certainly not a weak class.

Though I fully understand this line of thought is foreign to the majority of thief players.

The problem has never been the burst damage as that does have counters when you know it is coming and even if a thief blindsides you with huge burst that is what downstate is for. Thieves should be dangerous.

That was the whole point of the necro versus thief video I posted above that I made when d/d was the build that 90% of thieves played.

The problem is the amount of stealth and mobility that can be obtained. The thief builds that give the most frustration are the ones that min/max stealth and mobility, not damage. They are effectively troll builds and any developer that allows troll builds to flourish is not a good developer.

That doesn’t just apply to thieves, BTW.

Reikou.7068:

lunyboy.8672:

Unfortunately, those good players ANet listens to all seem to be the sPvP elite players, which is NOT a balanced opinion of ANY profession in a game with so many modes. Besides, with only point capture as the sole type of sPvP, that skews to certain skill sets and leaves other professions behind considerably.

This is one of the big reasons that professions that don’t do well in sPvP fare much better in WvW (mesmers and warriors, for example).

Except that you’re wrong as Mesmers are great in high level tPvP, and warriors are still bad in WvW. Its just that in WvW, most players are playing at such a low skill level that it gives the illusion that Warriors are “viable.” (They’re not)

Warriors not viable in WvW huh? That’s an interesting opinion. I wonder if you are referring to roaming 1vX or something, because as part of a team/zerg a well built and played warrior can be quite beneficial. It’s also possible that I am so terrible at WvW that I am just missing some super obvious point. PvE warrior farming builds would be terrible in WvW, maybe that’s what you mean?

Stealth should be like Necros death shroud, you lose all your useful weapon skills and utilities and you cant gain health.

Talking stealth traps again.

They can be really efficient and fun used against thieves. I give you an example as I have never killed a thieve that easily.

Last week we where the blue faction and one evening I was constantly getting the hyleks on our side and capped Danelon with their help.
So what I did was I put a stealth trap just in front of the hyleks in the camp. Then I just waited in the middle of the camp where the guards are – not really hiding.

Seconds after I layed down the trap for the first time I saw a “woosh” and a destealthed thieve heavily attacked by the hyleks. The only challenge I had was to finish the thieve (before the hyleks did) so that I got the rewards for the “kill” – Everything else was done by the friendly frogs. Do I have to mention that this thieve did not show up again?

So my point is: In order for the stealth traps to be usefull you have to use them like traps. You have to use a bait as you would not catch a mouse in a trap without a bait.
As regular WvW players I don`t have to tell you what these baits are for thieves.

_______________________________________________________________

One thing to add on how to counter thieves that are attacking (for example) dolyaks – - and this goes out to all dd eles.
I use a vere rarely used build in WvW as I am using the water XII trait – This applies all your auras to (up to 4) nearby allies and (what the description does not say) it also applies all the buffs that go with your auras.
I am using Air I, Earth III + V, Water III + IX + XII and Arcane V, so auras will apply fury, swiftness and protection to me and my allies alongside to the auras` effects.
Additionally I am using “Superior Rune of the earth” so actually I have access to 4 different auras – Shocking and Frost Aura from dagger, Fire Aura from fire field + magnetic leap and a “oh sh..” magnetic aura from the runes.

All theory put beside – The trick is just to apply an aura to a dolyak (for the example) and get the thieve stuned, slowed, burned and the dolyak protected and speeded up (and with a switch to water even regenerated).
So most of the time 2 things happen – The thieves runs away or he is killed by me – rarely are the dolyak or me killed.
(If you never tried Water XII with an dd ele you should give it [thieves put aside] a try as it turns the dd ele in a very effective support class for a lot of situations – applying frost aura to your group in a 5 vs 5 situation for example is a killer)

Also in a 1v1 situation auras are very effective to counter stealth – I will usually put on frost aura (maybe heal me), turn into fire to spam the fire fields, turn into air to be ready to use shocking aura and updraft.
Needless to say that you can trick unexperienced thieves into attacking you out of stealth while you cast churning earth.

I am not saying that I kill thieves everytime (while I often do), but usally they give up after some time and look for a more easy kill.

May it help some of you and sorry for being a little offtopic by explaining my WvW build.

Thrashbarg.9820:

Warriors not viable in WvW huh? That’s an interesting opinion. I wonder if you are referring to roaming 1vX or something, because as part of a team/zerg a well built and played warrior can be quite beneficial. It’s also possible that I am so terrible at WvW that I am just missing some super obvious point. PvE warrior farming builds would be terrible in WvW, maybe that’s what you mean?

I don’t deny that a well built and played warrior can be beneficial. Having another body on the field is always beneficial.

The problem is that it is always outclassed by another profession, no matter what it tries to do.

Is there any situation in WvW you can think of where a warrior would be the ideal profession to fill that role? A role that no other profession could do remotely better?

This is the issue with Warrior “viability.” This is the problem with Warriors. Yes they can be decent, but the team/zerg/whatever would perform better if that player played another profession.

VOLKON.1290:

Thaia.5146:

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…

OK, this needs to be clarified. Anti stealth traps are NOT meant to be used to fight a thief that you’ve already engaged in combat. If you’re trying to use it that way then you deserve to be face down in the dirt. They’re meant to be tactically placed in order to minimize access to a certain area of stealth players. For example, if you know when the enemy breaks down your tower gate that they’re going to try to sneak a stealthed mesmer in there with a portal…

Please, stop with the complaints that the traps are useless. A blueberry pie is useless if you’re trying to drive in a nail with it. But it still makes one tasty snack when used properly.

Blink.

Because once you’ve passed the chokepoint there is tons of random open space to try and guess where the stealthed person will go. Ironically both stealth classes have multiple teleport skills. Thus a smart mesmer or thief will not hit a supply trap in a location such as you described.

In any keep there is a ton of open space, also mesmers get this thing called distortion. I hear it can be used pretty effectively.

zTales.4392:

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

Thieves are easy to kill on just about everything as long as they do not sneak up on you, which can be avoided by simply looking around as you move from point A to B. Dieing to thieves is a learn to play issue 99% of the time.

Good thieves are easy to kill? No, bad thieves are easy to kill. Of course, I can see why you would say that since you play a thief. One who likes to brag about farming people for an hour and a half. Of course, the implication is that you must be some kind of godlike player to do this on a class that is so easy to kill.

It’s amazing how many godlike players play thief even though playing thief puts them at such a huge disadvantage since they are so easy to kill. In summation, get bent.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/5-24-T7-NSP-DR-GoM/2090271

I saw that post, too. I’m from NSP, haha.

Seriously, Wish, that’s just stupid. Stop messing with my teammates or I’ll have to find you and mess you up 1v1. :P

1v1 fighting sounds fun. Add me and we can do it sometime.

About farming NSP… I was on my guardian til you guys decided that since it took more than 3 of you to fight me and win youd just zerg me every time I was anywhere with 10+ people, so I switched to my thief so you couldnt. Its your own fault. But really, it just sounds like you’re mad Oozo.