How do you figure?
Your whole argument is based on the dbl being easier to defend. If you read what I wrote it clearly isn’t.
It absolutely is Puck.
The fact that you can’t plant yourself in a north tower and treb garri is just one example — it’s slower process; swords can appear on the map and that doesn’t mean the gate is already down and the tower/keep flipped like in alpine. You actually have time to run and defend. Pair that with revisions to keep wps and it becomes infinitely easier to respond to.
On top of that, there’s a lot of creative places to put siege that gives full advantage to the defensive side. I watched ONE guy from SFR (with spectacular aim) keep out a 10 man group from Hills on DBL (whatever the name is), with strategically placed trebs. People couldn’t even get close to the gate or vuln wall.
Oh and those two spots you say can’t be countered. Well, they can be countered I found spots.
Pair that with the travel time it takes to cover DBL and get from one structure to another, and that added time aids the defensive team.
How do you figure?
Your whole argument is based on the dbl being easier to defend. If you read what I wrote it clearly isn’t.
It absolutely is Puck.
The fact that you can’t plant yourself in a north tower and treb garri is just one example — it’s slower process; swords can appear on the map and that doesn’t mean the gate is already down and the tower/keep flipped like in alpine. You actually have time to run and defend. Pair that with revisions to keep wps and it becomes infinitely easier to respond to.
On top of that, there’s a lot of creative places to put siege that gives full advantage to the defensive side. I watched on guy from SFR keep out a 10 man group from Hills on DBL (whatever the name is), with strategically placed trebs. People couldn’t even get close to the gate or vuln wall.
Pair that with the travel time it takes to cover DBL and get from one structure to another, and that added time aids the defensive team.
Overall, it’s an easier map to defend.
A treb isn’t going to do anything against a large group dropping multiple catas in those spots you can’t ac and rotating bubbles.
Same thing goes for trebbing from towers. That is usually a tactic used by smaller groups against heavily sieged structures, this isn’t something a blob needs to waste its time with when they can throw down proxy catas.
And if anything the longer travel distance hurts defenders, especially from surprise attacks.
I agree the bl is easier to defend against small groups but it is much easier for large groups to k-train, which is a big part of the reason it failed so spectacularly. It’s not roamer friendly if you enjoy small scale fighting, and zergers prefer EB. It pretty much only draws in players that like to PvD when there is no one defending, if someone shows up to defend they just move on to something else.
Also known as Puck when my account isn’t suspended
LGN
I think people keep forgetting that those generators can be used both to attack AND defend. Think old-school days of elementalists standing on top of walls.
Part of the joy in WvW for me is finding counters to what folks say are uncounterable. It’s physics. I merrily drag along members of my server for vast experiments. Then we jump with joy when we find the solution.
I agree that DBL isn’t as roamer friendly as the alpine, and truth be told, I prefer the alpine .. but I think DBL offers some kind of parity (or an attempt at it) for the lowest ranked server in ways that can be creatively defended.
I have solutions for ALL proxy cata spots
Surprises the heck out of the enemy when they’re starting to suddenly die
And yes not being able to counter siege is a problem when the supposed weakest server is being stuck with the bl. A determined zerg will eventually make it into any keep but it requires a lot of work in alpine since you can counter siege and slow them down. In the dbl the zerg just has to hit certain points and they will roll right over the smaller force.
Nah… ABL is also full of spots where you can no longer counter siege. Worse: These are the double wall spots. If a larger zerg decide to take Garrison by the NE wall, God forbid they have elementalists, because nothing will hit these catas except for a AC on top of that wall (which will melt in seconds to meteor showers). Same goes for Bay. Sure, on Bay you can counter treb them when the outer wall is down. But you need to shoot with lot of power, and the attacking force can easily rotate 2 bubbles to deny 1 treb of hitting. Imagine if they have 4-5 catas. You’re not stopping that. Hills is problably the only structure where you can proper counter any attacker siege.
The problem with DBL before was that the defending team never had enough people because everyone but the karma trainers refused to play the map. So it’s not a map design problem. It’s a people’s mentality problem.
And yes not being able to counter siege is a problem when the supposed weakest server is being stuck with the bl. A determined zerg will eventually make it into any keep but it requires a lot of work in alpine since you can counter siege and slow them down. In the dbl the zerg just has to hit certain points and they will roll right over the smaller force.
Nah… ABL is also full of spots where you can no longer counter siege. Worse: These are the double wall spots. If a larger zerg decide to take Garrison by the NE wall, God forbid they have elementalists, because nothing will hit these catas except for a AC on top of that wall (which will melt in seconds to meteor showers). Same goes for Bay. Sure, on Bay you can counter treb them when the outer wall is down. But you need to shoot with lot of power, and the attacking force can easily rotate 2 bubbles to deny 1 treb of hitting. Imagine if they have 4-5 catas. You’re not stopping that. Hills is problably the only structure where you can proper counter any attacker siege.
The problem with DBL before was that the defending team never had enough people because everyone but the karma trainers refused to play the map. So it’s not a map design problem. It’s a people’s mentality problem.
NE wall on garri has plenty of spots to drop ac’s that are nearly impossible to hit. Even if they do break through right there the inner cannons can destroy the catas before the attackers can get close to you.
Same goes for bay. You might not be able to completely avoid damage with the ac’s but you avoid 90% of it if you place it properly. Plus those spots can all be mortared .
Also known as Puck when my account isn’t suspended
LGN
Hopefully the changes to Arid will make it good enough it’ll be well received, and that’ll open the doors for eventually having 3 different borderlands.
Maybe even more, 4 or 5, rotating quarterly, maybe getting a 4th and a 5th 3 and 6 years in the future.
Jungle or forest with trees and undergrowth that blocks LoS along routes to objectives and slows movement, so people have to decide whether to risk the road out of need or laziness, like in real life. Oh, and better visibility out than in.
That wouldn’t go over well. The barricades in DBL were removed after people complained too much and they were only there to slow movement down. Putting that mechanic in another map won’t work if it didn’t work the first time
When you look at the 3 maps together, red one is the middle one. Putting red as DBL makes things more symertrical. That may be an easy reason why red gets DBL.
Still, the arguement of which map is easier to defend is interesting.
Hopefully the changes to Arid will make it good enough it’ll be well received, and that’ll open the doors for eventually having 3 different borderlands.
Maybe even more, 4 or 5, rotating quarterly, maybe getting a 4th and a 5th 3 and 6 years in the future.
Jungle or forest with trees and undergrowth that blocks LoS along routes to objectives and slows movement, so people have to decide whether to risk the road out of need or laziness, like in real life. Oh, and better visibility out than in.
That wouldn’t go over well. The barricades in DBL were removed after people complained too much and they were only there to slow movement down. Putting that mechanic in another map won’t work if it didn’t work the first time
It was more of an issue with how the map was supposed to encourage the zergs to break up but everything they added made the map unfriendly to roamers. The barricades took way too much time for solo/small groups to destroy to be worth the effort, but zergs could melt them in seconds.
I always thought it would have been interesting to add a mist barricade that was indestructible but allowed 1 player through every 5 seconds. This would let a small group take short cuts but force the zerg to take the long way around or risk getting hit while they are divided.
Also known as Puck when my account isn’t suspended
LGN
for the people complain about the map being hard to navigate go and look through the patch notes for the past few months they have been making changes to it so we don’t know if it will still be how it was before
for the people complain about the map being hard to navigate go and look through the patch notes for the past few months they have been making changes to it so we don’t know if it will still be how it was before
Suuuuuuure… “changes”. Looking through notes starting starting May 17th and searching for “desert”:
Fixed a bug with the teleporter on the dunes above the Fire Keep.
Fixed a bug with automatic blessing at the east Earth Shrine.
Fixed a bug with a jump pad on the north side of the Air Keep.
Fixed a bug with a floating mortar in the Air Keep.
Changed the jump platforms at the Air Keep so that they launch players similarly to how jump mushrooms work in the jungle maps.
Removed some of the jump platforms, since the new jump platforms launch players further.
Banker added.
Wanna bet that it’ll be exactly like before with minor bugfixes?
for the people complain about the map being hard to navigate go and look through the patch notes for the past few months they have been making changes to it so we don’t know if it will still be how it was before
Suuuuuuure… “changes”. Looking through notes starting starting May 17th and searching for “desert”:
Fixed a bug with the teleporter on the dunes above the Fire Keep.
Fixed a bug with automatic blessing at the east Earth Shrine.
Fixed a bug with a jump pad on the north side of the Air Keep.
Fixed a bug with a floating mortar in the Air Keep.
Changed the jump platforms at the Air Keep so that they launch players similarly to how jump mushrooms work in the jungle maps.
Removed some of the jump platforms, since the new jump platforms launch players further.
Banker added.
Wanna bet that it’ll be exactly like before with minor bugfixes?
How convenient that you “forgot” to look through the April patch notes that brought about a kittenton of changes to the DBL
Why are you bringing back a map that makes most players groan when it’s mentioned in WvW? Are you honestly that out of touch with your player base. Do a quick poll, go to any server on any ebg or any bl and ask a guild that’s running or in map chat if they like that map… the majority of the time you’ll get a solid no. I know I have accounts on two servers and Ive already seen the map chats. Or maybe you’re forcing it because you made it and you don’t want it to go to waste? That seems like the rule with Anet. If it’s terrible just try to minor bug fix and release it later… it’ll grow on people right? How about scrapping it altogether and working on some of the major lag/d/c and server balancing issues that have been plaguing this game mode for well over 2+ years now?
No…? Well it’s ok, you can just bleed players and add living stories until you have one megaserver and everyone is in a giant blob killing npcs.
Why are you bringing back a map that makes most players groan when it’s mentioned in WvW?
because they ran a poll and the vast majority of players did not want DBL deleted and the vast majority of players wanted the model which they are implementing now
we knew this was going to happen for many months now
for the people complain about the map being hard to navigate go and look through the patch notes for the past few months they have been making changes to it so we don’t know if it will still be how it was before
Suuuuuuure… “changes”. Looking through notes starting starting May 17th and searching for “desert”:
Fixed a bug with the teleporter on the dunes above the Fire Keep.
Fixed a bug with automatic blessing at the east Earth Shrine.
Fixed a bug with a jump pad on the north side of the Air Keep.
Fixed a bug with a floating mortar in the Air Keep.
Changed the jump platforms at the Air Keep so that they launch players similarly to how jump mushrooms work in the jungle maps.
Removed some of the jump platforms, since the new jump platforms launch players further.
Banker added.
Wanna bet that it’ll be exactly like before with minor bugfixes?
How convenient that you “forgot” to look through the April patch notes that brought about a kittenton of changes to the DBL
I didnt forget. That was still when we played it. What I quoted suggested its been changed since it was taken down. How convenient that you missed that.
I think the new system will make balancing hard but it was the best choice to give the new BL to red. I am curious how it will work out on tuesday. I never liked the D-BL, because most of the fighting I have done on this map was pve instead of having “social interactions” (that’s the word HoD teached me for enemy encounters), but if it is only one map, then I can just avoid going there, so that’s fine.
I am SBI and I am also very disappointed to lose the link with HoD and all the guilds and commanders I ran with. How our communites worked together made me play a lot more wvw/gw2 again and it was tons of fun. It runs shivers down my spine that it’s possible that as of next week we may be on opposing sites of the battlefield or that one of us may be paired up with -we all know what server-.
For the love of God – get the linking right. If your aim is to encourage balance across all servers then common sense would dictate that either (1) there should be no high tier servers with links (it is just ridiculous that in T1//T2/T3 EU any server is linked for instance), (2) have sensible server population caps based on effective wvw player hours, (3) merge servers or whatever else has been suggested. One thing for sure what you are currently doing doesn’t work.
for the people complain about the map being hard to navigate go and look through the patch notes for the past few months they have been making changes to it so we don’t know if it will still be how it was before
Suuuuuuure… “changes”. Looking through notes starting starting May 17th and searching for “desert”:
Fixed a bug with the teleporter on the dunes above the Fire Keep.
Fixed a bug with automatic blessing at the east Earth Shrine.
Fixed a bug with a jump pad on the north side of the Air Keep.
Fixed a bug with a floating mortar in the Air Keep.
Changed the jump platforms at the Air Keep so that they launch players similarly to how jump mushrooms work in the jungle maps.
Removed some of the jump platforms, since the new jump platforms launch players further.
Banker added.
Wanna bet that it’ll be exactly like before with minor bugfixes?
How convenient that you “forgot” to look through the April patch notes that brought about a kittenton of changes to the DBL
I didnt forget. That was still when we played it. What I quoted suggested its been changed since it was taken down. How convenient that you missed that.
DBL was changed a lot before it was taken down. Getting around in there is a lot easier now. They removed a lot of the cliffs/walls etc and even added stairs in spots that weren’t there before. It’s much easier and quicker to get from place to place. As well they changed the wp’s so that anything you own that’s upgraded can have the wp accessed just like in Alpine.
Seriously if more people had checked that out just before Alpine came back, AND read ALL the notes for the updates to the DBL’s I think maybe the prejudice might be a little less. A lot more people were playing on the DBL’s just before they went away.
Yes the north towers are still simply two structures with no strategic value other than PPT and WxP but maybe they’ll do something about that… frankly I don’t care. The three keeps alone are a lot of fun and the layout is nowhere near as bad as the nay sayers think and say it is. imo
So aside from hating DBL when it came out, is this going to be the norm going forward? If so, do you have a jungle themed BL hiding somewhere you’re going to torture Green with and leave ABL on blue ?
So aside from hating DBL when it came out, is this going to be the norm going forward? If so, do you have a jungle themed BL hiding somewhere you’re going to torture Green with and leave ABL on blue ?
I honestly find playing in a 4 year old map more torturous than playing on DBL.
So aside from hating DBL when it came out, is this going to be the norm going forward? If so, do you have a jungle themed BL hiding somewhere you’re going to torture Green with and leave ABL on blue ?
I honestly find playing in a 4 year old map more torturous than playing on DBL.
I’m all for new maps if they aren’t terrible. I hated the DBL because running around it was a complete chore, the map itself was a pretty cool design if this were PvE but it’s not PvE. They went overboard with the vertical stuff and chasms was a lot of the problem, there was simply way to much going on ion the map design for it to be a good WvW map.
I hope they have made some big changes to it, if we must be stuck with it at it should be playable at least.
So aside from hating DBL when it came out, is this going to be the norm going forward? If so, do you have a jungle themed BL hiding somewhere you’re going to torture Green with and leave ABL on blue ?
I honestly find playing in a 4 year old map more torturous than playing on DBL.
Then I hope you never realize that there is a map called EB.
At least Alpine has changed quite substantially during these 4 years.
So aside from hating DBL when it came out, is this going to be the norm going forward? If so, do you have a jungle themed BL hiding somewhere you’re going to torture Green with and leave ABL on blue ?
I honestly find playing in a 4 year old map more torturous than playing on DBL.
Then I hope you never realize that there is a map called EB.
At least Alpine has changed quite substantially during these 4 years.
I don’t like the Alpine maps at all, not one bit. They are cancer to me
So aside from hating DBL when it came out, is this going to be the norm going forward? If so, do you have a jungle themed BL hiding somewhere you’re going to torture Green with and leave ABL on blue ?
I honestly find playing in a 4 year old map more torturous than playing on DBL.
Then I hope you never realize that there is a map called EB.
At least Alpine has changed quite substantially during these 4 years.
When did I said I play in the Eternal Blobgrounds? That’s another 4 year old map which is even worse because everyone flock it. Mindless pug blobs everywhere. I only go there if I feel like zerg dodging.
And what changes ABL received other than removal of the lake for the bloodlust ruins?
Yea, but that everyone goes to EB could also mean, that this is the map-type and the playstyle the “average” wvw player enjoys the most and the majority of the players may want to play it. Everyone likes different things. But we cannot expect arenanet to adapt to our personal wishes if they do not represent the wishes of the majority of players.
hmmm, since this is a borderland map thread and everyone got their head on some weeds ill join the fuzz not on Eternal Battlegrind feast but on Edge of the Moist map.
I’m SO happy the desert BLs will be back. I have missed them so much! The Alpine BLs are so boring after having run the desert BLs for so long! Thank you so much for finally bringing them back!
On a similar note, have you considered having four servers per tier and having two of each? I think that would be amazing! I know that would require a change to EBG, but is it something you might ever consider doing?
pros:
-queue? (i think not)
-bandwagon? (you can bandwagon all you like cuz it doesn’t assure you you can beat everybody)
-server loyalty? (alas servers will have a true meaning)
-glicko? (who needs tiers anyway)
-unformal alliances? (Guild Wars on Worlds vs Worlds)
-kitten PCs? (go buy a new one instead of spending $$ on gems)
-etc etc
cons:
-roamers? (Q_Q)
-too much work for…
.l.
.l.
.l.
V
I’m SO happy the desert BLs will be back. I have missed them so much! The Alpine BLs are so boring after having run the desert BLs for so long! Thank you so much for finally bringing them back!
On a similar note, have you considered having four servers per tier and having two of each? I think that would be amazing! I know that would require a change to EBG, but is it something you might ever consider doing?
With the queues we already have the way things are this would be nothing short of a complete disaster.
Just make Screenshot of Eternal Battleground QUEUE now and make one after 1 week.
The queue at top tier server will reach the 100+ man at primetime like it was before removal of DBL.
Top tier servers already strugle to fit all their guilds in alphine borders now with the removal of 1 of them they will have to fit even more guilds into 2 alphine maps.
Great ArenaNOT.
Clearly they are just trying to encourage the population to spread out across more servers))))
Which will clearly never happen.
It didn’t happen in 4 Years …wont happen in 10 more if ever.
Alphine border coming back made huge amount of WvW players joining back gw2 now with this change there will be people who will leave again – probably they will leave for good this time getting fed up with monority decided for majority.
Question here is will WvW survive this.
I have not met a single player who came back because of Alpine. Maybe a few popped in for nostalgia’s sake, but it was very fleeting.
There were two polls on this subject, one was to disable Desert and one was on mixed borderlands. Both had a majority wanting both desert and mixed borderlands. The fact that both alpine and desert are in at the same time allows players to play as they wish. Nobody is forcing you to go to desert just like nobody is forcing you to go to alpine or EBG.
In T3, the only maps that are ever queued are EBG (95% of queues) and maybe the perceived weakest server (CD at the moment, SoS if CD isn’t in play). If the perceived weakest server gets desert, you’ll see people there.
In T3, the only maps that are ever queued are EBG (95% of queues) and maybe the perceived weakest server (CD at the moment, SoS if CD isn’t in play). If the perceived weakest server gets desert, you’ll see people there.
Unlikely… Maybe people looking to k-train. But all the DBL haters will avoid it at all costs.
Bring on unbalanced maps… you cant have 2 different maps, it truly is unbalanced. But then again everything that Anet is kittenedly unbalanced, like the massive power creep.
But then again there are so many kitten smoking wannabes on this forum who do nothing but kitten complain about every little thing and Anet is trying to accommodate y’all.
Can you have different maps for different BLs? sure… but if they arent balanced maps eg APL is 2 Dimensional and DBL is 3 dimensional, that is just down right kitten.
All the kittens were written by me and not the auto censor
Bring on unbalanced maps… you cant have 2 different maps, it truly is unbalanced. But then again everything that Anet is kittenedly unbalanced, like the massive power creep.
But then again there are so many kitten smoking wannabes on this forum who do nothing but kitten complain about every little thing and Anet is trying to accommodate y’all.
Can you have different maps for different BLs? sure… but if they arent balanced maps eg APL is 2 Dimensional and DBL is 3 dimensional, that is just down right kitten.
All the kittens were written by me and not the auto censor
Nothing is balanced, it can’t be, there are too many moving parts. Alpine isn’t even balanced with itself, EBG isn’t perfectly balanced, the 3 servers aren’t balanced in a match, the 9 classes aren’t balanced, coverage isn’t balanced.
The sooner you get over the myth of balance, the sooner you can actually have fun.
And for the record, alpine has just as many instant-death drops as desert. The difference is it’s not obvious they’re instant-death drops because of the sloping terrain.
Nothing is balanced, it can’t be, there are too many moving parts. Alpine isn’t even balanced with itself, EBG isn’t perfectly balanced, the 3 servers aren’t balanced in a match, the 9 classes aren’t balanced, coverage isn’t balanced.
The sooner you get over the myth of balance, the sooner you can actually have fun.
And for the record, alpine has just as many instant-death drops as desert. The difference is it’s not obvious they’re instant-death drops because of the sloping terrain.
I think you missed the point… 3 of the same BL’s is balanced… 2 BLs of one kind and 1 of another is not balanced. the unbalanced part is DBL is multi leveled (3D) where as APL is essentially single leveled (2D), this in itself makes the 2 maps very different and very unbalanced.
Lets move on to EBG for the most part the map is rather balanced (well it was until they moved breakable walls.. added more breakable walls in). Each keep has the same number of ways to attack from (although the double gates do need to be adjusted so that a couple of the keeps cant have both their gates attacked at the same time)
9 Classes that are not balanced… yeeep totally different topic and one that gets looked at by Anet before the start of each new PVP season and quite honestly until they move WVW into the same system as PVP rather than PVE it will always be unbalanced.
Balance isnt a myth, its what lets you stand up every day, and Im not the one complaining, just pointing out that having different maps for the BLs is a bad idea, since Anet already has a lot of balance issues already and they are just creating a whole new one. I am all for having 3DBL’s or 3 APL’s
well i guess that explains why dh has been able to get to 2nd place for most of this week so far in t4….and it also explains why yb is pppting like crazzzzy since last reset.
but why do you have to reset the scores? Not that anyone understands what score does or what not but its annoying still that u would kinda do this especially when dh has a chance of getting in 2nd place for the first time since the 2nd mergers….and the 2nd time overall since the 1st mergers (i think thats right).
Yb ppting way harder than u guys were able to in T4. Out of the 3 (cd/yb/sbi), sbi is still the one that belongs the most in T4.
Look at the scores SBI had when fighting in T4. It was higher than what CD ever reached and higher than YB right now and is currently beating SoS as well as CD clearly. CD belongs in T4 the most and I see nobody but you that doesn’t agree with that. But it will change with new linkups anyway.
I wanted to let you know that the mixed borderlands will be coming with Tuesday’s release! This means that the red borderlands will now always be the Desert Borderlands and blue and green borderlands will always be the Alpine Borderlands. Changing the map will require an estimated 45-90 minutes of WvW downtime around the time of the release. This change also requires us to end the match early (on the Tuesday before the release), and run a new match from Tuesday to Friday. As a reminder, that Friday is also when new world links will be happening.
It better include the jumping buff, as well as all other original (sans the mid event, that was horrid and you were correct to remove it) mechanics so we can take monuments again instead of pretending to.
Not keeping all IT jobs here is a major reason IT is so bad HERE. 33y IT 10y IT Security
I wanted to let you know that the mixed borderlands will be coming with Tuesday’s release! This means that the red borderlands will now always be the Desert Borderlands and blue and green borderlands will always be the Alpine Borderlands. Changing the map will require an estimated 45-90 minutes of WvW downtime around the time of the release. This change also requires us to end the match early (on the Tuesday before the release), and run a new match from Tuesday to Friday. As a reminder, that Friday is also when new world links will be happening.
It better include the jumping buff, as well as all other original (sans the mid event, that was horrid and you were correct to remove it) mechanics so we can take monuments again instead of pretending to.
There problably still the gimmicks that the shrines added around the keeps like:
- Jump pads, knockback turrets and 0 fall dmg buff around air keep;
- Fire Spitting turrets, Lava Pool shortcuts and lava walking around Fire keep;
- Cripping Turrets, Walls and Stealth on Sandstorm around earth keep.
They did removed some jump pads around the furthest border of air keep (like near the south east camp) to remove the ammount of walking people needed to reach the southern part if they didn’t owned air keep or the shrines.
Personally I would love EotM added to the mix as a second central map. It would bring all the EotM population back into WvW.
Since we would have complete variety now when the next map is released everyone could just play what they like but contribute to the same server score.
I found spots.
