Guild Wars 2

Snorcha.7586:

target management when fighting a stealth based classed is exceptionally annoying and quite frankly bad. They need to allow your target to stay locked on but hide it when they go stealthed.

I agree with this but likely (listen carefully as I am actually in favor of this) they don’t allow this because of mesmer stealth. While it is easy to spot the real player vs the clone it isn’t supposed to be a tab target after they stealth. Likely this was implemented to keep the clones relevant even after the stealth ended. This seems reasonable none the less. It is not difficult to re target a thief but for many players the shock value of not have the target already in sight as the pop out of stealth is an issue.

All this being said in a 1v1 fight it won’t make as much difference. In a group fight it could be useful.

Snorcha.7586:

target management when fighting a stealth based classed is exceptionally annoying and quite frankly bad. They need to allow your target to stay locked on but hide it when they go stealthed.

That is a very good point. That is part of the frustration when fighting Thieves..win or lose. They also know how difficult it is and use it to their advantage.

Some good ideas posted. I don’t think in general people are that opposed to stealth. What does drive them nuts is the amount of times a Thief can use stealth during a fight. What might be an idea is to make it either more costly or not last as long for each time you stealth or try to stealth. Diminishing returns. Just like some games have a 5 second root the first time. Then when you get rooted again it is only for 3 seconds etc etc

also, full heals and condition removal with faster movement while in stealth make it a pretty easy mechanic for my thief. Laughably easy in fact.

Forzani.2584:

Some good ideas posted. I don’t think in general people are that opposed to stealth. What does drive them nuts is the amount of times a Thief can use stealth during a fight. What might be an idea is to make it either more costly or not last as long for each time you stealth or try to stealth. Diminishing returns. Just like some games have a 5 second root the first time. Then when you get rooted again it is only for 3 seconds etc etc

Then we need that for cc too as well since i find chain stunning just as annoying :P

MrAmputatoes.6031:

Forzani.2584:

Some good ideas posted. I don’t think in general people are that opposed to stealth. What does drive them nuts is the amount of times a Thief can use stealth during a fight. What might be an idea is to make it either more costly or not last as long for each time you stealth or try to stealth. Diminishing returns. Just like some games have a 5 second root the first time. Then when you get rooted again it is only for 3 seconds etc etc

Then we need that for cc too as well since i find chain stunning just as annoying :P

Agree

i find this suggestions pointless unless you add suggestions to severly nerf other classes to make it fair

thieves are already considered bottom tier in pvp (yes few teams run 1 but nobody would consider to bring more, same goes for pve too btw), let’s beat the dead horse

in fact i would actually love to see anet to bring other classes to thief current level:
- you shouldn’t be able to go tank and do dmg regardless what class you play
- CCs should have very high CD and last only 1 sec
- any high dmg spells should come at high costs (either cD or recources)
- HP pool from every class should be brough to thief class
- traits that improve toughness should be removed
- all stability spells should be put on 90 sec CD
- all heals should be nerfed to heal for 30% of HP
- all aoe from every class should have long travel time like cluster bomb
- all ranged weapons should have their dmg reduced by half at least
- melee attacks should have positional reuiqrement (aka you can’t do skull crack unless you face the person, if you hit it from wrong side the person doesn’t get stunned but immobbed for 1/4 sec)
- all aoe team support utilities should be removed
- 90% of the utilities shouldn’t be useable underwater
- when you use ranged spells underwater that involve some kind of movement it should daze you (yes, thieves that that underwater spell that dazes themself….ironically)
- condis from each class should be nerfed, each class shouldn’t be able to put more than 3 condis at time
- invulnerability spells should be removed
- protection spells should be removed

i mean i can continue with this ridicilous list but this is what it mean to play a thief currently; so yeah sure, let’s implement suggestions from OP but might as well implement this silly list as well

Cynz.9437:

i find this suggestions pointless unless you add suggestions to severly nerf other classes to make it fair

thieves are already considered bottom tier in pvp (yes few teams run 1 but nobody would consider to bring more, same goes for pve too btw), let’s beat the dead horse

This is ‘WvW’ Discussion. If you believe Thieves are weak in PvP then Anet should consider fixing it. It seems like a common refrain …but but we are weak in ‘fill in the blank’ . So what many are saying is yea, we are freaking overpowered in WvW roaming but it’s only fair because we are weak in other parts of the game.

Cynz.9437:

i find this suggestions pointless unless you add suggestions to severly nerf other classes to make it fair

thieves are already considered bottom tier in pvp (yes few teams run 1 but nobody would consider to bring more, same goes for pve too btw), let’s beat the dead horse

I find my thief quite easy to play in WvWvW, so perhaps the problem is balancing the game around Spvp?

Forzani.2584:

Cynz.9437:

i find this suggestions pointless unless you add suggestions to severly nerf other classes to make it fair

thieves are already considered bottom tier in pvp (yes few teams run 1 but nobody would consider to bring more, same goes for pve too btw), let’s beat the dead horse

This is ‘WvW’ Discussion. If you believe Thieves are weak in PvP then Anet should consider fixing it. It seems like a common refrain …but but we are weak in ‘fill in the blank’ . So what many are saying is yea, we are freaking overpowered in WvW roaming but it’s only fair because we are weak in other parts of the game.

i can do as good if not better roaming on my warrior, what is your point?

@Sanduskel: you don’t even play a thief

Cynz.9437:

Forzani.2584:

Cynz.9437:

i find this suggestions pointless unless you add suggestions to severly nerf other classes to make it fair

thieves are already considered bottom tier in pvp (yes few teams run 1 but nobody would consider to bring more, same goes for pve too btw), let’s beat the dead horse

This is ‘WvW’ Discussion. If you believe Thieves are weak in PvP then Anet should consider fixing it. It seems like a common refrain …but but we are weak in ‘fill in the blank’ . So what many are saying is yea, we are freaking overpowered in WvW roaming but it’s only fair because we are weak in other parts of the game.

i can do as good if not better roaming on my warrior, what is your point?

@Sanduskel: you don’t even play a thief

Good for you.

Since most of the posts in this thread are debating “More Counter Stealth Play” I’m not sure how you telling us you roam well on your Warrior applies.

Creating additional counter play skills to stealth would make 1/2 our build obsolete. These kind of suggestions would be akin to asking for specfic counters to illusion, shouts, signets, traps, ect. (i.e. "warriors regen is rediculous, we need a skill to stop signet passives for 10s) Its nothing but players refusing to learn a portion of the game. They refuse to better themselves because the lost in a rock paper scissors.

MrAmputatoes.6031:

Creating additional counter play skills to stealth would make 1/2 our build obsolete. These kind of suggestions would be akin to asking for specfic counters to illusion, shouts, signets, traps, ect. (i.e. "warriors regen is rediculous, we need a skill to stop signet passives for 10s) Its nothing but players refusing to learn a portion of the game. They refuse to better themselves because the lost in a rock paper scissors.

You know it’s not really about learning a portion of the game, because when someone near-perma stealths, it’s not really a game is it?

I have ignored most of these post because it really comes down to a learn to play issue.

At launch, thief was insanely OP. No one can say any different and not be telling a blatant lie.

Thief got hit hard with the nerf bat and then got hit over and over again. Some nerfs were deserved, and some were odd, and some seemed to be added with out any consideration at all.

Stealth is easy to counter, and it should be easy to predict to an experienced player. Most thief damage is timed in bursts of about every 4 seconds. Thief enters stealth, wait a few seconds and use an aoe ability or simple turn around.

You can assign a key to rotate you 180 degrees faster than a thief can hit you. It has happened to me many times, hit back stab and and my opponent spins around before back stand can land and I now have 3 seconds of evading or face tanking and my large spike damage, or pressure, was reduced to almost nothing.

The counter to stealth is to know how the stealth mechanic works and exploit all the weaknesses that goes along with it. Stealth does not equal damage immunity. Stealth does not equal damage mitigation. Stealth makes you harder to hit but does negate any of the damage comming from the skill being used to hit you. Most thieves can be forced to dodge roll right after entering stealth because if the don’t they end up eating damage they can’t afford to take and are one dodge short after stealth ends. Toughness prevents spike damage severity, and vitality prevents reaching the all important 50% health barrier where a thief will be able to do they real damage to you.

Thief is by far my favorite class to fight against, good one are rare, bad one are common, and the fight is never dull. Frustrating? Maybe, time consuming, usually, but never dull.

But I know how stealth works, I know how thief uses stealth, and I rarely let the same thief land a successful back stab twice. Positioning, trimming, and key binding the quick turn key to one of my mouses extra button is all the counter to stealth I need.

I retired my thief recently, as I refuse to adapt to another undeserved nerf and I decided I wanted to really try easy mode.

I rolled a warrior and let me tell you, you want to talk about OP! I haven’t lost to thief in a 1v1 or 1v2 since I hit 80 on my warrior. Thieves are free bags, unless they are really good, then they are escape artists. But I learned to play… A thief.

As to Sanduskel, and his 5 thief alts, they are actually clones as he is really a PU Mesmer who just doesn’t understand he isn’t playing a thief because he didn’t read the class description when he made his Mesmer. That is why he is so awesome at playing “thief”. Because he is playing Mesmer which is much easier, a lot cheesier, and a lot more useful in every way when it comes to pvp and WvW.

Stop complaining about stealth and asking for counters, learn about the ones already built into the game. Learn stealth weaknesses and you will never ask for a stealth nerf again. It is the one of the easiest class ability to counter, at least where thief is concerned.

You literally only have to count to 3 and quickly turn around.

As for getting ganked, well, use your camera, look around. A thief will not waste the initiative and utilities just to stealth to you completely unseen across large distances unless they stupid. Sanduskel might on his Mesmer since he is the only person in gw2 who can perma stealth.

Cynz.9437:

in fact i would actually love to see anet to bring other classes to thief current level

In fact that would be awesome.

Imagine the WvW. No more melee trains, no more zerg meta. Everyone would have perma-stealth builds so battles would be 80+ people randomly popping in and out of stealth with a couple of seconds of visible time (keep in mind all the blast finishers being popped in smoke fields!). Like a gigantic game of whack-a-mole.

The really good guild groups would probably do a 30-40 minute dance around each other in stealth until someone make a mistake in their skill cycling, leaving stealth for 1-2 seconds to be insta-killed. GvG won, 1 guy dead and everyone else fall back.

Dawdler.8521:

Cynz.9437:

in fact i would actually love to see anet to bring other classes to thief current level

In fact that would be awesome.

Imagine the WvW. No more melee trains, no more zerg meta. Everyone would have perma-stealth builds so battles would be 80+ people randomly popping in and out of stealth with a couple of seconds of visible time (keep in mind all the blast finishers being popped in smoke fields!). Like a gigantic game of whack-a-mole.

The really good guild groups would probably do a 30-40 minute dance around each other in stealth until someone make a mistake in their skill cycling, leaving stealth for 1-2 seconds to be insta-killed. GvG won, 1 guy dead and everyone else fall back.

Really Really Funny! You obviously dont understand how many playstyles are available with a decent skill cap to a very squishy class. And it is just sad the only reason more options aren’t given to Thief is that Anet cannot balance stealth. Why is there no comments about Mesmer stealth abuse? (I only read the first and last pages)

Cain.6507:

Thief is by far my favorite class to fight against, good one are rare, bad one are common, and the fight is never dull. Frustrating? Maybe, time consuming, usually, but never dull.
.

Sadly most people don’t take the time to understand the mechanics.

Balancing stealth means balancing classes which is IMO whats driving this game into the ground. Fun fact the Dec 10th patch notes, all classes besides warrior had over 12 pages of comments on their class forum Dev thread while warrior thread had 6 pages. So either warriors dont post, dont read, or there are many many fewer warriors playing because they are certainly not overpowered. Weird that stealth is complained about so much.

Dekk.3459:

Fun fact the Dec 10th patch notes, all classes besides warrior had over 12 pages of comments on their class forum Dev thread while warrior thread had 6 pages. So either warriors dont post, dont read, or there are many many fewer warriors playing because they are certainly not overpowered. Weird that stealth is complained about so much.

Easy to explain, stealth is annoying, it makes new or bad players to feel weak, they can not see the enemy and is frustrating.
If someone looses with a warrior checks the combat log and realizes what happened, he can follow the fightall the time, if fighting a thief the feeling is like," ok, stealth, he wins due to stealth, I would beat him in other case"…

Best,

Haltair, one of the twelve shadows

Prysin.8542

Guardian should reveal thieves with their line of warding/ring of warding. Thief could evade this skill in 3 ways;
Stability
walk around it
Pull guard away from it (scorpion Wire)…

The only thief’s stability skills are: dagger storm – elite with 90s cd and would break stealth itself as it hits enemies, and consume plasma, a stolen skill from …. a mesmer not a guardian.

Dekk.3459:

Sadly most people don’t take the time to understand the mechanics.

^ this

Doesn’t take much to try a class in spvp or to ask a friend/wvw opponent who plays that certain class to duel with your few times.

Removing leap from heartseeker would make the whole weapon set useless. The amount of stealth could be simply reduced by increasing initiative cost if heartseeker doesn’t hit a target.

MrAmputatoes.6031:

Creating additional counter play skills to stealth would make 1/2 our build obsolete. These kind of suggestions would be akin to asking for specfic counters to illusion, shouts, signets, traps, ect. (i.e. "warriors regen is rediculous, we need a skill to stop signet passives for 10s) Its nothing but players refusing to learn a portion of the game. They refuse to better themselves because the lost in a rock paper scissors.

Lol those things can be countered. I find that stealth cannot!

Sanduskel.1850:

MrAmputatoes.6031:

Creating additional counter play skills to stealth would make 1/2 our build obsolete. These kind of suggestions would be akin to asking for specfic counters to illusion, shouts, signets, traps, ect. (i.e. "warriors regen is rediculous, we need a skill to stop signet passives for 10s) Its nothing but players refusing to learn a portion of the game. They refuse to better themselves because the lost in a rock paper scissors.

Lol those things can be countered. I find that stealth cannot!

Perhaps you should play some WvW and educate yourself.

I think a lot of you thieves are missing the point of this thread. This is a thieves stealthing in wvw thread. We all know there are good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves in wvw never die period. Maybe in a setup up 1v1 where its agreed in advance the thief is not allowed to run away and has to stay in a confined space you can beat a good thief in a duel I know I have. When it comes to encounters with them in wvw though if you are winning they just stealth and are gone every single time.

This thread is about the fact that fights with good thieves have only 2 outcomes the thief winning or the thief stealthing and running away with no counter to it. A Mesmer for example has short stealths and slow run speed and one short range teleport they can be chased down and killed so I find them balanced. A thief will just pop shadow refuge or shadow step away and pop shadow refuge and gets up to 15 seconds of stealth with pretty much no counter. I mean seriously how often do you get a lucky knockback skill off perfectly that knocks the thief out of shadow refuge its like a 1 in a 100 shot. If they use shadow step first to gain distance the chance is 0 in 100.

Chuck Zitto.2367:

I think a lot of you thieves are missing the point of this thread. This is a thieves stealthing in wvw thread. We all know there are good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves in wvw never die period. Maybe in a setup up 1v1 where its agreed in advance the thief is not allowed to run away and has to stay in a confined space you can beat a good thief in a duel I know I have. When it comes to encounters with them in wvw though if you are winning they just stealth and are gone every single time.

This thread is about the fact that fights with good thieves have only 2 outcomes the thief winning or the thief stealthing and running away with no counter to it. A Mesmer for example has short stealths and slow run speed and one short range teleport they can be chased down and killed so I find them balanced. A thief will just pop shadow refuge or shadow step away and pop shadow refuge and gets up to 15 seconds of stealth with pretty much no counter. I mean seriously how often do you get a lucky knockback skill off perfectly that knocks the thief out of shadow refuge its like a 1 in a 100 shot. If they use shadow step first to gain distance the chance is 0 in 100.

When I’m fighting against thieves and they use shadow refuge, that’s the easiest thing to fight against. Magnetic shield usually has a large enough area to push them out and cause a reveal. If that’s on cd, then Big ol’ Bomb, bomb spam is just as effective. If the shadow step away and shadow refuge, then who cares? If I chase, I am asking for trouble if I’m not prepared to take a backstab. Why would I try and chase around a single thief instead of leaving and try to solo a camp or yakslap?

Chuck Zitto.2367:

with good thieves have only 2 outcomes the thief winning or the thief stealthing and running away

The problem appears when the comparison is with good players.
I have seen good elementalist avoiding being killed by several thieves, the same with guardians. I have seen good enineers killing alone several players at the same time, the same with good necros.
The issue is to try to compare anything with good players.
Stealth is not as good in combat as other perks like ccs or invulnerabilities. Stealth shines in roaming and ninjaing, the only field in which thieves shine. Thieves do not shine in duels, zergs, pvp or pve, but they do in roaming.
We know a lot about thieves, and all our members have alters to better performance in other activities (duels, group combats, zerging, pvp…)out of roaming.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Chuck Zitto.2367:

I think a lot of you thieves are missing the point of this thread. This is a thieves stealthing in wvw thread. We all know there are good thieves and bad thieves. Good thieves in wvw never die period. Maybe in a setup up 1v1 where its agreed in advance the thief is not allowed to run away and has to stay in a confined space you can beat a good thief in a duel I know I have. When it comes to encounters with them in wvw though if you are winning they just stealth and are gone every single time.

This thread is about the fact that fights with good thieves have only 2 outcomes the thief winning or the thief stealthing and running away with no counter to it. A Mesmer for example has short stealths and slow run speed and one short range teleport they can be chased down and killed so I find them balanced. A thief will just pop shadow refuge or shadow step away and pop shadow refuge and gets up to 15 seconds of stealth with pretty much no counter. I mean seriously how often do you get a lucky knockback skill off perfectly that knocks the thief out of shadow refuge its like a 1 in a 100 shot. If they use shadow step first to gain distance the chance is 0 in 100.

That might be the problem right there. Why try and knock a thief out of SR when you can just punish them instead?

A thief in stealth is not doing damage. The damage output, even by low damage builds, is still capable of negating the heals per tick of SR. Knock the thief out of SR and you may stop the heals, but smash the thief in SR and overwhelm the heals and lock the thief in a small radius where you don’t have to counter thief mobility. Knock backs are not the best way to counter SR, direct damage is.

SR is mainly used as an oh kitten button, and when a thief pops SR you have now gained control of the outcome. Knock backs only force the thief to use a teleport or blind which often allows the thief to once again gain control of the fight. Direct damage instead often overwhelms the thief and causes a down which 90% of the player base will miss as they assume the thief ran away.

SR is actually one of the best counters to fighting a stealthed thief if exploited correctly. A thief who pops SR is usually in desperate need of the healing tick, and will often “hug” the inner edge to be healed and to try to avoid direct damage. A thief desperate for health will often over commit to receiving the heals per tick and in doing so will be outplayed.

SR will also be used as a diversion to allow for escaping, but this is usually when the thief becomes outmanned as the risk usually outweighs the reward. This is very simple to predict as the thief will either cast SR and then stealth heal, aka glow blue before disappearing, and reverse direction, or stealth heal, glow blue for a second, then cast SR and reverse direction to escape. This is also easy to counter by panning the camera around and looking for the best escape route, usually right behind you as you rush to the SR field and attempt to knock the thief out of it.

I usually swap to hammer, use the leap F1 ability to attack in the opposite direction I am traveling to the SR field , and more often then not, when the above scenarios play out, land a stun on the stealthed thief about the time they come out of stealth. I win, as in spike the downed thief, about 75% of the time when I employ the strategies I explained above.

This is on my super tanky warrior who hits like a wet noodle, maybe doing 700 damage tops on my auto attack with full stacks of power with hammer. 700 damage per hit isn’t much on most classes but 700 a hit auto attack on a GC thief is close to 5% of their health points, usually a bit more.

Tanky thieves (see what it did there) will survive longer but the outcome is usually pretty one sided. I play to exploit all of a thieves dependence on stealth and by doing so I use their “op” class mechanic against them.

Learn to exploit the limitations thieves have when in stealth and you will usually win, often resulting in a down. Thieves are no harder to fight than any other class, and just like any other class, have exploitable weaknesses.

I have given you exactly what many people in this thread have been asking for, more stealth counter play, and was able to do so without asking for a nerf or a new mechanic.

I hope this is helpful. It works, not always, but it does.

Good thieves are rare, but even then they can be killed. No one class is truly unstoppable in this game, it may appear that way but that is more of a problem a lack of skill by those who make this assumption than an over abundance of skill this assumption is made upon.

Or to restate this entire post as simply as possible….

L2P. It is not an insult, but good advice, the very same I was given over a year ago by some if the very same thieves I now roll stomp daily!

If anyone but (some) thieves find stealth’s implementation in this game is terrible, maybe it isn’t a matter of “learning to play”.

And maybe the opposite is also true – those thieves don’t want stealth nerfed because they wouldn’t be able to play without it.

Still, imho, all those issues with thieves’ balancing stem from the initiative system itself. As balancing skills that are free (to a certain degree) of being spammed, as well as always selectable, isn’t easy at all. Especially when we aren’t considered a limited mode like PvP, that plays with its own rules. But i’m OT about that, anyway.

Eloquence.5207:

I wish this game has crosshair aiming instead of tab-targeting.

Emm, it actually is the same as crosshair targeting just w/o icon on your screen when it comes to melee.

Eloquence.5207:

I wish this game has crosshair aiming instead of tab-targeting.

Every cleaving, and most projectile skills can be used without a target. I use this on my ele all the time to hit stuff which cannot be hit when targetted, to hit stuff which is out of range, or to avoid the kittenty movement-tracking (hey, let’s shoot the moon because the target is jumping like an Asura! …) on staff, and to hit what I’m facing when I’m on D/D. Ofcourse there are skills which require either a ground target (most of the fields would be stupid if I couldn’t place them freely) or a visual target (e.g. flame burst, lightning surge and comet), but the latter are rare and wouldn’t either make much sense if they’d be ground-targetted or PbAoE, or they’d become too powerful.

Manuhell.2759:

If anyone but (some) thieves find stealth’s implementation in this game is terrible, maybe it isn’t a matter of “learning to play”.

And maybe the opposite is also true – those thieves don’t want stealth nerfed because they wouldn’t be able to play without it.

Still, imho, all those issues with thieves’ balancing stem from the initiative system itself. As balancing skills that are free (to a certain degree) of being spammed, as well as always selectable, isn’t easy at all. Especially when we aren’t considered a limited mode like PvP, that plays with its own rules. But i’m OT about that, anyway.

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Many of us thieves think you’re a silly troll who only pretends to play a thief. As a thief, I can tell you this much. Let me just say this last thing to you: people are starting to pay increasingly less attention to you, you might as well stop posting.

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

I am officer in the guild who owns more thieves of the world and I can assure you that not even one thinks that the mechanic is broken.
It seems to me that you must be trolling.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Haltair.3062:

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

I am officer in the guild who owns more thieves of the world and I can assure you that not even one thinks that the mechanic is broken.
It seems to me that you must be trolling.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

I think you assume that your guild is something prestigious… It’s not, sorry :x

And yes, Burnfall is a troll, if you haven’t been to the thief forums in the past 6 months.

Are people still complaining about stealth in WvW?! Did you lose to a 1v1 specced Thief while you were running to your zerg with your 111 build? What a shock.

I can agree that D/P has too much reward and too little risk. It’s nearly impossible to kill one if he decides to disengage. This is not a stealth problem – it’s a D/P problem. If anyone say that D/D doesn’t have decent risk/reward they should really give it a try.

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Many of us thieves think you’re a silly troll who only pretends to play a thief. As a thief, I can tell you this much. Let me just say this last thing to you: people are starting to pay increasingly less attention to you, you might as well stop posting.

Okaishi that was totally rude, unjust and evil of you to say, I’m serious!! Sanduskel is not a machine, Sanduskel deserves to be treated as a human being.

Are you not human?

Burnfall.9573:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Many of us thieves think you’re a silly troll who only pretends to play a thief. As a thief, I can tell you this much. Let me just say this last thing to you: people are starting to pay increasingly less attention to you, you might as well stop posting.

Okaishi that was totally rude, unjust and evil of you to say, I’m serious!! Sanduskel is not a machine, Sanduskel deserves to be treated as a human being.

Are you not human?

He didn’t say nothing about a ‘machine’, that is your idea …

Unlike Sanduskel I can’t speak for other thieves, but Okaishi’s words do seem to resonate with my thoughts, whether you like it or not.

Stealth in this game is a joke. There are almost no counters for stealth and the ones that exist are pretty meh.

I don’t know about other classes, but ranger’s sic’em should set the revealed debuff on 10 seconds and not 4…

Hit—>hide—>hit again—>hide again—>run away if target is not dead must be the most stupid mechanic I’ve seen in any MMO.

Ranger’s Sic’Em at 10 seconds would be incredibly broken

6 or maybe 8 seconds would be nice (6 seconds would be my preference) but 10 seconds would be pretty much death for most Thieves.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Stealth in this game is a joke. There are almost no counters for stealth and the ones that exist are pretty meh.

I don’t know about other classes, but ranger’s sic’em should set the revealed debuff on 10 seconds and not 4…

Hit—>hide—>hit again—>hide again—>run away if target is not dead must be the most stupid mechanic I’ve seen in any MMO.

As said earlier; D/P is the problem with stealth, not stealth itself. They could add diminishing returns, but they would have to apply that to other parts of the game too then.

Terravos.4059:

Ranger’s Sic’Em at 10 seconds would be incredibly broken

6 or maybe 8 seconds would be nice (6 seconds would be my preference) but 10 seconds would be pretty much death for most Thieves.

Hmm yeah maybe. I would probably start with a 6 seconds too see how that turns out. The current 4 is not enough hardly worth swaping the skill when facing a thief/mesmer.

Six seconds is already a long reveal for a thief. But you might as well make it 10, or even 20 seconds at that point. Because the thief’s reaction will be the same in every case, shadowstep away and run as fast as possible. Hard counters like that will just cause thieves to immediately flee because stealth is their core mechanic for damage and survivability and they are useless without it. Add other hard counters to stealth and the same thing will happen, and at some point there won’t be a reason to play d/d or d/p anymore.

Instead of suggesting things that will cripple the class, looking for ways to rework d/d and d/p to be less reliable on stealth (and have less access to it) would be better. But I guess thinking any of you would do that is naïve, because I’m fairly sure most of the players who came to the forums to complain don’t play thieves themselves and haven’t made much effort to understand the class’ mechanics.

frans.8092:

Burnfall.9573:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Many of us thieves think you’re a silly troll who only pretends to play a thief. As a thief, I can tell you this much. Let me just say this last thing to you: people are starting to pay increasingly less attention to you, you might as well stop posting.

Okaishi that was totally rude, unjust and evil of you to say, I’m serious!! Sanduskel is not a machine, Sanduskel deserves to be treated as a human being.

Are you not human?

He didn’t say nothing about a ‘machine’, that is your idea …

Unlike Sanduskel I can’t speak for other thieves, but Okaishi’s words do seem to resonate with my thoughts, whether you like it or not.

Once again,

Being a human being is to Feel,

Being a machine is to not be Human

Sanduskel is a human being, whether you accept it or not

Burnfall.9573:

frans.8092:

Burnfall.9573:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Many of us thieves think you’re a silly troll who only pretends to play a thief. As a thief, I can tell you this much. Let me just say this last thing to you: people are starting to pay increasingly less attention to you, you might as well stop posting.

Okaishi that was totally rude, unjust and evil of you to say, I’m serious!! Sanduskel is not a machine, Sanduskel deserves to be treated as a human being.

Are you not human?

He didn’t say nothing about a ‘machine’, that is your idea …

Unlike Sanduskel I can’t speak for other thieves, but Okaishi’s words do seem to resonate with my thoughts, whether you like it or not.

Once again,

Being a human being is to Feel,

Being a machine is to not be Human

Sanduskel is a human being, whether you accept it or not

The point is, we’re kind of sick of the two of you claiming to be professionals on the subject of everything thief, and call for more nerfs. If you truely play thief, then this is an intervention, Burnfall. Please, try to contribute meaningful posts to the conversation, any involving thief, and perhaps people might start taking you seriously. For now you’ve ruined anyone believing a word you say without assuming that you’re trolling. Even Daecollo is a normal human being now, and he was formerly in the position you and Sanduskel are.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Burnfall.9573:

frans.8092:

Burnfall.9573:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

many of us thieves think stealth is ridiculously broken in this game. the vocal few who want to preserve the status quo are who you mostly see on the forums.

Many of us thieves think you’re a silly troll who only pretends to play a thief. As a thief, I can tell you this much. Let me just say this last thing to you: people are starting to pay increasingly less attention to you, you might as well stop posting.

Okaishi that was totally rude, unjust and evil of you to say, I’m serious!! Sanduskel is not a machine, Sanduskel deserves to be treated as a human being.

Are you not human?

He didn’t say nothing about a ‘machine’, that is your idea …

Unlike Sanduskel I can’t speak for other thieves, but Okaishi’s words do seem to resonate with my thoughts, whether you like it or not.

Once again,

Being a human being is to Feel,

Being a machine is to not be Human

Sanduskel is a human being, whether you accept it or not

The point is, we’re kind of sick of the two of you claiming to be professionals on the subject of everything thief, and call for more nerfs. If you truely play thief, then this is an intervention, Burnfall. Please, try to contribute meaningful posts to the conversation, any involving thief, and perhaps people might start taking you seriously. For now you’ve ruined anyone believing a word you say without assuming that you’re trolling. Even Daecollo is a normal human being now, and he was formerly in the position you and Sanduskel are.

I am a ranger, I can never kill a thief, where is my claim of being a “Professional”?

Only Professional i am is to continually die by them.

By the way, i do have something constructive and meaningful to contribute; i defend the defenseless, oppress and those who are treated unjustly.

I support those who treat others as a human being.

I appose those who robs the Freedom and Liberty of those who refuse to be treated as a machine.

for once….

Leave the innocent to his thoughts

Leave the innocent to his reasons

Leave the innocent to his ways

Leave the innocent to his beliefs

Leave the innocent to himself

In return,

all Sanduskel ever asked for,

is to be treated a Human Being

Warhawk.7095:

I’ll just drop this off here:

A thief wouldn’t have to stealth so much if they had literally any other abilities to survive a fight.

Instead of another thread about just crying calling for nerfs, I propose that for every ability you suggest they REMOVE from the thief, that you suggest the specific CREATION of another viable skill to make up for it.

I’m a thief and I’d love to fight face to face… …if the game gave me any of the tools needed to win a fight that way.

well then i got a solution for y ou STOP PLAYING 100% Glass cannon

BAM you magically gain survivability and “fight people face to face” thief has tons of means to survive fights they all just choose the cheap exploitive method

Rezzet.3614:

Warhawk.7095:

I’ll just drop this off here:

A thief wouldn’t have to stealth so much if they had literally any other abilities to survive a fight.

Instead of another thread about just crying calling for nerfs, I propose that for every ability you suggest they REMOVE from the thief, that you suggest the specific CREATION of another viable skill to make up for it.

I’m a thief and I’d love to fight face to face… …if the game gave me any of the tools needed to win a fight that way.

well then i got a solution for y ou STOP PLAYING 100% Glass cannon

BAM you magically gain survivability and “fight people face to face” thief has tons of means to survive fights they all just choose the cheap exploitive method

except thieves don’t have any other viable builds but semi glass cannon… you can stack toughness/vit and take defensive trees and still get dropped really fast w/o stealth and dodges…

i experiemnted with that and did go full tank on thief, it doesn’t work simply because of low HP pool, no invul, no stability, no blocks, no ageis, kittenty heal rate etc.

oh and news flash, pretty much every thief you will face in wvw is already running SA (toughness tree) so it is as tanky as we can get really…

thieves do NOT have survivability but stealth and dodges… give more means of survival and thieves will stop relying on stealth so much

P.S. can you please elaborate what that “cheap exploitive method” are you talking about? i am cruious

Regen build Cynz, regen build. It works wonders for my thief in WvW. Sure he’s still dependent on stealth, but I use that to escape usually or hide in keeps/towers without touching people.

Cynz.9437:

Rezzet.3614:

Warhawk.7095:

I’ll just drop this off here:

A thief wouldn’t have to stealth so much if they had literally any other abilities to survive a fight.

Instead of another thread about just crying calling for nerfs, I propose that for every ability you suggest they REMOVE from the thief, that you suggest the specific CREATION of another viable skill to make up for it.

I’m a thief and I’d love to fight face to face… …if the game gave me any of the tools needed to win a fight that way.

well then i got a solution for y ou STOP PLAYING 100% Glass cannon

BAM you magically gain survivability and “fight people face to face” thief has tons of means to survive fights they all just choose the cheap exploitive method

except thieves don’t have any other viable builds but semi glass cannon… you can stack toughness/vit and take defensive trees and still get dropped really fast w/o stealth and dodges…

i experiemnted with that and did go full tank on thief, it doesn’t work simply because of low HP pool, no invul, no stability, no blocks, no ageis, kittenty heal rate etc.

oh and news flash, pretty much every thief you will face in wvw is already running SA (toughness tree) so it is as tanky as we can get really…

thieves do NOT have survivability but stealth and dodges… give more means of survival and thieves will stop relying on stealth so much

P.S. can you please elaborate what that “cheap exploitive method” are you talking about? i am cruious

That’s not accurate. Thieves can stealth for regen, evade and higher health. The issue is that the cheesy specs that are one hit, perma stealth wonders attract the poor players. Every other class faces the same types of choices. Thieves are definitely not disadvantaged in defensive abilities other than stealth. I know beause I have some tanky thieves.

Burnfall.9573:

…

Your posts are spiteful, usually filled with venom and always unreasonable. There is no way to communicate with you in a meaningful way – and that is your doing alone. In the long term the only way to handle you is simply by not reading anything you post at all. But that is what you choose.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Regen build Cynz, regen build. It works wonders for my thief in WvW. Sure he’s still dependent on stealth, but I use that to escape usually or hide in keeps/towers without touching people.

you still have to rely on stealth…. there is no way around it or dodge spec which people also find obnoxious hence the recent nerfs

@Sanduskel: for future reference, i refuse to answer to your posts as the rest of thief community for already many times stated reasons

Okaishi.8320:

Hard counters like that will just cause thieves to immediately flee because stealth is their core mechanic for damage and survivability and they are useless without it.

If you can flee from an opponent without your “survivability mechanic”….doesn t that alone proves you have another survivability mechanic?

Anet said once, that in www you can t really kill a thief, but if you make it run away its a victory….

stealth would be good only if paired with 50% reduced mobility…
Mobility+ stealth = you can t kill a thief.

It just means you won t never pay for your mistakes…any half decent thief can do that.

I was talking about the kind of survivability that keeps you alive in a fight. The ability to run away is convenient, but I rather be able to have a good shot at defeating my opponent without them having an instant counter that is likely to screw me over immediately.

Good luck landing a backstab with 50% mobility in stealth. Please make more suggestions that would make the thief class complete garbage, I haven’t seen enough of them.