Guild Wars 2

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

It’s not a good idea coz i havn’t met one person who actually likes scouting, or defending a tower all day long, the only reason that people do do it that i know is becuase no one else will, they constantly complain about having to do it because they feel obligated and it’s not fun and they are absolutely right, those of us that don’t scout appreciate those guys and we let the mvent thier frustrations, we love our scouts who move around the map checking on crossedswords to see if it was tagged or being sieged.

Most of the people i know in WvW are seriously considering just giving up because Anet clearly don’t give a rats butt about opions or informed suggestions from people outside the small out of touch group they seem to us as a focus group, the people who think (or don’t as the case may be) of these WvW changes quite frankly need to stop being so bloody lazy and do something with WvW other than a lazy change any moron could suggest.

You’re supposed to be intelliegent and well educated human beings, act like it.

Wow, this was from a month ago? It’s incredibly prescient. I swore I was reading something from today or yesterday, because that is exactly how everything turned out.

Hvaran.6327:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

An Important Side Note!

I had a Hugh Norfolk in my Guild for the “Adopt-A-Dev” program. It was a great experience and while I did suggest ideas to him, I can promise you not once did I suggest something as trivial as removing white swords to him because it punishes me as a commander and the player-base as a whole whether they are roamers, havoc groups, or zerglings.

Two of My Main Suggestions to My Adopted Dev, Hugh Norfolk

One of my suggestions was to increase the HP of siege and structures when you have the outnumbered/outmanned buff on any map by 33% so that when an enemy is attacking you with a 60 man blob and you have only 10 people on (because of a lack of population during YOUR servers low-coverage time-zone), you will probably still lose things, but you will lose them slower. Since the rate of decay during off-times would be reduced through this buff, under-populated coverage times would lose less PPT overall than they normally would and although it may not completely solve the current discrepancy of being outnumbered/outmanned it would certainly help with reducing PPT lost during these time zones. The importance of buffing siege/structures is that it doesn’t create imbalance in the game because it just adds more health to siege/structures which are neutral.

To supplement the first idea I had, I suggested that Anet provide more incentives to players who choose to play when outnumbered/outmanned because then they will stay on the maps which would also help raise PPT overall during low-population time-zones. As far as incentives, I figured that a 33% buff to WXP, XP, Karma (which already exists), Gold Find, and Magic Find, would entice players to stay on a map because the game is recognizing their loyalty to play during a time-zone that is less attractive and requires more hard work. I just wanted to throw this in at the end because I noticed a lot of negativity regarding the “Adopt-A-Dev” program and I though it was fantastic. As far as the ideas go, I don’t know if Hugh Norfolk conveyed any of what I proposed to the rest of the Anet team but I do know that we talked about it and he was kind enough to let me express my thoughts about WvW

mate, u let him play hambow in “guild raids” what you know about wvw?))

And he still thinks that taking SM on headstart aftre reset is actually good for PPT? Or you thinking like that aswell?

It’s great that u have such dev in your guild, but from videos of Hugh i understood that u play pugblobs and ok with hamboy.

Much love.

He ran that build so he could provide commentary to anyone who watched the Official Guild Wars 2 stream… I never gave him a WvW build and trust me, if I did it wouldn’t be a longbow/hammer PvP warrior build. When he joined my guild [CERN], I asked him what he was going to run and he said his PvP build so he could more easily record the fights. He said he didn’t play WvW much and wanted to play on a comfortable build even though it wasn’t the most useful and I told him no problem (because the “Adopt-A-Dev” rules stated that we had to let them do as they pleased and not be overbearing, although they used different phrasing than I did, that was the expectation from Anet).

So yes, he ran his PvP build (remember he’s on the PvP team, or at least was), but don’t assume that I liked it, because I didn’t and you’re making assumptions. In the future, know your facts first.

As for reset on Eternal Battlegrounds, yes I lead the map, and in EBG Tier 1 that map is always 1-2 30+ man groups. Blobbing is the meta on that map (Eternal). Borderlands tend to have more split groups because the distance between structures is longer and it is less beneficial to run in one massive blob. Are you really that oblivious?

Hugh even went over the build at the beginning of the stream before he played every time and explained why he was running it… I already can tell you didn’t do any research and don’t know what you’re talking about.

LetoII.3782:

The more informed and mobile a blob is, the more effective.

If WvW is ever going to be less blobby, the blob needs to be less effective.

Or maybe just have more incentives to run at 30 or less players? Such as passive buffs like +gold find 15%, +magic find 15%, + wxp 15%, +exp 15%, +karma 15%, etc. The PPT’ers would split up just for the buff and people who play for fights would do it because they hate blobbing and for them it would just be bonus to their preferred play style.

You could accomplish this by having the first 30 people who join a commander’s squad get the buff and anyone after 30, not recipe the buff. This would incentivize player 31.. (and beyond) to follow commander #2, or commander #3 so they can get the buffs everyone else is getting.

You don’t want to remove strategy from the game to “make the blob less effective” as you say @ Letoll you want to incentivize players to not want to blob in the first place by giving them better alternatives

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Wow, this was from a month ago? It’s incredibly prescient. I swore I was reading something from today or yesterday, because that is exactly how everything turned out.

Thank you, yeah I don’t know why Anet didn’t use the “Adopt-A-Dev” program to consult players like myself so that they could have some foresight on how things affect their game-mode since they lack their own personnel to do so compared to the other two game modes.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

He ran that build so he could provide commentary to anyone who watched the Official Gild Wars 2 stream… I never gave him a WvW build. He ran his PvP build (remember he’s on the PvP team, or at least was). Know your facts first. On reset in EBG yes I lead the map and in EBG Tier 1 that map is always 1-2 30+ man groups.. Blobbing is the meta on that map (Eternal). Are you really that oblivious?

me oblivious? I see a guy with you that runs warrior on spvp build with berserker stance and longbow and he is from your guild, is it me who is oblivious?

EBG is blobbing map on EU aswell and? Most of noobs going eb as first choice on EU aswell and?

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Hugh even went over the build at the beginning of the stream before he played every time and explained why he was running it… I already can tell you didn’t do any research and don’t know what you’re talking about.

i missed that part i think, but it’s some of your guys who had to explain to him wha’ts the meta in wvw currently for warrior.

But what done is done, take sm first, run whatever build u like, blob had – succes! =)

Hvaran.6327:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

He ran that build so he could provide commentary to anyone who watched the Official Gild Wars 2 stream… I never gave him a WvW build. He ran his PvP build (remember he’s on the PvP team, or at least was). Know your facts first. On reset in EBG yes I lead the map and in EBG Tier 1 that map is always 1-2 30+ man groups.. Blobbing is the meta on that map (Eternal). Are you really that oblivious?

me oblivious? I see a guy with you that runs warrior on spvp build with berserker stance and longbow and he is from your guild, is it me who is oblivious?

EBG is blobbing map on EU aswell and? Most of noobs going eb as first choice on EU aswell and?

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Hugh even went over the build at the beginning of the stream before he played every time and explained why he was running it… I already can tell you didn’t do any research and don’t know what you’re talking about.

i missed that part i think, but it’s some of your guys who had to explain to him wha’ts the meta in wvw currently for warrior.

But what done is done, take sm first, run whatever build u like, blob had – succes! =)

Did you read nothing that was wrote? The Dev who joined our guild (Hugh Norfolk) decided to run his PvP build. He joined as part of the “Adopt-A-Dev” program. He was only in our guild for three (3) weeks. We ([CERN]) have our own website with WvW builds, but Hugh came on his own terms and wanted to run his PvP build regardless of how useless it was in WvW. I had no say in the matter, and NO ONE explained to him anything about the meta because he said he wanted to run what he was running and I found out his build when I checked out the stream and did a facepalm! So now I really know you are oblivious because I already told you this and you didn’t even read it…

He told me he was going to run it because he wanted to stay alive in zerg battles so he could give people watching the Official Guild Wars 2 stream live commentary without dying. I never said he was running a good Warrior build (for WvW), because if there’s one thing I do agree with you on, it’s that he had a terrible build on for WvW. But that’s not the point, he chose to run what he wanted to run and part of the program was not to be overbearing and tell him what to do but rather let him enjoy the experience with us in WvW. Either way, our guild had a blast with him and no one cared that he didn’t run the meta…Also, I know what the meta is for Warriors, I’ve been commanding for two years and I am well versed in melee classes. Please get your facts straight instead of talking out of your kitten!

Now, lets stick to the subject and my original topic.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Wow, this was from a month ago? It’s incredibly prescient. I swore I was reading something from today or yesterday, because that is exactly how everything turned out.

Thank you, yeah I don’t know why Anet didn’t use the “Adopt-A-Dev” program to consult players like myself so that they could have some foresight on how things affect their game-mode since they lack their own personnel to do so compared to the other two game modes.

I don’t know either, we had an adopt-a-dev in our guild during the tourney, Melnetta, and I can sure as hell tell you that “remove white swords” was not a single one of our suggestions. It never even occurred to us. We had other suggestions, and she did come to us at the end of the tourney and tell us she had a sit-down luncheon with the other adopt-a-devs to discuss their experiences and suggestions. So either she lacked seniority, just got ignored, or was outvoted by people with ideas like PPK and “remove white swords.” She was really nice, and I understand if she couldn’t make any of our suggestions happen, but it still sucks that just these 2 changes that really nobody wanted (except maybe PPK, that doesn’t seem like the worst idea) actually ended up in the game.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Wow, this was from a month ago? It’s incredibly prescient. I swore I was reading something from today or yesterday, because that is exactly how everything turned out.

Thank you, yeah I don’t know why Anet didn’t use the “Adopt-A-Dev” program to consult players like myself so that they could have some foresight on how things affect their game-mode since they lack their own personnel to do so compared to the other two game modes.

I don’t know either, we had an adopt-a-dev in our guild during the tourney, Melnetta, and I can sure as hell tell you that “remove white swords” was not a single one of our suggestions. It never even occurred to us. We had other suggestions, and she did come to us at the end of the tourney and tell us she had a sit-down luncheon with the other adopt-a-devs to discuss their experiences and suggestions. So either she lacked seniority, just got ignored, or was outvoted by people with ideas like PPK and “remove white swords.” She was really nice, and I understand if she couldn’t make any of our suggestions happen, but it still sucks that just these 2 changes that really nobody wanted (except maybe PPK, that doesn’t seem like the worst idea) actually ended up in the game.

It is too bad that the dev’s didn’t allow those of us who participated in the “Adopt-A-Dev” program to provide further input for them on WvW based ideas. I like the PPK change because we should be rewarded for killing the enemy. Removing white swords on the other hand, that’s just a bad idea that wasn’t thought through very well at all.

Our guild had a great time with our dev Hugh but I ‘m pretty sure I recall him saying that he doesn’t have much say in WvW matters either when it comes to the final decision. Which is unfortunate because he was an awesome guy and he was very receptive to our guilds thoughts on the game-mode and how it needed some attention.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Did you read nothing that was wrote? The Dev who joined our guild (Hugh Norfolk) decided to run his PvP build. He joined as part of the “Adopt-A-Dev” program. He was only in our guild for three (3) weeks. We ([CERN]) have our own website with WvW builds, but Hugh came on his own terms and wanted to run his PvP build regardless of how useless it was in WvW. I had no say in the matter, and NO ONE explained to him anything about the meta because he said he wanted to run what he was running and I found out his build when I checked out the stream and did a facepalm! So now I really know you are oblivious because I already told you this and you didn’t even read it…

He told me he was going to run it because he wanted to stay alive in zerg battles so he could give people watching the Official Guild Wars 2 stream live commentary without dying. I never said he was running a good Warrior build, cause if there’s one thing I do agree with you on, it’s that he had a terrible build on for WvW. But that’s not the point, he chose to run what he wanted to run and part of the program was not to be overbearing and tell him what to do but rather let him enjoy the experience with us in WvW. Either way, our guild had a blast with him and no one cared that he didn’t run the meta…Also, I know what the meta is for Warriors, I’ve been commanding for two years and I am well versed in melee classes. Please get your facts straight instead of talking out of your kitten!

Now, lets stick to the subject and my original topic.

My facts are pretty straight man.

But u had a a dev in your guild that you could conversate with, attach a mentor to him etc, but u decide to “Push the WvW expirience” here isntead of there.

And you told what?)) Do i need to quote? You told “he was running what he wanted to stay alive” and? MAybe it’s ok if your guildie will run bearbow in your raid, then i think it was best way to show devs ebg blob fights =)))

It’s good that u facepalmed at his build after, at least i know that it wasn’t you who gave him that kitten =)
And wvw is not that enjoyable when u run out of meta or at least out of understanding how large/small scale fights work, i know that for sure, i was playing it casually some time aswell and it was just random mess, while i ejnoyed it much more when start to understand how things work in there.

No taking in account all the PPTwise wrong statements that he said on a stream, cause i don’t who told him that things.

As i said before though what past that past.

Hvaran.6327:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Did you read nothing that was wrote? The Dev who joined our guild (Hugh Norfolk) decided to run his PvP build. He joined as part of the “Adopt-A-Dev” program. He was only in our guild for three (3) weeks. We ([CERN]) have our own website with WvW builds, but Hugh came on his own terms and wanted to run his PvP build regardless of how useless it was in WvW. I had no say in the matter, and NO ONE explained to him anything about the meta because he said he wanted to run what he was running and I found out his build when I checked out the stream and did a facepalm! So now I really know you are oblivious because I already told you this and you didn’t even read it…

He told me he was going to run it because he wanted to stay alive in zerg battles so he could give people watching the Official Guild Wars 2 stream live commentary without dying. I never said he was running a good Warrior build, cause if there’s one thing I do agree with you on, it’s that he had a terrible build on for WvW. But that’s not the point, he chose to run what he wanted to run and part of the program was not to be overbearing and tell him what to do but rather let him enjoy the experience with us in WvW. Either way, our guild had a blast with him and no one cared that he didn’t run the meta…Also, I know what the meta is for Warriors, I’ve been commanding for two years and I am well versed in melee classes. Please get your facts straight instead of talking out of your kitten!

Now, lets stick to the subject and my original topic.

My facts are pretty straight man.

But u had a a dev in your guild that you could conversate with, attach a mentor to him etc, but u decide to “Push the WvW expirience” here isntead of there.

And you told what?)) Do i need to quote? You told “he was running what he wanted to stay alive” and? MAybe it’s ok if your guildie will run bearbow in your raid, then i think it was best way to show devs ebg blob fights =)))

It’s good that u facepalmed at his build after, at least i know that it wasn’t you who gave him that kitten =)
And wvw is not that enjoyable when u run out of meta or at least out of understanding how large/small scale fights work, i know that for sure, i was playing it casually some time aswell and it was just random mess, while i ejnoyed it much more when start to understand how things work in there.

No taking in account all the PPTwise wrong statements that he said on a stream, cause i don’t who told him that things.

As i said before though what past that past.

He only logged in for reset nights.. Our guild had him actively play with us 3 times in 3 weeks. What the kitten are you smoking about “mentoring” him… again this is why I say you don’t have your facts straight. He literally only played with us 3 times in 3 weeks! He didn’t want to be mentored and even if he did, where was the time to do that? Oh wait there wasn’t! (Because you don’t mentor someone on reset night!)

His statements on the GW2 Twitch were his own man… He listened in on Mumble VOIP software while I lead but not really because he had it down super low so he could commentate the fights without being distracted by communication going on in the channel.

It doesn’t matter what he ran, if you were me and you were a well-known commander and a dev asked you if you wanted to be streamed on Twitch would you say no? I didn’t want to pass that opportunity up and I am grateful for it.

But seriously, you continue to show how little you really know about MY guilds “Adopt-A-Dev” experience, how our dev chose to go about things, and how active he was.

So please, lets stick to the original topic, your posts are distracting from my actual message about White Swords and their negative impact.

Majority of forum users predicted these outcomes and thats why anet still wanted to give it a try in the form of a “test” (stubborn as usual)

On another note, what happend with the promising “Communicating with you” Thread? Cause its all quiet now regarding this exciting test.

Offair.2563:

Majority of forum users predicted these outcomes and thats why anet still wanted to give it a try in the form of a “test” (stubborn as usual)

On another note, what happend with the promising “Communicating with you” Thread? Cause its all quiet now regarding this exciting test.

Yeah but I didn’t see that many a month ago when I made my original posts giving my foreshadow of what was to come…

I agree where is the “Communicating With You” thread at it seems our community (WvW) has been hard at work pumping out the forum topics but there’s no responses coming in. It could be the holidays though so if that’s the case I’m all for them having a nice Christmas and New Years even though I despise the latest WvW changes.

They hope that if they dont show any activety on WvW section and not respond to us the promlem(s) will go away by them self.

Well yes they do whit ppl. If there is no ppl besides 11111 k-train ones there won’t be any one saying anything.

Not only did Choo accurately predict the impact of removing white swords on structures, but word on the street is that he’s atleast an 8.6/10 IRL and can bench 3 plates as well.

- Enthust

aesthetix.4832:

Not only did Choo accurately predict the impact of removing white swords on structures, but word on the street is that he’s atleast an 8.6/10 IRL and can bench 3 plates as well.

- Enthust

Love you <3

Hey who voted on the 8.6/10 lol!

MomentofWeakness.1246:

aesthetix.4832:

Not only did Choo accurately predict the impact of removing white swords on structures, but word on the street is that he’s atleast an 8.6/10 IRL and can bench 3 plates as well.

- Enthust

Love you <3

Hey who voted on the 8.6/10 lol!

<3

That’s just what I heard through the grapevine.. but 8.6/10 according to e-standards is actually very respectable.. I would just run with it !

Hello, I am Oscuro of Kaineng! It is awesome to see a high tier player comment on this change. It is a very different perspective from what we down in Kaineng have. I would like to touch on a few things you said, as I have played on tier 1 servers. First, you said it requires players to sentry. This is not true. This is a common misconception I have heard from a lot of people. This update makes the southern towers expendable, to be completely honest. You need to look at the south as your “white swords”. Having a 5 man havoc group roaning in the southern portion and occasionally checking on keeps will allow that havoc group to
A) Scout the southern portion
B) not be bored since ha overs usually have fun with that stuff
You can analyze patterns of southern map activity and usually tell if it is a large zerg or havoc, based on the amount of siege and capture rate.

Secondly, I feel this patch benefits roamer a and havoc groups. Most havoc groups should be offensive based if they are doing it right. Therefore, they will have a much higher success rate at capturing objectives with less resistance. This will benefit your server because you will have more points. Have a will even be able to cap keeps if they are skilled enough, and I’m sure a dedicated commander like yourself wouldn’t mind having a 1 keep buffer this brings me to a related point, you said it punishes commanders who are dedicated to looking at the MM. If you are doing this, I suggest you stop. Trusting your spotters is the most efficient way of commanding. When I would command in T1, I knew who the commanders that map watched were because everything was a bit slower paced. Have scouts (roamers, they are on every map and don’t mind it) check out major objectives every so often. I don’t mean stop using the map, but watching diligently for white swords is not something you should be doing unless you are leading a guild group, but even than that is iffy.

Lastly, it’s time you stopped zerging. This is the most beneficial part of this patch. You should have 2 or 3 tags per map to capture towers and than regroup for larger objectives (I.e. Keeps) this is the most effective way to play, despite how much you all love your zergs.
Additionally, I would like to add my opinion of white swords. I feel that white swords should appear, unless you are outmanned (if you are outmanned, the objectives you attack will not have white swords). This would benefit smaller servers who are fighting an uneven matchup. Larger servers will have to maintain coverage in whatever way possible since the will (most likely) outnumber their enemy in most maps. These are just my opinions on how it could and should be implemented.
Best Wishes,
Oscuro of Kaineng

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Introduction:

I have been commanding for almost two years and I can tell you that when the original change to white swords was made where they gave them a delayed response on the mini-map I was already frustrated. Now that we are hearing about white swords being removed I am questioning the so-called “innovative WvW balance ideas” that are being proposed. I don’t want to come across as a “forum-basher” so I am sure that with this introduction I have made clear my feelings on the issue. Let me expand on why removing white swords is bad from a veteran commanders perspective. I am going to express the issues that I see arising as IF white swords being removed was actually implemented into WvW. Keep in mind that the issues I am presenting will compound and scale with lower tiers affecting them in worse ways than higher tiers (I am on Tier 1).

The Problems With Removing White Swords:

1. It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them (something that separates good commanders from mediocre ones).

From a commanders perspective, removing the white swords essentially doesn’t allow me to be rewarded for diligently scanning the mini-map and making decisions based upon what the map tells me. Being an efficient/refined commander takes a very long time and there is a lot of things to manage (the zerg, upgrades, supply, the mini-map, other maps, timers, open-field fights, etc., just to name a few). If I don’t have a way to respond to structures being attacked how am I supposed to be effective on defense?

2. It forces players to sentry which is BAD because it doesn’t allow those players to enjoy the actual WvW experience.

If I can’t as a commander rely on the mini-map to help me with the decision making process then I have to ask people to sit in towers or run mindlessly back-and-forth between different structures to make sure they aren’t being hit. By having them scout/sentry these players aren’t able to enjoy the best parts of WvW which are running with the server community, socializing, being a part of a team, and fighting the enemy on a massive scale. Not to mention, being a sentry at a tower/keep/camp (having your character sit in one tower and report when the enemy comes and drops siege on a gate or wall or goes for a camp, etc.) is BORING and its not actually playing the game as intended. We already have sentries for maps at times because server imbalance during different coverage zones forces us to have people watch fully-upgraded keeps with way points which is already unfortunate (although that’s an issue for another discussion).

I didn’t think of how it affected a commander using the minimap, but #2 is bang on what I’ve been saying all along. Nobody likes sentry duty. I understand it’s necessary for a few key locations but white swords means more locations need sentries, that’s more people who are wasting time ticking siege and missing out on fights.

I’m worried that for big guilds like [CERN] it’ll literally mean a sentry duty watch list, a roster, as commanders fail to get volunteers to waste their time ticking siege and missing fights, so guilds will have to FORCE players to do it or kick them from guild.

I’m convinced the wvw devs at anet don’t know what they’re doing.

Hvaran.6327:

My facts are pretty straight man.

But u had a a dev in your guild that you could conversate with, attach a mentor to him etc, but u decide to “Push the WvW expirience” here isntead of there.

I don’t think you understand how the adopt a dev program worked. In this particular case, the dev WANTED to run his own build. Why? He is the lead of PvP. He was comfortable with the build and had no interest in WvW after the 3 week period.

There is no point is trying to change the opinion of someone who was just visiting.

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

Except that this attitude still exists. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Request-to-Commanders-Guild-Raids/4637798

These guys used to play on the server I’m on. When I got tired of defending and wanted to go for a run I would try to join them. They would deliberately WP out to lose any pug who dared to follow them.

If I’m not good enough to run with them, I’m not going to scout for them and I stopped reporting anything to them. They eventually changed servers.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

Except that this attitude still exists. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Request-to-Commanders-Guild-Raids/4637798

These guys used to play on the server I’m on. When I got tired of defending and wanted to go for a run I would try to join them. They would deliberately WP out to lose any pug who dared to follow them.

If I’m not good enough to run with them, I’m not going to scout for them and I stopped reporting anything to them. They eventually changed servers.

If they’re running a tagless guild raid and you’re not in their guild or hanging in their comms channel then chances are no, you’re not invited. Yes, it’s rejection but it’s most likely not personal. If anything blame Anet for allowing their silly PvE rally system in WvWvW and making it less sociable. Some people want to hang with their friends and have more precision in battle, you could be the rally bait that gets them wiped for lame reasons and ruin their fun and it shouldn’t be hard to respect that. Join or start a public raid or find a guild.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

When this is implemented expect constant Golem rushes by overpopulated servers..
Bye bye trying to keep up with servers that have 3 times the numbers.

Those could be a common occurrence before the change, depending on which side’s you were facing.

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

1. People always adapt to the situation and find the most effective way to win.The most effective way to win with such a change would no longer be one giant blob. Such a force couldn’t detect all the small structures that were being taken and they would have to split up into many smaller groups. I like this change. I’ve always hated blobbing and I always will.

2. Maps shouldn’t tell so much information in the first place. I’ve always been a fan of realism in games as much as possible. Since when could medieval commanders pull a map out of their back pocket and find all of their structures that were being invaded?

3. No matter what people say, I’m firmly convinced that scouting will become much more widespread. We already have dozens and dozens of roamers running around with nothing to do. What if an environment for such roamers existed? What if they could actually contribute to the team while having fun? (I realize they can contribute somewhat at the moment, but with such an update they’d have a much more critical role to play in my opinion.)

4. Small roaming groups would be much more effective. When a five man team can cap a tower without even being noticed, smaller servers will be much more effective. I realize this could be a problem with upgrades and such, but I’ll address that in point 5.

5. The entire dynamic of WvW will experience a massive and desperately needed change. Take a look at the full picture. Stop thinking in terms of, “I can’t do this anymore” or, “we won’t have that anymore.” Take a look at everything in perspective. Is this an overall change for the best?

People have objected to upgrades. “Why would anyone spend money if the tower can get flipped so easily?” Well what if the devs change this as well? What if upgrades change from what they are now. What if we completely forget all the “methods” we have learned and experience WvW as something completely new?

It seems to me that every objection to the removal of white swords is founded on no more than unwillingness to change, or relearn anything. No offense to you, op, but the objections you listed are from a single commander’s perspective over a massive blob. What if blobs get retired? What if there have to be many commanders on the map from now on?

In conclusion, I’ll say this: Think carefully everyone. You may not agree with me, but I would be somewhat glad if you didn’t. Think for yourself. Stop going with the flow of what everyone else says. Try to picture this change in an entirely new light. What if this is changing the overall structure of WvW for the better? Are we going to stubbornly reject it and stick with the same stale structure that’s been complained about for far too long?

MightyMicah.7451:

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

1. People always adapt to the situation and find the most effective way to win.The most effective way to win with such a change would no longer be one giant blob. Such a force couldn’t detect all the small structures that were being taken and they would have to split up into many smaller groups. I like this change. I’ve always hated blobbing and I always will.

2. Maps shouldn’t tell so much information in the first place. I’ve always been a fan of realism in games as much as possible. Since when could medieval commanders pull a map out of their back pocket and find all of their structures that were being invaded?

3. No matter what people say, I’m firmly convinced that scouting will become much more widespread. We already have dozens and dozens of roamers running around with nothing to do. What if an environment for such roamers existed? What if they could actually contribute to the team while having fun? (I realize they can contribute somewhat at the moment, but with such an update they’d have a much more critical role to play in my opinion.)

4. Small roaming groups would be much more effective. When a five man team can cap a tower without even being noticed, smaller servers will be much more effective. I realize this could be a problem with upgrades and such, but I’ll address that in point 5.

5. The entire dynamic of WvW will experience a massive and desperately needed change. Take a look at the full picture. Stop thinking in terms of, “I can’t do this anymore” or, “we won’t have that anymore.” Take a look at everything in perspective. Is this an overall change for the best?

People have objected to upgrades. “Why would anyone spend money if the tower can get flipped so easily?” Well what if the devs change this as well? What if upgrades change from what they are now. What if we completely forget all the “methods” we have learned and experience WvW as something completely new?

It seems to me that every objection to the removal of white swords is founded on no more than unwillingness to change, or relearn anything. No offense to you, op, but the objections you listed are from a single commander’s perspective over a massive blob. What if blobs get retired? What if there have to be many commanders on the map from now on?

In conclusion, I’ll say this: Think carefully everyone. You may not agree with me, but I would be somewhat glad if you didn’t. Think for yourself. Stop going with the flow of what everyone else says. Try to picture this change in an entirely new light. What if this is changing the overall structure of WvW for the better? Are we going to stubbornly reject it and stick with the same stale structure that’s been complained about for far too long?

1. Yes, people do adapt. Adapting to a bad change doesn’t make adapting a good thing.

2. That’s your opinion.

3. Scouts have nearly evaporated. People don’t want to squat keeps, towers, camps, for hours and hours and wait for something to happen. Roamers (I am a roamer, btw) have found less and less fights because people don’t respond to an objective under attack if they don’t know it’s being attacked. People also don’t like to run around and do nothing and pray they accidentally find a fight or a group trying to take something. That has been my experience and many others on my server (and others, if you read these threads some more), and less fights = less fun.

4. Sure, they’re effective at taking objectives that aren’t being actively scouted. But that’s a game of PvDoor, where all they do is take something and there is no fight for it. Swords drew people to things that were under attack, and that led to fights. If roamers want to cap stuff with no resistance whatsoever, then yes, this is a good change. If they’d rather fight for what they take, then they suffer from it.

5. I have, and no, and no. And no.

Let’s also not forget that scouting is the most thankless, least rewarding, and (IMO) boring thing in WvW to do. Especially now that fights have dwindled due to the change. Someone actually paid me 5g to scout Hills for 3 hours while it waypointed and fortified earlier tonight. I was the only person in the keep. That’s what this has become.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

MightyMicah.7451:

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

1. People always adapt to the situation and find the most effective way to win.The most effective way to win with such a change would no longer be one giant blob. Such a force couldn’t detect all the small structures that were being taken and they would have to split up into many smaller groups. I like this change. I’ve always hated blobbing and I always will.

2. Maps shouldn’t tell so much information in the first place. I’ve always been a fan of realism in games as much as possible. Since when could medieval commanders pull a map out of their back pocket and find all of their structures that were being invaded?

3. No matter what people say, I’m firmly convinced that scouting will become much more widespread. We already have dozens and dozens of roamers running around with nothing to do. What if an environment for such roamers existed? What if they could actually contribute to the team while having fun? (I realize they can contribute somewhat at the moment, but with such an update they’d have a much more critical role to play in my opinion.)

4. Small roaming groups would be much more effective. When a five man team can cap a tower without even being noticed, smaller servers will be much more effective. I realize this could be a problem with upgrades and such, but I’ll address that in point 5.

5. The entire dynamic of WvW will experience a massive and desperately needed change. Take a look at the full picture. Stop thinking in terms of, “I can’t do this anymore” or, “we won’t have that anymore.” Take a look at everything in perspective. Is this an overall change for the best?

People have objected to upgrades. “Why would anyone spend money if the tower can get flipped so easily?” Well what if the devs change this as well? What if upgrades change from what they are now. What if we completely forget all the “methods” we have learned and experience WvW as something completely new?

It seems to me that every objection to the removal of white swords is founded on no more than unwillingness to change, or relearn anything. No offense to you, op, but the objections you listed are from a single commander’s perspective over a massive blob. What if blobs get retired? What if there have to be many commanders on the map from now on?

In conclusion, I’ll say this: Think carefully everyone. You may not agree with me, but I would be somewhat glad if you didn’t. Think for yourself. Stop going with the flow of what everyone else says. Try to picture this change in an entirely new light. What if this is changing the overall structure of WvW for the better? Are we going to stubbornly reject it and stick with the same stale structure that’s been complained about for far too long?

1. Yes, people do adapt. Adapting to a bad change doesn’t make adapting a good thing.

2. That’s your opinion.

3. Scouts have nearly evaporated. People don’t want to squat keeps, towers, camps, for hours and hours and wait for something to happen. Roamers (I am a roamer, btw) have found less and less fights because people don’t respond to an objective under attack if they don’t know it’s being attacked. People also don’t like to run around and do nothing and pray they accidentally find a fight or a group trying to take something. That has been my experience and many others on my server (and others, if you read these threads some more), and less fights = less fun.

4. Sure, they’re effective at taking objectives that aren’t being actively scouted. But that’s a game of PvDoor, where all they do is take something and there is no fight for it. Swords drew people to things that were under attack, and that led to fights. If roamers want to cap stuff with no resistance whatsoever, then yes, this is a good change. If they’d rather fight for what they take, then they suffer from it.

5. I have, and no, and no. And no.

Thank you for giving such a well thought out response. It’s great to see that you’re thinking for yourself.

MightyMicah.7451:

Thank you for giving such a well thought out response. It’s great to see that you’re thinking for yourself.

The fact that many of us have come to the same conclusion does not indicate that we aren’t/can’t think for ourselves. I played scout last night because it was reset night. I’m not doing it again tonight.

MightyMicah.7451:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

MightyMicah.7451:

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

1. People always adapt to the situation and find the most effective way to win.The most effective way to win with such a change would no longer be one giant blob. Such a force couldn’t detect all the small structures that were being taken and they would have to split up into many smaller groups. I like this change. I’ve always hated blobbing and I always will.

2. Maps shouldn’t tell so much information in the first place. I’ve always been a fan of realism in games as much as possible. Since when could medieval commanders pull a map out of their back pocket and find all of their structures that were being invaded?

3. No matter what people say, I’m firmly convinced that scouting will become much more widespread. We already have dozens and dozens of roamers running around with nothing to do. What if an environment for such roamers existed? What if they could actually contribute to the team while having fun? (I realize they can contribute somewhat at the moment, but with such an update they’d have a much more critical role to play in my opinion.)

4. Small roaming groups would be much more effective. When a five man team can cap a tower without even being noticed, smaller servers will be much more effective. I realize this could be a problem with upgrades and such, but I’ll address that in point 5.

5. The entire dynamic of WvW will experience a massive and desperately needed change. Take a look at the full picture. Stop thinking in terms of, “I can’t do this anymore” or, “we won’t have that anymore.” Take a look at everything in perspective. Is this an overall change for the best?

People have objected to upgrades. “Why would anyone spend money if the tower can get flipped so easily?” Well what if the devs change this as well? What if upgrades change from what they are now. What if we completely forget all the “methods” we have learned and experience WvW as something completely new?

It seems to me that every objection to the removal of white swords is founded on no more than unwillingness to change, or relearn anything. No offense to you, op, but the objections you listed are from a single commander’s perspective over a massive blob. What if blobs get retired? What if there have to be many commanders on the map from now on?

In conclusion, I’ll say this: Think carefully everyone. You may not agree with me, but I would be somewhat glad if you didn’t. Think for yourself. Stop going with the flow of what everyone else says. Try to picture this change in an entirely new light. What if this is changing the overall structure of WvW for the better? Are we going to stubbornly reject it and stick with the same stale structure that’s been complained about for far too long?

1. Yes, people do adapt. Adapting to a bad change doesn’t make adapting a good thing.

2. That’s your opinion.

3. Scouts have nearly evaporated. People don’t want to squat keeps, towers, camps, for hours and hours and wait for something to happen. Roamers (I am a roamer, btw) have found less and less fights because people don’t respond to an objective under attack if they don’t know it’s being attacked. People also don’t like to run around and do nothing and pray they accidentally find a fight or a group trying to take something. That has been my experience and many others on my server (and others, if you read these threads some more), and less fights = less fun.

4. Sure, they’re effective at taking objectives that aren’t being actively scouted. But that’s a game of PvDoor, where all they do is take something and there is no fight for it. Swords drew people to things that were under attack, and that led to fights. If roamers want to cap stuff with no resistance whatsoever, then yes, this is a good change. If they’d rather fight for what they take, then they suffer from it.

5. I have, and no, and no. And no.

Thank you for giving such a well thought out response. It’s great to see that you’re thinking for yourself.

I added a small edit to my comment. Might want to read that before you get snarky with me. I am basing my opinion on my own experiences and those that I run with as well as people I’ve spoken with on other servers. In the last matchup I actually added a few roamers I came across to my contacts to whisper them and ask if they wanted to roll around in a map somewhere and play hide and seek. That’s how desperate we were to get fights. I admit, the hide and seek was a little fun, but when you’re whispering people from another server to ask “hey, uhm, I’ve been running around your BL for the last half hour and I can’t find anyone to fight, you wanna play a game of catch me if you can?” I think that there is something seriously wrong there.

I agree on this, look at my server Isle of Janthir, We’re in the kittenhole people call T3 ( most unbalanced tier OP) we’re off vs Nsp ( which is around our size & glicko rating so no problem) and DB or as i call em the dragonblob ( massively outnumbered us on any map we’re on and have a glicko rating off 200 higher than NSP which would equal to my server fighting Darkhaven) i am an EU player on NA so i play during our downtime at this time DB has around 2-3 guild groups running and spawncamp us in EB which destroys the fun for anyone. i posted a thread on here about adding white swords being added if outnumbered to balance it up a bit ( even though you can’t stop a 25+ man group with only 3 of you) but at least it will help you keep track of em and able to siege up before they get there.

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

Except in reality it just turns the map into pure offense with a little focus on defense. Look at the TC EB map on reset. I think Anz and Mendons belonged to BG/JQ more than TC.

aesthetix.4832:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

aesthetix.4832:

Not only did Choo accurately predict the impact of removing white swords on structures, but word on the street is that he’s atleast an 8.6/10 IRL and can bench 3 plates as well.

- Enthust

Love you <3

Hey who voted on the 8.6/10 lol!

<3

That’s just what I heard through the grapevine.. but 8.6/10 according to e-standards is actually very respectable.. I would just run with it !

Okay I’ll just go with it lol!

oscuro.9720:

Hello, I am Oscuro of Kaineng! (…had to remove portions of your message to allow my response to fit…)

Secondly, I feel this patch benefits roamer a and havoc groups. Most havoc groups should be offensive based if they are doing it right. Therefore, they will have a much higher success rate at capturing objectives with less resistance. This will benefit your server because you will have more points. Have a will even be able to cap keeps if they are skilled enough, and I’m sure a dedicated commander like yourself wouldn’t mind having a 1 keep buffer this brings me to a related point, you said it punishes commanders who are dedicated to looking at the MM. If you are doing this, I suggest you stop. Trusting your spotters is the most efficient way of commanding. When I would command in T1, I knew who the commanders that map watched were because everything was a bit slower paced. Have scouts (roamers, they are on every map and don’t mind it) check out major objectives every so often. I don’t mean stop using the map, but watching diligently for white swords is not something you should be doing unless you are leading a guild group, but even than that is iffy.

Lastly, it’s time you stopped zerging. This is the most beneficial part of this patch. You should have 2 or 3 tags per map to capture towers and than regroup for larger objectives (I.e. Keeps) this is the most effective way to play, despite how much you all love your zergs.
Best Wishes,
-Oscuro of Kaineng

So, I agree that it may help small havoc guilds capture objectives, but it doesn’t help them FIND potential fights. I also roam and I used to use white swords to try and find small groups of enemies. This same tactic is used by havoc groups but they can’t use this tactic any longer. Also, while it helps them offensively take enemy structures as a small havoc group, it doesn’t help them defend any of their own structures against other small havoc groups (again, because there is no indicator, the white swords). I feel like removing white swords only aids in offense while removing defense so even for havoc guilds its a terrible change, once you look past the surface. Lastly, it takes longer to find fights anymore unless you see orange swords and for havoc groups this doesn’t help because they want to have small group fights not zerg fights so no white swords hurts havoc groups there as well.

You say that you can “analyze patterns of the map.” -Oscuro of Kaineng

-but my point is white swords aid in map analysis…

You also say that “most havoc groups should be offensive based if they are doing it right.” -Oscuro of Kaineng

-You’re giving an opinion here, havoc groups have value on defense as well and you’re choosing to overlook their defensive usefulness

You also say (paraphrasing) that I should “stop using white swords and the minimap as a tool for my decision making process as a commander.” -Oscuro of Kaineng

-Not only does this contradict your first statement about using map analysis through pattern analysis but it also doesn’t many any logical sense! Why would I not use every tool available to me as a commander?

You say that I should “stop zerging.” -Oscuro of Kaineng

-I don’t only lead map blobs and you have no credibility with this statement. I roam, havoc, play in guild groups, lead a guild group, and lead publicly. On Eternal Battlegrounds the most efficient play style is to zerg. It has nothing to do with the blob meta even.. its just more useful because of the distance between all structures and the keep. Unlike the Borderlands, Eternal Battlegrounds has much shorter distances and keeping most everyone together is a more efficient way to defend overall. Havoc groups are extremely useful on the borderlands but having more than two 5 man teams on Eternal is useless. The only other way I see effective play on Eternal is having two Guild groups of roughly 30 players who work together on the map.

Overall, my point is that you doing sound very credible. If you were a long-time commander you would use everything you could to win the fight, you wouldn’t want precious tools taken away. Your argument isn’t very poignant, it doesn’t convince me that you have much experience but rather just opinions. I wrote this post with everyone in mind and although its from a commander’s perspective I didn’t create the post just for myself. I wrote it to address how it effects: roamers, havoc groups, guild groups, and pug blobs.

Devildoc.6721:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Introduction:

I have been commanding for almost two years and I can tell you that when the original change to white swords was made where they gave them a delayed response on the mini-map I was already frustrated. Now that we are hearing about white swords being removed I am questioning the so-called “innovative WvW balance ideas” that are being proposed. I don’t want to come across as a “forum-basher” so I am sure that with this introduction I have made clear my feelings on the issue. Let me expand on why removing white swords is bad from a veteran commanders perspective. I am going to express the issues that I see arising as IF white swords being removed was actually implemented into WvW. Keep in mind that the issues I am presenting will compound and scale with lower tiers affecting them in worse ways than higher tiers (I am on Tier 1).

The Problems With Removing White Swords:

1. It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them (something that separates good commanders from mediocre ones).

From a commanders perspective, removing the white swords essentially doesn’t allow me to be rewarded for diligently scanning the mini-map and making decisions based upon what the map tells me. Being an efficient/refined commander takes a very long time and there is a lot of things to manage (the zerg, upgrades, supply, the mini-map, other maps, timers, open-field fights, etc., just to name a few). If I don’t have a way to respond to structures being attacked how am I supposed to be effective on defense?

2. It forces players to sentry which is BAD because it doesn’t allow those players to enjoy the actual WvW experience.

If I can’t as a commander rely on the mini-map to help me with the decision making process then I have to ask people to sit in towers or run mindlessly back-and-forth between different structures to make sure they aren’t being hit. By having them scout/sentry these players aren’t able to enjoy the best parts of WvW which are running with the server community, socializing, being a part of a team, and fighting the enemy on a massive scale. Not to mention, being a sentry at a tower/keep/camp (having your character sit in one tower and report when the enemy comes and drops siege on a gate or wall or goes for a camp, etc.) is BORING and its not actually playing the game as intended. We already have sentries for maps at times because server imbalance during different coverage zones forces us to have people watch fully-upgraded keeps with way points which is already unfortunate (although that’s an issue for another discussion).

I didn’t think of how it affected a commander using the minimap, but #2 is bang on what I’ve been saying all along. Nobody likes sentry duty. I understand it’s necessary for a few key locations but white swords means more locations need sentries, that’s more people who are wasting time ticking siege and missing out on fights.

I’m worried that for big guilds like [CERN] it’ll literally mean a sentry duty watch list, a roster, as commanders fail to get volunteers to waste their time ticking siege and missing fights, so guilds will have to FORCE players to do it or kick them from guild.

I’m convinced the wvw devs at anet don’t know what they’re doing.

I totally agree, and you got the essence of my point! While I do agree that at times we need sentries it can be done in a proactive manner. How I have always led was if I saw white swords and there wasn’t a sentry I could task out 1 person to go scout it out for the rest of our group. This is in my opinion the most optimal way to allow for scouting that doesn’t remove a player from the fight for long periods of time or remove them from interaction with everyone else on the map.

I wouldn’t worry about [CERN]. We have people who willingly scout, but we do NOT force anyone to scout against their own will. Who wants to have their form of entertainment controlled and dictated to them? Not me! So you’ll never see us do a roster for scouting we put our fun and joy first and beyond all else, that’s why we keep things casual but we always have a good time

I’m also convinced Anet needs help with WvW ideas and feedback.

style.6173:

Hvaran.6327:

My facts are pretty straight man.

But u had a a dev in your guild that you could conversate with, attach a mentor to him etc, but u decide to “Push the WvW expirience” here isntead of there.

I don’t think you understand how the adopt a dev program worked. In this particular case, the dev WANTED to run his own build. Why? He is the lead of PvP. He was comfortable with the build and had no interest in WvW after the 3 week period.

There is no point is trying to change the opinion of someone who was just visiting.

Thank you, someone who actually read what I wrote and understands <3!

Precisely, we had no control over it and 3 reset nights isn’t time for that anyways lol

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

You think I am not aware of people who have been scouts helping out their server’s since the day 1 of the game? I use them and thank them on a daily basis! The point is you aren’t being realistic with the fact that as you go down in tiers, the amount of people you have that are willing to scout depreciates. Not to mention, its a two-sided issue for those lower tier servers because they suffer from less people for their offensive groups as well as scouts so committing anyone to scouting hurts them two-fold. When you think about how white swords affect the WvW game-mode, try and make sure you consider the impact for all tiers of play. Yes, I play in tier 1 but my original post was meant to consider all tiers and I understand that the magnitude of any change to the WvW game-mode will usually hurt lower tiers more than tier 1.

Also, I agree that even if you have people willing to scout, on their own accord, then it doesn’t take more than say 3 (WITH white swords) on a map like Eternal Battlegrounds and 4-5 on the Borderlands. In Eternal Battlegrounds for example, if you have 1 in each camp and 1 in the keep you can have them constantly rotate between the camp and each camps adjacent towers to check upgrades, escort yaks, etc. You can also have those same 2 camp scouts take the mercenary camps and things can be fine. However, without white swords as an indicator you need much more than 3 scouts to cover that same area because there is no indicator to help the scouts make calls to the main group or groups on the map in a timely manner. Maybe now you see how this even hurts scouting…or maybe you’re still lost.

Note: If you own Stonemist Castle then I suppose 4 on Eternal Battlegrounds would be necessary but that’s an in-game adjustment that you won’t need as often as having 3.

gennyt.3428:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

Except that this attitude still exists. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Request-to-Commanders-Guild-Raids/4637798

These guys used to play on the server I’m on. When I got tired of defending and wanted to go for a run I would try to join them. They would deliberately WP out to lose any pug who dared to follow them.

If I’m not good enough to run with them, I’m not going to scout for them and I stopped reporting anything to them. They eventually changed servers.

If they’re running a tagless guild raid and you’re not in their guild or hanging in their comms channel then chances are no, you’re not invited. Yes, it’s rejection but it’s most likely not personal. If anything blame Anet for allowing their silly PvE rally system in WvWvW and making it less sociable. Some people want to hang with their friends and have more precision in battle, you could be the rally bait that gets them wiped for lame reasons and ruin their fun and it shouldn’t be hard to respect that. Join or start a public raid or find a guild.

I personally enjoy the rally system it adds a unique dynamic to the WvW game-mode that you just don’t see in other MMO’s. It gives Guild Wars 2 more of a tug-of-war effect than I would say other MMO’s do for large-scale RvRvR play.

johnnymiller.5968:

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

When this is implemented expect constant Golem rushes by overpopulated servers..
Bye bye trying to keep up with servers that have 3 times the numbers.

Those could be a common occurrence before the change, depending on which side’s you were facing.

Other topics in the WvW thread have already posted +695 PPT overnight ticking-score images because defending is impossible now for very-low population servers in low-coverage time zones.

MightyMicah.7451:

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

1.

2.

3.

4.

(Upgrades…)

(Opinion…)

(Conclusion…)

I couldn’t keep your thoughts in the response because of body length limits on the response

That was very brief! (sarcasm, lol!) I’ll respond to your points in the same format.

1. This doesn’t give anyone the incentive to not blob, it actually does the exact opposite. Blobbing is going to be Edge of the Mists level now that people are better off being in the zerg k-training down everything in a sneaky fashion with 5+ rams on a tower door. I don’t think blobbing is how the WvW game-mode should be played either (except maybe in Eternal where I do believe it is most effective other than running 2 organized groups of 30ish). This change doesn’t compel anyone to not blob though so I couldn’t disagree more with your point.

2. You do realize that every tower has Guards and Scouts right? What is the point of a NPC Scout that doesn’t give players any scouting information!? If you can answer that logically I might agree with your theory on realism…but then again probably not because this is a video game and it is not based on real life so the only realism it might need to share is that of the environment, language, some architecture, and well I can’t think of much else. Also, this isn’t Medieval times… if you didn’t notice, we have magic and all kinds of crazy kitten!

3. There is no incentive to scout so why would people do it? WvW if you didn’t notice doesn’t give the best rewards or gold compared to PvE especially and you get literally nothing outside of server-pride and appreciation from others for scouting. There is nothing the game itself is going to reward you with for scouting in WvW. I don’t see more people doing it for that reason alone. There is no progression from scouting, it is a selfless duty to carry out.

4. You’re only looking at this from an offensive standpoint. I agree that it may help small havoc guildscapture objectives, but it doesn’t help them find potential fights. I roam and I used to use white swords to try and find small groups of enemies. This same tactic is used by havoc groups but they can’t use this tactic any longer. Also, while it helps them offensively take enemy structures as a small havoc group, it doesn’t help them defend anything against other small havoc groups. I feel like it only aids in offense while removing defense so even for havoc guilds its a terrible change, once you look past the surface. Lastly, it takes longer to find fights anymore unless you see orange swords and for havoc groups this doesn’t help because they want to have small group fights not zerg fights so no white swords hurts havoc groups there as well.

5. No one is saying that the WvW game-mode doesn’t need some love. I believe WvW needs a lot of love and I believe there are ways to actually change the game mode while rewarding players and giving them incentives to not blob. Removing white swords doesn’t help WvW at all and it doesn’t provide incentives to not blob. It provides incentives to blob! It’s going to be Edge of the Mists in WvW for this whole update… Also, you’re not looking at everything with everyone’s perspective in mind which is my overarching point!

-[On Your Comment About Upgrades] I am not opposed to giving upgrades more purpose. They should make it so that if something goes from tier 1 to tier 2 or tier 2 to tier 3 that you get +5 more PPT for it to be honest. There is no added score value for having things upgrade. Upgrades do provide siege, durability, supply capacity, and varying levels of convenience but nothing that is observed within the score itself. I don’t see how white swords being removed help give upgrades more purpose, can you explain that one to me?

-[On Your Opinion About Opposition to Removing White Swords] This is your opinion. I am full of adaptability, you need that to be a seasoned commander. I’m fine with multiple tags on a map, we already do that in tier 1 even before the change! Also, you’re wrong my opinions considered all player-types in WvW. I considered: roamers, havoc groups, guild groups, and the pug blob.

-[On Your Concluding Statement] I am not opposed to changes to WvW, I am opposed to illogical changes which hurt the overall experience.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

MightyMicah.7451:

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

I’m amazed at how many people are against this change. I think it would be amazing. Let me briefly explain why.

1.

2.

3.

4.

(Upgrades…)

(Opinion…)

(Conclusion…)

1. Yes, people do adapt. Adapting to a bad change doesn’t make adapting a good thing.

2. That’s your opinion.

3. Scouts have nearly evaporated. People don’t want to squat keeps, towers, camps, for hours and hours and wait for something to happen. Roamers (I am a roamer, btw) have found less and less fights because people don’t respond to an objective under attack if they don’t know it’s being attacked. People also don’t like to run around and do nothing and pray they accidentally find a fight or a group trying to take something. That has been my experience and many others on my server (and others, if you read these threads some more), and less fights = less fun.

4. Sure, they’re effective at taking objectives that aren’t being actively scouted. But that’s a game of PvDoor, where all they do is take something and there is no fight for it. Swords drew people to things that were under attack, and that led to fights. If roamers want to cap stuff with no resistance whatsoever, then yes, this is a good change. If they’d rather fight for what they take, then they suffer from it.

5. I have, and no, and no. And no.

Let’s also not forget that scouting is the most thankless, least rewarding, and (IMO) boring thing in WvW to do. Especially now that fights have dwindled due to the change. Someone actually paid me 5g to scout Hills for 3 hours while it waypointed and fortified earlier tonight. I was the only person in the keep. That’s what this has become.

@ Ark Bladesteele

Thank you for showing your thoughts from a roamer’s perspective and validating that I in fact did consider the impact of all play-styles in WvW. I also agree with your feelings on the topic.

style.6173:

Nanyetah Elohi.4852:

If you test this you will see it really doesn’t take a scout in every tower. It only takes a few players willing to kill some time and get killed in the process moving between towers and camps.

Many of us have already been doing this, keeping track of upgrades on ours and the enemies’ stuff. It’s the same idea, simply more diligent and prepared to die.

Except in reality it just turns the map into pure offense with a little focus on defense. Look at the TC EB map on reset. I think Anz and Mendons belonged to BG/JQ more than TC.

So last night we had 4 tags on our Eternal Battlegrounds map and My group of 40 couldn’t fight JQ’s group of 65+ by itself. Our havoc groups were mostly not with us and they were mostly focusing on offense. BG had two groups, one was 15-20ish and the other was 45ish, and while we could fight them when they split up, we still were having mostly uphill battles all night. At the beginning of reset, we were being 2v1’d so we decided to allow Anzalias, Speldan Camp, and Mendons to be taken in order to focus on defending the four more important structures in our third (Red side). I also couldn’t afford to have 7 scouts out of my group when there were already 3 other groups on the same map. So we decided to defend what we could…blame the no white swords partially for that and being 2v1’d as that greater reason for sacrificing those three areas. Even when we tried to be offensive, it was to no avail because JQ was blobbing on Edge of the Mists level and my group of 40 just got ran over all night by their 65+ man blob. Even so, most of the night was more about offense than defense you are correct. As far as not having Anzalias, Speldan Camp, or Mendons for the early part of the night, that was a strategical sacrifice because of being 2v1’d early on.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

My group of 40 couldn’t fight JQ’s group of 65+ by itself.

That’s a learn to play issue my friend. Fix it.

“But YOU let the dev run hambow! How DARE you!”….good god… Again, great example of someone who can type on the internet that really shouldn’t be. Yes, i know i’m derailing a bit, so back on topic: Yes Choo, you were right. You knew all along.

Gudradain.3892:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

My group of 40 couldn’t fight JQ’s group of 65+ by itself.

That’s a learn to play issue my friend. Fix it.

The fact that we come out in 1st or 2nd place every week, consistently, means that he has learned how to play. Just sayin. TC gets tag teamed by BG and JQ every week. Every Saturday night, including tonight, we had JQ hitting one side of our Garri and BG hitting the other side. We crush one server, while the other server kitten s around the rafters, trying not to die, even though they outnumber us 4 to 1.

I’m not complaining. I’ve been in a group of no more than 8 people taking on 20-25 man JQ blob at their north camp and you’d think they would have crushed us pretty easily, but i tend to believe they felt sorry for us and decided to feed us bags (Thanks JQ!).

Its going to be rough for the next few weeks until everyone adapts and learns.

I am liking the change thus far, because some of the small groups i tend to run with are being given more opportunity to flip objectives more often.

@MomentofWeakness I figured I wouldn’t quote your comment because it was quite long and I might run out of characters haha, but I intend to address each one of your defenses with my perspective on the matter. Before I do, I’d like to thank you very much for being respectful and kind. We may disagree, but I’d rather disagree with a kind person who (<-Dang filter->) respects my thoughts and rationally debates, rather than someone who shoves their opinion down my throat. So thank you. (Also, I did intend to be brief but I guess it turned out quite long indeed lol!)

1. Well we certainly disagree. It seems to me that if you have 50 people on the map and swords do not show up, it would be much more effective to break into five groups and assault towers/keeps with just a couple ram masters. After all, if the enemy is in a giant ball, they can only move so fast. They simply will not be able to move fast enough to stop every group because they don’t know which towers are being hit. This, in turn causes a ripple effect which will force this giant Zerg to split up as well. Thus, we now have several skirmishing groups across the map.

Admittededly I haven’t seen commanders adapting in this way yet, however, I was able to pop on my tag on SOS and convince a few dedicated followers of my opinion. We freaked out the enemy Zerg quite effectively and managed to take a decent chunk of the map, all the while being outnumbered. (Not the buff outnumbered, but we were certainly outnumbered overall.) This is only one instance and it cannot support the weight of my entire claim, but it does help.

2. Haha it’s true that there’s magic and crap, however I simply used Medieval to refer to the warfare that Gw2 most resembles in my opinion. As for your point about the scouts, they can’t give you information if they’re dead. Perhaps the devs could implement an NPC who flees from the tower upon it being attacked? I mean I’m just making crap up but who knows.

3. I think you misunderstand my argument. Scouting sucks right now (by right now, I mean with white swords) but go back to my first point. If there are groups everywhere capping stuff without indication, the role of a scout becomes of utmost importance. Not only could a good scout catch these groups and inform the map, but many scouts (especially thieves) could potentially cause serious harm to these groups if talented enough. It’s true the rewards aren’t great, but that’s the case for roaming right now and plenty of people still roam. The question is whether or not it would be fun. That is the ultimate reward for any video game.

4. Finding fights would be fairly easy when there are fights spread across the map. As is, there is really only one (or maybe two at prime time) fights going on on a map. But again, go back to my first point. People will be everywhere. Finding a fight shouldn’t be difficult if I am correct.

5. Well we certainly agree that WvW needs more love. Personally, I’d really appreciate it if you could message me some of your ideas. I try to see things from everyone’s perspective, and I have played the role of roamer, commander, zergling, GvGling (not sure what to call that lol) etc. This doesn’t make me an expert or anything, but I do try my best.

6. (Upgrades) What I meant to say is that using the argument “upgrades are now useless” is not a good argument. The devs could adapt upgrades accordingly. The question is whether or not removing white swords is a step in the right direction. I believe that it is. But we must focus on the goal. What is the goal that we are aiming for? If removing white swords brings us closer to that goal, upgrades is a minor setback that can be easily fixed.

7. Your final two addresses, I have nothing to say to. (I don’t mean that in negative way. I simply have nothing to say haha.) Thanks for taking the time to read this. I look forward to your next response.

@Micah: I agree with quite a bit of what you said. You know as well as i do, the the issue with “The Zerg” is that the zerg feeds to types of players: Those out to farm and the, what i like to call, the “Civil Warriors”. The Civil Warriors are people who enjoy, more so, the zerg vs zerg fights. They don’t much care for havoc’ing, since running in a havoc is perceived not to give you much reward. I say “percieved”, because its comes out around the same, as far as rewards.

Personally, i’d love to see more havocs, but at the same time, zerg serve a purpose. They are meant (and needed) to be that huge, “Main Force” of the server. They’re a distraction for the havocs to sneak in and flip objectives. I think this is why you don’t see a commander break down a zerg into 4 groups. First, you’re forcing people into a playstyle they aren’t comfortable with. Second, its difficult to manage. Third, not every server has the warm bodies to make for that many offensive fronts.

I’d like to see ANet’s metrics on how many people are on any given server at a time and then have them break down the limit of people to that of the smallest server and do this dynamically, if possible.

If i have server A, B, C and server C has the least amount of people with 30, then servers A and B are limited down to the same amount, but never any less than 25ish, so that the feature isn’t abused. Add two more “EBs”, so that there is enough zones for everyone to get on, on reset night.

Just a thought. Yes, WvW needs some love.

I lo e the way every one keeps crying “blobbing” and crying “night capping” as some conjured argument against removing white swords. Yet every other thread before white swords were removed, was complaints about large blobs night capping. All of the sudden, you actually expect people to take those excuses serioisly?

coglin.1867:

I lo e the way every one keeps crying “blobbing” and crying “night capping” as some conjured argument against removing white swords. Yet every other thread before white swords were removed, was complaints about large blobs night capping. All of the sudden, you actually expect people to take those excuses serioisly?

People aren’t complaining that there are suddenly blobs or night caps. People are complaining that removing white swords promotes both of these things and makes them more effective, which is the opposite of what Anet should have done.

Sneaky lemon, playing defensive is not rewarding. People won’t sit in a tower for an hour. Worse if you swap defense for like 5 minutes people start nagging.

Removing white swords is a two-edged sword. It really does benefit the more populated servers more than the less. In general a more populated server can spare players to go cap something when the less populated needs everyone out there fighting(can’t spare people to be scouts like a more populated server can).

I love your suggestion to use the undermanned buff as a boost to structures.

As one of the greatest WvW players on TC, I agree with everything Choo has said.