Guild Wars 2

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

SoPP.7034:

NPC AI is predictable yet some state that encountering a random player in PvP is less challenging?

Less challenging is the correct word. Predictable AI are less predictable and more challenging than 100% of WvW players and 99% of PvP’ers.

Some interesting reading from the Dungeon section.

EDIT:

Link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-do-you-prefer-pve-over-pvp/first#post3480736

Most players in WvW are zerglings. If you meet them allone, they are no challange. Zerglings only become a danger in numbers.

If you compare 5v1 (what is common in dungeons, one boss 5 players^^), then of course it is no challange

Eh, WvW doesn’t take a lot of skill

but running dungeons take even less skill – most of which is just avoiding the insta-gib attack from the NPCs

I have been for months a WvW player, but not a zergling, but a roamer. I can tell you, roaming takes skill, probably one of the hardest things in the game.

Quaggan is fooOOo-furious.

this delves into a few problem areas with MMOs in general. the difference between a real challenge and an artificial challenge. mobs in PvE usually constitute an artificial challenge. that isn’t to say that PvE can’t be difficult, it usually is. however the difficulty is due to this artificial challenge. a real challenge revolves around approximately even terms. basically, both sides working within the same set of rules. before MMOs came out, NPC enemies in RPGs were built exactly the same as the player characters. the same rules and standards, the same abilities and spells. so if you fought a monster that was equal level to you, it would be a very difficult fight that you weren’t assured to win.

with MMOs, and most video games in general, that dynamic got tossed completely out the window. NPC mobs began operating under their own custom ruleset. they were given more HP and better damage. even in games like NWN, where the mobs could be equipped with gear, they were given these advantages and even given access to much much better gear than any of the players would ever see. this became the new definition of a challenge. so when players complain that something isn’t challenging, instead of altering the fight itself to make it a challenge, most developers just boosted the NPCs far beyond what the PCs were capable of, and called it a day.

the reason given for that is that the AI can’t compare with what a human mind can do. the truth is, AI never even bothers to attempt it. it’s been left as dumb as a rock for decades now. the same AI we faced in the original zelda game for the NES is the same AI we’re facing now, just with some more tricks. at the core, though, it’s the same. “move to player, attack attack attack, die, possibly drop loot”

what’s really interesting, is that in single player games, the AI has improved, and has improved a great deal. enemies in games such as metal gear solid are far more intelligent and realistic than anything we’ve ever seen in any MMO. there’s actual intelligence, reasoning, deduction. “there’s a wet footprint on the ground. who left it? where did it come from? they lead this way, i’ll follow it and see what’s there.” as compared to “my jedi mind powers are telling me that there’s someone standing over there…… BERSERKER MODE ACTIVATE”

(continued)

now, why hasn’t the AI improved in MMOs? a myriad of reasons, however, they pretty much all boil do to most people not wanting it to. sure, they might say that they do, and some do want it to improve. however, when designing a game, and allotting a budget, development companies are forced to focus on aspects the majority of their potential playerbase wants. flashy graphics, phat lewt, lots of buttons to push, convenience simply for the sake of coddling (the quest tracker in neverwinter is a prime example of this one). it all results in the same game getting pushed out year after year by pretty much every single company. sure, the lore and some details may be different, but the core experience is identical. grind to max level, grind to get BIS gear, grind reputation/valor/honor/badges/comms/etc., sit around in town doing nothing while waiting for the next content update to come out to repeat the entire cycle all over again.

it’s a very detrimental process to the industry as a whole, really. because instead of producing quality games, companies are forced to crap out the same recycled garbage over and over again. and even when a game comes out that may break that downward cycle, it gets crushed under the weight of complaints until it’s forced to change its design to be just another sheep in the herd. i can’t tell you how many complaints simply boil down to “this game isn’t like x, make it like x”, even if x was the game they were fleeing from.

this is where PvP has an advantage. there’s no AI that needs to be improved, just player knowledge and skill. every fight is it’s own unique experience. and because of such, PvP tends to have fewer overall requirements than PvE. it just has to be set up right, and people will play it until their eyes bleed. the two most stable groups in MMOs are RPers and PvP players. because they just need to be given the proper tools, and can be left on their own to make their own fun. unfortunately, a lot of games tend to ignore these solid demographics, in favor of trying to convince PvE players to stick around. no development studio can ever hope to keep up with the demand from PvE players, not even gw2 with its living story. however, it’s always assumed that PvE players are where the money is. so that’s who gets the bulk of the attention. however, that’s operating under the false assumption that RPers and PvP players don’t also spend their fair share of money. they do, and they deliver stable income on a regular basis. what happens is that thse two demographics end up feeling neglected, because they usually are, and they make the decision to stop supporting a company that doesn’t support them. it’s entirely justifiable. however, by the time their money stops rolling in, the PvE vein has long since dried up. they’ve moved on to “beat” other games, new players have joined to take their place, and those new players become old players who also move on. the game itself has shifted to try to accommodate this, and in doing so strips itself of everything that once made it worth playing. it turns from a quality game into just another tourist trap. it’s all about trying to lure the constantly rotating playerbase into shelling out as much cash as possible during the short time they’re around.

and that entire cycle itself repeats itself time and again. so challenge, and improvements to shift artificial challenge closer to a real challenge get left by the wayside. PvE, for the most part, is left as “memorize the patterns, move out of the circles”, when it could and should be so much more at this point in time. but quality doesn’t compare to quantity when money is concerned, and that is the SOLE motivation for any company large enough to produce a AAA MMO. get as many people in as possible, get their money, drive them out in order to bring in the next load or wallets. it leaves the entire industry, as a whole, completely devoid of any integrity. it makes an undeniable impression on people, a very negative impression. and i honestly believe that unless that changes, the MMO industry as a whole will implode on itself under the weight of its own ego and greed. the signs are already showing. indie companies are gaining a lot of traction, because they focus on substance over flash. they have to. they can’t afford the flash, so there had better be a lot of substance if they expect anyone to play the games. ironically, this was the same place where most large companies intially began. they grew their name based on the quality of their work, but at some point forgot where they came from and became the monsters they once stood against.

Phantom.8130:

this delves into a few problem areas with MMOs in general. the difference between a real challenge and an artificial challenge. mobs in PvE usually constitute an artificial challenge. that isn’t to say that PvE can’t be difficult, it usually is. however the difficulty is due to this artificial challenge. a real challenge revolves around approximately even terms. basically, both sides working within the same set of rules. before MMOs came out, NPC enemies in RPGs were built exactly the same as the player characters. the same rules and standards, the same abilities and spells. so if you fought a monster that was equal level to you, it would be a very difficult fight that you weren’t assured to win.

with MMOs, and most video games in general, that dynamic got tossed completely out the window. NPC mobs began operating under their own custom ruleset. they were given more HP and better damage. even in games like NWN, where the mobs could be equipped with gear, they were given these advantages and even given access to much much better gear than any of the players would ever see. this became the new definition of a challenge. so when players complain that something isn’t challenging, instead of altering the fight itself to make it a challenge, most developers just boosted the NPCs far beyond what the PCs were capable of, and called it a day.

the reason given for that is that the AI can’t compare with what a human mind can do. the truth is, AI never even bothers to attempt it. it’s been left as dumb as a rock for decades now. the same AI we faced in the original zelda game for the NES is the same AI we’re facing now, just with some more tricks. at the core, though, it’s the same. “move to player, attack attack attack, die, possibly drop loot”

what’s really interesting, is that in single player games, the AI has improved, and has improved a great deal. enemies in games such as metal gear solid are far more intelligent and realistic than anything we’ve ever seen in any MMO. there’s actual intelligence, reasoning, deduction. “there’s a wet footprint on the ground. who left it? where did it come from? they lead this way, i’ll follow it and see what’s there.” as compared to “my jedi mind powers are telling me that there’s someone standing over there…… BERSERKER MODE ACTIVATE”

(continued)

Check out the company “Story bricks”. Finally a company that is VASTLY improving the minds of air to be like players and not just attack the first person who comes close to the NPC and have an insanely large amount of health. And who is taking advantage of this new system? Everquest Next

Cush.4063:

Check out the company “Story bricks”. Finally a company that is VASTLY improving the minds of air to be like players and not just attack the first person who comes close to the NPC and have an insanely large amount of health. And who is taking advantage of this new system? Everquest Next

that…… fills me with many happy thoughts. thank you for informing me.

Hilarious. PvEasy has never required skill and will never require skill, not in this game, nor in any other. Dungeon scrubs at their finest.

The amount of pve in wvw does make it take a lot of searching to find a skilful fight, though. It’s quite rare for a solo roamer to find something that isn’t a lone gvger that gets hard-countered by their 1v1 build or a group that steamrolls them. Likewise a gvg team is rarely going to find a group of similar size and organisation. The suggestion that any of it is easier than anything in standard pve is still absolutely ridiculous; like saying a positive integer can be less than zero.

Phantom.8130:

Cush.4063:

Check out the company “Story bricks”. Finally a company that is VASTLY improving the minds of air to be like players and not just attack the first person who comes close to the NPC and have an insanely large amount of health. And who is taking advantage of this new system? Everquest Next

that…… fills me with many happy thoughts. thank you for informing me.

Right?!?!?!?!

TyPin.9860:

Most players in WvW are zerglings. If you meet them allone, they are no challange. Zerglings only become a danger in numbers.

If you compare 5v1 (what is common in dungeons, one boss 5 players^^), then of course it is no challange

Read what ColdTart stated, he speaks the truth.

A lot of guild raid groups have their members run a specific build meant to synergize with a TEAM. So yea, your build made specifically for 1v1’s is going to wreck that guy lol.

@DivineBeing.2086:
You might have missunderstood my comment as an insult. That was not intended. No matter if pug or guild zergling, if you meet a zergling allone, he/she is screwed. Basicly what Coldtart.4785 said.

@Cush.4063:
Evercuest Next sounds amazing. They made so many promises. However, breaking their first that Everquest Landmark would be released end of 2013 was already a joke. If you announce a release in some month that I assume the product is finished and in it’s final testing phase. However, now the alpha or beta is running and Landmark will hit in March (as far as I know). That made them already unbelievable for me and a companie as any other. I expect Everquest Next to be as disapointing as the GW2 “dynamic event” system or “personalized story”.

@Phantom.8130:
AI: There is actually much research going on in the matter of AI. However, the term AI is misleading. Because it is a simulated or “virtual” Intelligence (VI). This kind of “intelligence” is strongly scripted and can never keep up with a player. But the research of neuronal networks, that can learn via “microevolution” is very interesting, but far far away from being implemented in a game.
MMOs & Companies: Yeah, what have we seen in GW2? Big promises of dynamic events and the player’s actions in those events to matter. But they never delivered. I blame NCsoft. I think they have pushed the GW2 development way too soon and the qualaty of the game has suffered so much, that it is basilcy like any other MMO. If it wasn’t for the WvW, I would have left that game already.

TyPin.9860:

@DivineBeing.2086:
You might have missunderstood my comment as an insult. That was not intended. No matter if pug or guild zergling, if you meet a zergling allone, he/she is screwed. Basicly what Coldtart.4785 said.

@Cush.4063:
Evercuest Next sounds amazing. They made so many promises. However, breaking their first that Everquest Landmark would be released end of 2013 was already a joke. If you announce a release in some month that I assume the product is finished and in it’s final testing phase. However, now the alpha or beta is running and Landmark will hit in March (as far as I know). That made them already unbelievable for me and a companie as any other. I expect Everquest Next to be as disapointing as the GW2 “dynamic event” system or “personalized story”.

@Phantom.8130:
AI: There is actually much research going on in the matter of AI. However, the term AI is misleading. Because it is a simulated or “virtual” Intelligence (VI). This kind of “intelligence” is strongly scripted and can never keep up with a player. But the research of neuronal networks, that can learn via “microevolution” is very interesting, but far far away from being implemented in a game.
MMOs & Companies: Yeah, what have we seen in GW2? Big promises of dynamic events and the player’s actions in those events to matter. But they never delivered. I blame NCsoft. I think they have pushed the GW2 development way too soon and the qualaty of the game has suffered so much, that it is basilcy like any other MMO. If it wasn’t for the WvW, I would have left that game already.

lol? that’s ridiculous. So many games/everything get delayed. consider it a good thing that they are actually making sure that the game will be great from the start and not a horrible release with tons of bugs. Completely blowing off the whole game over a release date seems a bit far but to each his own. I’m excited, although I don’t think I’ll ever get enough of GW2 either.

I mean, would you rather have started playing and been introduced to so many bugs that it would push you away from liking the game?

Coldtart.4785:

Hilarious. PvEasy has never required skill and will never require skill, not in this game, nor in any other. Dungeon scrubs at their finest.

The amount of pve in wvw does make it take a lot of searching to find a skilful fight, though. It’s quite rare for a solo roamer to find something that isn’t a lone gvger that gets hard-countered by their 1v1 build or a group that steamrolls them. Likewise a gvg team is rarely going to find a group of similar size and organisation. The suggestion that any of it is easier than anything in standard pve is still absolutely ridiculous; like saying a positive integer can be less than zero.

What does the average player find easier?

Lupicus, Alphard, or WvW zerging?

mahariel.4981:

What does the average player find easier?

Lupicus, Alphard, or WvW zerging?

That’s a pretty leading question. I could ask what the average player finds easier:

15v15 GvG’s, taking a fortified Hills from 40 defenders, or CoF P1?

Obviously, there’s easy content in both WvW and PvE. Yeah, soloing Lupi might take more skill than mashing 1 in an 60 man blob PvDooring everything down, but that’s not to say PvE requires more skill than WvW.

The reason I prefer WvW, and the reason I think WvW ultimately requires “more skill” is just that PvE content is, for the most part, static. World bosses are often mash-1-fests. We’ve killed Teq without turrets, and we’ve solo’d Lupi with bearbows, kitten . WvW, on the other hand, is always dynamic. And every balance patch creates new metas for both organized GvG’s and solo roamers. You have to constantly adapt to new servers and new situations, and you can go from crushing other servers to being outnumbered in an hour due to a few bad calls.

I tried a full day of WvW. It was fun…at first. I’m a thief so I solo roamed, killing dolyaks, taking supply camps, running resources, upgrading, etc. At the end of the day, i had spent well over 100g and couldn’t even afford to repair my armor. After that, I’ve only been back to WvW to enter the Jumping Puzzles…well, until those rewards were nerfed too.

There’s no incentive for me to go to WvW. I like it and all but I like having gold and armor better.

Elbegast.6970:

I tried a full day of WvW. It was fun…at first. I’m a thief so I solo roamed, killing dolyaks, taking supply camps, running resources, upgrading, etc. At the end of the day, i had spent well over 100g and couldn’t even afford to repair my armor. After that, I’ve only been back to WvW to enter the Jumping Puzzles…well, until those rewards were nerfed too.

There’s no incentive for me to go to WvW. I like it and all but I like having gold and armor better.

I have no idea how you spent 100g on WvW in a day. WvW definitely nets you a profit in the end, though a smaller profit than PvE would. Even commanders don’t use 100g worth of siege in a day.

Also, as a thief roamer, you probably shouldn’t be dying enough that armor repair actually ends up being a significant cost.

mango.9267:

mahariel.4981:

What does the average player find easier?

Lupicus, Alphard, or WvW zerging?

That’s a pretty leading question. I could ask what the average player finds easier:

15v15 GvG’s, taking a fortified Hills from 40 defenders, or CoF P1?

Obviously, there’s easy content in both WvW and PvE. Yeah, soloing Lupi might take more skill than mashing 1 in an 60 man blob PvDooring everything down, but that’s not to say PvE requires more skill than WvW.

The reason I prefer WvW, and the reason I think WvW ultimately requires “more skill” is just that PvE content is, for the most part, static. World bosses are often mash-1-fests. We’ve killed Teq without turrets, and we’ve solo’d Lupi with bearbows, kitten . WvW, on the other hand, is always dynamic. And every balance patch creates new metas for both organized GvG’s and solo roamers. You have to constantly adapt to new servers and new situations, and you can go from crushing other servers to being outnumbered in an hour due to a few bad calls.

By “we” do you mean yourself or are you specifically talking about obal’s gandalf and bearbow solos? Because one person does not mean PvE content is trivial, it’s quite clear he’s an exception.

And how dynamic is it really? People figure out the meta and then play it, which is exactly what happens in PvE. The warrior PvE meta went from 30/0/0/10/30 to 30/25/0/0/15 after the change to empower allies, that doesn’t suddenly mean it’s suddenly more skillful.

My experience of organised WvW could probably be summed up as following orders, keeping myself alive and bantering on voice comms, it didn’t really feel like I was having my (in the case of anything PvP) [lack of] skill challenged, whereas soloing bosses in PvE, or even doing them in a group of pugs can make them a hell of a lot harder. Even Subject Alpha goes from faceroll to a pain in the kitten because people didn’t stack him properly, and learning and waiting for specific tells to dodge and trying to manipulate his movement to get him back in to a corner I found a hell of a lot more skillful than anything I’ve done or seen in WvW.

It’s nice to not see a “hurrr pve faceroll” response though, most people who say that either just don’t do it and have no idea or run their trash WvW tank specs in to PvE which allows them to completely ignore encounter mechanics. Likewise for “hurrr wvw faceroll” people who bring their zerker gear to WvW and eat dirt.

mahariel.4981:

By “we” do you mean yourself or are you specifically talking about obal’s gandalf and bearbow solos? Because one person does not mean PvE content is trivial, it’s quite clear he’s an exception.

I didn’t intend my examples to trivialize PvE content, but rather indicate their repetitive nature. Lupi was great the first time I encountered him, and I personally found him quite challenging as well. However, after we (my guild and I) learned his attacks, cast time, animations, etc., it eventually got stale, and what was originally challenging became fairly easy. I suspect the reason people do things like solo Lupi or kill Teq without turrets is just because it’s become too stale for them otherwise.

mahariel.4981:

And how dynamic is it really? People figure out the meta and then play it, which is exactly what happens in PvE. The warrior PvE meta went from 30/0/0/10/30 to 30/25/0/0/15 after the change to empower allies, that doesn’t suddenly mean it’s suddenly more skillful.

My experience of organised WvW could probably be summed up as following orders, keeping myself alive and bantering on voice comms, it didn’t really feel like I was having my (in the case of anything PvP) [lack of] skill challenged, whereas soloing bosses in PvE, or even doing them in a group of pugs can make them a hell of a lot harder. Even Subject Alpha goes from faceroll to a pain in the kitten because people didn’t stack him properly, and learning and waiting for specific tells to dodge and trying to manipulate his movement to get him back in to a corner I found a hell of a lot more skillful than anything I’ve done or seen in WvW.

I guess I should be more specific about what I mean by dynamic. I don’t mean that you’ll be fighting a great diversity of builds (quite the contrary, usually). What I mean is that each server and each guild does things differently. Their group composition, their strategy, which maps they hit, etc. WvW involves taking into account all of those things, along with coordinating with other guilds about what objective to pursue and when. This changes every day, as other servers adapt, and every week, with new servers in the mix (well, less so now with the new match-up system). Lupi, on the other hand, won’t adapt to your feedback, no matter how many times you cast it. Alpha won’t alter the timing of his aoe, no matter how many times you count to 2 and dodge. The same can’t be said for enemy players.

It sounds like your experience has been dominated by zerging with the commander. I admit that individual play in a zerg vs. zerg is pretty boring: avoid aoe circles, stay on tag, and aoe/CC everything you can (with the occasional banner for you, as a warrior). However, zergbusting 15 vs. 40, small scale 5v5 fights, and solo 1vX roaming are all much more involved and dynamic than blobbing would lead you to believe.

I didn’t intend my examples to trivialize PvE content, but rather indicate their repetitive nature. Lupi was great the first time I encountered him, and I personally found him quite challenging as well. However, after we (my guild and I) learned his attacks, cast time, animations, etc., it eventually got stale, and what was originally challenging became fairly easy. I suspect the reason people do things like solo Lupi or kill Teq without turrets is just because it’s become too stale for them otherwise.

Lupi isn’t pure repetition anyway, there’s a bit of RNG to which skills he uses. For example after transition to phase three he might just do his AOE life drain (which messes up non-suicide speed kills) or you might get lucky and he just does life suck, a few blasts then drops dead. Or in phase one you can be double kicked.

I guess I should be more specific about what I mean by dynamic. I don’t mean that you’ll be fighting a great diversity of builds (quite the contrary, usually). What I mean is that each server and each guild does things differently. Their group composition, their strategy, which maps they hit, etc. WvW involves taking into account all of those things, along with coordinating with other guilds about what objective to pursue and when. This changes every day, as other servers adapt, and every week, with new servers in the mix (well, less so now with the new match-up system). Lupi, on the other hand, won’t adapt to your feedback, no matter how many times you cast it. Alpha won’t alter the timing of his aoe, no matter how many times you count to 2 and dodge. The same can’t be said for enemy players.

I’ve played in both EU and NA t1, and literally the only difference was that euro pugs are more organised. I found it a complete joke how much of a mess Sanctum of Rall zergs are, the commander asks for fields or blasts and a whopping jack **** happened. When I was on Seafarer’s Rest, our pugs were far more responsive, at least until the free transfers before leagues anyway. Apart from that, blasting might, veils, water fields, hammer trains, same **** different servers.

It sounds like your experience has been dominated by zerging with the commander. I admit that individual play in a zerg vs. zerg is pretty boring: avoid aoe circles, stay on tag, and aoe/CC everything you can (with the occasional banner for you, as a warrior). However, zergbusting 15 vs. 40, small scale 5v5 fights, and solo 1vX roaming are all much more involved and dynamic than blobbing would lead you to believe.

When I said organised I didn’t mean braindead zerging, I meant actually taking part in guild raids. And I will reiterate, those guild raids felt like following orders, surviving and bantering on teamspeak. That’s even while being outnumbered and blob busting. Not to say that’s a bad thing, we play games to have fun, but it didn’t really feel like it was particularly skill intensive for me. Plus when I died, well there was another mesmer who could veil/feedback/null field for me anyway.

You can claim 1vX roaming is more involved and dynamic, but when dungeon regulars I know post videos of them 4v1’ing with lag and people trying to run through their death wall twice, that just screams incompetence to me.

Funny. I dont really PvE.. but I did 4 dungeons last week with my guidies.. 3 of which I had litterally never been to in my life. They were all a cake walk.. just stand where my friend told me to stand and press 1-5 in whatever order maximised my DPS. Occasionally you have to dodge one attack, but I wouldnt call that skilled in any sense.

95% of PvE difficultly appears to be in knowing all the tricks, tactics, places to stand, what to skip and what to fight, etc. Its all a knowledge game.. the actual execusion of the fights is a joke, and not even a funny one.

WvW is the same when you’re zerging and you’re the biggest zerg around.. It really is no different, but personally I roam which I find much more enjoyable and unpredicatable. You meet someone and until you engage you dont know what youre dealing with, what build, how skilled are they, you dont know how long you have before other people turn up, all these things are what make it interesting and challenging.. rather than running a dungeon you’ve done 100 times before, every time being exactly the same.

Cush.4063:

lol? that’s ridiculous. So many games/everything get delayed. consider it a good thing that they are actually making sure that the game will be great from the start and not a horrible release with tons of bugs. Completely blowing off the whole game over a release date seems a bit far but to each his own. I’m excited, although I don’t think I’ll ever get enough of GW2 either.

I mean, would you rather have started playing and been introduced to so many bugs that it would push you away from liking the game?

GW2 was released too early. There were still too many bugs. And I believe NCsoft has made ANet speed up on the development resulting in many many broken pormisses (like dynamic events and choices that would actually matter. Look at the manifesto video and then look where the game actually is).

About the delayed release date. I too find it good, when u try to perfect things. But they have made such a big promise at this convention. Like many others had made many promisses before. If you aren’t shure that u can deliver, don’t hype it up that much. But that’s the marketing these days. Everything seems way bigger and more revolutionarry. And when u see the actual content, you get a punch in the face. But that’s my own fault, for believing I guess. However, we get way off topic here. We will see if Everquest Next can deliver on the pormise of an actual AI or more dynamic world. But I doubt it.

Cufufalating.8479:

Funny. I dont really PvE.. but I did 4 dungeons last week with my guidies.. 3 of which I had litterally never been to in my life. They were all a cake walk.. just stand where my friend told me to stand and press 1-5 in whatever order maximised my DPS. Occasionally you have to dodge one attack, but I wouldnt call that skilled in any sense.

95% of PvE difficultly appears to be in knowing all the tricks, tactics, places to stand, what to skip and what to fight, etc. Its all a knowledge game.. the actual execusion of the fights is a joke, and not even a funny one.

WvW is the same when you’re zerging and you’re the biggest zerg around.. It really is no different, but personally I roam which I find much more enjoyable and unpredicatable. You meet someone and until you engage you dont know what youre dealing with, what build, how skilled are they, you dont know how long you have before other people turn up, all these things are what make it interesting and challenging.. rather than running a dungeon you’ve done 100 times before, every time being exactly the same.

Were any of them Arah or high level fractals?

if yes > please specify specific faceroll fights
if no > you were playing faceroll content, try again

I would like to see a boss AI, that follows an adaptive tactics principple.

The boss will at first use random tactics or a set of pre scripted tactics, but the AI will evaluate how well the boss did. How many players he downed, how many were killed and if the group succeeded in killing him. Then he pics the most effective stragety. When it becomes less effective, because the players adapted, he starts to alternate it again, with different skills and different timings and the circle starts anew.

If that could be porgrammed, you would have a boss that would use at the beginning standart strategies, will but adept after some time to the players and then they need to adapt again and so forth.

Lupicus adapts.

In phase 1 melee he uses scream, grub and kick attacks
In phase 1 ranged he just uses scream and grub attacks

In phase 2 melee he uses his AOE projectile blast, single shot lupine blast and swipe
In phase 2 ranged he uses his AOE projectile blast, single shot lupine blast and shadowstep

In Phase 3 melee he uses his life suck, AOE life drain, single shot lupine blast and spray
In Phase 3 ranged he uses his life suck, AOE life drain, single shot lupine blast, spray, bubble and shadowstep

I might have some of the ranged mechanics wrong because I never range, but I think I got it right.

He also doesn’t do these in a set rotation, though the general rule with some RNG exceptions is that he won’t repeat the same skill immediately after doing it once.

Elbegast.6970:

I tried a full day of WvW. It was fun…at first. I’m a thief so I solo roamed, killing dolyaks, taking supply camps, running resources, upgrading, etc. At the end of the day, i had spent well over 100g and couldn’t even afford to repair my armor. After that, I’ve only been back to WvW to enter the Jumping Puzzles…well, until those rewards were nerfed too.

There’s no incentive for me to go to WvW. I like it and all but I like having golod and armor better.

What did you spend 100g on? I spend a lot of time upgrading camps, towers, keeps and I have never spent that much gold, even being on for 8 hour+ runs.

PvE is predictable, and after lots of experience predictable becomes easy. Everything that happens in WvW is created by the players. The enemy can be anywhere and you may or may not have the numbers to defeat it. Tactics change depending on the situation. That is why WvW is more exciting to me.

Phantom.8130:

this delves into a few problem areas with MMOs in general. the difference between a real challenge and an artificial challenge. mobs in PvE usually constitute an artificial challenge. that isn’t to say that PvE can’t be difficult, it usually is. however the difficulty is due to this artificial challenge. a real challenge revolves around approximately even terms. basically, both sides working within the same set of rules. before MMOs came out, NPC enemies in RPGs were built exactly the same as the player characters. the same rules and standards, the same abilities and spells. so if you fought a monster that was equal level to you, it would be a very difficult fight that you weren’t assured to win.

with MMOs, and most video games in general, that dynamic got tossed completely out the window. NPC mobs began operating under their own custom ruleset. they were given more HP and better damage.

That’s absolutely wrong. A decade before MMOs were invented games on the SNES like FInal Fantasy had monsters with 100x the health of a player.

rhapsody.3615:

Elbegast.6970:

I tried a full day of WvW. It was fun…at first. I’m a thief so I solo roamed, killing dolyaks, taking supply camps, running resources, upgrading, etc. At the end of the day, i had spent well over 100g and couldn’t even afford to repair my armor. After that, I’ve only been back to WvW to enter the Jumping Puzzles…well, until those rewards were nerfed too.

There’s no incentive for me to go to WvW. I like it and all but I like having golod and armor better.

What did you spend 100g on? I spend a lot of time upgrading camps, towers, keeps and I have never spent that much gold, even being on for 8 hour+ runs.

PvE is predictable, and after lots of experience predictable becomes easy. Everything that happens in WvW is created by the players. The enemy can be anywhere and you may or may not have the numbers to defeat it. Tactics change depending on the situation. That is why WvW is more exciting to me.

If it’s so easy, let’s see some boss solos then. I have some pretty bad ones I performed off the cuff on my YouTube profile in my signature, what about you?

mahariel.4981:

Lupicus adapts.

In phase 1 melee he uses scream, grub and kick attacks
In phase 1 ranged he just uses scream and grub attacks

In phase 2 melee he uses his AOE projectile blast, single shot lupine blast and swipe
In phase 2 ranged he uses his AOE projectile blast, single shot lupine blast and shadowstep

In Phase 3 melee he uses his life suck, AOE life drain, single shot lupine blast and spray
In Phase 3 ranged he uses his life suck, AOE life drain, single shot lupine blast, spray, bubble and shadowstep

I might have some of the ranged mechanics wrong because I never range, but I think I got it right.

He also doesn’t do these in a set rotation, though the general rule with some RNG exceptions is that he won’t repeat the same skill immediately after doing it once.

Lulu doesn’t adapt. Lupi just does things at random and changes mode when you hurt him.

If you want adapt, I’d like to see a boss that checks to see if his attack hit. If it doesn’t, he tries another attack. If it hits, he gets positive reinforcement to do that attack again. If bosses had AI like this, no player would ever finish a dungeon.

Imagine if Mai Trinn just told Horrick to release the cannons every second, because that’s whats most effective? Imagine if Lupi did projectiles in phase 2 while always walking closer to you? Our never survive. That’s what an adaptive AI would do.

Boss AI in gW2 isn’t like that, it’s the same as the AI back in Rockman 1 where Iceman jumps and shoots three icicles of different heights. Once you know the pattern, all you do is work with it and you win. That’s the kind of AI GW2 has; bosses are designed to be puzzles you figure out, once you do it’s easy to follow the pattern and beat them.

Funny story, I just saw a video of a guardian soloing Lupi naked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXvuSbAZFjk

Once you understand boss mechanics, PvE is mind numbing.

Because one person has the skill to solo Lupi naked means PvE is mind numbing?

I know Lupicus like the back of my hand but I still can’t solo him consistently, would be nice to see these WvW kids have a crack at it themselves and then tell us all how easy PvE is.

It’s the same mentality about WvW except WvW is a dynamic game type while PvE will continue to be static. Your fight with a zerg all the way down to a 1v1 will never be the same while the boss fight with Lupi will ALWAYS be the same, unless Anet makes a change to it. SPvP will always be different as well because your opponents are not on some cheese script. Ok, I’m fighting this warrior, he’s about to go phase 2 so I should expect him to pop bull’s charge, frenzy, and 100B me. Dodge!

I’d be glad to see how well a PvE carebear does in WvW. Probably like that thief a few posts up that somehow spent 100G+ on upgrades and repairs but never came back. If he spent the time to learn, he would get a grasp on how WvW works and then his encounters would never repeat themselves.

For anyone interested on the evolution of ai, here’s a video on a little explanation on the ai that storybricks is making. There’s a lot more to it such as the combat and such but this might get people interested into researching about new and upcoming ai. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1EtESFC34

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

It’s the same mentality about WvW except WvW is a dynamic game type while PvE will continue to be static. Your fight with a zerg all the way down to a 1v1 will never be the same while the boss fight with Lupi will ALWAYS be the same, unless Anet makes a change to it. SPvP will always be different as well because your opponents are not on some cheese script. Ok, I’m fighting this warrior, he’s about to go phase 2 so I should expect him to pop bull’s charge, frenzy, and 100B me. Dodge!

I’d be glad to see how well a PvE carebear does in WvW. Probably like that thief a few posts up that somehow spent 100G+ on upgrades and repairs but never came back. If he spent the time to learn, he would get a grasp on how WvW works and then his encounters would never repeat themselves.

This PvE carebear joined a WvW guild, took part in guild raids and busted blobs.

So how about we go and see your Lupicus solo? You know, since it’s faceroll.

I have a terrible solo on my youtube profile without food, oil, stacks, proper rotations and I was lagging almost the entire time, so clearly it’s faceroll amirite?

It’s funny how one side tries to prove to the other, how much more challenging their favorite game mode is. Keep on going, it is quite entertaining. I’m waiting for the video, where one WvWer solos an entire enemy zerg naked

Apparently using trial and error to find the correct response to every boss action that leads to a win is what passes for skill in pve these days. The only reason why people can fail at pve content is because they don’t know the method to win, whether through never having played the content or through ignorance of it. If you know the method of a boss, you cannot fail.

Pve can never require skill because it was designed to be beaten. Nothing that can be called skill can be obtained in the course of defeating something that was made to lose.

mahariel.4981:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

It’s the same mentality about WvW except WvW is a dynamic game type while PvE will continue to be static. Your fight with a zerg all the way down to a 1v1 will never be the same while the boss fight with Lupi will ALWAYS be the same, unless Anet makes a change to it. SPvP will always be different as well because your opponents are not on some cheese script. Ok, I’m fighting this warrior, he’s about to go phase 2 so I should expect him to pop bull’s charge, frenzy, and 100B me. Dodge!

I’d be glad to see how well a PvE carebear does in WvW. Probably like that thief a few posts up that somehow spent 100G+ on upgrades and repairs but never came back. If he spent the time to learn, he would get a grasp on how WvW works and then his encounters would never repeat themselves.

This PvE carebear joined a WvW guild, took part in guild raids and busted blobs.

So how about we go and see your Lupicus solo? You know, since it’s faceroll.

I have a terrible solo on my youtube profile without food, oil, stacks, proper rotations and I was lagging almost the entire time, so clearly it’s faceroll amirite?

Are you trying to prove the point that 1 player can beat a boss in PvE dungeon, built to challenge 5 players, lacking food, oil, stacks, executes proper rotations and lagging the entire time and still wins?

I think you basically answered your own question. When you know the phases, do you call it a challenge or a faceroll? If I knew how a player would react to every move I do, would you call it a challenge or a faceroll?

Props to you, you beat the scripted boss. If there wasn’t phases to Lupicus or any boss for that matter and it was all RNG and you never knew what to expect or who he would mostly be targeting then it would be a different story.

Talking about repetition: Many players I find in WvW fights have their skill rotation. If you fight one and the same guy several times, you will learn that rotation. You can learn that in one fight already, if that fight takes some time. So you will be able to predict his actions and adapt accordingly, making it as easy as PvE to deal with quite many of the average roamers.

@Coldtart.4785:
Wut? I know you try to apply some fancy logic her, but your general statement is somewhat not correct. Just because smth has a predesigned weakpoint, doesn’t mean, that it does not require skill to exploit that weakpoint. It is allways a matter of how difficult it is to exploit.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

mahariel.4981:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

It’s the same mentality about WvW except WvW is a dynamic game type while PvE will continue to be static. Your fight with a zerg all the way down to a 1v1 will never be the same while the boss fight with Lupi will ALWAYS be the same, unless Anet makes a change to it. SPvP will always be different as well because your opponents are not on some cheese script. Ok, I’m fighting this warrior, he’s about to go phase 2 so I should expect him to pop bull’s charge, frenzy, and 100B me. Dodge!

I’d be glad to see how well a PvE carebear does in WvW. Probably like that thief a few posts up that somehow spent 100G+ on upgrades and repairs but never came back. If he spent the time to learn, he would get a grasp on how WvW works and then his encounters would never repeat themselves.

This PvE carebear joined a WvW guild, took part in guild raids and busted blobs.

So how about we go and see your Lupicus solo? You know, since it’s faceroll.

I have a terrible solo on my youtube profile without food, oil, stacks, proper rotations and I was lagging almost the entire time, so clearly it’s faceroll amirite?

Are you trying to prove the point that 1 player can beat a boss in PvE dungeon, built to challenge 5 players, lacking food, oil, stacks, executes proper rotations and lagging the entire time and still wins?

I think you basically answered your own question. When you know the phases, do you call it a challenge or a faceroll? If I knew how a player would react to every move I do, would you call it a challenge or a faceroll?

Props to you, you beat the scripted boss. If there wasn’t phases to Lupicus or any boss for that matter and it was all RNG and you never knew what to expect or who he would mostly be targeting then it would be a different story.

Still waiting for your solo video, broski.

Unless… there’s actually challenge? Just how there’s challenge in WvW? Sure, I didn’t find it overly skill intensive, but there are clearly challenging elements to it.

It makes me laugh when people say how faceroll it is but they’ve probably never left AC and COF, and probably don’t even run full berserker, and even if they do, they probably don’t even do it properly.

This is a video of a PvE guild in WvW. They are clueless on the steps to defeat players.

Mochann.5298:

Phantom.8130:

this delves into a few problem areas with MMOs in general. the difference between a real challenge and an artificial challenge. mobs in PvE usually constitute an artificial challenge. that isn’t to say that PvE can’t be difficult, it usually is. however the difficulty is due to this artificial challenge. a real challenge revolves around approximately even terms. basically, both sides working within the same set of rules. before MMOs came out, NPC enemies in RPGs were built exactly the same as the player characters. the same rules and standards, the same abilities and spells. so if you fought a monster that was equal level to you, it would be a very difficult fight that you weren’t assured to win.

with MMOs, and most video games in general, that dynamic got tossed completely out the window. NPC mobs began operating under their own custom ruleset. they were given more HP and better damage.

That’s absolutely wrong. A decade before MMOs were invented games on the SNES like FInal Fantasy had monsters with 100x the health of a player.

two things. first, final fantasy is a video game. hence why i said “and most video games in general”. and second, decades before final fantasy was ever even dreamed of, D&D had monsters that operated under the same set of rules as the players. before the SNES was invented, Shadowrun had enemies that operated under the same set of rules at the players. coincidentally, both D&D and Shadowrun are still going strong all these decades later. in fact, (to kittenize a chris rock joke), if D&D woke up tomorrow with the same number of players as WoW, D&D would jump out of a kitten window.