Guild Wars 2

To add to your post, other good ideas given out already:
1) Faster / cheaper upgrades
2) More chance to drop siege blueprints
3) Extra supply carrying capacity
4) More supply carried by yaks

Okaishi.8320:

Maybe 10-15% reduction per borderland you control them on. As such they are very relevant to warfare in WvW, and they do not damage morale as badly as the raw boost to the enemy stats.

My kitten they don’t. Do you realize what 30-45% siege damage reduction means? It means the bigger force is literally unstoppable and your defensive siege is irrelevant. You’ve effectively given everyone an extra couple thousand toughness.

If somehow, staring down 150 stats, is demoralizing. How do you think a defender is going to feel when he sees 20 golems with 45% siege damage reduction? What, exactly, are you going to do to stop that?

Luiz Swordbreaker.6547:

To add to your post, other good ideas given out already:
1) Faster / cheaper upgrades
2) More chance to drop siege blueprints
3) Extra supply carrying capacity
4) More supply carried by yaks

1.) Overpowered/worthless
2.) Worthless
3.) Way over the top
4.) Overpowered

i saw a post somewhere where someone suggested making holding the temples confer a bonus to WvW players, since WvW players confer a bonus to PvE players.

i think these bloodlust points could have potential if they operated in such a manner. let them help pve players, and let the temples help WvW players. but don’t give them stat bonuses. magic find, gold find, karma gain and repair cost reduction only.

Vena.8436:

My kitten they don’t. Do you realize what 30-45% siege damage reduction means? It means the bigger force is literally unstoppable and your defensive siege is irrelevant. You’ve effectively given everyone an extra couple thousand toughness.

If somehow, staring down 150 stats, is demoralizing. How do you think a defender is going to feel when he sees 20 golems with 45% siege damage reduction? What, exactly, are you going to do to stop that?

If there’s a huge blob with 20 golems and you’re outnumbered badly your keep will be lost either way. There’s no stopping that, period. However, even with that siege protection there’s still plenty of ways to outplay a blob, it’s not like siege will stop doing damage and stuff like chokes with a bunch of ACs will still prove very valuable. Given the recent buffs to pretty much every siege in the game, especially ACs are still a pain and people just sit on them doing more damage to attackers than any player without an AC could ever dream of. Getting some more protection against this with this mechanic would atleast be somewhat of a step in the other direction. And unlike the stat buffs, siege protection won’t mess with so many other things, like small scale, open field fights and GvGs. If people are interested in somewhat fair fights that is.

Shiren.9532:

For the supposed WvW elite you guys seem to have great difficulty comprehending the difference between a server wide buff that can be locked away in a fully upgraded keep stacked with siege and two gates to break down before you can get the orb or having to defend three points at all times with no defensive gates or walls, just terrain designed to raise the skill cap on combat.

There’s obviously a difference, never claimed it wasn’t. The effect from the stats increase however will be pretty much the same, and it’s bound to be in favor of the strongest (read: most populated) servers most of the time, leading to even more uneven match-ups, that’s basically settled before the weekend is over, thinking otherwise is just naive.

Shiren.9532:

I doubt it will turn the tide in battle for a losing server. What I expect it will do is it will give players something new and valuable to fight over. It will create new activities to do in WvW that will matter. Instead of having the option of joining the zerg, pointlessly roaming, scouting or flipping supply camps, you can now fight over the ruins. Open field combat, no walls or gates to knock down, lots of emphasis on terrain in combat and a guarantee that a zerg alone can’t replace you. The stat bonus from holding it means that you can feel like you are contributing to your server (honestly very few people will care about reduced damage from seige, especially on lower servers, a celestial buff is something most players can understand and care about).

I believe we both agree that the buff obviously needs to hold some kind of value for people to actually care about them, but I’m also under the impression that having a stats increase will make them slightly too meaningful, as holding them on all 3 borderlands will provide a significant amount of stats that will simply be far too game-changing for servers to not care about. This will again result in larger groups spending the majority of their time here, which again means that you can kiss your “roaming-paradise” farewell before it’s even began.

I really like the look of the new area, and definitely think it would be in a step in the right direction, I don’t mind the extra points you get for stomping, but what worries me is the mentioned stats increase, and I’d much rather see something like reduced siege damage instead, as it would still encourage people to care about the buff, but not too much. The very least they could do would be to drop the scaling of it between the borderlands, and instead just having it count towards the border your actually on.

Shiren.9532:

In addition to this, the ability to score points with stomps means that roamers will contribute more to their server.

I like this as well

Shiren.9532:

The orb buff and the ruins mechanic offers a lot of the WvW community. The fact that some other communities don’t like it doesn’t detract from its value to WvW.

This will certainly spice WvW up a bit, but again, if it’s made too meaningful I believe the actually concept behind it will be working against it’s cause. Secondary objects should remain secondary, and should not be seen as main objectives, if that makes any sense.

What other communities are you on about exactly? Because as far as I’m aware of I’m first and foremost a WvWer, I’ve played since early beta, and I’ve spent countless of hours raiding with my guild in WvW, on pretty much a daily basis. Just because I find enjoyment in the odd experience of having a GvG every once in awhile, to get away from what has become kind of tedious WvW’ing, doesn’t give you the right to belittle my opinions.

Shiren.9532:

The whining from the “GvG” community because their interests aren’t being placed ahead of WvW is getting really old.

I wouldn’t categorize most of it as whining, as believe it or not, there are actually people on here who has invested time and effort into this game and don’t want to see all that being wasted, without at least having shared their thoughts and letting their voices being heard on the matter. If anything I’d call that being passionate.

Dual.8953:

Let us act astounded and disgusted that they did what they said they’d do!!!

In all seriousness, I find people’s reaction on these board face palm worthy. It’s like no one sees the value of strategy and coordination. Only basic number, be it damage or body count. They wouldn’t know a fortifide military base from a hole in the ground. I mean it, the can’t tell the differemce between locking an orb in the center of a fully equipped, fully upgraded keep; and a series of capture point, left in the open where anyone can waltz in.

I might have exaggerated a bit, but the principle is the same, I don’t expect you to understand that though.

Okaishi.8320:

If there’s a huge blob with 20 golems and you’re outnumbered badly your keep will be lost either way. There’s no stopping that, period.

I don’t think you realize how powerful golems are even in fairly fair fights, or how much more powerful they’d be if they took 50% less damage from the thing designed to counter them (ie. siege).

Your comment on outplaying the blob depends on the caveat that you presume the blob to be comprised of idiots. What happens when the blobs are all comprised of organized guilds? All of a sudden, the organized + siege buffed force, pretty much has an auto-win in the siege war vs. your organized – siege buffed force. Yay! 50% damage is a staggeringly large amount (as is 30%). It turns superior ACs into regular ACs, it turns regular ACs into a breeze on the wind.

Protection, that buff some classes have, is an incredibly powerful buff and can (and will) completely decide the flow of a battle.

Okaishi.8320:

And unlike the stat buffs, siege protection won’t mess with so many other things, like small scale, open field fights and GvGs. If people are interested in somewhat fair fights that is.

Can we just stop all the deceptive foreplay at this point? Let’s just say it the way we want to say it: “I want buff X because it won’t imbalance my preferred gameplay Y. I don’t care if it imbalances Z.”

I’m not saying I don’t care if other things are unbalanced. Can you say you don’t care about that 100-man blob having 150 of all stats? That’s 1.5k hp, 150 armor, etc on all of them.

Golems are strong enough as it is, and I would suggest that the protection doesn’t work on them, much like how other buffs don’t work either. The numbers I mentioned are just examples anyway, if 10-15% proves to be far too strong then I wouldn’t mind settling for 5% or something. Whatever it takes to find an alternative to the silly stat buffs.

Okaishi.8320:

I’m not saying I don’t care if other things are unbalanced. Can you say you don’t care about that 100-man blob having 150 of all stats? That’s 1.5k hp, 150 armor, etc on all of them.

To be fair, I don’t actually think of 150 stats as anything of large relevance (its basically food). If the blob of a 100-men truly outnumbers you 10:1 than 150 stats don’t matter. If two blobs are fairly even 100:90 or even 100:100, there is incentive for the blobs to break and hold/defend those nodes for their immediate affect because a swing of 150 points from one team to another can influence things. By breaking up the blob, you add a lot more incentive for people to actually be good on the small scale and not rely on blobbing about.

And as far as my guild is concerned and open field fighting, a 150 stat buff (assuming we do nothing about it) isn’t going to break out backs anymore than a few more people showing up to fight us or having rallybait following us around. In fact, we can’t even control the latter two while we most certainly can control the ebb and flow of the former.

We roam and look for fights in the open field with group sizes anywhere from 10 to 30, we fight with siege and topology in mind. We’re never looking for fair fights, heck we’re largely looking for the complete opposite and steeped against us as much as humanely possible to overcome. Thats why we play WvW.

Okaishi.8320:

Golems are strong enough as it is, and I would suggest that the protection doesn’t work on them, much like how other buffs don’t work either. The numbers I mentioned are just examples anyway, if 10-15% proves to be far too strong then I wouldn’t mind settling for 5% or something. Whatever it takes to find an alternative to the silly stat buffs.

But this is besides the issue, you’re still on the mindset of: “I don’t care if it imbalances some other thing, so long as it does imbalance my thing.” This is called bias.

murtas.2417:

Bring Habib back.

I think ppl are forgetting that Habib didn’t really do anything much. The culling issue was a game wide problem not something that Habib did exclusively for WvW, and the extension of his quotes regarding the orb reveal that the major reason for the orbs being removed was the hacking not the buffs. There were countless suggestions made at the time that the buffs shouldn’t be about boosting stats but they were ignored then just as they are being ignored now.

Unfortunately Anet as a whole have a view of WvW that is different from most of the hardcore WvW community and they refuse to acknowledge or accommodate the player base.

big NO, this doesn’t help at all with the current issues in WvW in fact it makes them worse, its going to end up with winning with numbers rather then player skill. God knows what will happen to the GvG community as well.
Its become quite the serious topic in our guild, and will effect what we do in the future, either stay on gw2 or go, depending on how the aftermath scene will look like for GvG/WvW.

I think the nickname Orgo (GvG showdown) has given Devon The Carver is suitibly placed for the situation that now faces us.

Vena.8436:

To be fair, I don’t actually think of 150 stats as anything of large relevance (its basically food). If the blob of a 100-men truly outnumbers you 10:1 than 150 stats don’t matter. If two blobs are fairly even 100:90 or even 100:100, there is incentive for the blobs to break and hold/defend those nodes for their immediate affect because a swing of 150 points from one team to another can influence things. By breaking up the blob, you add a lot more incentive for people to actually be good on the small scale and not rely on blobbing about.

This argument is as relevant for 150 increased stats or some added defense against siege. Plus I think siege protection has more strategic relevance than just throwing some additional stats in the mix.

I’m just observing the passive gameplay of sitting in keeps all day long, avoiding fights and if there’s some attackers you will just rain your 5+ superior ACs on them, which will pretty much melt through anything except for maybe those 20 golems, which is the other extreme. On the one hand a keep can be an extreme pain to attack unless you resort to golems, on the other hand it can flip really fast if you just throw enough of them at those gates. There’s some risk involved in the latter one though, but things are generally less risky the more numbers you’re packing.

I don’t see why you’d think having increased stats would be better for ‘balance’ than having some added protection against siege. I don’t think I’m any more biased than you are. Siege protection would only be relevant in some situations, whereas the stats affect everything. I’m all up for challenges, may it be facing far greater numbers or just really skilled opponents. I have a problem though when the opponent has some advantage over you just because of the simple fact that they have more coverage.

Okaishi.8320:

This argument is as relevant for 150 increased stats or some added defense against siege. Plus I think siege protection has more strategic relevance than just throwing some additional stats in the mix.

150 stats imbalances everything evenly; siege defender imbalances one thing greatly or plays to the “don’t touch what I like, touch this other thing”.

That is the bias.

Okaishi.8320:

On the one hand a keep can be an extreme pain to attack unless you resort to golems, on the other hand it can flip really fast if you just throw enough of them akitten There’s some risk involved in the latter one though, but things are generally less risky the more numbers you’re packing.

Well of course, when you outnumber 100:1, you’re not really taking a risk. :P

Taking a keep is hard, forcing a keep into defensive submission generally isn’t. Pressuring Bay/Hills with five to ten people is incredibly easy and effective if coordinated with larger guilds. Or small scale attacks on a tower while pressure is more directly applied to a Keep by a blob. This is common play in T1.

The response is often times small groups which invites small scale combat.

Okaishi.8320:

I have a problem though when the opponent has some advantage over you just because of the simple fact that they have more coverage.

This statement can be stated and slated against any buff that has value. Some people like having siege in open field fights, some people don’t. Some people like “structured PvP”, some people don’t. The list goes on.

Fact of the matter is, a stat buff is immediate and always important, therein always relevant for people fighting over the ruins.

This is a bad idea to give server C and B an advantage over server A, the new maps idea is awesome and i think it will be fun. But giving buffs that make the state of WvWvW unfair isn’t a good idea, pleaase don’t do this ArenaNet!! >:[

Well people, you always go on how you want to have zerging reduced, and this is a step in that direction. It favors getting small parties to split off to turn those power points for the main zerg.

Obviously populated servers are getting more out of this, but they are getting more out of anything, so it is not making bad match-ups any worse, while enhancing the game between almost equal opponents.

Another change that ANet is making which shows they have no idea on how to handle WvW.

They have some very questionable WvW game designers.

GreenAlien.5623:

Well people, you always go on how you want to have zerging reduced, and this is a step in that direction. It favors getting small parties to split off to turn those power points for the main zerg.

Obviously populated servers are getting more out of this, but they are getting more out of anything, so it is not making bad match-ups any worse, while enhancing the game between almost equal opponents.

This. Doesnt. Split. Zergs.

Seriously, stop saying this. The map changes are a good thing but anyone thinking this will do anything but increase the number of scouts around those points once a blob owns them is just blowing hot air. This magical wish of all people looking for WvW fights WILL NEVER HAPPEN because the buff in question isnt removed when you negate the circle but when you take it. Take the buff, IE that massive zerg that can move everywhere on the map in minutes can still make it to you before you get the buff and smash you against the giant wall that is 1 spam.

It is hillarious to read people trying to defend this idea. The individuals who dont see the massive imbalance that is WvW getting that much worse with a buff that is given to servers who just have more people. The biggest problem with NA WvW is the simple fact that everyone transfered to literally 4 servers and the population is so spread out. Numbers are not skill, hitting a wall when people sleep isnt skill, and sitting on siege isn’t skill.

Small groups actually fighting against even odds and relatively balanced fights are skill based. For a supposed PVP game the complete lack of understanding of balance is comical. No fun will ever be had when imbalance is your basic starting point. The only thing that will happen is people will quit.

Malachi.1836:

GreenAlien.5623:

Well people, you always go on how you want to have zerging reduced, and this is a step in that direction. It favors getting small parties to split off to turn those power points for the main zerg.

Obviously populated servers are getting more out of this, but they are getting more out of anything, so it is not making bad match-ups any worse, while enhancing the game between almost equal opponents.

This. Doesnt. Split. Zergs.

Seriously, stop saying this. The map changes are a good thing but anyone thinking this will do anything but increase the number of scouts around those points once a blob owns them is just blowing hot air. This magical wish of all people looking for WvW fights WILL NEVER HAPPEN because the buff in question isnt removed when you negate the circle but when you take it. Take the buff, IE that massive zerg that can move everywhere on the map in minutes can still make it to you before you get the buff and smash you against the giant wall that is 1 spam.

It is hillarious to read people trying to defend this idea. The individuals who dont see the massive imbalance that is WvW getting that much worse with a buff that is given to servers who just have more people. The biggest problem with NA WvW is the simple fact that everyone transfered to literally 4 servers and the population is so spread out. Numbers are not skill, hitting a wall when people sleep isnt skill, and sitting on siege isn’t skill.

Small groups actually fighting against even odds and relatively balanced fights are skill based. For a supposed PVP game the complete lack of understanding of balance is comical. No fun will ever be had when imbalance is your basic starting point. The only thing that will happen is people will quit.

Just like people quit Pokemon, and Marvel vs Capcom 2, and Smash Bros. Oh wait…

Dual.8953:

Malachi.1836:

GreenAlien.5623:

Well people, you always go on how you want to have zerging reduced, and this is a step in that direction. It favors getting small parties to split off to turn those power points for the main zerg.

Obviously populated servers are getting more out of this, but they are getting more out of anything, so it is not making bad match-ups any worse, while enhancing the game between almost equal opponents.

This. Doesnt. Split. Zergs.

Seriously, stop saying this. The map changes are a good thing but anyone thinking this will do anything but increase the number of scouts around those points once a blob owns them is just blowing hot air. This magical wish of all people looking for WvW fights WILL NEVER HAPPEN because the buff in question isnt removed when you negate the circle but when you take it. Take the buff, IE that massive zerg that can move everywhere on the map in minutes can still make it to you before you get the buff and smash you against the giant wall that is 1 spam.

It is hillarious to read people trying to defend this idea. The individuals who dont see the massive imbalance that is WvW getting that much worse with a buff that is given to servers who just have more people. The biggest problem with NA WvW is the simple fact that everyone transfered to literally 4 servers and the population is so spread out. Numbers are not skill, hitting a wall when people sleep isnt skill, and sitting on siege isn’t skill.

Small groups actually fighting against even odds and relatively balanced fights are skill based. For a supposed PVP game the complete lack of understanding of balance is comical. No fun will ever be had when imbalance is your basic starting point. The only thing that will happen is people will quit.

Just like people quit Pokemon, and Marvel vs Capcom 2, and Smash Bros. Oh wait…

People have already quit. If you havent noticed these population trends even on Yaks Bend you are just simply blind

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

At no point did I, or would I have, said “Fair competition” WvW is not intended to be “fair”. There are servers with more people, there are servers with better organizations and that will always be the case. This competition will be about showing how your world can do over a defined period of time, against a variety of opponents. SPvP is the part of our game that aims for a completely level playing field. WvW would never be able to match that goal.

At least he’s holding true to his words and I’m guessing Devon has never stepped foot in WvW during his short tenure at ANet. I don’t really know what to say at this point.

“The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.”

Out of touch bro, out of touch. Thanks for buffing zerging once again… Swap outmanned buff with bloodlust… atleast that would make more sense but no.

How long till bloodlust gets removed from WvW like orbs were for the exact same reason? or you going to wait till you lose a lot of WvW guilds and more servers die before you take note of your consumer playerbase? who are giving you a major heads up btw… but are ignored yet again and could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back in some cases. The communication with the WvW community as been pretty poor, its like having pver’s incharge of all player vs player decisions… buff ac’s, give buff to all stats to strongest population server, more supply drain for server with most numbers. Never fixing waypointing, way to encourage zerging.

I don’t want a bonus to my stats that gives me a unfair edge over my opposition… and I don’t want my enemy to have a stat boost to have a unfair edge over me bro… I want to win with teamwork and skills not gear and buffs mate or siege for that matter…

Malachi.1836:

Numbers are not skill, hitting a wall when people sleep isnt skill, and sitting on siege isn’t skill.

Small groups actually fighting against even odds and relatively balanced fights are skill based.

I don’t really understand why you’re throwing around “skill” as the highest ideal of WvW. People who roam around in large groups aren’t doing it to impress you. They’re doing it because it’s a well-rewarded activity in a game that, like most MMORPG’s, is all about pursuing incremental rewards as part of a large playerbase. They don’t care whether or not you approve of the skillfulness of their reward pursuit.

If you want a game type that more heavily emphasizes skill, you’re in luck because GW2 is one of the few MMORPG’s to even have one: it’s called sPvP.

Stice.5204:

If you want a game type that more heavily emphasizes skill, you’re in luck because GW2 is one of the few MMORPG’s to even have one: it’s called sPvP.

tPvP is 5v5 they want larger scale fights than that.

Can we get back culling as a counter to Bloodlust?

How about getting some WvW’rs involved in decisions as to the vision, the future of WvW. How about you TELL US, what your vision for WvW is. Are you afraid thakittens such a bad/kitten vision that is unwanted by the WvW guild communities all over that you are keeping it secret to milk the game for as long as you can?

Why can’t you tell us this vision?

I’m just watching some guildcast crap on twitch and it reminds me of listening to ANET devs. When they started talking about WvW, those PVERS knew nothing at all. Yet they are exactly the type of brainless, skill less scrubs that you “THINK” are your WvW player base.

Give up on Spvp – its badly done. Your true E-sport lies in your Guilds that do WvW competitively.

Stice.5204:

Malachi.1836:

Numbers are not skill, hitting a wall when people sleep isnt skill, and sitting on siege isn’t skill.

Small groups actually fighting against even odds and relatively balanced fights are skill based.

I don’t really understand why you’re throwing around “skill” as the highest ideal of WvW. People who roam around in large groups aren’t doing it to impress you. They’re doing it because it’s a well-rewarded activity in a game that, like most MMORPG’s, is all about pursuing incremental rewards as part of a large playerbase. They don’t care whether or not you approve of the skillfulness of their reward pursuit.

If you want a game type that more heavily emphasizes skill, you’re in luck because GW2 is one of the few MMORPG’s to even have one: it’s called sPvP.

You hit the nail on the head. Those people are doing it for the reward, and that in itself is the problem. Pvp games used to be about just that THE PVP not the shiny rewards you get from running in massive blobs. Good games last not because they have incremental rewards but because they have a competitive system in place that keeps people coming back for more fights. Running in large groups so large that they make any form of combat simply 1 fests is boring and repetitive. sPVP and tPvp would be great if they only allowed for more customization, and open world combat.

But I waste time here, everyone who realizes that this game for PPT and siege is old hat already understands this

Stice.5204:

If you want a game type that more heavily emphasizes skill, you’re in luck because GW2 is one of the few MMORPG’s to even have one: it’s called sPvP.

To be honest sPvP, in my opinion, is boring and I don’t see why WvW players not wanting the snowball effect the buff will have means they should go there instead.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

And it also means that outnumbered servers will get their kitten wooped even harder which causes an imbalance. Didn’t you guys see what happened to other games? It’s going downhill with this game aswell if you add imbalances.

Istaf.1953:

Stice.5204:

If you want a game type that more heavily emphasizes skill, you’re in luck because GW2 is one of the few MMORPG’s to even have one: it’s called sPvP.

To be honest sPvP, in my opinion, is boring and I don’t see why WvW players not wanting the snowball effect the buff will have means they should go there instead.

I am opposed to the snowball effect and generally disapprove of how WvW matchmaking is handled, I just don’t see how denigrating the “skill” of people who roam around in large groups gets us anywhere. They aren’t playing to impress you with their skills so they really don’t care.

WvW shouldn’t put a premium on individual skill, that’s what sPvP is for. However, WvW should promote more organizational and strategic complexity for large teams by encouraging multiple medium sized forces instead of a single giant blob.

Stice.5204:

WvW shouldn’t put a premium on individual skill, that’s what sPvP is for. However, WvW should promote more organizational and strategic complexity for large teams by encouraging multiple medium sized forces instead of a single giant blob.

Well wouldn’t that be skill? The other guy is right about sitting on a AC, and how it isn’t skillful. However how your team uses them, is. I would also argue that it is individual skill. The group as a whole, generally, listens to one person for direction. While it is up to the group to execute, the commands are still coming from a individual who is basically playing real time chess. Without the commands nothing gets done. If both sides are doing this, it not only comes down to how well the commander is directing, but the individuals in the group and their execution of the commands. All of these things take skill when put to the test.

So, in my opinion, to say there isn’t skill in WvW is flat out wrong.

Istaf.1953:

So, in my opinion, to say there isn’t skill in WvW is flat out wrong.

As I’ve said a hundred times, the only people who think zerg warfare is mindless, are the folks who mindlessly follow zergs.

The BIGGEST issue with the old orbs (besides the freaking hacking) and the new bloodlust is the stacking. Make the kitten buff specific to a borderland, that way when the coverage issues start to show, and a server has to go down to 1-2Bls +EB they aren’t even worse off because they have no way to cover that extra BL’s buff.

I will say though, that I wish they could have brought orbs back in some way compared to this. The excitement of stealing an orb on an enemy BL was honestly one of the things I miss the most in WvW.

Natronix.9827:

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

But people dont care for things like this! People care for FUN fights, these must be equal or close to it, those that every move make a difference in the out come not some silly extra stats due to more coverage on another map

Are you even slightly aware of sPvP? Because that’s where fights are “equal or close to it”. In WvW from DAY#1 it was never about equality, nor will it ever be. The guy you’re fighting could have a thief buddy come up and backstab you; he could be in all Exotic gear while you’re in all greens; you could be level 80 with Talent Point stats and he could be upscaled from level 10 without any. You see my point, right?

WvW is not about individuals or small groups attempts at ‘even fights’ of 10vs10 or 20vs20 [behind the Windmill, taking up queue space]. WvW is about server participation as a whole, and efforts at a “world war”. Getting the nuke/buff is basically getting a key power to win the war. …..do what you can to stop your enemy for obtaining that power and instead obtain it for yourself.

style.6173:

Personally, I think the bloodlust (horrible name btw since that prefers to power in the game) should do the following:

1. Double wxp gained while the buff is active
2. Double karma gained while the buff is active
3. Double magic find while the buff is active
4. Double points earned while the buff is active

Of those, 4 is really the most exciting. It means that a server that is behind could focus on holding the buff in order to help with a comeback.

A bit hypocritical that people saying that the “Buff will cause snowball effect, just make it effect score only”. You do realize that the “server with larger numbers”, in these theorems made by your side, still get the Bloodlust buff and still stay in far lead with the point doubler. The only reason I can possibly see for your solution is that once again it’s more about GvG and that stats don’t offbalance those ‘special fights behind the Windmill’. Am I right on that assumption?

I can see right through all these arguments and it comes down to ego about what certain players feel they’re entitled to and want the gameplay tailored to their own personal playstyle. That’s not how the game is designed or will be designed. Instead it’ll be designed directly in the way that A.Net wants it to based on their vision of their own game. And If you don’t like it and can’t enjoy it in a fun manner, the only option is to go find something else that may find you fun.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

The thing is Devon, that what you’re failing to see is that the buff will only work when numbers are even or close. Its totally unfair having to fight against 3 times your WvW map population with this buff on them.

If you’re actually playing your game you should know that this happens like 15hours a day.

The first step to balance things out is to make the actual buff only affect 1 border map no all the 4 maps.
This is the only fair solution i find if you definitely want to mantain the stat buff as it is.

Savoy.6824:

“After a careful reevaluation of orbs of power we have decided to remove them from WvW in an upcoming build. As implemented, orbs tend to strengthen teams who are already winning and make it even more difficult for underdog teams to fight back”

This was posted by Habib Loew.6239, one of your own designers.

^This sums it up perfectly.

Siphaed.9235:

Natronix.9827:

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

But people dont care for things like this! People care for FUN fights, these must be equal or close to it, those that every move make a difference in the out come not some silly extra stats due to more coverage on another map

Are you even slightly aware of sPvP? Because that’s where fights are “equal or close to it”. In WvW from DAY#1 it was never about equality, nor will it ever be. The guy you’re fighting could have a thief buddy come up and backstab you; he could be in all Exotic gear while you’re in all greens; you could be level 80 with Talent Point stats and he could be upscaled from level 10 without any. You see my point, right?

WvW is not about individuals or small groups attempts at ‘even fights’ of 10vs10 or 20vs20 [behind the Windmill, taking up queue space]. WvW is about server participation as a whole, and efforts at a “world war”. Getting the nuke/buff is basically getting a key power to win the war. …..do what you can to stop your enemy for obtaining that power and instead obtain it for yourself.

style.6173:

Personally, I think the bloodlust (horrible name btw since that prefers to power in the game) should do the following:

1. Double wxp gained while the buff is active
2. Double karma gained while the buff is active
3. Double magic find while the buff is active
4. Double points earned while the buff is active

Of those, 4 is really the most exciting. It means that a server that is behind could focus on holding the buff in order to help with a comeback.

A bit hypocritical that people saying that the “Buff will cause snowball effect, just make it effect score only”. You do realize that the “server with larger numbers”, in these theorems made by your side, still get the Bloodlust buff and still stay in far lead with the point doubler.

I can see right through all these arguments and it comes down to ego about what certain players feel they’re entitled to and want the gameplay tailored to their own personal playstyle. That’s not how the game is designed or will be designed. Instead it’ll be designed directly in the way that A.Net wants it to based on their vision of their own game. And If you don’t like it and can’t enjoy it in a fun manner, the only option is to go find something else that may find you fun.

-Nothing hypocritical about the snowball effect, if you even played this game 10 months ago there was snowballing even amongst T1 servers and it will continue to do so.

-When your server is getting steamrolled by T1 zergs and 10 people camping the nodes, goodluck holding a point for two minutes to cap it without a zerg.
-You blindly defend “Anets Vision” of the game when clearly giving stat bonuses to an orb buff was anticompetitive and demoralized servers with population imbalances.
-Due the league system and servers being cycled around deliberately, every matchup will be imbalanced for the most part, even the difference between number 2 and 3 and 2 and 4 is translates into one server ticking for 350-400 plus for hours and hours, and 70-100k point leads.

you know what the real solution to this bloodlust buff is?

make the bloodlust buff npc champs, siege damage, gate/wall hp and defenses for the server that holds the points.

this way, people that care about wvw points will have a reason to take and hold the points, without causing an imbalance of stats.

I hope Colin Johanson is reading all those things about Bloodlust and hear our voice. He is my hope.

Istaf.1953:

Okay I’ll bite. To my knowledge I’m the only person from RET in that thread. Yet my whole guild seems to also hate it.

That street goes both ways.

And how many percentage of the WvW community does that guild make up?
1? 0,5?
The point is that it will be more or less impossible to truthfully claim to know what the majority of the community want, since the majority will never make their voices heard. One can however assume that the majority of those that makes their voices heard are those that are unhappy.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

The only thing people value in WvW is combat strength?!? That is an overly simplistic way to look at WvW.

As for this being “Controversial”! It’s not controversial to us. It’s simply a bad idea – one that has a proven history as a bad idea. It there’s any controversy here, it’s about why this buff is being reinstated at the risk of further imbalancing WvW match-ups instead of providing some incentive that at worst a neutral effect on balance in WvW match-ups.

There are many types of rewards that would be worth fighting over and which will not aggravate the imbalance in WvW match-ups. People value loot, prestige, convenience, … the list goes on.

We’ve explained why giving a buff that increases the combat effectiveness of the leading team is a bad idea for WvW.

If this was PvP, a buff like this would be fine, for the following reasons:

1. PvP has several mechanisms designed specifically to ensure teams are of equal power (excluding skill) when they take the field.
2. A lot (a huge lot) of work has gone in to ensuring balance in PvP
3. PvP matches are short, so the maximum duration of any reward taht alters the balance is is equally short.

Compare this with WvW:

1. In WvW, servers do not field WvW equivalent numbers of WvW troops nor are they of equivalent power (uplevels/L80s/L80s with full ascended gear)
2. There is no way to balance WvW capability at the server level (the only mechanism is rankings and the difference in WvW capability is often significant even between adjacent places on the ranking board)
3. WvW match-ups are long, so imbalanced match-ups affect WvW play for days or weeks.

Lets face it, most WvW match-ups are unbalanced.

_Oh, what the kitten, … I shouldn’t have to explain WvW to you. _

WvW is very different to PvP, and for a range of reasons that should be obvious to you, imbalance between servers is a serious problem (which impacts participation in WvW). All of this means introducing a change that will aggravate imbalance in unequal match-ups (which, lets face it, is most of them) is bad for WvW.

Don’t introduce a buff that will exagerate the differences in unblanced WvW match-ups – that’s really dumb (by dumb, I mean bad for WvW participation and enjoyment).

And please don’t try and hide behind the fact that this buff is included as part of range of other changes. That those changes may be great still doesn’t make up for the fact that the Bloodlust reward is bad news for WvW.

You don’t need to use the bloodlust buff. Use another buff. Give the holders of the buff increased magic find or something.

If you need to get WvW’ers to play the new WvW content, then give them something else they’d want. But don’t, don’t, don’t make our server match-ups even worse than they are now.

If you really, really want people to fight over the buff, then forget bloodlust; just have it give a 0.001% chance of dropping a precursor from a WvW loot bag.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

Typically I have nothing but good things to say about the choices you make however this is so half baked its not even funny. You’re very clearly trying to appease people who like to roam/small scale pvp by making smaller objectives that they can fight over, but giving a stat boost is so misguided.

Instead of creating a smaller map akin to classic battlegrounds you’ve gone an created something that is very clearly targeted to the crowd in question but have also gone and screwed them over.

This is just poor time management and game design.

DevonCarver.5370:

The stat boost, while controversial, is there to give the buff meaning in the context of the general WvW battle. Providing boosts like %WXP, etc. don’t have impact in fights against other sides, they are just a nice bonus for you. The stat boost and the points for finishing players mean that not only do you want to have the buff, but you don’t want your opponents to have it.

At least make it only apply to the map you’re on, so that you have some chance of controlling whether the buff is applied to your or another server, not your (quite possibly non-existent) team mates on the other borderlands.

A +50 buff to all stats is worth fighting for, but it’s maybe possible to overcome. A +150 buff isn’t.

The new objectives sound great. The reward for them is bad for WvW.

Solution: use a different reward! How hard can that be?

Vena.8436:

Can we just stop all the deceptive foreplay at this point? Let’s just say it the way we want to say it: “I want buff X because it won’t imbalance my preferred gameplay Y. I don’t care if it imbalances Z.”

X = anything except global stat buff (open to almost any option)
Y = balanced non-snowbally game play
Z = snowbally gameplay

Or

X = stat buff
Y = snowball gameplay favoring the larger team
Z = outnumbered team, 1v1s.

Not symmetrical at all. Maybe it’s just you deceiving yourself. This buff will really only be interesting when two teams are queuing the map (and fighting each other). It will also help karma trains as the offensive force will already have established control of the buffs before they hit anything. The rest of the time it will just be annoying.

Vena.8436:

150 stats imbalances everything evenly; siege defender imbalances one thing greatly or plays to the “don’t touch what I like, touch this other thing”.

That is the bias.

Why would it imbalance sieging greatly? Every single piece of siege has been buffed depending what mastery you go in. If, for example, you get a total 15% reduction for controlling the capture points on every borderland I don’t see how things will be ‘greatly unbalanced.’ You’ll still take a lot more AC damage than you would prior to the AC buff, which was a whopping 80% damage increase and you can still add 25% on top of that from the mastery. If anything, it might change up the Siege Wars that a lot of people aren’t all that interested in. Yes, I might be biased, but I believe some added siege protection would be inconvenient for far less people than adding 150 to all stats.

Vena.8436:

This statement can be stated and slated against any buff that has value. Some people like having siege in open field fights, some people don’t. Some people like “structured PvP”, some people don’t. The list goes on.

I doubt it would matter much for people that find sitting on ACs fun. They are so easy to come by, you can still build tons of them and they will still deal plenty of damage for pressuring the attackers. And if you are so eager to build ACs in the open, I don’t see why that enemy taking some reduced damage would stop you. If anything, it might stimulate you to neutralize those capture points instead of sitting on your precious AC all day.

Just make it 2 points for a stomp per orb , the buff lasts for 5 mins for only the people that actually caped the point. BAM

I don’t mind the stat boost that much, compared to the old orb mechanic.
This way the loosing Server has atleast a chance to get the buff, because they don’t have to take down a keep.(And the winning server won’t have a whole Zerg capturing and defending these buffs)
Maybe my opinion is a little bit biased, considering that I actually liked the orbs.
They allowed for some very fun fights, aswell as giving a pretty epic goal for your server to achieve.
luckily I was on one of the servers that had a nice stable population and could stand their ground against even stronger servers.

NO
to the buff, it ruins the whole wvw and the solid core of wvw, add anything like wxp or magic find stuff but dont do it like its planed, anet is killing wvw

No! plz dont let the orbs affect stats! I dont care about Wxp or Karma, but dont let it affect other stats!

Dillon.3821:

No! plz dont let the orbs affect stats! I dont care about Wxp or Karma, but dont let it affect other stats!

The fact you don’t care about karma and WXP is precisely why they went for a stat buff. If you don’t care about the buff, you won’t fight over the buff.