Guild Wars 2

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

* I don’t like the stealth mechanic in this game.
* I don’t think the stealth mechanic itself is broken or completely bad.
* I think the problem is the "Shadow Arts" trait line.
* And that Thief doesn’t have any other reliable condition cleanse.

If I play my guardian, and I meet a Thief and engage it, and discover that it runs SA. I just stop fighting and walk away. I’ve so many times walked from North Camp all the way back to one of the south spawns, while the thief keeps trying th harass me, while I keep cleansing off his condi’s, heals, blocks, invulnerability, and otherwise slowly negate most of his damage, while I just walk back to spawn, because it is faster and less boring than bothering to fight against him.

Haven’t met many thieves that can kill me on my way from north camp back to spawn yet -_-’

my opinion would be that while stealthed, you should still be able to see your numbers if you hit them. That way that even while stealthed you have a chance to still harrass them. And they have to use more skill about where their positioning is while stealthed.

Thieves can’t 1 shot you from stealth. Mesmers can. I have a bigger problem with that.

It really isn’t that simple once you stop using Shadow arts, which makes stealth more forgiving. You can’t really one shot either way, as a thief.

Stealth is very hard to balance in wvw, in pvp it is actually a very balanced ability in that it is kept in check by conquest mode. All the stealth shenanigans you want to pull can have a very heavy cost but in wvw that opportunity cost is just not there to counterbalance it and is just very frustrating and unfun.

With the new pvp map though in HOTS not being conquest though we might see some of the balance bleed through to wvw since anet does not really care about wvw balance.

My objection isn’t to stealth – its to the worst tab target/autotarget system I’ve ever seen in 14 years of MMOs. When a thief stealths I don’t need my attack focus shifting to a gerbil in the adjacent zip code!

Nike.2631:

My objection isn’t to stealth – its to the worst tab target/autotarget system I’ve ever seen in 14 years of MMOs. When a thief stealths I don’t need my attack focus shifting to a gerbil in the adjacent zip code!

Autotargeting ON?
That can cause pretty bad situations, that’s why I’m not using it even on my ranged characters (on meele it’s the worst, random leaps.. ).

mako.2431:

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

Do you know, even Square Enix mmo Ff14 new upcoming profession Ninja (Steatlth Master) stealth will not be like this. Yes a Ninja Profession who Master of Stealth will not be able to do any of this.

In result, Guild Wars 2 thief stealth is problematic because Stealth is not Invisible, Stealth is not Invulnerable, Stealth is Not Immunity, Stealth is Not Control Time, Stealth is not Everything…that is why stealth is broken.

You can not use 1 word to mean everything, You can not use 1 mechanic to do everything, You can not use 1 skill to do everything. That is why Guild Wars 2 thief stealth design need a new design.

It is very bad design because it make other class not challenge it and make other class not fun fighting it.

Class should have more ways:diversity to play but make it play only 1 way is very boring. Example: it is like driving your car to do everything all the time.. it get boring. Imagine staying inside your house all the time to do everything.. would be boring same too.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Thieves can’t 1 shot you from stealth. Mesmers can. I have a bigger problem with that.

lol…. Thieves have infinitely more stealth than mesmers. For a mesmer to 1 shot you from stealth, youd have to be pretty kitten glassy(a thief or another mesmer) and he’d have to blow torch 4 with mirror images, gs 2, mindwrack and mindstab. They’d all have to crit as well. Thieves go stealth and only have to press 1 skill to land a 12k backstab with sigil procs. And they can restealth incredibly easily. Theres no comparison between the two really.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Thieves can’t 1 shot you from stealth. Mesmers can. I have a bigger problem with that.

I have never been 1 shot by a mesmer. And I am very glassy. But maybe they simply don’t catch me, for I am a mesmer myself^^

EDIT:
Also, if the Mesmer 1 shot you, he blew a lot of cool downs to do so.

I run 26006 on my thief, I refuse to ever run SA since it’s a giant crutch. If I run into a complete condi cancer roamer I just go 06206.

funassistant.6589:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

It really isn’t that simple once you stop using Shadow arts, you can’t really one shot either way, as a thief.

Maybe you worded it wrong or I didn’t understand correctly. Shadow Arts doesn’t increase your power by any way? So when you stop using it, you’ll be able to spec into more offensive lines.

SA thieves are brainless players that can play like idiots and still not be punished for their mistakes. Makes for flat gameplay.

It is counterproductive to call anyone a brainless player. It is annoying to fight SA thieves, agreed, but that doesn’t mean the player behind that is brain dead or a bad player in any way. It is a very effective roaming build. Why would a thief deliberately limit himself. If the game offers the perfect setup for a certain task, why not use it? (btw. I don’t play thief myself )

@OP:
It would interest me, with what class you usually roam and encounter thieves?

funassistant.6589:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

It really isn’t that simple once you stop using Shadow arts, you can’t really one shot either way, as a thief.

Maybe you worded it wrong or I didn’t understand correctly. Shadow Arts doesn’t increase your power by any way? So when you stop using it, you’ll be able to spec into more offensive lines.

SA thieves are brainless players that can play like idiots and still not be punished for their mistakes. Makes for flat gameplay.

I wouldn’t call them brainless , but lower risk with high reward, more easier for them to get away with mistakes. It does increase power, in terms of might stacks.

SA thieves are the most boring to face and the sad part is that SA players actual thinks they are skilled players when using that, It’s really sad and quite laughable.

Let’s make a deal. I’ll stop roaming with Shadow Arts….if every other roamer in WvW stops using condition builds. And celestial builds. And every other build that we consider ‘cheese’.

It’s…not gonna happen.

I’m a thief. I’m going to fight with the most underhanded tactics I got. If my opponent won’t fight honorably, why should I?

Conditions aren’t cheese. I even roam without +duration food most of the time with my condi shatter build. Most people, who lose against that, just behave like scrubs (and many of them use even -duration food). Running and AAing around with torment and confusion stacks without actually hitting me, while I am visible…

Without stealth thiefs cannot do anything, at all. It’s cheesy but what are they suppose to do?
And I laugh at thiefs that call condi cheese, when the most old stinking cheese is the condi thief build.

Same old crap, you are blaming the SA tree for 1 extra second of stealth, per stealth ? or are you saying its because of shadow rejuvenation. I run 4 points in SA in wvw simply because i get free 200 armour, a condi clear and the other trait i can juggle with master of deceptions/cloak in shadows or what ever. that leaves me 4 points for the power line and 6 for trickery. in fact full acro is just as “brain dead” as you call it because you can evade for days (i know no 1 has mentioned acro – just saying)

Learn how to counter them. Aoe, heavy condi, CC, keep on pressuring them, there’s nothing impossible, even if they have many ways to disengage. A thief who’s not killing anything and always flee and come back for 2-3 shots is quite useless, isn’t he ?

I’ve personally been surprised with the stealth mechanics when I started playing the game, but after all, it is different from other games, and I believe that’s a good thing. I now like it a lot, and don’t want to see it disappear because few people don’t manage to fight thieves and think it’s broken… Every class has something powerful I guess.

Thief is really weak without stealth… apart from blinds it’s pretty much only thing he has unless he is running sword evasion build.

mako.2431:

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

Well, Colin mentioned that gw2 china development took a bunch of time and resources so maybe now they will work on some of these terrible profession and combat mechanics.

As a necromancer I have little issues with thieves. I probe their stealth with marks if i see one trigger I drop what is essentially the bomb on them…

Mark 2
Mark 3
Mark 4
Q
Scepter 2
Scepter/Dagger 5
T
Deathshroud 5
Deathshroud 4

And by then, there is usually a downed thief throwing crap at me.

Sure they purge one condition every 3 seconds in stealth, well I apply a metric ton of conditions and usually burn through that cleanse

Also some may have noticed I didn’t use fifth mark, that’s for breathing room if he managed to survive the bomb,
Mark 5 fear
T
Deathshroud 3 fear
Deathshroud 2 gap close bleed chill boon purge.

It’s interestingly enough about baiting them into a position where you can nuke their squishy little bodies.

I used to main a Shadow Arts condition thief so I know exactly where they are weak.

Arikyali.5804:

Let’s make a deal. I’ll stop roaming with Shadow Arts….if every other roamer in WvW stops using condition builds. And celestial builds. And every other build that we consider ‘cheese’.

It’s…not gonna happen.

I’m a thief. I’m going to fight with the most underhanded tactics I got. If my opponent won’t fight honorably, why should I?

What’s a celestial build? I’m a staff ele and I just use the following skills:

• Glphy of Elemental Harmony
• Arcane Wave
• Signet of Air/Conjure Lightning Hammer
• Glyph of Lesser Elementals
• Conjure Fiery Greatsword/Glyph of Elementals

And of course the regular Staff 1-5 skills…

Shinji.2063:

Stealth is very hard to balance in wvw, in pvp it is actually a very balanced ability in that it is kept in check by conquest mode.

Actually a big reason stealth is more balance in spvp is revealed last 4s, which means thieves can’t go back into stealth that quickly unlike how it is in wvw which revealed is only 3 seconds. That extra second allows more opportunity to counter play.

Doon.2364:

Shinji.2063:

Stealth is very hard to balance in wvw, in pvp it is actually a very balanced ability in that it is kept in check by conquest mode.

Actually a big reason stealth is more balance in spvp is revealed last 4s, which means thieves can’t go back into stealth that quickly unlike how it is in wvw which revealed is only 3 seconds. That extra second allows more opportunity to counter play.

Doon.2364:

Shinji.2063:

Stealth is very hard to balance in wvw, in pvp it is actually a very balanced ability in that it is kept in check by conquest mode.

Actually a big reason stealth is more balance in spvp is revealed last 4s, which means thieves can’t go back into stealth that quickly unlike how it is in wvw which revealed is only 3 seconds. That extra second allows more opportunity to counter play.

+ they move slower, meaning they can’t reposition thenselves that easily
+ you can’t cap points.
+ playing SA meaning that you will drag the fight as long as you need to win the fight. And dragging a fight for minutes on sPvP means that you are not doing your own role for minutes as well.

Alas, overal opinion of stealth is always the same:
begginer players always conplain about it,
olders players don’t care about it anymore and just kill the thief.

BTW, on Ragnarok you could toggle invisibility at will and get a speed boost while doing it. Assassin was still one of the worst classes in that game.

Stealth is one of the thief’s active defenses. If you remove stealth it would cripple the class’ build variety.
Do you really want to fight nothing but evade thieves? I’ve had to deal with that crap in spvp and it’s not easy to deal with at all.

Stealth is actually easily countered most applications last about 3-4 seconds so the window where they have to do something is pretty short otherwise they’ve wasted a initiative. The only exception is Shadow Refugee but usually bombing the area can make a thief run away or die.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Thieves can’t 1 shot you from stealth. Mesmers can. I have a bigger problem with that.

I main a shatter Mes, I’m no pro but I can say without a doubt that only the most glassy, upleveled and new Ele, Thief or another Mes might be downed in what you call a “one shot.” To be precise we have to pop 3-4 CDs to do that with dead-on timing, not just one lazy button press like a Thief.

There is no comparison.

mako.2431:

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

How would you feel if they left all the mechanics the same except you don’t lose target when they go in stealth?
(technically this would be an auto-reacquire of target after leaving stealth, so (like now) you can’t fire directly at stealthed target).

Yeah the stealth in this game with the thief is way over the top, has been from day one, but they don’t seem to want to change it for whatever reason. Personally a certain game with a certain rogue has the stealth done like it should be, and if it wasn’t $15 a month …

Svarty.8019:

mako.2431:

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

How would you feel if they left all the mechanics the same except you don’t lose target when they go in stealth?
(technically this would be an auto-reacquire of target after leaving stealth, so (like now) you can’t fire directly at stealthed target).

I would take anything at this point, theives are stupid op. If you play this style I fel sorry for you, obviously you can’t play without easy mode advantages. no respect at all, never. When you win a fight it is 100% because you are exploiting an overpowered class.

kelman.9451:

Yeah the stealth in this game with the thief is way over the top, has been from day one, but they don’t seem to want to change it for whatever reason. Personally a certain game with a certain rogue has the stealth done like it should be, and if it wasn’t $15 a month …

I play S/D thief, so…yes please! I’d love to have permanent stealth to roam around before popping out unexpectedly without being seen from max draw distance!

kelman.9451:

Yeah the stealth in this game with the thief is way over the top, has been from day one, but they don’t seem to want to change it for whatever reason. Personally a certain game with a certain rogue has the stealth done like it should be, and if it wasn’t $15 a month …

i know 8

I despise thieves as it’s just so dang annoying in general. Most of the thief community I’ve seen in PvP are trolls, and WvW they just look for easy kills and run if they can’t one or two shot you, ….not all thieves are like that from what I’ve seen but most are. Thieves that use a evasion build I have fun fighting and will even let live in WvW after I down em and they bow back after they get back up.

However, as others said they are pretty much balanced around the stealth mechanic. To change stealth is a direct nerf or buff to the thief class while being a minor nerf or buff to mesmer or engie.

funassistant.6589:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

It really isn’t that simple once you stop using Shadow arts, you can’t really one shot either way, as a thief.

Maybe you worded it wrong or I didn’t understand correctly. Shadow Arts doesn’t increase your power by any way? So when you stop using it, you’ll be able to spec into more offensive lines.

SA thieves are brainless players that can play like idiots and still not be punished for their mistakes. Makes for flat gameplay.

Considering that SA builds are in most cases either backstab builds or P/D condi, that 5pt gm minor in SA actually makes backstab hit just as much or even more than investing those points in DA. Condi build also benefits from the might.

Why would those builds invest in offensive trait line if they get superb survability of SA and high dmg too?

l2p

In my oppinion, I think stealth shouldn’t even heal period, the heal stealth is one thing, but when they can heal with EVER stealth and then they can use weapons/armor Runes/sigs to heal and stealth altogether.

also a stealth bug all stealther classes are using to “finish” you, how to hell are they able to stake you when a guardian clearly can push you 10 feet away when you lack stability, and then still be able to stake you? whats more is they Im hearing rumors that they apperently can stake you from almost 10 yards away. make it to where you actually have to be traying to climb on top of the player in order to finish them, not from a foot away nor 10 yards.

and ANET, you have an obligation to make sure no one is toying with your admin rights. Cut out ALL possable third party systems. yes you know exactly what Im talking about, from all normal player systems.

Reviera.5183:

In my oppinion, I think stealth shouldn’t even heal period, the heal stealth is one thing, but when they can heal with EVER stealth and then they can use weapons/armor Runes/sigs to heal and stealth altogether.

also a stealth bug all stealther classes are using to “finish” you, how to hell are they able to stake you when a guardian clearly can push you 10 feet away when you lack stability, and then still be able to stake you? whats more is they Im hearing rumors that they apperently can stake you from almost 10 yards away. make it to where you actually have to be traying to climb on top of the player in order to finish them, not from a foot away nor 10 yards.

and ANET, you have an obligation to make sure no one is toying with your admin rights. Cut out ALL possable third party systems. yes you know exactly what Im talking about, from all normal player systems.

Other classes can use those runes/sigils etc. as well. And guess what, even other classes have access to additional heals specific to their profession.

So cos thieves have no stability except for their elite, they shouldn’t be able to stomp anyone? When other class uses utility/whatever trick they have to stomp, it’s skilled play but for thieves it’s a BUG? lmao

Sorel.4870:

l2p

Always L2p for other class? except for thief class

Stealth is kind of broken, but you learn to adapt and deal with it.

Its clear to anyone who has done any roaming in wvw, however, that shadow-arts is blatantly over-powered. I laugh at any shadow-arts thief I ever see die, because you have to terribly over-extend to actually get killed.

Here is to hoping that stronghold makes shadow-arts thieves relevant to pvp, so the trait-line can FINALLY be balanced. To this point it has been ignored b/c conquest mechanics make the build poor. Without conquest, I think the cancer will become more apparent to the pvp balance team.

Warning: every bad thief who runs shadow arts will cry SO LOUD if and when they eventually nerf/fix that trait line. Prepare yourselves for that day.

I’m finding the more I play wells-necromancer the less I mind thieves .

Thieves are the only class in the game that make me not want to play PvP/WvW. They can turn the game from fun and challenging to unfairly one-sided.

There needs to be a cap on stealth outside of PvE, like a max of 3-4 seconds for every 10.

Stealth is an extremely unfun mechanic to play against, in WvW.

In SPVP, being stealthed is an opportunity cost; you’re trading time capping/contesting/etc for evasion. This is fine.

In WvW however, there really isn’t such a cost associated with it. A thief can basically harass another solo non-thief with impunity. If they start to lose, they immediately retreat, stealth, recover, and return at full health in short order.

Their high mobility, means that it’s difficult for their opponent to disengage if the thief doesn’t want to let them.

I have seen many instances of a SINGLE thief evading 2-3 players with ease. I’ve had plenty of times where a lone thief caught up in a 1v1 gets rolled upon by a zerg, and while they do generally die (sometimes they still get away!) it takes MULTIPLE players flailing around in an area to finally bring them down with lucky hits against the invisible foe.

It should not take 5+ people to counter a single thief using stealth.

SoulSin.5682:

Doon.2364:

Shinji.2063:

Stealth is very hard to balance in wvw, in pvp it is actually a very balanced ability in that it is kept in check by conquest mode.

Actually a big reason stealth is more balance in spvp is revealed last 4s, which means thieves can’t go back into stealth that quickly unlike how it is in wvw which revealed is only 3 seconds. That extra second allows more opportunity to counter play.

+ they move slower, meaning they can’t reposition thenselves that easily
+ you can’t cap points.
+ playing SA meaning that you will drag the fight as long as you need to win the fight. And dragging a fight for minutes on sPvP means that you are not doing your own role for minutes as well.

Alas, overal opinion of stealth is always the same:
begginer players always conplain about it,
olders players don’t care about it anymore and just kill the thief.

BTW, on Ragnarok you could toggle invisibility at will and get a speed boost while doing it. Assassin was still one of the worst classes in that game.

I’ve played GW2 since launch, and my main is Mesmer and Ranger, I still not agree with the stealth mechanic. While Mesmers can generate clones that supposed to confuse other players, Anet nerfed confusion and make sure your down state there’s a giant red arrow pointing above your head to make sure you get stomped. How about the same assist to target thieves in stealth before and after, let’s make it fair.

I don’t understand why people complain about the healing in stealth. They make it seem likes its completely healing the Thief each time they stealth.

-It does ~325 hp per second. A normal stealth skill gives 4s of stealth.
-If the Thief attacks from stealth, they will only get max 3s of heals, so roughly 1khp – less than 8% of their total hp.
-If they stack their stealth and sit in stealth without attacking and gain that ~10s of stealth and recover around 3.5khp – then why are you just sitting there waiting idly for them to reveal themselves?

So what are you doing for those long periods of your opponent being stealthed, just twiddling your thumbs and waiting? Because the only reasonable explanation as to why you’re complaining is due to the longer-stealths. If not, how can 8% hp every 6 seconds even be noticeable with how little hp those Thieves have?

mako.2431:

No class should be able to attack, stealth when you attack them back, heal and clease while stealthed, then come out of steath and reattack you, rinse, repeat until you are dead.

I have no problem with thieves having escapability, none at all. My problem is in and out of stealth fighting bullspit. Enough, peroid. I don’t know of any other game that allows such crap. They should hit like a truck, they should be able to sneak around, they should be able to poof and escape AFTER their kill or to get out of a tough fight….but they should not be able to repeatedly re-stealth in the middle of a fight to heal and cleanse over and over, it is absolutely absurd.

/rant off….let the flaming begin

Sorry about your anger.

Every class has it’s ‘perks’. This is the thief’s perk.

I think it’s kind of absurd that necros can add 18k HPs to themselves with death shroud. Or how rangers have just as much burst at 1500 range than I do in melee range.

It all works out.

Reviera.5183:

also a stealth bug all stealther classes are using to “finish” you, how to hell are they able to stake you when a guardian clearly can push you 10 feet away when you lack stability, and then still be able to stake you? whats more is they Im hearing rumors that they apperently can stake you from almost 10 yards away. make it to where you actually have to be traying to climb on top of the player in order to finish them, not from a foot away nor 10 yards.

… Are you sure it’s a bug?

Thieves can use Shadowstep to initiate a stomp, port away, then port back when it’s about to land. They can also cause your disrupting attack to miss by blinding you.

Mesmers can do the same with Portal or Phase Retreat + Blink. They also have invulnerability via Diversion.

Rangers have decent access to stability and quickness.

Paulie.6215:

Sorry about your anger.

Every class has it’s ‘perks’. This is the thief’s perk.

I think it’s kind of absurd that necros can add 18k HPs to themselves with death shroud. Or how rangers have just as much burst at 1500 range than I do in melee range.

It all works out.

A necro who has lost to you just cannot flee. It doesn’t matter how much HP they have, it’s literally impossible for a necro to flee. That second HP bar doesn’t buy them that, that second HP bar is an alternative for a class that has no access to other survival skills, such as vigor for more dodge, or invulns, blocks etc. Anyone who thinks necro is OP based on that bar doesn’t know what necro don’t have access to and don’t understand the role of such a bar.
That initial burst from rangers isn’t very difficult to avoid. Most classes will be content just dodging or blocking through it while closing the gap.
The real and only problem with thieves isn’t something like being OP in actual combat. They’re not. The problem is the trolling with troll builds. Thieves can be built in such a way in wvwvw that they can pretty much harass you across the whole map and there is nothing you can do about it. They won’t kill you because they’re bad and the troll builds made to be highly resilient can’t kill anything but every time they see they’re losing against you they can just disengage into getting out of combat, wait for all their cd, initiative etc and then come back and harass again, and again, and again. It’s never interesting to fight the same losing idiot over and over and over while roaming around.
I’ve had it happen a few times for 10+ minutes where the same thief would engage me again, and again, and again, and lose every time, disengage, I’d see on my bar that I’m out of combat so they were ooc too and then they come back and continue that pointless harassment again.

It’s not a problem in TPVP because anyone who’d run one of those troll builds, or just run with anything in SA is such a detriment to their team that you don’t even need to pay attention to them.