Guild Wars 2

Cactus.2710:

So let me get this straight. Two thieves join together to alternately stealth each other, gang up to “focus” kill you while your 18 other buddies don’t do anything to help you, and you think thieves need to be nerfed as a result? I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that.

18 players should have been able to chain stun the hell out of those two thieves who had to be right on top of you to kill you. Stealth or not, if you were dying, EVERYBODY had to know pretty much exactly where they were.

These kinds of lame kitten posts are getting pretty old …

so you must be a bad player, are you? in the current state of the game, its really easy with two thiefs to focusburst one down and escape to reengage the next squishy one.

or do you only know your HS button?

Time for another pointless anecdote.

I’ve been levelling a thief in WvW using only the gear that drops. I’ve also played guard, mes, ele and a thief vs other thiefs.

Honestly I think thiefs have a few too many good toys, like weakness and cripple on the swrd auto attack which I use extensively after teleporting to my target to root them. Ya they might have an edge over some of the other classes.

I believe stealth has nothing to do with what makes thiefs good.

I also believe that it’s a massive l2p issue if you’re losing 2v1 vs any class let alone 20v2.

Jine.6130:

As i wrote above. 5 vs 1 was the greatest difference in number. Everyone was in there by himself at the beginning. No groups or guilds.
The place was at the entrance to the dark part. Rigth at the fire where you get those torches.
Apperently on those walls you can stealth.

Well my opinion stands…. perma stealth is just a broken mechanic. Get rid of it and let the Thiefs adapt to that….

Clues from your information:

- thieves chose the place of the fight.
-Both thieves were extremely good and skillful players.
- They were extremely well coordinated.
- their builds were specialized in trolling groups of people.

2 top thieves with perfect builds well coordinated in a chosen place for the fight against 5 average random discoordinated.
Easy result, do not disturb us crying when you were brought to a trap and did not even realize.
Average players can not expect win against coordinated expert players.

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve Shadows

Theives aren’t that hard 3 backstab theives just make my engi giggle anything else and I just ignore

As I said before 1 player beating several players in a row -some of them at the same time- is more about that player tailored to duel/roam and fueled by experience and motivation than about a particular class better than other.

I was watching yesterday some vids involving a single warrior fighting against 1+ players, some of them thieves, and having no problem against the use of stealth; even more: sometimes in terms of mobility and disengage they can outmach a thieve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BboMWbNP-eU

Buran.3796:

[cut]

impossible, my friend… that must be a thief disguised as a warrior, because only thieves are OP and must be brought “to a normal level”

:)

I did some research on that topic. Yes it was d/p. My bad sorry for that. Really thought i saw a sword. Maybe was the second weaponset or just a big big dagger

Pistol 5 and Heartseeker leapfinisher. I also learned that i maybe can force the thief to hit me if i go in the circle of the blind or at least near enough to get hit with the heartseeker.

As for the 5 vs 1. I didn´t knew anyone who was in the jp at that time. It was more everybody was alone in there. There was no fighting going on in there, just a few single ones and the thieves.

Well sure was a frustrating evening for me and a few others.

My opinion didn´t change on this topic. The stealth mechanic as it stands now in the game is broken.

It´s just plain frustrating fighting a thief, bring him almost down and then he disapears. A few seconds later, not enough time to get back my health, he opens again.

Well most of the time i survive this because i run a bunker build in wvw but it´s still frustrating because i know i can´t kill him. I simply have not enough burst and cc in my build to do so.

There is another Topic about that in the WvW discussion so i guess that might be the better place to discuss this.

Thx for your help… and flame

Please take away my stealth (thus having to give me protection or aegis) so I have a reason to slot damage utilities instead of having to waste three slots on stealth skills. You think thieves melt faces now?

Ashlov.3819:

The easy solution is for ANet to give every class a mechanic that’s equally frustrating to Thieves. Then we can all go around trolling and griefing each other.

^^ That! Pls Anet give us that..pls pls pls

Jine.6130:

I did some research on that topic. Yes it was d/p. My bad sorry for that. Really thought i saw a sword. Maybe was the second weaponset or just a big big dagger

Pistol 5 and Heartseeker leapfinisher. I also learned that i maybe can force the thief to hit me if i go in the circle of the blind or at least near enough to get hit with the heartseeker.

As for the 5 vs 1. I didn´t knew anyone who was in the jp at that time. It was more everybody was alone in there. There was no fighting going on in there, just a few single ones and the thieves.

Well sure was a frustrating evening for me and a few others.

My opinion didn´t change on this topic. The stealth mechanic as it stands now in the game is broken.

It´s just plain frustrating fighting a thief, bring him almost down and then he disapears. A few seconds later, not enough time to get back my health, he opens again.

Well most of the time i survive this because i run a bunker build in wvw but it´s still frustrating because i know i can´t kill him. I simply have not enough burst and cc in my build to do so.

There is another Topic about that in the WvW discussion so i guess that might be the better place to discuss this.

Thx for your help… and flame

The problem is, you are complaining about how the class was tought.
Thief’s concept is “hit and run”, in and out of combat, and that’s exactly what those 2 thieves were doing.
Backstab, evade, stealth, backstab, evade, stealth… d/p is a cheesy build and against unexperienced opponents it’s very effective but there are downsides: the combo is really initative consuming and a CC in the right moment can be the death of the thief.
I’m not saying it’s easy to counter, i’m just saying it is counterable.
Daze/stun/knockback/knockdown/fear the thief between black powder and heartseeker or use a stealth disruptor trap.

So, two thieves found a place where they have a terrain advantage in the EB JP and started ganking those who passed by. Well for starters I’m willing to bet though they kills 20 players, it wasn’t all at once. It’d be difficult to keep 20 people in one clump to attack them at once, and it’s not a huge feat if it was a series of small battle, you said it went on for 2 plus hours, which only re-enforces my claim.
You also seem to lack an understanding of how D/P gets stealth and how x/D gets stealth. I wager you heard the uproar from when there was a thief could stack stealth by using x/D 5 Cloak and Dagger on the walls of enemy structures and figured thieves can stealth off all walls. This isn’t the case, the CnD bug was patched, and it only worked on the walls of enemy structures, there’s nothing to CnD off of in the EB JP but enemy players.
Those red circles you saw were x/P 5 Black Powder. A smoke field. D/P thieves use the Leap finisher effect of thier D/x 2 Heartseeker, on the Black Powder smoke field to yield the Stealth combo effect.
All in all, your lack of understanding, and facts about the event you’ve put forward show this wasn’t all that impressive of a feat. There’s loads of camping spots in the EB JP, and even a single player in a place that complimented thier class’ abilities could do just as well.

There’s no counter to stealth.

A pet should be able to attack a thief in and out of stealth (they have good smell) .

At the moment there’s no risk for thiefs, if they’re losing a fight, they just run away. It’s impossible to kill one.

It’s not only a troll class, it takes the fun out of the game.

Jine.6130:

Hello,
Two Thiefs ganked about 20 ppl in the EB JP. Nobody could kill them. Perma stealth and insane damage. Both were s/p.

……..

akjb.8372:

There’s no counter to stealth.

A pet should be able to attack a thief in and out of stealth (they have good smell) .

At the moment there’s no risk for thiefs, if they’re losing a fight, they just run away. It’s impossible to kill one.

It’s not only a troll class, it takes the fun out of the game.

Rangers, Elementalists, and Warriors can run away just as effectively in smaller engagements involving 10 or fewer players. No reason to talk about larger engagements because Thieves are useless for those. No reason to talk about duels because the only class that can’t beat a thief in a duel is a necro.

Lol. 20 on 2? You and the rest of your group of 20 really need some practice.

It’s pretty much guaranteed that there will be endless rivers of whine whenever you have a class in a game that is designed to excel in 1v1 or 2v2 situations, and players pick classes that are designed to excel in group combat or with a more defensive/supportive playstyle, then expect being able to do “leet duelz” with them on the same baseline as the premier duelist class.
What do you expect your class to be, a Mary Sue? It can’t do everything at max capability, just as thief can’t do every role equally well. Your fave class will never be the better duelist than thief, not with all the reasonable nerfs they get in the world. Better start dealing with it.

Laivine.9308:

Ashlov.3819:

The easy solution is for ANet to give every class a mechanic that’s equally frustrating to Thieves. Then we can all go around trolling and griefing each other.

^^ That! Pls Anet give us that..pls pls pls

yeah mesmer had one and it got nerfed into the ground!

honestly thieves arent that bad my engi jus giggles when they try to attack it and keeps walking… like a lil insect buzzing in my ear is annoying but doesnt hurt

I love reading these threads. The QQ

I’m just gonna leave this here…

Alkaholic.3875:

I’m just gonna leave this here…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ULyumpENjo

OMG did you see that damage? That guardian not using binding blade to pull him into everyone was pretty smart too. Much better to just spam staff 1 at the cloud.

Can’t decide if troll or plain bad player. Firstly, S/P does NOT have any stealth except for utilities. Secondly, if you go into with 20 level 5 inexperienced friends what do you expect? Next time someone posts something like this, post some evidence, because I strangely never see a video of all this whining.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

If they were 20 vs 1, you all were really bad.

If they were taking them on 1 at a time, you just need to learn how to deal with them in relation to your profession. You may have to change your build for a more 1v1 situation if you wish to go in there and fight. If you have done all that, you just need to learn how to deal with them in relation to your profession.

They are not difficult to deal with at all.

Why is it that nobody has to learn how to beat any other class in the game except for thieves?

Why is it that nobody has to learn how to beat an engi, a warr, a ranger, a necro, a guard or an ele (mesmer is another story, but that’s another topic)

The problem with thieves is that they have above bunker levels of survivability, note I didn’t say mitigation, combined with insane damage. That needs fixing. And you can cry about learning to play all you like, but it’s really just a case of people defending their thieves because they’re terrified of getting nerfed.

frostshade.3617:

honestly thieves arent that bad my engi jus giggles when they try to attack it and keeps walking… like a lil insect buzzing in my ear is annoying but doesnt hurt

Yeah but have you ever killed one?

I have a bunker engi in full soldier gear, and a gc thief can stab me for 6k, thats not an insect as far as I’m concerned.

Ashlov.3819:

The easy solution is for ANet to give every class a mechanic that’s equally frustrating to Thieves. Then we can all go around trolling and griefing each other.

I’d like to pick up on this. I thought a lot about it, but I really can’t get my head around how anyone with half a brain could ever implement something like the GW2 Thief in an MMO. You found the right word already: Griefing.

Players griefing other players is something every MMO tried to fight and avoid in the past (for obvious reasons), yet ANet thinks it’s a great idea to put a class into their game that is soleley designed to grief other players.

From a WvW player’s perspective:

In a 1 vs 2+ scenario: You’re dead. Nothing you can do unless you’re standing right next to a tower. Thieves have immense melee range damage, access to snares, pulls, gap closers + ranged damage and obscene mobility. Even when running the tankiest of builds, they will keep you in in-combat speed 24/7 and whittle you down. Anyone not running a tanky build or not having their defensive cooldowns up will just explode instantly.

In a 1 vs 1 scenario: Griefing akittens best. The Thief will do whatever he wants and you just can’t do anything against it. Even if you completely dominate him, he will just stealth out, reset the fight and come back at you a few seconds later. You will have to endure this torture until one of the Thief’s 546 attempts of killing you will finally succeed, or you managed to limb into one of your towers in in-combat speed.
Your only chance of ever killing a decent Thief is when that guy forgets where he put his keyboard.

In a 2+ vs 1 scenario: Hilarious and tragic at the same time. Multiple people running around in circles swinging their weapons at air and tossing AoEs around like crazy, hoping to kill something they cannot see.

tl;dr: Creating a slippery, high mobility, roflwtfbbq damage class with access to perma stealth in a game that has no counterplay to stealth. Excellent work GW2 Game Designers, thumps up.

What I do find funny is that the same ppl consider themselves experienced so that a thief is only a nuisance that tehy could win anytime but they still qq about dieng

makku.2508:

tl;dr: Creating a slippery, high mobility, roflwtfbbq damage class with access to perma stealth in a game that has no counterplay to stealth. Excellent work GW2 Game Designers, thumps up.

^^

(and some randomness for char count)

Iluth.6875:

Why is it that nobody has to learn how to beat any other class in the game except for thieves?

Why is it that nobody has to learn how to beat an engi, a warr, a ranger, a necro, a guard or an ele (mesmer is another story, but that’s another topic)

The problem with thieves is that they have above bunker levels of survivability, note I didn’t say mitigation, combined with insane damage. That needs fixing. And you can cry about learning to play all you like, but it’s really just a case of people defending their thieves because they’re terrified of getting nerfed.

You do need to learn how to fight all the other classes… if you’re 100% new you’ll get wrecked by a 100B Warrior…

I’ve had multiple people party me and ask me while on my Eng what the kitten hit them. After I talk to them about my build and how to beat it etc. they do a lot better. They had to learn to fight it.

Other classes are generally more obvious about what they are doing. Thief hides that and punishes players for not understanding what’s going on (mesmer does this as well). THAT’S what drives so much of this thief hate. They haven’t learned how to fight a thief… hence a lot of people saying L2P etc.

Thieves do not have above bunker levels of survivability… unless you have NO clue about how to stop a thief.

makku.2508:

In a 1 vs 2+ scenario: You’re dead. Nothing you can do unless you’re standing right next to a tower. Thieves have immense melee range damage, access to snares, pulls, gap closers + ranged damage and obscene mobility. Even when running the tankiest of builds, they will keep you in in-combat speed 24/7 and whittle you down. Anyone not running a tanky build or not having their defensive cooldowns up will just explode instantly.

In a 1 vs 1 scenario: Griefing akittens best. The Thief will do whatever he wants and you just can’t do anything against it. Even if you completely dominate him, he will just stealth out, reset the fight and come back at you a few seconds later. You will have to endure this torture until one of the Thief’s 546 attempts of killing you will finally succeed, or you managed to limb into one of your towers in in-combat speed.
Your only chance of ever killing a decent Thief is when that guy forgets where he put his keyboard.

In a 2+ vs 1 scenario: Hilarious and tragic at the same time. Multiple people running around in circles swinging their weapons at air and tossing AoEs around like crazy, hoping to kill something they cannot see.

tl;dr: Creating a slippery, high mobility, roflwtfbbq damage class with access to perma stealth in a game that has no counterplay to stealth. Excellent work GW2 Game Designers, thumps up.

And now for the truth…

1v2 of ANY class you should lose quickly unless they have a low skill level.

If you are attacked with your defensive abilities down you should expect to die in any of these 1v1, 1v2, 2v1 scenarios… as well as in many other situations.

1v1 Depends on your build and the opponent’s class as well as skill. My Eng/Guard/Mes have little trouble with a thief.

2v1 With 2x the CC and damage the thief wouldn’t stand a chance (presuming the 2 aren’t of a low skill level).

I’m able to 1v2 in WvW on my Eng regularly… I don’t consider myself an amazing player. It’s more that many people in WvW are very very casual. There is nothing wrong with that until those casuals expect everything to be balanced for their lower skill level. Thief is better at low skill levels but the more skilled both players get the worse the thief becomes (another reason people say L2P).

Inb4 Eng. OP needs a nerf.

While I consider thieves quite balanced in combat itself, I do think that being able to disengage at will and literally being immortal in WvW is op.
If you die in WvW while you are playing a thief you failed hard (either you are too greedy and over-commit or you are a horrible player in general).

I main a thief but I also play other classes from time to time (ele/nec), however, whenever I find myself dead a lot I just switch back to thief and never die again and even if i engage on someone who is 10 times better than me I just stealth/shadow step and run away (as a full glass cannon). Every other class that does the same will simply die in that situation.
I’m pretty sure the reason why so many roamers (including myself) play thief in WvW(regardless of what they say), is that the class barely punishes you for minor and mediocre mistakes but only for really heavy ones.

There is no punishment for playing a pure glass cannon with how stealth is currently. As a Warrior you mess up your 100 blades you are most likely in the kitten ….. missed backstab? np’s C’n’D and come back again for another go for that 7-10k hit, hell u can keep failing re-entering stealth until you pull it off. Keep resetting the fight until you get the upper hand. What other class can do this over and over?

Glass cannon just about any other class and if you screw up its game over because you cannot take hits, nor can you just disappear drop peoples targets and come back in 5 seconds time and try your burst combo again.

For roaming and ganking some classes are just far and away better than others, like Thieves. I dont see how this is even debatable, i think the amount of “omgzlol nerf thieFFss” threads you see tells a story all its own. Having said that im kind of unsure why everyone doesnt just roll 1 lol.

Chorazin.4107:

Having said that im kind of unsure why everyone doesnt just roll 1 lol.

Am I the only one that noticed that the amount of thieves has increased quite a lot in WvW?
As you mention: So many people complain about the profession, they see nothing being done about it, so instead of being frustrated they start griefing others instead, thus spreading the thief love..

Chorazin.4107:

For roaming and ganking some classes are just far and away better than others, like Thieves. I dont see how this is even debatable, i think the amount of “omgzlol nerf thieFFss” threads you see tells a story all its own. Having said that im kind of unsure why everyone doesnt just roll 1 lol.

Kind of like how some classes are far and away better in ZvZ (Guardian, Ele, Mesmer). Thief is almost useless in this format.

People just QQ about losing 1v1 and feel the need to make threads about it. Surprise, no class (or player) is good at everything.

Xirin.8593:

People just QQ about losing 1v1 and feel the need to make threads about it. Surprise, no class (or player) is good at everything.

Ok, I assume your main is a thief.. :-)
The thing is: Skillwise there is nothing wrong with a thief. If I encounter a good thief, I’ll get owned. Simple as that.
However, if I encounter a noob thief, I will not get owned, but neither will I get the kill on him, since a thief can always break out of combat, go stealth and reset the fight..
(please note: if I encounter a bad thief, I’ll win. But that’ll work with any class of course..)

Tribio.8531:

Chorazin.4107:

Having said that im kind of unsure why everyone doesnt just roll 1 lol.

Am I the only one that noticed that the amount of thieves has increased quite a lot in WvW?
As you mention: So many people complain about the profession, they see nothing being done about it, so instead of being frustrated they start griefing others instead, thus spreading the thief love..

I see fewer and fewer solo roaming thieves, more roaming in small packs. Overall amount is less if anything from what I’ve seen.

Tribio.8531:

Xirin.8593:

People just QQ about losing 1v1 and feel the need to make threads about it. Surprise, no class (or player) is good at everything.

Ok, I assume your main is a thief.. :-)
The thing is: Skillwise there is nothing wrong with a thief. If I encounter a good thief, I’ll get owned. Simple as that.
However, if I encounter a noob thief, I will not get owned, but neither will I get the kill on him, since a thief can always break out of combat, go stealth and reset the fight..
(please note: if I encounter a bad thief, I’ll win. But that’ll work with any class of course..)

So you won the fight… but are complaining that you didn’t get the lootbag? Part of the class design that they can choose their battles and leave if they don’t like where it’s going. Personally… most of the time I do get the loot bag off of them though… because I’ve plaid a thief and know what most of these WvW players will do in a typical situation…

Aberrant.6749:

So you won the fight… but are complaining that you didn’t get the lootbag?

I cba with lootbags..

Aberrant.6749:

Part of the class design that they can choose their battles and leave if they don’t like where it’s going. Personally… most of the time I do get the loot bag off of them though… because I’ve plaid a thief and know what most of these WvW players will do in a typical situation…

Agree.. But that’s somehow broken actually: Whatever a thief attempts (if he has half a brain and one arm), he has no risk whatsoever of a negative outcome. In the worst case scenario he’ll have to stealth out and reset (or give up the fight), but never ever will he have to fear for his life..
Before I’d do the same with my ranger (my main, so quite skilled with it), I’ll have to check who my opponent(s) is/are and if I can even succeed in getting him/them. If not, move on.. But a thief? Just try it nevertheless.. If all goes wrong, stealth out and carry on..

I agree also on the fact that, if you encounter a class where you have issues with, to roll one (I have all 8 classes) to check their skills and how to counter. And that’s a bit kitten with the thief’s stealth: Nothing to be done to counter it (and don’t mention stealth traps, or I’ll have you eat them)

So I think that what people annoys the most is that this is the only class that can easily break off a fight without any consequences..

Tribio.8531:

and don’t mention stealth traps, or I’ll have you eat them

1) ANet creates the only hard-counter to a class mechanic in game.
2) People don’t use this hard-counter and continue to QQ.

Pretty much the WvW population in a nutshell. RIP Confusion and Retaliation.

how about stealth removing 50 Silver from your accoutn each time u use it?
Would still be better than stealth trap….

Xirin.8593:

Tribio.8531:

and don’t mention stealth traps, or I’ll have you eat them

1) ANet creates the only hard-counter to a class mechanic in game.
2) People don’t use this hard-counter and continue to QQ.

Pretty much the WvW population in a nutshell. RIP Confusion and Retaliation.

Oh, so you find it normal that the only counter we have against stealth requires the investment of karma and badges? How would you QQ if you’d have to remove the bleeding from a ranger with a “anti ranger bleed” tissue you’d have to buy at a karma vendor?

Seriously, you love your thief, that’s clear.. But try to see why people are so much complaining about them.. And if you can’t: Roll any other class and go roam a bit in WvW..
As mentioned before: People are not QQing since they lost against a thief, people are QQing because ANet simply cba to do anything about the (abuse of) the stealth mechanic..

LordByron.8369:

how about stealth removing 50 Silver from your accoutn each time u use it?
Would still be better than stealth trap….

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_Disruptor_Trap

Karma is free and 15 badges is a reasonable cost for completely negating a class mechanic, especially considering the effect is AOE. That said, you could lower the cost to 1-5 badges and people still wouldn’t use them.

Also, they can be obtained for free via WvW rank chests. I’ve personally received 3 so far.

Tribio.8531:

Aberrant.6749:

So you won the fight… but are complaining that you didn’t get the lootbag?

I cba with lootbags..

Aberrant.6749:

Part of the class design that they can choose their battles and leave if they don’t like where it’s going. Personally… most of the time I do get the loot bag off of them though… because I’ve plaid a thief and know what most of these WvW players will do in a typical situation…

Agree.. But that’s somehow broken actually: Whatever a thief attempts (if he has half a brain and one arm), he has no risk whatsoever of a negative outcome. In the worst case scenario he’ll have to stealth out and reset (or give up the fight), but never ever will he have to fear for his life..
Before I’d do the same with my ranger (my main, so quite skilled with it), I’ll have to check who my opponent(s) is/are and if I can even succeed in getting him/them. If not, move on.. But a thief? Just try it nevertheless.. If all goes wrong, stealth out and carry on..

I agree also on the fact that, if you encounter a class where you have issues with, to roll one (I have all 8 classes) to check their skills and how to counter. And that’s a bit kitten with the thief’s stealth: Nothing to be done to counter it (and don’t mention stealth traps, or I’ll have you eat them)

So I think that what people annoys the most is that this is the only class that can easily break off a fight without any consequences..

I kept getting schooled by Thieves in WvW, so I rolled one and came to the same conclusion. If they’re good or they catch you at a bad moment, then you die. If they’re not great, or they attack you with all your CDs up, then you don’t die. If they’re terrible they get instagibbed sometimes, but usually they just run away after you don’t die to their opener.

So, I deleted my Thief because I dislike the playstyle. But I also changed how I play WvW. First, I try to never be alone. Second, if I get jumped while catching up to my group my goal is to CC and run away. I don’t bother trying to solo duel them, because if it looks like I might win they’ll just leave. So I just leave. Third, I just expect to die a lot on my grouping character (Staff Ele). My build isn’t really set up to 1v1, so if I get jumped by a Thief I’m just going to lose. It’s not about skill. It’s not about luck. It’s about counters. Thieves are the hard counter to a startling number of builds, and mine’s one of them. People keep complaining that stealth has no counter, but what they don’t realize is that stealth is the counter to them.

For example, when running my staff ele I get stomped by Thieves easily. But they’re supposed to do that, because otherwise I’d just AoE everyone’s face off at max range.

When running my power Necro I wait for them to gank someone just to pulverize them. But my power Necro is pretty bad in a group/zerg setting. Which is why Thieves don’t do so well against it.

Tribio.8531:

Aberrant.6749:

So you won the fight… but are complaining that you didn’t get the lootbag?

I cba with lootbags..

Aberrant.6749:

Part of the class design that they can choose their battles and leave if they don’t like where it’s going. Personally… most of the time I do get the loot bag off of them though… because I’ve plaid a thief and know what most of these WvW players will do in a typical situation…

Agree.. But that’s somehow broken actually: Whatever a thief attempts (if he has half a brain and one arm), he has no risk whatsoever of a negative outcome. In the worst case scenario he’ll have to stealth out and reset (or give up the fight), but never ever will he have to fear for his life..
Before I’d do the same with my ranger (my main, so quite skilled with it), I’ll have to check who my opponent(s) is/are and if I can even succeed in getting him/them. If not, move on.. But a thief? Just try it nevertheless.. If all goes wrong, stealth out and carry on..

I agree also on the fact that, if you encounter a class where you have issues with, to roll one (I have all 8 classes) to check their skills and how to counter. And that’s a bit kitten with the thief’s stealth: Nothing to be done to counter it (and don’t mention stealth traps, or I’ll have you eat them)

So I think that what people annoys the most is that this is the only class that can easily break off a fight without any consequences..

I agree with you about the thief being good if they can catch some one at the right time… thief is a very opportunistic class. At the same time if they just try to fight most classes straight up on even footing they won’t be able to win (unless the skill levels are low… then the thief will win since it’s easier to pick up).

The dev’s said in a past state of the game that they originally gave the thief so much damage because that sort of situation is what they are designed for… and to be able to down a bunker they needed a large burst. They’ve since lowered the damage, but haven’t increased their survival or ability to stay in the fight longer. Although they have nerfed bunkers a bit… it’s not been to the same degree that thief damage has been nerfed. If anything it shows me that thief needs some love.

Most classes can be built to be able to ditch out of a fight. Good luck catching a mesmer/war/eng/ranger built for it… a guard can just tank it to the nearest tower/keep most of the time. Don’t even get me started on eles not dying because of the kitten vapor form into a tower/keep after they’ve been downed. Yes thieves can do it the easiest… but it’s hardly something that’s unique to the thief. The thief can’t be build to be a tank… and lacks support for larger fights… while other classes can opt for those.

As far as killing a thief that’s trying to run away it really depends on the class you’re on and what the thief you’re fighting is using (requires knowledge of the typical builds used with those sets).

Some classes also have an easier time of it than others. Guard can binding blade and it’ll auto target something in stealth… while other classes can pressure hard at the right time with conditions so that the thief drops dead while trying to run away in stealth. I kill TONS of thieves with condition loading on my eng… it works very well together with HgH. I try to build up might stacks on the DL until they don’t really realize how much damage my eng is doing and try to pull out too late.

While it may be a little frustrating not getting that bag… it’s really a minor thing overall when trying to deal with balance imo.

Tribio.8531:

Oh, so you find it normal that the only counter we have against stealth requires the investment of karma and badges? How would you QQ if you’d have to remove the bleeding from a ranger with a “anti ranger bleed” tissue you’d have to buy at a karma vendor?

I don’t QQ about other class abilities. Hence my reference to Confusion and Retaliation, both of which were strong counters to Thief. Same with the pre-nerf Regen Bunker Ranger build, which I had a very hard time fighting against. I did not demand anything be done about these.

Tribio.8531:

Seriously, you love your thief, that’s clear.. But try to see why people are so much complaining about them.. And if you can’t: Roll any other class and go roam a bit in WvW..

I have all 8 classes at 80, like many people do. About 50% of leveling was done in WvW, for all classes. I mained a Warrior for 5 months but got bored with the one-dimensional playstyle. I played a staff Ele as a secondary character for ZvZ for ~3 months. I got ganked a lot on that Ele. I did not make any threads requesting that X class that ganked me be nerfed.

Xirin.8593:

I don’t QQ about other class abilities. Hence my reference to Confusion and Retaliation, both of which were strong counters to Thief. Same with the pre-nerf Regen Bunker Ranger build, which I had a very hard time fighting against. I did not demand anything be done about these.

Condition removal -> Confusion countered
Regeneration -> Retalation countered
? -> Stealth countered

See the point?

Xirin.8593:

I have all 8 classes at 80, like many people do. About 50% of leveling was done in WvW, for all classes.

So is my assumption correct that during all those months in WvW with those chars you were never bugged by a thief that tried to kill you, didn’t succeed, and then just stealthed away?
As mentioned: I have no problems losing a battle against a thief, if that thief is a good player.. Unfortunately, even a brain dead monkey with no arms can main a thief and mess around..
(I do know there are some very good thieves around there, no offence meant to those players)

Tribio.8531:

Condition removal -> Confusion countered
Regeneration -> Retalation countered
? -> Stealth countered

Any build that can dodge or CC the Thief into the Revealed debuff, then burst him to death before it wears off.

If you can’t do that then you can’t fight a Thief.

Stealth countered. Yes, it’s really hard.

PinCushion.7390:

Any build that can dodge or CC the Thief into the Revealed debuff, then burst him to death before it wears off.

Please elaborate: I’m a thief, I’m stealthed.. You will do what now? CC me (without knowing where I am)? Ok, I’ll be CC’d (but have tons of utilities to break out of it, remaining in stealth)..
(I know you can pull thieves out of their Shadow Refuge circle of course, but what to do once the stealth is applied?)

Stealth countered. Yes, it’s really hard.

Isn’t actually countered in that way.. It’s just a way to deal with it.. I could have said “Just don’t do anything” as a counter to Confusion also.. Isn’t a counter, just a way to deal with it..

Tribio.8531:

Condition removal -> Confusion countered
Regeneration -> Retalation countered
? -> Stealth countered

See the point?

I wasn’t talking broadly, I was talking about my personal experience with Retal/Confusion. However, if you want to talk broadly, the counter to stealth is: give Thief Protection and/or Invul skills. I’ve posted this before: Thief has no on-demand access to Protection/Invul. That is why Thief was given Stealth.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protection

Tribio.8531:

So is my assumption correct that during all those months in WvW with those chars you were never bugged by a thief that tried to kill you, didn’t succeed, and then just stealthed away?

Happened all the time. I got ganked or they reset the fight. I didn’t QQ because I understood that each class excels in a certain situation. I’m not sure what you are asking.

I really really wish that regeneration would counter the damage my Eng takes from retaliation when he’s traited for nades… same with other classes with multi hitting attacks… but it’s not even kittening close.

Xirin.8593:

Happened all the time. I got ganked or they reset the fight. I didn’t QQ because I understood that each class excels in a certain situation. I’m not sure what you are asking.

So never ever at that time did you think “kitten , this is really kittened up – He can keep swinging at me all he wants, I’ll never get the hit on him”?
Also, it’s the only class that can try that.. If a guardian tries to kill you and doesn’t succeed, you can be quite sure there’ll be a loot bag at your feet..

Once again: the problem is not with the thieves mechanics. I understand stealth is an essential part of the class (like e.g. a pet is to a ranger). But if I should find a combo with my pet that would give me a huge advantage over another player (perma-stealth, invulnerable, …), then you can be sure that a pet nerf is imminent..

However, perma-stealth by thieves is still allowed by ANet (and this is game breaking, sorry).. And that’s what the thread is all about: There is no hard counter to stealth and perma-stealth is possible..

Tribio.8531:

Xirin.8593:

Happened all the time. I got ganked or they reset the fight. I didn’t QQ because I understood that each class excels in a certain situation. I’m not sure what you are asking.

So never ever at that time did you think “kitten , this is really kittened up – He can keep swinging at me all he wants, I’ll never get the hit on him”?
Also, it’s the only class that can try that.. If a guardian tries to kill you and doesn’t succeed, you can be quite sure there’ll be a loot bag at your feet..

Once again: the problem is not with the thieves mechanics. I understand stealth is an essential part of the class (like e.g. a pet is to a ranger). But if I should find a combo with my pet that would give me a huge advantage over another player (perma-stealth, invulnerable, …), then you can be sure that a pet nerf is imminent..

However, perma-stealth by thieves is still allowed by ANet (and this is game breaking, sorry).. And that’s what the thread is all about: There is no hard counter to stealth and perma-stealth is possible..

I’ve never understood why perma-stealth was that big of an issue… if they are just staying in stealth then they aren’t really doing anything… the only thing I can think of is C&D off of something to contest… which is a bug they need to fix (and tried to fix in the past, but it didn’t work)

Aberrant.6749:

I’ve never understood why perma-stealth was that big of an issue… if they are just staying in stealth then they aren’t really doing anything… the only thing I can think of is C&D off of something to contest… which is a bug they need to fix (and tried to fix in the past, but it didn’t work)

Saw a video earlier today around here that illustrated this nicely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ULyumpENjo

In this vid one thief is perma-AoE-stealthing, so you have no idea how many (if any) players are with him. And all it takes is one mesmer to portal bomb..