Guild Wars 2

Seriously, why? Does it not make SENSE that more numbers = overwhelming advantage? There are things that a zerg can accomplish that a five or otherwise small man group cannot dream of accomplishing. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy running both in a small group and a zerg, and yes, I’ve taken keeps and fortified towers with small amounts of people, but the advantages of a zerg are just innumerable. Let’s start with the basics:

-More firepower
-More effective health. (I dislike the 5-man AOE cap, but it’s offset with the 5-man Boon cap as well. Even without the cap however they still have higher effective health)
-Insanely fast revives and ressurects (I dislike the revival system, I do, but it’s there.)

Really simple right? Now factor in a couple other things into the mix

-Stacking boons (yes, i understand the five man cap on most boons, but the problem is a small man group usually has to be more spread out whereas a zerg can afford to stick more tightly together due to 5-man aoe cap)
-Stacking healing
-Stacking condition removal
-Stacking combo finishers

-Along with the psychological benefits, which is higher morale.

-And of course, it’s obvious to anyone who’s wuvwuv’d that higher numbers of people also equals…higher supply (siege built faster. Really!)

I can’t think of many advantages of a small man group to be completely honest. The first thing that comes to mind is that they are much easier to coordinate (but this can be offset with zerg coordination. Think how devastating a 10 man flank on a 4 man group is). The second is that they are harder to detect. The only other reason I could think of is that they can accomplish things that a zerg also could (like holding an enemy at a choke), but with fewer numbers hence letting the rest of their allies accomplish other things.

Anyways, there are things that are integral to wvw that small numbers of people (<10) cannot accomplish. In general, this amounts to attacking fortified structures

-Attacking defended towers: This should be fairly obvious. One of the advantages of a small man group is their ability to avoid detection better than a zerg. However, if you’re attacking a tower, it’s really obvious to the defenders inside (if there are any), and there goes your advantage. With small numbers of people it’s also nearly impossible to get any respectable amount of siege up, and with less than 5 people impossible to get a catapult up without either the supply buff or running supply, leaving your only option to either PvDoor for 10 minutes or build a ram (which can be countered with just ONE defender). It’s downright near impossible to defend your siege because half your group will be manning it. The more heavily fortified the tower is, the worse it gets. And to top it off, one or two defenders can hold off four of you, so there goes the third advantage of the small man group.

If there’s 20 people inside the tower with ballistas pointed at the future breach, gg.

-Attacking defended keeps:

It’s likely that a small man group would have trouble maintaining siege against the constantly respawning NPCs, not to mention the players there (Keeps also tend to have much higher reserves of supply, allowing one person to easily construct an arrow cart or a ballista and ruin any small group’s plan of taking it)

-Attacking Stonemist castle.

Just no. Especially if it’s defended, even zergs get obliterated trying to get in AFTER they’ve breached both gates. SMC also usually has defenders 24/7, so there goes anyone’s hopes of trying to snipe it.

-Open field combat that is NOT at a choke point

Allows the zerg to easily surround and destroy this small man group. And realistically a smaller group can only hold back a zerg at a choke if the zerg was composed of players who are too afraid to push in with stunbreakers. Also, a coordinated zerg destroys a coordinated 5-man group, and yes there are coordinated zergs. (ever been on JQ’s teamspeak? it’s a beautiful thing to see)

Now, again, I’m not bashing small man groups. They are fantastic for flipping supply camps, flipping undefended towers and (sometimes even keeps), contesting locations to throw the enemies into havoc, and uniting with other small men to take down a zerg in open field combat (yes, 6 groups of 5 coordinated guys are FAR superior to a mindless 30 man zerg). They capitalize and optimize the resources their server has while their own zerg takes care of pressuring say, Stonemist Castle, Bay Keep, Hills Keep, etc. However, realistically there are things that they just can’t really do.

1) People like to complain about those with some unmatchable advantage. Whaaaat? You have a zerg and I don’t? Unfair!

2) Culling, and especially the new culling, gives a greater advantage to zergs than it does to small groups by allowing the zerg to be less visible than it should be.

I’m a solo/small group roamer, and I wouldn’t care about zerg if it didn’t come with crazy culling.

I’m minding my own buissness hunting people and all of sudden terrible culling happen, I die from invis AoE spam and I have a zerg dancing over my body, boating over their 20 vs 1 accomplishment.

I don’t mind dying to zerg, that’s how Open pvp work. But dying to culling, oh well.

i love to zerg like there is no tomorrow, but in this game, zerging is the only game in town.

in other games, superior skill and game play can beat superior numbers to various degree. in this game it’s vitually impossible to beat 3 times your own number in open field. people get rezzed / self rezz faster than you can bring them down/finnish them. coupled with the fact that a killed bunny can instantly get up a bucketload of players again and fighting superior numbers becomes all but impossible.

no other game rewards numbers over skill as much as GW2.

I understand the needing of a zerg to accomplish tower/keep capping or defending. This is world versus world after all.

But I don’t understand why people need a zerg to kill the solo player who just capped the sentry in the far south of the BL map.

muylaetrix.2096:

in other games, superior skill and game play can beat superior numbers to various degree. in this game it’s vitually impossible to beat 3 times your own number in open field.

In very very VERY few games is it probable to beat 3 times your own number in OPEN FIELD, even with superior skill. Most cases where this happen is where players die very quickly (in gw2 this is not the case) and even then it’s not that often. Actually, this applies to real life too. If 3 people jumped one martial arts master, unless this martial arts master can easily lift 400-500 lbs (roughly three peoples’ weight) they’re going to crush him (literally, they could just sit on him and he wouldn’t be able to do much), even if they have no fighting skill at all, just the most basic form of coordination.

And it’s not as hard in Gw2 as you think. If by open field you mean truly open, then no, 3 times your number should absolutely crush you (short of you being a military genius, those of which are in short supply) by simple virtue of being able to very very easily surround you.

Also i disagree that no other game rewards numbers over skill like gw2.

Because people like the complain.

MMO forums are a vile place.

What small groups do best is to harass supply camps and kill dolyaks. You don’t want to send a zerg to stop supply from getting into a keep, and you don’t want to use a zerg to defend a dolyak. Zergs need to be after strategic targets such as towers and keeps.

Also small groups can effectively stall large groups on strategic objectives, such as preventing ram/catapult construction against your towers. Allowing your zerg to take away objectives from your enemy while they are stalled against you, then redouble and kill the enemy zerg hitting your objective.

Nausicca.6038:

I understand the needing of a zerg to accomplish tower/keep capping or defending. This is world versus world after all.

But I don’t understand why people need a zerg to kill the solo player who just capped the sentry in the far south of the BL map.

would it make sense to draw lots to see who gets to do a one vs one if you are with 50 storming an objective that is defended by a single person ? when i see a camp change hands on the map i have no idea how many people took it. when ‘we’ head there with 20, we might find that it was taken by one player, or find 100 players there.

people don’t need a zerg to kill one. the ‘one’ is just unfortunate that multiple people crossed his path.

also, if 50 people kill one player, that’s 50 people who can earn a badge. if one player kills one other player in a one vs one, only 1 player can earn a badge.

50 players can kill 50 enemy players in …just for the sake of the argument… roughly the same amount of time it takes 1 player to kill 1 other player and earn 50 times as much badges the same amount of time.

‘if’ every player could only drop 1 badge, ‘lotoed’ amongst all the players cooperating, no mather how many players cooperated in killing him, ‘then’ trying to get more 1 vs 1 fights would become better ‘badges per hour’ than just getting the largest possible amount of players together and kill as many enemies as possible.

i like zerging, but the rewards for zerging are too large and the rewards for soloing too modest.

I think people just want something that rewards skill and superior organisation, consequently making everyone strive to be better rather than who has the most Players available outside of prime time.

There is alot of people playing with me that are constantly trying to improve and test their wits of siege placement, sneaky tactics or open battlefield pvp however 99% of the time it just comes down to numbers. When we engage in something where numbers do not apply or the largest force are beaten, its always memorable albeit fleeting.

Importantly people want to feel their contribution has made a difference. Something that almost never occurs in a dominant Zerg

Actually it’s very easy to hold a choke with ballistas against a zerg that’s too afraid to push.

This occurred in t7. The siege isn’t really even cleverly placed. Alternatively, if the zerg does want to push, throw down stun fields, warding, crippling traps, condition wells, null fields, etc etc. It’s pretty easy at a choke for fewer players to hold off many, if the ten have superior skill (also defending is easier than attacking)

muylaetrix.2096:

50 players can kill 50 enemy players in …just for the sake of the argument… roughly the same amount of time it takes 1 player to kill 1 other player and earn 50 times as much badges the same amount of time.

Not necessarily. 50 players will stack boons and aoe is much more effected (offset by of course revives and defensive boons, but not enough; offensive boons tend to overpower the defensive ones, and some defensive boons actually are offensive, like for example retaliation). Also once a good portion of one zerg is killed the rest will start to rout, making most of them free and easy kills.

The problem is that skill does not play enough of a role. Of course skill could matter to much and make the game inaccessible to new players but as it stands numbers > all

Acelerion.6820:

The problem is that skill does not play enough of a role. Of course skill could matter to much and make the game inaccessible to new players but as it stands numbers > all

I have lost 2v1’s (where i was on the team of two) and consequentially i have also won 1v2’s (where i faced two opponents alone). I can’t speak for gear but everyone was lv 80. Yes, skill matters, and numbers do NOT trump all. I’m sure many others have had similar experiences of winning and losing outnumbered open field fights. Also, have you not seen the 4v30 videos? or the 7v50?

Numbers is the greatest advantage you can have, I’ll admit that, but that’s the way it SHOULD be.

Teamkiller.4315:

In very very VERY few games is it probable to beat 3 times your own number in OPEN FIELD, even with superior skill. Most cases where this happen is where players die very quickly (in gw2 this is not the case) and even then it’s not that often.

in DAoC and Warhammer (not to the same extend as DAoC, but still majorly) Skill (and rank) > numbers and winning vs FAR superior numbers was common for the best guild groups. those were the only 2 games with a decent ‘w3’-esque model imho. every other game that has had a similar system (at least of the games i played) only used the ‘we have great ’realm vs realm’ as a salespoint with no content or flawed content to back it up and sell some extra copies.

Teamkiller.4315:

Actually, this applies to real life too. If 3 people jumped one martial arts master, unless this martial arts master can easily lift 400-500 lbs (roughly three peoples’ weight) they’re going to crush him (literally, they could just sit on him and he wouldn’t be able to do much), even if they have no fighting skill at all, just the most basic form of coordination.

well you obsiously think in terms of ‘sumo’ where size mathers and not in terms of ‘aikido’ which is all about technique and not about size/ and doing bench presses. and you don’t mention the person with the revolver taking out 10 enemies equally armed at 100 range because he is a good shooter and the 10 couldn’t hit a barn door at the same range. and in real life, a hand grenade is not ‘capped’ at wounding only 5 people.

Teamkiller.4315:

And it’s not as hard in Gw2 as you think. If by open field you mean truly open, then no, 3 times your number should absolutely crush you (short of you being a military genius, those of which are in short supply) by simple virtue of being able to very very easily surround you.

all depends upon play style and game mechanics if it is possible.

^^ good show of the few crushing the many (and i was amongst the many there, but didn’t die).

Teamkiller.4315:

Also i disagree that no other game rewards numbers over skill like gw2.

everyone his opinion, fair enough

muylaetrix.2096:

in DAoC and Warhammer (not to the same extend as DAoC, but still majorly) Skill (and rank) > numbers and winning vs FAR superior numbers was common for the best guild groups. those were the only 2 games with a decent ‘w3’-esque model imho. every other game that has had a similar system (at least of the games i played) only used the ‘we have great ’realm vs realm’ as a salespoint with no content or flawed content to back it up and sell some extra copies.

A) Top guilds in Gw2 wipe superior numbers all the time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuglHYntFD0

The question is whether or not it is PROBABLE, and no, it is not. And zergs usually have a massive strategic advantage that comes with larger numbers; like i said not only more firepower and more effective/overall health but also the ability to surround you in open field combat, larger flanking groups to work with, more support, etc. etc. etc.

muylaetrix.2096:

well you obsiously think in terms of ‘sumo’ where size mathers and not in terms of ‘aikido’ which is all about technique and not about size/ and doing bench presses. and you don’t mention the person with the revolver taking out 10 enemies equally armed at 100 range because he is a good shooter and the 10 couldn’t hit a barn door at the same range. and in real life, a hand grenade is not ‘capped’ at wounding only 5 people.

Sorry, those are both terrible analogies, and no I don’t mean Sumo as in size. I mean if three people were to grab the limbs of one guy and hold him down he’d be helpless. Of course they’d have to get over their initial fear of the “mystical martial artist” but that’s a psychological disadvantage, not a physical one. Anyways, you notice how in movies the 1vX fights always have the one guy fighting one person at a time while the rest circle around menacingly? Yeah, there’s a reason for that; one big reason is cause the one dude isn’t usually capable of realistically keeping up a sustained defense against multiple persistent attackers.

Revolvers kill/incapacitate in one hit (usually). Hey, I didn’t know Gw2 was like that.

muylaetrix.2096:

all depends upon play style and game mechanics if it is possible.

gasp so you’re admitting skill matters?!? Doesn’t this kinda sorta contradict your first point? I dunno why you’d argue against yourself.

muylaetrix.2096:

everyone his opinion, fair enough

You don’t understand. You asserted it, you gotta prove it. I just said I disagree, I’m waiting for proof that there is no other game in existence that rewards numbers over skill as much as gw2 does. So…where’s the proof?

If you really look at most posts it’s not the Zerg most people hat it’s more of the fact that the Zerg is over incentivized, for all the reasons you stated and then some.

What myself and others would like is a reward for playing in smaller groups so with the upcoming changes it would be nice if points are split to all involved meaning if you run with a smaller group you are splitting points to a smaller pool compared to the Zerg.

It would be the only thing in WvW that worked this way becuase right now if 5 people take a supply camp they get (made up numbers inc) 1k xp, 1k karma and 1 silver, if 50 people take the same camp (way easier for them btw) they all get 1k xp, 1k karma, 1 silver. And that is the biggest problem with the system, rewards do not scale to match the true difficulty to the task done and since its safer to Zerg and you are rewarded just as much why would you not?

But you add one system, just one that works differently and it would just be a nice way to say, look we know small groups are out there and this is for them.

You realize that the reason zergs attack supply camps is so they can drain supply for things yeah? For those who pay attention to /m and /t people are constantly asking you to not take supply from stonemist, not take supply from keeps, not take supply from towers (when upgrades are running). There’s really only one option left: supply camps. If you have a zerg of 30 ready to hit SMC (for example) then just going to your own supply camps isn’t going to suffice, you’re going to have to flip a third one to get everyone 10 supply. If a small man group hasn’t done that already, then hey, why not use the zerg? It’ll only take 10 seconds anyways.

Also zergs are the only realistic way of dealing with righteous indignation in a reasonable amount of time.

muylaetrix.2096:

all depends upon play style and game mechanics if it is possible.

gasp so you’re admitting skill matters?!? Doesn’t this kinda sorta contradict your first point? I dunno why you’d argue against yourself.

>> i bugged up formatting the text. the game mechancics (cap on 5 persons) don’t allow a play (style) where a few people can kill a lot of people at once. does this phrasing survive your scrutiny ?

muylaetrix.2096:

everyone his opinion, fair enough

You don’t understand. You asserted it, you gotta prove it. I just said I disagree, I’m waiting for proof that there is no other game in existence that rewards numbers over skill as much as gw2 does. So…where’s the proof?[/quote]

>>>ok, let me rephrase, “i know of no other game that rewards…”

english is not my first, second or even third language. excuse me if my phrasings don’t live up to your standard and excuse me if i sometimes forget a smily or if i forget to add ‘imho’ in every single sentence.

:p

Teamkiller.4315:

Sorry, those are both terrible analogies, and no I don’t mean Sumo as in size. I mean if three people were to grab the limbs of one guy and hold him down he’d be helpless. Of course they’d have to get over their initial fear of the “mystical martial artist” but that’s a psychological disadvantage, not a physical one. Anyways, you notice how in movies the 1vX fights always have the one guy fighting one person at a time while the rest circle around menacingly? Yeah, there’s a reason for that; one big reason is cause the one dude isn’t usually capable of realistically keeping up a sustained defense against multiple persistent attackers.

no one has ever beaten up more than 1 person! mmmkay What happens if 3 dudes try and grab a guys arms and he breaks their kittenn noses? I’ve seen a guy beat up 4 people like it was nothing. I’ve seen 5 trained officers try and detain a dude who beat up a few and ran away. He wasn’t a martial artist, he was a drunk. Cmon dude.

enji:

no one has ever beaten up more than 1 person!

Where did I say that? Did I say it’s NEVER happened? No, in fact I just told you ive both won and lost 2v1s and 1v2s. Didn’t I? Do you read sir?

mmmkay What happens if 3 dudes try and grab a guys arms and he breaks their kittenn noses? I’ve seen a guy beat up 4 people like it was nothing. I’ve seen 5 trained officers try and detain a dude who beat up a few and ran away. He wasn’t a martial artist, he was a drunk. Cmon dude.

anecdotes, you’re telling me stories. I’m saying that it’s not probable for 1 guy to beat up 3-4. The advantage is usually in favor of those with more numbers.

I don’t know but you left us with this gem:

Teamkiller.4315:

If 3 people jumped one martial arts master, unless this martial arts master can easily lift 400-500 lbs (roughly three peoples’ weight) they’re going to crush him (literally, they could just sit on him and he wouldn’t be able to do much), even if they have no fighting skill at all, just the most basic form of coordination.

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

enji

I don’t know but you left us with this gem:

Yes I did…now tell me where I said one dude has NEVER beaten up multiple people like you claim I said.

tagnut.8621:

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

Wow! hahahah this is the post of someone who clearly has no experience of how WvW (RvR) is gone right. Oh god i feel sorry for the person at the end of this post.

tagnut.8621:

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

Ok so your play style is already rewarded in spades. You enjoy this and for that I’m glad. Games are mean to be enjoyed.

So some of us want to run havoc/small man groups becuase that’s the type of open world pvp we enjoy. Taking on other small groups harassing the Zerg and swooping I. To hit teams from the back in a pincher move. So we ask to maybe recognize this form of play and reward it in its own way.

So explain to me how having my style of play rewarded much like your style is rewarded would in anyway effect you negatively?

Kakeru.2873:

tagnut.8621:

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

Wow! hahahah this is the post of someone who clearly has no experience of how WvW (RvR) is gone right. Oh god i feel sorry for the person at the end of this post.

You know how patronizing this post makes you sound? Sorry to bust your fairy tales but this is Gw2 world vs world, not Dark Age of Camelot 2.

@Samhayn:

Small groups do contribute to field battles (i can’t tell you how many times I’ve flanked with only 5-10 people). However, a small flank typically won’t work unless the group already engaged also pushes (otherwise the people you are flanking can just try to break through one of your smaller armies). So when you have your group flank, you need to immediately inform the rest of combatants that you are indeed flanking, and that they need to push to rout the verminous _________ invaders from the field.

Mehknic.2904:

1) People like to complain about those with some unmatchable advantage. Whaaaat? You have a zerg and I don’t? Unfair!

2) Culling, and especially the new culling, gives a greater advantage to zergs than it does to small groups by allowing the zerg to be less visible than it should be.

2 is incorrect, culling is much improved and I can see enemiess farther then ever. Maybe for you it’s bad, I run in small groups and large ones. so don’t speak like this I “fact”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

OK, so you admit you made a hyperbole. In that case, I call logical fallacy on your argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

I only complain about the downed state as it gives invulnerability to zergs but nothing to smaller groups. Currently zerg is like some mutated organism: it regenerates so fast that if you can’t destroy it at once, you can’t hurt it at all.

Teamkiller.4315:

OK, so you admit you made a hyperbole. In that case, I call logical fallacy on your argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

coolstorybro.jpg I didn’t make a hyperbole, I used hyperbole to make fun of your position. Like, if I have to come up with peer reviewed studies to prove to you that 1 person can in fact beat up multiple people pretty easily then lol.

enji.7459:

I didn’t make a hyperbole, I used hyperbole to make fun of your position.

…uh…you realize…that…what you just…wrote…

are you like, just acting or are you being serious? I can’t tell.

enji

Like, if I have to come up with peer reviewed studies to prove to you that 1 person can in fact beat up multiple people pretty easily then lol.

No, what you’d have to do is come up with a peer reviewed study that shows to me that out of many thousands of trials of 3 people fighting 1 dude that the one dude beats the living daylights out of the other three fairly often. We’re discussing probability, not possibility. You know the difference between the two? Just cause they both start with the letter “p” doesn’t make them the same

Kakeru.2873:

tagnut.8621:

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

Wow! hahahah this is the post of someone who clearly has no experience of how WvW (RvR) is gone right. Oh god i feel sorry for the person at the end of this post.

O rly….

So this having no experience of rvr eh? Most of the opponenets I’m fighting in largescale wvwvw I’ve fought before in 3 or 4 mmos previously.

RvR done right = DAOC large scale. RvR done wrong = WOW, especially arenas.

WvWvW is the closest I’ve come to DAOC – it ain’t DAOC but its not bad. Now their were a small minority of idiots who thought rvr in DAOC was finding somewhere out of the way to run 8v8 teams at each other and that was fine, they amused themselves. Now the rest of us really enjoyed massive large scale fights and sieges. Warhammer tried and failed badly due to atrocious management.

Unfortunately their seem to be a minority of idiots here who think that wvwvw should revolve around their 2 or 3 or 5 man teams and squeal zerg when it doesn’t go the way they like.

I never claimed anything really. We were discussing YOUR claim that even a martial arts master couldn’t handle 3 dudes. Not 3 athletic guys, but 3 dudes with the most basic coordination which is el oh el. This means, in statistical terms that you believe the chance of one “normal non-martial art master” dude beating up more than 1 person is pretty much non-existent which is also lol.

Dunno why people are onsessed with martial arts as some ideal – tests have shown that a boxing punch hits harder than a martial arts one….

Boxing is a martial art.

Also i dunno where I claimed that you claimed something (other than that hyperbole, which you admitted to, which you denied figuratively “making” and tried to hilariously make it seem like it was different from “using”)

enji

We were discussing YOUR claim that even a martial arts master couldn’t handle 3 dudes.

more often yes than no.

enji

This means, in statistical terms that you believe the chance of one “normal non-martial art master” dude beating up more than 1 person is pretty much non-existent which is also lol.

yes

Zergs tactics display very poor map design.

Arenanet’s servers and game engine are unable to handle 3 servers fighting for Stonemist Castle on reset Friday. Abilities have unbearable lag delays and culling makes most players completely invisible.

They designed a sandbox without multiple critical objectives. This is why zerg tactics work. If there were many critical objectives to defend or assault, zerg tactics would be completely ineffective.

I don’t think its the Zerg in particular, its more the culling, maps so small that avoiding a zerg every 5 feet is next to impossible. Culling needs to be fixed and this new culling has got to go. The map size … I doubt they will do anything about it but as long as they remain small, Zerging really doesn’t use any tactics, just run to the next keep/tower/supply and lay waste, after all its only 30 seconds away.

Zergs are not forced to make choices, everything is within spitting distance. Its mind numbing.

Calae.1738:

Zergs tactics display very poor map design.

Arenanet’s servers and game engine are unable to handle 3 servers fighting for Stonemist Castle on reset Friday. Abilities have unbearable lag delays and culling makes most players completely invisible.

They designed a sandbox without multiple critical objectives. This is why zerg tactics work. If there were many critical objectives to defend or assault, zerg tactics would be completely ineffective.

I think this is where most folks are coming from when they complain about the Zerg. The Zerg, and its omnipotence, is just the most obvious evidence of a map that has been designed in a one dimensional way of thinking and playing.

I dont believe that folks want to see the Zerg dissapear. However, the Zerg represents High Intensity conflict (and I am speaking just of the “gameplay” itself, not the mechanics of how GW2 tries to make that happen). This is good, and there should always be a Zerg on the field.

The Zerg should represent your “front line”, or the tip of your spear. However, due to the small size of the battlefields, and the relative close proximity of objectives, the Zerg is made too responsive and too powerful. This is amplified by the population caps in each battlefield.

The end result is a battle WITHOUT front lines, something more akin to a rugby scrum rather than an actual battle where tactics and maneuvers have a real chance of changing the outcome of a battle. And that is, in my opinion, what people are really complaining about when they complain about the zerg: they are complaining about the relative simplicity of WvWvW; where three giant amoeba engage in a bloody three way using the Center Keep as a bed.

Some simple, at least in thought, solutions:
Significantly increase the map area of each battlefield. This will at least make the zerg consider where it wants to be and prevent it from being everywhere at once. This will also open the field for smaller groups and tactics to become more effective, providing ‘low intensity’ conflict areas to exist as well as the zerg battles.

The other solution, which cannot work (again, IMO) without the first:
Fix culling and remove the population cap in WvWvW

Nuzt.7894:

I don’t think its the Zerg in particular, its more the culling, maps so small that avoiding a zerg every 5 feet is next to impossible. Culling needs to be fixed and this new culling has got to go. The map size … I doubt they will do anything about it but as long as they remain small, Zerging really doesn’t use any tactics, just run to the next keep/tower/supply and lay waste, after all its only 30 seconds away.

Zergs are not forced to make choices, everything is within spitting distance. Its mind numbing.

I’d like to add that waypoint travel also allows zergs to have superior mobility. I like the idea that you can counter zerg mobility by contesting waypoints but, how much fun is it for someone to be on waypoint contesting duty?

If it took 15 minutes to get from one keep to another, zerging would be counterproductive because you would lose 5 keeps for every 1.

muylaetrix.2096:

Teamkiller.4315:

In very very VERY few games is it probable to beat 3 times your own number in OPEN FIELD, even with superior skill. Most cases where this happen is where players die very quickly (in gw2 this is not the case) and even then it’s not that often.

in DAoC and Warhammer (not to the same extend as DAoC, but still majorly) Skill (and rank) > numbers and winning vs FAR superior numbers was common for the best guild groups. those were the only 2 games with a decent ‘w3’-esque model imho. every other game that has had a similar system (at least of the games i played) only used the ‘we have great ’realm vs realm’ as a salespoint with no content or flawed content to back it up and sell some extra copies.

Teamkiller.4315:

Actually, this applies to real life too. If 3 people jumped one martial arts master, unless this martial arts master can easily lift 400-500 lbs (roughly three peoples’ weight) they’re going to crush him (literally, they could just sit on him and he wouldn’t be able to do much), even if they have no fighting skill at all, just the most basic form of coordination.

well you obsiously think in terms of ‘sumo’ where size mathers and not in terms of ‘aikido’ which is all about technique and not about size/ and doing bench presses. and you don’t mention the person with the revolver taking out 10 enemies equally armed at 100 range because he is a good shooter and the 10 couldn’t hit a barn door at the same range. and in real life, a hand grenade is not ‘capped’ at wounding only 5 people.

Teamkiller.4315:

And it’s not as hard in Gw2 as you think. If by open field you mean truly open, then no, 3 times your number should absolutely crush you (short of you being a military genius, those of which are in short supply) by simple virtue of being able to very very easily surround you.

all depends upon play style and game mechanics if it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9qnUsZOcI

^^ good show of the few crushing the many (and i was amongst the many there, but didn’t die).

Teamkiller.4315:

Also i disagree that no other game rewards numbers over skill like gw2.

everyone his opinion, fair enough

Its too bad I can’t bear children, cause I’d bear yours.

defrule.7236:

If it took 15 minutes to get from one keep to another, zerging would be counterproductive because you would lose 5 keeps for every 1.

Wow, I really don’t think anyone anywhere ever said it should take 15 min to get from keep to keep, but 30 seconds ? The idea is, it would mean zergs and players would actually have to think about what to do, do they run to the N keep or the S keep, do they split the zerg into two small zergs and hit both. Right now WvW requires very little in the way of tactics.

Counter productive is whats happening right now.

Culling has taken care of teh zergs

Big fights are what WvW is about but I can agree with arguments that WvW should also somehow promote medium and small scale fights. I think these were supposed to happen at supply camps but the maps just aren’t big enough (smaller fights do happen at them but not as often as you’d hope/think. But that is where you can get some fun GvG). Plus teh maps tend to funnel players. So, WvW could use some changes that could help.

The issue is people hate losing, and seem to think it’s because the enemy has a bigger zerg. It’s just an excuse, most of the time. >3<

i dont complaint about zergs, i complaint about invisible zergs

Because people like to complain online…

WvW is about big armies fighting big armies. Do smaller ‘havoc squads’ and ‘kill teams’ have a place? Absolutely.
But, if said small team runs into a 30+ person zerg, and tries to stand their ground (for whatever reason) then the odds should not be in their favor.
Sure, skill can help. Good tactics on the part of the small team can help. And hell, despite the odds, the small team /could/ manage to come out on top. It’s not an impossibility.
But that should never be an automatic thing, even if it is just because of sheer overwhelming numbers.
Zergs are here to stay, whether you like them or not. If you never want to deal with the fact they you might be outnumbered and overwhelmed, then sPvP is over that way…

tagnut.8621:

Kakeru.2873:

tagnut.8621:

Anyone complaining about zergs is an idiot.

You want small scale – go play s(illy)pvp. I bought this game for one reason and one reason only – large scale battles. And since the culling change (which incidentally is much much much better for me) we’ve had them non stop – massive 3 way fights lasting 5, 10, 15 minutes.

If you’re whining about zergs you’re in the wrong game.

Wow! hahahah this is the post of someone who clearly has no experience of how WvW (RvR) is gone right. Oh god i feel sorry for the person at the end of this post.

O rly….

So this having no experience of rvr eh? Most of the opponenets I’m fighting in largescale wvwvw I’ve fought before in 3 or 4 mmos previously.

RvR done right = DAOC large scale. RvR done wrong = WOW, especially arenas.

WvWvW is the closest I’ve come to DAOC – it ain’t DAOC but its not bad. Now their were a small minority of idiots who thought rvr in DAOC was finding somewhere out of the way to run 8v8 teams at each other and that was fine, they amused themselves. Now the rest of us really enjoyed massive large scale fights and sieges. Warhammer tried and failed badly due to atrocious management.

Unfortunately their seem to be a minority of idiots here who think that wvwvw should revolve around their 2 or 3 or 5 man teams and squeal zerg when it doesn’t go the way they like.

Yeah but that small band of idiots like you called us where able to, take keeps hold mile walls and wipe the floor with the zergs with tac-tic (for people who remeber the vn boards). I’m glad I played on a server where the Zerg actualy worked with and appreciated the roaming groups and didn’t have people calling us idiots like you just did.

That said you at least notice that DaoC did something right and you also know that RP where split amongst all the groups that hit the target and split by damage done by said group. This at least rewarded small group play well at the same time we still had zergs running around. It worked 11 years ago and with the rank system coming to gw2 I see no reason it would not work now.

Shump ChickenEater, Firbolg Warden of Ravens of the Veil, Percival.

@Nuzt.7894

Quote button not showing up for me for some reason.

You’re mistaking my stance with that post. I want it to take 15 minutes between each objective because it would punish zerging heavily.

Imagine the entire server zerging 10 players attacking some keep on one side of the map, while 5 other guilds take 5 keeps on the other side. The zerg wouldn’t be able to save all keeps like they can now and this is a good thing.

Teamkiller.4315:

Acelerion.6820:

The problem is that skill does not play enough of a role. Of course skill could matter to much and make the game inaccessible to new players but as it stands numbers > all

I have lost 2v1’s (where i was on the team of two) and consequentially i have also won 1v2’s (where i faced two opponents alone). I can’t speak for gear but everyone was lv 80. Yes, skill matters, and numbers do NOT trump all. I’m sure many others have had similar experiences of winning and losing outnumbered open field fights. Also, have you not seen the 4v30 videos? or the 7v50?

Numbers is the greatest advantage you can have, I’ll admit that, but that’s the way it SHOULD be.

The 4v30 and 7v50 video is not even worth watching. The zerg is scared of attacking them thus getting free hits off. Only when last couple minute of the 7v50 the zerg realized what are we doing? Lets push them and came there down fall.When they can easily push through and crush them. If that was in a higher tier server they would of just get wrecked no problem.