Guild Wars 2

EnRohbi.2187:

He is right though,
You can’t just say that a valid opposing point can’t be posted here.

You made a decision to play the game mode based on the assumption that you were getting no material reward for doing so.

You are also assuming that World Exp is going to be given out as a static number per kill/accomplishment.
What if it varies by level? Anet didn’t track the level of each of your kills.
What if it scales with the number of people involved in the kill/capture/defense/etc? Anet didn’t keep track of that either.

Completely putting “fairness” and what you think you deserve aside,
It is very likely that technical limitations will prevent Anet from making any calculations about how much you should have actually earned retroactively.

It isn’t a valid point if he’s telling me that I chose to play it so I shouldn’t expect anything more.

There is an up-level system. No matter how “broken” it may be, it has never affected the experience gained from a kill before. World XP, as my best guess, is a flat, account bound rate, meaning that level will have no bearing over how fast it will be gained.

Sure, there are a lot of unknowns regarding how it is calculated, but currently it doesn’t appear as if it will be any different from the achievements and titles we were already progressing towards (no matter how impossible).

If they use a system where 1 Kill = XXX Exp and 1 Keep = XXXX Exp then it absolutely should be retroactive, even if the inclusion of the World XP is delayed so everyone starts out evenly, as I have previously suggested.

Once again, this isn’t about what I think I “deserve” it is about what I have EARNED and what countless other WvW players have EARNED. There is no entitlement here, simply asking everything that we’ve done to this point to actually count for something. It isn’t even monetary based. It’s a kittening title and some passive bonuses that allow you to be a better teammate and add depth to the game type.

We aren’t making more money and we don’t have better gear. In fact, the new players probably have better gear since we only WvW, so why the hell shouldn’t we have benefits to our gameplay based on how we chose to spend our game time? They have Ascended gear, I carry additional supply and do more damage with siege. Seems fair to me.

fenim.2395:

snip

This to some extent. This is a progression patch and if we as WvW veterans are already close to the top right when the patch comes out, where is the progression? The next patch? Where we will probably already qualify for the next round of stuff before it even comes out.

At the same time, I do agree with the OP. I imagine a more relevant analogy (avoiding real world badgering) would be me saving my badges as a hardcore WvW player and having say 3k badges by the time this update rolls out. Then Anet decides to add new content with the WvW currency, but they are changing badges to now be cookies. While I love cookies (yum), my hard earned badges, that were sitting in my bank waiting to be worth something, waiting to have the same weight as dungeon tokens or fractal tokens, now became worthless. Now, even though I have all this “experience” that will probably help me earn more cookies (yum) than your average PvE player, I will still have lost all that value and time that went into the badges, even though the cookies(mmmmm) follow the exact same methodology of attainment.

My proposed solution to this? A sort of hall of monuments for veteran WvW players. This can be in the form of special titles/gear/whatever rewards than can be obtained with our current achievements. While these will be accessible for anyone that has WvW’d any up to this point, the ones that have spent their GW2 life in WvW will have access to the better rewards than those that have spent their GW2 life PvEing. This allows for those rewards to mean something, while at the same time still allowing for WvW veterans to progress along the same path as others after the patch, and have lots of fun doing it!

Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a sudden hankering for cookies o.o

MikeFerguson.8921:

We use existing mechanics like player kills and event completions to award world XP, but it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

Thank you for the response, Mike.

Is there any solace that players who have only participated in WvW can take from this?

There are players who have spent their entire GW2 lives in WvW, what does this mean for the countless hours that they’ve spent racking up those kills and keep captures?

An entirely new system taking no previous achievements into account seems to cheapen the enormous amount of time that many have spent in WvW and makes it seem as though we should have all just gone to PvE instead of all our kills, etc. being a waste to this point.

Well you should be able to analyze the titel and give some reward out for it dont you? I think long time wvw players should be rewarded, we are always behind in wvw, on gold and on equipment (still no news on that) and now you do not even get a little bit of bonus… I can absolutly understand why some ppl are a little angry, if they play the game only for wvw ;-)

WvW players need love too =(

MikeFerguson.8921:

We use existing mechanics like player kills and event completions to award world XP, but it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

Thanks for clearify Mike !! Really appreciate your fast answer.

Well

:(

MikeFerguson.8921:

We use existing mechanics like player kills and event completions to award world XP, but it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

Figured this would happen. A bigkittento the WvW folks. Hairy Hank and his mamby pamby PvE can just hop into the WvW and be on the same level as those of us who have been WvWing for months.

MikeFerguson.8921:

We use existing mechanics like player kills and event completions to award world XP, but it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

Typical bs answer from anet.
Why not just re-calculate world xp using existing date with new formula? It’s date, for yak’s sake, not a toilet paper you can use just once.
Oh well, just another example how devs favor pve-players over pvp, nothing new about that.

Quenta.2978:

Figured this would happen. A bigkittento the WvW folks. Hairy Hank and his mamby pamby PvE can just hop into the WvW and be on the same level as those of us who have been WvWing for months.

Well most have all kind of ascended stuff, so its not the same level ;-)

What I think would be a nice way to solve it, take a snapshot of your database and run a script like you did after the karka event. So you have plenty of time to implement some retroactive love.

Itoldyouso

15chars

ANET designing a WvW update to be nice to WvW players? What kittening planet do you live on? This is so all the John Does can get more PvE out of their game.

I mean, it’s not like we ALL have title tracks progressing already that measure WvW progress. No, NOTHING LIKE THAT EXISTS.

I opened this thread expecting to completely agree with the OP, and I do primarily feel that starting these new tiers from scratch is a stick in the eye to the many WvW die hards. However, after reading the thread I can see the benefits that starting from scratch would bring. Everyone starting at zero would be a great incentive to get new players into WvW.

I also have no idea if its even possible for Anet to include old accomplishments into the old systems.

I think a good middle point would be to make badges worth something. I know many of us are completely broke, but have thousands of badges. I have 6g and 2500 badges.

If Anet would simply allow us to do something useful with these badges, the hardcore WvWers would feel less scorned about the World XP ignoring their months worth of hard work.

Good question, but disappointing answer.

Apparently some gear is being added for badges including new looks and stat combinations. We will see what that brings, but it should also be part of the March update. I have 5k badges that need spending.

It is still, easily, a stick in the eye. Even if they low-balled the World XP from prior kills/events to be one of the lowest thresholds because their system can’t figure it out, it would be better than getting nothing as Mike has stated.

Condoleezza Rice.5791:

I think a good middle point would be to make badges worth something. I know many of us are completely broke, but have thousands of badges. I have 6g and 2500 badges.

If Anet would simply allow us to do something useful with these badges, the hardcore WvWers would feel less scorned about the World XP ignoring their months worth of hard work.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/WvW-Rewards-New-Gear/first#post1541632

No details yet but depending on what will be available to buy with badges this could be the answer to appease players who have been active in WvW for months.

So, for those of us who’ve literally been in wvw since pre-launch and spent 90% of our time there, nothing.
7 months, nothing to show for it, for putting up with the bugs, hacks, culling, severe lack of cash, only PVT gear as a currency option and you can’t even make some adjustments to give us a little bit?

Because right now, you’re really lucky there isn’t an immediate competitor for my business, though this may change in the forthcoming months to someone who does give a kitten about their players and I will remember just how badly we’ve been treated.

MikeFerguson.8921:

We use existing mechanics like player kills and event completions to award world XP, but it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

Thank you so much for the answer, lots of us were wondering the same thing.
I’ve gotten used to a red post in WvW forums meaning it was locked, and was pleasantly surprised to see this was an answer! Keep it up, we love hearing from you guys.

MikeFerguson.8921:

We use existing mechanics like player kills and event completions to award world XP, but it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

You already have these data (kills, supply, keep taken). Don’t forget players that are here since start.

Every time I see a red post it’s a different answer on what is coming in March.

Quenta.2978:

Figured this would happen. A bigkittento the WvW folks. Hairy Hank and his mamby pamby PvE can just hop into the WvW and be on the same level as those of us who have been WvWing for months.

Actually the PvE folks will be ahead of the WvWers, cause the best gear (ascended) only drops in PvE. Having to PvE to gear up to WvW was a huge fail in Rift. Kind of surprised to see Anet treading the same shameful path.

I haven’t seen a game go retroactive yet, its shocking how many people were hoping it would.

Don’t take this wrong, I would love for it to be retroactive but it certainly should not be a surprise that it won’t be.

Trials of Atlantis feelings a creepin up.

Oh too bad, so you guys can’t use things like the kills to at least give awards for that?I understand the rest of it but the kills could give some awards our commander has like over 40k kills…I’m at 17k atm, but maybe its a good thing so certain people don’t get super op right away with all the retro awards.

selan.8354:

Oh too bad, so you guys can’t use things like the kills to at least give awards for that?I understand the rest of it but the kills could give some awards our commander has like over 40k kills…I’m at 17k atm, but maybe its a good thing so certain people don’t get super op right away with all the retro awards.

Why? They’ve done the work.

lunatuna.6823:

Quenta.2978:

Figured this would happen. A bigkittento the WvW folks. Hairy Hank and his mamby pamby PvE can just hop into the WvW and be on the same level as those of us who have been WvWing for months.

Actually the PvE folks will be ahead of the WvWers, cause the best gear (ascended) only drops in PvE. Having to PvE to gear up to WvW was a huge fail in Rift. Kind of surprised to see Anet treading the same shameful path.

Honestly, if I had to choose between a PvEer with the best gear the game has to offer or an experienced WvWer in nothing but masterwork gear I’d go with the WvWer every time. Experience is almost always better than your equipment in this game, especially in WvW.

Resonance.4216:

Why? They’ve done the work.

They could also be ganking specced thieves. No work involved for them to get kills.

Shikigami.4013:

Resonance.4216:

Why? They’ve done the work.

They could also be ganking specced thieves. No work involved for them to get kills.

Takes more work to do that than riding shotgun with the zerg all day. I’m looking at you, Longbow Rangers and Staff Eles (I admit I mained a GC Staff Ele for about a month).

Shikigami.4013:

Resonance.4216:

Why? They’ve done the work.

They could also be ganking specced thieves. No work involved for them to get kills.

I’d be surprised if a “ganking spec’d thief” had more kills than me. Ganks involve 2-3 kills at a time. In a single engagement with a force of 30, you can get more kills than that thief has in an hour. Sure, they get theirs with less assistance. No, that does not mean that they didn’t earn their kills. Getting ganked is just as much a part of WvW as getting steamrolled by an army.

they’re adding new stuff to WvW and WvW specifically so i see this as a good thing. and yes, before you call me out, i haven’t spent my entire gw2 career in WvW. i’d say it’s about 50/50 total considering now i mainly WvW and do PvE for daily and getting new gear.

i would have loved for these rewards to work retroactively for those who’ve worked so hard in building up their WvW communities.. but it hink it’s a bit silly to say that all that these people have done is a waste. i know you’re voicing your concern but that just undermines what these dedicated WvW-ers have achieved and have been doing. i know who are the hardcore WvWers on my server and will always respect them as so. and i know in no time, they will achieve these ranks and abilities in due time. simply as many of you have stated, because they frigging love WvW.

[edit: to clarify, i do agree that these awards should be given and awarded retroactively]

It would be nice to be compensated for the things we’ve already done that they can gather data points on, if even only partially.

As for titles, the way I understood it, the titles are only viewable by the opposing forces and replace the ‘Invader’ title we all have. In that regard it’s a title we’ll never see anyway.

akamon.2769:

they’re adding new stuff to WvW and WvW specifically so i see this as a good thing. and yes, before you call me out, i haven’t spent my entire gw2 career in WvW. i’d say it’s about 50/50 total considering now i mainly WvW and do PvE for daily and getting new gear.

i would have loved for these rewards to work retroactively for those who’ve worked so hard in building up their WvW communities.. but it hink it’s a bit silly to say that all that these people have done is a waste. i know you’re voicing your concern but that just undermines what these dedicated WvW-ers have achieved and have been doing. i know who are the hardcore WvWers on my server and will always respect them as so. and i know in no time, they will achieve these ranks and abilities in due time. simply as many of you have stated, because they frigging love WvW.

What I’ve done for my community on Blackgate could never be a waste.

What we’ve done on the field, though, every kill that we’ve worked so hard to earn, every keep that we’ve sieged or defended for hours, has been a waste. You can look at it from the aspect of experience and fun if you wanted; yes, a veteran WvW player will know more than a fresh PvE player, but they won’t have the shiny gear to show for their experience, they won’t even have titles, they will be 100% even, except for the fact that a PvE player has something to show for every little thing they have done in PvE whereas we have nowhere close to that.

Having it go back retro would be the stupidest move Anet could do if they want to get new people into WvW.

All I have done in this game is WvW and don’t even pve for daily’s.

Imagine if all you did was pve and then you want to try out WvW only to realise you were 7 months behind the curve? Yup sounds fun for newbs.

Badges for gear is the best and only way.

This answer is unacceptable. Thanks for participating in WvW for months but no cigar. OP has excellent points.

Brome.7036:

Having it go back retro would be the stupidest move Anet could do if they want to get new people into WvW.

All I have done in this game is WvW and don’t even pve for daily’s.

Imagine if all you did was pve and then you want to try out WvW only to realise you were 7 months behind the curve? Yup sounds fun for newbs.

Badges for gear is the best and only way.

That will happen anyways at some point after this update. Your argument is invalid.

Branskins.9752:

Starting at square one allows those players who are becoming interested in Fractals of the Mist to join without feeling behind.

This is good for Fractals overall. Get new players in and make them not feel behind. Something tells me if you have the Level 50 Fractals title, getting the new titles should be pretty easy

Fixed

I have spent probably around 90% of my GW2 time in WvW. I have been in there nearly everyday since launch. I have continued putting a lot of hours in WvW despite the lack of progression, gold, gear, culling issues and lag. If Anet comes through with this change and does not add retroactively what I have achieved so far, it will probably be what will break the game for me. WvW has been a lot of fun, but I would also like some recognition for the effort put in so far. If as some people are saying this will help get more pve people into wvw, which I dont believe at least not in significant numbers, what benefit does it have for the game if veteran wvw people leave. Basically as far as I am concerned this will be a massive regressive step, which does not recognise those players who have put a lot of time and effort into wvw and kept it going through all the issues that it has had. If they can’t add achievements retroactively leave the new system out. All I can do now is wait for the release of the patch to see what they do.

Marof.1790:

I have spent probably around 90% of my GW2 time in WvW. I have been in there nearly everyday since launch. I have continued putting a lot of hours in WvW despite the lack of progression, gold, gear, culling issues and lag. If Anet comes through with this change and does not add retroactively what I have achieved so far, it will probably be what will break the game for me. WvW has been a lot of fun, but I would also like some recognition for the effort put in so far. If as some people are saying this will help get more pve people into wvw, which I dont believe at least not in significant numbers, what benefit does it have for the game if veteran wvw people leave. Basically as far as I am concerned this will be a massive regressive step, which does not recognise those players who have put a lot of time and effort into wvw and kept it going through all the issues that it has had. If they can’t add achievements retroactively leave the new system out. All I can do now is wait for the release of the patch to see what they do.

Is that really why you play WvW? So that you have something you can lord over newer players when they finally introduce a meaningful reward system? Because it’s not what I’ve been working towards; what I get is a name for myself and my guild in my server’s community, some personal progression in skill, and a few badges on the side. You don’t lose any of that the moment they introduce this new system.

Of course, that’s assuming that retroactive World XP was ever something that was on the table, and I doubt very much that there was the technical ability to implement it properly and retroactively. Sure, it’d be a nice bonus to get the extra recognition but if it can’t be done there’s no reason to throw a fit over it. Are you expecting them to compensate you for the poor gold rewards to date as well? You still have your advancement on all the other WvW titles, they’re finally throwing in the carrot so many people have asked for, and your response is to say you’ll quit?

Branskins.9752:

IF it is not retroactive, they are playing it safe by allowing people to jump back into WvW and FEEL that they are not behind.

Everyone wants less damage from siege or being able to grab more supply. While not strictly an advantage, people may feel behind as everyone running around has these cool bonuses.

Also progression usually involves… progressing. If after the patch we have unlocked all the passive abilities and all the cool things because we completed WvW titles that were made before this progression system…you aren’t really progressing anything.

All it takes I’ve found is 1 afternoon to teach a PvE guild how to WvW.
I did it last weekend, 5 of us hopped into their voip and spent an afternoon showing 25 or so them (with a mix of gear and levels) how to do their combo fields, where to place siege and rudimentary combat tactics.
We blew several of the best rated T2 opposing guilds off the face of the borderland, we took 2 keeps, 2 towers and a garrison in the space of 5hrs along with a handful of defence actions to hold territory.

So, I put myself on the PUG market in PvE. Who will want a level 80 condition-spec necro in full exotics for their Fractal group? 1300hrs played, killed more people than cancer and reliable.
/crickets
Oh come on, I really need the gear.
/crickets
How about a few COF speed runs?
/tumbleweeds

:(

I’m not a mesmer, guardian or warrior, so no one ever wants me in pve and now I’m looking down the barrel at having nothing to show for all my efforts over the last 7 months because Im a full time wvw player and feeling kind of gutted.
None of the existing ‘wvw achievements’ are even remotely accessible, the numbers required are so fantastically high, you’d have to be high to think they’re even do-able.

I have played over 1000 hrs in WvW too and hardly any PVE, and quite honestly i dont even care what we get and we dont.

IF this move brings new PVE crowd to WvW cos they are not lacking behind, its a good thing in my eyes atleast. wvW has sever populations issues right now.

All i care in WvW is to have a healthy population, good fights and be competitive which is more fun than running after titles and achievements which honestly nothing more than little pixels.

i thought WvW understood this a lot more than others.

Giving something to us WvW is appreciated, but somethings are more important to me atleast.

They said u can still able to keep the old record to get that extremely rare title like 100k kills and those yak escort things.

Ranking is ok, i dont mind starting fresh with everyone but I hope all my badges that stockpiled can go into something good looking though and only availiable in WvW.

BTW: Dev, that Invader gears actually costs too much badges. I felt for those who using badges for them. It’s just pointless.

Some players have put it more diplomatically and eloquently but for me and others I’ve talked to no retroactive alignment seems like no planning or deliberate withholding of information.

WvW was already neglected on the rewards side & also no timely WvW release to match PvE content.

Despite being behind the curve for so long, no information about WvW progression was forthcoming . I enjoy WvW but how this whole thing has played out is deeply disappointing.

It seems pretty childish to complain now when you don’t get the rewards for things you did in the past. I did a lot of events and killed a lot of veterans and champions in PvE, so I should be getting a compensation for the loot I missed before the loot system was changed? And shouldn’t I get laurels for all the dailies I did in the past? When they change the way you get precursors, should everybody who bought one get a gold refund? This happens everywhere in the game all the time as it evolves. If you did a lot of WvW in the past you’ll probably also do a lot of WvW in the future, so you’ll gain those titels a lot faster than any random player doing WvW from time to time. Deal with it and don’t be selfish and demanding, I guess you played WvW because it was fun before, not for any rewards, otherwise you have other problems.

In regards to the title system, I think it really depends on how steep the curve is, right? If it takes 5000 WvW kills to get the first title, then I think it would be a good idea to do it retroactively (system similar to LOTRO). In that title ranking system, it took several years of dedicated game play to reach rank 10+.

One thing that I would be concerned about is people farming each other across servers (something LOTRO experienced). Part of the fix was to penalize deaths, but then you had people create throw away characters. I’m not sure if there is a way to monitor repeated deaths to discourage/ban farming for titles (provided it is based on kills). Something to be considered.

Iruwen.3164:

Deal with it and don’t be selfish and demanding

You mean like PvE players who have full ascended gear and legendaries and piles of cash and now want to join WvW on equal footing with people who have been doing that for months?

Arenanet needs to recognize that they have been giving WvW players the shaft since the game came out. We are way behind PvE players.

MikeFerguson.8921:

it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

MikeFerguson.8921:

We will be keeping all the existing WvW achievement tracks [..] along with the progress you have already obtained on those achievements.

Couldn’t the new XP take into account the existing achievement tracks? (Answer: it could, but you don’t want it to. )[edit]And that’s fine.

Slamz.5376:

Iruwen.3164:

Deal with it and don’t be selfish and demanding

You mean like PvE players who have full ascended gear and legendaries and piles of cash and now want to join WvW on equal footing with people who have been doing that for months?
Arenanet needs to recognize that they have been giving WvW players the shaft since the game came out. We are way behind PvE players.

That’s why they increased the WvW loot now. And I cannot buy a title or ability with gold as far as I know. I wholeheartedly agree exotic equipment should be available for badges of honor in WvW though, I have no idea why they didn’t do this.

Svarty.8019:

MikeFerguson.8921:

it is an entirely new system with new pieces of data associated to it so unfortunately there’s no way to award retroactive progress.

MikeFerguson.8921:

We will be keeping all the existing WvW achievement tracks [..] along with the progress you have already obtained on those achievements.

Couldn’t the new XP take into account the existing achievement tracks? (Answer: it could, but you don’t want it to.

If the XP is quantified in any way other than directly linearly from the number of points you have in any achievement track; then no, they can’t.

It would be nice for a bonus from past deeds, but if I cared about being rewarded I wouldn’t have started wvw in the first place. The only title I need is [PiNK] above my head!

Iruwen.3164:

snip

There are no logistics to this. The World XP counts the things that have been categorically tracked in WvW since launch. Everything that every player has done in WvW since launch is effectively erased except for the “Ultimate” title tracks, which, as stated by Mike, will take several years of dedicated play to complete. To be honest, those are a pipe dream.

Every time they pushed back updates to WvW or promised us a progression system would be coming soon™, they basically wasted more of our time and effort. Sure, I have “experience” or a “dedicated WvW guild” as many have so kindly pointed out, but PvE players have those things for FotM or dungeons and dragons and orr. So really, other than the proverbial learning curve, WvW players have nothing, and in most cases have worse gear because of the limitations facing them regarding both income and badge drop rates combined with the fact that WvW STILL has no independent way of obtaining Ascended gear that PvE players have had for months.

You argue that we were playing a rewardless system so we should be okay that our TRACKED STATS should be forgotten when they finally decide to integrate some sort of progression. PvE players almost exclusively get access to Ascended items and Legendary weapons. There is your progression.

ANet has deliberately withheld information from us. We hoped that -maybe- we’d be working towards something called the patch. This spits on every player that not only stuck with this game through the issues, but continued to WvW through them because it was fun for us. I’m sure you had fun for PvE. Maybe we should make a progression system there and not count your 7 months of gameplay. Sounds fair to me. Oh a WvW players just did his first dungeon yesterday when you’ve done thousands? Ya, you guys have the same title. How kittening fair is that?

The entire reason for these titles resetting is that they are so scared of “poor little PvE players” not getting access to titles and bonuses when the patch rolls out and some WvW players would have them because they EARNED them months ago. This isn’t entitlement. We put in the work for no pay. ANet still owes us that money.

You know, if another WvW players had a higher title than me or more bonuses, then he DESERVES it. This isn’t an ego thing. I want what I earned and I want what every other WvW player earned for themselves and for their server. Wouldn’t it be cool to know which server has the players who have the most kills or most of a certain title? Well good luck this patch; you’d never know by looking at them because not only was the last 7 months unrewarding monetarily (which was continuously addressed and promised it would change), but the last 7 months of achievements, kills, and events in WvW that were counted IN DETAIL don’t count for anything.

I’m sure you are perfectly fine with this because you are visiting this forum. I’d wager you frequently check other sections as well. I’ll give you a newsflash. About 5% of the server population plays about 90% of the WvW and the vast majority of them only venture to this subforum. The last 10% is people that filter in and out. The people that would be most upset about not having titles while others do when the content comes out are the people that never stepped out of PvE other than to grace us with their presence in the JP for their badges, clogging our queues so they could get their legendary without playing PvP as intended.
(cont.)