Guild Wars 2

As in many games, when 4-5 months have past after release, the player that has been playing 8-10 hours a day, every day, knows far more about the experience the game offers and the possibilities that the game has than the developers.

This is always hard to accept by the creators of the game.

I agree with the above post about pride.

What they need to do is understand that their original intentions towards e-sport sPvP failed completly.

However they are lucky enough to not have any other mass combat mmo to compete against them. And although much of this community quitted GW2 in the first 5 months (after getting permanently ignored), there still is the possibility of exploiting this market.

This is what they fail to see. That under the sinking ship of eport spvp there is salvation boat of competitive RvRvR and mass combat.

Personally, I dont care about red guard or anyone in it. Never met them, so I have no basis for any feelings whatsoever. The amount of “hero worship” present in things like this is just downright strange to me.

That said, I do think that Anets focus needs to be shifted. WvW could be a very real boon to GW2 if it was a strong focus. I will say that a good amount of enjoyable things have been added, but they have their drawbacks (especially to someone like myself who loves alts).

I was actually thinking, before release, that WvW was going to be the focus of the esport thing. I did not look into it much, knowing that the vast majority of pre-release info is hyped or biased in some way. This one aspect had me pretty excited, since esport is such a limited thing at this point in time. Its like having the term “sports” but the only one actually played is golf. I want to see new esport formats and thought WvW was going to give it a go somehow, but it was my own fault for not looking into it further.

There are a lot of issues to be fixed though, some that are just odd and frustrating. Wall lips, phase-shifting dolyaks, reward disparities between game modes, and more. But, I actually dont mind the focus on siege, as I have posted about before. I enjoy that it adds a layer of strategy beyond just open field combat. I also feel it needs a bit of a makeover. For those that know nothing else, I can also see that adapting to a new playstyle would not only be difficult, but downright despised in some cases (many people hate change).

Will Anet respond to this? No. Will Anet start focusing on WvW more? I hope so. Regardless of what has been said in the past, the health of the game will guide the companies decision making. If neglecting WvW (which I dont feel has been done to the extreme degree many insinuate) causes lost revenue, they will most likely give it more attention if its a choice between losing their job due to lack of revenue, or saying they were wrong about their priorities.

I cannot stand watching the full video. The video lacks structure and the person behind it eloquence.

Sadly, he does not understand objective based PvP. Moreover, he does not understand the problem of large scale fights in general. Fighting 20 vs. 20 removes any skill requirement left in the game.

In general I absolutely agree that a guild should put themselves first before the community. Need to do missions instead of heading to WvW due to call to arms? By all means. But are you willing to put your guild first at the detriment at the community, in a mode where the whole server is the focus and not guilds?

You are free to do whatever you wish but there are some actions of a guild which will negatively impact the rest of the server in WvW.

Another example, about a few months back there were two guilds in a borderland (not TW) along with a fully upgraded Hills and a paper Bay held by another server. We were going to lose Hills but one guild helped delay the inevitable with their forces (it was going to be capped in 10 minutes). Meanwhile the other guild, even with a commander tag on, went all the way to Bay, despite calls to help for Hills. Why would you want to give up an upgraded hills for a paper Bay which would probably be taken again in 15 minutes? That’s what was asked in map chat. The response? “Because we wanted to, we made our decision”. This guild isn’t a PvE guild, they’re well known and can field their own. Unfortunately it’s a poor strategic decision and they got flak for it for the next several minutes.

FirstBlood.7359:

Sadly, he does not understand objective based PvP. Moreover, he does not understand the problem of large scale fights in general. Fighting 20 vs. 20 removes any skill requirement left in the game.

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Vol just watch the movie and then also know this, MOST EU SERVERS DO NOT PLAY FOR POINTS LIKE YOUR NA SERVER, not every godkitten person plays for godkitten points because its godkitten boring.
Anet is shoving everything up our face and FORCING us to do things their way. FORCING us to go do their piece of kitten spvp, FORCING us to blob, FORCING us to sit behind siege all day, FORCING us to grind pve for gear.
They FORCE us to play for the reward at the end of the week instead of letting us play for the way we see things as FUN.

Fun is seen differently by others and YOU do not understand why others see somethign else different as FUN

Radiology.3597:

I know people have been banned for posting the link, I’m sure plenty of you can find his youtube channel and the video he posted 9/12/13 on the progression (or lack of) in GW2 in terms of WvW and GvG.

Sacrx, and moreso Red Guard, is a guild held in high regard to the community and so their opinions on the game DO matter very much. I myself, being heavily invested in WvW, and currently interested in the growth of GvG, am HIGHLY concerned about the state and future of WvW and GvG because someone who knows so much about the game has pretty much been ignored.

If I get banned for mentioning it, so be it, but I believe it is in the large interest of the WvW community to hear an official response from Anet. I believe many WvWers are playing in belief that you guys are serious about this aspect of the game, but if we are just being funneled to sPvP for Anets dream of an esport, then I’m wasting my time in hopes of progress, and will sadly take my leave.

Yea he expressed & asked so nicely that soon you will have your answer!

…lol

Well, look at the bright side – more guilds may join WvW now that the everyone will know how to break the WvW queues, pushing solo queueing pugs out.

I find it amazing that we can actually break something that’s already broken. Its not even kicking a dead horse anymore, its a dead horse kicking itself!

Dawdler.8521:

Well, look at the bright side – more guilds may join WvW now that the everyone will know how to break the WvW queues, pushing solo queueing pugs out.

I find it amazing that we can actually break something that’s already broken. Its not even kicking a dead horse anymore, its a dead horse kicking itself!

That will certainly get hotfixed, but the fact still remain.
WvW is broken. ANet dn’t want to hear the complaints of the community, specially the suggestions to improve it.
Almost all the WvW communities that came into here to play WvW are gone. Some have given up on WvW (and on PvP at all). Most of the actual WvW guilds are a gathering of players from those communities that still wants to WvW for the same old objectives.
Maybe in sep.17th we can rejoice as we can win some golden dolyaks if we get 1st place … /sarcasm

/cheers

Reasons why Sacrx’s opinion matters:

1. He was an ALPHA tester, meaning he’s played the game longer than almost everyone else. Probably up to a year longer, for a game only released one year.

2. As an ALPHA tester, his likes, dislikes, were communicated to the devs in a personal manner. How many of you have had a lengthy conversation with a dev? In BETA, we were just asked to rate each event and post on the forum.

3. He and his guild have also put enough post release time in the game for him to get 250,000 kills in WvW. Just take your total kills and your time in the game and figure out how much longer you’ll need to play to get to 250,000. Do your own math, 250,000xhours/kills= how many hours you’ll need to play to get to 250,000. That alone should tell you that he’s faced a considerable more battles than most everyone else.

4. He comes from playing games that WvW was based on and realized before GW2 was released that alliances, not guilds or people, would make for a winning server. If your server suffers from coverage problems then he’s outplayed you.

Reason why his opinion won’t matter:

He backstabbed everyone at ANet by releasing “confidential” material. It doesn’t matter if he’s right or not, he crossed the line.

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

LHound.8964:

Dawdler.8521:

Well, look at the bright side – more guilds may join WvW now that the everyone will know how to break the WvW queues, pushing solo queueing pugs out.

I find it amazing that we can actually break something that’s already broken. Its not even kicking a dead horse anymore, its a dead horse kicking itself!

That will certainly get hotfixed, but the fact still remain.
WvW is broken. ANet dn’t want to hear the complaints of the community, specially the suggestions to improve it.
Almost all the WvW communities that came into here to play WvW are gone. Some have given up on WvW (and on PvP at all). Most of the actual WvW guilds are a gathering of players from those communities that still wants to WvW for the same old objectives.
Maybe in sep.17th we can rejoice as we can win some golden dolyaks if we get 1st place … /sarcasm

/cheers

They can’t hotfix it. They can’t even fix it. They tried on alpha when they first got reports of that bug, 0 success so far, but maybe now that they have to care, they will try harder.

Aneu.1748:

UrMom.4205:

I got nothing against GvG, but at the same time if they put in some sort of spvp style gvg arena wouldn’t that take a lot of players out of WvW? That would make WvW worse for a lot of players.

Lets not try to derail this thread. This has very little, if anything at all, to do with GvG.

Meanwhile half his video is ranting that WvW isn’t GvG.

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

SO you think Spvp is gw2 is competitive?, lets be honest its a mini WvW ppt kitten. Spvp in gw2 is a mode where if you actually avoid combat, and focus just on the objectives of capping you win. How is any of this PVP, i remembers When pvp was killing other players, and if you lost you learned from it adapted and came back stronger.

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

I didn’t said that pvp should be JUST killing things.
But a pvp mode where killing things is almost not involved is just as bad.

They’re on opposed ends of the spectrum, thus both unviable as competitive and esport scene.

And GvGs in wvw are pure DM only cause there is 0 dev or client support to player created content to do something deeper.

We really need to talk about esports? Fine, let’s look at MOBAs.
There is point objective play? Yes, turrets lanes pushing and overall goal is destroying enemy nexus.
There is required killing? Yes, both AI (jungling + waves of minions) and players.

As long as one thing is missing (WvW gvgs) or too weightened compared to the other (spvp) there is no argument.

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

sorry mate, but you have no idea what you’re talking about, see yourself out of this thread please.

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

If you are desiging a game for e-sport succes you want a game thats easy to watch, easy to get into, has some players that people can recognize. The player experience actually comes second to the viewer experience.
GvG ofcourse would not work well as an e-sport, if e-sport is your goal you dont do 20v20 its to messy. No one can see whats going on as a spectator.

What people are asking for is things for the player experience. GW2 is not going to be an e-sport, and the devs should stop making descisions for the sake of e-sport because whats good for e-sport doesnt have to be good for the player. Infact these two interests are often at odds with eachother.

Just look at how ANet has been shoving us into 1 gamemode for the sake of e-sport potential. While most players actually want to play other modes aswell, maybe even more then they want to play Conquest.
The fun of the players who bought and support this game is being downplayed for the sake of elevating GW2 to be a serious competitive game. Which it is not, and never will be.

Mif.3471:

Aneu.1748:

UrMom.4205:

I got nothing against GvG, but at the same time if they put in some sort of spvp style gvg arena wouldn’t that take a lot of players out of WvW? That would make WvW worse for a lot of players.

Lets not try to derail this thread. This has very little, if anything at all, to do with GvG.

Meanwhile half his video is ranting that WvW isn’t GvG.

I stopped listening after I noticed that… The video summation: “im mad there is no gvg and here are my leaks that tell me what i already know” umm congratz??? I’m all for GvG but spamming twitch channels and calling people out is not how to get something implemented.

Not to mention, he probably screwed over A LOT of people with those leaks. WAY TO GO!

Aneu.1748:

In every MMO there are “pillars” of the community that should be respected. Even if they may be egotistical crazies, their achievements give them clout and thus their points should be taken far more seriously than that of an “unknown” source so to speak.

Whether anyone wishes to agree with this or not is another topic all together but generally this is how an approach should be made towards these kinds of issues. Sacrx has the ear of a lot of people, he has the respect of a lot of people and even though quite a lot of people dislike him as a person that does not mean they respect him any less nor does it mean his points are any less valid. To not respond to his points is not just an insult to him it is an insult to anyone who puts the amount of effort into the game that he has and spreads the message of “We don’t particularly care about your input or your passion”. That is the wrong message to send.

He lost all of his credibility and respect when he decided to leak all the stuff he leaked. No one at ArenaNet is going to respond to him.

You talk about respecting pillars of the community while Sacrx totally disrespected any trust ArenaNet gave him.

You talk about that not responding would insult him while he clearly insulted ArenaNet’s NDA.

It’s guys like Sacrx that are an anchor to this community, not a pillar.
It’s not because I don’t like the guy, because I don’t even know him. But he doesn’t sound like the type of guy who sounds reasonable and understanding.

Which is what Laure is pointing out. He might have made some good points, and some general concerns, but he definitely doesn’t deserve ArenaNet’s attention one single bit.

LilMcGinley.3890:

Mif.3471:

Aneu.1748:

UrMom.4205:

I got nothing against GvG, but at the same time if they put in some sort of spvp style gvg arena wouldn’t that take a lot of players out of WvW? That would make WvW worse for a lot of players.

Lets not try to derail this thread. This has very little, if anything at all, to do with GvG.

Meanwhile half his video is ranting that WvW isn’t GvG.

I stopped listening after I noticed that… The video summation: “im mad there is no gvg and here are my leaks that tell me what i already know” umm congratz??? I’m all for GvG but spamming twitch channels and calling people out is not how to get something implemented.

Not to mention, he probably screwed over A LOT of people with those leaks. WAY TO GO!

Although he didn’t act correctly on breaking his NDA, the brought up some critical questions. A lot of the WvW community take him and his guild as a example on how a competitive WvW should be. That’s why this subject is now taking enormous proportions…

It’s the facts that were given not the person, not the opinions, the facts.
And a lot of these facts were already speculated by many people for a long time, that’s why its bringing up so much talk

Terrahero.9358:

GvG ofcourse would not work well as an e-sport, if e-sport is your goal you dont do 20v20 its to messy. No one can see whats going on as a spectator.

And yet, its the only thing played competetivly in GW2 and activly spectated by players to the point where they dont even kill enemies next to them. Its an all borderland event that bring three enemy servers together in a way that Arenanet never intended. Have you ever seen anyone in the crowd shout “scatter, I cant see whats going on, scatter!!!”

How many people spectate your random sPvP solo tournament match?

FrizzFreston.5290:

He lost all of his credibility and respect when he decided to leak all the stuff he leaked. No one at ArenaNet is going to respond to him.

You talk about respecting pillars of the community while Sacrx totally disrespected any trust ArenaNet gave him.

You talk about that not responding would insult him while he clearly insulted ArenaNet’s NDA.

It’s guys like Sacrx that are an anchor to this community, not a pillar.
It’s not because I don’t like the guy, because I don’t even know him. But he doesn’t sound like the type of guy who sounds reasonable and understanding.

Which is what Laure is pointing out. He might have made some good points, and some general concerns, but he definitely doesn’t deserve ArenaNet’s attention one single bit.

Maybe he doesn’t deserve their attention, but we do. We now have these facts (thanks to Sacrx), which means we’re going to be asking questions, and we expect them to be addressed.

If you think this is all just about one man expressing his opinion you need to take a look around you.

Dawdler.8521:

Terrahero.9358:

GvG ofcourse would not work well as an e-sport, if e-sport is your goal you dont do 20v20 its to messy. No one can see whats going on as a spectator.

And yet, its the only thing played competetivly in GW2 and activly spectated by players to the point where they dont even kill enemies next to them. Its an all borderland event that bring three enemy servers together in a way that Arenanet never intended. Have you ever seen anyone in the crowd shout “scatter, I cant see whats going on, scatter!!!”

How many people spectate your random sPvP solo tournament match?

Its spectated by players who intimately know the game and its mechanics themselves. e-sport goes beyond that.
Starcraft is a great example of an e-sport. I dont play Starcraft 2 or even Starcraft 1. I can still watch and actually enjoy a competitive Starcraft match.

If you dont play gw2, probably even upto a certain level of experience, GvG will just look like a giant clusterkitten of people wailling on eachother. That doesnt work as an e-sport, so if thats you’re goal that just wont work. You cannot have an e-sport or any sport in general where the focus lies with 40 people all at once.

Doesnt mean it isnt enjoyable for the players. And thats kinda where i wanted to go with what i said. Anet is making design choices for the sake of e-sport and e-sport crowds and not to just make the game more fun for the people who actually play it.

Its why we have been playing Conquest for over a year now. Becuase its just 5v5, and the action is usually taking place in 1, sometimes 2 places, to make it easier to watch. Thats the players anet tried to cultivate, because thats much better suited for a crowd to watch. Adding other gamemodes would dilute that pool of potential e-sport players.

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

Tell me how this sPvP meta of passive traits, run of the mill builds, cooldown spam, and node camping/flipping (combat avoidance) allows individual skill to shine.
(Other than the top level perhaps and even then dodge spam wins since asurans have kitten attack animations.)

At least a TDM mode is literally PvP and we would get 1v1 balance and not whatever we have now.

Terrahero.9358:

Its why we have been playing Conquest for over a year now. Becuase its just 5v5, and the action is usually taking place in 1, sometimes 2 places, to make it easier to watch.

http://www.ultraimg.com/images/9KU2V.gif

Bertrand.3057:

If you think this is all just about one man expressing his opinion you need to take a look around you.

I ask you to do the same, take a look on how you guys ask for things ^ ^

One often contradicts an opinion when what is uncongenial is really the tone in which it was conveyed.

Friedrich Nietzsche

AndrewSX.3794:

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

I didn’t said that pvp should be JUST killing things.
But a pvp mode where killing things is almost not involved is just as bad.

They’re on opposed ends of the spectrum, thus both unviable as competitive and esport scene.

And GvGs in wvw are pure DM only cause there is 0 dev or client support to player created content to do something deeper.

We really need to talk about esports? Fine, let’s look at MOBAs.
There is point objective play? Yes, turrets lanes pushing and overall goal is destroying enemy nexus.
There is required killing? Yes, both AI (jungling + waves of minions) and players.

As long as one thing is missing (WvW gvgs) or too weightened compared to the other (spvp) there is no argument.

i like how people get riled up when someone says gvg is aoespamming and then go ahead and make the same baseless claims about spvp.

let’s answer this the same way every gvg is aoespamming claim has been answerd:
you don’t even play spvp, how would you know?

How about a 10v10 or 15v15 with ‘assault’ map modes. Maps like in ET:RTCW, ET:QW, or Void Star in SWTOR.

I think they could really improve not only SPvP, but the GvG aspect as well. It would be nice to see some dynamic content…

besaah.2516:

AndrewSX.3794:

FirstBlood.7359:

AndrewSX.3794:

2 issues.

Objective based modes are NOT a real pvp. Holding stuff =/= killing stuff. Which is one of the various reasons Spvp is failing hard, and in wvw you can see whole zergs waypoint out of towers where they’ve bunkered in to avoid fighting.

Second, at least in 20 vs. 20 you use your character, instead of an arrocart.

Tell me: How many competitive successful games use pure deathmatch? How many competitive successful games use 20 vs 20?

Not a single one. The ugly thing that calls itself GvG constructs an enviroment that renders invidividual skill irrelevant.

I didn’t said that pvp should be JUST killing things.
But a pvp mode where killing things is almost not involved is just as bad.

They’re on opposed ends of the spectrum, thus both unviable as competitive and esport scene.

And GvGs in wvw are pure DM only cause there is 0 dev or client support to player created content to do something deeper.

We really need to talk about esports? Fine, let’s look at MOBAs.
There is point objective play? Yes, turrets lanes pushing and overall goal is destroying enemy nexus.
There is required killing? Yes, both AI (jungling + waves of minions) and players.

As long as one thing is missing (WvW gvgs) or too weightened compared to the other (spvp) there is no argument.

i like how people get riled up when someone says gvg is aoespamming and then go ahead and make the same baseless claims about spvp.

let’s answer this the same way every gvg is aoespamming claim has been answerd:
you don’t even play spvp, how would you know?

Did i say “You don’t even play GvG, how would you know?”? Nope.
Did is say “GvG new esport!”? Nope.

They’re on opposed ends of the spectrum, thus both unviable as competitive and esport scene.

Sorry but i don’t see where you’re getting all the “riled up” about GvG over spvp.

I’ve just trashed both.

Anet won’t respond for the simple fact that his video includes leaked, “speculative” patch notes. It’s the same reason all the leaked patch notes threads were closed. There may be some uncomfortable questions in that video, but they’re unwillingness to respond comes down to forum rules. If the video had been constructed in a way that did not include things that should not be publicly accessible, anet might respond. If his rant was well structured and less abrasive, a response would be much more likely.