Guild Wars 2

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

ThomasC.1056:

lil devils x.6071:

Actually they DID advertise it as " Large scale PvP" and stated that was what the players asked for and was giving us when they discussed the results of the surveys they used to create this game. They specifically told us the players asked for large scale PvP, that they heard us and they were giving it to us. So YES, they not only advertises it as large scale PvP, they outright told us that is what they were giving us and why many bought the game.
Raiding castles is still nonstop PvP if implemented properly. Players fighting other players over objectives = WvW. " nonstop PvP action" should be players fighting other players nonstop over objectives. I am not sure what you are understanding that to be.

PvD undefended structures on the other hand has no place in a PvP game mode, nor should it be rewarded.

I was there in the beginning too… Yet, many things changed since then in WvW, PvP and PvE, so it feels more relevant to look at what they advertise now, instead of sticking to what they used to advertise, even if I understand the disappointement.

As much as I understand their official site, the main focus of WvW seem to be taking on and holding objectives (and thus, PPT). And in the process, you may encounter opponents, thus have PvP. Not necessarily in a big scale, by the way.
If no player defends an objective, then you can take it on your own, just by opening it, and fighting the NPCs. That’s more or less impossible to avoid in a 1 week persistent map. It’s hard to have a sufficient amount of players any time, everywhere.

There’s here a slight difference with using objectives as an excuse to do (I exaggerate on purpose) blob vs. blob (what many ppl understand as “large scale PvP”) in the middle of a field, with no interest in camps, keeps or towers. And there’s such a biais currently in WvW, as I stated in another post, where I related 2 comms blob vs blobbing in the field amongst green objectives (we play red) and not caring about our red towers and camps being taken over. We were players who took those objectives, and raised them to T1, and we were disgusted.

In a nutshell, and from what I understand from updates and official site, ANet expects players to focus on objectives, ways to take them, upgrade them, get benefit from them, and hold them ; and have large scale PvP at various stages of the process.They do not expect players to focus on looking for a big crowd to fight in some kind of large scale courtyard ; and not care much about objectives which would be mere “PvE gimmicks”.

Since you have been here as well, you would know that the reason players moved to the field and stopped messing with the objectives and caring about the score was due to the Arrow cart damage increase on players and the rewarding of PvD. Winning became an embarrassment, not something players were proud of. Players started out in the objectives and caring about the score, but due to Anets decisions, they changed that. Anet has to change the way they treat WvW for players to care again.

They moved away from the arrow carts, and if they want players to return to the objectives they need to change siege vs player and the way it is rewarded. The focus should be on players fighting other players over objectives and to get it to return to that they need to make necessary changes to correct the problems otherwise it will never change and only go downhill from there long term. Currently die fast, go back and PVD undefended structure have your zerge jump on siege inside objectives and not fight = WIN. That has to change if they want players to care about winning again.

There are multiple ways to accomplish that easily. One, for example, would be to use the objectives to just “BUFF” the fights, not score on it’s own. Instead the objective gives players the most loot and PPK while fighting over it instead. That way the objective is actually MORE valuable than it is currently, but doesn’t actually do score points on it’s own without players doing something to earn it. If you only score points and get loot while fighting other players over yaks, towers, sentries, camps, keeps then the objectives actually matter, it is not an embarrassment to win, and players are willing to fight over them as they should have been all along. Players fighting in the fields and not caring about the score or objectives is due to the game being broken and needing to be fixed, not because they players are actually doing something wrong. Fix the game and players will play it and enjoy it that way.

Every time you make kitten up like statistics and make lump assumptions of who did what and why, you just look like an idiot and invalidate any argument you may have.

I’m getting real tired of seeing you talk like you speak for every kittening player in the game… And making up bullkitten about the maps being the reason players were lost or gained, it’s just kittening rediculous.

Hey I’ve been here since obt1 and I left the game right when HOT came out TOO… Guess WHAT…. IT wasnt due to kittening DBL…….. I came back later TOO… Guess what… it wasnt because of kittening ABL..

I don’t know why I’m surprised though… Coming from KILL who spews nonsense daily in WvW about if you aren’t on a melee train class and not on TS you don’t deserve to WvW and are inferior to KILL…. Such ego’s.

Yea.. Not sure who kittened in your cheerios but No need to " invent" stats. They should outright email poll past and present WvW players over a certain rank and stop assuming what people want and don’t want. They can actually get back old players if they find out why they left and address the issues.

Here this may help you get a grasp on how this came about:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Timeline-Situation-Explained/first#post6083538

Not speaking for every player of course, only the ones who I asked specifically what it would take to get them back to the game, which happen to be quite a few. One of my multigame RL college guilds ( over 2,000 members) actually are in numerous guilds on many servers both Eu and NA servers on this game, and the other guilds I am in here also have quite a few players that were affected by this. I play this with real friends and family, so yes I do care whether or not my friends are happy with the game, even if we disagree with what will make “us” happy to play it. ( Get this.. I don’t actually mind going to the DBL so much, but those I want to play with DO mind is the issue and they left the game over it. Enough of my friends left the game over it that we would no longer play this game and have to find a new game to play together if this isn’t resolved). I do not recall ever saying you came back for the ABL, so sure whatever your reason for coming back is your reason, not everyone else’s. I never left, but have plenty of friends and family who did, and will do so again if they bring the DBL back.

I primarily play Necro, not a melee class, but will switch if we are short heavies as needed since I play for the team ,not about just doing whatever I want. What classes and builds are played depend on party composition so you can have a properly formed squad, so I change according to what is needed. Every player should be on voice coms however, for communication purposes so they know what is happening in the game and do not miss 99% of the calls made.

I do not recall ever calling anyone " inferior". In fact, I am the one who says people should be nicer to " uplevels" and help them rather than discourage them. Everyone was new at some point. If you ever get to a point that you don’t think you need to evaluate what you are doing or have room for improvement and listen to criticism, you have gotten to the point you should / uninstall and find a new hobby.

Not sure what got your undies in a bunch, but I think you may be a tad mistaken about what you think is going on here.

lil devils x.6071:

too long winded.

You kittened in my cheerios.

Thanks for highlighting that the population declines had little to do with DBL and started long before.

As for the inferior comment.

Realize I am on MAG.. I see every single day KILL tag kittening and moaning in /map-/team at people if they play something like thief or ranger, telling them to leave WVW… I see the same attitude from KILL tags *every single day, regarding those who can’t or don’t want to be on TS with the server.

Not everyone likes voice comms or can use them, it’s fine to ask people to join you but your guild really needs to stop belittling people if they don’t.

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

too long winded.

You kittened in my cheerios.

Thanks for highlighting that the population declines had little to do with DBL and started long before.

As for the inferior comment.

Realize I am on MAG.. I see every single day KILL tag kittening and moaning in /map-/team at people if they play something like thief or ranger, telling them to leave WVW… I see the same attitude from KILL tags *every single day, regarding those who can’t or don’t want to be on TS with the server.

Not everyone likes voice comms or can use them, it’s fine to ask people to join you but your guild really needs to stop belittling people if they don’t.

Of course ONLY players from my guild hates rangers. Mhmm… I am sure that must be the case. Every commander has their play style, and we have many different commanders with different play styles. Choosing to not play as team in a team ( server vs server) game mode will always catch flak no matter what team sport it is you are playing. If you cant hear what people are saying, of course you miss what is going on and anger your teammates. That should be expected regardless of what team you play for. It is like standing in center field and letting the ball fall in front of you and expecting no one to yell at you for it.

Of course there was a decline prior to the DBL, I wasn’t aware anyone said there was not. The game just started hemorrhaging players at a much higher rate due to the DBL, not that it was the ONLY thing running players off. In fact the post you quoted above of mine were highlighting two of the other things upsetting players. Rewarding PvD and Siege damage on players are more reasons. I was under the impression though this particular topic was the impact of the DBLs on the game, not the other reasons players left. Players have been leaving for many reasons, this just happens to be a big one.

We were discussing THIS decline, not the others in this topic though since this was about the DBL’s here. The other reasons players left do not negate the masses who left over the DBL however.

I didn’t do anything to your cheerios. I Put Tabasco sauce in my brothers Spaghettios, not cheerios TYVM.

Being linked with Mag I avoid [KILL] they will run to orange swords and ignore all PPT. The worst squirrels ever.

lil devils x.6071:

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

too long winded.

You kittened in my cheerios.

Thanks for highlighting that the population declines had little to do with DBL and started long before.

As for the inferior comment.

Realize I am on MAG.. I see every single day KILL tag kittening and moaning in /map-/team at people if they play something like thief or ranger, telling them to leave WVW… I see the same attitude from KILL tags *every single day, regarding those who can’t or don’t want to be on TS with the server.

Not everyone likes voice comms or can use them, it’s fine to ask people to join you but your guild really needs to stop belittling people if they don’t.

Of course ONLY players from my guild hates rangers. Mhmm… I am sure that must be the case. Every commander has their play style, and we have many different commanders with different play styles. Choosing to not play as team in a team ( server vs server) game mode will always catch flak no matter what team sport it is you are playing. If you cant hear what people are saying, of course you miss what is going on and anger your teammates. That should be expected regardless of what team you play for. It is like standing in center field and letting the ball fall in front of you and expecting no one to yell at you for it.

Of course there was a decline prior to the DBL, I wasn’t aware anyone said there was not. The game just started hemorrhaging players at a much higher rate due to the DBL, not that it was the ONLY thing running players off. In fact the post you quoted above of mine were highlighting two of the other things upsetting players. Rewarding PvD and Siege damage on players are more reasons. I was under the impression though this particular topic was the impact of the DBLs on the game, not the other reasons players left. Players have been leaving for many reasons, this just happens to be a big one.

We were discussing THIS decline, not the others in this topic though since this was about the DBL’s here. The other reasons players left do not negate the masses who left over the DBL however.

I didn’t do anything to your cheerios. I Put Tabasco sauce in my brothers Spaghettios, not cheerios TYVM.

It’s like you think the whole server is part of your guild.. These are mandates you put on your guild not across a whole public server.

I do play as a “team” when I’m with my “team” aka my guild, maybe I would be willing to be on TS with them, but usually not.

People have personal reasons for not using TS or playing whatever class they want. Your guild has a right to deny such things within your own politics, but not across the whole server.

Bullies.

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

dank.3680:

lil devils x.6071:

too long winded.

You kittened in my cheerios.

Thanks for highlighting that the population declines had little to do with DBL and started long before.

As for the inferior comment.

Realize I am on MAG.. I see every single day KILL tag kittening and moaning in /map-/team at people if they play something like thief or ranger, telling them to leave WVW… I see the same attitude from KILL tags *every single day, regarding those who can’t or don’t want to be on TS with the server.

Not everyone likes voice comms or can use them, it’s fine to ask people to join you but your guild really needs to stop belittling people if they don’t.

Of course ONLY players from my guild hates rangers. Mhmm… I am sure that must be the case. Every commander has their play style, and we have many different commanders with different play styles. Choosing to not play as team in a team ( server vs server) game mode will always catch flak no matter what team sport it is you are playing. If you cant hear what people are saying, of course you miss what is going on and anger your teammates. That should be expected regardless of what team you play for. It is like standing in center field and letting the ball fall in front of you and expecting no one to yell at you for it.

Of course there was a decline prior to the DBL, I wasn’t aware anyone said there was not. The game just started hemorrhaging players at a much higher rate due to the DBL, not that it was the ONLY thing running players off. In fact the post you quoted above of mine were highlighting two of the other things upsetting players. Rewarding PvD and Siege damage on players are more reasons. I was under the impression though this particular topic was the impact of the DBLs on the game, not the other reasons players left. Players have been leaving for many reasons, this just happens to be a big one.

We were discussing THIS decline, not the others in this topic though since this was about the DBL’s here. The other reasons players left do not negate the masses who left over the DBL however.

I didn’t do anything to your cheerios. I Put Tabasco sauce in my brothers Spaghettios, not cheerios TYVM.

It’s like you think the whole server is part of your guild.. These are mandates you put on your guild not across a whole public server.

I do play as a “team” when I’m with my “team” aka my guild, maybe I would be willing to be on TS with them, but usually not.

People have personal reasons for not using TS or playing whatever class they want. Your guild has a right to deny such things within your own politics, but not across the whole server.

Bullies.

WvW is not GvG, it is server vs server. The entire server is YOUR team. You put these mandates on your team because that is the team you play for. Of course if you are standing out in center field your team is going to yell at you to get the ball. That is how team sports are played. This has nothing to do with a guild, it has everything to do with players on your team expecting all the players on their team to play as a team.

If this were only GvG, not WvW they would have nothing to say as you would not be on their team. You choose to be on their team every time you step foot in WvW, so you are either on the team or your not. You should expect your team to care what you are doing that affects your team. Playing whatever class you want is like everyone on the baseball team trying to play first base when you only need one first baseman. The moment you step into WvW you are on the same team regardless of how you or they feel about it, so we try to work as any team would.

Tyler, curious here… is it possible for you guys to pull stats like, how many people got the in-game notification about a poll vs how many people actually voted.

Just curious as to what the voting percentage is like in this poll, I mean 75% 15,000 is a lot less than 75% of 250,000 votes. Just interested in how well these polls actually reflect the general opinion of people playing the game vs people active on forums or on reddit.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

Why does this poll not have an option to remove the Desert Borderlands?

• As per the above, we require 75% to make a major change (like permanently removing DBL.) If we try to ask two, or more, 75% questions in a single poll neither is likely to achieve that requirement.
• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Thanks.

I want to be honest with you, most players are here for a good mass open space pvp experience. Those dbl maps were designed with the intent of creating a different experience. When dbl maps were introduced, y’all took away 75% of the open space mass pvp experience.

The best suggestion I can give you is to revamp the dbl map by making more open spaces and make it more horizontal. Any future maps should follow that formula. And statistically y’all know EB is the most popular map so let that be an indication of what style most players want.

If you want to expand wvw in any meaningful way someday and cater to different playstyles, then make wvw a full fledged 3 realm experience with many different maps that cater to many different styles of play.

Not being disrespectful to you or the team, but I’m hard pressed to think most players will stick around when the predecessor to DAoC comes out if wvw remains as is.

Edit- Unless y’all plan to revamp dbl, fully expect it to be voted out.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

Why does this poll not have an option to remove the Desert Borderlands?

• As per the above, we require 75% to make a major change (like permanently removing DBL.) If we try to ask two, or more, 75% questions in a single poll neither is likely to achieve that requirement.
• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Based on what was seen on forums pre DBL going away and post DBL. There is a 0% chance there wouldn’t be QQing in some form. Day after Dbl went away there were posts (and more then a few about it) complaining that it went away. A medium of a combo of them seems the most sensible answer.

Now if only we could get the all underwater map !

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week

I am looking forward to voting to remove this map forever.

lil devils x.6071:

WvW is not GvG, it is server vs server. The entire server is YOUR team.

This is no longer the case with the linking of servers, especially for the ‘guest’ servers, and especially for those servers that find themselves in a less than ideal pairing.

You also state, “You choose to be on their team every time you step foot in WvW”……this, too, is no longer the case, as guest servers did not have any sort of free choice of who they got paired with.

Your ‘logic’ might make sense before pairing/linking existed, but since that isn’t the case now, your statements on teams/servers are irrelevant.

Vavume.8065:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week

I am looking forward to voting to remove this map forever.

It will certainly be interesting to see the percentages on that poll.

This one is big enough, hoping it will get a splash page ad as well as the in game mail. Thanks for the update.

Teon.5168:

Vavume.8065:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week

I am looking forward to voting to remove this map forever.

It will certainly be interesting to see the percentages on that poll.

I’ll be properly on tenderhooks for the entire duration of that poll, I imagine.

Actually. No offense, but if the removal poll voids this one, does it not make sense to just end this one for now and post the other since it has defacto become official that there will be a poll? This one can be re-instated if needed afterwards. The reason I say this is if removing DBL does meet its required amounts for removal then players might opt for the next WvW priority to be a new map over scoring. Just a thought. A voided poll just has a bad feel to it.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

When you go to make this poll, please put an option for keeping the desert borderlands but with a community driven revamp where we the players can bring forward the issues we have with the map, and the vote on changes to come.

I think thematically, visually the desert borderland map is amazing. I also like the various choke points for fights. In contrast things like the layout/scale, elevation and strategical value of objectives are problematic. It’s also very slow to get around.

I would hate to see the map scrapped for good.

Eval.2371:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

When you go to make this poll, please put an option for a keeping the desert borderlands but with a community driven revamp where we the players can bring forward the issues we have with the map, and the vote on changes to come.

I think thematically, visually the desert borderland map is amazing. I also like the various choke points for fights. In contrast things like the layout/scale, elevation and strategical value of objectives are problematic. It’s also very slow to get around.

Exactly.

Those maps need work. If Anet is not willing to do the work then just trash them now and don’t bother voting.

Eval.2371:

When you go to make this poll, please put an option for a keeping the desert borderlands but with a community driven revamp where we the players can bring forward the issues we have with the map, and the vote on changes to come.

I think thematically, visually the desert borderland map is amazing. I also like the various choke points for fights. In contrast things like the layout/scale, elevation and strategical value of objectives are problematic. It’s also very slow to get around.

If they are talking about removal, probably need to keep the poll to a YES/NO to reduce confusion. Additional polls can be added later but are moot if removal is opted. That’s what people are having issue with on current poll. Its can be interpreted in a couple of different ways with how it is worded.

just shoot the thing already

Swagger.1459:

Eval.2371:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

When you go to make this poll, please put an option for a keeping the desert borderlands but with a community driven revamp where we the players can bring forward the issues we have with the map, and the vote on changes to come.

I think thematically, visually the desert borderland map is amazing. I also like the various choke points for fights. In contrast things like the layout/scale, elevation and strategical value of objectives are problematic. It’s also very slow to get around.

Exactly.

Those maps need work. If Anet is not willing to do the work then just trash them now and don’t bother voting.

lol. I do see both your points, I guess the question will be what level of change sways someone on a map (and not talking just this one) that will make someone like it. And then how much effort makes sense versus just creating a new map. For example I think Anet would say to flatten DBL it would be easier to just start over versus put something in the middle of the map. So to that I see you point about a keep but will need changes, but that would need to add into the keep votes versus pull votes away.

Akkeros.1675:

just shoot the thing already

Where the “thing” you want to shoot is the ability to vote of the players that are wanting to scrap it completely without even seeing what improvements iterative changes can lead to, right? =P

*edited to satisfy my social anxiety, though now it’s a wordy messy mouthful. Ah well.

Rashagar.8349:

Teon.5168:

Vavume.8065:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week

I am looking forward to voting to remove this map forever.

It will certainly be interesting to see the percentages on that poll.

I’ll be properly on tenderhooks for the entire duration of that poll, I imagine.

I have a feeling that the percentages on that poll will surprise ALL of us.

Unfortunately if the QQers get what they want and they remove the map forever. I don’t see anet ever making that big a time investment to WvW ever again. I am worried this will just be the end of anything new. Odds are the only changes WvW will get from here on (if such a poll passes in there favor) are back ground changes. (like the scoring/reward changes)

If they throw out all the work they put into DBL. Why in the hells would they make the same risk again in the future? With that giant red warning sign over there heads the entire time.

Edited for less generalizing/assuming.

Shadelang.3012:

Unfortunately if the QQers get what they want and they remove the map forever. I don’t see anet ever making that big a time investment to WvW ever again. Pretty sure this will just be the end of anything new. Odds are the only changes WvW will get from here on are back ground changes. (like the scoring/reward changes)

If they throw out all the work they put into DBL. Why in the hells would they make the same risk again in the future? With that giant red warning sign over there heads the entire time.

Because with their new found communication abilities they can create a map that the majority of the community will enjoy.

Maybe the dbl isn’t broken beyond repair but it is at the point where it is so broken that it would be more work to fix it than it would be to create something new and better. Also a new map will come without the prejudice attached to the dbl.

Shadelang.3012:

Unfortunately if the QQers get what they want and they remove the map forever. I don’t see anet ever making that big a time investment to WvW ever again. Pretty sure this will just be the end of anything new. Odds are the only changes WvW will get from here on are back ground changes. (like the scoring/reward changes)

If they throw out all the work they put into DBL. Why in the hells would they make the same risk again in the future? With that giant red warning sign over there heads the entire time.

In what way would that be beneficial to their game to make it grow? Learning from past mistakes means you actually learn from them. The issue is not new maps, the issue was the focus of the map.

Players WANT new WvW maps, they didn’t start polling players to see what they wanted until AFTER they made the bouncy choking PvE gobbly kitten map, not before. The problem is they put in all that work going the opposite direction of what players wanted instead of putting in all that work going in the direction players wanted. Just because they went the opposite direction that players wanted does not mean they cannot put forth the effort to go in the other direction now that they know that. This happened because they didn’t listen, if they listen the outcome will be much better.

They have a chance to make this the best large scale PvP game on the market, they would be crazy to let that chance get away from them. They can do it if they figure out what it takes to accomplish that goal and go for it.

Shadelang.3012:

Unfortunately if the QQers get what they want and they remove the map forever. I don’t see anet ever making that big a time investment to WvW ever again. I am worried this will just be the end of anything new. Odds are the only changes WvW will get from here on (if such a poll passes in there favor) are back ground changes. (like the scoring/reward changes)

If they throw out all the work they put into DBL. Why in the hells would they make the same risk again in the future? With that giant red warning sign over there heads the entire time.

Remember, it has to get 75%. And it might get that. But, there is also a real possibility that it won’t. No sense in getting concerned about it until the poll is upon us.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

Why does this poll not have an option to remove the Desert Borderlands?

• As per the above, we require 75% to make a major change (like permanently removing DBL.) If we try to ask two, or more, 75% questions in a single poll neither is likely to achieve that requirement.
• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Thank you. I really do appreciate the efforts you guys have been making reaching out to everyone and trying to make a difference here.

I do wish these polls would be sent to past and present WvW players via email so you have a better chance at bringing in players who already left and increasing the game population longer term. Players will come back if you address the issues that made them leave in the first place, and reaching out to them would show how much things have changed from how they were.

For so long players concerns seemed to fall on deaf ears, reaching out to those players now would make them realize that is no longer the case. I think most of us here all want to see this game mode flourish and grow and bring in more players to where you need more servers, not less. Reaching out like this I think is a great way to get that started.

Supernatural Dawn.3194:

Being linked with Mag I avoid [KILL] they will run to orange swords and ignore all PPT. The worst squirrels ever.

lmao, according to the salt forums all we do is pvd

I am quite shocked that the count for rotating borders is 28%. People do realize that means three freaking months of only DBL? Even if you absolutely love DBL, it would still be torture for the majority of the community. Is that really worth it over having either 1 or 2 DBL that you could still play on every single day if you wanted (because I doubt it would be crowded)? Honestly?! And after three months of DBL, we’ll be back to the map those people hate. For three freaking months. People actually want that rather than having the choice to play what they prefer?

Under the assumption that mix count both versions and pick the one with the most votes, that’s 65% in favor with 2 alpine/1 dbl being the clear majority. Close enough to 75% if the numbers remain at the end of the poll I think :/

I like Alpine BL alot, and dislike the Desert BL alot.
There is little that is going to break the stigma of dbl being bad regardless of how much dev time is thrown at it. It’s been repeated so many times, it’s engrained like waking up 1min before your alarm clock every mourning.

I feel for the devs who put the time into Desert BL :-(

Justine.6351:

I like Alpine BL alot, and dislike the Desert BL alot.
There is little that is going to break the stigma of dbl being bad regardless of how much dev time is thrown at it. It’s been repeated so many times, it’s engrained like waking up 1min before your alarm clock every mourning.

I feel for the devs who put the time into Desert BL :-(

They actually needed very little, which was shown in the update (just removing the barricades made it 10x more enjoyable to run around on). It’s not perfect and could use plenty of tweaks (I still consider tower placement to be fundamentally flawed), but still.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

I get it, but you gave way too many options to have achieved a 75%. This poll should have really been split in to 3 different polls. One would be “2 alpine, 1 dbl” or “2 dbl, 1 alpine”, if 75% decided “2 alpine, 1 dbl” which is suspect is HIGHLY likely, then you move to “2 alpine 1 dbl” vs “rotating bls where its 3 dbl for 3 months then 3 alpine for 3 months” – THAT would have given you REAL results. I think you should try this poll over because the results are too skewed by too many options.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

While what you guys did to DBL was improvement, it still needs A LOT more improvement to be made viable to many WvW veterans like myself. If it goes on rotation and I have to deal with playing on that map or playing on EBG all the time again, you’ll be forcing myself and my guild out of WvW and probably out of the game again..

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

This is really the best idea I’ve heard so far and I’m glad you’re willing to at least ask the hard question that I am sure your team doesn’t want to know the real answer to.

Dawdler.8521:

Justine.6351:

I like Alpine BL alot, and dislike the Desert BL alot.
There is little that is going to break the stigma of dbl being bad regardless of how much dev time is thrown at it. It’s been repeated so many times, it’s engrained like waking up 1min before your alarm clock every mourning.

I feel for the devs who put the time into Desert BL :-(

They actually needed very little, which was shown in the update (just removing the barricades made it 10x more enjoyable to run around on). It’s not perfect and could use plenty of tweaks (I still consider tower placement to be fundamentally flawed), but still.

Agreed. Dbls still needs tweaks, but removing just the barricades made it a ton easier to get around.

Justine.6351:

I like Alpine BL alot, and dislike the Desert BL alot.
There is little that is going to break the stigma of dbl being bad regardless of how much dev time is thrown at it. It’s been repeated so many times, it’s engrained like waking up 1min before your alarm clock every mourning.

I feel for the devs who put the time into Desert BL :-(

My original suggestion was they allowed time and a buffer before even trying to bring up the DBL due to how much negativity is currently attached to it. There are a lot of hard feelings here from players who had their guilds torn apart over and destroyed entirely due this map and not having anyone seeming to listen to them for so long.

My original suggestion was bring back ABL ( then they did that) while players wait, then create a map from the ground up that is completely non desert related, say jungle, or lush or whatever, just as long as it is NOT desert. This map needs to be mild, skills friendly terrain, focused on benefiting every classes play style and keeping players in the nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on it. You start from spawn focusing on the player experience , 3 seconds out of spawn you hit an objective. Why do players want to fight over that objective ( give them a reason to) what strategic value to other targets does that objective hold? How does the battlefield work for both large scale and small scale fights for every class? 3 seconds.. you hit another objective..

The map needs to be designed with direct routes, bring players together to want to fight over objectives in open spaces focusing on enhancing the players PvP abilities.

They create this buffer map, then send it to beta and ask for actual feedback and poll on that feedback and make necessary adjustments according to the feedback, then test it again. When the community is happy with the map release it. Once the buffer map is released they can go back to fixing the DBL.

Then beta test the fixed DBL according to the feedback and not release it again until the community is happy with it.

Then players will be willing to give the DBL another shot if they actually show that things have changed, but trying to push it too soon the map would be better off scrapped than implemented without more repairs, community feedback and beta tests to make it a better map. Trying to do it too soon, players will not even try it after they make changes, they will think they already did.

Puck.9612:

Because with their new found communication abilities they can create a map that the majority of the community will enjoy.

I honestly find this unlikely, no matter how much communication there would be it would only reach minority of the player base, unless they would be willing to throw some really raw unfinished prototypes in the actual live game as they would be working on this hypothetical map. There is only so much you can do with polls and surveys, lot of things that sound cool on paper actually aren’t good in game.

Puck.9612:

Also a new map will come without the prejudice attached to the dbl.

This I can agree with 100%, however, after DBL (especially if it is removed) to get a poll passed that would cause them to work on new maps would be a first hurdle, and it would also require them to want to put it up for a vote which they might not want to do any time in the foreseeable future.

XTR.9604:

I get it, but you gave way too many options to have achieved a 75%. This poll should have really been split in to 3 different polls. One would be “2 alpine, 1 dbl” or “2 dbl, 1 alpine”, if 75% decided “2 alpine, 1 dbl” which is suspect is HIGHLY likely, then you move to “2 alpine 1 dbl” vs “rotating bls where its 3 dbl for 3 months then 3 alpine for 3 months” – THAT would have given you REAL results. I think you should try this poll over because the results are too skewed by too many options.

Agreed. The way the poll is worded right now, I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people voting “NO” that think their vote will count towards getting dbl removed. They’re going to be shocked when they realize that their no vote contributed to getting full dbl for 3 months at a time in the rotation with the abls.

Teon.5168:

Agreed. The way the poll is worded right now, I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people voting “NO” that think their vote will count towards getting dbl removed. They’re going to be shocked when they realize that their no vote contributed to getting full dbl for 3 months at a time in the rotation with the abls.

The polls should have been created in different order initially, however, too late for that now.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

…
What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Seriously? You’re willing to let a handful of internet trolls just smash the hard work your dev teams spent months on? This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. This is worse than when all those entitled little whiners just couldn’t live with how Mass Effect 3 ended. Buying a copy of a game should not make you feel like you have any right to decide what’s in it.

migellito.7301:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

…
What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Seriously? You’re willing to let a handful of internet trolls just smash the hard work your dev teams spent months on? This has got to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. This is worse than when all those entitled little whiners just couldn’t live with how Mass Effect 3 ended. Buying a copy of a game should not make you feel like you have any right to decide what’s in it.

They should email every past and present WvW player over a certain rank, not just a “handful” of internet trolls.

Really though, if they had listened in the first place and realized that they should put the DBL on ice and come out with a buffer map in the middle, this would not even be discussed right now. Pushing it too soon after you just got players back to the game after guilds were destroyed over this map= might as well trash the map because people will be angry and not even try it if you change it.

If they at least had a buffer map and did not release it live until it has community approval, they could go back and do the same with the desert while players are playing that map allowing players to see that it is actually different and not the same.

Dawdler.8521:

I am quite shocked that the count for rotating borders is 28%. People do realize that means three freaking months of only DBL? Even if you absolutely love DBL, it would still be torture for the majority of the community. Is that really worth it over having either 1 or 2 DBL that you could still play on every single day if you wanted (because I doubt it would be crowded)? Honestly?! And after three months of DBL, we’ll be back to the map those people hate. For three freaking months. People actually want that rather than having the choice to play what they prefer?

Under the assumption that mix count both versions and pick the one with the most votes, that’s 65% in favor with 2 alpine/1 dbl being the clear majority. Close enough to 75% if the numbers remain at the end of the poll I think :/

I’d bet that there are more than 3% worth of people who didn’t realize what they were voting for. I mean just look at how many votes Pat Buchanan got in Palm Beach County Florida in 2000.

Teon.5168:

lil devils x.6071:

WvW is not GvG, it is server vs server. The entire server is YOUR team.

This is no longer the case with the linking of servers, especially for the ‘guest’ servers, and especially for those servers that find themselves in a less than ideal pairing.

You also state, “You choose to be on their team every time you step foot in WvW”……this, too, is no longer the case, as guest servers did not have any sort of free choice of who they got paired with.

Your ‘logic’ might make sense before pairing/linking existed, but since that isn’t the case now, your statements on teams/servers are irrelevant.

The statements apply just the same regardless of who is on what server or whether or not servers are paired. You do not choose who is on your server with you. You do not choose who is on the server paired with you. It is all the same team regardless and treated no different than any other team. Why would server pairings have any impact on the fact it is still a team game mode? It is a team no matter how that team is created. The only way not to be on that team is to switch to another team ( server) or not play WvW.

You still do not choose who is on your server or servers ( team) with you regardless, and if you are standing in left field, people are still going to yell at you to get the ball.

Another horrible poll. You took no issues with the blob vs. blob issues, and still made it hard for servers that do not run 24/7 to compete well. WvW is so pointless when server populations are clearly not matched. How come you do not look at the times servers are actually populated and match servers ranked within population statistics?

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

Why does this poll not have an option to remove the Desert Borderlands?

• As per the above, we require 75% to make a major change (like permanently removing DBL.) If we try to ask two, or more, 75% questions in a single poll neither is likely to achieve that requirement.
• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

That is rather interesting, although wouldn’t it have made more sense to have a poll on whether or not we would want dbl back in the first place before having this poll to determine if we wanted a rotation or simultaneous implementation.

I am also curious as to what you guys might do with the dbl if such a poll were to take place, perhaps put it into Eotm? Or use it as a template for a pve or pvp map someday. I mean I don’t personally like it for wvw, but I think it would be good for other areas of the game.

I can’t wait for the poll to scrap/keep the dbl. This will finally shut up the qqers who think they speak for the whole community.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Why wasn’t this the first poll?

If you determine that one map is to be removed, there would be no reason for asking about a rotation preference. If both are kept then there’s a point to having this poll.

Asking which rotation preference we would like assumes we want a rotation in the first place.

This is, potentially, a very silly waste of time.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Hi guys, I just wanted to respond to a few concerns:

Why does this poll need a 75% majority?

• Honestly, we had a difficult time deciding if this poll should be decided by a simple majority, rather than a super majority. When we first decided to start polling, the team decided that whenever we are making a major change to the existing game, that change should require 75% of the community to agree to it. We wanted to avoid anything close to a 51/49 split. Mixed Borderlands definitely falls under the category of a major change to the existing game. However, what made the decision harder, was that polling only started relatively recently. Had this poll existed 6 months ago, before we ever started rotating borderlands, it likely would have been decided by a simple majority instead.

Why does this poll not have an option to remove the Desert Borderlands?

• As per the above, we require 75% to make a major change (like permanently removing DBL.) If we try to ask two, or more, 75% questions in a single poll neither is likely to achieve that requirement.
• Prior to this poll, the community reaction to the Desert Borderlands had seemed much more positive. Forum posts approved of the changes we had made to the map in the April 19th release, and were largely in agreement that the map had noticeably improved.
• We believed that those that were hostile to Desert would be less so if the Mixed Borderlands feature allowed Alpine to live in harmony with Desert, rather than replacing it for 3 months. So we wanted to provide this option before creating a poll about removing DBL altogether.

What’s next?

• We’ll poll the community to see if at least 75% of them would like to see the Desert Borderlands permanent removed. This won’t be next weeks poll, but likely the week after that.
• If players vote to remove DBL, then the results of this poll will be void (as we’ll only have one borderlands map.) Otherwise, we’ll move forwards with the results of this poll.

Why not put a option to completely change the map design for desert borderland and turn it into another ebg map and rotate it between current ebg map every quarterly and leave the three alplines map there untouched until you guys make another better borderland map which will actually play out like alpline strategically and everything else.

lil devils x.6071:

Why would server pairings have any impact on the fact it is still a team game mode?

Thanks. That is all I need to know about you and the guild you belong to.

3 More Days Left Till Poll Closes.

Based on Last Poll Closing in 5 Days…

Desert BL just needs a higher critical mass of players to be fun…imho.