Guild Wars 2

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

Despite dramatic recent improvements in communication from Tyler and the WvW team, there is a conspicuous silence around the lack of a “No DBL” option.

<snip>

The current options are designed to achieve your agenda of reinstating DBL while presenting it as a “player driven choice”.

I won’t speculate on any “agenda,” but the option should have been included. And that’s why I didn’t bother to vote. I wonder what percentage of players would have voted no DBL if the choice had been made available.

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

It wasn’t just your friendslist and guild roster, this happened regardless of tier, server, EU and NA servers both. It just got worse and worse and we just now began to have hope again when they brought back Alpine that they were listening. Players JUST came back and now they are ready to send them packing again. I won’t be able to convince anyone to come back this time if they mess it up again already.

Bandini.6185:

Jski.6180:

Its seems the 2 alpine bl and 1 desert bl going to win out

Unfortunately, you’re wrong. “Yes” has never reached 75% since the beginning of the poll, which means that rotation, though representing only 30%, wins.

Yeah, with this poll, we all lose and eventually anet loses.
good idea to do a poll (bonus point)
bad poll (lose a point)

i really hate seeing things get better, watching anet listen for a bit and then watch it slide back down again
The proof is in the pudding. And as Levar Burton would say, “but you don’t have to take my word for it” /rainbow flyby

ughhh

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten on you calling bullkitten. =P Not on the part about players leaving when they’re not having fun, but on the part that infers a causal relationship between a drop in wvw player population and the change to desert borderlands. It’s possible you’ve spent too long in an echo chamber hehe.

Edit I don’t mean to suggest that your personal experience is somehow wrong here, it’s just that it doesn’t coincide with my personal experience at all. Hope the tone of the above post doesn’t come across as really kittenish or anything.

Puck.9612:

I voted 2 alpine, 1 desert simply to minimize the damage that kitten map does to WvW.
If they had clearly stated they were willing to do a weekly rotation I would have voted for that, but 3 months of that terrible map would decimate the population just like it did last time.
I would rather permanently have 3 out of 4 maps be playable all the time and be stuck with 1 garbage map, rather than see another mass exodus because the queues make EBG impossible to get into and the deserted bl is all we have to play on.

This in no way means I prefer having 1 dbl.

I felt the exact same way.

I would prefer that the DBL go into the dustbin of history, never to be seen again. At least by having the Alpine BL available all the time, I won’t be tied to just EB for the three months that the awful DBL would be in the rotation.

LoL NooBs.5076:

To the DBL lovers: No, we don’t love ABL. No, we don’t take pleasure watching you suffer. It’s just that we can’t stand DBL.

I think that is one of the things that some are not understanding. Players LOVE new things when they are good. Players hate the DBL because it is not good. People just wanted to play on ABL until Anet makes the good WvW map the players deserve, not try to force this broken poo on them instead. They are not understanding that the players considered it unplayable at all.

The actual argument here is Wanting a map designed from the ground up with keeping players engaged with nonstop strategic, challenging, fun, PvP action the entire time they are on it vs wanting to play on a broken bouncy, gimmicky PvE wasting everyone’s time mess. Players would rather play on Alpine while they wait for a good map to be made, not have the DBL at all or never get new maps instead.

They actually put a map into live game play in a PvP game mode that some classes could not even use their skills on much of it and was abandoned during beta and wonder why players dont want to settle for them " making it playable" vs design one from the ground up that focuses on game play and player skills ? The entire map needs to be redone, the objectives need to be redone, the topography needs to be redone. It would be easier if they started over entirely and focused on player experience straight out of spawn. Straight out of spawn, 3 seconds hit objective, Why do players want to fight over that objective? Make it something worth fighting for so players WILL fight over it. What effect does that objective have on other nearby objectives? How does the terrain enhance each of the classes skills both Melee and ranged?.. another 3 seconds hit another objective.. ect

The DBL map was not designed for WvW or any other type of PvP game mode, it was just a mess..

Baldrick.8967:

The poll is also flawed as it gives no option on how long the rotation should last. Three months is WAY too long if they bring Deserted back on all three BL, so the lesser evil is to have two alpine one Deserted and then monitor the metrics as to how many play on each map (and exclude guild vs guild, as it would be the preferred map for that as easiest to load your entire guild in). Then just let Deserted die the death it deserves.

I believe they stated that one of the upcoming polls is going to be about pairing/bls time frame…..how often they should rotate/change.

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

I have a theory on why TC isn’t showing up. The current scoreboard has to be discouraging, especially with what TC is used to in T2. Which is a shame as I do get better fights out TC than I do YB.

Rashagar.8349:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten on you calling bullkitten. =P Not on the part about players leaving when they’re not having fun, but on the part that infers a causal relationship between a drop in wvw player population and the change to desert borderlands. It’s possible you’ve spent too long in an echo chamber hehe.

Edit I don’t mean to suggest that your personal experience is somehow wrong here, it’s just that it doesn’t coincide with my personal experience at all. Hope the tone of the above post doesn’t come across as really kittenish or anything.

No worries it made me chuckle. In my experience, DBLs were dead in T4 and they were largely dead in T1. Different strokes.

Rashagar.8349:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten on you calling bullkitten. =P Not on the part about players leaving when they’re not having fun, but on the part that infers a causal relationship between a drop in wvw player population and the change to desert borderlands. It’s possible you’ve spent too long in an echo chamber hehe.

Edit I don’t mean to suggest that your personal experience is somehow wrong here, it’s just that it doesn’t coincide with my personal experience at all. Hope the tone of the above post doesn’t come across as really kittenish or anything.

I’m going to have to 100% agree with gennyt, based on what I saw in my T1 server.

DBL was deserted (pun intended) and EB queued during off-primes.

People on my friend’s list stopped playing completely and I may as well have played a funeral dirge for the guild roster – RIP.

They returned when ABL was put back. Immediately.

EB queued nightly, as well as two ABLs.

And now, it’s starting to fall off again a bit since the pairings and the imminent return of at least one DBL.

@Hesacon, it’s more like the majority of the population will vote for the most palatable option thrown at them.

As you can see, the option of only ONE DBL is currently in the lead. And that’s the closest option to having NONE. It’s fairly obvious most people would have voted for no DBL if they had been given that choice.

But we’ll never know. Because we weren’t given that option.

Teon.5168:

Bandini.6185:

Jski.6180:

Its seems the 2 alpine bl and 1 desert bl going to win out

Unfortunately, you’re wrong. “Yes” has never reached 75% since the beginning of the poll, which means that rotation, though representing only 30%, wins.

I really think they’ll take it to a 2nd poll, with just the top two vote winners in the poll.

Why would they ??? It would be the same poll. They clearly stated :
As before, we’re looking for a 75% of those voting either “Yes” or “No” to agree to make the change that both borderlands should be available simultaneously. If 75% agree “Yes”, the most popular “Yes” option will be chosen.

Thanks, Tyler! Your response to the poll question was very clear and concise.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I just made a post, addressing these concerns, on page 5 of the official stickied thread, but I’m posting here too for additional visibility. I know a lot of players get into the habit of ignoring stickied posts or only looking at posts the first time they get a red reply.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-31-May-Mixed-Borderlands/page/5#post6185533

That’s what happens when sticky threads stay up there too long, tend to just ignore the top part of the forums. The top sticky in the wvw forums is now 3 years old and outdated. XD The general section has 8 stickies most of which have been there a while, most other forums have dates so you can see what’s been updated recently.

I kinda wish those sticked threads were a different color, and polls were also a different color so you can recognize them immediately.

gennyt.3428:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

I have a theory on why TC isn’t showing up. The current scoreboard has to be discouraging, especially with what TC is used to in T2. Which is a shame as I do get better fights out TC than I do YB.

I don’t know. Probably plays some part in it. My server hasn’t been paired with TC for long enough to really know what does or doesn’t discourage the average TC player.

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

I have a theory on why TC isn’t showing up. The current scoreboard has to be discouraging, especially with what TC is used to in T2. Which is a shame as I do get better fights out TC than I do YB.

I don’t know. Probably plays some part in it. My server hasn’t been paired with TC for long enough to really know what does or doesn’t discourage the average TC player.

It’s hard to get excited to lose a match that was decided the instant it was created. Blobs and server-stacking uber alles.

Heimlich.3065:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

I have a theory on why TC isn’t showing up. The current scoreboard has to be discouraging, especially with what TC is used to in T2. Which is a shame as I do get better fights out TC than I do YB.

I don’t know. Probably plays some part in it. My server hasn’t been paired with TC for long enough to really know what does or doesn’t discourage the average TC player.

It’s hard to get excited to lose a match that was decided the instant it was created. Blobs and server-stacking uber alles.

^ this, as someone on TC it feels like a lost cause. BG always has more people coming out of the wood works at every hour of the day. It does not matter where you go from aside eb; you will alway have the outnumbered buff. The only time we aren’t back capping/outnumbered is our prime time.

Eval.2371:

Heimlich.3065:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

I have a theory on why TC isn’t showing up. The current scoreboard has to be discouraging, especially with what TC is used to in T2. Which is a shame as I do get better fights out TC than I do YB.

I don’t know. Probably plays some part in it. My server hasn’t been paired with TC for long enough to really know what does or doesn’t discourage the average TC player.

It’s hard to get excited to lose a match that was decided the instant it was created. Blobs and server-stacking uber alles.

^ this, as someone on TC it feels like a lost cause. BG always has more people coming out of the wood works at every hour of the day. It does not matter where you go from aside eb; you will alway have the outnumbered buff. The only time we aren’t back capping/outnumbered is our prime time.

I know that a lot of Kaineng people love a lot of the action…..at the same time, many of us are just sick to death of the BG mega-blob. I see more of us running around in smaller TC & Kaineng led groups, creating havoc as best we can, engaging smaller groups and zergs, and avoiding the BG mega-blob as best we can. Score doesn’t really matter, so might as well try to not let BG have free bags. As long as it is fun, we’re out there…and most of the time, engaging the BG mega-blob is not fun. The only time it is fun is when we have the numbers to annoy and hassle the heck out of the mega-blob for awhile.

Teon.5168:

Eval.2371:

Heimlich.3065:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Teon.5168:

gennyt.3428:

Hesacon.8735:

I’ve come to the conclusion that the majority of desert haters are a very very vocal minority of the overall population. The majority of the overall population will play whatever they’re given.

I’m going to have to call bullkitten. The DBLs were largely empty even in T1 unlike the ABL that have queues almost every night now. The “majority” of the overall population crammed themselves into EBG or quit when the DBLs were the only other option. My guild roster and friendslist reflected that too. Anet having your mentality is exactly the reason why WvWvW got to such a sorry state in the first place. Players can and will vote with their feet when they’re not having fun.

Interesting. I’m on a server paired with TC(Tier 1), and the bls rarely have queues. Maybe one of the bls has one every once in awhile, usually pretty small. EB has more queues, just like when we had dbls……but even EB doesn’t have much in the way of a queue, except for reset night.

So I am not sure where you’re getting your “the abls have queues almost every night” stuff. But, maybe you’re on EU, or BG(NA)…..I wouldn’t know what it is like there.

I have a theory on why TC isn’t showing up. The current scoreboard has to be discouraging, especially with what TC is used to in T2. Which is a shame as I do get better fights out TC than I do YB.

I don’t know. Probably plays some part in it. My server hasn’t been paired with TC for long enough to really know what does or doesn’t discourage the average TC player.

It’s hard to get excited to lose a match that was decided the instant it was created. Blobs and server-stacking uber alles.

^ this, as someone on TC it feels like a lost cause. BG always has more people coming out of the wood works at every hour of the day. It does not matter where you go from aside eb; you will alway have the outnumbered buff. The only time we aren’t back capping/outnumbered is our prime time.

I know that a lot of Kaineng people love a lot of the action…..at the same time, many of us are just sick to death of the BG mega-blob. I see more of us running around in smaller TC & Kaineng led groups, creating havoc as best we can, engaging smaller groups and zergs, and avoiding the BG mega-blob as best we can. Score doesn’t really matter, so might as well try to not let BG have free bags. As long as it is fun, we’re out there…and most of the time, engaging the BG mega-blob is not fun. The only time it is fun is when we have the numbers to annoy and hassle the heck out of the mega-blob for awhile.

Just hope the mega-blob doesn’t get to vote on whether it should be easier to hunt down small groups.

Heimlich.3065:

Just hope the mega-blob doesn’t get to vote on whether it should be easier to hunt down small groups.

I doubt if we’ll see a poll on that. But, even if we do, by then, we’ll be paired differently anyways, so we will have a whole new set of possible issues to deal with/adapt to.

lil devils x.6071:

This is how it actually works now:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so.

This is how it works with mixed BL:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to DBL only 7 will go. You cannot attack or defend keeps with 7. That means WvW is now a broken game mode for those who do this and many consider that unplayable.

As I’ve said before you lose players hopping from EB to even the ABL not just DBL.

morrolan.9608:

lil devils x.6071:

This is how it actually works now:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go and you can do so.

This is how it works with mixed BL:
You have a Group of 25 that is hopping to all maps to defend all objectives. You hop to ABLs to defend/ attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to EBG to defend and attack keeps all 25 go. You hop to DBL only 7 will go. You cannot attack or defend keeps with 7. That means WvW is now a broken game mode for those who do this and many consider that unplayable.

As I’ve said before you lose players hopping from EB to even the ABL not just DBL.

No where near as many…
Never had a problem getting enough people to defend Gari on ABL. Almost always had a problem getting enough players to defend Gari on DBL. They would not even hop for that..
We are talking about the actual numbers here. when I said 25 hop, I meant 25 " hoppers" the entire group could be 35 on EBG, and 25 will still hop to the ABL while only 7 go to DBL. It was awful.

well, the vote for (2+1)(1+ 2) BLs stands at 69.7% after normalising for the 7.2% undecided, which is a clear majority, but just shy of the (rather extreme) 75%.

As is evident in this thread, I think this poll was poorly constructed in that people who hate either alpine or desert would be split between the 2+1 and rotation options, when I strongly believe that what most people would really like to see is 3 distinct BL maps.

Like others here, if we end up with a 3 month rotation of Desert then I’ll be taking another long break from the game, as WVW is the only reason I play this game and I strongly dislike Desert as it’s too easy for sides to avoid each other, too much running to get anywhere, extremely irritating terrain restrictions. I hope Anet remove Desert from WVW completely and re-purpose it as a PVE map.

Also, why isn’t Edge of the Mists on the table as a BL map?

TBH though, I think all of Anet’s WVW maps are poorly conceived. They all try too hard to create arbitrary obstacles and pre-thought siege locations. The original DAOC WVW maps where all 3 sides had unique and interesting geography was so so much better. Even a flat plain with randomly-generated keep/tower locations would have been better than alpine/desert.

So yeah, I’d really like to see another poll that explicitly mentions 3 distinct BL maps as an option, I’m willing to bet $$ this is what most players really want.

scerevisiae.1972:

well, the vote for (2+1)(1+ 2) BLs stands at 69.7% after normalising for the 7.2% undecided, which is a clear majority, but just shy of the (rather extreme) 75%.

As is evident in this thread, I think this poll was poorly constructed in that people who hate either alpine or desert would be split between the 2+1 and rotation options, when I strongly believe that what most people would really like to see is 3 distinct BL maps.

Like others here, if we end up with a 3 month rotation of Desert then I’ll be taking another long break from the game, as WVW is the only reason I play this game and I strongly dislike Desert as it’s too easy for sides to avoid each other, too much running to get anywhere, extremely irritating terrain restrictions. I hope Anet remove Desert from WVW completely and re-purpose it as a PVE map.

So yeah, I’d really like to see another poll that explicitly mentions 3 distinct BL maps as an option, I’m willing to bet $$ this is what most players really want.

I would not like a match with 3 distinct bl’s.
I’m hoping that since WvW is finally getting the attention it deserves we might eventually hit a point where it can be competitive. This will never happen with 3 unbalanced maps.

What I’d really like to see is for them to work with the community to create new maps and then rotate them on a weekly/biweekly basis.

Puck.9612:

scerevisiae.1972:

well, the vote for (2+1)(1+ 2) BLs stands at 69.7% after normalising for the 7.2% undecided, which is a clear majority, but just shy of the (rather extreme) 75%.

As is evident in this thread, I think this poll was poorly constructed in that people who hate either alpine or desert would be split between the 2+1 and rotation options, when I strongly believe that what most people would really like to see is 3 distinct BL maps.

Like others here, if we end up with a 3 month rotation of Desert then I’ll be taking another long break from the game, as WVW is the only reason I play this game and I strongly dislike Desert as it’s too easy for sides to avoid each other, too much running to get anywhere, extremely irritating terrain restrictions. I hope Anet remove Desert from WVW completely and re-purpose it as a PVE map.

So yeah, I’d really like to see another poll that explicitly mentions 3 distinct BL maps as an option, I’m willing to bet $$ this is what most players really want.

I would not like a match with 3 distinct bl’s.
I’m hoping that since WvW is finally getting the attention it deserves we might eventually hit a point where it can be competitive. This will never happen with 3 unbalanced maps.

What I’d really like to see is for them to work with the community to create new maps and then rotate them on a weekly/biweekly basis.

That is what I would like to see as well. Instead of trying to handcuff players to bad maps, they extensively test them and make changes according to polls before they go live, and not allow them to go live until the community is happy with them. Then rotate them out every week or couple of weeks instead allowing for actual variety of game play while maintaining balance. There should not be a " bad map " win/lose mechanic added such as the mixed maps will create.

This whole mixed map idea is just not very well thought out.

Puck.9612:

I would not like a match with 3 distinct bl’s.
I’m hoping that since WvW is finally getting the attention it deserves we might eventually hit a point where it can be competitive. This will never happen with 3 unbalanced maps.

What I’d really like to see is for them to work with the community to create new maps and then rotate them on a weekly/biweekly basis.

They have said that is too much work, and from the beginning of the game players players have asked for 3 distinct BLs. Having home BL be a copy across all 3 servers has always seemed an issue of not having enough resources.

I’ve read most of the Polls and subsequent threads. I do not understand why the Dev’s would even consider bringing back the Desert Borderland. That map and the stab changes wrecked our WvW population. More players left to BDO due to that map than anything else. Right now, after the Poll came out about bringing it back, a very high majority of the players in our TS have been very negative about it returning. Where are the Dev’s coming up with the notion that the map is desired or that it’s good for the game mode?

Before anyone mentioned the thread on here to have it returned, the number of unique players in that thread asking for it is pretty low.

Tyler said the poll after next we will get a poll to vote it out. The thing is, they really tried to push this too soon, and if they had done things different and used a buffer map then put it back into beta making changes according to player feedback and tested and retested until players were happy before going live with it, this would not even be an issue right now.

They need to send it back to the drawing table and have it approved by players before even attempting to vote on putting it back into the live game. That hasn’t happened so yea it sadly is better to scrap it until that does for the health of the game.

A vote to keep it is a vote to run off many players from the game again. Even if you dont mind the DBl so much, people mind losing their friends family and guildies from the game so they would have to vote to remove it just to be able to play the game with those they enjoy playing it with. The DBL destroyed guilds and ran off many. When that happens players leave the game to be able to play a game with those who left.. then more leave to play with them.. it is just not good for the game health to keep things that are so divisive in the game at all since it will permanently reduce the size of the community.

ALSO: You might want to let some of your OCX know how much JQ scouts dislike DBL, some seem to think scouts like to hide there… XD

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I just made a post, addressing these concerns, on page 5 of the official stickied thread, but I’m posting here too for additional visibility. I know a lot of players get into the habit of ignoring stickied posts or only looking at posts the first time they get a red reply.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-31-May-Mixed-Borderlands/page/5#post6185533

My sincere apologies, I didn’t see this post earlier.

My bad.

I don’t understand how “you people” can’t compromise. Everything has to be your way. There are other people who play this game and do not share your opinion.

Just wondering, do any of you know why dbl was designed the way it was?

Knob.6835:

I don’t understand how “you people” can’t compromise. Everything has to be your way. There are other people who play this game and do not share your opinion.

Blasphemer!!!!!!

Don’t you know that compromise is an evil thought/word on these forums?

Swagger.1459:

Just wondering, do any of you know why dbl was designed the way it was?

That’s a good question, Swagger. I imagine that a couple posters here will enlighten us all on it.

My thoughts on it is that they were still in HoT design mode, and thought that multiple levels in the bls would also be a very cool idea. Dbls would work, but they need a lot of tweaking. If you’re going to do HoT style multi-level design in wvw, then why not also add the pve HoT feature of gliding? Now there’s something wild…..the thought of a huge zerg gliding over areas of Dbls with rangers shooting them down……lol.

Right now, I think there is probably a different makeup to the wvw team. I think that is the reason for all the communication. And they’re looking at it all with different eyes. Hence the polls.

Just my thoughts on it. And I certainly don’t claim those ideas to be correct or representative of the entire player base. Just my foolish imaginings on it all. /shrug

lil devils x.6071:

ALSO: You might want to let some of your OCX know how much JQ scouts dislike DBL, some seem to think scouts like to hide there… XD

I don’t think thats really necessary, As I told you what I stated was based on direct statements made in TS by those who scout in the ocx timezone regularly.

Your free to vote however you want, but you don’t have any place telling people what to think about maps.

Desert Borderlands is a failure in it’s current state and that’s ok. Look at all the HoT content that was pretty un-enjoyable. Anet took some time and refined them and now they are all pretty enjoyable. I don’t see why they can’t go over it as well.

Edit LOL this thread merges completely destroy the threads. None of this makes sense anymore.

just say no to this thread.

2-1 abl-dbl is the best possible outcome. anet will consider working on a 3rd map, we can have both maps to play on at all times instead of long periods of time with only a single map type, and the different maps have different advantages which can help shore up the smallest server against the larger servers’ population advantage.

Teon.5168:

I know that a lot of Kaineng people love a lot of the action…..at the same time, many of us are just sick to death of the BG mega-blob. I see more of us running around in smaller TC & Kaineng led groups, creating havoc as best we can, engaging smaller groups and zergs, and avoiding the BG mega-blob as best we can. Score doesn’t really matter, so might as well try to not let BG have free bags. As long as it is fun, we’re out there…and most of the time, engaging the BG mega-blob is not fun. The only time it is fun is when we have the numbers to annoy and hassle the heck out of the mega-blob for awhile.

No, I totally get ya. I love the small scaling roaming, the fights, and kittening off the omni blob just as much as you do it’s why I still do go into wvw.

The issue is scoring does matter to me and, losing matches week to week, day to day just because another server has more numbers around the clock instead of playing better.

lil devils x.6071:

The DBL destroyed guilds and ran off many.

I think you are confusing DBL with guild halls.

insanemaniac.2456:

just say no to this thread.

2-1 abl-dbl is the best possible outcome. anet will consider working on a 3rd map, we can have both maps to play on at all times instead of long periods of time with only a single map type, and the different maps have different advantages which can help shore up the smallest server against the larger servers’ population advantage.

Completely agree.

insanemaniac.2456:

just say no to this thread.

2-1 abl-dbl is the best possible outcome. anet will consider working on a 3rd map, we can have both maps to play on at all times instead of long periods of time with only a single map type, and the different maps have different advantages which can help shore up the smallest server against the larger servers’ population advantage.

How is having dissimilar maps a “good” thing for balance? All it’ll do is drive players to the Alpine maps and EB. Thus giving free PPT to the Red World.

Knob.6835:

I don’t understand how “you people” can’t compromise. Everything has to be your way. There are other people who play this game and do not share your opinion.

Because the “compromise” appears to be catering to an extremely small percentage of the population. There should have been voting to bring it back at all first. Then vote on the number of instances of maps. Not just sticking us with it, again.

DeWolfe.2174:

How is having dissimilar maps a “good” thing for balance? All it’ll do is drive players to the Alpine maps and EB. Thus giving free PPT to the Red World.

Which would be bad how exactly?

People not wanting to play on DBL goes three ways, literally. If we give it to the lowest ranked server and they get “free PPT” because no one truly assault the map then thats fine. It forces people to go to DBL and fight even harder over claims on alpine. Everybody win. If there isnt enough population to do both, well then a third alpine would be just as empty and feed PPT to defenders so I fail to see the point.

Teon.5168:

Swagger.1459:

Just wondering, do any of you know why dbl was designed the way it was?

That’s a good question, Swagger. I imagine that a couple posters here will enlighten us all on it.

My thoughts on it is that they were still in HoT design mode, and thought that multiple levels in the bls would also be a very cool idea. Dbls would work, but they need a lot of tweaking. If you’re going to do HoT style multi-level design in wvw, then why not also add the pve HoT feature of gliding? Now there’s something wild…..the thought of a huge zerg gliding over areas of Dbls with rangers shooting them down……lol.

Right now, I think there is probably a different makeup to the wvw team. I think that is the reason for all the communication. And they’re looking at it all with different eyes. Hence the polls.

Just my thoughts on it. And I certainly don’t claim those ideas to be correct or representative of the entire player base. Just my foolish imaginings on it all. /shrug

Well, here’s the thing…

Players are saying “no” to dbl because of the design intent. Ya see, most players who like wvw want more open spaces to have massive battles. The devs intentionally pandered to the crowd complaining about zergs and blobs. So the devs made maps specifically to combat blobs. Bad idea and lack of foresight, goes to show how out of touch the developers are…

So… WvW had (has now) 4 maps designed for blob play that most liked.

When dbl was introduced the devs took away 3 of 4 blob maps.

Players hate the dbl map because it forces a style they didn’t sign up for.

The developers pandered to the wrong crowd with dbl, so people will vote away dbl unless they change the map.

I voted “yes” only because I’m hoping dbl will get a revamp, and because the “yes” vote possibly leads to another new map in play, thus making 4 unique maps in play at the same time.

The devs already know by stats that EB is the most popular wvw map, so it’s bothersome that they would break from that knowing that is the preferred style.

I’m not trying to be rude, but like I said, the devs have been out of touch with wvw stuff and pander to the least common denominator. MO and the decision makers put wvw development as a low priority too, so the results of that low effort and thought are what brought us to this place. Honestly, if this AAA mmo company can’t devote the resources to work over a map and start giving a real hoot, expect the same results from WvW.

Linking and rewards are good, but it won’t really grow the playerbase substantially or keep the players around. WvW is supposed to be a realm vs real vs realm experience, not a glorified spvp match.

The devs have no one to blame but themselves for the current state of wvw, so if they want things to change they need to reinvest into wvw. And on this topic, it’s not like the devs are saying “hey, we are going to rework dbl in these way, do you want it back?”. They are essentially saying “hey, we are not reworking the dbl map, do you want it back?”… Those are two fundamentally different things. One shows they are listening and care for the future of wvw, the other shows they are not listening and don’t care for the future of wvw.

Teon.5168:

Don’t know why I bother, but…..

Lil devils, I would really appreciate it if you would quit pretending like you speak for the entire player base. You don’t. Simple as that.

I would really appreciate it if you would quit pretending you can tell me what I should and should not do. I never said I speak for the entire player base and have just as much right as you do to post my experiences as you do.

I happen to play this game with a great deal of people from many servers and I would like them to have a chance to speak for themselves and not have you come troll people every time someone does. You can disagree, however, you do not control others opinions, as they are free to dislike the maps and want their family and friends to play the game with them. Every time someone voices their opinion on their dislike of the maps, you seem to think you should tell them they should not be entitled to do so. So if you don’t mind, Tyler already said we get a vote so deal with it. Go vote and I expect everyone I know to do the same as well. We are free to discuss that issue as we please, and really I could care less what you think about that. You can mind your own business, and I am minding mine. THIS IS my business as a guild leader of one of the larger WvW guilds in this game since I am trying to look out for the best interest of my guilds, my friends, and my family playing this game. I am trying to ensure they will continue to do so.

Dawdler.8521:

lil devils x.6071:

The DBL destroyed guilds and ran off many.

I think you are confusing DBL with guild halls.

Guild halls, removal of everything guilds earned, kittening over small guilds with the guild upgrade requirements all ran off people as well, but they still do not take away from those who actually re earned everything they lost with the guild system back but still didn’t want to play anymore over the DBL maps.

All of these things ran off players, that does not mean the others didn’t do so as well. Some guild were ripped apart over players refusing to go to the DBL, so then commanders started kicking those who wouldn’t go DBL and then guilds fell apart over it. There were quite a few things with HOT that killed many guilds, this was just one of them.

Dawdler.8521:

DeWolfe.2174:

How is having dissimilar maps a “good” thing for balance? All it’ll do is drive players to the Alpine maps and EB. Thus giving free PPT to the Red World.

Which would be bad how exactly?

People not wanting to play on DBL goes three ways, literally. If we give it to the lowest ranked server and they get “free PPT” because no one truly assault the map then thats fine. It forces people to go to DBL and fight even harder over claims on alpine. Everybody win. If there isnt enough population to do both, well then a third alpine would be just as empty and feed PPT to defenders so I fail to see the point.

That isn’t how WvW is played. The same group hop to every map defending/ attacking keeps, they do not suddenly have more targets to attack/ defend if they are unable to attack/ defend one of the maps. They just have less targets to attck/ defend than the team that will also go to that map in addition to the other maps.

3 servers in match have 1 zerg running for all 4 maps in play. 2 teams have zergs that will not go to DBL and one server does. That server who has more players willing to go DBL will hop to all the alpine maps to attack and defend as well as the DBL, so they get a whole map of FREE points since no one else will go to it IN ADDITION to the targets they hit on Alpine maps and EBG. They do not suddenly even themselves out, they just get all of those objectives PLUS whatever they can take on the other maps. The other 2 teams then only get the points from 3 maps, not 4, as they would if that were an alpine map and not a DBL.

Only the server with players that will go to DBL will get the points from 4 maps, the others will only get the points from 3. Players do not stay on one map the entire time they play, they hop to all of them, except when there are DBL’s, many will not hop to those at all.

“Most players who play wvw” tend to be those who are used to running in a zerg.

Unlike the OP I am not gonna claim I speak for everyone (Who knew you could even DO that on the forums :O).

But me and my friends enjoyed DBL alot more precisely because it didn’t encourage mindless blobbing. It gave us a place to play where we could harass larger groups and actually get away without running cheesy stealth comps (Like stealth condi gank compositions who lead with moa while invis "rolls eyes). Fighting in the oasis and going up the ramps to shoot down at a bypassing group in order to pick people off. Heading behind trees and in side tunnels to come in behind larger groups in order to snipe a few off before they reach your tower.

Using the terrain to your advantage over gimmicks (like kiting in and ABOVE the cliffs near NE camp).

What do I get in EBG and ABL if I don’t want to deal with that? Oh their coming after me in the middle of this flat plain and Im not running a stealth class and there is no terrain that works to my advantage? Well better hide in this tower then.

Oh this hole in the wall is filled to the brim with reflects and there is no way around or ABOVE the enemy that isn’t plastered in aoes or leaves me completely 100% exposed for whenever someone with a higher movement speed decides to chase me down? Well hope I like literally sitting there doing absolutely nothing for 15 minutes until one side or the other gets bored and pushes the other.

As a roamer DBL gave me more options. I liked having those options. Now that I am back in ABL I pretty much abandoned my primary class and playstyle because it simply doesn’t function well with the limited choices I have.

If I sound annoyed in this post its because I am. Im tired of seeing posts claiming to speak for me. I don’t like having to individually speak up every single time someone copy pastes there assumptions. And I don’t want to be counted in the same camp as “Them”. And I don’t like seeing posts that completely ignore the opinions of literally any other human being that plays this games because the poster is some all knowing god who knows EXACTLY why every bad thing in the game has happened ever. And who refuses to even acknowledge the CONCEPT that they might be wrong while pushing others to accept there ideas.

God kitten I get enough of that from the local evangelists that try to convince me the world is only 6 thousand years old.

DeWolfe.2174:

insanemaniac.2456:

just say no to this thread.

2-1 abl-dbl is the best possible outcome. anet will consider working on a 3rd map, we can have both maps to play on at all times instead of long periods of time with only a single map type, and the different maps have different advantages which can help shore up the smallest server against the larger servers’ population advantage.

How is having dissimilar maps a “good” thing for balance? All it’ll do is drive players to the Alpine maps and EB. Thus giving free PPT to the Red World.

Knob.6835:

I don’t understand how “you people” can’t compromise. Everything has to be your way. There are other people who play this game and do not share your opinion.

Because the “compromise” appears to be catering to an extremely small percentage of the population. There should have been voting to bring it back at all first. Then vote on the number of instances of maps. Not just sticking us with it, again.

Really there should have been voting in beta before ever allowing it to go live. They should not have implemented it at all until players voted that they were happy with it and wanted it. If they were willing to bring it back to beta until that happens, that would be an agreeable solution.

Swagger.1459:

Just wondering, do any of you know why dbl was designed the way it was?

As nobody here could actually know this, I will give my educated guess.
It is no far-fetched claim to say that WvW has – over the course of 3 years – never been treated equally to other game modes, attention wise. At the same time, the players developed their own infrastructures for WvW, their own administration and their own “castes” (scouts, roamers, “ppters”, PuG leaders, fighting guilds, gvg) and thus developed the game mode further from its original concept. Those things dont show up on any metric Anet has at their disposal, they can only be aquired by many insiders (as there are many facets to WvW by now), which Anet does not have the resources for.

As a result, it cannot come as a surprise that the WvW development team (as far as it existed) over time became more and more disconnected with the playerbase. When they talked about WvW, they were talking about the concepts and visions from release, not the actual state of the art. There was an instance of one GM (Anet tag) raged in WvW at guilds doing a GvG at the windmill, telling them they were “destroying his game mode”, which speacs volumes about the level of disconnection present.

For “casuals” it is fun to fight with goofy gimmics, where you can win by pushing someone off the map or to have cool, sometimes random effects spicing up the fights (OS traps). More serious pvpers despise that as they spend hours designing their builds, honing their skills and want to compete based on that alone. As such it further adds to the problem that there are probably no serious pvpers in the Anet team. Almost nothing in this game was designed from the core to be a pvp thing, its all PvE and then adapted to pvp.

This is the core problem. The desert borderlands are perfect for people who are not really interested in engaging in even, skill based player vs. player combat. Horrible chokes/ledges, gimmicks like pop-up walls, jump pads or air ducts. When getting feared/knockbacked off a cliff is a bigger threat than the enemy bomb, we have reached Skyhammer-tier of competitive map design.

One guy on an arrow cart can lock down a pass on his own, one guy can pull the lever and unleash the airship, one guy can activate that shield generator to knock 20 ppl into the lava to their death, one guy can hold the air keep lords room against 10 attackers. Everybody can be that guy, everybody can be the hero. For the average PvE-developer, this is the dream. For fight oriented players, this is their worst nightmare.

As long as the fighters are a significant portion of the playerbase, there will be demands of removing DBL in favor of Alpine, as Alpine is considered a fair balance between fights and siege, whereas DBL was clearly built for the latter.