Guild Wars 2

JessieAngel.6254:

Good point you have there,
Skitter.7389 if so why did he ad the rangers and thiefs in the first place if he does not want them? We were good enough when he had no one?

Because its still good to know how many people are following you and to get your supply count in the squad.
It also looks a lot better the fuller the squad when new people join it.

But when it’s full you will be sacrificed for better zerg classes.

I’ll join in the conversation.

I’m a commander in a T1 server. I know there are many commanders that only aim for the “perfect” setup. They seem to believe that this will give them a major advantage in pug blob fights. The advantage is small, there are other factors that will help more in winning fights. But that means the commander need to improve him/herself and they do not want to face that.

Lucky for you. There are plenty of commanders that do not have the same view. They will accept any player that is pulling their weight, regardless the class.

When I tag up I do not mind having thieves and rangers in the squad. If you play your best I want you in. If you need a small break cuz you have kids and you just say you need a small break I will not kick you.

My only advice is to find the commanders that suit you and follow them. Maybe even join a guild that has this mentality.

Elitism is happening in any part of the game. My advice is to join the non elite groups as there are options.

It happened to me once (and only once).

Around early. feb. I was kicked from the squad because I was playing ranger.
I complained in map/team chat but no one objected, and many agreed that rangers/(and thiefs) had no place in the squad or even in wvw at al.

I then decided to not join a squad nor join TS for 6months.

I still still play daily, i still follow commanders, And i still play necro/ranger/mesmer/warrior (depending on how i feel) I just refuse to join squads/ts

Good thing rally bots can rez only one enemy these days….

Bearer of Burden.4621:

It happened to me once (and only once).

Around early. feb. I was kicked from the squad because I was playing ranger.
I complained in map/team chat but no one objected, and many agreed that rangers/(and thiefs) had no place in the squad or even in wvw at al.

I then decided to not join a squad nor join TS for 6months.

I still still play daily, i still follow commanders, And i still play necro/ranger/mesmer/warrior (depending on how i feel) I just refuse to join squads/ts

Lel, playing without ts or squad 6 months is basically not playing the gamemode at all in EU. 80% of servers runs squads full of normal guards, melee revs etc which means people not in squad can just run around trying to survive. Guess thats the extent of your love for WvW.

You maybe dont notice it but condi necros stack 25 stacks of bleed and 6 torment to your pets with few shouts and scepter 3, then epi them. Thats why rangers are kicked and hopefully the next ranger elite spec wont include a pet, otherwise rangers/druids will still just kill more allies than enemies. Thieves problem is more about being hardcountered by rampart lines of warding, skilllag and statics

Bearer of Burden.4621:

It happened to me once (and only once).

Around early. feb. I was kicked from the squad because I was playing ranger.
I complained in map/team chat but no one objected, and many agreed that rangers/(and thiefs) had no place in the squad or even in wvw at al.

I then decided to not join a squad nor join TS for 6months.

I still still play daily, i still follow commanders, And i still play necro/ranger/mesmer/warrior (depending on how i feel) I just refuse to join squads/ts

This is the thing that annoys me most tbh.
People who claim to love the game mode, complain about how the game mode is dying or whatever, and then work to make sure that comes to pass by actively sacrificing inclusiveness and friendliness on the altar of “meta”.

Sorry, tangential rant diverted.

Novahh.7426:

To be fair, rangers and theirs are trash in WvW in squad lol I usually kick rangers and theirs too

You’d be alive far longer if you respected all good players on any toon they choose to play.

Don’t tell me you don’t wipe – all of us do, but when some are spec’d correctly and know their skills and abilities better than the other side, you get a huge bonus in all areas.

Not using all good players in a group because of ridiculous biases is why some very good players go into WvW, play for a while, do well but are never respected for the massive gains they are delivering to the team effort and almost never included when they absolutely should be in all things WvW, leave and never come back, being happier with groups that do foster cooperation and communication – which can be found in many groups in all other game modes BUT WvW. And this is especially pronounced in the last year.

atheria.2837:

Novahh.7426:

To be fair, rangers and theirs are trash in WvW in squad lol I usually kick rangers and theirs too

You’d be alive far longer if you respected all good players on any toon they choose to play.

Don’t tell me you don’t wipe – all of us do, but when some are spec’d correctly and know their skills and abilities better than the other side, you get a huge bonus in all areas.

Not using all good players in a group because of ridiculous biases is why some very good players go into WvW, play for a while, do well but are never respected for the massive gains they are delivering to the team effort and almost never included when they absolutely should be in all things WvW, leave and never come back, being happier with groups that do foster cooperation and communication – which can be found in many groups in all other game modes BUT WvW. And this is especially pronounced in the last year.

Y’all are making me glad I:

1.) Don’t typically join squads (despite the class I am on)
2.) Don’t typically see this elitism in my server pairings.

I am not pro by any standards, however despite on the class I am playing in WvW, I know how to pull my weight and i typically know who to aim for in a ZvZ and stab…never needed it when I play teef as a good teef player will not be where the AoE is, but be where the backline/sideline enemies are, scaring the bacon out of them as they get deleted.

atheria.2837:

Novahh.7426:

To be fair, rangers and theirs are trash in WvW in squad lol I usually kick rangers and theirs too

You’d be alive far longer if you respected all good players on any toon they choose to play.

Don’t tell me you don’t wipe – all of us do, but when some are spec’d correctly and know their skills and abilities better than the other side, you get a huge bonus in all areas.

Not using all good players in a group because of ridiculous biases is why some very good players go into WvW, play for a while, do well but are never respected for the massive gains they are delivering to the team effort and almost never included when they absolutely should be in all things WvW, leave and never come back, being happier with groups that do foster cooperation and communication – which can be found in many groups in all other game modes BUT WvW. And this is especially pronounced in the last year.

We let good guilds decide what classes are good in WvW. Sure druid has spot in 15s but in 50s, no, there is not a single good strong guild that would say so. Obviously everyone thinks their own guild is strong but unfortunately its not that simple. Also good players play good classes, youre not a good player if you perform badly, and ranger/druid does. Sure good players try druid sometimes to see if they can make it work, but unfortunately after 2 years everyone can say, it doesnt.
Also if you claim youre only happy with ranger/druid regardless of how badly you perform, I am suggesting you only should follow commanders that dont mind losing. Some people want to win, even in games.

Noone is going to fix this for you. Imagine a solution..either anet forces commanders to accept whatever joins their squad…imagine the outcry. Or you convince these commanders that your contribution is significant….highly unlikely. Every now and again a newbie makes a post like this. I am sorry but classism in this instance is defined by utility of the class if you would like someone to blame consider the Anet, them who have created the exclusionaru conditions of your class in t his game mode. Welcome to wvw.

Dawdler.8521:

Phantom.8130:

As a thief, I’ve only actually seen one group actively kicking thieves and rangers when the squad’s full. However, I’ve seen countless commanders stick all of the thieves and rangers into a “reject” party, give them zero stability, then let confirmation bias kick in when those thieves and rangers get CCed and bombed…. due to the lack of stability. Most people, in general, have no clue what thieves actually bring to a zerg. Anything that isn’t blatantly obvious and practically slapping them in the face goes completely unnoticed. I can put out 9 blast finishers in a row. I can get an entire backline to spread out and waste their bomb, and a few will burn some dodges too. I also do a ton of CC/interupts. I also do boonstripping/sharing every 20 seconds. I stick on the tag like glue, and I’m either the one rezzing the commander or going down after them. The only times I go down before the commander is when they stick me into said “reject” party, and I get CCed then bombed because 0 stability, and all of my other stun breaks are on cooldown.

The problem is, putting thieves/etc in stab parties is pointless because you should never be where that stab party is. We dont have infinite range on skills.

Some commanders dont give a kitten about the backline and will let them get bombed and then whine about it, true. Thats when you leave the squad and make your own. Many commanders will assume that if you join WvW as a glass cannon ganker, you can avoid a bomb and CC while flowing with the zerg frontline. You made the choice to bring a thief.

If you’re a slave to “meta”, then you’ll only see theives as d/d zerk gank thieves that only belong in a pick team. But that shows an ignorance of the class itself. A shortbow thief in dire gear has over 3k armor and 20k HP, that spams blast finishers and does a ton of condi damage. That’s not a pick thief by any means, and SHOULD be running right along side the commander to ensure the tag is healed and buffed constantly. I command on a s/p control thief with almost 3300 Armor and 28k HP. My job isn’t to do damage, it’s to control the fight. Greatsword guardians have Leap of Faith, I have Infiltrator’s strike. Theirs does blindness, mine immobilizes. Guardians get Whirling Wrath, I have Pistol Whip. Theirs is a whirl finisher, mine is a stun. They get Symbol of Wrath, I get Black Powder. Theirs gives retaliation, mine does blindness. They get Binding Blade, I get Headshot. Theirs is a pull, mine is a daze. And when they start trying to pinsnipe, blinding powder. Now you have to find me again. Oh, you found me? Hide in Shadows, now I’ve cleansed, healed and you have to find me again. Oh, you pulled me? Shadowstep back to my group, no you didn’t. And when you do manage to get a bead on me, Bandit’s defense. From there, Reflexive strike, knockdown. Impact Strike Combo, daze, launch, damage/finisher. If I get pushed back, I steal to get back to the front of my group, which also dazes. and if you have a sloppy group, I swap out Impat Strike for Dagger storm, dash into your back lines, pop it and watch all of your casters lose their frickin’ minds burning cooldowns and dodges because they’re terrified of a thief. And if I really want to screw with your group, I switch to d/d and just death blossom and dash around in your back lines, so that they all focus on me instead of the zerg that’s now running them over. If a commanders puts me in a party with stability, I help control the fight. If they don’t, then I lose respect for them. It’s a slap in the face for someone to try to use me as cannon fodder, so I won’t even bother trying to rez them. They made their choices, they can deal with the consequences and respawn.

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

Case. In. Point.

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

As a guildmander ill experiment, take my guoldies performance into consideration have a chat ect. As a chatmander there isnt time to iinvestigate the feasabilitybof someones build. Why would they tell youbthe truth anyway. Point being if you want to be in a squad and run your rngr/teef then join a guild that tags. That way you can get some individual attention maybe change the meta? But to cry and limit cmdr options or complain when tags already havr so many decisions to make its unrealistic. As a chatmander Ill accept anyone and move ppl around and i am unlikely to put a bunch of rangers and thieves i nto their own group unless they are disproportionate, which has happened. I dont put more than one of either thief or ranger into a group unless I have to. If Im guildmanding Rangers are included on a case by case basis but noone in the guild will ever complain if they end up in the pick group cuz they arent noobs.

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

It’s hard enough to get most people to change a build, good luck teaching a random pug who doesn’t even solicit for advice. But I do agree that there are solutions outside the meta, I run 2 of my 3 wvw ele builds completely outside of meta.

Perhaps your personal issue is being with commanders/lieutenants who are not familiar with you. Your solution would be to ask for lieutenant so other lieutenants won’t move you personally. I often see randoms getting it to sort parties for the commander and often they fall into the ignorant self absorbed mentality who only know how to repeat what they hear.

I know on Maguuma there is a small percentage rate of thieves and rangers who generally are accepted by the veterans since they live and contribute,. But these rarely are in the raid they stick to themselves.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

As a guildmander ill experiment, take my guoldies performance into consideration have a chat ect. As a chatmander there isnt time to iinvestigate the feasabilitybof someones build. Why would they tell youbthe truth anyway. Point being if you want to be in a squad and run your rngr/teef then join a guild that tags. That way you can get some individual attention maybe change the meta? But to cry and limit cmdr options or complain when tags already havr so many decisions to make its unrealistic. As a chatmander Ill accept anyone and move ppl around and i am unlikely to put a bunch of rangers and thieves i nto their own group unless they are disproportionate, which has happened. I dont put more than one of either thief or ranger into a group unless I have to. If Im guildmanding Rangers are included on a case by case basis but noone in the guild will ever complain if they end up in the pick group cuz they arent noobs.

I’ve been type commanding since October 2012. It really isn’t too difficult to stick at least one guardian in every party, 2 in the front line parties. Furthermore, you have to deal with the situation before it ever gets to that point. I’m constantly teaching. I’ve had numerous people ask me what set up I’m using, and I explain it in detail in squad chat. I’m also working with a few other commanders to hold weekly public training events, where we cover everything from map strategy, to builds, to proper siege placement. We had about 20-30 people show up last week, and that was just covering the very basics of WvW. It’s a gradual process, that will pays off tremendously in the long run. There’s always going to be new players coming into WvW, so it’s best to provide the information they need to succeed, rather than sticking them into positions where they can’t.

neven.3785:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

It’s hard enough to get most people to change a build, good luck teaching a random pug who doesn’t even solicit for advice. But I do agree that there are solutions outside the meta, I run 2 of my 3 wvw ele builds completely outside of meta.

Perhaps your personal issue is being with commanders/lieutenants who are not familiar with you. Your solution would be to ask for lieutenant so other lieutenants won’t move you personally. I often see randoms getting it to sort parties for the commander and often they fall into the ignorant self absorbed mentality who only know how to repeat what they hear.

I know on Maguuma there is a small percentage rate of thieves and rangers who generally are accepted by the veterans since they live and contribute,. But these rarely are in the raid they stick to themselves.

The other day, I spent 20 minutes just tinkering around on one of the build editor site, and ended up with zerg viable builds for both rangers and engis, even though I’ve never played either class. This isn’t some personal gripe. This is 50% of the classes being used as cannon fodder because people don’t bother to learn how they work. And then looking down on everyone who plays those classes. So rather than actually trying to help them, they end up driving them off. WvW needs all of the players it can get. The patch was a nice boost, but it’s mostly temporary. The last thing we need are people actively murdering the playerbase because they only understand how half the classes in the game work.

Public traing events are excellent. I have always had very good turnouts people are generally willing to learn. If commanders community leaders got time for that it works for non compllicated basics. I have found that wvw guilds are much better places to teach and learn especially with ts. I also a bit biasd these days since I stopped pugmanding in 2014 and mostly only command guildies.

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

It’s hard enough to get most people to change a build, good luck teaching a random pug who doesn’t even solicit for advice. But I do agree that there are solutions outside the meta, I run 2 of my 3 wvw ele builds completely outside of meta.

Perhaps your personal issue is being with commanders/lieutenants who are not familiar with you. Your solution would be to ask for lieutenant so other lieutenants won’t move you personally. I often see randoms getting it to sort parties for the commander and often they fall into the ignorant self absorbed mentality who only know how to repeat what they hear.

I know on Maguuma there is a small percentage rate of thieves and rangers who generally are accepted by the veterans since they live and contribute,. But these rarely are in the raid they stick to themselves.

The other day, I spent 20 minutes just tinkering around on one of the build editor site, and ended up with zerg viable builds for both rangers and engis, even though I’ve never played either class. This isn’t some personal gripe. This is 50% of the classes being used as cannon fodder because people don’t bother to learn how they work. And then looking down on everyone who plays those classes. So rather than actually trying to help them, they end up driving them off. WvW needs all of the players it can get. The patch was a nice boost, but it’s mostly temporary. The last thing we need are people actively murdering the playerbase because they only understand how half the classes in the game work.

You should join a guild…be a good commander in the current meta to your guild of atleast 50 ppl. Then convince them of your build ideas and the demonstrate in wvw and gvg those changes = success. Word hets out congrats you have forever change wvw and educated and enlightened at the same time. Till then yer a noWxp good idea fairy. Dont even run the classes? Cmon man.

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

Welcome to Burger Commander may I take your order.

So, you’d like to the BK Boons and a little stab on the side.

That will be one GREN class.

Hold the stab and boons… okay that will be ranger or thief pull forward.

TLDR: Have it your way but dont expect the cost to be other than market price.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

Welcome to Burger Commander may I take your order.

So, you’d like to the BK Boons and a little stab on the side.

That will be one GREN class.

Hold the stab and boons… okay that will be ranger or thief pull forward.

TLDR: Have it your way but dont expect the cost to be other than market price.

i have no idea what u just said

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Look at the party composition of this squad, notice anything about druids, thieves and warriors? – #notwanted – which is gross, anet should balance this, or make it so commanders cant kick

It’s the commander’s squad he started. That should be end of story. Make your own pick squad or something. Do you want to be included but despised for it? I wouldn’t.

Have a bunch of weak links/professions, you get 1 pushed. There are some amazing Druids and Teefs out there, and a few know how to round out a party with a proper non-selfish build, but then again you’re leaving out a proper zerg prof either way. And if you’re not multiclassing as a wvw/pvp player, you’re at a disadvantage to start. Because sometimes your only chosen prof will be trash for a few months prob. Maybe longer. Have a proper prof ready for what’s needed to round out your group. I don’t love playing healbot, but I put the time in leaning it so I can use it when my group needs one. Man, this “I want my participation trophy or riot!” type mentality I’ve seen here is saddening. That doesn’t work in gaming. Maybe in Lib arts college or in highschools out west. Not really in pvp style gaming. Incoming ban for truth incoming….

Edited to mention Druid’s Pets are an Epidemic Reaper’s best friend.

JessieAngel.6254:

Ok so I love playing WvW and have from the beginning.

So this is what has happened twice now where a commander (and this in Not new commanders) comes to a map and started asking people to join the squad and then after a while when they have a decent sized squad they started kicking Rangers and Thiefs from the squad. I PM them to ask what’s going on and the one response I go was you are a Ranger and the other one did not bother to respond.

That is messed up!

I usually just put thieves, rangers (not druids), and mesmers (not chronos) in their own squad party and leave them be. To be honest though it’s tough to find usefulness out of certain classes in WvW for zerg fights especially in this meta. How do you expect to contribute positively to the fight when you play those kinds of classes in zerg fights?

PabbyGaul.9682:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

It’s hard enough to get most people to change a build, good luck teaching a random pug who doesn’t even solicit for advice. But I do agree that there are solutions outside the meta, I run 2 of my 3 wvw ele builds completely outside of meta.

Perhaps your personal issue is being with commanders/lieutenants who are not familiar with you. Your solution would be to ask for lieutenant so other lieutenants won’t move you personally. I often see randoms getting it to sort parties for the commander and often they fall into the ignorant self absorbed mentality who only know how to repeat what they hear.

I know on Maguuma there is a small percentage rate of thieves and rangers who generally are accepted by the veterans since they live and contribute,. But these rarely are in the raid they stick to themselves.

The other day, I spent 20 minutes just tinkering around on one of the build editor site, and ended up with zerg viable builds for both rangers and engis, even though I’ve never played either class. This isn’t some personal gripe. This is 50% of the classes being used as cannon fodder because people don’t bother to learn how they work. And then looking down on everyone who plays those classes. So rather than actually trying to help them, they end up driving them off. WvW needs all of the players it can get. The patch was a nice boost, but it’s mostly temporary. The last thing we need are people actively murdering the playerbase because they only understand how half the classes in the game work.

You should join a guild…be a good commander in the current meta to your guild of atleast 50 ppl. Then convince them of your build ideas and the demonstrate in wvw and gvg those changes = success. Word hets out congrats you have forever change wvw and educated and enlightened at the same time. Till then yer a noWxp good idea fairy. Dont even run the classes? Cmon man.

Or, I can keep doing what I’m doing, and be able to train hundreds, if not thousands, of people, including dozens of commanders on my server. Problems tend to arise when new commanders come in, have no clue what the lay of the land is, declare they know best, fail miserably, and destroy what’s been built. In the month and a half that I’ve been back in the game since a 10 month hiatus, I’ve been making good strides to undo the damage that was done by people who thought they knew a lot more than they actually did.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

Welcome to Burger Commander may I take your order.

So, you’d like to the BK Boons and a little stab on the side.

That will be one GREN class.

Hold the stab and boons… okay that will be ranger or thief pull forward.

TLDR: Have it your way but dont expect the cost to be other than market price.

i have no idea what u just said

Inc to u 1 pve spawncamping themselves. You wont until you git gud and l2pwvw for 1000garris else git rekt as rallybot pve scrub.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

How do you expect to contribute positively to the fight when you play those kinds of classes in zerg fights?

By keeping other thieves like me off a commanders back, or stealth fast rez them when they get sniped. There’s maybe two decent builds that a thief can stay in zerg mostly with but we’re better floating near and tethering in and out. Commanders could suggest in map however that anyone not in squad form a group or second squad if they want to crank out their reward track still.

This topic is like four years late to the party lol.

If you want to play a selfish class, you need to prove you’re an asset to the blob enough to justify your slot. Don’t expect anyone to “give you a chance;” far too many people think they’re way more useful than they are. The meta boon builds are faceroll easy and have tons of synergy and are therefore a safe bet for the most part.

If you’re actually really good, and the commander you’re nearby is actually good, they’ll recognize your contributions enough to keep you along for the ride.

I frontlined a crappy D/D power thief for like three straight years and usually got top-priority spots in commander/raid parties because diving a zerg solo and dropping the enemy commander just as the blob is about to engage begs for attention.

Half of the time, people on the professions are just free bags and rallies.

Follow along outside the squad, and over time if you’re not constantly dying or your KDA/utility in general is passable you’ll get the invites and get more and more invites.

kash.9213:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

How do you expect to contribute positively to the fight when you play those kinds of classes in zerg fights?

By keeping other thieves like me off a commanders back, or stealth fast rez them when they get sniped. There’s maybe two decent builds that a thief can stay in zerg mostly with but we’re better floating near and tethering in and out. Commanders could suggest in map however that anyone not in squad form a group or second squad if they want to crank out their reward track still.

I feel like you’d be more useful…

[A]: On another class that can directly benefit the a squad-party, and help with squad composition (i.e. filling needed class roles for each group).

OR

[B]: Picking off roaming groups trying to snipe the people who inevitably trail behind the majority of the squad when moving from objective to objective and get focused during fights for being far outside the main group. Also finishing downs on the periphery always helps when it comes to winning the rally-game.

Phantom.8130:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

Phantom.8130:

neven.3785:

You seem to be fixating on a player you rarely see. A thief who specs for front line and plays for it. What I often see is thieves complaining about no stab, but being down 600 range in front of the commander. Funny Hong is this happens when they are in a decent party a comp too. They whine how glass they need to go to generate downs and so they become downed every fight and blame group comp. Most competent thieves I know have moved to other classes when they join a group more than 5.

So good on our for being a single competent thief amongst the 20 on map wasting a queue slot

You rarely see them because most people are slaves to meta, and can only think in terms of GREN, and that thieves are only good for roaming/ganking/pick teams. So people end up pigeon holed due to misinformation being spread. If people actually bothered to learn what the classes outside of GREN were capable of, and promoted accurate information, you’d see a change in approach. But as long as people come into the map and say ’I’m on a thief/ranger, what should I be running?" and they get told full zerk, cause you’re a roaming class", that’s all that you’ll see. And for the record, not even pick thieves should be running zerk gear. They should be running a mix of Cav and Valk so that they don’t melt in all the AoE that’s getting tossed around.

It’s hard enough to get most people to change a build, good luck teaching a random pug who doesn’t even solicit for advice. But I do agree that there are solutions outside the meta, I run 2 of my 3 wvw ele builds completely outside of meta.

Perhaps your personal issue is being with commanders/lieutenants who are not familiar with you. Your solution would be to ask for lieutenant so other lieutenants won’t move you personally. I often see randoms getting it to sort parties for the commander and often they fall into the ignorant self absorbed mentality who only know how to repeat what they hear.

I know on Maguuma there is a small percentage rate of thieves and rangers who generally are accepted by the veterans since they live and contribute,. But these rarely are in the raid they stick to themselves.

The other day, I spent 20 minutes just tinkering around on one of the build editor site, and ended up with zerg viable builds for both rangers and engis, even though I’ve never played either class. This isn’t some personal gripe. This is 50% of the classes being used as cannon fodder because people don’t bother to learn how they work. And then looking down on everyone who plays those classes. So rather than actually trying to help them, they end up driving them off. WvW needs all of the players it can get. The patch was a nice boost, but it’s mostly temporary. The last thing we need are people actively murdering the playerbase because they only understand how half the classes in the game work.

You should join a guild…be a good commander in the current meta to your guild of atleast 50 ppl. Then convince them of your build ideas and the demonstrate in wvw and gvg those changes = success. Word hets out congrats you have forever change wvw and educated and enlightened at the same time. Till then yer a noWxp good idea fairy. Dont even run the classes? Cmon man.

Or, I can keep doing what I’m doing, and be able to train hundreds, if not thousands, of people, including dozens of commanders on my server. Problems tend to arise when new commanders come in, have no clue what the lay of the land is, declare they know best, fail miserably, and destroy what’s been built. In the month and a half that I’ve been back in the game since a 10 month hiatus, I’ve been making good strides to undo the damage that was done by people who thought they knew a lot more than they actually did.

Gl with that jesusmander. Pugs have daily amnesia. Look forward to seeing yer meta on the field as i hope everyday we will get to stop having to fight under a res umbrella while raining full epi’d condies. Something new to fight would be a nice change. Unfortunately its not the new tags you gotta worry about. As dps becomes more one sided your options start narrowing. GREN is meta because it wins hundreds and thousands of fighhts everyday. Its natural selection not bias. They nerf warbanner…GRWEN becomes GREN. As a commander you should have characters as most professions or have someone help you out in your theorycrafting else your builds might look good on builder.com but are unplayable due to no reliable timing such as celestial avatar. Im all for experimentation and guilds guild arenas and gvg are the best places to test your ideas. Sharing build ideas with pugs and then expecting zvz to parse out the details is unlikey to gain any ground. You could also troll metabattle with them and ppl will try and provide feed back. Ive been commanding since 2013, pugmanded, guildmanded, gvg and trained servers. Yeah it all works and guess what..when you take your next hiatus….

DeceiverX.8361:

This topic is like four years late to the party lol.

If you want to play a selfish class, you need to prove you’re an asset to the blob enough to justify your slot. Don’t expect anyone to “give you a chance;” far too many people think they’re way more useful than they are. The meta boon builds are faceroll easy and have tons of synergy and are therefore a safe bet for the most part.

If you’re actually really good, and the commander you’re nearby is actually good, they’ll recognize your contributions enough to keep you along for the ride.

I frontlined a crappy D/D power thief for like three straight years and usually got top-priority spots in commander/raid parties because diving a zerg solo and dropping the enemy commander just as the blob is about to engage begs for attention.

Half of the time, people on the professions are just free bags and rallies.

Follow along outside the squad, and over time if you’re not constantly dying or your KDA/utility in general is passable you’ll get the invites and get more and more invites.

So true lol.

There are multiple groups that will want me around regardless of class but I will also switch when required. Not because I am good, but because I can offer some things.

Likewise I trust various players regardless of class.

I won’t do it to randoms and don’t join squads with an off meta class unsolicited.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

[A]: On another class that can directly benefit the a squad-party, and help with squad composition (i.e. filling needed class roles for each group).

OR

[B]: Picking off roaming groups trying to snipe the people who inevitably trail behind the majority of the squad when moving from objective to objective and get focused during fights for being far outside the main group. Also finishing downs on the periphery always helps when it comes to winning the rally-game.

Ya, I said as much, glad we’re on the same page commander. But when a tag cries for everyone to join squad and get on TS, they get what they get or they can go roam themselves or f off with their guild someplace.

Jana.6831:

…on the other hand it’s understandable as Ranger and Thieves aren’t boon sharing.

Not saying Thief is a support class, but we do have Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thrill_of_the_Crime
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

And I actually use Trickery when pugging and knowing that I will more often go ranged with double pistols. I also stay close to my group when using Basilisk Venom

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom

Thief is not completely unsocial.

(edit: sorry, I got to this thread because someone linked to it, I’m not playing WvW)

Commander’s and their Lts can organize the squads however they want, and its no secret what the current meta is…

All you need to sucessfully zerg and win fights is G/N/R and maybe boonshare mesmers.

in the squads i run or organize we even kick eles if we have more cleave.

So many misinformed people in wvw by the looks of it. Obviously never saw proper played staff/bound thief in zerg. Those thieves do better job at killing enemy zerg and living longer than your average guard spamming staff1 which is squad usually filled with.

I have also experienced same thing as Op. Even if squad wasn’t full and comm was advertising for people to join the squad, any thief was constantly kicked and verbally harassed for actually joining (i was told to have cancer for example for simply playing the class, how lovely). WvW became more toxic than raids and pvp together.

For my part, i was told that thief is not worth it and doesn’t deserve it to be part of the squad. However when those oh so glorious squad members went down and cried for rez, i had my last laugh and told them “you are not worth the rez” (although i could have easily rezzed them).

The One thief I use that I feel offers a group lots of support is the p/d s/b build traited for Boon theft.

It has venom share with poison.
BT for boon theft and share.
RS for more boon theft. Certainly does not share but peels boons in a hurry.
SB for area denial and skill shutdown.
Multiple sources of Vuln and Immob application which pins down an enemy for a kill.
Stealths on rez so as to revive downed teamates quickly.

And it can and has used SOA for added group condition cleanse.

Not all bad.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

Your rebuttal is meaningless. Most of us who play wvw have been playing since launch, when the “rewards” were 1% of what they are now. We play because we enjoy the game mode. The reward is fun. If you want rewards like loot and gold, go run around in circles in silverwastes with the other zombies.

You say you can’t play the game your way, but what you really want is everyone else to play your way. Zerging is a team sport. Either play by the rules or get cut from the team.

To a degree the folks saying that thieves and druids can be good in zerg play are right, they can be. But you’ve gotta be operating in the top 5-10% skill zone to pull that off with those classes and pug commanders just don’t see that often (scrapper to a degree as well). A mediocre guardian is wildly more valuable while almost always being the safer, more realistically available option than a top ranger or thief player.

It’s absolutely laughable how many rangers you see in zergs pew pewing away with lb (and I know it’s not everyone).

There is one way to 100% to never be kicked. Be the tag!

And yes I’ve commanded on a scrapper with a druid healer in my party, and also as a druid. Though it happens because we were a small group that became the defacto tag; I wouldn’t really suggest that normally.

Go to one of the quieter borderlands and rally up all the roamers. You can do some good damage due to how the play styles will sync. Your average enemy train does not know how to handle that sort of indirect warfare.

4 or 5 kicked from my coms party (including me) last night with no complaint from me. It was all thieves and rangers and with the squad at 50/50 the kicks immediately followed a chat message from a guard/necro/rev looking for a spot.

The com still drove whilst giving separate instructions for ranged and melee train and I don’t have any issue with it in the least

zedapoc.1493:

A mediocre guardian is wildly more valuable while almost always being the safer, more realistically available option than a top ranger or thief player.

Exactly this

zedapoc.1493:

It’s absolutely laughable how many rangers you see in zergs pew pewing away with lb (and I know it’s not everyone).

:) This is me just now, purely for the fun and enjoyment of ranger. after x thousand hours of heavies i just got bored which is why i havent got an issue with not getting in squad – also common sense since i tend to peel off to scout/recap a helluva lot

JessieAngel.6254:

Good point you have there,
Skitter.7389 if so why did he ad the rangers and thiefs in the first place if he does not want them? We were good enough when he had no one?

Because he was being nice and letting you take advantage of boons etc from other squad members probably. Once he had more people that could contribute the most sensible course is to include those people, sadly that does mean making room by booting classes/builds that dont help as much.

Honestly, gank is better off in its own group/squad anyway. You can move differently, go in and out together, flank and harass etc much better if you work together with like classes instead of grouped with the melee ball type classes. Use your class to its potential and stop trying to be something you arent.

Forget squad, you have incredible survivability and independence. Honestly when I’m on a druid or thief I find squad a liability.

Jayne.9251:

Learn who to support as a commander and who not to.

If they are arbitrarily kicking people out of squads, follow a commander that doesn’t.

Soon, the more inclusive commander will get the following, while the other guy will be scratching his head wondering why he’s alone.

Otherwise, get your own tag and tag up and create the environment you want on map.

You have choices. So does the commander on map. If you don’t like it, then create your own.

Agreed. If the commander is being rude or unreasonable, or makes really dumb decisions, leave them. They’re not worth your time, and the power is in your hands. I’ve blocked and refused to follow many commanders, for example, who used homophobic language, or demeaned other players to the point of verbal abuse. That’s not cool.

Monster.4802:

I’ll join in the conversation.

I’m a commander in a T1 server. I know there are many commanders that only aim for the “perfect” setup. They seem to believe that this will give them a major advantage in pug blob fights. The advantage is small, there are other factors that will help more in winning fights. But that means the commander need to improve him/herself and they do not want to face that.

Lucky for you. There are plenty of commanders that do not have the same view. They will accept any player that is pulling their weight, regardless the class.

When I tag up I do not mind having thieves and rangers in the squad. If you play your best I want you in. If you need a small break cuz you have kids and you just say you need a small break I will not kick you.

My only advice is to find the commanders that suit you and follow them. Maybe even join a guild that has this mentality.

Elitism is happening in any part of the game. My advice is to join the non elite groups as there are options.

I really like this post and I am glad u r not exclusionary. U give me hope that I can still play in WvW, a game mode I love in a game I love. Thank you for being a good cmdr!

My only beef is that when there is only one part-full squad on the land you want to be on in ur server and they boot u for some class requirement or TS requirement, where do u go? What cmdr do u follow then? None. Ur just out of game play until they step down.

Shouldn’t be like that. If a cmdr is not running a guild command, he should be open to the public, and if he’s the only cmdr on, he shouldn’t be allowed to boot ppl for any reason if they are actively contributing and the squad is not full. Simple solution. Everyone happy. We all do our best. We all try to win. We all get to play, which is why we bought the game.

Osu.6307:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Osu.6307:

I love these "I’m a great wvw player so why oh why do I get kicked for playing a roaming class (ranger, thief, engi, mesmer). You are playing a roaming class. Go ROAM! If you really wanted to zerg, you would play a zerg class. Good commanders will allow crappy guardians into squad and kick amazing rangers, WHICH SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!!!

so much for play the game your way. I will rebut this by saying that I think its funny that anyone would take wvw seriously in 2017 when there are no rewards or anything gained really by getting rank 1 server at the end of the week.

Your rebuttal is meaningless. Most of us who play wvw have been playing since launch, when the “rewards” were 1% of what they are now. We play because we enjoy the game mode. The reward is fun. If you want rewards like loot and gold, go run around in circles in silverwastes with the other zombies.

You say you can’t play the game your way, but what you really want is everyone else to play your way. Zerging is a team sport. Either play by the rules or get cut from the team.

Tolerant. Nice. And wrong.

Change the rules. Don’t allow boots from a non-full squad if there’s only 1 cmdr for any reason except afk.

Also, why does he have to go to pve? He wants the wvw shiny – it suits his aesthetics.

Cynz.9437:

So many misinformed people in wvw by the looks of it. Obviously never saw proper played staff/bound thief in zerg. Those thieves do better job at killing enemy zerg and living longer than your average guard spamming staff1 which is squad usually filled with.

I have also experienced same thing as Op. Even if squad wasn’t full and comm was advertising for people to join the squad, any thief was constantly kicked and verbally harassed for actually joining (i was told to have cancer for example for simply playing the class, how lovely). WvW became more toxic than raids and pvp together.

For my part, i was told that thief is not worth it and doesn’t deserve it to be part of the squad. However when those oh so glorious squad members went down and cried for rez, i had my last laugh and told them “you are not worth the rez” (although i could have easily rezzed them).

I agree. So much toxicity in WvW. And why? All of it, from what I can see, is coming from elitists/vets.

I was berated mercilessly for being deaf and other forms of abuse for more than 3 hrs because I complained about being kicked from a squad I had been in all day because the newly joined cmdr to our squad required TS even tho I politely told him and he knew I was deaf.

I know when I get booted for not being on TS or for running one of my other classes, it angers and humiliates me no end, especially when theres no good reason and no good net positive squad effect from the boot. There is no justification for booting anyone who is actively playing from a partly full squad when there is only 1 cmdr on in ur land.

It creates animosity and bad blood. When it happens, the toxicity level for everyone raises dramatically, and I don’t blame u for not rezzing. I will never do anything for a cmdr or squad that has booted me.

Great team play! Great happy, cooperative community/teamwork. So unnecessary, esp since the net effect improvement/reward to the squad is imaginary or negligible. Is it really worth it to be angering so many for so little or no gain? Come on ppl.

Cynz.9437:

So many misinformed people in wvw by the looks of it. Obviously never saw proper played staff/bound thief in zerg. Those thieves do better job at killing enemy zerg and living longer than your average guard spamming staff1 which is squad usually filled with.

I have also experienced same thing as Op. Even if squad wasn’t full and comm was advertising for people to join the squad, any thief was constantly kicked and verbally harassed for actually joining (i was told to have cancer for example for simply playing the class, how lovely). WvW became more toxic than raids and pvp together.

For my part, i was told that thief is not worth it and doesn’t deserve it to be part of the squad. However when those oh so glorious squad members went down and cried for rez, i had my last laugh and told them “you are not worth the rez” (although i could have easily rezzed them).

On your logic, we should be having 2 thieves + 3 others per squad, right?

I don’t have a lot of time to play so I try to find action where I can while I’m on. That means I can’t spend a bunch of downtime roaming but I do float around a lot, I’ll hit small stuff on my way to the squad lines. I’m generally without all those group buffs anyway and while they’re nice in a big fight, I mostly generate what I need for myself and only really need the full spread if I’m on Daredevil Staff with condi clear on evade since I’m fighting mostly middle and middle to outer instead of outer and outer to middle like on other builds.

Even getting a slot in squad, I know my group is a filter group anyway and buffs will change constantly so I still rely on my own kit. It’s why in squad now I only get on Staff if I know there’s going to be a certain momentum and I know where it’s heading so I know how far I need to stretch out the resource bars for that build. Otherwise, I’m taking Shadow arts for fast stealth rez, condi clear and damage reduction, and most importantly boon strips including Rending Shade from SA line. Depending on what I need at the moment I’ll use different boon strip combos as some take a generic boon while others take a whole stack.

Regardless of being in squad or not, use that blobs location and route to your benefit. You’ll crank out that reward track faster seeing through stomps and everything more so than just running with the herd tagging everything being nuked.