Guild Wars 2

I would be happy with permastow even if I get no buff from it.

You see the interesting thing about pets vs other minions, is that for the most part your not really punished that much for the loss of other minions, because for the most part they are a momentary boost to their base power, or confined only to utility slots.

• Clones and Phantasms while being a core mechanic, are rapidly created and destroyed and can even be traited to use conditions on death, and are only used while in combat. They also covey the benefit of looking like you.
  And so their limited AI does not hinder them beyond standing out from the player.

• Turrets are stationary, so they don’t suffer from any of the movement problems with AI, thou they do have some targeting issues. They also can be traited to do damage on death.

• Elementals are fairly powerful if simple, but they covey the benefit of having several elementals ties to only a couple of skills.

• Minions suffer from many of the same issues as pets and for the same reasons.
  However they can also be traited to deal damage on death, but at the end of the day they are optional.

• Spirit Weapons fall into a similar category as above, trading power for longevity.

When taken as a whole, most summons are either optional, or temporary in nature, usually with some sort of benefit that can be traited for on death.
The Ranger pet however doesn’t get these benefits, and you have to suffer from every problem the comes with having them out at all times.
If they die, you lose a hefty chunk of your damage output, and there is never an upside to this.

Of course unlike optional minions the add to your overall power, minus utility slots, pet’s subtract from your power in order to equalize the overall amount.
So your weaker by a fairly considerable amount if your pet either dies, or is unable to function because of AI issues, which by now we have all experienced.

-

So, how about taking a page from other more successful attempts at AI minions when discussing pets?

Such as perhaps instead of being permanently out at all times, they functioned more like a cross between Elemental summons and Phantasms.
You summon them, they do a bunch of damage or support/tanking for a short duration, then go away. If they die, they can be traited for on death effects.
While on cooldown or in storage if you will, they have some other skill the becomes available for the F2 slot, like the Engineers utilities skills.

That way you could fix several problems in one foal swoop.
You wouldn’t have to worry about pathing, since they are temporary the likely won’t be around that long.
Pet death is not longer as crippling as it is, so them dying in AOE due to not knowing not to isn’t as much of an issue.
The damage percentage they take from the Ranger can be given back, at least in part, taking the new design of pets into account, ala clones and phantasms.
As long as they can then reliably deal the damage they need to, or whatever role the pet is meant to, then being temporary would be a much greater asset then being permanent.

I completely agree with the idea of thinking about ranger pets as more permanent or even always on summoned pet. As you rightly point out no other pet sucks damage from it’s master to exist. If pets are to be constant companions that’s OK, but they should never subtract from the ranger’s core damage. If rangers get too strong (which will never happen in this game) then Nerf the pet, not the ranger.

xallever.1874:

As Allie didn’t want this CDI to be all about the permastow option (or turning it into an aspect), I’d just like to come up with a poll:

http://poll.pollcode.com/38561745

Obviously, a significant majority will be telling factor (not close to 50-50), but even without the percentage, if there are enough participants, I think the numbers also will show some weight.

The point of this is to lessen speculative statements for future discussions.

I hope everyone who has an opinion would take part in this short ‘yes’ or ‘no’ poll. I’d also post this in the Aspect thread.

Dev: You will not have 3 arms in this game. Please don’t talk about that on this thread so we can focus on other things instead.
Player: OK I made this poll on wanting 3 arms instead of 2. All go and vote!

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

If the Ranger is not expected to do burst damage, then the usefulness of traits/skills such as:

-Opening strike
-Alpha Training
-Precise Strike
-Beastmaster’s Might (signets have long recharges and the might provided by them is little)
-Moment of Clarity
-Peak Strength (the timeframe this trait remains active is really only utilized properly through bursting)
-Signet of the Hunt (Active)
-Signet of the Wild (Active)
-Hilt Bash (effect on pet)

Are in serious question.

All of these prominent utilities scream bursting — not so much sustain. Perhaps if Rangers had access to more stealth, the Marksmanship traitline would grow more viable. I cannot say what that would do to the balance of the ranger, however.

Also, being a master of sustain isn’t always a good thing. Bursting is far more useful as enemies often die before they can attack back. In the sake of build diversity, there should be enemies or reasons Rangers (or any profession for that matter) would want to consider going sustain inplace of burst.

How long will this thread be open?

The Outcome/Changes that comes of this discussion, when will they be implemented aproximatley (months? year?)

Thanks for doing this for my beloved main Ranger !

Razor.9872:

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

If the Ranger is not expected to do burst damage, then the usefulness of traits/skills such as:

-Opening strike
-Alpha Training
-Precise Strike
-Beastmaster’s Might (signets have long recharges and the might provided by them is little)
-Moment of Clarity
-Peak Strength (the timeframe this trait remains active is really only utilized properly through bursting)
-Signet of the Hunt (Active)
-Signet of the Wild (Active)
-Hilt Bash (effect on pet)

Are in serious question.

All of these prominent utilities scream bursting — not so much sustain. Perhaps if Rangers had access to more stealth, the Marksmanship traitline would grow more viable. I cannot say what that would do to the balance of the ranger, however.

Also, being a master of sustain isn’t always a good thing. Bursting is far more useful as enemies often die before they can attack back. In the sake of build diversity, there should be enemies or reasons Rangers (or any profession for that matter) would want to consider going sustain inplace of burst.

Also the Nerf to our previously very good dodge pool without any increase in survivability to compensate. Message: Survive Less.

We have 3 ranged main hand weapons in a game that penalizes ranged combat, and one of our 2 melee weapons is a PvP weapon only (I’m looking at you sword). So in a dungeon our great sword is our only reliable damage unless you take sword off auto attack and click another button to break sword’s cycle which is lame. Our skills scream that we are a burst class, our weapon skills say we are ranged or dodgers, and a third of our damage is put in paws of crazy pets. The class feels thrown together and forgotten.

Yoh.8469:

You see the interesting thing about pets vs other minions, is that for the most part your not really punished that much for the loss of other minions, because for the most part they are a momentary boost to their base power, or confined only to utility slots.

• Clones and Phantasms while being a core mechanic, are rapidly created and destroyed and can even be traited to use conditions on death, and are only used while in combat. They also covey the benefit of looking like you.
  And so their limited AI does not hinder them beyond standing out from the player.

• Turrets are stationary, so they don’t suffer from any of the movement problems with AI, thou they do have some targeting issues. They also can be traited to do damage on death.

• Elementals are fairly powerful if simple, but they covey the benefit of having several elementals ties to only a couple of skills.

• Minions suffer from many of the same issues as pets and for the same reasons.
  However they can also be traited to deal damage on death, but at the end of the day they are optional.

• Spirit Weapons fall into a similar category as above, trading power for longevity.

When taken as a whole, most summons are either optional, or temporary in nature, usually with some sort of benefit that can be traited for on death.
The Ranger pet however doesn’t get these benefits, and you have to suffer from every problem the comes with having them out at all times.
If they die, you lose a hefty chunk of your damage output, and there is never an upside to this.

Of course unlike optional minions the add to your overall power, minus utility slots, pet’s subtract from your power in order to equalize the overall amount.
So your weaker by a fairly considerable amount if your pet either dies, or is unable to function because of AI issues, which by now we have all experienced.

-

So, how about taking a page from other more successful attempts at AI minions when discussing pets?

Such as perhaps instead of being permanently out at all times, they functioned more like a cross between Elemental summons and Phantasms.
You summon them, they do a bunch of damage or support/tanking for a short duration, then go away. If they die, they can be traited for on death effects.
While on cooldown or in storage if you will, they have some other skill the becomes available for the F2 slot, like the Engineers utilities skills.

That way you could fix several problems in one foal swoop.
You wouldn’t have to worry about pathing, since they are temporary the likely won’t be around that long.
Pet death is not longer as crippling as it is, so them dying in AOE due to not knowing not to isn’t as much of an issue.
The damage percentage they take from the Ranger can be given back, at least in part, taking the new design of pets into account, ala clones and phantasms.
As long as they can then reliably deal the damage they need to, or whatever role the pet is meant to, then being temporary would be a much greater asset then being permanent.

Give this man a cookie.

Other classes core mechanic is extra. Our mechanic is leeching our powers.

Hi Allie!

Thanks for the clarification.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Re: Lack of participation

• I apologize that I had been absent from this thread for a few days. I had to produce Ready Up last week and a number of other things came up that took priority (including getting a virus that meant I left early for the week).

Get better soon!

Allie Murdock.8152:

• Just because we’re not responding doesn’t mean we’re not reading.
  • Sometimes we just don’t get the time to respond, but we’ll try to get better about this.

I think most people are aware that you can’t comment everything. Becomming sick is a different issue. Other things taking priority, too. However, since this is supposed to be a collaborative thread we really need a bit more information and guidance regarding which ideas you guys enjoyed and you would like us to elaborate. Maybe there are specific proposals you’d like to discuss?

I am not a ranger but though this may be an interesting idea for the class.

Proposed added skill or skill change for the Ranger class.

For Balance purposes I have not added skill, Active Time, buff/s, debuff/s or Effect/s as I am
no expert so i shall leave that up to you and the devs to discuss as it would be far to easy to become OP

Possible skill names:
Rampage as One – Currently used in gw2,
Predatory Bond – Not currently used in gw2.
Have you thought of a better name ? please add

Elite Skill.
For (0…0…*0) seconds, Stow and merge with your current pet,
(No effect unless your pet is alive)
[Place skill effects here]

• example: Stability:
• example: Fury:
• example: Quickness:
• example: Haste

1.5s Activation time – 240 Recharge time,
Profession: Ranger,
Type: Pet,
Slot: Elite.

Usefulness:
Skill Active time could be ( level, trait, or even weapon dependent )

This skill could be used to get around players wanting to stow there pet/s and gain the pets power for a short period of time.

This skill could also be a “Form” Changing the appearance of the player.

Pyrotechnic Hell.3209:

I am not a ranger but though this may be an interesting idea for the class.

Proposed added skill or skill change for the Ranger class.

For Balance purposes I have not added skill, Active Time, buff/s, debuff/s or Effect/s as I am
no expert so i shall leave that up to you and the devs to discuss as it would be far to easy to become OP

Possible skill names:
Rampage as One – Currently used in gw2,
Predatory Bond – Not currently used in gw2.
Have you thought of a better name ? please add

Elite Skill.
For (0…0…*0) seconds, Stow and merge with your current pet,
(No effect unless your pet is alive)
[Place skill effects here]

• example: Stability:
• example: Fury:
• example: Quickness:
• example: Haste

1.5s Activation time – 240 Recharge time,
Profession: Ranger,
Type: Pet,
Slot: Elite.

Usefulness:
Skill Active time could be ( level, trait, or even weapon dependent )

This skill could be used to get around players wanting to stow there pet/s and gain the pets power for a short period of time.

This skill could also be a “Form” Changing the appearance of the player.

Name: Oversoul

….I read Shaman King waaaaaay too much…

I suggested this a year ago, it went nowhere. Hopefully it will have a better response now. I really like the idea of aspects. My only problem with it now is the use of an elite skill slot. Spirit of Nature is kitten ed handy in groups.
Saying that it could be applied to the temp pet stow slot since pets no longer agro. The present temp-stow is basically useless anyway.

Rampage as One could then be used in with it. Perhaps, providing different bonuses in some way.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

Sorry I haven’t had time to comment in here. I went through the past 10 or so pages and tried to grab some of the issues that have come up and address them. The balance team has been keeping up with the thread, but they haven’t had as much time lately to comment on specific ideas.

Re: “Shot down” ideas

• The only thing we are not open to is a real permastow option that would essentially take away the pet completely (ie an option that said always stow).

Sorry i just came across this in dev tracker and did not read the full topic, but i just don’t get the point of why not?

What i would love to see that if i use the Stow option that the pet stays stowed untill i call it back out (by use of the pet skill, unstow or pet swap) and that it not comes out as soon is i get hit, or attack.

NOTE i do not want any buff or what ever in return for this.

The reason is that at some points in the game i rather not have my pet come out, like during jumping puzzles were they block my view or during battles like the MAW in fractals. Specially Maw becomes quite a pain with 2 or more ranger in the party as 2/7 times a pet is targeted, dragging the battle out longer.

So basically just don’t let the pet come out when in combat or hit when i stow it (if i want it back i can use unstow, petswap or the pet skill let it come back out.

Criminal.5627:

Aidenwolf.5964:

A ranger without a pet is nothing like a warrior. Our weapon skills are nowhere near as good as warrior. Lose pets and buff traps and redesign our bow skills and sword and then we’d be somethng special.

Pet AI hasn’t improved since beta so my suggestions to improve the class disregard the pet as Anet has done during the life of the game. They probably will improve F2 but it took a year and a half to do just that. As I’ve said before, with ascended gearing I want to only play my ranger, and they need to be fixed.

I know a ranger without a pet is nothing like a warrior, I am just using that as an example of a ranger without a pet is a class with no mechanic, low skill ceiling, and boring repetitive play style. Which is very much like other MMOs where you can press skills in order half asleep and still be competitive with someone widely aware of the fight.
…it is like Mesmer without any clones, or thief with no initiative if that makes it better for you.

Your example is extremely poor. Horribly bad. Why? Because they core mechanics for other classes work. I cannot speak for the Necro as I don’t have one, but I have one of the other seven. They all work. Steal for the thief is not great, but the initiative works. And yes, the thief has two core class mechanics. Clones work on my Mesmer. Adrenaline does it’s job on my Warrior. Virtues work on my guardian as expected. Toolbelt skills work on my engineer as I expect them to and when I hit the button (although some of those cooldowns seem a bit much). Switching between attunements and said attunements work on my Ele. The only core mechanic that does NOT work as EXPECTED is the pet. So I repeat, from my playing experience, your example is bad. Bad bad.

Shadowbane.7109:

I would be happy with permastow even if I get no buff from it.

I hear that so much between map/say/guild chats.

wolfyrik.2017:

Name: Oversoul

….I read Shaman King waaaaaay too much…

I suggested this a year ago, it went nowhere. Hopefully it will have a better response now. I really like the idea of aspects. My only problem with it now is the use of an elite skill slot. Spirit of Nature is kitten ed handy in groups.
Saying that it could be applied to the temp pet stow slot since pets no longer agro. The present temp-stow is basically useless anyway.

Rampage as One could then be used in with it. Perhaps, providing different bonuses in some way.

The Reasons for the “Elite Skill” Status is because it would be a “Form” you would merge with you pet.

Also the Devs said they will not implement a Perma-Stow option, being an elite would allow for a slightly longer active merge time than a utility skill and with that a longer skill cool-down period forcing the pet to be active for at least the down time of the skill avoiding perma-stow but allowing the skill to still be useful.

Aridia.3042:

DiogoSilva.7089:

The negative consequence behind “fixing the AI”, is that it would promote even more passive playing in PvP.

For this reason, the pet system DOES needs a redesign.

Making most pet skills requiring manual input from the player to trigger could be the solution. It could also promote rewarding skill sequences between the pet and the ranger, moving the profession away from too much passive, and more into a skill-sequence-driven profession (like an engineer, elementalist, etc). That would be healthy to the competitive side of the game, but also very fun by itself.

AoE resistance (but lower health so that targetted effects can counter it), innate faster moving speed, and a way to flag the pet would also be awesome.

Pet flagging could be a ground-targetted sequence skill that would force the pet to go to choosen location until the skill is clicked on again.

This. x100 times.

AI bots are not interesting to play with, boring to watch, and annoying to play against because it feels cheap.

These are not things you want in a healthy competitive scene. They introduce far too much randomness and skill debasement into the meta.

Stop and think about what “fixing pet AI” means. It means they should hit more consistently, in this case, without input. All that’ll get you is more QQ in the spvp forum, and get you less people interested in the game because the concept of watching a bot in doing what you’re suppose to be doing is frankly the antithesis to real competition.

Higher skill cap is a good thing, whether it be in the form of multiple pet/aspect rotation, (2 is not enough) or manual controlling both damage sources of the toon.

Thus why fixing the AI wont magically fix all problems. Fixing the ranger and further destroying pvp’s competitive side go side-by-side due to the current design behind the entire profession. Anet can “improve” the current pet system, but its faulty nature will remain unless the core is re-designed.

All pet’s non auto attacks should require manual input. Anet shouldn’t even be concerned about overwhelming new players this way. If coupled with an improved AI, and the fact that most non-F2 skills are shared among pet types, by itself, already gives breathing room for new players to learn the game while still go through early mobs without much difficulty.

Think of how much fun it would be for rangers, if the other pet’s skills had to be manually triggered.

Ranger Aspect = Dervish? That’s exciting.

Rin of Rivvinda.4971:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

Sorry I haven’t had time to comment in here. I went through the past 10 or so pages and tried to grab some of the issues that have come up and address them. The balance team has been keeping up with the thread, but they haven’t had as much time lately to comment on specific ideas.

Re: “Shot down” ideas

• The only thing we are not open to is a real permastow option that would essentially take away the pet completely (ie an option that said always stow).

Sorry i just came across this in dev tracker and did not read the full topic, but i just don’t get the point of why not?

What i would love to see that if i use the Stow option that the pet stays stowed untill i call it back out (by use of the pet skill, unstow or pet swap) and that it not comes out as soon is i get hit, or attack.

NOTE i do not want any buff or what ever in return for this.

The reason is that at some points in the game i rather not have my pet come out, like during jumping puzzles were they block my view or during battles like the MAW in fractals. Specially Maw becomes quite a pain with 2 or more ranger in the party as 2/7 times a pet is targeted, dragging the battle out longer.

So basically just don’t let the pet come out when in combat or hit when i stow it (if i want it back i can use unstow, petswap or the pet skill let it come back out.

I don’t believe that’s what Allie is denying us. That is clearly a game bug and a pet that is stowed should remained stowed until summoned. This is needed to avoid very pet-unfriendly mechanics like Jade Maw.

What Allie is refusing is a Ranger being allowed to stow their pet in exchange for a flat damage increase so the Ranger would never unstow the pet.

No…

•The only thing we are not open to is a real permastow option that would essentially take away the pet completely (ie an option that said always stow).

That means there is no perma-stow option. Period. That leaves no room for interpretation. It’ll be exactly as it is now. The we-todd-ed pet will not be always stowed away which means there is a time it will be forced back out. It is most likely that things will remain as they are and when you enter combat it will come back out by force, otherwise it would be perma-stowed which Allie said that is not an option.

So yeah, my hope for the class is dead. Breaks my heart that the Ranger will always be handicapped by the pet. I guess I can just learn to love my thief as much as my Ranger… eventually. I did move my brony bow to my thief afterall as I expected this outcome despite the hope my heart was holding.

A few comments:
Pet-auto-dodge when hit for x% of it’s life
Problem is that you want pet to dodge before it get hits…
So overall AoE reduction OR pet dodge on master’s dodge would be better…
Problem, if we have to dodge for two, we need some more evades…
Here, risk would balance itself out… if we lose the pet, we lose damage, but we still able to be “resilient”…
Other solution:
-System knows when AoE/strong spell is cast; make the pet avoid it/move out of it without master’s input…
-have a built-in pet repositionning tool (go there fast and stay until I tell you otherwise)

On pet hitting:
- Pet should have perma quickness built-in (not just speed of movement, but speed of attack also. Even forgetting about responsiveness issue, F2 is just too long to cast
- and cleave attacks

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

Jocksy.3415:

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

You forgot the most important one:
- why isn’t active/passive on a keybind?

DiogoSilva.7089:

Think of how much fun it would be for rangers, if the other pet’s skills had to be manually triggered.

I was thinking of maybe (due to the limited slot F1 to F4) bond the other non-auto attack of our pet with our own skills (weapon or utilities skills) ?
Two skills will be launched (from the ranger and his pet) from a single input. This could allow some synergy, and combos.

PS : Sorry for my bad english xD

Dalanor.5387:

I just want to throw in that Necromancers was advertised also as a attrition, sustain based class and it became a ranged condi nuker. Just sayin.
On topic:
This whole sustained damage thingy should be throw out in the window. Every class should(!) have options to play a more spike oriented way or give up some burst to get some extra sustain from their builds. Of course condi builds are slower by their nature, but with a main hand axe ranger is already in a decent position with it.

That’s actually a good point.

And Necros also have a pretty decent variety in builds; it’s apparent that their design philosophy is a lot more fluid than Ranger’s.

Atherakhia.4086:

Rin of Rivvinda.4971:

…

I don’t believe that’s what Allie is denying us. That is clearly a game bug and a pet that is stowed should remained stowed until summoned. This is needed to avoid very pet-unfriendly mechanics like Jade Maw.

What Allie is refusing is a Ranger being allowed to stow their pet in exchange for a flat damage increase so the Ranger would never unstow the pet.

Allie is not refusing or denying us anything. She is only the messenger.

Jocksy.3415:

A few comments:
Pet-auto-dodge when hit for x% of it’s life
Problem is that you want pet to dodge before it get hits…
So overall AoE reduction OR pet dodge on master’s dodge would be better…
Problem, if we have to dodge for two, we need some more evades…
Here, risk would balance itself out… if we lose the pet, we lose damage, but we still able to be “resilient”…
Other solution:
-System knows when AoE/strong spell is cast; make the pet avoid it/move out of it without master’s input…
-have a built-in pet repositionning tool (go there fast and stay until I tell you otherwise)

On pet hitting:
- Pet should have perma quickness built-in (not just speed of movement, but speed of attack also. Even forgetting about responsiveness issue, F2 is just too long to cast
- and cleave attacks

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

Atherakhia.4086:

Jocksy.3415:

A few comments:
Pet-auto-dodge when hit for x% of it’s life
Problem is that you want pet to dodge before it get hits…
So overall AoE reduction OR pet dodge on master’s dodge would be better…
Problem, if we have to dodge for two, we need some more evades…
Here, risk would balance itself out… if we lose the pet, we lose damage, but we still able to be “resilient”…
Other solution:
-System knows when AoE/strong spell is cast; make the pet avoid it/move out of it without master’s input…
-have a built-in pet repositionning tool (go there fast and stay until I tell you otherwise)

On pet hitting:
- Pet should have perma quickness built-in (not just speed of movement, but speed of attack also. Even forgetting about responsiveness issue, F2 is just too long to cast
- and cleave attacks

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

This doesn’t solve any of the problems that Ranger suffers from in WvW.

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

This to me is the essence of the ranger class problem in wvw/dungeons. A ranger is really good at solo roaming, but doesn’t have any real goods to help a team. In teamwork a ranger is far worse at things than other classes. Mix in the pet as a liability sometimes gives us a “bad” name when partying.

spirits and spotter are nice for teams, though we need to spec for it to make it work, which means we loose damage or survivability. Speccing 20 for spotter and 20 for spirits to follow, leaves us with only 30 points left. Those 30 will mean less precision or less toughness…

My only addition would be to make spirits follow a lower trait and move spotter to marksman skirmishing, and increase our abilities for meaningful aoe and boons.

Atherakhia.4086:

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

Not quite that easy there are many “1 shot” mechanics that are in fact numerous hit (usually 3-ish) and some that ignore blocking mechanics entirely.

Flytrap.8075:

Atherakhia.4086:

Jocksy.3415:

A few comments:
Pet-auto-dodge when hit for x% of it’s life
Problem is that you want pet to dodge before it get hits…
So overall AoE reduction OR pet dodge on master’s dodge would be better…
Problem, if we have to dodge for two, we need some more evades…
Here, risk would balance itself out… if we lose the pet, we lose damage, but we still able to be “resilient”…
Other solution:
-System knows when AoE/strong spell is cast; make the pet avoid it/move out of it without master’s input…
-have a built-in pet repositionning tool (go there fast and stay until I tell you otherwise)

On pet hitting:
- Pet should have perma quickness built-in (not just speed of movement, but speed of attack also. Even forgetting about responsiveness issue, F2 is just too long to cast
- and cleave attacks

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

This doesn’t solve any of the problems that Ranger suffers from in WvW.

It does just as much as allowing the pet to dodge when the Ranger does plus the added benefit of gaining Aegis anytime the Ranger uses an evade skill.

Still an improvement. No where did I say it was all that was needed.

Bran.7425:

Atherakhia.4086:

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

Not quite that easy there are many “1 shot” mechanics that are in fact numerous hit (usually 3-ish) and some that ignore blocking mechanics entirely.

Fair enough… but avoiding one of the 3 hits will likely keep the pet alive. Certainly long enough to swap the pet which is apparently ANet’s intended solution to this problem.

Like I said in the other post, it’s not ideal… it will only help and, in my opinion, makes more sense than expecting the Ranger to dodge once for themselves and once for their pet. I don’t see players actively trying to avoid damage their pet will take, plus it’s a DPS loss dodging when you don’t need to.

misterdevious.6482:

Specific Game Mode
WvW (the mode I play most but would affect other modes)

Proposal Overview
A new Swarm/Insect family of pets that functions like a living aura (something like Locust Swarm) that can surround the player defensively or be sent with F2 to deal damage over time to a target.

Goal of Proposal
To create a compromise pet family which serves the same purpose of a pet without actually being an autonomous, named physical entity. Hopefully this could be an acceptable compromise for the people who don’t want a pet. Offer a nature-themed pet-aura that could be reliably useful in extreme situations where regular pets have difficulties.

Proposal Functionality
Unlike normal pets, these pets would be summoned into existence with the F2 skill. They would deteriorate over time and then dissipate. They could not be targeted or killed.

F2 Summon Hornets -> Hornet Swarm -> Recall

Summon Hornets: Summon a swarm of hornets to absorb 10% incoming damage and torment nearby foes.
Hornet Swarm: Send your swarm to furiously attack, damaging and tormenting your foe.
Recall: Your pet returns to you.

F2 Summon Monarchs -> Dazzling Flight -> Recall
Summon Monarchs: Summon a flight of monarchs to convert incoming conditions into boons (5% chance) and confuse nearby foes.
Dazzling Flight: Send a flight of butterflies to confuse your target.
Recall: Your pet returns to you.

Associated Risks
Tons of unanswered function questions.

• What should the uptime be on a swarm?
• Should there be a way for the target to remove the swarm like removing other PvE on your face effects?
• Should the swarm’s health deteriorate at the same rate while defending and attacking or should attacking drain faster?
• What other effects/skills might swarms share?
• What complications arise from not being a technical entity? Interactions with skills/traits. Not having a cute name. What else?
• When not summoned they could be considered perma-stowed. What issues would this cause in the game and in the community? Should the swarm be summoned automatically when hit?

Technical issues galore. It is still a nature aspect which some of the “archer not druid” players might still object to. Multiple rangers using swarms on the same target (particle overloading). Confusion because of control/behavior differences with traditional pets.

This sounds quite good idea that can work and make people that ask aspects added happy. But unlike your suggestion i think these pets should be something that doesn’t do direct damage and cant be really used for attacking. Instead they purpose is support ranger by they skills. one of these pets might be able add different conditions on ranger attacks while other one help ranger survive by extra healing, condition removal and damage mitigation and one can be rangers own little buffing machine with abilities to give ranger might, fury, etc. Maybe F2 skill can be only skill on these pets kitten nal that do damage on enemy targets in certain area from ranger.

thefantasticg.3984:

Jocksy.3415:

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

You forgot the most important one:
- why isn’t active/passive on a keybind?

lol!
Can also add:
- Why is the pet on aggressive unable to stay on the target I set for it? Why does it feel compelled to get on my target before finishing it’s target?

Sumashu.4168:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Think of how much fun it would be for rangers, if the other pet’s skills had to be manually triggered.

I was thinking of maybe (due to the limited slot F1 to F4) bond the other non-auto attack of our pet with our own skills (weapon or utilities skills) ?
Two skills will be launched (from the ranger and his pet) from a single input. This could allow some synergy, and combos.

PS : Sorry for my bad english xD

I like the idea, but I don’t see it being implemented – unless we get to chose on what attack the pet uses which skills. And hard to design for the pet to either stay on it’s target or be close to us, depending on the skill :s

Atherakhia.4086:

Jocksy.3415:

snip

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

Reason why I marked dodge and not aegis is that dodging usually gets you out of AoE, while aegis blocks one attack.
Many AoE are pulsing, or else, there is a pack of AoE in one spot. Aegis would block one, but not any other.
Pet dodging would be in the same direction as ranger, making it possible to somewhat control where the pet will end up.
Aegis would be good with a “get out of there” control; that would allow the pet to move out of danger pretty nicely.
But despite the loss of DPS – more would be gain from an alive pet in the long run, imho…

Kootje.9271:

Allie Murdock.8152:

The Ranger isn’t expected to do burst damage. By sustained, we mean that the Ranger should excel at surviving (resilient) through burst while still doing enough damage over time to take the opponent down.

This to me is the essence of the ranger class problem in wvw/dungeons. A ranger is really good at solo roaming, but doesn’t have any real goods to help a team. In teamwork a ranger is far worse at things than other classes. Mix in the pet as a liability sometimes gives us a “bad” name when partying.

spirits and spotter are nice for teams, though we need to spec for it to make it work, which means we loose damage or survivability. Speccing 20 for spotter and 20 for spirits to follow, leaves us with only 30 points left. Those 30 will mean less precision or less toughness…

My only addition would be to make spirits follow a lower trait and move spotter to marksman, and increase our abilities for meaningful aoe and boons.

Spotter is in markmanship, perhaps you mean a different trait line? I doubt we will be seeing “meaningful” aoe as the design philosophy state the intention for ranger to be single target focused.

I think the major problem at this point is that the current game is not designed to work as well with a sustain/single target play style and to reduce the shock of the shift (that would allow non-burst to function) they are taking small steps, while not addressing that ranger (and any other sustain focused profession) would like to function in the present not in just a pipe dream balance future that may or may not ever be fully implemented.

The is also an issue with a divide in the profession that are not willing to accept the shift in focus away from either burst and/or area-of-effect.

I think it would not be an unreasonable request to have the design team perhaps do a live stream/or a pre-recorded video to address the reasons for the shift in focus and to give the community the information it will need to grow into that shift (or to change professions/game mode/game).

Jocksy.3415:

thefantasticg.3984:

Jocksy.3415:

QoL
- why does the pet needs to be in combat for traits to work on it (like boons duration)
- why can’t I see it’s buffs/alterations?
- why can’t the pet jump with me?
- why can’t they remember their names?

You forgot the most important one:
- why isn’t active/passive on a keybind?

lol!
Can also add:
- Why is the pet on aggressive unable to stay on the target I set for it? Why does it feel compelled to get on my target before finishing it’s target?

Sumashu.4168:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Think of how much fun it would be for rangers, if the other pet’s skills had to be manually triggered.

I was thinking of maybe (due to the limited slot F1 to F4) bond the other non-auto attack of our pet with our own skills (weapon or utilities skills) ?
Two skills will be launched (from the ranger and his pet) from a single input. This could allow some synergy, and combos.

PS : Sorry for my bad english xD

I like the idea, but I don’t see it being implemented – unless we get to chose on what attack the pet uses which skills. And hard to design for the pet to either stay on it’s target or be close to us, depending on the skill :s

Atherakhia.4086:

Jocksy.3415:

snip

This is why I still think the better solution is to simply give the pet aegis on Ranger dodge or evade.

This way the Ranger doesn’t need to dodge for himself and a second time for the pet. Simply dodging once will grant the pet enough protection from 1 hit mechanics. It would also give the pet much needed surviability in WvW.

A short internal cooldown of one aegis every 5 seconds to ensure the pet doesn’t get one every GS cycle is all it would take to keep it balanced.

Give the aegis a reasonable duration and call it aday.

Reason why I marked dodge and not aegis is that dodging usually gets you out of AoE, while aegis blocks one attack.
Many AoE are pulsing, or else, there is a pack of AoE in one spot. Aegis would block one, but not the other.
Pet dodging would be in the same direction as ranger, making it possible to somewhat control where the pet will end up.
Aegis would be good with a “get out of there” control; that would allow the pet to move out of danger pretty nicely.

Oh I certainly understand the benefits of allowing the pet to dodge when the Ranger does. I just don’t think anyone would waste their dodge to save their pet. Plus there’s a DPS loss when doing it that most people aren’t going to want to deal with.

Aegis on the other hand is more passive in nature and doesn’t really require the Ranger to play in a different way to keep their pet alive.

Neither is ideal imo.

Aidenwolf.5964:

I completely agree with dumping the pet and going with the aspect as well. You can keep your pet or put it away, it’s your choice. Anet saying that pets are important to the ranger and are a core class mechanic is a bit silly tbh because they’ve been broken the whole time. If you didn’t bother to fix them then why are you so against letting us stow them?

If all we get is a LONG OVERDUE fix to F2 response time then we’re still sub par. Take this a time to look at what players are asking for please.

This is essentially how I feel.

I think they wont solve pet problem.
Who remember the I will avange you skill from gw1?
What if you gain a bonus like that if your pet is down or merge it with the rampage as one elite.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Re: “Shot down” ideas

• The only thing we are not open to is a real permastow option that would essentially take away the pet completely (ie an option that said always stow).
  • We kicked around the idea of giving the ranger an “aspect of _______” which we moved to a new thread because it is elaborate and should be a single topic in itself. The idea is that it would give the pet more utility with swapping/stowing, but it wouldn’t retire the pet completely.
    • We want to fix issues with the pet AI and general usability before we consider doing something to this extent.
• We acknowledged that Pet AI does need help, but we did not say we would not be doing this. You will see some changes in the coming feature patch that should help with the pet’s usability.

What about giving more “pet” options, that don’t work as the current pet does?

Quoting myself: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/6#post3685201

Lonami.2987:

==Proposal Functionality==

Right now, we only have one role, an active pet. The proposal is to define the existing role and add two new ones:

• Beastmaster – Unit role: The current version, you can give basics orders to a unit, your pet, that can be killed, leaving you without his benefits.
• Druid – Skill role: A skill bar with nature-themed magic abilities. It could follow the pet theme, too, but without the unit, like a swarms of insects. Maybe they could work like effects. For example, rain effect, you summon a small rain that is used like a pet. The basic difference is that it can’t be killed.
• Marksman – Passive role: A series of passive and active abilities that improve your skills while the skill bar is selected. If you switch to another skill bar you lose the passive bonus. Ideal for playing as the classic ranger archetype that has no pet.

The idea is that, in the special slot of your mechanic bar, you can put many things, and not just a pet, giving you many customization options. Kinda like letting you choose a style between beastmaster, druid or marksman. And of course you could always combine them, having a pet in one slot and a skill bar in the other one.

I’m not sure you’d count this as “removal of the pet”, since it’s replaced by something similar in mechanic.

Atherakhia.4086:

Rin of Rivvinda.4971:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

Sorry I haven’t had time to comment in here. I went through the past 10 or so pages and tried to grab some of the issues that have come up and address them. The balance team has been keeping up with the thread, but they haven’t had as much time lately to comment on specific ideas.

Re: “Shot down” ideas

• The only thing we are not open to is a real permastow option that would essentially take away the pet completely (ie an option that said always stow).

Sorry i just came across this in dev tracker and did not read the full topic, but i just don’t get the point of why not?

What i would love to see that if i use the Stow option that the pet stays stowed untill i call it back out (by use of the pet skill, unstow or pet swap) and that it not comes out as soon is i get hit, or attack.

NOTE i do not want any buff or what ever in return for this.

The reason is that at some points in the game i rather not have my pet come out, like during jumping puzzles were they block my view or during battles like the MAW in fractals. Specially Maw becomes quite a pain with 2 or more ranger in the party as 2/7 times a pet is targeted, dragging the battle out longer.

So basically just don’t let the pet come out when in combat or hit when i stow it (if i want it back i can use unstow, petswap or the pet skill let it come back out.

I don’t believe that’s what Allie is denying us. That is clearly a game bug and a pet that is stowed should remained stowed until summoned. This is needed to avoid very pet-unfriendly mechanics like Jade Maw.

What Allie is refusing is a Ranger being allowed to stow their pet in exchange for a flat damage increase so the Ranger would never unstow the pet.

The Jade Maw functionality is intentional. Robert Hrouda was on the dungeon team and also had a ranger main. When multiple complaints about pets in Jade Maw were popping up, he looked into the situation and decided that it was actually a benefit for the party. He believed that in some situations the pet eases pressure on the party giving them time to acquire more shards. Many parties find this incredibly frustrating as “more time” is exactly what they don’t want, but there are times where it could be percieved as a benefit (like when two party members are down and you have no crystals, the pet might get targeted and save someone’s life).

Personally I disagree with the decision, but the reality is, they could stop Jade Maw from targeting the pet at all if they wanted to. There is no need to stow it to solve this issue, a superior fix exists. This is something I’d love to see done for dungeons. Any boss AoE that targets each party member should not target a pet (think the Nightmare Tree’s vine attack which creates and AoE circle for every ally including pets, or the egg sack drop from the old F/U path of TA). The pet can’t dodge these attacks, it’s simply not fair to have to waste a pet swap (if you’re lucky enough to have one) to avoid something that shouldn’t be an issue in the first place. What’s worse is that the AoE ring of the pet will hurt other players if they dodge into it or fail to dodge altogether. This makes pets a further burden on the party that wouldn’t exist if pets weren’t present.

The solution isn’t to get rid of pets, it’s to alter dungeon mechanics so that “dodge or die” skills don’t target the AI companion that can’t dodge.

Flytrap.8075:

Dalanor.5387:

I just want to throw in that Necromancers was advertised also as a attrition, sustain based class and it became a ranged condi nuker. Just sayin.
On topic:
This whole sustained damage thingy should be throw out in the window. Every class should(!) have options to play a more spike oriented way or give up some burst to get some extra sustain from their builds. Of course condi builds are slower by their nature, but with a main hand axe ranger is already in a decent position with it.

That’s actually a good point.

And Necros also have a pretty decent variety in builds; it’s apparent that their design philosophy is a lot more fluid than Ranger’s.

If you’re talking about overall build diversity fine, but if you’re talking about the pet restricting build diversity I have to disagree. Necromancers always have Death Shroud as that’s their class mechanic. It impacts on the class differently from the pet but it’s always there.

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
New skills on longbow.
Goal of Proposal
Improve longbows bad skill set and add some nature aspects on it.
Proposal Functionality
-Remove rapid fire and replace it with Hunter shot, which does high dmg and add thous vulnerability stacks.
-Move Point blank shot to n.3 skill.
-New skill which shot 5-7 arrow in spread pattern each of these arrows do low dmg but immobilize targets for short duration with visual effect like Entangle etc.
-Remove Barrage and replace it with new aoe skill. In this new skill ranger shot bee nest on tip of his arrow on enemy and cause blast dmg+fear around target.

Associated Risks
-Dmg numbers and effect duration’s.
-Recharge.
-Other effects.

Flytrap.8075:

So instead of simply fixing the pet mechanic, you’d like to see an overhaul of dungeon AI? I’m not sure that’s the most logical or efficient way of doing things.

Sure, I’d love to see dungeons become that much better, but I don’t think that is a realistic demand right now.

If you’ve been following this thread you should realise simply fixing the pet mechanic is not a simple fix at all.

I know they can turn off the Maw’s ability to target pets – Hrouda talked about it. It’s not an overhaul of dungeon AI it’s one thing they do have the power to change.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Oh, and in regards to the Jade Maw targeting pets, I made the conscious decision to allow it to target non-players. I have the ability to change that, but I prefer not to on the grounds that there is some gameplay there. My pet has made the ultimate sacrifice quite a few times while we res’d a down party members, providing groups with a much needed window to help others up and recover. I know it can be a bit frustrating if everything is going great and you’re not having any problems, but I’d much rather the pet provide a moment of relief for those struggling. I am open to debate on the subject, but that is for threads over in the dungeon forum, not here

DOUBLE EDIT:
Jade Maw should not target downed pets. We have a bug on it already and are aware of it.

I think reconsidering this stance is a realistic suggestion given Hrouda said it is possible.

Shiren.9532:

Flytrap.8075:

So instead of simply fixing the pet mechanic, you’d like to see an overhaul of dungeon AI? I’m not sure that’s the most logical or efficient way of doing things.

Sure, I’d love to see dungeons become that much better, but I don’t think that is a realistic demand right now.

If you’ve been following this thread you should realise simply fixing the pet mechanic is not a simple fix at all.

I know they can turn off the Maw’s ability to target pets – Hrouda talked about it. It’s not an overhaul of dungeon AI it’s one thing they do have the power to change.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Oh, and in regards to the Jade Maw targeting pets, I made the conscious decision to allow it to target non-players. I have the ability to change that, but I prefer not to on the grounds that there is some gameplay there. My pet has made the ultimate sacrifice quite a few times while we res’d a down party members, providing groups with a much needed window to help others up and recover. I know it can be a bit frustrating if everything is going great and you’re not having any problems, but I’d much rather the pet provide a moment of relief for those struggling. I am open to debate on the subject, but that is for threads over in the dungeon forum, not here

DOUBLE EDIT:
Jade Maw should not target downed pets. We have a bug on it already and are aware of it.

I think reconsidering this stance is a realistic suggestion given Hrouda said it is possible.

If you want to argue semantics, go for it.

All I meant was that in comparison, solving pet AI is going to be a lot easier than tackling dungeon AI in general.

Altering the Jade Maw interaction with pets is not going to change anything; it’s just another Band-Aid fix that doesn’t address any of the Ranger’s core issues.

This is for PVX (Pve and wvw:

Rangers have a lot of abilities they can use from melee to ranged. I see quite a few people that hate the pet in the game. I also read that some believe the pet is good but not quite there yet. If you use a pet that is fine I do agree that if someone is unhappy with or does not want to use the pet there should be a lockout for the pet. Not a stow pet, but a lock pet using a two key combo to do it. If the pet is locked out that also should increase the damage by a percentage of what the pet would do. I personally love using my pet, because I like being a beast master. That is my choice I believe the pet helps with the resilience of the ranger. They are also the best weapon the ranger has.

People complain about the f2 skill for pets they complain the pet will not attack their target sometimes. One thing people have to do is know what the pet does. The shark uses a bite it will not bite until the shark is close enough to do it. The Ice drake on the other hand uses an aoe freeze attack but will not wait until its near any foes.

Controlling a pet is easy you can have your pet attack another target while you are killing other things. I use my pet to take out statues at the end of the Hotw while I am shooting the boss. Does it change targets when I do? Nope only if I tell it to change or its destroyed

I suggest reading the skills and traits a lot more instead of copying someone’s so called meta build try to make your own.

The pet could use a bit more aoe style damage but that’s about it. As mentioned before a lockout for pet and a buff to basic ranger skill if the pet is not used.

One thing that would make a pet more epic is all attacks that a pet does hits multiple foes instead of just one.

To clear the air about pets, lets collate:
What’s positive about the pet:

• Ranger can split focus on two targets
• Harder to kite
• Adaptive utility (F2)
• Wide choice between melee/ranged, offensive/defensive pets
• Pet stats are independent of gear the ranger is wearing (Offensive pet while defensive gear, …)
• Aggrotank in solo PvE

What’s negative about the pet:

• AI too simple (Can’t hit multiple targets, can’t evade, can’t follow the ranger, unreliable in every aspect)
• If the damage is split (Ranger 70%, Pet 30%), the ranger will never deal as much damage as if the ranger has 100% of the damage.
• Pet stats are independent of gear the ranger is wearing (Pet stats wont get increased by higher-tier gear)
• Lots of traits that either boost the ranger or the pet, less traits which boost both parts
• Offers no benefit to certain playstyles
• Huge loss if pet dies (Shouts wont work, traits wont work, potential damageloss on weapons)

Feel free to enhance this list.

I’d like us to talk about what makes an AI companion as a class mechanic valuable. What things does it do well (that can’t be done by merging it’s power level into the ranger) and how it can change gameplay? What are the strengths of an AI companion?

• The ability to execute two actions at once.
  • A warrior can be hammer training me and I don’t have a stun breaker so I swap in my wolf and it fears the warrior off of me (or leaps onto it knocking him down).
  • I can be stomping or reviving an ally and the enemy is incoming with stuns, stomps, DPS or revives. I can keep resing/stomping while my wolf fears the enemy off of me.
  • I can DPS two targets at once. I can set my pet on that stealthing thief while I focus on the bunker guardian. I can down an enemy and then do something else while my pet makes sure they keep bleeding out.
  • If both my enemy and I are downed I will never lose a 1v1 downed fight. Sometimes my pet can even help down an enemy after I’ve been downed (I know the wolf knockdown and fear have bought me time to do this before I call it back to revive me and stomp my opponent).

• Additional build diversity.
  • I can go full condition with my ranger’s build but bring a jaguar and do decent direct damage via my pet. Many popular ranger builds have relied on this tactic.
  • The variety of pets gives you several different options to customise your build, whether it be Fury or Might boons, blast finishers from drakes, ranged control from spiders or tank and spank bears. Your traits and skills can stay the same, but swapping in different pets can be nice tweaks to your overall build.

I would love for the pet mechanic to focus on some of the things it already can do well and really polish those things to make it much stronger. One thing I think most pets struggle with (and the overall Beast Mastery line) is that they are often selfish. Building for the pet means making the pet better and it offers very little to the party and not enough to the ranger. I’d love to see the pet’s role in build diversity enhanced. Give the different pet families the ability to buff and support my party members. Bringing birds enhances our party’s DPS or bears enhance our party’s durability. Currently if I bring a bear, a boar or a drake I will barely notice the difference. I’d like each pet family to noticeably help myself and my party (something that would help the ranger and pet’s stigma in PvE – they will love us for our pet’s might and fury boons or the pet family’s traited stat buffs). As a ranger I then feel like pet choice matters more, it’s not just a DPS companion with a handful of questionably useful skills, it has a consistent benefit to me and my party. The amount of boons other classes can casually throw out is astounding, I’d love to see each pet family have a boon niche that it performs for the party – not an F2 skill but part of it’s basic rotation.

I also think F2 skills should be more like the wolf’s howl. I think far too many of them are just weak, they don’t justify the decision to use the skill (the eagle’s Lacerating Slash is an example). As the sole pet skill we control, I’d like to see them do something powerful, something that makes other players think "I need to watch out for this pet’s “x attack” when they see the pet. Give the bear an AoE stun, give the owl a straight line knockback that leaves a chill field in it’s wake, give the hawk the ability to channel a sand storm at their location that blinds enemies (channelled means it has counterplay). Pets are part of the jack of all trades aspect of the ranger and I think their F2 skills should be more like a sampling of useful techniques other classes can perform. I would love to send in my eagle onto the mid point at the beginning of a match and have it channel a Swirling Wind to block that engineer’s grenades for a period of time. Make the F2 skill a stun breaker so they act more responsively, hell give us a trait to give pet’s stability when casting it.

Positioning of the pet will be important, pet choice will be important, when to use the skill will be important and the reward of the skill will be greater than what we currently see. Birds currently make opponents bleed, the DPS is nice but is it the best way to utilise the strengths of a pet mechanic?

The ability to swap locations with the pet (or teleport to the pet or vice versa) would also be an interesting way to interact with the pet’s ability to occupy a separate space.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

To clear the air about pets, lets collate:

What’s negative about the pet:

• Offers no benefit to certain playstyles

I don’t see this as a negative or a positive. It will be a negative thing if it is an impediment to certain playstyles.

I don’t see the Mesmer shatter mechanic as negative if you decide to go for a phantasm-heavy build. You just simply don’t benefit it as much than if you had gone Shatter or Lockdown.

For instance, if you had gone the beastmaster route, and your pet dies too easily, makes no real threat before it’s dead, then it’s a hindrance. In which case, it will be a negative thing.

Any of the devs played WoW (up until WotLK)? Hunter pets in that game seemed to behave pretty decently and I loved playing a Beastmaster there. So what did Blizzard do that ANet can’t do as well? Numerous suggestions have already been provided, so a little indepth feedback on how you guys want to proceed would be highly appreciated.

From my perspective, the main 2 things to work on are:

• Ability to hit moving targets
• Resistance to AoE

The instant F2 is nice, but that was the easy 5 minute fix. Now we’d like to hear more about the actual changes to pet AI and survivability.

xallever.1874:

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

To clear the air about pets, lets collate:

What’s negative about the pet:

• Offers no benefit to certain playstyles

I don’t see this as a negative or a positive. It will be a negative thing if it is an impediment to certain playstyles.

I don’t see the Mesmer shatter mechanic as negative if you decide to go for a phantasm-heavy build. You just simply don’t benefit it as much than if you had gone Shatter or Lockdown.

For instance, if you had gone the beastmaster route, and your pet dies too easily, makes no real threat before it’s dead, then it’s a hindrance. In which case, it will be a negative thing.

Maybe he meant something along the lines of pets having literally no value in large-scale WvW.

Aveneo.2068:

Any of the devs played WoW (up until WotLK)? Hunter pets in that game seemed to behave pretty decently and I loved playing a Beastmaster there. So what did Blizzard do that ANet can’t do as well? Numerous suggestions have already been provided, so a little indepth feedback on how you guys want to proceed would be highly appreciated.

From my perspective, the main 2 things to work on are:

• Ability to hit moving targets
• Resistance to AoE

The instant F2 is nice, but that was the easy 5 minute fix. Now we’d like to hear more about the actual changes to pet AI and reliability.

I’ve been wondering about that as well; that game is like ten years old now and they managed to make pets work.

I’m not familiar with programming, but I don’t see how an older game like WoW could manage something like that while GW2 can’t.

Specific Game Mode
All

Proposal Overview
Revamp to class mechanic

Goal of Proposal
The subpar nature of our current class mechanic

Proposal Functionality
It makes the Ranger what it is proposed to be, rather than shoe horning it into a beastmaster roll alone

Associated Risks
Would need balancing

Proposal
Taking a page from an earlier proposal, I suggest that the ranger mechanic be shifted to one of stance shifting. There would be three stances:

Beastmaster: This would essentially be the same as the current ranger. You have your pet, it has it’s F2 ability. F3 would be attack if not attacking current target, and return if it is. F4 and F5 would be the other two stances.

Druid: With this stance, the Ranger gets a boost to healing and condition damage, as well as a boost to defense, to compensate for lose of pet. The F4 and F5 will be the same as beastmaster. F2 and F3 would be two druidic based abilities:

• F2: Mark and Recall: You mark a location for teleportation, when you press the button again you teleport to your mark
• F3: Spiritual Attunement: Your summoned spirits gain in defense and their abilities trigger more often for the next X seconds

Skirmisher: With this stance, the Ranger gets a boost to power, critical strike chance, and a minor movement speed buff. F4 and F5 are the same as prior two. F2 and F3 are abilities

• F2: Camouflage: You stealth yourself for 3 seconds. This takes you out of combat.
• F3: Interrupting Strike: Your strike your enemy, interrupting whatever action they were taking and dazing them. If your weapon is ranged, this attack is ranged and the daze lasts a shorter amount of time.

Flytrap.8075:

xallever.1874:

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

To clear the air about pets, lets collate:

What’s negative about the pet:

• Offers no benefit to certain playstyles

I don’t see this as a negative or a positive. It will be a negative thing if it is an impediment to certain playstyles.

I don’t see the Mesmer shatter mechanic as negative if you decide to go for a phantasm-heavy build. You just simply don’t benefit it as much than if you had gone Shatter or Lockdown.

For instance, if you had gone the beastmaster route, and your pet dies too easily, makes no real threat before it’s dead, then it’s a hindrance. In which case, it will be a negative thing.

Maybe he meant something along the lines of pets having literally no value in large-scale WvW.

Aveneo.2068:

Any of the devs played WoW (up until WotLK)? Hunter pets in that game seemed to behave pretty decently and I loved playing a Beastmaster there. So what did Blizzard do that ANet can’t do as well? Numerous suggestions have already been provided, so a little indepth feedback on how you guys want to proceed would be highly appreciated.

From my perspective, the main 2 things to work on are:

• Ability to hit moving targets
• Resistance to AoE

The instant F2 is nice, but that was the easy 5 minute fix. Now we’d like to hear more about the actual changes to pet AI and reliability.

I’ve been wondering about that as well; that game is like ten years old now and they managed to make pets work.

I’m not familiar with programming, but I don’t see how an older game like WoW could manage something like that while GW2 can’t.

Well the reason that WoW pets work is because they take reduced AoE damage and have since forever, plus the way their game is built allows for squishier creatures that can take some hits because there is both little to no chance of them pulling aggro (unless you’re stupid) and because it has healers. That and WoW is much less mobile, so not being able to hit isn’t an issue at all.

nagymbear.5280:

xallever.1874:

As Allie didn’t want this CDI to be all about the permastow option (or turning it into an aspect), I’d just like to come up with a poll:

http://poll.pollcode.com/38561745

Obviously, a significant majority will be telling factor (not close to 50-50), but even without the percentage, if there are enough participants, I think the numbers also will show some weight.

The point of this is to lessen speculative statements for future discussions.

I hope everyone who has an opinion would take part in this short ‘yes’ or ‘no’ poll. I’d also post this in the Aspect thread.

Dev: You will not have 3 arms in this game. Please don’t talk about that on this thread so we can focus on other things instead.
Player: OK I made this poll on wanting 3 arms instead of 2. All go and vote!

That’s what the dev said but obviously people will continue bringing this up again and again from time to time.

The poll serves to:

• Provide a way to express your opinion without needlessly cluttering the thread
• Provide a data to back up people’s expressed arguments (vs counting on the total number of participating unique users who have expressed their opinions on this matter and manually tally it up)