Guild Wars 2

Brujeria.7536:

Any mesmer without PU / stealth centric has the same problem.

I will stop you on this one. I main a ranger in pve, so obviously i know every trait and skill a ranger can have, and the animations of those skills. But i never play it in any form of pvp (actually, i don’t go in wvw or pvp very often). This week end, i decided to go roaming a bit with a shatter mesmer in wvw, the usual build (4/4/0/0/6, full zerker, with S/F+GS, portal decoy blink and mass invisibility as my utilities). The only skill which could be better against a ranger than other professions would be iwarden. I haven’t lost to a single LB ranger. Sure, i haven’t killed all of them, some fled with GS, but in the end, i never lost.

You could say that i was simply better than them, but that’s not the case. I am a pretty bad player, and i know it. But i know how to counter decently a ranger. Going into stealth between rapid fire, and burst them down quickly was often a good choice, at least enought to force them to play defensively, going into the warden and sniping with GS was also useful. But also dodging through him/Blink behind him when he uses rapid fire, or paying a little bit attention to the pet that most people decide to ignore (if a wolf is going ro roar, you can prepare it with a stun breaker, for exemple). You can also LoS it, kitten , even grass sometimes block arrows, how could an arrow be stopped by grass?

Also, signet ranger are a joke, if you survive 15 seconds (which is pretty easy if you’re prepared for it, by the way), you know you will win the fight. Others specs like 6/0/2/6 won’t do as much damage, but can be more annoying in the long run, but that’s only my opinion.

Now, i won’t say there is no problem. Someone made a thread in which he said PBS needed a more obvious animation. I totally agree. Being stun for 1 second can be deadly if you are unprepared, if you have no stunbreakers, and no stab, and that ability to be able to maintain distance, even small distance, is really good on LB. But rapid fire is fine. Projectiles hould also always fail when they fly more than the intended distance, but that is more on the bug side (still a bug for me). Maybe Signet of the Wild needs a bit nerf, because it’s not on par with other signets on other professions, or other signets need a buff.

Than, how can i handle it even if i am a bad player? Because i know how ranger work. I haven’t said it, but during this roaming session, i got destroyed by other professions. Why did i lose? Because i have absolutely no idea how they are played, how long are the cooldowns, and the animation of each skill and i know that as long as i will remain ignorant about them, i will keep on losing against them. I’m sure most people complaining about LB rangers have never tried to play ranger seriously, and have no idea how it is to play it. Ignorance is not bliss in GW2.

Also, LB have nearly 0 mobility. You have stealth, and that’s it. Sure, GS or Sw have a good mobiliy, but if you switch weapon, you have to keep it for 10 seconds. So, no. You can’t pew pew, go into GS, get far from the enemy, and pew pew again. If the enemy is slower, he won’t follow you unless he’s dumb. If he’s faster, even if you go back to LB, you will be at close range.

Saying that LB AA is powerful made my day. Thanks. Close range AA is sooo powerful it’s not even fun, and we all know how long range AA was buffed like crazy with this patch. Someone mentioned pve… Sword AA deals more damage than LB AA at long range, in average. The only thing that change is that LB will provide 10 vulnerability, but you won’t share boons, won’t heal you allies, won’t cleave. At best, it is a good opener, and can be used when you can’t melee.

Stealth tracking is a good thing on channeling skills, and that’s coming from a mesmer. If i use my stealth skill as a panic button when i don’t know what to do, i should be punished for this. I don’t see a problem there. If i use it between channeling skills, i am not punished because i used my brain a little bit.

mexay.3902:

Reflects are not a proper defence, as their recharge times are typically 30 – 40s and few classes have access to them

Screw that little ArenaNet employee kitten who doesn’t let me block all the projectiles forevaaa!

So your solution to the rapid fire buff is to nerf it into the ground. Lovely.

DanSH.6143:

Avoiding Rapid Fire in 5 Easy Steps
3) dodge/ block/teleport/stealth/reflect/daze/stun/fear/knockback/knockdown/pull/apply retaliation/apply protection/apply burst to fold the ranger/use LoS/use evade skills.

As for all skills, but why should your skills make twice more damage faster and at a longer range than mine? Makes no sense.

Xillllix.3485:

DanSH.6143:

Avoiding Rapid Fire in 5 Easy Steps
3) dodge/ block/teleport/stealth/reflect/daze/stun/fear/knockback/knockdown/pull/apply retaliation/apply protection/apply burst to fold the ranger/use LoS/use evade skills.

As for all skills, but why should your skills make twice more damage faster and at a longer range than mine? Makes no sense.

Why have variety at all right? Let’s just give everyone pillows. Pillow Wars 2!

A lot of people are calling this out as a “l2p” issue and that you should just dodge the skill. Rapid fire has no telegraph that it’s coming. This is something you see with every other high reward skill. Pin Down is the perfect example. It has a wind-up and telegraph, it gives players the ability to dodge it. This helps balance the skill.

Effective dodging requires a telegraph

Imagine if eviscerate didn’t have a telegraph. That would be incredibly overpowered.

If you think this a l2p issue, you clearly don’t understand the game. You can not legitimately argue that a skill offering more damage than Kill Shot, having no telegraph, an 8s recharge (quicker than standard endurance regen and about a fifth of the average reflect time), 1200 – 1500 range and tracking, coupled with stealth and knockback is balanced.

High reward skills should ALWAYS offer high risk. That creates balance. I challenge anyone in this thread to tell me how this skill and weapon is balanced

Every example you provided is also a single direct damage attack as opposed to a 2.5 second channel. Perhaps the telegraph is you getting hit more than once in .5 seconds?

And again… I point the peanut gallery to exhibit A: Volley.

Necrotize.2974:

Just calling it as I see it and not inputting my own opinion about RF. This is all just generalized and can pretty much be applied to every class that got called OP( that’s not to say some things really weren’t OP or that things that were called OP really weren’t).

When class A is considered OP by almost everyone, players of Class A defend it and say l2p, then provide flimsy counters that work in an ideal situation.

Then, in the long term, When Class A gets nerfed, players of Class A that defended it either ditch the class completely or complain that it is now unplayable, and start calling classes B-H OP instead, and so the cycle continues.

Also, just a point I’d like to make with regards to all the flimsy counters to RF. Stealth does not counter RF, channeled skills do not lose their target when it enters stealth. At best, it just makes them wait until your stealth fades to cast RF.

But you know, when all else fails and logic is against whatever class you happen to be defending, L2P and L2Dodge are always valid arguments.

So..

Not only is there video evidence as to how you can beat a RF damage spec.
There is math on these forums that shows how and why its easier to both dodge and deal with.
There is evidence that shows other classes do the same damage or more up close ( but people are fine with being one shot in melee range?!)

There is also a list of counters to RF builds for almost every class.

If this was OP
ToL would have an over representation of them like they did when spirit rangers were Stupidly OP.

But guess what class was still underrepresented?

@Atherakhia (I tried quoting but it would be too long a post.)

What are you talking about? I was talking about the balance of a ranger’s power build particularly as it relates to the changes to RF. Not about usefulness in a Zerg. A Mesmer could be totally underpowered and suck in any kind of pvp or 1v1 setting, but it’s extremely useful to a Zerg due to portaling and stealthing. I have seen a massive influx of rangers roaming and in Tpvp. I cannot speak for zerging, but that’s a completely separate issue.

As far as comparing RF to volley, that is not a valid comparison. We are talking about an entirely different weapon with different skills and, oh by the way, 900 range. People aren’t upset because of the damage they are recieving. When I get bursted by a fresh air Ele, I don’t mind. Why? Because I know that the enemy knew exactly what they were doing and that I got outplayed. Being bursted from stealth at 1500 range is not being outplayed. Sure, I can dodge but that is not counterplay. I could dodge a pve boss who one shots me, but that doesn’t mean that I have any kind of valid counter play. If it did we might as well just give everyone a button that one shots because hey, dodging is counter play right? Obviously this is ridiculous.

What I’m saying is that we need some way to fight this, or it needs to be toned down. Reflects are great, but when the ranger can keep firing an 8k burst every 10 seconds, your reflect(s) run(s) out fast. Instead of adding some new boon or condition, let’s just tone the ranger down a bit. I’m not suggesting any insane nerf, just give them a higher cool down and a tell. That’s what every other class has. I don’t see why ranger should be any different. Especially when they accomplish their burst from 1500 range…

MightyMicah.7451:

What are you talking about? I was talking about the balance of a ranger’s power build particularly as it relates to the changes to RF. Not about usefulness in a Zerg. A Mesmer could be totally underpowered and suck in any kind of pvp or 1v1 setting, but it’s extremely useful to a Zerg due to poraling and stealthing. I have seen a massive influx of rangers roaming and in Tpvp. I cannot speak for zerging, but that’s a completely separate issue.

I haven’t seen a successful roaming ranger since the patch. Because being on a thief,engie, or mesmer is still better.
But
lets still keep pretending that mesmer is bad 1 v 1.

Yea…..
What game are you playing again?

As far as comparing RF to volley, that is not a valid comparison. We are talking about an entirely different weapon with different skills and, oh by the way, 900 range. People aren’t upset because of the damage they are recieving. When I get bursted by a fresh air Ele, I don’t mind. Why? Because I know that the enemy knew exactly what they were doing and that I got outplayed. Being bursted from stealth at 1500 range is not being outplayed. Sure, I can dodge but that is not counterplay. I could dodge a pve boss who one shots me, but that doesn’t mean that I have any kind of valid counter play. If it did we might as well just give everyone a button that one shots because hey, dodging is counter play right? Obviously this is ridiculous.

What do you mean you have no counterplay?

So you dodged a burst. and you stand there?

You dont know how to get into melee range of the ranger?
Are you playing that new class with no gap closers?
Are you playing the new class with no type of reflect skill?
Are you playing that new condition class with no conditions?

What are you playing where you have no type of counter to a power ranger?

What I’m saying is that we need some way to fight this, or it needs to be toned down. Reflects are great, but when the ranger can keep firing an 8k burst every 10 seconds, your reflects run out fast. Instead of adding some new boon or condition, let’s just tone the ranger down a bit. I’m not suggesting any insane nerf, just give them a higher cool down and a tell. That’s what every other class has. I don’t see why ranger should be any different. Especially when they accomplish their burst from 1500 range…

In a fight with a ranger. The only way you are going to get pew pewd down is if you allow them to kill you from range and you do nothing.

This is why people have been screaming L2P.

Solandri.9640:

PhantomClutch.7825:

Just so I understand.

Everyone defending agrees its ok to do 20k+ damage

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

An exotic longbow has 1000 average base damage.
Rapid Fire’s cumulative skill coefficient is 3.75.
Assume the target’s armor is 1800.
Assume Steady Focus (10% extra damage when endurance full).
Assume Eagle Eye (5% extra damage for longbow). Means no Spotter.
Assume Hunter’s tactics (10% extra damage when flanking).
Assume Peak Strength (10% extra damage when hp over 90%).
Assume Scholar runes (10% extra damage when hp over 90%).
Assume Sigil of Force (5% extra damage).
Assume Sigil of Bloodlust (250 extra power).
Assume 10% vulnerability from Opening Strike (5% + avg 5% from RF)

All those assumptions mandate a 45500 build. Outfitting it with exotic berserker’s armor and ascended berserker’s trinkets yields:
2355 power
51% crit chance
222% crit damage

1000 (2355+250) *3.75 *(1+0.51(2.22-1)) *(1+.1+.1+.1+.05+.05) *1.1 / 1800 = 13,558 damage

Methinks 20k damage from RF is a teensy bit of an exaggeration. I left out food and sharpening stone, but I think it’s pretty clear damage is nowhere near 20k. Maybe if someone else were giving you 25 stacks of might, fury, warrior banners, you might be able to hit 20k. But then you’re not facing a solo ranger, you’re facing a team who is working together to gank you.

to someone in 1.25s (if haste works how I believe it does) just because someone didn’t evade?

No, quickness does not work like that. It used to speed up attacks 100% (halved their time). But that got nerfed down to 50% last year (ranger DPS was hardest hit by that nerf, and they got the least compensation because some of their quickness didn’t get duration extensions).

2.5s becomes 2.5/1.5 = 1.67 sec.

People posting must be bad, it’s rangers did not get a 10% dps buff, they got alot more than 10%. Shortening LB2 by 50% means a straight up 50% dps increase, because you take less time to go through it.

RF wasn’t shorted by 50%. It went from 4 and a half to 2.5s. It was shortened by 44%.

And bear in mind that prior to this change, RF used to do just 93% the DPS of longbow’s autoattack.

Ranger longbow autoattack @ max range is .9/1 = 0.9 coeff/sec
Rapid Fire is 3.75/2.5 = 1.5 coeff/sec
Ratio = 1.67

Warrior GS autoattack is (.77+.7+.9)/2.5 = 0.948 coeff/sec
100 blades is 5.5/3.5 = 1.57 coeff/sec
Ratio = 1.66

Warrior rifle autoattack is .4/.96 = .417 coeff/sec
Volley is 3.0/2.5 = 1.2 coeff/sec
Ratio = 2.88

You really think RF’s extra DPS is out of line for a burst skill?

Also you’re forgetting the free grandmaster trait given to every range using signets, you don’t even need to trait for it, all signets now affect you too.

You mean the change that made signets work for rangers exactly like they’ve always worked for every profession except ranger? You’re trying to say that rangers deserved to have inferior signets compared to every other profession, and so bringing them up to par to everyone else is somehow doing rangers a favor?

Forestgreen.7981:

Also I said 50% damage increase on LB 2 skill specifically, not for the long bow in general. Note rangers got a straight up BUFF, and from what I saw no nerfs on a kitten thing to level the playing field.

RF does exactly the same damage as it did before. It’s just been compressed from 4.5 sec to 2.5 sec. That is, it’s DPS was increased 44%. It’s damage is the same as before.

As a weapon, if you assume longbow autoattack fills in the gaps between RF and Barrage whenever their cooldowns are up, then:

Before:
4.8 coeff / 2.75 sec every 30 sec (Barrage)
3.75 coeff / 4.5 sec every 10 sec (Rapid Fire)
0.9 coeff / 1 sec (autoattack)
= (4.8 + 3.75*3 + .9*13.75) = 28.425 coeff / 30 sec

After:
4.8 coeff / 2.25 sec every 30 sec
3.75 coeff / 2.5 sec every 10 sec
0.9 coeff / 1 sec
= (4.8 + 3.75*3 +.9*19.75) = 33.825 coeff/30 sec

33.825 / 28.425 = 1.19 = 19% damage buff for longbow

So basically, to even get 13-15k burst a ranger has to dedicate his entire build and utilities to one burst every 48 seconds.
AND
Hope that who ever this is happening to is complete trash.

I guess people want there free kills back?

Need a vid ? There is one of a person playing a mesmer explaining how to fight a RF too.
Because apparently learning how to play effectively is too hard for people

Brujeria.7536:

sminkiottone.6972:

Brujeria.7536:

but once they add another game more, or for general wvw roaming these balance is toxic and vastly overpowered.

If LB ranger are OP what about perplexity engineer, PU mesmer, perplexity thief, fearmancer and all those condi bunker specs ?

I sometimes play a fearmance with signet of spike in 1v1 and people die in few seconds, should we nerf necro ? I mean, it has best Hp in game, many sources of fear, death shroud, it can cast more condition than most classes can clean, there’s no counterplay, it’s OP.

These builds are strong as well, but still they have counter play. EVERY class has access to both stunbreaks and condition clears. There is no counterplay if you cant even REACH your enemy, WHILE hes doing stupidly high damage. The range indicated on Longbow traited is 1500, but its actually much more, this combined with the high speed and velocity of the shots makes it very reliable. Sure you can dodge, but so can the ranger dodge any CC or Gapcloser you aim at them, and even if you keep your dodges for the rapid fire, the AA damage alone is enough to wither you down until the next Rapid Fire is up, all while you have a pet next to you fearing rooting and knocking you down while even doing damage on top.

/facepalm

the only thing I can say to you is L2P, but start with something easy like PvE and stay away from from Ranger NPC because they have LB and LB is soo OP :O

mexay.3902:

1) Add a 1s Pre-cast
2) Add a telegraph similar to Pin Down
3) Reduce range by 300 – 600 units
4) Increase recharge by 2 seconds
5) Remove vulnerability

There. Rapid Fire fixed.

My Isaiah sense are tingling O.o

Only profession I have troubles with against this rein of power rangers is thief because they can track me so easily. Every other profession I’m either too beefy to worry or have sufficient methods to block/reflect on top of my excessive evades that ignore most of their sustained damage.

Rapid Fire has a sound cue (similar to mesmer shatters) that plays before you take any damage, which gives even more time to react to it the farther the distance is from the player using the skill. The animation is also extremely obvious, and due to the nature of projectiles, you can here both the sound cue and see the animation to be able to react and dodge.

The only time neither factor matters is just about point blank range, and at that point, you can just dodge or close the gap through the player using Rapid Fire and break the channeling animation like with any other channeled skill in the game.

Given that most players haven’t played enough against power rangers due to the fact that they were never effective (and still aren’t top tier effective) until now, it is forgivable that people don’t have the practice to play correctly against the build.

BUT, that does not excuse the knee jerk reaction of seeing it, not understanding any of the nuances of the skill (that have always existed), and then saying it should be nerfed.

The build itself versus other skills in the game is actually extremely balanced for skill, and it’s effectiveness is literally only determined by player input and opponent output. Any player who doesn’t have the (imo minimal) output abilities to outplay the build presents a biased opinion because they want the game to be balanced for their skill level as opposed to how it is now (catering to high end balance) and should be ignored (like the complaints that have cropped up since the patch dropped).

DanSH.6143:

Avoiding Rapid Fire in 5 Easy Steps

1) l2p
2) use your brain
3) dodge/ block/teleport/stealth/reflect/daze/stun/fear/knockback/knockdown/pull/apply retaliation/apply protection/apply burst to fold the ranger/use LoS/use evade skills.
4) Lol.
5) Lel.

If step 3 doesn’t work for you, repeat steps 1-2.
There, fixed.

Its funny how this was the argument against every other nerf before this…

I’d be lying if I said i wasnt a bit spiteful, but I’m amused to see the calls for nerfs turned on a class so quickly, with the supporters of the current mechanic state using the same arguments that didn’t work to preserve the previously “op” mechanics.

the wheel turns.

If RF is used in the open, like randomly in WvW I guess I could see a problem with it maybe.

But in sPvP I really don’t see RF being that big of a deal at all, like seriously.

The LoS that many of the nodes have is more than enough to avoid most of the RF burst. I think maybe the damage is leaning on the too high end I guess. But I don’t find it much of a problem at all.

Looking at the suggestions:

1) Add a 1s Pre-cast
2) Add a telegraph similar to Pin Down
3) Reduce range by 300 – 600 units
4) Increase recharge by 2 seconds
5) Remove vulnerability

I’d suggest that only 2 and 4 are needed.

A telegraph, or a casting time would be good enough. as long as we have about 1/2 a second to react to the incoming rapid fire, that would allow for some counterplay, as opposed to a completely REACTIONARY response which we have now, being reflect or dodge.

Hamster.4861:

Looking at the suggestions:

1) Add a 1s Pre-cast
2) Add a telegraph similar to Pin Down
3) Reduce range by 300 – 600 units
4) Increase recharge by 2 seconds
5) Remove vulnerability

I’d suggest that only 2 and 4 are needed.

A telegraph, or a casting time would be good enough. as long as we have about 1/2 a second to react to the incoming rapid fire, that would allow for some counterplay, as opposed to a completely REACTIONARY response which we have now, being reflect or dodge.

People would still complain about it, because “OMG 1500 RANGE EVEN IF IT HAS A TELL SIGN ITS 562% IMPOSSIBLE TO DODGE AND REFLECTS HAVE 200s COOLDOWNS AND THEN HE JUST STEALTH AND POINT BLANK SHOT ME BACK TO THE MOON!”

Something to that effect I presume…

OP: “Dear friends. I am a glass thief/warrior. Please nerf rapid fire so I still hard counter bow rangers. Play styles that are good against mine should not be allowed.”

warriorjrd.8695:

Hamster.4861:

Looking at the suggestions:

1) Add a 1s Pre-cast
2) Add a telegraph similar to Pin Down
3) Reduce range by 300 – 600 units
4) Increase recharge by 2 seconds
5) Remove vulnerability

I’d suggest that only 2 and 4 are needed.

A telegraph, or a casting time would be good enough. as long as we have about 1/2 a second to react to the incoming rapid fire, that would allow for some counterplay, as opposed to a completely REACTIONARY response which we have now, being reflect or dodge.

People would still complain about it, because “OMG 1500 RANGE EVEN IF IT HAS A TELL SIGN ITS 562% IMPOSSIBLE TO DODGE AND REFLECTS HAVE 200s COOLDOWNS AND THEN HE JUST STEALTH AND POINT BLANK SHOT ME BACK TO THE MOON!”

Something to that effect I presume…

whatcha gonna do tho. noobs gonna cry.

at the moment though, all the counterplay to rapidfire is reactionary, and isnt actually countering it.

-50% movement speed, or

movement will cancel while channeling.

sminkiottone.6972:

Brujeria.7536:

sminkiottone.6972:

Brujeria.7536:

but once they add another game more, or for general wvw roaming these balance is toxic and vastly overpowered.

If LB ranger are OP what about perplexity engineer, PU mesmer, perplexity thief, fearmancer and all those condi bunker specs ?

I sometimes play a fearmance with signet of spike in 1v1 and people die in few seconds, should we nerf necro ? I mean, it has best Hp in game, many sources of fear, death shroud, it can cast more condition than most classes can clean, there’s no counterplay, it’s OP.

These builds are strong as well, but still they have counter play. EVERY class has access to both stunbreaks and condition clears. There is no counterplay if you cant even REACH your enemy, WHILE hes doing stupidly high damage. The range indicated on Longbow traited is 1500, but its actually much more, this combined with the high speed and velocity of the shots makes it very reliable. Sure you can dodge, but so can the ranger dodge any CC or Gapcloser you aim at them, and even if you keep your dodges for the rapid fire, the AA damage alone is enough to wither you down until the next Rapid Fire is up, all while you have a pet next to you fearing rooting and knocking you down while even doing damage on top.

/facepalm

the only thing I can say to you is L2P, but start with something easy like PvE and stay away from from Ranger NPC because they have LB and LB is soo OP :O

It’s responses like this that make me want to pull my hair out. You literally addressed nothing. All you did is make fun of the guy who brought up very valid points. Do you believe Power Ranger is fine? Then show us why. When I bring up several things that should be addressed, such as adding a tell, bringing a lower cool down etc. and then explain why such changes should be implemented, someone making fun of me just proves my point. If you have nothing valid to bring up, then just keep quiet. “L2p” is not valid evidence for anything except perhaps that you’re under the age of 13.

MightyMicah.7451:

sminkiottone.6972:

Brujeria.7536:

sminkiottone.6972:

Brujeria.7536:

but once they add another game more, or for general wvw roaming these balance is toxic and vastly overpowered.

If LB ranger are OP what about perplexity engineer, PU mesmer, perplexity thief, fearmancer and all those condi bunker specs ?

I sometimes play a fearmance with signet of spike in 1v1 and people die in few seconds, should we nerf necro ? I mean, it has best Hp in game, many sources of fear, death shroud, it can cast more condition than most classes can clean, there’s no counterplay, it’s OP.

These builds are strong as well, but still they have counter play. EVERY class has access to both stunbreaks and condition clears. There is no counterplay if you cant even REACH your enemy, WHILE hes doing stupidly high damage. The range indicated on Longbow traited is 1500, but its actually much more, this combined with the high speed and velocity of the shots makes it very reliable. Sure you can dodge, but so can the ranger dodge any CC or Gapcloser you aim at them, and even if you keep your dodges for the rapid fire, the AA damage alone is enough to wither you down until the next Rapid Fire is up, all while you have a pet next to you fearing rooting and knocking you down while even doing damage on top.

/facepalm

the only thing I can say to you is L2P, but start with something easy like PvE and stay away from from Ranger NPC because they have LB and LB is soo OP :O

It’s responses like this that make me want to pull my hair out. You literally addressed nothing. All you did is make fun of the guy who brought up very valid points. Do you believe Power Ranger is fine? Then show us why. When I bring up several things that should be addressed, such as adding a tell, bringing a lower cool down etc. and then explain why such changes should be implemented, someone making fun of me just proves my point. If you have nothing valid to bring up, then just keep quiet. “L2p” is not valid evidence for anything except perhaps that you’re under the age of 13.

About the ‘closing issue’, it’s not arena play. Get somewhere else, try to get him to chase you around a tight corner.

If a longbow ranger catches them at max range and hammers them, most people aren’t going to be able to turn that around (barring class interactions), but you don’t have to win every fight to win the game.

Ironically most even remotely good LB rangers know that well. If the situation is bad (a warrior or thief is right on top of you), try to disengage and circle around. A lot of the time the ranger wont’ get away, but thems the breaks.

~~~

If anything it adds something, positional and initiative advantage matter a lot more than they did 3 weeks ago. This is a good thing.

Atherakhia.4086:

We already know the damage isn’t the problem because Volley does the same damage and have similar vulnerability effectiveness despite the attacks being split.

Wait what?

Rapid Fire does a good 20% more damage than Volley. It’s not at all a trivial difference when you also have a pet beating on and CCing you..

Pull that damage off, and tweak Signet of Stone a little bit (6s forces you to hard disengage, a shorter duration with a shorter cooldown to compensate would work better), and you’re probably 90% of the way there.

The rifle has one extra skill which can be traited many times over. Furthermore a Rifle gets to full effectiveness with a single adept major trait. That is CD reduction and piercing. Furthermore Rifle is on a melee first class that has the highest innate durability of all classes.

So you are saying that a staple weapon traited with 5 major traits should match a brawlers weapon pound for point is hilarious.

The only argument that can be made is that RF and Volley have a similar function as they are both similar in channel length and track into stealth.

Also, sword/dagger thief is the brawler build for the thief. D/P or D/D has the same function as the glass ranger catch someone by surprise when they are fighting someone else and nuke them. It applies both for PvP and WvW. Now that the Ranger can actually pose a threat if they see you first is suddenly OH SO BROKEN. No more free loot bags ey??

mexay.3902:

A lot of people are calling this out as a “l2p” issue and that you should just dodge the skill. Rapid fire has no telegraph that it’s coming. This is something you see with every other high reward skill. Pin Down is the perfect example. It has a wind-up and telegraph, it gives players the ability to dodge it. This helps balance the skill.

Effective dodging requires a telegraph

Imagine if eviscerate didn’t have a telegraph. That would be incredibly overpowered.

If you think this a l2p issue, you clearly don’t understand the game. You can not legitimately argue that a skill offering more damage than Kill Shot, having no telegraph, an 8s recharge (quicker than standard endurance regen and about a fifth of the average reflect time), 1200 – 1500 range and tracking, coupled with stealth and knockback is balanced.

High reward skills should ALWAYS offer high risk. That creates balance. I challenge anyone in this thread to tell me how this skill and weapon is balanced

You mean you don’t keep a twitchy finger ready to use the dodge button when need be? Hell, not even a twitchy finger…dodge is linked to V, which is right below F, which is where your index finger should always sit on the left side of the keyboard. Your pinky up to index fingers should always be at the position of A S D F, that’s standard location for fingers on a keyboard.

Are you telling me that you can’t just immediately hit V when you see something? Because it takes me half a second to go to V from F. I immediately hit the dodge key the second I see 2+ arrows come my way, how hard is that to do?

Also, how does this have no risk? If you run behind anything Line of Sight will prevent it from hitting you. If you dodge, you dodge 2-3 arrows of it (it only shoots 10). If you use a block move (other than Aegis) you’ll block almost all the arrows. If you use weakness, all the arrows will do crap damage. If you use confusion, the Ranger will take massive damage from the arrows. If you use reflect, the Ranger will kill themselves because they won’t be able to stop their own arrows. If you interrupt them in any way, you’ve stopped it. If you use anything that blocks projectiles (Smokescreen on Thief for an example), you’ve blocked the move.

Here’s all the ways every class can deal with RF (stopping, blocking, reflecting, dodging), using utility skills alone.

Warrior: Endure Pain
Guardian: Wall of Reflection, Sanctuary, Bane Signet (active)
Engineer: Elixir S, Tool Kit’s Gear Shield
Ranger: Signet of Stone, Protect Me, Lightning Reflexes
Thief: Smokescreen, Scorpion Wire, Shadowstep (move behind them or some cover), Roll for Initiative
Elementalist: Arcane Shield, Lightning Flash (behind them or some cover), Mist Form
Mesmer: Feedback, Blink (behind them or some cover), Mantra of Distraction, Signet of Domination (active)
Necromancer: Corrupt Boon (if they have stability, it’ll fear them), Signet of Spite (active, though this is more for making them immediately try to back off due to no condition removal), Spectral Wall, Well of Darkness

That’s just the utilities alone, all of that can be used to deal with RF. If we add the weapon skills and class mechanics into the mix, it gets far bigger. All of the moves that deal with it are weaknesses and counters to RF.

Also, if the Ranger is doing godly damage with RF, it means they have no defense whatsoever. Survive RF, and then destroy the Ranger. If they have Protect Me and Signet of Stone, oh well, they bought themselves barely 6 seconds to survive. If RF comes back up, deal with it again and take them out, because that build cannot deal with somebody stopping all that power twice in a row.

Quick question here, but how is Spectral Wall or Signet of Spite supposed to help? Spectral Wall does nothing about projectiles and by the time you can land a Signet of Spite, you’ve already taken at least 8/10 shots. I know people keep talking like it’s an auto-win skill, but it is still a 3/4 second cast.

Learning to play in 5 easy steps:

1-Dodge roll to evade
2-Use healing skills
3-Use defensive cooldowns
4-learn to close the gap with ranged classes
5-Dodge roll to evade

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Quick question here, but how is Spectral Wall or Signet of Spite supposed to help? Spectral Wall does nothing about projectiles and by the time you can land a Signet of Spite, you’ve already taken at least 8/10 shots. I know people keep talking like it’s an auto-win skill, but it is still a 3/4 second cast.

Throw Spectral Wall on top of the Ranger and they’re insta-feared, thus stopping the move. Signet of Spite I really suggest just because you can throw it on the Ranger and then instantly go into Death Shroud to soak up the rest of the hits.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Quick question here, but how is Spectral Wall or Signet of Spite supposed to help? Spectral Wall does nothing about projectiles and by the time you can land a Signet of Spite, you’ve already taken at least 8/10 shots. I know people keep talking like it’s an auto-win skill, but it is still a 3/4 second cast.

Throw Spectral Wall on top of the Ranger and they’re insta-feared, thus stopping the move. Signet of Spite I really suggest just because you can throw it on the Ranger and then instantly go into Death Shroud to soak up the rest of the hits.

Sometimes Spectral Wall will fear if you drop it on them. It’s rather unreliable on that front.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Warrior: Endure Pain
Guardian: Wall of Reflection, Sanctuary, Bane Signet (active)
Engineer: Elixir S, Tool Kit’s Gear Shield
Ranger: Signet of Stone, Protect Me, Lightning Reflexes
Thief: Smokescreen, Scorpion Wire, Shadowstep (move behind them or some cover), Roll for Initiative
Elementalist: Arcane Shield, Lightning Flash (behind them or some cover), Mist Form
Mesmer: Feedback, Blink (behind them or some cover), Mantra of Distraction, Signet of Domination (active)
Necromancer: Corrupt Boon (if they have stability, it’ll fear them), Signet of Spite (active, though this is more for making them immediately try to back off due to no condition removal), Spectral Wall, Well of Darkness

That’s just the utilities alone, all of that can be used to deal with RF. If we add the weapon skills and class mechanics into the mix, it gets far bigger. All of the moves that deal with it are weaknesses and counters to RF.

Also, if the Ranger is doing godly damage with RF, it means they have no defense whatsoever. Survive RF, and then destroy the Ranger. If they have Protect Me and Signet of Stone, oh well, they bought themselves barely 6 seconds to survive. If RF comes back up, deal with it again and take them out, because that build cannot deal with somebody stopping all that power twice in a row.

Do you even understand how cool downs work?

Endure Pain has a 60s Cool-down. Most block skills have a 30+s cooldown. You’re also wrong in that all block skills other than Aegis block more than 1 hit. This is actually the exception to the rule. Most blocks will only block a single hit.

Sanctuary has a TWO MINUTE CD. Wall of Reflection and Bane Signet both have 40s CDs.

Blink and Lightning Flash don’t work because they don’t cause you to drop target and if you’re still in FoV the skill just tracks to your new position.

Corrupt Boon and Signet of Spite… I don’t even know where to begin with this.

Your “counters” don’t work because the one time I can stop the 5 – 20k damage from rapid fire with Endure Pain (or hopefully I’m not stupid enough to try with Sanctuary), I’m going to get hit another 5 times. Between that I’m receiving Auto-attacks, PBSs and Barrages.

High cool-down skills are not counter play to this.
Dodging without an adequate telegraph/wind-up is not adequate counter play. *
*All high reward skills should offer effective counter play and risk

When fighting a burst vs burst build the fight is usually over in one rotation, unless you are fighting a thief or a mesmer. So CD are not really an issue.

For example, the Medi guardian will have sword2, Justice blind, Sword3 blind/port, Judges intervention port, shelter, aegis, f3 aegis, etc… thus its a direct counter to LB ranger.

Wall of reflection is something you would use in group play. People fail to ralise that combat is not about simple counters, it is about flow. There are also plenty of direct and asymmetric counters in the game. Sometimes you can outsustain damage bursts. Having protection on is sometimes enough to eat a full burst and just heal up. What do you think guardians have been doing as a mid point bunker these last 2 years. They know when to avoid and when to just take it for the team.

I am prompted to write a topic on build roles.

mexay.3902:

Your “counters” don’t work because the one time I can stop the 5 – 20k damage from rapid fire with Endure Pain (or hopefully I’m not stupid enough to try with Sanctuary), I’m going to get hit another 5 times. Between that I’m receiving Auto-attacks, PBSs and Barrages.

High cool-down skills are not counter play to this.

Well if you’re a warrior/guardian who has to stay on point on pvp, I think the ranger buffs were introduced specifically against your role. To apply continued damage from long range. Ranger already had pretty good long range single target sustained power damage. What it didn’t have is burst. Because RF was such a long cast it was a dps loss compared to long range shot (auto attack). Optimal play was for a longbow ranger to deal damage via autoattack, and it still is IMO as RF is there for burst.

mexay.3902:

*Dodging without an adequate telegraph/wind-up is not adequate counter play. *

Either you (or your team) have to deal with the damage, or the range. You might not have played ranger in wvw a lot and don’t know much obstructed you can get on a LB ranger. I was fighting in Arah camp with one npc, noone in sight, and I got obstructed. This was between the ledge and the supplies where the npcs usually stand. There is not even grass there, so I have no clue what caused the obstructed, but it did happen. Line of sight the ranger, and he will be useless. Close the gap and he will need to stop pew-pewing. If you’re choosen prof can’t do it, it might be intentional, just like longbow rangers can’t deal with all other profs.

mexay.3902:

All high reward skills should offer effective counter play and risk

Counter play is already there. Retaliation, protection, vulnerability, confusion, blocks, evades, in case of autoattack or pbs blind or aegis, for the knockback stability, in case of all longbow skill interrupt as well. None of them are instant except hunter’s shot, but even that needs to hit in order to grant stealth. And everyone can use line of sight, dodges, body block from others (since most rangers will run eagle eye instead of piercing arrows) to negate some or all of the damage.
And risk is there too, because you ARE vulnerable to everything while you deal high damage. Just like shatter mesmers are squshy, or zerker thieves are squishy.

mexay.3902:

1) Add a 1s Pre-cast
2) Add a telegraph similar to Pin Down
3) Reduce range by 300 – 600 units
4) Increase recharge by 2 seconds
5) Remove vulnerability

There. Rapid Fire fixed.

It’s now easily dodgeable, requires some cost to the ranger, has the same recharge as a single dodge and doesn’t also stack vulnerability. It retains the same damage output and cast time and can still be used to snipe targets. Overall functionality is exactly the same.

And before the Rapid Fire Defence Force comes in with the arguments only Hotjoin Heroes would use:

Reflects are not a proper defence, as their recharge times are typically 30 – 40s and few classes have access to them
Dodging skills like Rapid Fire requires an actual telegraph
Volley does not do the same or more damage
Kill shot does not do the same or more damage
1500 Range does not allow for gap closing
Stability is not a valid counter to PBS given the recharge time
A skill with this much damage requires some kind of cost to use

So, any objections? As far as I’m concerned these changes would fix the weapon and make it reasonably balanced.

“Its now easily dodgeable.” Just what this game desperately needs, more easy to dodge and simple skills. Pretty soon gw2 will ready to receive its “Suitable for ages 6 and up.” sticker.

The fact you list perfectly acceptable arguments as hotjoin fodder only shows your arguing the person, not their statement. To list it against other skills blindly only shows your being stubborn with straight refusals rather than rebuttals. A PvT ranger using all these things will not strike any where like a berserker or assassin..yet you use generic statements that each in their practicality have dramatic differences.

So yeah, from a reasonable point of view, your idea’s aren’t worth considering because you never founded them properly and use cheap low brow defense to try and give the illusion that it is justified.

I don’t even main a ranger, or have particular love for them. Their longbow glass attack is predictable as hell and upset numerous ways from;
1) good terrain positioning.
2) upsetting their pet AI
3)blocks, reflects, dodges, interrupts, dazes, knock downs, immunity, protective boons, blinds, chill,retaliation,confusion…the list goes on. If this list alone ain’t enough, then this is nothing more than a my sweet 16 year old complaining her diamond watch doesn’t have enough diamonds. Let’s not mention all ranger bow attacks cancel if you move behind or beside them. They have the lowest peripheral hit window. I ‘m still wondering why anyone would even take distance over spotter to achieve this 1500 unit you mention..98% of the time you’ll always be within 1200 unit range. It is a skill that promises much, but in reality offers very little. Which makes me believe your judging ranger from one narrow mode of game play rather than overall from lvl 50 fractals, dungeons, wvw, hotjoin; tpvp, pve. Remember a balance change affects all game modes, not just the mode you are currently grumpy with them in.

It shoots through walls

MarauderShields.6830:

Carighan.6758:

Rapid Fire is just a typical high risk high reward skill. One reflect on someone even standing nearby, and that ranger is dead.

That’s simply utter BS. I had a lot of fun with RF lately and people constantly try to reflect it. One button (store weapon) or one dodge, if you already fired a couple of arrows and don’t want to eat them, is enough. You have to be afk to die by your own RF. I do think Op went overboard with his suggestions but do not try to fool people by claiming RF is high risk when it is obviously not. I never downed fleeing people so easily with backstabs.

This. Reflects can’t be used as often as Rapid Fire. If you are a Ranger (no different than Warrior playing Rifle), keep your stow weapon handy or dodge your own attack to cancel and stop your repeat attack skill (or Kill Shot).

Really short cooldown (traited) burst suddenly doesn’t become burst anymore and becomes standard DPS output (i.e spam). Good luck trying to avoid the spam.

You know what’s funny though, players claiming it’s just Ranger Longbow that is the problem. So you avoid and play perfectly the Longbow Rapid Fire and reflect/dodge and use your endurance to close to the Ranger for you to actually attack back (closer than 1500 range). Congrats, you’ve passed the n00b/no lag challenge. Now Ranger swaps to melee weapon and either evades your damage while hurting you in return (aka Evasion Thief) or runs away/evades your damage to restart long-range Ranger advantage again or hurts you with even more burst damage melee skills from GS or offhand Axe (all with pet doing its control or damage). It’s so lol

Artaz.3819:

MarauderShields.6830:

Carighan.6758:

Rapid Fire is just a typical high risk high reward skill. One reflect on someone even standing nearby, and that ranger is dead.

That’s simply utter BS. I had a lot of fun with RF lately and people constantly try to reflect it. One button (store weapon) or one dodge, if you already fired a couple of arrows and don’t want to eat them, is enough. You have to be afk to die by your own RF. I do think Op went overboard with his suggestions but do not try to fool people by claiming RF is high risk when it is obviously not. I never downed fleeing people so easily with backstabs.

This. Reflects can’t be used as often as Rapid Fire. If you are a Ranger (no different than Warrior playing Rifle), keep your stow weapon handy or dodge your own attack to cancel and stop your repeat attack skill (or Kill Shot).

Really short cooldown (traited) burst suddenly doesn’t become burst anymore and becomes standard DPS output (i.e spam). Good luck trying to avoid the spam.

You know what’s funny though, players claiming it’s just Ranger Longbow that is the problem. So you avoid and play perfectly the Longbow Rapid Fire and reflect/dodge and use your endurance to close to the Ranger for you to actually attack back (closer than 1500 range). Congrats, you’ve passed the n00b/no lag challenge. Now Ranger swaps to melee weapon and either evades your damage while hurting you in return (aka Evasion Thief) or runs away/evades your damage to restart long-range Ranger advantage again or hurts you with even more burst damage melee skills from GS or offhand Axe (all with pet doing its control or damage). It’s so lol

Nevermind that 1 reflect and hte glass ranger is dead.

The argument is essentially coming down to ’THere’s an attack I don’t like because I don’t have a 100% counter to it!’

Welcome to matchups, maybe you should pick your fights instead of yelling blood for the blood god! and going straight at all opponents expecting to win.

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

I think I’ve hit on the real issue here. It’s not OP, it’s irritating. You’re in the middle of a fight, and you get gobsmacked by a machinegun ranger, of course that’s annoying and gonna get people up in arms.

The flip side is it does a great thing in livening up actual gameplay. Having someone able to pass in and quickly smack down that bunker that’s been holding that point is going to shake up tactics some.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Valid arguments like learning to adapt? Ranger LB is really only effective at long ranges, as soon as you get close, they won’t deal as much damage first off, and LB becomes a lot harder to use. If you can gap close a LB ranger and get close and personal, considering glassy LB rangers generally have no defense, you will most likely win that fight.

Tips against RF:

-LoS, its all around
-defensive cooldowns. Even if they have a longer cooldown than rf, sometimes it’s all you need to avoid hteir burst→turn around and smite them. reflects go a long way.
-Gap closer, teleports, leap, etc.
-awareness that you are being sniped. Sure rf is quick but the arrow animation is incredibly obvious once its entered your screen, again use LoS to lure them out or waste their time sitting on that rock doing nothing.
-practice…

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Was RF OP before patch? I am really curious. Because I don’t think it was. It had the same cooldown, could deal the same amount of damage from the same range. Do you know what it was? A waste of time. It was a dps loss compared to autoattack, that’s what it was. The traitline most ranger trait into when using LB screams of burst, but ranger had none aside from maul. LB RF fits the traitline, it fits the profession and it fits Anets (latest) vision of the ranger. It should be the best ranged single target dps class, and it seems it is. What it doesn’t fit is people in the current pvp meta. I fought against LB ranger in pvp who actually took part in a 3v3 instead of sitting on a ledge. He wasn’t useless, but he could be dealt with. So no, RF is not just AFK brainded gameplay. People spamming it make it seem so. Also if you really think LB zerker ranger is afk brainded play, then go ahead and play it in a pvp tournament. I know its beyond your level because it doesn’t require skill, but please, indulge me and try it out in a competitive match where people are organized, and know what they are doing. Seriously, try it. If it really is that powerful, it will have its 15 mintues of fame even if you shout and cry all day. I don’t think it will however.

nagymbear.5280:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Was RF OP before patch? I am really curious. Because I don’t think it was. It had the same cooldown, could deal the same amount of damage from the same range. Do you know what it was? A waste of time. It was a dps loss compared to autoattack, that’s what it was. The traitline most ranger trait into when using LB screams of burst, but ranger had none aside from maul. LB RF fits the traitline, it fits the profession and it fits Anets (latest) vision of the ranger. It should be the best ranged single target dps class, and it seems it is. What it doesn’t fit is people in the current pvp meta. I fought against LB ranger in pvp who actually took part in a 3v3 instead of sitting on a ledge. He wasn’t useless, but he could be dealt with. So no, RF is not just AFK brainded gameplay. People spamming it make it seem so. Also if you really think LB zerker ranger is afk brainded play, then go ahead and play it in a pvp tournament. I know its beyond your level because it doesn’t require skill, but please, indulge me and try it out in a competitive match where people are organized, and know what they are doing. Seriously, try it. If it really is that powerful, it will have its 15 mintues of fame even if you shout and cry all day. I don’t think it will however.

I’d like to very gently correct the viewpoint that all zerker lb rangers are braindead and direct attention to zerker lb ranger allows braindead play when it should not.

This is not an insult to a class, this is an examination of the skill floor of said class.

since skill floors being too low are abhorrent and shocking and make people cry.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Was RF OP before patch? I am really curious. Because I don’t think it was. It had the same cooldown, could deal the same amount of damage from the same range. Do you know what it was? A waste of time. It was a dps loss compared to autoattack, that’s what it was. The traitline most ranger trait into when using LB screams of burst, but ranger had none aside from maul. LB RF fits the traitline, it fits the profession and it fits Anets (latest) vision of the ranger. It should be the best ranged single target dps class, and it seems it is. What it doesn’t fit is people in the current pvp meta. I fought against LB ranger in pvp who actually took part in a 3v3 instead of sitting on a ledge. He wasn’t useless, but he could be dealt with. So no, RF is not just AFK brainded gameplay. People spamming it make it seem so. Also if you really think LB zerker ranger is afk brainded play, then go ahead and play it in a pvp tournament. I know its beyond your level because it doesn’t require skill, but please, indulge me and try it out in a competitive match where people are organized, and know what they are doing. Seriously, try it. If it really is that powerful, it will have its 15 mintues of fame even if you shout and cry all day. I don’t think it will however.

I’d like to very gently correct the viewpoint that all zerker lb rangers are braindead and direct attention to zerker lb ranger allows braindead play when it should not.

This is not an insult to a class, this is an examination of the skill floor of said class.

since skill floors being too low are abhorrent and shocking and make people cry.

With all due respect I disagree. Zerker lb ranger allows players to deal high damage easily in what some consider braindead play. It is no more brainded then hambow is/was, spirit build was. They were braindead because you were having too much damage that you could apply for someone who was hard to kill. LB ranger on the other hand is easy to kill as it is very, very squishy. It is weak against direct damage, and weak against conditions. You are not safe at all, and thus IMO it is not braindead gameplay. You have to get to a place that is hard to reach in pvp. And I think some classes are great to catch you there. I tried playing zerker LB before RTW even, and people could get me on high ledges as well. Mobile classes like thieves or warriors could reach me pretty quickly, and shatter mesmers could deal damage to me. The only thing it didn’t have was burst, and that is why it wasn’t effective at all. Anyone could just sit on point and sidestep arrows like it was nothing. Is it easier to deal damage with longbow now? Yes. It is not baseline though, as it costs a lot for a ranger to be able to deal that amount of damage. And braindead afk players are easily punished for that.

Broken record here, LB burst dissuades all kinds of lazy play, and in fact forces reactive play.

Maybe that’s why people are so upset about it ><

Windsagio.1340:

Broken record here, LB burst dissuades all kinds of lazy play, and in fact forces reactive play.

Maybe that’s why people are so upset about it ><

I have nothing against active play, the laziness has just shifted to the ranger.

That’s my whole hang-up.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Windsagio.1340:

Broken record here, LB burst dissuades all kinds of lazy play, and in fact forces reactive play.

Maybe that’s why people are so upset about it ><

I have nothing against active play, the laziness has just shifted to the ranger.

That’s my whole hang-up.

As long as players would rather cry on the forums than adapt to fight rangers I guess that is technically true. Of course you could call anything a lazy play style if the opponent doesn’t fight back.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Windsagio.1340:

Broken record here, LB burst dissuades all kinds of lazy play, and in fact forces reactive play.

Maybe that’s why people are so upset about it ><

I have nothing against active play, the laziness has just shifted to the ranger.

That’s my whole hang-up.

As long as players would rather cry on the forums than adapt to fight rangers I guess that is technically true. Of course you could call anything a lazy play style if the opponent doesn’t fight back.

there’s a lot of L2P issue with the recent Ranger buff, yes. That being said:

• I still eat rangers w/ retal if they happen to get RF in.
• I think the effort required for their combat effectiveness has dropped off the face of the planet.

I’m not arguing because I’m having trouble with them. The only thing the buff did to stop me from melting them was the 6 second Endure Pain buff they got.

I’m arguing because now the majority of them are just sitting around doing absolutely nothing but pressing 1, 2 off cd. A buff should not shoehorn rangers into a specific build, much less a specific skill on a weapon of that build.

It’s a L2P issue. Rapid Fire is, if anything, less broken than a perma stealth thief.

Stealths give thieves no tells on their attacks, and they can use it to very quickly burst down a squishy target with only a few hits.

Just like Rapid Fire can burst down a squishy target- except that the damage is spread over multiple hits, which gives you much more time to react and play against.

If you find yourself dying to Rapid Fire, learn to predict when it happens- chances are, the ranger is spamming it off cooldown. So learn the cooldown.

Close distance. If you run through a ranger casting Rapid Fire, it instantly cancels it and goes on full cooldown. If you get close to a longbow ranger, they’ll have to either go melee and be at a disadvantage, or go melee to flee. Either way, you instantly gain momentum.

CC the ranger. Use conditions. Build tankier. Play better.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Windsagio.1340:

Broken record here, LB burst dissuades all kinds of lazy play, and in fact forces reactive play.

Maybe that’s why people are so upset about it ><

I have nothing against active play, the laziness has just shifted to the ranger.

That’s my whole hang-up.

As long as players would rather cry on the forums than adapt to fight rangers I guess that is technically true. Of course you could call anything a lazy play style if the opponent doesn’t fight back.

there’s a lot of L2P issue with the recent Ranger buff, yes. That being said:

• I still eat rangers w/ retal if they happen to get RF in.
• I think the effort required for their combat effectiveness has dropped off the face of the planet.

I’m not arguing because I’m having trouble with them. The only thing the buff did to stop me from melting them was the 6 second Endure Pain buff they got.

I’m arguing because now the majority of them are just sitting around doing absolutely nothing but pressing 1, 2 off cd. A buff should not shoehorn rangers into a specific build, much less a specific skill on a weapon of that build.

You think anyone that was actively playing their rangers before the patch is doing this? We’ve had a bunch of new build possibilities pop up since the patch.

The people spamming buttons are the people that never touched their rangers. If they actually stick with their rangers how long do you think they will stick to that crappy 1 trick build?

It’s not our best 1v1 build, it’s not our best group build, even cry hards like yourself say you have no problem beating it 1v1, all this build is really doing is getting more people to play ranger and once they start to enjoy it they will likely start tweaking their build or looking up new builds and playing those. So what exactly is the problem here?