Guild Wars 2

I don’t understand how condition damage ignores toughness… A tougher person doesn’t bleed as much. This is just common sense. No reason for it to ignore toughness.

Please Arenanet. Condition damage is our of hand! At least for PvP.

FrownyClown.8402:

Tough people dont burn as much either. Nor do they feel the affects of poison.

I agree!

Lower condi durations. Make longer cast times or animations for necros. Have phantasms disappear after they bleed you or zerk you.

FrownyClown.8402:

Lower condi durations. Make longer cast times or animations for necros. Have phantasms disappear after they bleed you or zerk you.

I don’t agree with nerfing necros only. This is an issue that effects every condition spec class.

Mesmers and necros need animations easier to read. The problem with conditions imo is it is easily spammed and cant be avoided. Make necro marks disappear after 5 secs or something.

FrownyClown.8402:

Mesmers and necros need animations easier to read. The problem with conditions imo is it is easily spammed and cant be avoided. Make necro marks disappear after 5 secs or something.

You do know you can either just walk around them or dodge roll through them right?

At the price of what Drarnor? Crit damage? Precision? Then what do you do with your third stat? Toughness? Worthless against conditions, and sorry but Precision and Crit Damage don’t work solo

Silhouette.5631:

At the price of what Drarnor? Crit damage? Precision? Then what do you do with your third stat? Toughness? Worthless against conditions, and sorry but Precision and Crit Damage don’t work solo

Well, you build glass cannon, why do you complain when you get broken? What did you expect to happen when someone hits back?

You fail to put the appropriate defense in, and then are surprised when you fall to an attack that exploits your weakness. Almost always the root of people’s complaints about condition damage.

The point is the damage stats are multiplicative, and theres not a third stat that you can get to go along with Strength and Vitality to combat a condition bunker. If your a zerker that takes out either precision or critical damage for vitality your seriously kneecapping yourself. You CANT build defensively and get the same results. Strength Toughness Vitality would be fine against a zerker but against a condi bunker your wasting 1/3 your stats

Silhouette.5631:

The point is the damage stats are multiplicative, and theres not a third stat that you can get to go along with Strength and Vitality to combat a condition bunker. If your a zerker that takes out either precision or critical damage for vitality your seriously kneecapping yourself. You CANT build defensively and get the same results. Strength Toughness Vitality would be fine against a zerker but against a condi bunker your wasting 1/3 your stats

In other words, you are saying that you want to continue building glass cannon, but you also want the survivability of a bunker. That’s what I’m getting here. Can’t have both. If you want to survive people hitting you back, you may need to drop some offense.

Have you considered mix-and-match? There’s a reason you get multiple pieces, you know.

Strength bunker vs Condi bunker, condi bunker wins due to toughness. Its not that you cant have both, Its that you really only have one option, and that sucks

My experience with power bunker vs. condi bunker is a standstill if they’re both good, or at least until a third player comes in.. If they’re not both good, the one that is good wins.

Direct damage gets reduced by toughness, but also out-damages conditions.

By that logic Valk build> Condi bunker

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

In other words, you are saying that you want to continue building glass cannon, but you also want the survivability of a bunker..

The solution is to just use Dire gear. As much damage as a glass cannon and survivability out the nose! ^^

Lol a condition build wont be able to burst you ahundred blade of 12k in your face or single handly crit you of 4k every time. Its a more insidious gameplay and if you cant deal with it because your build yourself in a way that “if i dont kill him in the next 5 seconds i’m toast”, well its on you. A condi necro wont burst you for insane crit damage and you want to remove him the only dps its good at? Way to kill variety…

SonOfKrypton.4357:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

In other words, you are saying that you want to continue building glass cannon, but you also want the survivability of a bunker..

The solution is to just use Dire gear. As much damage as a glass cannon and survivability out the nose! ^^

Can I get wrong answers for $500, Alex?

Dire gear is quite durable, yes, but it is lower damage than Soldier’s, which is the power equivalent. Condition builds need Precision badly to proc sigils and on-crit traits.

Even without Precision or Crit damage, Power has a multiplicative effect on damage due to the damage calculations ((weapon damage*power)+(power* skill coefficient)) Condition damage…doesn’t.

directly nerfing condition damage will not achieve anything.

more stat synergy is required.
what should be done is that healing power will affect conditions just like toughness affect direct damage.

this way, if you want to be more resistant to conditions, you should give up some damage and invest into HP.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

SonOfKrypton.4357:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

In other words, you are saying that you want to continue building glass cannon, but you also want the survivability of a bunker..

The solution is to just use Dire gear. As much damage as a glass cannon and survivability out the nose! ^^

Can I get wrong answers for $500, Alex?

Dire gear is quite durable, yes, but it is lower damage than Soldier’s, which is the power equivalent. Condition builds need Precision badly to proc sigils and on-crit traits.

Even without Precision or Crit damage, Power has a multiplicative effect on damage due to the damage calculations ((weapon damage*power)+(power* skill coefficient)) Condition damage…doesn’t.

Soldier’s only does higher damage on paper, and even then it is under highly artificial constraints where two mirror classes are punching each other without using any skills or moving. The comparison is meaningless because there is no context.

In theory Killshot should inflict up to four or five times the damage that a Blood Curse chain would in the same time, but which is really more likely to land its damage complement? On paper Soldier’s will also prove superior in a slug fest to a glassy amulet due to superior sustain, but would a Soldier’s longbow Ranger really overcome a glassy dueling class? Reality completely throws these tidbits out the window.

This recent meme that Soldier’s outdamages even glassy condition specs is just pure sophistry! It’s based on fluff and rhetorical distortion. It doesn’t reflect the reality of how the game is actually played, doesn’t take into consideration any of the hundreds of varying aspects that go into how effective skills and stats are in the end.

Are you really comparing a long CD burst skill with multiple autos to say conditions are stronger and that this single attack can be dodged? Now I have seen everything.

unleashed.8679:

Are you really comparing a long CD burst skill with multiple autos to say conditions are stronger and that this single attack can be dodged? Now I have seen everything.

People do meaningless comparisons like “Soldier’s vs Berserker’s” or “Soldier’s vs Rabid” without any sense of context all the time, so I don’t see why not.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Can I get wrong answers for $500, Alex?

Dire gear is quite durable, yes, but it is lower damage than Soldier’s, which is the power equivalent. Condition builds need Precision badly to proc sigils and on-crit traits.

Even without Precision or Crit damage, Power has a multiplicative effect on damage due to the damage calculations ((weapon damage*power)+(power* skill coefficient)) Condition damage…doesn’t.

It’s (weapon strength) * power * (skill coefficient) / (defense+toughness) so I could say power damage is reduced by armour while condition damage is not.

You have more means to negate condition damage completely then direct damage, namely condition removel. So it is fair that condition damage is not effected by toughness.

If there are condition builds that are too strong, i would rather have that Anet nerfs those builds instead of changing the game mechanics. Not that i like the current debuffing/buffing system (i find it too simple, compared to gw1), but i think the basic mechenics are fine.

You could say that. Similarly one could point out that entire huge chunks of damage of condition builds are negated with cleanses. This while power damage is only great then condition damage “on paper only” argument is hilarious. It has been known since day oneof this game that vitality absorbs condition damage with cleanses to fully negate it, and toughness to negate direct damage. While dodges and blocks negate both equally

If your going to suggest one is OP over the other please use actual facts to support that. This whole “conditions are OP because I say so” argument does’ t fly…….

Cleanses have recharge, toughness not.

You have several multipliers that allow you to “cut through” your opponents armor that do not work on conditions. And most of them are permanent (+10% damage with sword, …)

The whole point of conditions, is that they are an effective counter against high toughness and armor. Vitality is the stat that counters conditions.

The OP apparently doesn’t understand the game’s rules. But that’s not the game’s fault.

Conditions just ignore one of the two mains stats of defense we have. Sounds legit, yeah.

kusanagi.3150:

Conditions just ignore one of the two mains stats of defense we have. Sounds legit, yeah.

And likewise can’t be amplified via traits or debuffs.

ITT: People do not understand the basic game mechanics enough to draw accurate conclusions from them.

hellsmachine.4085:

A tougher person doesn’t bleed as much. This is just common sense.

Because he ain’t got time to bleed?

kusanagi.3150:

Conditions just ignore one of the two mains stats of defense we have. Sounds legit, yeah.

I thought we have at least three visible defensive stats(Vitality, toughness and healing power) and then 2 invisble stats (condition duration, damage modifiers).

kusanagi.3150:

Conditions just ignore one of the two mains stats of defense we have. Sounds legit, yeah.

Since condition builds are solidly out damaged by direct damage builds, I agree with you, sounds very legit.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You want better resistance to conditions? Build Vitality.

Done.

+1

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The whole point of conditions, is that they are an effective counter against high toughness and armor. Vitality is the stat that counters conditions.

The OP apparently doesn’t understand the game’s rules. But that’s not the game’s fault.

I understand the rules just fine, that’s why I’m complaining about it, because it’s unbalanced. It can still be an effective counter just needs a major nerf.

It will definitely get nerfed, just have to wait maybe 6 months, after everyone in WvW has switched to condi after the crit nerf. Rapid cycle of nerf/re-gear/rinse/repeat to maximise sales of transmutation crystals.

The game isn’t designed for you to check every single attack. If you want to stop being taken down by the condition meta you need to start making vitality the new meta.

I guess you guys want to break PvE too.

Yeah go ahead break conditions without realizing how it affects just about everything else about combat.

It’s fine.

blakdoxa.7520:

I guess you guys want to break PvE too.

Yeah go ahead break conditions without realizing how it affects just about everything else about combat.

It’s fine.

Are you trolling?

You do realize that PvE and PvP abilities, damage, etc work differently right?

And condition damage is not good for PvE anyway.

hellsmachine.4085:

I don’t understand how condition damage ignores toughness… A tougher person doesn’t bleed as much. This is just common sense. No reason for it to ignore toughness.

Please Arenanet. Condition damage is our of hand! At least for PvP.

Yet, don’t confuse structural issues with the game modes with direct issues with the number balance.

Conditions are fairly weak. In the specific context of smallscale PvP, however, they can be very strong, due to:

• Focused targeting, coupled with…
• Low HP (compared to PvE and Castle Lords).
• Reduced availability of cleansing (less people to AE cleanse, less combo fields).
• Less synergy available to power up direct damage. In larger groups it’s common to run around with 25 Might + Fury + Swiftness + Stability, but in smaller encounters you’ll hardly have that up a lot, and if you do it’ll get ripped and you can’t re-apply it fast enough.
• Less significance of AE damage sustain versus single target.

In general, I think what’s needed is either a change to sPvP/tPvP format to alleviate this (larger maps with more people per team, so combat happens in 5v5 groups or so, and there’s 3-4 such groups per team at different points on the map). Or, a change so that large-scale encounters scale more directly from smallscale. That is, against a PvE boss my 25 Bleeding stacks are no less effective than against a player. Because in that case, they can be balanced based on that.

hellsmachine.4085:

I understand the rules just fine, that’s why I’m complaining about it, because it’s unbalanced. It can still be an effective counter just needs a major nerf.

It will definitely get nerfed, just have to wait maybe 6 months, after everyone in WvW has switched to condi after the crit nerf. Rapid cycle of nerf/re-gear/rinse/repeat to maximise sales of transmutation crystals.

Clearly you do not. You make inaccurate and uneducated prediction, and you claim something is OP when it is not, while you avoid supplying in proof, reasons at all, or number. Mostly because you either are aware that the numbers suggest the opposite of what your claiming, or you do not even know the numbers and are making claims because you die to conditions because you do not counter them. Thus your lack of success is your own fault. If you would learn to counter it to even a small extent, it would not even be an issue for you.

Bring cleanses

OR

now this is a CRAZY idea…. bear with me!!

Build your team to have – roles – where you can mitigate damage, conditions, CC, etc. AS A TEAM.

Wait, I’m sorry. Did I give away a secret?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The whole point of conditions, is that they are an effective counter against high toughness and armor. Vitality is the stat that counters conditions.

The OP apparently doesn’t understand the game’s rules. But that’s not the game’s fault.

You don’t understand: a condition spec also gains resistance against burst builds. They melt power bunkers and outlast power dps builds. Roll a conventional dps build like shatter mesmer and then fight against a proper condition gimmick such as perplexity engi or pu mesmer. Only then you will understand how broken the game is.

Master of Timespace.2548:

You don’t understand: a condition spec also gains resistance against burst builds. They melt power bunkers and outlast power dps builds. Roll a conventional dps build like shatter mesmer and then fight against a proper condition gimmick such as perplexity engi or pu mesmer. Only then you will understand how broken the game is.

I would love to have you actually post a fact behind your claim that condition builds are resistant to burst builds. As well I would love to hear how condition builds melt power based bunkers. This is the type of comments that support my positions that conditions are weaker builds then power. Not only do you make a statement that is the opposite of the truth and how this things work in actuallity, you offer not a single argument, point of logic, or even the slightest thought, as to how you came to such a conclusion.

Perplexity engineer is extremely unimpressive. As are PU mesmerism. I duel both often A little CC and semi intelligent game play, or what we simple folk refer to as dodging, blocking. and cleansing, and either one is dead.

If you feel those two builds are so strong, feel free to PM me, and I will met you for some 1v1 duels. We can record them and post the videos here. I am certain you would love to do so, because if those two builds are even half as strong as your “claiming” they are, you will obviously destroy me repeatedly, and have it posted here to prove your point. Right?

you offer not a single argument, point of logic, or even the slightest thought, as to how you came to such a conclusion.

Applies to the above post as well.

Master of Timespace.2548:

you offer not a single argument, point of logic, or even the slightest thought, as to how you came to such a conclusion.

Applies to the above post as well.

You were the one making the initial claim. The onus is on you to present your evidence that backs you up.

Just do the math and stop crying, without proving your point.

In general condition damage isn’t stronger then direct damage. There are one or two builds that are broken at the moment but those we have with direct damage as well. Just because people don’t use cleanses, use their heals to late, don’t dodge “conditions” and think they have to use a sword in every power build isn’t the fault of condition damage.

everyone knows that conditions are broken, the builds that utilize them break the absolute basics of balancing. they are able to dish out damage without sacrificing survivability due to the fact only one stat controls the strength/effectiveness of all condition damage- meaning condition sets have free access to vitality/toughness.

this is not a profession-specific issue, this is a gameplay mechanic issue.

HOWEVER, if i had to say… necro is by far the worst condition offender. signet of spite is currently one of the most broken things in the game.

…don’t dodge “conditions”.

this is one of the issues, so many condition applying attacks can barely be dodged (if at all).

signet of spite is the epitome of this: instant cast, no broadcasting, applies FAR too many conditions, and is only countered by heavy condition clearing/immunity- which is something only one or two professions can do without going completely out of their way to do so.

sinject.4607:

everyone knows that conditions are broken, the builds that utilize them break the absolute basics of balancing. they are able to dish out damage without sacrificing survivability due to the fact only one stat controls the strength/effectiveness of all condition damage- meaning condition sets have free access to vitality/toughness.

this is not a profession-specific issue, this is a gameplay mechanic issue.

HOWEVER, if i had to say… necro is by far the worst condition offender. signet of spite is currently one of the most broken things in the game.

Condition builds need three offensive stats as well (condition damage, condition duration, precision), the only difference is that one of those three stats is not available on armor or trinkets. However, they have an even greater need to have defensive stats than direct damage builds due to the fact their damage is over time. A theoretical glass cannon build for conditions would die before killing anything, because it can’t hope to kill its target before taking too much damage in return. Direct damage doesn’t have this issue.

And no, a 1 second cast, well telegraphed skill on a 60 second cooldown that deals 2 bleeds and poison for damage where the scariest thing on it is cripple is not over powered.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Condition builds need three offensive stats as well (condition damage, condition duration, precision), the only difference is that one of those three stats is not available on armor or trinkets. However, they have an even greater need to have defensive stats than direct damage builds due to the fact their damage is over time. A theoretical glass cannon build for conditions would die before killing anything, because it can’t hope to kill its target before taking too much damage in return. Direct damage doesn’t have this issue.

And no, a 1 second cast, well telegraphed skill on a 60 second cooldown that deals 2 bleeds and poison for damage where the scariest thing on it is cripple is not over powered.

please.

specifically for necro: (engineer’s exploiting of condi’s follows a similar pattern, but differs obviously because of engie having access to their own variety of bs)

condition damage is a given. it’s going to be your primary stat on your gear and obviously you’re getting plenty as a result from gear alone. then we get into upgrades, consumables, the curses traitline, etc… i dont think this needs further explanation.

condition duration is not hard to get. at all. upgrades, consumables, spite traitline, traits like hemophilia… there’s plenty of ways of getting duration, none of which make you go out of your way to get them.

precision is easy to get, obviously enough, from the rabid set. that not enough for you? well enjoy an extra +200 precision from curses! and you know what, let’s throw in fury on deathshroud for the hell of it! but hey not like you really needed it seeing as dhuumfire has a 100% proc rate and barbed precision has a 66% proc rate with no cooldown.

and what do you know? all that and you still have all this extra toughness laying around!
what’s that? toughness doesn’t do anything against conditions though? aw dont worry sport, how about we give you the highest base hp in the game (tied with warrior), give you another hp bar (deathshroud) and on top of that make your heal cleanse all conditions and then heal you for them on top of a base heal!

…

oh and the damage aspect of signet of spite is not what makes it broken, the fact that it’s used to bury the seriously damaging conditions far beyond the reach of most professions/builds ability to cleanse conditions is what makes it broken.