Guild Wars 2

Substance E.4852:

Jocksy.3415:

Prysin.8542:

EDIT: I dont mind the lack of AE, if the AE we got would strike fear in our enemies (other then making them think our side has an AC)

Lol…
The number of times I tell my bus that “it’s just a ranger”…

I die a little inside every time I watch the ticks I take from a meteor shower vs the 3 digit crits I get from Barrage.

Obviously you are running a power bunker or PVT setup, as i can assure you that such low numbers on barrage is only possible with 0 crits. Full zerker 30/30/0/10 (for an added 7% power from vitality)/0 + guard stacks, bloodlust, food and sharpening stone + signet of the wild. you should be hitting close to 1800/tick without crits and 3000++ with crits. Sure meteor shower hits harder, but that has been known since day one. Eles has stronger AE cuz they are infinately more squishy when investing fully into power.

Also, lol, you got hit by killshot.

Xaylin.1860:

While boon ripping probably should be in Skirmishing – at least from my point of view – I would enjoy Poison Master being replaced with something like ‘Remove x boons when applying Poison to a foe. x seconds cooldown.’ The increased Poison damage is rather uninspired.

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Atherakhia.4086:

Xaylin.1860:

While boon ripping probably should be in Skirmishing – at least from my point of view – I would enjoy Poison Master being replaced with something like ‘Remove x boons when applying Poison to a foe. x seconds cooldown.’ The increased Poison damage is rather uninspired.

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Each tick would be too strong with our poison uptime unless there was an ICD to this.
Imagine using Forest Spider, that can apply 40+ seconds of poison duration almost instantly, with this. It would be total boon denial, seeing as soon as they cleanse the first “wave” of poison, we got atleast 3-4 weapon skills and or pet skills to apply more.

But say, every 5th poison application (pet and ranger has individual counters on this) will also remove one boon every second for X seconds ( i think, for the sake of balance, this skill should not be ruled by poison duration as that would make it completely useless in say PvP where durations are way lower. a flat out middle ground duration is better for the health of all game modes). Personally, i think 1 boon/second for 7 seconds is a decent duration.

That, or every X’th poison application corrupts all boons. In such a case, i think every 10th application should suffice for this to be balanced.

EDIT:
Another function i’d like to see on rangers is a minor trait (somewhere) that applies weakness when we apply poison.

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

Xaylin.1860:

While boon ripping probably should be in Skirmishing – at least from my point of view – I would enjoy Poison Master being replaced with something like ‘Remove x boons when applying Poison to a foe. x seconds cooldown.’ The increased Poison damage is rather uninspired.

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Each tick would be too strong with our poison uptime unless there was an ICD to this.
Imagine using Forest Spider, that can apply 40+ seconds of poison duration almost instantly, with this. It would be total boon denial, seeing as soon as they cleanse the first “wave” of poison, we got atleast 3-4 weapon skills and or pet skills to apply more.

But say, every 5th poison application (pet and ranger has individual counters on this) will also remove one boon every second for X seconds ( i think, for the sake of balance, this skill should not be ruled by poison duration as that would make it completely useless in say PvP where durations are way lower. a flat out middle ground duration is better for the health of all game modes). Personally, i think 1 boon/second for 7 seconds is a decent duration.

That, or every X’th poison application corrupts all boons. In such a case, i think every 10th application should suffice for this to be balanced.

I certainly agree that it would be powerful. I doubt the trait would trigger off our pets though, but we’ll see. Straight up boon denial is kind of the point though and poison is quite easy to remove and somewhat difficult to reapply. It is an MMO afterall, group support is key.

I’d sooner go with an internal cooldown I think. Remove one boon every 3 seconds for example.

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

Xaylin.1860:

While boon ripping probably should be in Skirmishing – at least from my point of view – I would enjoy Poison Master being replaced with something like ‘Remove x boons when applying Poison to a foe. x seconds cooldown.’ The increased Poison damage is rather uninspired.

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Each tick would be too strong with our poison uptime unless there was an ICD to this.
Imagine using Forest Spider, that can apply 40+ seconds of poison duration almost instantly, with this. It would be total boon denial, seeing as soon as they cleanse the first “wave” of poison, we got atleast 3-4 weapon skills and or pet skills to apply more.

But say, every 5th poison application (pet and ranger has individual counters on this) will also remove one boon every second for X seconds ( i think, for the sake of balance, this skill should not be ruled by poison duration as that would make it completely useless in say PvP where durations are way lower. a flat out middle ground duration is better for the health of all game modes). Personally, i think 1 boon/second for 7 seconds is a decent duration.

That, or every X’th poison application corrupts all boons. In such a case, i think every 10th application should suffice for this to be balanced.

I certainly agree that it would be powerful. I doubt the trait would trigger off our pets though, but we’ll see. Straight up boon denial is kind of the point though and poison is quite easy to remove and somewhat difficult to reapply. It is an MMO afterall, group support is key.

I’d sooner go with an internal cooldown I think. Remove one boon every 3 seconds for example.

that could work. In most cases, i would agree that re-applying would be difficult, but considering the CD on shortbow 2, sword 3, dagger 4 and poison trap (respectively; 7.25(9), 12(15), 8(10) and 16(20) seconds CD with base durations being; 5×2 seconds, 6 seconds, 10 seconds and 3×3 seconds…

For pets poison application is as following:
Forest Spider: *
Deadly Venom (F2) = 3x 6 seconds, 30 second CD
Poison Gas (AI skill rotation) = 3 seconds, 20 second CD
*(Malicious Training + Commanding Voice):
Deadly Venom (F2) = 3x 9.5 seconds, 24 second CD
Poison Gas (AI skill rotation) = 4.75 seconds, 20 second CD

Murwellow
Poison Gas (F2) = 7x 2.25 seconds (AOE field, 7 pulses), 35 second CD
:
Poison Gas (F2) = 7×3.25 seconds, 28 second CD

Devourers F2 are similar to Murwellow F2, just shorter CD. Devourer AA has 10% chance of applying poison.

Marsh Drake
Insect Swarm (F2) = 5x 3.25 seconds, 30 seconds CD (this attack is ranged and homing)
:
Insect Swarm (F2) = 5x 4.75 seconds, 24 second CD

As you can see, we got so many ways of applying, that a counter would be A; stronger, and B; more reliable and tactical.

just my personal opinion, an ICD would work, but i prefer more control over my functions.

Atherakhia.4086:

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Per tick would be insanely overpowered. While the idea is awesome I can’t see how this ever could be balanced. The number of boons removed got to be fix since long duration Poisons would get out of hand otherwise. Of course, if the game can actually track your ticks in a way to make them remove a limited amount of boons your suggestion would feel more natural. But it would also mean that people can could counter it. An instant boon removal on Poison application is a lot more reliable.

Prysin.8542:

Another function i’d like to see on rangers is a minor trait (somewhere) that applies weakness when we apply poison.

I thought about this, too. However I’d rather see it not happen just to prevent all the hate which it could cause between Rangers and Thieves who already got this as a 15 minor trait. Of course, this is a bad reason to not give it to Rangers but I just feel uncomfortable when thinking about it.

What about ‘Applying Poisons also Chills your target’ (ICD, yadda yadda) as alternative? Instead of reducing your foes damage and endurance you’d hinder their movement and slow down their cooldowns. It is something different with a somewhat similar effect.

I love the idea that poison would remove boons, though I don’t much like the randomness of on-tick with an ICD.

On initial application would be better, imho, but between what we can apply (somewhat 19/20 per minutes, with no CD reduction, on rangers weapons only) it would be too strong… (just spam poison to deny your foes’ boons, basically)

The on aplication with an ICD (5 seconds? wouldn’t punish those who take few poison options, but would make poison spamming for boons denial less of a problem) appeals more to me.

Xaylin.1860:

Atherakhia.4086:

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Per tick would be insanely overpowered. While the idea is awesome I can’t see how this ever could be balanced. The number of boons removed got to be fix since long duration Poisons would get out of hand otherwise. Of course, if the game can actually track your ticks in a way to make them remove a limited amount of boons your suggestion would feel more natural. But it would also mean that people can could counter it. An instant boon removal on Poison application is a lot more reliable.

Prysin.8542:

Another function i’d like to see on rangers is a minor trait (somewhere) that applies weakness when we apply poison.

I thought about this, too. However I’d rather see it not happen just to prevent all the hate which it could cause between Rangers and Thieves who already got this as a 15 minor trait. Of course, this is a bad reason to not give it to Rangers but I just feel uncomfortable when thinking about it.

What about ‘Applying Poisons also Chills your target’ (ICD, yadda yadda) as alternative? Instead of reducing your foes damage and endurance you’d hinder their movement and slow down their cooldowns. It is something different with a somewhat similar effect.

Poison also applies chill would flip off every elementalist, necro and engineer in the game. They all hate that condi (Necro because they would no longer be better than rangers at something)

Prysin.8542:

Poison also applies chill would flip off every elementalist, necro and engineer in the game. They all hate that condi (Necro because they would no longer be better than rangers at something)

It would all depend on the length of the Chill and the internal cooldown. Besides, it is not like Weakness is less powerful than Chill. It just hinders you in a different way. Or was this referring to my concerns regarding Weakness and Thieves?

Xaylin.1860:

Prysin.8542:

Poison also applies chill would flip off every elementalist, necro and engineer in the game. They all hate that condi (Necro because they would no longer be better than rangers at something)

It would all depend on the length of the Chill and the internal cooldown. Besides, it is not like Weakness is less powerful than Chill. It just hinders you in a different way. Or was this referring to my concerns regarding Weakness and Thieves?

Well yes and no. With the upcoming trait for thieves applying stealth, SR will (in theory) in conjunction with Bark Skin make rangers immune to damage below 25% health. (Thief trait: 50% reduced damage when you apply stealth, this also affect others from what i can gather from the Ready Up stream. Bark Skin = 50% reduced damage below 25% HP)

I’m not exactly sure how this comes into play when discussing wether Chill or Weakness should/could be triggered via Poison. Could you please elaborate?

But since you brought it up. Does Bark Skin work while downed?
Or is that what you meant?

I’d love to see a “when you apply poison, you also apply x” trait. It would be fine if it randomly applied a condition too, like weakness or chill or x.

I don’t know if poison should just outright remove boons though, as boon removal is infinitely more useful on power builds, and our power builds have a tendency to lack poison application, especially the GS/Longbow.

My first preference would still be to have Boon Removal tied to applying Opening Strikes through Remorseless, which would finally make Remorseless competitive with other longbow traits and more than GM worth. Also, having it tied to pets in some way wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, especially if the F2 update is everything it needs to be. Something like: “Rending swap: When activated, your pets next 3 attacks, if successful, remove a boon.”

Traps removing boons per pulse when traited would be nice as well. Add a boon removal per pulse to the chill trap (so when traited it becomes 2 per pulse) and it would give people a reason to run traps on a power build, as long as a 30 point investment isn’t required (attach this functionality to the throw traps trait for instance). This would also provide an decent AoE utility roles to rangers as a soft CC/heal suppressing boon ripper.

Also, trap potency should be increased to 200% because why not, and affect the immobilize on Spike Trap if it doesn’t already.

Then again, if trait applies to pet, we just need to take a spider/devourer/murwellow to have a strong poison application. Sword+Axe is also a very strong zerker/power build, that gives you access to poison aswell.
There is no shortage of ways to apply poison on the ranger, other then Axe MH, LB and GS. But other then that, we got “everything covered”.

EDIT: I think trappers potency should not increase duration but the damage itself (similar to how the new poison trait works). In a mix of +50% duration and +100% damage
People run so much condi reduction in WvW, that increased duration is only going to make traps last long enough to do damage.

Prysin.8542:

Then again, if trait applies to pet, we just need to take a spider/devourer/murwellow to have a strong poison application. Sword+Axe is also a very strong zerker/power build, that gives you access to poison aswell.
There is no shortage of ways to apply poison on the ranger, other then Axe MH, LB and GS. But other then that, we got “everything covered”.

EDIT: I think trappers potency should not increase duration but the damage itself (similar to how the new poison trait works). In a mix of +50% duration and +100% damage
People run so much condi reduction in WvW, that increased duration is only going to make traps last long enough to do damage.

Too true and agreed with everything you said. Definitely more than one way to accomplish goals like these. +1’d also.

Prysin.8542:

Then again, if trait applies to pet, we just need to take a spider/devourer/murwellow to have a strong poison application. Sword+Axe is also a very strong zerker/power build, that gives you access to poison aswell.
There is no shortage of ways to apply poison on the ranger, other then Axe MH, LB and GS. But other then that, we got “everything covered”.

EDIT: I think trappers potency should not increase duration but the damage itself (similar to how the new poison trait works). In a mix of +50% duration and +100% damage
People run so much condi reduction in WvW, that increased duration is only going to make traps last long enough to do damage.

Using an average Zerker build in WvW (2600 power, 100% crit damage, 89% crit chance. +30% damage from traits and other multipliers) I checked to see how much damage traps deal, because they do actually scale with power, just for such a pathetic amount….These were the damage amounts against a regular enemy….

Vipers Nest for 496
Vipers Nest for 496
Vipers Nest for 451

Spike Trap for 437

Flame Trap for 669
Flame Trap for 638
Flame Trap for 638

Mosquitos barely have the base armor/toughness of an elementalist. Against a Warrior or Guardian, that damage will likely be cut in half. So, even with a 100% damage increase, its not going to be dealing much damage.

At 2600 power, the tooltip for Spike trap increased from 49 damage to 140. Vipers Nest increased from 147 to 420, and Flame Trap increased from 73 to 209. Increasing damage by 100% isn’t going to so anything. If Anet increased the power scaling so the damage increased at a vastly increased rate (so Spike trap did 700 damage at 2600 power before multipliers and crit damage. Also, with the build I posted, it would deal roughly 2250 damage if it critical hits, 910 if it doesn’t), then it would be much better. It would be an effective area denial skill that punishes people for stepping on traps without being careful. (also if damage scales the same…, Flame Trap would deal 3300 damage on a critical hit on each pulse, and Vipers nest would deal the same damage as spike trap on each pulse)

The only Concern I still have with this (and have always had) is that Anet might reduce the conditions on each trap in the name of power creep, or whatever it is they call balance.

And if we go all power anyways, its going to be adding unecessary bleeds and burning that a condition build would be able to apply much better, but can’t because your traps blocked them.

My Suggestion? – Give us a Maser or Grandmaster Trait that completely removes bleeding and burning from Traps, but vastly increases the Physical damage that each trap does. Non-damaging conditions (and poison) would remain, so each trap still has a unique purpose. (Spike for control, Frost for chill and ice field, Flame for burst damage and fire field, and Viper’s nest for reduced healing on enemies)

jcbroe.4329:

My first preference would still be to have Boon Removal tied to applying Opening Strikes through Remorseless, which would finally make Remorseless competitive with other longbow traits and more than GM worth.

I like that idea.

jcbroe.4329:

Traps removing boons per pulse when traited would be nice as well. Add a boon removal per pulse to the chill trap (so when traited it becomes 2 per pulse) and it would give people a reason to run traps on a power build, as long as a 30 point investment isn’t required (attach this functionality to the throw traps trait for instance). This would also provide an decent AoE utility roles to rangers as a soft CC/heal suppressing boon ripper.

If this only applies to the Frost Trap it should be fine. But if it was applied to all Traps it would probably be too powerful since their cooldowns are very low and you can also stack them which is not the case with, for example, Nullfield.

So we’d then be talking about a trait which adds something unqiue to each Trap like it was discussed for a possible change of Natures Voice? That would certainly be interesting.

Xaylin.1860:

jcbroe.4329:

My first preference would still be to have Boon Removal tied to applying Opening Strikes through Remorseless, which would finally make Remorseless competitive with other longbow traits and more than GM worth.

I like that idea.

jcbroe.4329:

Traps removing boons per pulse when traited would be nice as well. Add a boon removal per pulse to the chill trap (so when traited it becomes 2 per pulse) and it would give people a reason to run traps on a power build, as long as a 30 point investment isn’t required (attach this functionality to the throw traps trait for instance). This would also provide an decent AoE utility roles to rangers as a soft CC/heal suppressing boon ripper.

If this only applies to the Frost Trap it should be fine. But if it was applied to all Traps it would probably be too powerful since their cooldowns are very low and you can also stack them which is not the case with, for example, Nullfield.

So we’d then be talking about a trait which adds something unqiue to each Trap like it was discussed for a possible change of Natures Voice? That would certainly be interesting.

I may have been too vague on that trait there lol. Let me refine the ideas together. First, merge Trap Potency into Trapper’s Expertise, keep the condition duration, lose the recharge.

Now: “Trapper’s Mastery: Your traps recharge 20% faster and do 100% more physical damage. Additionally, Flame Trap now applies weakness, Spike Trap’s immobilize is 100% longer, and Viper’s Nest and Frost Trap both remove 1 boon per second per pulse (meaning even if they are overlapped, only a single boon can be removed at a time).”

Combine that with Frost Trap inherently removing 1 boon per pulse, so that would be 2 traited.

How’s that sound? I mixed and matched some things I liked.

jcbroe.4329:

…

How’s that sound? I mixed and matched some things I liked.

Ah, okay. Makes sense. I’m still not sure if that wouldn’t be too much boon removal when considering the cooldowns. I also wonder if the game can actually prohibit Frost Trap and Vipers Nest from applying their effects simultaneously.

Gernally, I prefer utility traits which either grant a unique effect for each or the same for all utilities. A mixture of both feels a bit weird. I personally would prefer the following set up.

Trappers Expertise

• Cooldown Reduction
• 600 Range
• Increased Radius

Trap Potency
Traps are more potent and gain an additional effect.

• Direct damage increased
• Duration bonus
• Spike Trap now also immobilizes when triggered (tooltip fix I guess…)
• Flame Trap now removes two boons from foes when triggered
• Frost Trap now removes two conditions from allies when triggered
• Vipers Nest now also applies Weakness when triggered

This way all Traps would gain an additional effect which benefit both power and condition builds. There also is no effect-overlap which could cause complications.

That’s fair too, I was just trying to consolidate ideas haha.

Offtopic: It would be pretty simple to code something like frost trap and vipers nest not overlapping with boon removal. The trait would act as a stipulation gateway so that when a trap is triggered, the trap acts normally, and then the trait that applies to it would activate during the pulse and remove 1 boon, then go on cooldown and become inactive for a second so that only one boon would be removed, and this would be done per pulse. It would essentially work like overlapping sigils with internal cooldowns currently works, like air and fire. Only one would activate, and then the sigils share a cooldown. So in this way, the traps would be sharing a common cooldown for the boon removal through the trap.

Back on topic: I like the idea flow, and can see that we definitely come to a common agreement about traps doing more direct damage and being able to trait to give them additional effectiveness beyond just potency.

jcbroe.4329:

That’s fair too, I was just trying to consolidate ideas haha.

Offtopic: It would be pretty simple to code something like frost trap and vipers nest not overlapping with boon removal. The trait would act as a stipulation gateway so that when a trap is triggered, the trap acts normally, and then the trait that applies to it would activate during the pulse and remove 1 boon, then go on cooldown and become inactive for a second so that only one boon would be removed, and this would be done per pulse. It would essentially work like overlapping sigils with internal cooldowns currently works, like air and fire. Only one would activate, and then the sigils share a cooldown. So in this way, the traps would be sharing a common cooldown for the boon removal through the trap.

Back on topic: I like the idea flow, and can see that we definitely come to a common agreement about traps doing more direct damage and being able to trait to give them additional effectiveness beyond just potency.

in my ethernal wisdom, that which cannot be contested, i demand that trap “deployment range” is increased from 600 to 900 range. Because we are range rs .
yeah, thats it. heed my words and implement. That, and what JC said.

Prysin.8542:

jcbroe.4329:

That’s fair too, I was just trying to consolidate ideas haha.

Offtopic: It would be pretty simple to code something like frost trap and vipers nest not overlapping with boon removal. The trait would act as a stipulation gateway so that when a trap is triggered, the trap acts normally, and then the trait that applies to it would activate during the pulse and remove 1 boon, then go on cooldown and become inactive for a second so that only one boon would be removed, and this would be done per pulse. It would essentially work like overlapping sigils with internal cooldowns currently works, like air and fire. Only one would activate, and then the sigils share a cooldown. So in this way, the traps would be sharing a common cooldown for the boon removal through the trap.

Back on topic: I like the idea flow, and can see that we definitely come to a common agreement about traps doing more direct damage and being able to trait to give them additional effectiveness beyond just potency.

in my ethernal wisdom, that which cannot be contested, i demand that trap “deployment range” is increased from 600 to 900 range. Because we are range rs .
yeah, thats it. heed my words and implement. That, and what JC said.

whoa! the prophecies are true! you are the almighty one who wields the power of ethernal wisdom who was sent to guide and save us all!

/bows before the ultra and uncontested ethernal god of gods of elder dragons of the six.

Prysin.8542:

Substance E.4852:

Jocksy.3415:

Prysin.8542:

EDIT: I dont mind the lack of AE, if the AE we got would strike fear in our enemies (other then making them think our side has an AC)

Lol…
The number of times I tell my bus that “it’s just a ranger”…

I die a little inside every time I watch the ticks I take from a meteor shower vs the 3 digit crits I get from Barrage.

Obviously you are running a power bunker or PVT setup, as i can assure you that such low numbers on barrage is only possible with 0 crits. Full zerker 30/30/0/10 (for an added 7% power from vitality)/0 + guard stacks, bloodlust, food and sharpening stone + signet of the wild. you should be hitting close to 1800/tick without crits and 3000++ with crits. Sure meteor shower hits harder, but that has been known since day one. Eles has stronger AE cuz they are infinately more squishy when investing fully into power.

Also, lol, you got hit by killshot.

Getting hit by killshot while getting attacked by a zerg is very possible, get over yourself.

Also, not running power bunker as the screen below obviously illustrates. Feel free to add in any other completely false observations.

I like how you just sort of casually invented the portmanteau of ethereal and eternal and busted it out like it was no big deal. Ethernal is apparently, officially a word now. Prysin has spoken.
:p

Lol thanks for the laugh guys, I had a long day and I needed that.

Back on topic, 900 range trap throwing would be something I want to push for full force. The 600 range has never really made much sense to me personally, since it’s an in between range that doesn’t really compliment our ranged weapons that start at 900+ since it makes us sacrifice superior positioning, or melee which wouldn’t really be all the concerned about throwing traps since we already have lots of leaps and inherent soft CC to stick to the target at a range where we wouldn’t need to throw traps.

That extra 300 range wouldn’t really break anything that I can see. As a matter of fact, it would increase the viability of traps in group play in both WvW and PvP, and by now I think people should realize that competitive build options are the way to my heart lol.

So yes, I approve of Prysin’s suggestion and prior approval

jcbroe.4329:

Lol thanks for the laugh guys, I had a long day and I needed that.

Back on topic, 900 range trap throwing would be something I want to push for full force. The 600 range has never really made much sense to me personally, since it’s an in between range that doesn’t really compliment our ranged weapons that start at 900+ since it makes us sacrifice superior positioning, or melee which wouldn’t really be all the concerned about throwing traps since we already have lots of leaps and inherent soft CC to stick to the target at a range where we wouldn’t need to throw traps.

That extra 300 range wouldn’t really break anything that I can see. As a matter of fact, it would increase the viability of traps in group play in both WvW and PvP, and by now I think people should realize that competitive build options are the way to my heart lol.

So yes, I approve of Prysin’s suggestion and prior approval

The only other real improvement that I would suggest for traps is not for more range. I would suggest that they don’t require line of sight (like engineer grenades), and also have a small arc when thrown, that way, you don’t have to stand on the very edge of walls in order to throw them at enemies on the ground below.

Otherwise, you already know my thoughts on giving traps more damage or even more effects on top of two already overloaded traits.

Chrispy.5641:

jcbroe.4329:

Lol thanks for the laugh guys, I had a long day and I needed that.

Back on topic, 900 range trap throwing would be something I want to push for full force. The 600 range has never really made much sense to me personally, since it’s an in between range that doesn’t really compliment our ranged weapons that start at 900+ since it makes us sacrifice superior positioning, or melee which wouldn’t really be all the concerned about throwing traps since we already have lots of leaps and inherent soft CC to stick to the target at a range where we wouldn’t need to throw traps.

That extra 300 range wouldn’t really break anything that I can see. As a matter of fact, it would increase the viability of traps in group play in both WvW and PvP, and by now I think people should realize that competitive build options are the way to my heart lol.

So yes, I approve of Prysin’s suggestion and prior approval

The only other real improvement that I would suggest for traps is not for more range. I would suggest that they don’t require line of sight (like engineer grenades), and also have a small arc when thrown, that way, you don’t have to stand on the very edge of walls in order to throw them at enemies on the ground below.

Otherwise, you already know my thoughts on giving traps more damage or even more effects on top of two already overloaded traits.

On the contrary, I find it interesting, when choices must be made.
Given that the choices are all interesting in different ways (and not about taking the less bad option). This is, imho, what allows for build diversity.
Eg; arrows – piercing is interesting in bus, velocity in solo PvP play.
Reduced Cd is more interesting in some settings, while more damage is in other settings.
The point should not be to stack traits that have an effect on one thing, but to pick the trait that is the more convenient.

(I’m not saying some traits consolidation is not desired, just that different traits having different effects on different gameplays is not, in itself, a bad thing – as long as the traits do bring something)

Jocksy.3415:

Chrispy.5641:

jcbroe.4329:

Lol thanks for the laugh guys, I had a long day and I needed that.

Back on topic, 900 range trap throwing would be something I want to push for full force. The 600 range has never really made much sense to me personally, since it’s an in between range that doesn’t really compliment our ranged weapons that start at 900+ since it makes us sacrifice superior positioning, or melee which wouldn’t really be all the concerned about throwing traps since we already have lots of leaps and inherent soft CC to stick to the target at a range where we wouldn’t need to throw traps.

That extra 300 range wouldn’t really break anything that I can see. As a matter of fact, it would increase the viability of traps in group play in both WvW and PvP, and by now I think people should realize that competitive build options are the way to my heart lol.

So yes, I approve of Prysin’s suggestion and prior approval

The only other real improvement that I would suggest for traps is not for more range. I would suggest that they don’t require line of sight (like engineer grenades), and also have a small arc when thrown, that way, you don’t have to stand on the very edge of walls in order to throw them at enemies on the ground below.

Otherwise, you already know my thoughts on giving traps more damage or even more effects on top of two already overloaded traits.

On the contrary, I find it interesting, when choices must be made.
Given that the choices are all interesting in different ways (and not about taking the less bad option). This is, imho, what allows for build diversity.
Eg; arrows – piercing is interesting in bus, velocity in solo PvP play.
Reduced Cd is more interesting in some settings, while more damage is in other settings.
The point should not be to stack traits that have an effect on one thing, but to pick the trait that is the more convenient.

(I’m not saying some traits consolidation is not desired, just that different traits having different effects on different gameplays is not, in itself, a bad thing – as long as the traits do bring something)

No, its not a bad thing, I agree (its what I’ve been saying about the Longbow’s many traits), but, loading absolutely everything trap related on two trap traits….., I think is a bad thing. That doesn’t promote build diversity. (removing the useless trapper’s defense trait), There’s room for a third trap trait that doesn’t involve consolidation that could, for example, change our traps to deal only physical damage instead of condition damage, or, have all our triggered traps daze the target for a split second on each pulse (yeah, you’re really going to regret going near me!).

These would seperate but equal build choices for traps instead of taking everything at once, which we shouldn’t need to be doing if trap traits ever get expanded on. Just tacking even more effects onto already existing traits doesn’t increase build diversity. Adding new traits that change gameplay in interesting ways does.

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

Chrispy.5641:

jcbroe.4329:

Lol thanks for the laugh guys, I had a long day and I needed that.

Back on topic, 900 range trap throwing would be something I want to push for full force. The 600 range has never really made much sense to me personally, since it’s an in between range that doesn’t really compliment our ranged weapons that start at 900+ since it makes us sacrifice superior positioning, or melee which wouldn’t really be all the concerned about throwing traps since we already have lots of leaps and inherent soft CC to stick to the target at a range where we wouldn’t need to throw traps.

That extra 300 range wouldn’t really break anything that I can see. As a matter of fact, it would increase the viability of traps in group play in both WvW and PvP, and by now I think people should realize that competitive build options are the way to my heart lol.

So yes, I approve of Prysin’s suggestion and prior approval

The only other real improvement that I would suggest for traps is not for more range. I would suggest that they don’t require line of sight (like engineer grenades), and also have a small arc when thrown, that way, you don’t have to stand on the very edge of walls in order to throw them at enemies on the ground below.

Otherwise, you already know my thoughts on giving traps more damage or even more effects on top of two already overloaded traits.

On the contrary, I find it interesting, when choices must be made.
Given that the choices are all interesting in different ways (and not about taking the less bad option). This is, imho, what allows for build diversity.
Eg; arrows – piercing is interesting in bus, velocity in solo PvP play.
Reduced Cd is more interesting in some settings, while more damage is in other settings.
The point should not be to stack traits that have an effect on one thing, but to pick the trait that is the more convenient.

(I’m not saying some traits consolidation is not desired, just that different traits having different effects on different gameplays is not, in itself, a bad thing – as long as the traits do bring something)

No, its not a bad thing, I agree (its what I’ve been saying about the Longbow’s many traits), but, loading absolutely everything trap related on two trap traits….., I think is a bad thing. That doesn’t promote build diversity. (removing the useless trapper’s defense trait), There’s room for a third trap trait that doesn’t involve consolidation that could, for example, change our traps to deal only physical damage instead of condition damage, or, have all our triggered traps daze the target for a split second on each pulse (yeah, you’re really going to regret going near me!).

These would seperate but equal build choices for traps instead of taking everything at once, which we shouldn’t need to be doing if trap traits ever get expanded on. Just tacking even more effects onto already existing traits doesn’t increase build diversity. Adding new traits that change gameplay in interesting ways does.

I agree as well. As a matter of fact, it reverts back to one of the main reasons why I started the thread, which is to identify key issues or areas of improvement, instead of tackling issues with singular suggestions, because ultimately, there’s a million different perspectives and right ways too accomplish something. It’s why I started with a suggestion, and then I try to “zoom out” until we’re left with the basic idea, which I believe I mentioned here:

I like the idea flow, and can see that we definitely come to a common agreement about traps doing more direct damage and being able to trait to give them additional effectiveness beyond just potency.

At this point, I would edit in a parenthetical: (boon removal, condition application manipulation, addition control effects, etc).

There’s a million different ways and ideas that these ideas can be implemented, and ultimately the goal of the thread was never supposed to create a definite “you need to do this” balance suggestion, but to stimulate creativity while highlighting common themes behind specific suggestions in order to address potential areas of improvement.

Though I appreciate the input of course, don’t get me wrong! Again, I absolutely agree with you on this, it is way too much to split between just 2 traits

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

Chrispy.5641:

jcbroe.4329:

Lol thanks for the laugh guys, I had a long day and I needed that.

Back on topic, 900 range trap throwing would be something I want to push for full force. The 600 range has never really made much sense to me personally, since it’s an in between range that doesn’t really compliment our ranged weapons that start at 900+ since it makes us sacrifice superior positioning, or melee which wouldn’t really be all the concerned about throwing traps since we already have lots of leaps and inherent soft CC to stick to the target at a range where we wouldn’t need to throw traps.

That extra 300 range wouldn’t really break anything that I can see. As a matter of fact, it would increase the viability of traps in group play in both WvW and PvP, and by now I think people should realize that competitive build options are the way to my heart lol.

So yes, I approve of Prysin’s suggestion and prior approval

The only other real improvement that I would suggest for traps is not for more range. I would suggest that they don’t require line of sight (like engineer grenades), and also have a small arc when thrown, that way, you don’t have to stand on the very edge of walls in order to throw them at enemies on the ground below.

Otherwise, you already know my thoughts on giving traps more damage or even more effects on top of two already overloaded traits.

On the contrary, I find it interesting, when choices must be made.
Given that the choices are all interesting in different ways (and not about taking the less bad option). This is, imho, what allows for build diversity.
Eg; arrows – piercing is interesting in bus, velocity in solo PvP play.
Reduced Cd is more interesting in some settings, while more damage is in other settings.
The point should not be to stack traits that have an effect on one thing, but to pick the trait that is the more convenient.

(I’m not saying some traits consolidation is not desired, just that different traits having different effects on different gameplays is not, in itself, a bad thing – as long as the traits do bring something)

No, its not a bad thing, I agree (its what I’ve been saying about the Longbow’s many traits), but, loading absolutely everything trap related on two trap traits….., I think is a bad thing. That doesn’t promote build diversity. (removing the useless trapper’s defense trait), There’s room for a third trap trait that doesn’t involve consolidation that could, for example, change our traps to deal only physical damage instead of condition damage, or, have all our triggered traps daze the target for a split second on each pulse (yeah, you’re really going to regret going near me!).

These would seperate but equal build choices for traps instead of taking everything at once, which we shouldn’t need to be doing if trap traits ever get expanded on. Just tacking even more effects onto already existing traits doesn’t increase build diversity. Adding new traits that change gameplay in interesting ways does.

Sorry, my mistake for thinking you meant something you didn’t
And yep, a trait focusing on direct damage (as we have a condi one) would be neat

Vox Hollow.2736:

I like how you just sort of casually invented the portmanteau of ethereal and eternal and busted it out like it was no big deal. Ethernal is apparently, officially a word now. Prysin has spoken.
:p

No no, you misunderstood the origin of Ethernal. It is the merging of Ethereal and Infernal. It’s that kind of Wisdom.

Rangers need more condition-applying and boon-stripping options:

Longbow
– #1 should apply bleed every shot
– #2 is fine how it is
– #3 should cripple
– #4 should remove all boons from target
– #5 should immobilize for 1 sec and cripple for another sec after

Greatsword
– #1 should apply bleed
– #2 should be a knockdown
– #3 should apply confusion
– #4 is fine
– #5 is fine

etc etc etc, you get the point. More conditions, more CC, more boon stripping. This is what the Ranger needs if they are supposed to be focusing a single target with high, sustained damage.

They also need a power boost overall. Pick a percentage that seems fair and increase all base weapon damage by X%. Start small and see how it affects the class.

Of course none of this will happen, so I don’t know why I posted this. Oh well.

@Tryxtr:

I disagree with the idea that rangers need more condition application. We have a lot of ways to apply different conditions, we just can’t maintain them the way other classes can. But with condition stacking mechanics being as bad as they are in the game, having additional condition application or condition maintenance options would only be particularly useful in solo play, and maybe to a lesser extent in WvW zergs (where reapplying conditions easily could be nominally helpful after everything has been purged due to light fields and active contition removal). If anything, we need better love for Power/Crit options, because right now there are very few viable Power/Crit builds available to us (mostly Sword/X and GS). And since we have so little viability for Power/Crit already, I don’t think that stacking conditions onto LB and GS is a good way to go, as both are currently geared toward Power/Crit builds, and making them conditions weapons would, if anything, make Power/Crit even less desirable as a build option.

As to your specific suggestions…

• LB1 — making it bleed every strike would be too reminiscent of Warrior Rifle1.
• LB2 — is not fine as it is IMO. Choosing to use it in place of LRS results in a slight loss of overall DPS when at max range distance. Taken in combination with the CD on the skill, and the result is that the minor Vuln inflicted is just not enough to justify its use in many cases.
• LB3 — adding cripple would help the newly swifted pet close distance to target and actually successfully hit them, so that wouldn’t be a bad thing, but there are more significant issues with the skill right now, such as being revealed by skills that we already finished activating before we went into stealth. The ineffective stealth effect, combined with low damage and a 12-second CD means that this skill is also not very desirable to use in most situations.
• LB4 — While I like the idea of having some options to strip or punish boons (I prefer the idea of punishment personally, just from a conceptual standpoint), I think that having the ability to strip all boons off a target, plus the knockback and ministun already on the skill, would be a bit over-powered. I think limiting it to stripping 1-2 boons, or stripping all of a limited subset of boons, would be a better way to go there. And personally, I think that the knockback distance scaling should be improved so that at closer ranges it would knockback farther than it does now (improve the gap opener aspect).
• LB5 — I think you need to be more clear here. Do you mean that each wave should immob for 1 second, plus cripple? If so, that would be OP, as no one would be able to get out of the field of fire without using some form of teleport skill, or an extremely well-timed dodge immediately after an immob stripper. If, on the other hand, you mean that the first wave should immob for 1 second, then I think that is a reasonable addition, and would at least partially address the issue of being required to stand still while channeling. I’m not sure it would be enough to make most LB rangers happy with the skill though. I’m personally in favor of cutting channel time, wave count and overall duration, and CD all in half. That would increase the general mobility use of the skill, would not increase burst (since the devs don’t want to do that), and would not decrease the DPS of the skill. But I also think that the damage coefficient per wave should be bumped up.

• GS1 — They removed Bleed application from Maul because they wanted the GS to be more of a Power/Crit weapon. I don’t see them changing their minds on that and adding bleeds to the GS auto-attack sequence.
• GS2 — I love the idea of adding a knockdown effect to this one. It fits in conceptually with both the weapon and the skill name. And it would give the weapon just a little more defensive power as well.
• GS3 — Conceptually I don’t see confusion as being something that should be applied from the GS, at least not for the Ranger. The Ranger uses the GS as a physical attack, and unless you pound someone in the head and give them a concussion with it, I don’t see Confusion as being a good fit. Maybe it could work as a secondary effect for Hilt Bash?
• GS4 and GS5 — I am also fairly comfortable with where those skills are at right now, and don’t think they need major changes unless the concept of the weapon were overhauled.

Now with regard to the design philosophy stating that the Ranger is intended to be a single-target sustained damage class. I disagree strongly with the designers’ and developers’ choice to pigeon-hole the class so strongly. I’ll discuss that in more detail in my next post…

Considering the overall mechanics of the game in almost all game modes, it is clear that the game does not lend itself to slow-and-steady damage. Right now, the game rewards efficiency far above anything else. This is why the paradigm has become one of DPS/DPS/DPS in terms of a build’s ability to increase total combined group DPS. The higher the total group DPS, the faster things die, and the faster things die, the more quickly you gain EXP, loot, achievements, chests, rare drops, etc. There is absolutely zero incentive to be slow when it comes to damage output. Combine that with the fact that most protracted battles are also best dealt with through fast DPS and substantial burst, and you find that even in such battles, slow-and-steady simply does not win the day.

The issue of reward efficiency was partially addressed in GW1 through loot scaling. But because they only scalled common items and coin, it was still best to kill as many targets as possible, as fast as possible, and preferably solo. But for those builds that didn’t have the capability of fast AoE burst, there was at least some minimal incentive to continue to play the build if you enjoyed it. I don’t think they went far enough in GW1 for scaling reward efficiency. And I think that they must implement some reasonable and significant reward efficiency scaling in GW2 if they are going to continue to try and force certain classes to be low-burst, slow-and-steady damage dealers built for attrition and sustained pressure damage. In short, if we are to be forced or pigeon-holed into attrition and/or slow, sustained pressure damage, then we need to be equally rewarded in terms of Rewards Per Minute over time (efficiency) compared to nukers and cleavers. Whereas right now we are penalized by the system through lower Rewards Per Minute than other classes. And this isn’t just an issue for Rangers either, but rather is an issue for any and all builds of any class that relies on slow and steady damage instead of high DPS burst. And similarly, groups need to have similarly equal reward efficiency regardless of if they are a pure burst DPS group or a more well-rounded group. Such a change would also make more builds viable for numerous classes, simply because groups wouldn’t be punished if you take a build that doesn’t focus on burst DPS.

I don’t have a problem with the design philosophy for the Ranger, IF the game mechanics are altered in such a way that we gain equal Rewards Per Minute regardless of if we push fast DPS and burst or instead push slow attrition and pressure damage. I don’t see a change like that coming anytime soon. And the reality is that as long as the developers, designers, and balancers stick to the current ranger design philosophy without changing the reward mechanics, the ranger class will always be broken. This is why so many suggestions have been for various ways to increase the ranger burst potential despite the fact that we’ve been told the devs don’t want to increase ranger burst, because unless the reward mechanics are changed, that is the only way to make the class comparable.

In other words, the designers and developers need to reevaluate their design philosophy for the class, or they need to change the reward mechanics in the game (or both). Until one of those things happens, the ranger class can never be well regarded when compared to other classes. Even beyond that, increasing the ranger’s ability to inflict conditions, particularly damage conditions, wouldn’t exactly maintain their concept for sustained damage. The more conditions, and the more powerful conditions we can apply, the higher our overall DPS would be (ignoring same-condition stacking problems when another character uses the same condition). For example, if they were to make GS1 inflict bleed as suggested by Tryxtr, then one could take S/T or A/T and GS, drop Bonfire and Throw Torch on a point blank target, then swap to GS and unload bleeds on top of the burning. The stacking of bleeds in addition to burn would increase the simultaneous DPS dealt. That isn’t so much an issue of sustained damage over time at that point, it becomes an issue of stacking DPS in order to increase overall DPS and thus deal the damage faster.

Beyond all of that, I do agree with Tryxtr that the ranger class could use an overall damage boost more or less across the board, but some weapons and skills need substantially more help than others. Sword right now isn’t totally atrocious, neither is GS. Axe is terrible, mostly due to the duration of the attack animation (after-cast), and longbow is not only a bit weak, but is also generally dull. More damage isn’t always going to help very much, but could help some. More interesting gameplay options and better synergy could improve some weapons considerably, most notably the longbow.

More interesting gameplay options and better synergy could improve some weapons considerably, most notably the longbow.

This is the thing I want to push for the most. Ranger has a wide spectrum of functionality in weapons, ranging from interesting gameplay and synergy through the greatsword to very, very barebones, basic, and lacking in interesting functionality, like the longbow (imo).

Some notable issues to me are:

• The overlap between the axe/dagger and axe/torch sets, mainly the first, and the shortbow, as far as combat role goes. Axe is a little more “burst” oriented and dances in and out of range more than the shortbow, but overall, the share pretty much the same characteristics, range, and function. My bigger problem lies with the shortbow and how autoattack centric it is, and personally, while I’m fine with it doing damage through steady condition application and pressure, I’d like to see the weapon be a little more control or interrupt oriented to give it more of a unique role over axe/dagger so that you can weight your choices more clearly like “okay, this is my condition damage option, and this is my combat control weapon option that favors steady damage and utility over multiple condition application and stacking.”

• The closest weapon in the game that relates to the way the longbow functions is the mesmer greatsword (and the ice bow summon from the ele) which is problematic because both of those weapons feel like night and day when it comes to interesting functionality versus the rangers longbow. Millions of things could be done. Personally, I’m in favor of a new set of longbow skills and/or damage increases and casting time decreases. Rapid Fire needs to not be such a long cast and feel so clunky. Steady damage is fine, but the weapon skill is so slow it literally gives the perception that it was designed for a slower combat game. Also, I’d very much like to see a longbow skill that immobilizes the target while teleporting our pet to that target, for pet synergy (similar to the way mesmers greatsword is good for shatter builds) and class mechanic synergy, and because that coupled with a knockback would give the longbow enough ability to maintain range which would help its feel for the flow of combat better.

Those are my big ones.

Tryxtr.6295:

Rangers need more condition-applying and boon-stripping options:

snip

Adding anything usually mean taking something off…

Like, when the added the stealth on LB, they moved the vulne in a way that makes it less efficient than it was…

Adding conditions to those weapons would mean either shaving off direct damage, or increasing CD, none of which are desired for most builds….

Unless Anet comes and say “we felt that these weapons were somewhat underwhelming” I don’t see them just adding effects to them without taking anything off.

As many, I would love GS AA to get a somewhat higher damage ratio, but I reckon that would likely be at the expense of Maul, which would hurt many builds…

jcbroe.4329:

Also, I’d very much like to see a longbow skill that immobilizes the target while teleporting our pet to that target, for pet synergy (similar to the way mesmers greatsword is good for shatter builds) and class mechanic synergy, and because that coupled with a knockback would give the longbow enough ability to maintain range which would help its feel for the flow of combat better.

Those are my big ones.

“Soul Shot”
Turn your pet into a magiccal arrow and fire it at your enemy. Different pet families provide different effects.

Base Damage: 550
Power Co-efficiency: 1.1
Casting time: 1.5 seconds
Ursine, porcine, drake – 3x Base Damage
Feline, Birds – 10 stacks of bleeding (single target)
Moas – 5 seconds Daze to foes (splash effect)
Canines – AOE blow-out around the ranger (updraft), Arrow knocks down and immobilizes a single foe for 3 seconds
Spiders, Devourers – Life drain equal to the damage done

Warning Text: “This skill costs 50% of your pet’s HP. If Pet has less then 50% HP when using the skill, the pet dies.”
Cooldown – 50 seconds

jcbroe.4329:

…

While both Shortbow and MH Axe certainly do have some overlap I can see enough differences. Axe overall is more straightforward and can be used for single and multi-target conditions depending on the offhand. Shortbow is generally more single target. But there are other aspects to it. CC and flanking. I don’t mind Shorbow being AA heavy because of flanking. However, it falls flat onto its face because it got no innate abilities which enable you to flank outside of PvE where you can use your pet. I sometimes feel that people won’t even bother trying to flank because it is too troublesome (those ‘remove requirement for bleeds’ threads…). Shortbow would feel more fluid and natural if it had an Immobilize instead of Cripple on #4 even if it meant an increased cooldown.

I agree that Rapid Fire needs a shorter channeltime. But I guess everybody agrees with that. I don’t agree with Immobilize on LB#3, though. A Cripple would probably be enough to maintain a certain range. Maybe a Chill for the little extra if you feel a Cripple won’t cut it. But an Immobilize with a potential range of 1500… whua. I can already see this being abused to keep people from running instead of yourself keeping a distance.

Xaylin.1860:

jcbroe.4329:

…

While both Shortbow and MH Axe certainly do have some overlap I can see enough differences. Axe overall is more straightforward and can be used for single and multi-target conditions depending on the offhand. Shortbow is generally more single target. But there are other aspects to it. CC and flanking. I don’t mind Shorbow being AA heavy because of flanking. However, it falls flat onto its face because it got no innate abilities which enable you to flank outside of PvE where you can use your pet. I sometimes feel that people won’t even bother trying to flank because it is too troublesome (those ‘remove requirement for bleeds’ threads…). Shortbow would feel more fluid and natural if it had an Immobilize instead of Cripple on #4 even if it meant an increased cooldown.

I agree that Rapid Fire needs a shorter channeltime. But I guess everybody agrees with that. I don’t agree with Immobilize on LB#3, though. A Cripple would probably be enough to maintain a certain range. Maybe a Chill for the little extra if you feel a Cripple won’t cut it. But an Immobilize with a potential range of 1500… whua. I can already see this being abused to keep people from running instead of yourself keeping a distance.

immob would be fine. We are the kings of AOE immob, all we need now is a long range immob that out-ranges anything warriors got and we will be THE undisputed kings of immobilization. I can also see such a condition on LB making rangers much more desirable in PvP and WvW. The ability to (in conjunction with piercing arrows) to lay down hard and soft CC on the fly, at a large distance has both tactical and practical merits.
The duration doesn’t need to be long. 2-3 seconds base would be plentiful for it to serve its purpose.

Prysin.8542:

immob would be fine. We are the kings of AOE immob, all we need now is a long range immob that out-ranges anything warriors got and we will be THE undisputed kings of immobilization.

From the Rangers point of you I agree with you. However, how do you feel when taking the point of view of your opponent? Is it fun to be immobilized at 1500 range? Do you have reasonable ways to counter it? Without Read the Wind you might be able to strafe or avoid it. With Read the Wind it could become be very difficult. Besides dodging it most opponents won’t be able to do anything because of your range advantage. There probably is no worse funkiller in a game than uncounterable skills (even if it requires traits).

I think an Immobilize on LB#3 would be fine in PvP where Rangers have a harder time utilizing their range advantage. Not so sure about WvW. It would be extremly powerful with insane troll potential. The synergy with Piercing Arrows would be nice but it undermines the usefulness of Muddy Terrain and (traited) Spike Trap at the same time. While those skills might remain useful in other scenarios I’m not sure if making utilities less appealing for the benefit of LB is desirable.

Xaylin.1860:

Prysin.8542:

immob would be fine. We are the kings of AOE immob, all we need now is a long range immob that out-ranges anything warriors got and we will be THE undisputed kings of immobilization.

From the Rangers point of you I agree with you. However, how do you feel when taking the point of view of your opponent? Is it fun to be immobilized at 1500 range? Do you have reasonable ways to counter it? Without Read the Wind you might be able to strafe or avoid it. With Read the Wind it could become be very difficult. Besides dodging it most opponents won’t be able to do anything because of your range advantage. There probably is no worse funkiller in a game than uncounterable skills (even if it requires traits).

I think an Immobilize on LB#3 would be fine in PvP where Rangers have a harder time utilizing their range advantage. Not so sure about WvW. It would be extremly powerful with insane troll potential. The synergy with Piercing Arrows would be nice but it undermines the usefulness of Muddy Terrain and (traited) Spike Trap at the same time. While those skills might remain useful in other scenarios I’m not sure if making utilities less appealing for the benefit of LB is desirable.

I wasn’t suggesting an immobilization on 3 at all though. I was suggesting more like a removal of a current skill entirely in order to create a skill that would immobilize and teleport the pet to the target, and maybe even make the pets next attack do more damage as well. A skill like this would need to have a fairly obvious animation, and a 25-30s cooldown time, and that’s where the balance is. A big skill that would help longbow keep it’s range even better for the bonus range damage stipulation.

Personally I would remove longbow 4 right now in replacement for this, although I know lots of people longbow 4 to be one of the better skills on the weaponset. But I do think the longbow would benefit much more from a skill that immobilizes than any other skill on the weapon we have right now, especially with a skill like rapid fire, which enemies can literally evade twice to you after you land knockback shot and avoid most if not all of the damage, make that combination of skill pretty moot.

Since we’re talking about the Shortbow and the Axe….I would have to give the advantage to the Shortbow. The reason is because of the Axe’s long aftercast time after using the auto attack. It sometimes prevents you from using other skills immediately, and makes using the weapon all around sluggish compared to any of our other weapons.

Prysin.8542:

Xaylin.1860:

Atherakhia.4086:

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Per tick would be insanely overpowered. While the idea is awesome I can’t see how this ever could be balanced. The number of boons removed got to be fix since long duration Poisons would get out of hand otherwise. Of course, if the game can actually track your ticks in a way to make them remove a limited amount of boons your suggestion would feel more natural. But it would also mean that people can could counter it. An instant boon removal on Poison application is a lot more reliable.

Prysin.8542:

Another function i’d like to see on rangers is a minor trait (somewhere) that applies weakness when we apply poison.

I thought about this, too. However I’d rather see it not happen just to prevent all the hate which it could cause between Rangers and Thieves who already got this as a 15 minor trait. Of course, this is a bad reason to not give it to Rangers but I just feel uncomfortable when thinking about it.

What about ‘Applying Poisons also Chills your target’ (ICD, yadda yadda) as alternative? Instead of reducing your foes damage and endurance you’d hinder their movement and slow down their cooldowns. It is something different with a somewhat similar effect.

Poison also applies chill would flip off every elementalist, necro and engineer in the game. They all hate that condi (Necro because they would no longer be better than rangers at something)

Necro’s have always had superior AOE damage than ranger. That’s something we lack and I would love more sources of AOE that can actually hit hard without having to go full zerk.

Xaylin.1860:

I don’t agree with Immobilize on LB#3, though. A Cripple would probably be enough to maintain a certain range. Maybe a Chill for the little extra if you feel a Cripple won’t cut it. But an Immobilize with a potential range of 1500… whua. I can already see this being abused to keep people from running instead of yourself keeping a distance.

The only logical place to put cripple is LB1. LB3 does too much already (one of the many inherent problems when you trim the game down to so few skills.) and if you’re playing it properly, you should be saving it for use tactically and not firing it hoping to cripple the target. LB2 is bread and butter close range and for stealth targets. LB4 is the general distance maker. LB5 already cripples, albeit at great hazard to you.

LB1 should be a chance cripple, proc rate affected by crit %, duration affected by condi so it works for both power and condi builds. So if you go full zerk, you have a little more breathing room than before, and if you go condi, you’d have much longer duration but you don’t hit as hard and it can help you cover your poison/torment/bleeds.

jcbroe.4329:

I wasn’t suggesting an immobilization on 3 at all though. I was suggesting more like a removal of a current skill entirely in order to create a skill that would immobilize and teleport the pet to the target, and maybe even make the pets next attack do more damage as well. A skill like this would need to have a fairly obvious animation, and a 25-30s cooldown time, and that’s where the balance is. A big skill that would help longbow keep it’s range even better for the bonus range damage stipulation.

The only way I could see an Immobilize on LB#3 is if it had 900 or less range. Regardless what it actually does besides that. 1500 range Immobilize would just be too nasty. But other people might feel differently.

One thing you might want to consider when asking for a pet teleport on a LB skill: What would happen with Piercing Arrow? It would probably work like P/P and Richochet on Thieves which is a bit… weird.

Aridia.3042:

The only logical place to put cripple is LB1.

Regardless about which class we are talking I’m not a fan of CC on AAs. Even more so on ranged weapons because this leads to a brainless AA spammfest. No skill to be found here. Rangers already got that reputation in PvE and wouldn’t like to see this extent to PvP and WvW.

warriorjrd.8695:

Prysin.8542:

Xaylin.1860:

Atherakhia.4086:

That would certainly be one way to do it actually. Each tick of poison removes a boon. This coupled with our pets fields (working under the assumption the trait would even trigger for our pets) and the new snake trap field would certainly make the trait much more valuable.

Per tick would be insanely overpowered. While the idea is awesome I can’t see how this ever could be balanced. The number of boons removed got to be fix since long duration Poisons would get out of hand otherwise. Of course, if the game can actually track your ticks in a way to make them remove a limited amount of boons your suggestion would feel more natural. But it would also mean that people can could counter it. An instant boon removal on Poison application is a lot more reliable.

Prysin.8542:

Another function i’d like to see on rangers is a minor trait (somewhere) that applies weakness when we apply poison.

I thought about this, too. However I’d rather see it not happen just to prevent all the hate which it could cause between Rangers and Thieves who already got this as a 15 minor trait. Of course, this is a bad reason to not give it to Rangers but I just feel uncomfortable when thinking about it.

What about ‘Applying Poisons also Chills your target’ (ICD, yadda yadda) as alternative? Instead of reducing your foes damage and endurance you’d hinder their movement and slow down their cooldowns. It is something different with a somewhat similar effect.

Poison also applies chill would flip off every elementalist, necro and engineer in the game. They all hate that condi (Necro because they would no longer be better than rangers at something)

Necro’s have always had superior AOE damage than ranger. That’s something we lack and I would love more sources of AOE that can actually hit hard without having to go full zerk.

didnt speak of AOE.
Rangers already are way better at Fear (this has been documented and proven with several videos and math). So that is strike one, and if we by some miracle got more chill spam too, then necros would have little to offer except AOE.
As for AOE condies, necro wells/marks are larger with slightly more range, but ranger traps are more spammable and potent in their raw form. Necro traits are what makes their condi builds OP.

Bring back “Strike As One”. SoA was a Ranger Elite in GW1 that let the pet shadow step to an enemy and then some conditions were applied. Heck, I would mind seeing all the pets just passively getting this skill applied to them with a trait or you could add pets that had this as their F2 skill. Rangers need a way to get their pets to a target immediately. The AI needs to be fixed as well for it to work, but this is the type of thing the Ranger needs. Also, if the pets can’t be made into an asset —not just “okay” AI-- then they need to be removed as the core mechanic. The class will remain broken in a way until that happens. There are so many options in the traits for Ranger that simply don’t work that I don’t feel I am being hyperbolic in saying that they are broken right now.

Iason Evan.3806:

Bring back “Strike As One”. SoA was a Ranger Elite in GW1 that let the pet shadow step to an enemy and then some conditions were applied. Heck, I would mind seeing all the pets just passively getting this skill applied to them with a trait or you could add pets that had this as their F2 skill. Rangers need a way to get their pets to a target immediately. The AI needs to be fixed as well for it to work, but this is the type of thing the Ranger needs. Also, if the pets can’t be made into an asset —not just “okay” AI-- then they need to be removed as the core mechanic. The class will remain broken in a way until that happens. There are so many options in the traits for Ranger that simply don’t work that I don’t feel I am being hyperbolic in saying that they are broken right now.

lol i was actually really hoping that this skill would come back into the game, was EASILY my favorite elite skill… I miss my teleporting Wolf that bled people as i crippled them…

Substance E.4852:

Jocksy.3415:

Prysin.8542:

EDIT: I dont mind the lack of AE, if the AE we got would strike fear in our enemies (other then making them think our side has an AC)

Lol…
The number of times I tell my bus that “it’s just a ranger”…

I die a little inside every time I watch the ticks I take from a meteor shower vs the 3 digit crits I get from Barrage.

But barrage have cripple!

McWolfy.5924:

Substance E.4852:

Jocksy.3415:

Prysin.8542:

EDIT: I dont mind the lack of AE, if the AE we got would strike fear in our enemies (other then making them think our side has an AC)

Lol…
The number of times I tell my bus that “it’s just a ranger”…

I die a little inside every time I watch the ticks I take from a meteor shower vs the 3 digit crits I get from Barrage.

But barrage have cripple!

Barrage also is a “You’re hit for being in this area” where meteor shower you can stand in the giant kitten circle and never actually be hit if the RNG gods smile upon you.

Meteor Shower is also useless 1v1 because an ele can’t realistically stand still to cast it or else they’ll be torn to shreds (ele’s are like sharks, if they stop moving they die.), where a ranger has both more health, and armor than the ele in most builds.

The more you know!! Rainbow

Does any one of you actually READ the patch previews or any developer posts? Pet AI fix, Sword AA Fix and a bunch of other stuff is already in the works (Sword AA may or may not make it to feature build, they didnt know if they could get it done by then)
So stop crying about pet AI, F2 responsiveness, Sword AA and stuff like that when it is being fixed.

Sit back, take a big bottle of patience and wait for their results (just 2 weeks left) and if you still are not happy about the result, cry AFTER the patch.