Guild Wars 2

The problem is in the game mechanics devaluing a majority of the possible investments in the game. The primary investment of the game is gear, since traits and skills are easily swapped in and out (outside of weapon skills because of stats on weapons). The fact that there are many mechanics for support and control that do not have to be geared for to be especially useful for the purpose of clearing a majority of hard content mean that eventually the community will see anything outside of Berserker/Assassin as virtually useless in PvE.

Basically, investments in becoming a primary control or support player is crappy relative to investments in becoming a primary DPS player. So much so, in fact, that even bringing a mixed group is horrible when compared to bringing just 5 DPS players. Because of this, the game might as well be stat less in PvE with everyone naturally getting Berserker/Assassin stats.

The envisioned scenario is a combination of players geared for DPS, Control, and Support being the optimal group for clearing dungeons. Currently we have people geared for DPS, traited for DPS, some Control, and a little Support (primarily reflects), and using utility skills and profession combos to make up the rest of the Support (25 might stacks, 25 vulnerability stacks, quickness, banners, etc.).

There are some issues that can be seen from the envisioned scenario, like the fact we may get one of the problems from the Holy Trinity with people refusing to do content without specific roles being present, but we already have some of that with people refusing to work with other people geared in non-Berserker.

Following this, groups that don’t follow the envisioned scenario will still be very effective, but not completely. As an example, a full Berserker group can say, be 90% as effective as a specifically geared and diverse DPS/Control/Support group. A full Control group can be 75% as effective and a full Support group can be 60% as effective.

Reaching the envisioned scenario can only realistically be gained by changing the AI mechanics. We know that there are ways to have fights that don’t allow everyone to just go full Berseker as the most optimal strategy, as seen in WvW and PvP. Finding a way to do that with enemy AI is the goal.

Darcy Cash.6301:

Pretty much what Nike said. You cannot accurately administer a solution if you cannot accurately diagnose the problem. You cannot accurately diagnose the problem if you cannot accurately articulate what “should be.”

Play how you want is not what should be meta.

The OP already diagnose the problem very concisely. And his proposed solutions are provided in a link. I don’t see what the problem is.

Proven.2854:

Basically, investments in becoming a primary control or support player is crappy relative to investments in becoming a primary DPS player.

There is no investment into becoming a primary control player. At most, you need a level 1 white weapon or two and to be naked. There is no stat in the gear that you need to invest into to control. Ok, maybe you need runes and sigils at most.

As for support, short of the pure healing support, there is no stats either. Still, healing support isn’t that good in the game because ANet doesn’t want primary healers anyway. In fact, most group heals have very bad scaling with healing power compared to your personal heal.

So, a support or a control player that geared into anything other than Zerk isn’t necessarily optimal. Because you DO dps some inbetween control or support actions.

Proven.2854:

The envisioned scenario is a combination of players geared for DPS, Control, and Support being the optimal group for clearing dungeons.

I’ve quoted your mistake for you. This is not the scenario anet envisioned when designing a no trinity game. This is not the scenario I envisioned when I was told this is a no trinity game.

This is the scenario envisioned by people who seem want to play some other game, but for some reason stick with this one.

I guess I’ll say it for the third time in this thread… every character has to dps, control and support. That is what anet promised when they said “no trinity.” This is what they delivered.

I suppose I’ll repeat something else too….

Traits and skills determine playstyle (aka dps, support, control)

Gear determines offensive vs defense.

People clamoring for more useful support and control value in pve should be talking about a TRAIT and UTILITY SKILL rebalance, not a gearing change

Aza.2105:

Darcy Cash.6301:

Pretty much what Nike said. You cannot accurately administer a solution if you cannot accurately diagnose the problem. You cannot accurately diagnose the problem if you cannot accurately articulate what “should be.”

Play how you want is not what should be meta.

The OP already diagnose the problem very concisely. And his proposed solutions are provided in a link. I don’t see what the problem is.

Right, there is no problem. OP makes a problem out of thin air.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Aza.2105:

Darcy Cash.6301:

Pretty much what Nike said. You cannot accurately administer a solution if you cannot accurately diagnose the problem. You cannot accurately diagnose the problem if you cannot accurately articulate what “should be.”

Play how you want is not what should be meta.

The OP already diagnose the problem very concisely. And his proposed solutions are provided in a link. I don’t see what the problem is.

Right, there is no problem. OP makes a problem out of thin air.

This guy.

OP states the game premise is play how you want – the “should be.” You may agree, but I don’t. Nike provides a more accurate interpretation of the “should be” – a tradeoff of risk vs. reward in gearsets in which Rampager gets totally shafted.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Proven.2854:

The envisioned scenario is a combination of players geared for DPS, Control, and Support being the optimal group for clearing dungeons.

I’ve quoted your mistake for you. This is not the scenario anet envisioned when designing a no trinity game. This is not the scenario I envisioned when I was told this is a no trinity game.

The “no trinity” was in refrence to tank/healer/DPS classes that plagues every other MMO. ANet has actually stated several times that they want a “new” trinity of “support, control, and damage.” The difference is that, unlike in other MMO’s, these roles are not restricted to particular classes. Any character can fulfill any of these roles, or even combine them (though specialization yields better results). That is how the game was intended and where the whole “play how you want” philosophy comes from. Given that the Berserker meta (basically everyone DPS with maybe some support, generally lacking Control) doesn’t exist anywhere but PvE, it is clearly not an issue with the gear itself, but the challenges faced.

Like nike said. Its nothing to do with gear. Its traits, utilities and game mechanics. You need more challenging mechanics to make people take more cc and more supportive traits. And those traits need to be improved. But that doesnt mean making people take defensive gear.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Proven.2854:

The envisioned scenario is a combination of players geared for DPS, Control, and Support being the optimal group for clearing dungeons.

I’ve quoted your mistake for you. This is not the scenario anet envisioned when designing a no trinity game. This is not the scenario I envisioned when I was told this is a no trinity game.

The “no trinity” was in refrence to tank/healer/DPS classes that plagues every other MMO. ANet has actually stated several times that they want a “new” trinity of “support, control, and damage.” The difference is that, unlike in other MMO’s, these roles are not restricted to particular classes. Any character can fulfill any of these roles, or even combine them (though specialization yields better results). That is how the game was intended and where the whole “play how you want” philosophy comes from. Given that the Berserker meta (basically everyone DPS with maybe some support, generally lacking Control) doesn’t exist anywhere but PvE, it is clearly not an issue with the gear itself, but the challenges faced.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1078544-GW2-official-Blogpost-about-the-Holy-Trinity-must-read

gear is about offensive or defensive. traits, utilities are about cc and support you can provide.
there are no roles in this game. there are playstyles. and playstyle is not full heal/tank, its about how much dps you sacrifice to bring more utility to your group.

nike is right.

and let me quote the most important part from that blogpost:

“We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, and do damage. We believe that this creates more dynamic combat and more distinct professions because there are more play styles than roles”

and this is exactly what gw2 is about.

5 good players can go full dps while supporting each other with the right utilities and traits.
5 bad players have to gear more defensive while still supporting each other with utilities and traits.

its not about going full tank or heal. and people have to accept it finally.

Blood doesn’t have any burden of proof to describe why the DPS meta is a problem, because Anet flat-out said they were treating it that way. If you’ve got an issue with that concept, don’t shoot the messenger.

Aza.2105:

Berner.7289:

A well-reasoned analysis, but I disagree that player skill has no part of this discussion. Objectively, the “zerker” playstyle has a higher skillcap because the active defenses must be deployed correctly (type, timing, placement) to gain the benefits of front-loaded DPS. Failure to correctly use the active defense in a highly skillful manner typically results in the defeat of the player and/or team (and corresponding loss of money and time).

By contrast, more defensive playstyles have a lower skill requirement because there is greater room for error in the execution of the available active defenses. This is not an elitist statement, or an insult to lower skilled players. It is an objective fact, and frankly a positive testament to the game’s design that all content can be completed by players of varying skill levels.

But it is a basic tenant of game design that higher skill should be rewarded. Lowering the skillcap — or raising the skill floor — eliminates the fun of getting better at the game.

This is why I disagree with your premise that there is a problem with the Berserker meta. Nerfing Berserker gear or raising the effectiveness of defensive playstyles lowers the skillcap, making the game less rewarding for skillful play. Currently there is positive correlation between higher skilled play and player reward (measured in any number of metrics, including gold/hr and time to complete content). To reduce or eliminate that correlation by lowering the skillcap would be a significant mistake, in my opinion.

This doesn’t make sense really. With zerker runs you bypass and negate enemy mechanics through active defenses. So you do not have to deal with what the mob ai may do. With a more defensive build you are responding accordingly to enemy attacks. That is the mob actually has a opportunity to react to you.

So how is it possible to have a higher skill cap when in most cases mobs do not have a chance to fully carry out their attacks against zerker builds? To quote the OP:

“Active defense: Enemies need to make so many moves before they get through active defense. The faster an enemy dies, the less moves they make. The less moves they make, the less likely they are to go through your active defense. With this in mind, it is very easy to do so much damage that an enemy dies before they can go through your active defense.”

In essence zerker builds would have a lower skill cap since the mobs aren’t even fighting back. Its more so player vs a target that doesn’t get a chance to damage you.

…

If you truly believe that Zerk is the ‘lesser’ skilled between the two types, then we can’t really have a discussion. That is so far removed from reality that I cannot even comprehend how someone could think that.

You have hopefully seen the video of the tank specs doing Arah, without ever evade rolling? This is somehow more skillful than Zerk specs clever use of evades, and other defenses to avoid damage?

Facetanking is more skillful now than timing evasion?

I dont’ even….

Ahlen.7591:

Aza.2105:

Berner.7289:

A well-reasoned analysis, but I disagree that player skill has no part of this discussion. Objectively, the “zerker” playstyle has a higher skillcap because the active defenses must be deployed correctly (type, timing, placement) to gain the benefits of front-loaded DPS. Failure to correctly use the active defense in a highly skillful manner typically results in the defeat of the player and/or team (and corresponding loss of money and time).

By contrast, more defensive playstyles have a lower skill requirement because there is greater room for error in the execution of the available active defenses. This is not an elitist statement, or an insult to lower skilled players. It is an objective fact, and frankly a positive testament to the game’s design that all content can be completed by players of varying skill levels.

But it is a basic tenant of game design that higher skill should be rewarded. Lowering the skillcap — or raising the skill floor — eliminates the fun of getting better at the game.

This is why I disagree with your premise that there is a problem with the Berserker meta. Nerfing Berserker gear or raising the effectiveness of defensive playstyles lowers the skillcap, making the game less rewarding for skillful play. Currently there is positive correlation between higher skilled play and player reward (measured in any number of metrics, including gold/hr and time to complete content). To reduce or eliminate that correlation by lowering the skillcap would be a significant mistake, in my opinion.

This doesn’t make sense really. With zerker runs you bypass and negate enemy mechanics through active defenses. So you do not have to deal with what the mob ai may do. With a more defensive build you are responding accordingly to enemy attacks. That is the mob actually has a opportunity to react to you.

So how is it possible to have a higher skill cap when in most cases mobs do not have a chance to fully carry out their attacks against zerker builds? To quote the OP:

“Active defense: Enemies need to make so many moves before they get through active defense. The faster an enemy dies, the less moves they make. The less moves they make, the less likely they are to go through your active defense. With this in mind, it is very easy to do so much damage that an enemy dies before they can go through your active defense.”

In essence zerker builds would have a lower skill cap since the mobs aren’t even fighting back. Its more so player vs a target that doesn’t get a chance to damage you.

…

If you truly believe that Zerk is the ‘lesser’ skilled between the two types, then we can’t really have a discussion. That is so far removed from reality that I cannot even comprehend how someone could think that.

You have hopefully seen the video of the tank specs doing Arah, without ever evade rolling? This is somehow more skillful than Zerk specs clever use of evades, and other defenses to avoid damage?

Facetanking is more skillful now than timing evasion?

I dont’ even….

I’m willing to bet a majority of the “skilled berserker” players wouldn’t survive long at all in PvP or WvW. There are legitimately skilled players that use Berserker gear, that I won’t deny. The majority of them, though, aren’t as good as they claim they are. Dodging well-telegraphed, infrequent attacks is downright simple compared to facing opponents that actually can put out pressure, may bait your active defenses, and will likewise actually avoid your own big attacks.

Again, the gear isn’t the problem. Enemy design is, as there simply is not enough risk in PvE for the reward you get from pure Zerker.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m willing to bet a majority of the “skilled berserker” players wouldn’t survive long at all in PvP or WvW. .

Where do you get all this wisdom from regarding this subject?

The ones that can read tells and dodge key attacks are probably fine in wvw and pvp. Its the zerkers who cant even survive in pve who cant survive anywhere.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ahlen.7591:

Aza.2105:

Berner.7289:

A well-reasoned analysis, but I disagree that player skill has no part of this discussion. Objectively, the “zerker” playstyle has a higher skillcap because the active defenses must be deployed correctly (type, timing, placement) to gain the benefits of front-loaded DPS. Failure to correctly use the active defense in a highly skillful manner typically results in the defeat of the player and/or team (and corresponding loss of money and time).

By contrast, more defensive playstyles have a lower skill requirement because there is greater room for error in the execution of the available active defenses. This is not an elitist statement, or an insult to lower skilled players. It is an objective fact, and frankly a positive testament to the game’s design that all content can be completed by players of varying skill levels.

But it is a basic tenant of game design that higher skill should be rewarded. Lowering the skillcap — or raising the skill floor — eliminates the fun of getting better at the game.

This is why I disagree with your premise that there is a problem with the Berserker meta. Nerfing Berserker gear or raising the effectiveness of defensive playstyles lowers the skillcap, making the game less rewarding for skillful play. Currently there is positive correlation between higher skilled play and player reward (measured in any number of metrics, including gold/hr and time to complete content). To reduce or eliminate that correlation by lowering the skillcap would be a significant mistake, in my opinion.

This doesn’t make sense really. With zerker runs you bypass and negate enemy mechanics through active defenses. So you do not have to deal with what the mob ai may do. With a more defensive build you are responding accordingly to enemy attacks. That is the mob actually has a opportunity to react to you.

So how is it possible to have a higher skill cap when in most cases mobs do not have a chance to fully carry out their attacks against zerker builds? To quote the OP:

“Active defense: Enemies need to make so many moves before they get through active defense. The faster an enemy dies, the less moves they make. The less moves they make, the less likely they are to go through your active defense. With this in mind, it is very easy to do so much damage that an enemy dies before they can go through your active defense.”

In essence zerker builds would have a lower skill cap since the mobs aren’t even fighting back. Its more so player vs a target that doesn’t get a chance to damage you.

…

If you truly believe that Zerk is the ‘lesser’ skilled between the two types, then we can’t really have a discussion. That is so far removed from reality that I cannot even comprehend how someone could think that.

You have hopefully seen the video of the tank specs doing Arah, without ever evade rolling? This is somehow more skillful than Zerk specs clever use of evades, and other defenses to avoid damage?

Facetanking is more skillful now than timing evasion?

I dont’ even….

I’m willing to bet a majority of the “skilled berserker” players wouldn’t survive long at all in PvP or WvW. There are legitimately skilled players that use Berserker gear, that I won’t deny. The majority of them, though, aren’t as good as they claim they are. Dodging well-telegraphed, infrequent attacks is downright simple compared to facing opponents that actually can put out pressure, may bait your active defenses, and will likewise actually avoid your own big attacks.

Again, the gear isn’t the problem. Enemy design is, as there simply is not enough risk in PvE for the reward you get from pure Zerker.

Well I personally wouldn’t wear Zerker gear in either PVP or WvW, because it is literally directly countered by conbunker (high defense, crushes low HP).

Besides, this is a purely PVE discussion, what does sPVP or WvW have to do with it?

Ahlen.7591:

Besides, this is a purely PVE discussion, what does sPVP or WvW have to do with it?

Because PvP and WvW prove that defensive geared builds require as much player’s skill as offensive builds do to pull it of.

Which again points towards the ineffective PvE enemy design.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Ahlen.7591:

Besides, this is a purely PVE discussion, what does sPVP or WvW have to do with it?

Because PvP and WvW prove that defensive geared builds require as much player’s skill as offensive builds do to pull it of.

Which again points towards the ineffective PvE enemy design.

defensive gear is fine in wvw and pvp. but that doesnt mean using defensive gear in pve needs any skill.

and this is how bad pve players are in wvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCaEGzBkEuo
how can he even win 1vsx in wvw after playing PvE and berserker for so long?

+ PvE monsters are probably smarter and better compared to the majority of wvw players.

Ahlen.7591:

…

If you truly believe that Zerk is the ‘lesser’ skilled between the two types, then we can’t really have a discussion. That is so far removed from reality that I cannot even comprehend how someone could think that.

You have hopefully seen the video of the tank specs doing Arah, without ever evade rolling? This is somehow more skillful than Zerk specs clever use of evades, and other defenses to avoid damage?

Facetanking is more skillful now than timing evasion?

I dont’ even….

As he has said in the post and repeated throughout this thread, he went from the assumption of equally skilled players. I don’t think you can really disagree that, once you have mastered the basics of dodging (and ‘active-defense’ in general), you will be ‘safer’ in a full zerker team than in anywhere else, as you will need to ‘skillfully time evasion’ for a shorter period of time.

And that video… afaik, these guys routinely 2-3 man Arah. So now they slapped on some tanky gear and traits, disabled their dodge, 5-manned it and did ok… What’s that even supposed to prove? One could just as well say that dodge+zerker gear is apparently worth 2 to 3 people… Yeah, seems balanced, no problem to see here…

Vox Hollow.2736:

Blood doesn’t have any burden of proof to describe why the DPS meta is a problem, because Anet flat-out said they were treating it that way. If you’ve got an issue with that concept, don’t shoot the messenger.

You assume, I believe incorrectly, that OP’s problem statement and Anet’s problem statement are aligned while there is still fresh debate about where the game should stand and while Anet’s problem statement remains quite vague.

OP said the game should stand at play how you want and therefore zerk meta is a problem. Anet said zerk meta is a problem. You have no idea where they might think the game should stand – perhaps they believe, as Nike does, that other DPS playstyles should have a better shot at being meta in the risk v reward paradigm.

Since there is ambiguity involved, burden of proof does rest with OP to defend his vision of the game, the problems, and the proposed solutions.

Arvid.3829:

you will be ‘safer’ in a full zerker team than in anywhere else, as you will need to ‘skillfully time evasion’ for a shorter period of time.

so you are saying not timing or even better, not using evasion at all because you dont have to, is more skillful?

NoTrigger.8396:

Arvid.3829:

you will be ‘safer’ in a full zerker team than in anywhere else, as you will need to ‘skillfully time evasion’ for a shorter period of time.

so you are saying not timing or even better, not using evasion at all because you dont have to, is more skillful?

Are you serious? Do you even read?

I’m saying if you don’t need toughness+vitality because you dodge/block/evade everything anyway you will be a lot better off with zerker. How is that not clear?

NoTrigger.8396:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Ahlen.7591:

Besides, this is a purely PVE discussion, what does sPVP or WvW have to do with it?

Because PvP and WvW prove that defensive geared builds require as much player’s skill as offensive builds do to pull it of.

Which again points towards the ineffective PvE enemy design.

defensive gear is fine in wvw and pvp. but that doesnt mean using defensive gear in pve needs any skill.

and this is how bad pve players are in wvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCaEGzBkEuo
how can he even win 1vsx in wvw after playing PvE and berserker for so long?

+ PvE monsters are probably smarter and better compared to the majority of wvw players.

So, you find a video of a single condition necro (who’s moves and video comments suggest he is no stranger to PvP, even if WvW isn’t his norm) fighting a number of people that lack condition cleanse to prove that PvE Berserker’s are all skilled? Anyone else see an issue with this logic?

Arvid.3829:

NoTrigger.8396:

Arvid.3829:

you will be ‘safer’ in a full zerker team than in anywhere else, as you will need to ‘skillfully time evasion’ for a shorter period of time.

so you are saying not timing or even better, not using evasion at all because you dont have to, is more skillful?

Are you serious? Do you even read?

I’m saying if you don’t need toughness+vitality because you dodge/block/evade everything anyway you will be a lot better off with zerker. How is that not clear?

The guy made a flame thread against tank/heal as a reaction against the incoming measures against berserker. He didn’t think about any of my arguments in his thread either. Just ignore him, he’s a troll.

How are you allowed to be more right than others? You lack rationality and common sense.
And your replies were answered.

Sirendor.1394:

Arvid.3829:

NoTrigger.8396:

Arvid.3829:

you will be ‘safer’ in a full zerker team than in anywhere else, as you will need to ‘skillfully time evasion’ for a shorter period of time.

so you are saying not timing or even better, not using evasion at all because you dont have to, is more skillful?

Are you serious? Do you even read?

I’m saying if you don’t need toughness+vitality because you dodge/block/evade everything anyway you will be a lot better off with zerker. How is that not clear?

The guy made a flame thread against tank/heal as a reaction against the incoming measures against berserker. He didn’t think about any of my arguments in his thread either. Just ignore him, he’s a troll.

just to clarify:
a dev said monsters in the upcoming releases will be weaker to conditions.
if thats the only thing that will change im gonna laugh so loud in your face.

your arguments were answered.
and my thread wasnt a flame thread, it was a serious thread posted for feedback in a respectful, constructive manner.

the thing is, all you people who refuse to look at the bigger picture claim “berserker is ez mode and needs to be nerfed”

tell me why we shouldnt nerf tank/healing gear when it takes away the core mechanic of the games combat system, dodge.
tell me why we shouldnt nerf tank/healing gear when you dont even have to dodge and can ignore all the big hits.

and tell me how playing tanky takes more skill than berserker?

you envy good berserker players because their reward/time is higher than yours.
thats the only reason why you want to nerf berserker.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ANet has actually stated several times that they want a “new” trinity of “support, control, and damage.” The difference is that, unlike in other MMO’s, these roles are not restricted to particular classes. Any character can fulfill any of these roles, or even combine them (though specialization yields better results). That is how the game was intended and where the whole “play how you want” philosophy comes from.

This is completely incorrect. Anet said they wanted all characters to do all things at the same time, and NOT specialize. Specialization does NOT yield, nor did anet intend it to yield, superior results. Distributed share of responsibilities and superior coordination thereof yields superior results, as it was intended.

And again, “roles” are determined by weapons, skills, and most importantly, traits. The gear you choose has nothing to do with your “role” and everything to do with how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever game type you plan to do.

Specialization yielding better results may not have been their aim (hence the parenthetical note regarding it), but it is an undeniable fact: Specialists yield better results than generalists. This is pretty much impossible to change. To do so would result in one overbearing build that does everything better than anyone else. That is the only way it can occour where specialists don’t yield better results. This isn’t even an issue in GW2. The issue is that everyone specializing in the exact same thing yields the best results.

Distributed share of responsibilities is not anti-specialist either. It means you have people specializing in different things with some overlap. The point of the Dodge and locked healing skill slot were so that the basic functions that everyone needs (defense against big hits, especially the one-shots from bosses, and healing back the damage they do take) don’t require someone else to do it for them. It was made to work with the fact that you can’t always get the perfectly balanced party, and relying on a party for open-world content is stupid.

A varied group of specialists, ideally, would be the strongest composition. We already see it in PvP, as you have specific roles people fulfill. The difference between GW2 and other MMO’s is that those roles can be filled by members of any class (maybe not well, such as a bunker Thief, but it is possible). In PvE, this isn’t the case. If you don’t specialize in DPS, you don’t actually have a role. Increasing the risk related to going pure glass cannon would make the other setups significantly more important and encourage diversity in groups.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I would like to say that we really appreciate posts with reason, well thought out points, and that inspire discussion. The OP post hits all these points and then some. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this post. I know the Skills and balance team has looked into the balance of all stat combos recently specially Berserker. I will let them give more details as that is their project, but I just wanted to step in and stay thanks to everyone (specially Blood Red Arachnid).

Though I do agree that the OP’s post was well thought out and constructive, I’d have to point out (yet again), that it’s UNTRUE. As has been demonstrated in another topic, defensive gear setups are nowhere near disadvantaged as compared to berserker in terms of survivability and in these terms, the game is balanced.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0kDnswWyjY (leaving the proof of tanky gear being good enough to get players through high level content without any active defenses)

quote: Zerker is not the problem – nor was it ever the problem.
The problem is some people’s inability to find and team up with likeminded individuals and their opinion that makes them feel entitled to be taken on runs with people that don’t want them there.

You would blame people not using zerker as the source of the problem? Are you brain damaged? The problem is that people using alternative build to pure damage should actualy be on par with pure damage build in therm of dungeon effectiveness. I shoudlnt have to run my zerker warrior just so i can get my minion master necromancer a full fractal set, neither should a player be forced to run pure dps to do lvl 40s+ fractals. You talk about likeminded individuals but in the end if those guys want to have some damage in their party to make a balanced team theil have a hard time getting it because all those zerkers are going into 5 zerk teams.

Running control and support in a party should be as rewarding on the effectiveness level as running full zerker and it should even actualy be recommandable over running full damage teams. Slower fight should be easyer fight for the concerned people not the reverse. If i sacrifice my melee damage for ranged damage i should actualy have a huge increase in survivability instead i actualy get to die at the same rate because bosses 2 to 1 shot you no mather if you are at range or not, ranged attack damage from boss should be halved while melee damage should be doubled or kept as it is now as to put an incentive to run builds with ranged weaponry (wich btway is realy looked down at right now). If damage from boss at range was halved versus melee damage wed actualy have a real reason to fight at range instead of melee.

kyubi when will you understand that gw2 has no trinity and support/cc is provided via traits and utilities?

full berserker groups support each other as much as full hulk groups do.
there is no healer and no tank in this game.

accept it please.

NoTrigger.8396:

you envy good berserker players because their reward/time is higher than yours.
thats the only reason why you want to nerf berserker.
because you cannot accept the fact that you are bad.

I know I shouldn’t go into this, but anyway…

I actually play both zerker and non-zerker specs fairly regularly, and believe it or not I’m not bad enough for either one of them. :P The biggest gripe I have with the ‘zerker meta’ (not actually talking about the stats here, but about the type of play that they are generally associated with) is that it is destroying one of the 2 approaches to dungeon running that I distinguish. Basically, you have ‘normal’ runs and ‘speed’ runs, and I truly believe that both are useful (both cater to a different audience) and deserve to exist.

I still remember the first time I did CoE p2 as a normal run, where Subject Alpha has 2 aoe’s that look very much alike except in one you are safe in the middle circle and the other you are safe in the outer circle (I wonder how many people still know this even exists). You have to look closely at the slight differences in animation to see what you have to do now. It was/is honestly very cool and unique in the game. Later, I needed some armor from CoE, so to get the rewards quickly I did a lot of CoE speedruns. It’s a very different (and I would dare say easier) experience and sort of fun as well, except every encounter with Subject Alpha is basically a quick time event: dps, dps, dps, red circle, 1, 2, dodge and repeat… It’s getting old pretty fast. And it’s like this in every dungeon pretty much: you either do a normal run and encounter some fairly unique situations, or you do a speed run and reduce everything to the same ‘stack-buff-dps-dodge’ but get rewards faster.

Up to there, there isn’t really an issue. What the problem, to me, really is is that the disparity between speed runs and normal runs is so large, that more and more people are dragged into doing only speed runs. This has resulted in a (seemingly) very toxic environment where more and more people are pushed into this playstyle where all you ever do is speed runs. Meanwhile, everyone that enjoys playing differently (cause guess what, some of us actually play a dungeon to you know… play a dungeon; if I wanted to be done asap I’d be better off not starting) is ridiculed for being bads and what not.

So, if addressing the (too) large disparity between the 2 types of play brings back a certain balance between them, then I’m all for it.

but cant you create your own groups?
i mean there are people looking for berserker only.
if you dont like it why dont you simply make your own groups with your own requirements?

i dont understand where the problem is.

the main problem you describe, and i believe it is a problem, is not because of the gear or stats.

its because arenanet failed to deliver fun and challenging encounters.

speedrunners are playing dungeons too.
the difference is that good speedrunners dont do it for the money. they do it because they like seeing high damage numbers and efficiency.
and they have to look at alphas aoe too. because if they dont, they will end up dead.

1. support is party buff this has no link to healing and a guardian running anti movement wall or an enginer with regeneration and net turret or elixir should actualy be more rewarded then this. In this fashion think of us not as healer but as bards and war drummers buffing up the party and inspiring the team to greater ends.

2. Control is the ability to keep mob disabled. Lots of you pretend to do controls but you dont actualy run pure control build, A staff minion master who spam fear stun and keep mob on his minion and a hammer warrior with physical utility mass knockdowning pushing CCing and stunning mob are form of control. While they stunned or busy how can the mobs hit you to begin with?

3. Damage is the third role wich fix the gap by killing the disabled mobs while behing buffed up by the supporting unit.

Of course theres a way to actualy run a little of the 3 on your character but going full support or full control should be as rewarding as going full damage.

This isnt the holy trinity of healer-tank-dps Anet wanted to abolish the holy trinity because this ruined the actual fun in fights but they never intended the game to become a dps fest based on how quick you can destroy mobs. They wanted us to fight inteligently mixing up effect and working togueter as a party to reach the end. While the dodge is a welcome sight we shouldnt rely on it that much for our survival, maybe the actual solution to the berserker build would be to nerf dodging by splitting the energy bar in half therefore making you take a hit from time to time.

While i agree it takes lot of skill to dodge you shouldnt be able to Matrix-like survive fight just because your able to dodge every single thing the boss throw at you. With less endurance you have to start thinking a little about your survivability, maybe bring a few cooldown reduce personnal dps in favor of utilities that keep you alive. Maybe the actual solution is to definitively nerf dodging. Now that i think of it less dodge wouldnt punish the lesser player as much as the high end player who dodge everything and would be prety much equitable to everyone including build with less damage wich relies more on gimmick and survivability.

Arvid.3829:

I still remember the first time I did CoE p2 as a normal run, where Subject Alpha has 2 aoe’s that look very much alike except in one you are safe in the middle circle and the other you are safe in the outer circle (I wonder how many people still know this even exists). You have to look closely at the slight differences in animation to see what you have to do now. It was/is honestly very cool and unique in the game. Later, I needed some armor from CoE, so to get the rewards quickly I did a lot of CoE speedruns. It’s a very different (and I would dare say easier) experience and sort of fun as well, except every encounter with Subject Alpha is basically a quick time event: dps, dps, dps, red circle, 1, 2, dodge and repeat… It’s getting old pretty fast. And it’s like this in every dungeon pretty much: you either do a normal run and encounter some fairly unique situations, or you do a speed run and reduce everything to the same ‘stack-buff-dps-dodge’ but get rewards faster.

Meh, you think we stack that fight because it’s faster? Wrong. We stack it because it’s much much safer that way. Alpha creates a random AoE around every player. When people are spread all over the room and moving around, it is a mess of multiple overlapping circles and you never know where you are. You decide you can stay in the middle of this AoE and get killed because you were also inside a second circle.

When all 5 players are in melee range, the fighting arena is kept clean and you just have to dodge all. This makes the fight safer because you don’t have a complex though process on if you have to dodge or not, on if this spot is safe, or this one.

Stacking is not meant to maximize DPS in the first place but to bring order to a fight with no clear aggro rules. The boss won’t run away to some ranged player because all his targets are up his face. And since the game tuning is made so that all melee players can survive because, play of you want, then it means you can go 5 melee and survive too.

Bonus points : melee damage is higher than ranged damage. Well it’s also much more dangerous too.

kyubi.3620:

Of course theres a way to actualy run a little of the 3 on your character but going full support or full control should be as rewarding as going full damage.

this is because gw2 doesnt have a trinity. every player should bring 3 things to the group, support, damage and control.

in full dps groups every single player does all 3 things at the same time instead of focusing on 1 of them.

in fact, focusing on only one thing means trinity.

thats the design of guild wars 2.

The design of guild wars 2 is flawed on a that point though : control is useless because bosses are mostly immune and ANet doesn’t want to make a fight were you are required to constantly burn a boss defiant stacks it seems.

All control is good for is trash mobs. Trash mobs you can skip. Trash mobs you can kill without control.

Silferas.3841:

Though I do agree that the OP’s post was well thought out and constructive, I’d have to point out (yet again), that it’s UNTRUE. As has been demonstrated in another topic, defensive gear setups are nowhere near disadvantaged as compared to berserker in terms of survivability and in these terms, the game is balanced.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0kDnswWyjY (leaving the proof of tanky gear being good enough to get players through high level content without any active defenses)

Except there are a lot of active defenses in those videos – all those blocks and reflections sure don’t depend on “tanky gear”. And neither the warriors’ sustain or battle standard, or the mitigative abilities provided by the guardian (like protection).
They may not have used dodges, but half the party had a block+reflection with riposte (that would end with a melee hit, thus usable during all the ranged barrages), as well as blocks and, assuming the elementalist is using the same build from another video, area blocks and party-shared reflections as well via traited auras.
The whole premise of “not using dodges” doesn’t even make sense for the argument – they don’t depend on stats after all, so they can be used indipendently of the gear (as the skills mentioned above).

It doesn’t prove anything, basically. Assuming they weren’t aiming to showcase why warriors and guardians are the meta in pve.

What about nerfing endurance regeneration on all class and make it so that zerk can no longuer rely on endurence regeneration alone to survive?

NoTrigger.8396:

but cant you create your own groups?
i mean there are people looking for berserker only.
if you dont like it why dont you simply make your own groups with your own requirements?

i dont understand where the problem is.

Sure you can, but surely you don’t think speedruns should be the intended way to play a dungeon? Off course they should exist, but surely they are supposed to be for skilled players and not the norm? Isn’t there a problem when it does become the norm?

You could actually distinguish more types, like soloing. Imagine someone would figure out a way to make that fast and rewarding. And imagine that pretty much everyone starts constantly soloing dungeons and laughing at the guys that don’t. Wouldn’t that be something you’d want them to address?

@Arvid: people do dungeon speedruns because there is no new dungeon content worth doing, and the old dungeons simply get boring, so the only purpose to actually doing them turns out to be profit. What we have in terms of said content has either always been here, or offers horrible rewards for time invested (aetherpath).

I used to be a PvP only player and I always thought ANet didn’t care about us at all, but I did manage to find one community that has been neglected even more than PvPers, the dungeon runners. If dungeon content came out at least as often as PvP content (which is by no means frequent, actually I’d say the opposite), there would be the variety you ask for, and there would be people doing the “normal” runs (simply because there would be no speedrun strategies devised for the new dungeons).

This all boils down to lack of content, rather than imbalance in gear stats. People in berserker gear still get one-shot in dungeons. Have you tried doing the Spider Queen in AC with a bunch of people with 300 AP? They get obliterated even if they try to do it all the speedrun way, because they lack the knowledge of the dungeon and bosses, and therefore can’t handle it with DPS builds. That IS BALANCED. But it’s way too worn out by those of us who do it regularly, therefore it might look to an observer like imbalanced.

Yet again I will say, all of the problems discussed are problems caused by lack of new challenging dungeon content. Yes, I know people will argue that there is living story and people still run it all with zerker, but that’s because living story keeps the scrubs playing the game, it needs to be braindead easy for people to keep playing. Dungeons on the other hand don’t have to be such. They can be challenging, and they should be, maybe even would be if any came out…

kyubi.3620:

What about nerfing endurance regeneration on all class and make it so that zerk can no longuer rely on endurence regeneration alone to survive?

why do you want to nerf my playstyle?
you dont like my playstyle? ok, nobody is forcing you to play the same way.

but stop trying to nerf my fun, when im not trying to nerf yours.

and sure go ahead and nerf my endurance regen, i will use 2 energy sigils instead.

the only reason why you want to nerf berserker is because you are either too bad to play it or you simply dont like it.
and no matter why, you have no right to nerf my playstyle.

stop trying to change this game to trinity wars 2.

You nerf endurance regen and u make necro even more useless.

Arvid.3829:

NoTrigger.8396:

but cant you create your own groups?
i mean there are people looking for berserker only.
if you dont like it why dont you simply make your own groups with your own requirements?

i dont understand where the problem is.

Sure you can, but surely you don’t think speedruns should be the intended way to play a dungeon? Off course they should exist, but surely they are supposed to be for skilled players and not the norm? Isn’t there a problem when does become the norm?

You could actually distinguish more types, like soloing. Imagine someone would figure out a way to make that fast and rewarding. And imagine that pretty much everyone starts constantly soloing dungeons and laughing at the guys that don’t. Wouldn’t that be something you’d want them to address?

9/10 lfg solo sellers already found a way of doing it fast and easy.
its called exploiting and swimming around under dungeons.

ive sent arenanet 90 screenshots and videos of the exploits.
but they dont give a kitten.

and yes, speedruns are becoming the norm. why is that?
because the content is too easy.

Arvid.3829:

Sure you can, but surely you don’t think speedruns should be the intended way to play a dungeon? Off course they should exist, but surely they are supposed to be for skilled players and not the norm? Isn’t there a problem when it does become the norm?

There’s a lot of room between a casual dungeon run and a speed run aiming at some world record.

As a casual dungeon runner, I know what I enjoy the best between a 1 hour run and a 20 minute run.

Your build is your weapons, utility skills and your traits.

Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you anticipate taking during whatever content you’re running.

Therefore Zerker gear does not “nullify” any “variety” or any “builds.” Builds are independent of gear, you can run a dps build in Soldier’s gear or a support build in Zerker gear.

If Zerker is optimal for PVE content that is because of players anticipating that they will not take significant damage during the PVE content and not some feature of Zerker.

stof.9341:

Meh, you think we stack that fight because it’s faster? Wrong.

No, where did I say that?

stof.9341:

Bonus points : melee damage is higher than ranged damage. Well it’s also much more dangerous too.

Except it isn’t:

Meh, you think we stack that fight because it’s faster? Wrong. We stack it because it’s much much safer that way.

And for a large part, that is the core of the disparity: it isn’t so much the stats itself, but the amount of synergy that is created between a full offense party while at the same time lowering the risk. This completely screws up any balance with more defensive/control/support oriented specs. The reason the risk is lowered is because you significantly shorten encounters, while never truly putting yourself in more danger (because active defense is so powerful).

Reduce endurance gain of all party member by half and lets see how well these so called pro ’’dodge’’ lupicus. While i agree dodge is a part of the game, you shouldnt be able to clear just any content by dodging 100% of the time with no armor at all. Reducing global endurance gain for everyone would be a big incentive to running ranged weapon and using less glassy build in the first place or at least it would make it risky for real for all those melee berserkers.

Arvid.3829:

NoTrigger.8396:

but cant you create your own groups?
i mean there are people looking for berserker only.
if you dont like it why dont you simply make your own groups with your own requirements?

i dont understand where the problem is.

Sure you can, but surely you don’t think speedruns should be the intended way to play a dungeon? Off course they should exist, but surely they are supposed to be for skilled players and not the norm? Isn’t there a problem when it does become the norm?

You could actually distinguish more types, like soloing. Imagine someone would figure out a way to make that fast and rewarding. And imagine that pretty much everyone starts constantly soloing dungeons and laughing at the guys that don’t. Wouldn’t that be something you’d want them to address?

Speed runs absolutely should be an intended way of doing dungeons unless you are trying to punish min/max dedicated groups who are trying to find some interest in running the same content for the 9000th time.

Get a group of non skilled zerkers or zerks in a mixed comp group and see how effectively they speed run. The fact of the matter is that no, perfect zerk groups blitzing content is not the norm.

Dungeons are often solo’d as a challenge, or at least boss mobs within them are. I’m rubbish compared to the people posting youtube pwn videos and even i’ve managed it (as zerk and non zerk). Does that mean the specific solo set ups used should be nerfed as well because I couldn’t do it with a totally random build?

The problem here is 90% perception. “Omg everyone else is in zerkers and clearing content 20x faster than me like those guys on youtube and as such I wont bother doing anything and instead moan on the forums”.

Note too that Zerker is encouraged by world boss DPS timers.

DPS timers make complete sense in MMO’s where devs wish to limit progression towards those who have managed to acquire high dps gear in the current tier of content.

However, boss timers make ZERO sense in GW2 where you can jump into Zerker gear and do max damage straight away. It only encourages using Zerker or finding a lot more people to attend.

Seriously, you would need a lot more people to do Teq if half the attendees wore non-zerker gear.