Guild Wars 2

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

And Thieves are supposed to use their Stealth to set up attacks, not to run away and hide like a scared child.

Is that what stealth is designed for? Do you have any proof of this or are you simply representing your opinion as fact? All I know is I linked dev quotes stating that it is a fact that thieves are intended to have more mobility then Warriors. Unless you have an actual dev quote or a fact, or even reasonable evidence, all your doing is spinning your wheels.

Honestly, this angle of “I have no actual facts or evidence, but your wrong cause I said so” argument just works against you, as well as removes your credibility in general.

I mean the facts and evidence are all there that make this entire “thief” angle of a warriors argument a bit laughable if you ask me. It is as if the warrior community would rather try to out smart common sense rather then offer a reasonable solution.

Seems to me like you’re saying that it’s fine for Thieves to use stealth to escape combat but it’s not OK for a Warrior to use their speed to do the same thing. Not many Warriors run GS + Sword/Warhorn, most only have a GS. It is not that hard to catch a Warrior with just a GS in the short term, especially if they used their utilities in the battle before hand. You can actually SEE that the Warrior is running away.

Meanwhile, I thief with D/P can use their weapon set to stealth, head in a random direction, drop Shadow Refugee, and never be seen again if they don’t want to. What makes this more useful than just running is that you can hang around and pick someone off or if it’s a big fight just heal up because no one will be directly targeting you. I’ve stunned Thieves in SR many times but unless I kill them it doesn’t matter because they can shadow step away. Even if I do down them they can get stealthed again while downed then stack it with the downed stealth and simply revive and repeat the whole process over.

Why is this OK but it’s not for Warrior to have the ability to use their gap closers are a means to escape? The double standard you have is obvious. I for one would take knowing that someone is running away from me over not knowing if I’m going to get backstabbed sometime withing the next 10+ seconds any day. I don’t mind stealth existing but if they gain no movement penalty and getting hit doesn’t reveal them then you should not be able to use it for extended periods of time. I’m actually OK with the Black powder + HS combo because I know exactly how long they have to attack me, but combined with Shadow Refugee it becomes a guessing game that you can’t counterplay outside of some very specific situations like using Fear Me to force them out of the field.

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

And Thieves are supposed to use their Stealth to set up attacks, not to run away and hide like a scared child.

Is that what stealth is designed for? Do you have any proof of this or are you simply representing your opinion as fact? All I know is I linked dev quotes stating that it is a fact that thieves are intended to have more mobility then Warriors. Unless you have an actual dev quote or a fact, or even reasonable evidence, all your doing is spinning your wheels.

Honestly, this angle of “I have no actual facts or evidence, but your wrong cause I said so” argument just works against you, as well as removes your credibility in general.

I mean the facts and evidence are all there that make this entire “thief” angle of a warriors argument a bit laughable if you ask me. It is as if the warrior community would rather try to out smart common sense rather then offer a reasonable solution.

“Is that what stealth is designed for?”
Well if you gain stealth your nº1 skill gives you a special/powerfull attack. That says a lot.

“All I know is I linked dev quotes stating that it is a fact that thieves are intended to have more mobility then Warriors”.
They have. It is called combat movement speed. (instaports)

BurrTheKing.8571:

Seems to me like you’re saying that it’s fine for Thieves to use stealth to escape combat but it’s not OK for a Warrior to use their speed to do the same thing.

I am not so much saying it, as I am showing you that it is a fact that the devs sait it and it is intended to be so in balanced design.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Not many Warriors run GS + Sword/Warhorn, most only have a GS.

You mean you believe not many do. Because I find it hard to beleive you have had experience with all 50+ servers to even have the slightest experience with what they all do. I can tell you I see roamers and small havoc’s us it all the time with my experience. I am on JQ so I see mostly BG and TC alot. My experience there says different then yours on your level, just sayin.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Meanwhile, I thief with D/P can use their weapon set to stealth, head in a random direction, drop Shadow Refugee, and never be seen again if they don’t want to. What makes this more useful than just running is that you can hang around and pick someone off or if it’s a big fight just heal up because no one will be directly targeting you. I’ve stunned Thieves in SR many times but unless I kill them it doesn’t matter because they can shadow step away. Even if I do down them they can get stealthed again while downed then stack it with the downed stealth and simply revive and repeat the whole process over.

You are spending 90% of your time attacking thieves, and almost none, offering arguments for warriors unnecessary mobility. It seems clear you are using this as a conduit to vent hate about thieves, not offer reason for warriors.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Why is this OK but it’s not for Warrior to have the ability to use their gap closers are a means to escape? The double standard you have is obvious.

It is? so They have the highest armor pool? They have the highest Hp pool? They have the warriors ability to cleanse 3 conditions every 10s? That is crazy. And here I was, all this time, believing they had stealth because they had the lower armor, Hit points, lesser condition removal.

Let me ask you this, when did you level your thief? How much time in WvW for example, do you have on it compared to your warrior?

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that warrior mobility is " unnecessary" ? Is this also one of the " facts " you like talking so much about or is it simply your opinion?

If it is your opinion then please hold yourself to the same standards you demand of others and keep subjective views to yourself.
If it is fact then please provide a source material for your statement.

Also warriors can’t cleanse 3 conditions every 10 seconds. They have to land their F1 skill first.
And you’ll say longbow f1 is the solution -but with longbow on where’s the amazing mobility you speak of?
You’ve got only average mobility with either S+WH or GS on.

I’m sorry…unnecessary mobility!? In any game like this the melee weapon users that don’t have teleports or stealth NEED a way to close the gap because otherwise the kiting classes will ALWAYS beat them. This is exactly why Warrior received the aforementioned condi mitigation because without them even with the mobility they could never keep up because it was so easy to cripple/immob/chill them to death.

I mentioned Thieves because that is what you were comparing to to. I actually have very little problem killing D/P thieves with Mace/Shield + GS because all you have to do is wait around 2 seconds after they stealth and use Counterblow to make the backstab miss. Just make them use their teleports then use Skull Crack + 100b while Zerker stance is up and you have yourself one dead thief. My only issue with them is that they aren’t fun to fight since you don’t see them most of the time.

I’m loving your superiority complex. I highly doubt you’ve experienced all 50+ servers as well. The majority of complaints I hear about Warriors is Hammer trains, you can’t have a Hammer trains and a mobility Warrior at the same time. I’m sure some groups run raiding parties with GS+Sword. If these groups are beating other small groups it’s because they’re much better. The build has only one combo to be afraid of and that’s Flurry + 100b. Only other thing to look out for is Final Thrust other than that the build isn’t better at much more than moving around and slapping yaks. That’s important but hardly something to totally hamper their mobility over.

You also really love to point out the ability to cleanse 3 conditions every 10 seconds, but to do so consistently would require the use of a Bow, which means dropping the Sword. The Warhorn does have the ability to get rid of movement impairing conditions but if you want to trait for it you have to go into the Tactics line which means sacrificing a lot of damage.

You also pointed out all of Warrior’s strengths but left out the fact that they lack: frequent access to protection/Aegis, Stealth, clones, evade spam (one skill on one weapon doesn’t count), Death Shroud, Blinds (again, only 1 skill on one weapon), Teleports, the list goes on and on. Reduce the armor, health, or healing and Warrior becomes totally worthless. The class is based around being the middle of the road class as far as what it’s good at. It can hit hard but can’t spike as well as a Thief, it’s tough but Guardians are better at prolonged sustain, they can even do conditions but don’t the the AoE abilities of Necros and Engis. Most good Warrior builds are good at multiple things but not amazing at any one of them. GS + Sword is good at one thing, mobility. It doesn’t have AoE stunning ability, AoE fire fields, or a 3 sec long stun.

There is not one build that gives the reliable 3 condi cleanse, has unmatchable mobility, and high control all in one build. You can get a couple in a build but there will always be something lacking. I like Mace/Shield+GS but the lack of a bow means conditions can overwhelm me if you aren’t foolish and waste you best condis while Zerker stance is up. I also like both Sword + Bow and GS + Bow but both are really weak to high spike damage builds. I play condi War every now and then but while it’s strong 1v1 Necros and Engi still do condis better because they’re AoE.

You don’t seem to grasp how precarious Warror’s situation is. It’s one poorly thought out nerf away from being worthless. ANet seems to recognize this for the most part because they’re just chipping away instead of using a mallet.

EDIT: Harper you’re much better at saying the same things I wanna say but in about a page less text :P.

I don’t see the need to bring in the fact that warriors can’t have certain defense boons when they don’t need it to survive. The reason mobility comes into play is because everyone keeps mentioning that warriors need it to keep up with their enemy, that’s great, but they can turn around and use it to disengage. Going along with the philosophy of the warrior (here comes another argument on that) that mobility was “intended” to stick to their target and not flee from it. The class design as a warrior was to stay in melee range, correct? Warriors excel at melee, correct? Then why is it that their skills are being used for exactly the opposite? Why are warriors running away when they have absolutely amazing staying power?

Yes, those mobility skills were present pre-buff but the buffs also made those mobility skills even stronger because of dogged march/passive regen/stance immunities/overall higher toughness allowed warriors to escape and reset fights with an extremely high success rate.

ReesesPBC.4603:

I don’t see the need to bring in the fact that warriors can’t have certain defense boons when they don’t need it to survive. The reason mobility comes into play is because everyone keeps mentioning that warriors need it to keep up with their enemy, that’s great, but they can turn around and use it to disengage. Going along with the philosophy of the warrior (here comes another argument on that) that mobility was “intended” to stick to their target and not flee from it. The class design as a warrior was to stay in melee range, correct? Warriors excel at melee, correct? Then why is it that their skills are being used for exactly the opposite? Why are warriors running away when they have absolutely amazing staying power?

Yes, those mobility skills were present pre-buff but the buffs also made those mobility skills even stronger because of dogged march/passive regen/stance immunities/overall higher toughness allowed warriors to escape and reset fights with an extremely high success rate.

The only change for a mobility build at all since launch was Regeneration on Dogged March and the immunities should have been used in the fight and not be up while escaping right?

ReesesPBC.4603:

I don’t see the need to bring in the fact that warriors can’t have certain defense boons when they don’t need it to survive. The reason mobility comes into play is because everyone keeps mentioning that warriors need it to keep up with their enemy, that’s great, but they can turn around and use it to disengage. Going along with the philosophy of the warrior (here comes another argument on that) that mobility was “intended” to stick to their target and not flee from it. The class design as a warrior was to stay in melee range, correct? Warriors excel at melee, correct? Then why is it that their skills are being used for exactly the opposite? Why are warriors running away when they have absolutely amazing staying power?

Yes, those mobility skills were present pre-buff but the buffs also made those mobility skills even stronger because of dogged march/passive regen/stance immunities/overall higher toughness allowed warriors to escape and reset fights with an extremely high success rate.

How would you change it? People already hate what ANet did to RTL so it’s not like they’re going to do the same to Rush. Making the skills require a target is a step back into the dark ages of MMO combat and takes freedom away from the player.

I honestly don’t think the mobility is that imbalanced, if they just have a GS they are catachable and if they have GS+S then they have given up tons of (imo) better options.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Seriously Anet…..

GS + Sword/Warhorn + Bull’s Charge = Unstoppable.

how the hell does heavy armor class outruns thief and ele???

people says GS + Sword/warhorn does kitten damage but its wrong its just the other weapons do more damage it doesnt mean u cant kill anyone. still does massive damage + super bursty mobility.

Imagine u wearing maybe 500g light armor and other person wears 40kg heavy armor and who do u think will run fast??

and warrior got everything daze/stun/damage/armor/hp/mobility

seriously i’ve been playing my guardian for like the whole time and i played warrior for like 100 hours and feel like my guardian is completely useless…

warriors can survive much better than guardian and whoever says warriors are weak against cc, every class are weak to cc and warrior has berserk stance/endure pain / balance stance etc way more + highest hp/high armor maintaining high damage + got all the stuns/block massive hp regen (will get nerfed soon but wont be any huge difference) and crazy mobility that outruns every single classess..

tbh i think warrior is way more op than thief like i can stomp most of thieves 90% of the time except maybe some extremely well playing d/p thief with perma blind and condi necro. other than that i can stomp most of classess without taking any skills.

before anet nerf thieves on any they should nerf warrior first and buff guardians

I will respond to this post as I do not feel like reading the posts below. So if what I say has already been said then I apologize.

with the weapon setup you do not get stun or daze so those points are invalid. Yes this build is almost impossible to catch, but they don’t DO anything. Unless you are playing WvW they don’t contribute anything at all to the PvP scene. and even in WvW they can’t kill anyone. They are basically faster thieves without stealth.

The only way this build does “Massive” damage is with 100 blades with the Greatsword. Therefore they are incredibly easy to predict.

I am not saying this build needs to exist. It’s almost as cancerous as dagger/pistol thief with 30 in shadow arts. But it is there and ArenaNet will get around to it when they have time. I apologize but your post is filled with misinformation. It’s almost nauseating.

BurrTheKing.8571:

ReesesPBC.4603:

I don’t see the need to bring in the fact that warriors can’t have certain defense boons when they don’t need it to survive. The reason mobility comes into play is because everyone keeps mentioning that warriors need it to keep up with their enemy, that’s great, but they can turn around and use it to disengage. Going along with the philosophy of the warrior (here comes another argument on that) that mobility was “intended” to stick to their target and not flee from it. The class design as a warrior was to stay in melee range, correct? Warriors excel at melee, correct? Then why is it that their skills are being used for exactly the opposite? Why are warriors running away when they have absolutely amazing staying power?

Yes, those mobility skills were present pre-buff but the buffs also made those mobility skills even stronger because of dogged march/passive regen/stance immunities/overall higher toughness allowed warriors to escape and reset fights with an extremely high success rate.

How would you change it? People already hate what ANet did to RTL so it’s not like they’re going to do the same to Rush. Making the skills require a target is a step back into the dark ages of MMO combat and takes freedom away from the player.

I honestly don’t think the mobility is that imbalanced, if they just have a GS they are catachable and if they have GS+S then they have given up tons of (imo) better options.

Why not just apply the same mechanic as say a mesmer. You can’t use rush or bulls rush without a target. You could still aim at an npc or random mob in WvW but it would be eradicated in PvP, as well as severely hampering it’s effectiveness in WvW.

And this way you wouldn’t have to mess with the skill directly.

Like you guys mentioned, you’re right the mobility alone probably wasn’t so bad before (ala bulls rush yolo wars) since it was there before too but from what i remember what people fought for was more survivability instead of being just a carry in fights. Wars used to use the hit and run tactics but now they don’t need to. Now that wars have that passive highly increased survival rate those same mobility skills from before are now icing on the cake. I’m not saying warriors don’t need mobility at all, they need it to engage, but disengaging so easily is just ridiculous when it comes to a class that excels at in your face range.

All I would suggest is that they make it like RTL in it’s pros and cons (for rush, being able to actually hit something) because as it stands its just seems like blatant prejudice to do one thing to one class and not to another with similar skills. But there is more depth to the problem then one skill and that’s what a dev team needs to revaluate.

Requiring a target could be another solution but we as a player base wouldn’t know until we actually tried it on a test server to see if that would be a legitimate route. On paper it sounds fair though because as a guardian 2nd main teleports are my only method of escape and if you have no ambient creatures around you are pretty much screwed.

bobomb.5209:

BurrTheKing.8571:

ReesesPBC.4603:

I don’t see the need to bring in the fact that warriors can’t have certain defense boons when they don’t need it to survive. The reason mobility comes into play is because everyone keeps mentioning that warriors need it to keep up with their enemy, that’s great, but they can turn around and use it to disengage. Going along with the philosophy of the warrior (here comes another argument on that) that mobility was “intended” to stick to their target and not flee from it. The class design as a warrior was to stay in melee range, correct? Warriors excel at melee, correct? Then why is it that their skills are being used for exactly the opposite? Why are warriors running away when they have absolutely amazing staying power?

Yes, those mobility skills were present pre-buff but the buffs also made those mobility skills even stronger because of dogged march/passive regen/stance immunities/overall higher toughness allowed warriors to escape and reset fights with an extremely high success rate.

How would you change it? People already hate what ANet did to RTL so it’s not like they’re going to do the same to Rush. Making the skills require a target is a step back into the dark ages of MMO combat and takes freedom away from the player.

I honestly don’t think the mobility is that imbalanced, if they just have a GS they are catachable and if they have GS+S then they have given up tons of (imo) better options.

Why not just apply the same mechanic as say a mesmer. You can’t use rush or bulls rush without a target. You could still aim at an npc or random mob in WvW but it would be eradicated in PvP, as well as severely hampering it’s effectiveness in WvW.

And this way you wouldn’t have to mess with the skill directly.

Requiring it to have a target would totally kill the feeling of freedom you have compared to other MMOs. There’s a difference between requiring a target you are teleporting to and and requiring a target to…run. Not to mention Rush likes to make you overshoot your target and miss as does Bull’s Rush so at least they have a use for getting from A to B.

I actually think certain teleport skills shouldn’t require a target but I could see that potentially being really buggy.

Then why didn’t you argue against it For other professions? Your okay for professions who have lesser defenses losing mobility but you argue for the profession with top armor and hp not to have it happen to them. Doesn’t that strike you as a bit hypocritical.

coglin.1867:

Then why didn’t you argue against it For other professions? Your okay for professions who have lesser defenses losing mobility but you argue for the profession with top armor and hp not to have it happen to them. Doesn’t that strike you as a bit hypocritical.

Nobody is discussing other professions here.
This thread was started regarding Warrior.

A bit of side info : Warrior is the class I play most and the class I know best. If I’ve posted on these forums regarding class balance I’ve only done it regarding this one class.
I’ve never asked for buffs or nerfs for other classes which I’m less familiar with – so don’t give us your high ground attitude.

I’ve ALWAYS said that if people feel that Warrior is OP they should ask for buffs for their own respective classes.
I’ve always said I feel warriors are balanced and that other classes should be brought up to be on par with them.

I’ve also supported rangers being buffed and that silly pet be done away with.

Harper.4173:

I’ve ALWAYS said that if people feel that Warrior is OP they should ask for buffs for their own respective classes.
I’ve always said I feel warriors are balanced and that other classes should be brought up to be on par with them.

I’m sorry sir but what you’ve described here is exactly the very essence of unbalanced classes.

Same topic different thread from a while back. Ironically brought up by a Thief back then too.

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Fact: Thieves have the best mobility

Fact: Warriors have the best land speed (Point A to Point B )

You cannot argue against those facts, because you are simply wrong.

You also need to understand that mobility and land speed are not the same thing.

Mobility:
- Shadowstep
- Dodge roll
- Stealth
- Flanking Strike (thief S/D)

These are things that cause quick and erratic movement whenever you want, wherever you want. They also hamper enemy melee severely, also causes the player to lose focus on you. Thieves do this the best.

Land speed:
- Swiftness (Or speed signet/trait where applicable)
- Leaps
- Charges
- (Insert an obvious one I probably forgot)

These are for covering distance only, either to get to a target, or run from a target. They always go in a straight line, and take time to get from Point A to Point B, which is very obviously telegraphed (Susceptible to daze/stun). Warriors do this the best.

You need to remember that mobility and land speed are completely different things.

Also, thieves complaining about another class resetting a fight? You honestly cannot be serious, because that’s just stupid.

A well timed Headshot or two (or scorpion wire), when these types of warriors use Savage Leap or Rush, will be their death, considering most warriors with this weapon set up will attempt to disengage at low health, it is easily predictable, so get your interrupts ready.

Sword/Warhorn + GS also sacrifices a lot of damage.:
- Rush misses its target 98.1337% of the time. (This skill is broken, the only use it serves is to run from fights and across the map)
- Sword Burst, does terrible damage outside of condition builds.
- GS Burst, no one uses this, EVER. It is garbage. (So the warriors class mechanic is essentially being wasted with this weapon set up)
- Savage Leap rarely hits, it might bring you near the target, dealing damage/cripple is purely luck.
- No real CC. (Only Immobilize from sword burst, and Leg Specialist (If the trait is picked))

Remember.. leaps and charges are always well telegraphed. Shadowsteps are never telegraphed. Players will always lose direct focus when fighting a thief, but never against a warrior, because warriors cannot stealth themselves, or instantly teleport, you can ALWAYS keep your eyes on them.

And from the same thread….

Hot Boy.7138:

Thieves complaining about someone running away to reset a fight and are upset because you can’t do anything about it… really? lol

Thirdly, any decent thief can burst speed a Warrior down before his cool downs are up. The Thief class can burst up to 3,000 units in less than 2 seconds (with only 3 skills, one of which recharges instantly that you use twice) while the Warrior (using Rush+Whirlwind+Savage Leap+Bull’s Charge) can only get up to 2,850 (and only 2,250 if Bull’s Charge is on cd).

And lastly, if you have only ever played one class and never cared to test out (play at least 50 hours +) on the other classes to test and see what they can do… you will only make a fool of yourself arguing about balance.