Guild Wars 2

Check the forum we will see 30% of nerf advises go against thieves, why?

People love to cry and whine about thieves to take attention away from the OP’ness of their own class. Since thieves have been nerfed every single patch, even for stuff that no one ever cried about like shortbow range and dancing dagger, people are starting to have a tough time finding things to nerf. Consume Ectoplasm needs a nerf?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Nerf-the-theif-steal-skill-consume-ectoplasm/first#post1440115

Stolen Whirling Axe?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-stolen-Whirling-Axe-is-OP/page/3#post3695265

How about P/P, our joke weaponset?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/p-p-thief-insane-burst/first#post3636798

I guess now, the whining has whittled down to our core mechanics like initiative and stealth. After all, what else is there left to nerf?

I really don’t know how Thieves are perceived to be OP at all. Sure their stealth makes them a little tricky and consequently they have an easier time ganking unaware or lower skill players than most classes, but other than that they are really a bit on the weak side.

Their passive defense is just about worst in game and their unique ‘defensive’ skill works better offensively than it does defensively, which contributes to their ability to gank effectively while being below average to poor at virtually everything else.

Simply because it takes a considerably higher amount of effort to outplay a thief than the thief to outplay you.

A good thief dictates the tempo of the battle like no other class can.

When he’s on you you have to react in an instant if you don’t you’ll miss your chance and you are either dead or the thief is gone.

When he stealths or shadowsteps away the fight comes to a near standstill, you could start spaming AoE or switch to ranged but you can’t be sure he won’t just reappear right next to you in an instant.

While these sudden changes in battle-tempo require the thief to play well to be effective, it requires immense skill, attention and effort to perceive them and counter the thief.

The Initiative system is a really cool mechanic. Unfortunately it is difficult to balance around, particularly when a. no other class has it, and b. the class that has it can reset.

Shinjo.6092:

People love to cry and whine about thieves to take attention away from the OP’ness of their own class. Since thieves have been nerfed every single patch, even for stuff that no one ever cried about like shortbow range and dancing dagger, people are starting to have a tough time finding things to nerf. Consume Ectoplasm needs a nerf?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Nerf-the-theif-steal-skill-consume-ectoplasm/first#post1440115

Stolen Whirling Axe?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Thief-stolen-Whirling-Axe-is-OP/page/3#post3695265

How about P/P, our joke weaponset?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/p-p-thief-insane-burst/first#post3636798

I guess now, the whining has whittled down to our core mechanics like initiative and stealth. After all, what else is there left to nerf?

People love to whine and cry because professions and most of the core combat mechanics were poorly designed. Also, you’d figure that a “aaa” game that brings in $100 million per year would do more than just talk a lot, reshuffle trait numbers and make tooltip edits. I personally feel that players who like the profession designs and combat mechanics here have low standards and/or come from the console generation.

Because even if you meet a thief that you completely roll over, there’s a very good chance they will escape. That annoys people.

If you fight a necro or guardian and you beat them, they are 200% stuffed. Most classes if you beat them have a chance to escape, but usually not. Thieves and warriors can more or less survive anything if they want to which is frustrating to the other person and causes some to see them as OP.

Everything is

Warrior is OP by numbers, Thief is broken by design, but not necessarily OP. No cooldowns, super mobility and stealth will always be complained about. And for good reason.
It just makes for unsatisfactory gameplay. *

Chokolata.1870:

It just makes for unsatisfactory gameplay. *

I think this comment somes it up the best.

I get very little enjoyment fighting a thief when roaming and they are the majority of the available fights, participating in a fight where you are just waiting for you opponent to make a mistake is not rewarding, other classes i can often find away to get upper hand, but a thief if i get an upper hand they just stealth and run away and come back 2-5min later and and try again only to run away.

With other classes if i lose i can safely assume that they are a better player then me, or i did something silly. With a thief i can not be sure whether they are a better player then me or that it was just there class the carried them.

in sPvP i have no problem with thiefs as stealth can be a hindrance, but in roaming there is no down side to stealth.

Chokolata.1870:

Warrior is OP by numbers, Thief is broken by design, but not necessarily OP. No cooldowns, super mobility and stealth will always be complained about. And for good reason.
It just makes for unsatisfactory gameplay. *

As Colin Johanson asked several times about the game, “Is it fun?”

The answer to continually dying to mechanics that have very little counter-play (and NO I do not count “spam AoE and hope you might hit something” as counter-play) has to be a resounding, “NO!!” in my opinion.

Thanks.

whats wrong with thieves?!

we exist, players from all other professions will not rest until we’re all gone.
via quitting the game or rerolling warriors, the important thing is that thieves get extinct.

they are doing a pretty good job so far tbh.

good suggestion but then it would require SKILL to play it so… it will never happen.

Fire/Air sigil + Acro Trickery is the problem. P/D Celestial is the other problem.

Those two build concepts need some shaving.

Shockwave.1230:

Fire/Air sigil + Acro Trickery is the problem. P/D Celestial is the other problem.

Those two build concepts need some shaving.

yeah, every thing else in the game is flawless, no other profession need “shaving”, just keep nerfing thieves to make every one happy.

It’s like football and politics, if there is no football every one complaints about politician, if there is football all problems vanish!

So as long as thieves are being nerfed, every thing else is “forgotten”.
Stuff like AI playing for you wile you go get a drink, warriors that can 1 shot ppl and get from A to B faster then other lighter professions, root bug, unkillable eles and so on.

I agree with those that have said fighting a Thief isn’t fun. There was a time when I thought they were “OP” but I have since learned ways to deal with them.
But that’s just it, “dealing with them.” I’m not engaging them and enjoying myself, I’m putting up with them being around because I love the rest of the game so much.

Initiative allows them to repeatedly make mistakes while having no drawbacks. They are able to stealth and reset fights almost indefinitely and can spec to be full glass while always having the upper hand over any other profession that is full glass. As someone has stated on a previous thread, they’re no fun to fight because they will always have full control over when the fight starts and when it ends. The person on the receiving end is just going to be frustrated regardless of whether they win or lose because every encounter with a Thief is a pain in the neck. They can make a dozen mistakes and still come out on top while you on the other hand have to be at the absolute top of your game.

Volrath.1473:

Shockwave.1230:

Fire/Air sigil + Acro Trickery is the problem. P/D Celestial is the other problem.

Those two build concepts need some shaving.

yeah, every thing else in the game is flawless, no other profession need “shaving”, just keep nerfing thieves to make every one happy.

It’s like football and politics, if there is no football every one complaints about politician, if there is football all problems vanish!

So as long as thieves are being nerfed, every thing else is “forgotten”.
Stuff like AI playing for you wile you go get a drink, warriors that can 1 shot ppl and get from A to B faster then other lighter professions, root bug, unkillable eles and so on.

Do not get angry those people are hurt we must give them attention to heal those self-created wounds they suffered from. Do not be like them be a better person.

Volrath.1473:

Shockwave.1230:

Fire/Air sigil + Acro Trickery is the problem. P/D Celestial is the other problem.

Those two build concepts need some shaving.

yeah, every thing else in the game is flawless, no other profession need “shaving”, just keep nerfing thieves to make every one happy.

It’s like football and politics, if there is no football every one complaints about politician, if there is football all problems vanish!

So as long as thieves are being nerfed, every thing else is “forgotten”.
Stuff like AI playing for you wile you go get a drink, warriors that can 1 shot ppl and get from A to B faster then other lighter professions, root bug, unkillable eles and so on.

FYI I main thief, and don’t play those builds specifically because I think they need nerfs.

I think other professions need nerfs too, but this thread isn’t about those.

Once you accept that solo roaming in WvW is not an equal playground and that thieves are the optimal class to play in that scene you will have a much better time of things. When was the last time you heard about groups of thieves dominating small man groups of 5 or higher? You don’t, because a lot of the effective counters and gameplay mechanics come into play which significantly hinder them.

warrior may be OP
But thief has a mechanic that makes most fight totally onesided expecially in WWW.

You can lose if you play really (really really really) bad, you win if you play good but opponent skill is not tested in the process.

“What’s wrong with thieves?”

They are simply too weak. With all the nerfing, they cannot compete with the shenanigans other classes throw around. You either gank unaware/new players or die. I switched to warr after ferocity and came back because the class is so ridiculously boring. Now I tried out power necro and triple meditation guard and i thought “holy kitten, is this how the game is supposed to be?”. Other classes get more of everything, including DPS (arguably not burst-damage). It’s quite telling that the newest “nerf teef” trend adresses their ability to flee combat. Because that’s all that is left on the class.

@marauder.

Yet no thief layer would trade that ability in Exchange for something else.
The number of stealth thieves even when other builds were effective, speaks for itself.
nuff said

LordByron.8369:

@marauder.

Yet no thief layer would trade that ability in Exchange for something else.
The number of stealth thieves even when other builds were effective, speaks for itself.
nuff said

give me a reliable source of stability, a decent condi clear, and the damage thieves deserve and you can count me in.

People complain about thieves because they can be frustrating to fight against and learning to fight against them isn’t as obvious as other classes where you can see their animations etc.

That doesn’t mean they need nerfs though…

i would argue that “Learning” to play against invisible opponent is an oxymoron.
But when you are short on arguments L2P is Always the answer.

LordByron.8369:

i would argue that “Learning” to play against invisible opponent is an oxymoron.
But when you are short on arguments L2P is Always the answer.

Thanks for proving my point.

If you took the time to play a thief for a short while, then played your normal main and dueled against one a bit… you would be able to learn quite a bit about what they do in a given situation, and how to counter them. This is a great way to help learn how to fight against any class, I highly recommend trying it.

I started out as a thief @ launch, now I hardly ever play mine, but I don’t have many probs against them unless their build counters mine (which hardly a problem with the thief). I learned. You can too.

Looking @ your other posts it seems you main an eng. If that’s right and you’re complaining about thieves… you’re doing something wrong.

MarauderShields.6830:

LordByron.8369:

@marauder.

Yet no thief layer would trade that ability in Exchange for something else.
The number of stealth thieves even when other builds were effective, speaks for itself.
nuff said

give me a reliable source of stability, a decent condi clear, and the damage thieves deserve and you can count me in.

Thief condition clear is already fantastic, and easy to get.

Aberrant.6749:

LordByron.8369:

i would argue that “Learning” to play against invisible opponent is an oxymoron.
But when you are short on arguments L2P is Always the answer.

Thanks for proving my point.

If you took the time to play a thief for a short while, then played your normal main and dueled against one a bit… you would be able to learn quite a bit about what they do in a given situation, and how to counter them. This is a great way to help learn how to fight against any class, I highly recommend trying it.

I started out as a thief @ launch, now I hardly ever play mine, but I don’t have many probs against them unless their build counters mine (which hardly a problem with the thief). I learned. You can too.

Looking @ your other posts it seems you main an eng. If that’s right and you’re complaining about thieves… you’re doing something wrong.

I’d rather say you proved mine instead.

If your opponent is able to predict you, he is either lucky or a mind reader or more easily you are being predictable.

Being predictable is the main trait of an unexperienced player and as i said it all comes from thief side.

I often remember how soulcalibur IV developers refused to put a custom mode in its ranking games because skills like invisibility (2 seconds once per round) couldn t be included in ANY serious game mode.

Having no tell, and no reaction window simply removes skill from a game.
Prediction may be part of it, pushing it too far simply comes to luck.

Not to mention that you can easily browse internet for the most ridiculous stealth skill in a game and see what you find.

Terrahero.9358:

Thief condition clear is already fantastic, and easy to get.

I suppose you haven’t read LordByrons and my posts above?
Shadow’s Embrace is ok for a class that is supposed to be weak against conditions (and far from “fantastic” when compared to Necro, Warr etc.).

Thieves may not be op but their design is total troll which understandably ticks off a lot of people.

LordByron.8369:

Aberrant.6749:

LordByron.8369:

i would argue that “Learning” to play against invisible opponent is an oxymoron.
But when you are short on arguments L2P is Always the answer.

Thanks for proving my point.

If you took the time to play a thief for a short while, then played your normal main and dueled against one a bit… you would be able to learn quite a bit about what they do in a given situation, and how to counter them. This is a great way to help learn how to fight against any class, I highly recommend trying it.

I started out as a thief @ launch, now I hardly ever play mine, but I don’t have many probs against them unless their build counters mine (which hardly a problem with the thief). I learned. You can too.

Looking @ your other posts it seems you main an eng. If that’s right and you’re complaining about thieves… you’re doing something wrong.

I’d rather say you proved mine instead.

If your opponent is able to predict you, he is either lucky or a mind reader or more easily you are being predictable.

Being predictable is the main trait of an unexperienced player and as i said it all comes from thief side.

I often remember how soulcalibur IV developers refused to put a custom mode in its ranking games because skills like invisibility (2 seconds once per round) couldn t be included in ANY serious game mode.

Having no tell, and no reaction window simply removes skill from a game.
Prediction may be part of it, pushing it too far simply comes to luck.

Not to mention that you can easily browse internet for the most ridiculous stealth skill in a game and see what you find.

So now thinking about what your opponent will do in a given situation =’s reading minds. Wow. I do this against every class… heck I do this in every game. I am professor X.

2 things they have best mobility + they are the best at duels, they can pick the fights they want.

Aberrant.6749:

So now thinking about what your opponent will do in a given situation =’s reading minds. Wow. I do this against every class… heck I do this in every game. I am professor X.

That is called prediction.

If you can reliably predict your opponents probably means your opponents are bad.
As it happens for most WWW thieves.

If the only counter to something is “prediction”, just playing RANDOMLY removes the counterplay at all.

MarauderShields.6830:

Terrahero.9358:

Thief condition clear is already fantastic, and easy to get.

I suppose you haven’t read LordByrons and my posts above?
Shadow’s Embrace is ok for a class that is supposed to be weak against conditions (and far from “fantastic” when compared to Necro, Warr etc.).

With Hide in the Shadows i remove all bleeds, poison and burning. And with shadow embrace i remove 1 conditions every 3sec in stealth. And there is a lot of stealth.

Thief condition removal is amongst the highest for the lowest investment, suggesting conditions are a counter to thieves is the same brand of nonsense as saying AoE is a counter to thieves.

Terrahero.9358:

With Hide in the Shadows i remove all bleeds, poison and burning. And with shadow embrace i remove 1 conditions every 3sec in stealth. And there is a lot of stealth.

Thief condition removal is amongst the highest for the lowest investment, suggesting conditions are a counter to thieves is the same brand of nonsense as saying AoE is a counter to thieves.

Yes, HiS removes these easily applied conditions once every 30 seconds. What you still fail to see is that LordByron and I were discussing what thieves would need in exchange for the removed/nerfed ability to flee (a.k.a. stealth).
I main thief and I can assure you, we melt to conditions like butter in the sun. If players fail to realize that HiS has a 1 sec cast time that can be interrupted and that AoEs are meant to used point blank then no amount of nerf to the underpowered husk of a class called thief could help them – they will lose because they are bad.
I just started triple meditation guard and there is nothing an average thief can do against it but to run – and, if he likes the humiliation, rinse and repeat.

We have quite a few well designed classes which may be UP or OP depending on number crunching or the meta game.

On the flip side we have the travesty that is the Ranger and the Thief. One is a crippled character because the class is force fed the ball and chain pet which can not be controlled properly with very bad AI. The other is a blend of extremely kittened stealth mechanics and epilepsy inducing teleports and evades.

Timing different combos with Ele or Engi and beating the player or losing against him feels very satisfying. Getting off a successful shatter as a Mesmer feels very rewarding. But, fighting a thief and have absolutely no control over the fight in your hands is, I must say, the worst gaming experience I have ever had in my life.

^you do realise Mesmer can are equally horrible to fight if not worse when using stealth right? unlike thief you do not need to get close if anything you use it to keep far away and you can do damage while in stealth. you also do exactly the same thing as a thief.. stealth mind wrack illusionary leap stun/interrupt them leap sword 2………..

thief stealth steal interrupt/stun go nuts with weapon skills

not to mention a thief doesn’t have 6 others around that look like them once they drop target

LordByron.8369:

Aberrant.6749:

So now thinking about what your opponent will do in a given situation =’s reading minds. Wow. I do this against every class… heck I do this in every game. I am professor X.

That is called prediction.

If you can reliably predict your opponents probably means your opponents are bad.
As it happens for most WWW thieves.

If the only counter to something is “prediction”, just playing RANDOMLY removes the counterplay at all.

Ooh… there is so much wrong with this statement. Why do you think certain professions with certain builds tend to the same behavior, thus, making them predictable to a certain extend? Because they need it in order to be successful. Thieves need to go behind or beside you to get a decent back stab. They need to come close to you in order to use cloak and dagger. They need use shadow retreat in order to cleanse the condition that’s about to kill them. All of this results in predictable behavior and is not necessarily an indicator of good or bad player skill. Playing randomly would only result in an ultimate self defeating fighting style. Like using CnD when still debuffed with revealed and such.

^ yes a thief needs to get near you to do good damage but you need to think…. how long does aoe last? does that aoe do crazy damage? did they run left or right?

if aoe is a counter to thieves then it must be a massive hard counter to visible classes seeing as I can aim it at them/force them to stay in it because I am actually able to use attacks that require a target.

a thief does not need to deal large amounts of damage in one go.. they can out attrition any other class and due to no cool downs hindering their attacks and initiative regen being too fast they can dish out their highest hitting combos over and over until the opponents defences are all stuck behind a nice fat cool down.

people need to remember… not everyone plays warrior and gets a nice big hard hitting auto attack cleave they can spam all day and permanent regen healing them while the thief is recharging initiative… other classes actually need to try to beat a thief >.>…..

Guys you can t simply say something is accepted in many esport game is wrong.

You should give some reasons.
Your L2P attempt, its instead being predictable like gw2 AI and not paying for mistakes.

A decent thief can do whatever any other player do, that is called mind games, like faking retreats and stuff.

Thief is a class that removes any sort of counterplay, (except in PvP); any sort of mind game from the opponent and puts the thief Always on the offensive side until he commits so many mistakes he would be dead 3 times with any other profession.

In WWW its the profession you see more often used by unexperienced players because its has the lowest skill floor in game as roaming profession.

Its also the ONLY profession able to troll and survive zergs.

If its so balanced why preventing stealth to capture points in PvP?
Revert it so we all see how fair it is.

LordByron.8369:

If its so balanced why preventing stealth to capture points in PvP?
Revert it so we all see how fair it is.

Yeah! Thieves should be able to cap points while stealthed to illustrate their balance! When we all think eles are op, we’ll just say this to thwart their counter arguments “Well if you guys are so balanced then why don’t they just remove mist form for capping points, huh?” We’ll do the same thing to rangers with “protect me!” too!

Are you telling that capturing during mistform would be game breaking as thief capturing during stealth?

LordByron.8369:

Are you telling that capturing during mistform would be game breaking as thief capturing during stealth?

Nope! That’s a confirmation bias if you got that from what I said. In fact, being stealthed is less OP than being invulnerable to damage. Now to be illogical like you, are you telling ME that being completely invulnerable and capturing isn’t as OP as capturing while stealthed.

The thief hate is strong with this one.

Most people that play thieves know how to beat them, people who don’t will normally explode with rage because they don’t know how to handle it and complain because they can’t target them.

Pistol Whip – thieves, move out of the cleaving range, if you get hit move out and run through or to the side so you don’t get hit. S/P Thieves that spam or miss a pistol whip normally lose have the odds tipped against them.

Backstab thieves – Run in circles erratically and auto attack you’ll still hit them if they’re invisible and a large portion of though damage is the tempo to consistently land backstab to get youy low enough to use Heartseeker effectively. D/P variation is tough though but works the same, and you’ll have a general idea where they are unless they go full Shadow Refuge(Playing a thief helps you know what to expect and helps predictability)

S/D thieves, Stealth reliant on melee range CnD, unless they have HiS, S/D spam is bad and will often leave you defenseless if you have no utilities to use. and lingering AoE helps. Flanking Strike isn’t the hit you should be dodging, it’s Lancerous strike.

Varations of Perma dodge thieves without stealth. This is hard to play when you have no stealth to help you position, and any sort of CC or pull into heavy attacks will wreck you (I respect thieves that can actually play these variations of Thief specs well). 6 in trickery thieves with the stun/daze grandmaster are very squishy but have the ability to do more options with a larger imitative pool.

If people want to complain about stealth look at mesmer. Mesmers can go invisible and stay safe while Phantasms damage you. Or dodge roll spam to trigger clone death abilities to inflict you with permanent weakness and stack conditions on you.

Run around erratically is a counter??

afk torrent engis and perma evade/stealth mesmers are far more op then any thief spec.

ain’t nothing wrong with thieves, just ain’t no right with them either.

Eggyokeo.9705:

Chokolata.1870:

It just makes for unsatisfactory gameplay. *

I think this comment somes it up the best.

I get very little enjoyment fighting a thief when roaming and they are the majority of the available fights, participating in a fight where you are just waiting for you opponent to make a mistake is not rewarding, other classes i can often find away to get upper hand, but a thief if i get an upper hand they just stealth and run away and come back 2-5min later and and try again only to run away.

With other classes if i lose i can safely assume that they are a better player then me, or i did something silly. With a thief i can not be sure whether they are a better player then me or that it was just there class the carried them.

in sPvP i have no problem with thiefs as stealth can be a hindrance, but in roaming there is no down side to stealth.

The idea, that people should play classes in pvp that you enjoy fighting against, is one that i have heard a lot, and it is complete and total bull

people will always want to fight on their terms, that doesnt mean every single class should only fight one way because thats the type of fight some player prefers.

I see no structural complaint or suggestion what to change? I personally have no issues with thieves. Neither on Mesmer, Warrior, Guardian nor Necromancer (those 4 I played the most in the last months).

There are multiple ways to move against thieves. Denying stealth from CnD, CCing them out of shadow refuge, anticipating their movements and avoiding of back stabs, out damaging them, blocking of their attacks, reflecting pistol shots and such things. Any profession has tools to fight thieves. And it’s mostly not only one tool, but several in combination.