Guild Wars 2

Earlier a mesmer had the nerve to comment on the Ranger forums claiming that they are lagging further behind every other profession, even more so than Rangers.

I’ve encountered thousands of mesmers in WvW (and a fair few in pvp) and every one I see has an kitten nal of debuffs, stealth, clones and mobility (in-combat teleports) at their fingertips. They absolutely dominate 1v1 scenarios, with their opponent being forced into a passive stance. Because of their kitten nal of utilities and skills, they can also dominate 1vX if they are at least of average skill. Deciding which is a clone and which is a player is hard enough even without all the other stealth, CC and debuffs being thrown at you.

Rangers, by the looks of things, will be receiving some very nice buffs in the next balance patch – and it’s been a VERY long time coming. However, what I’m now seeing is that other professions – particularly mesmers – are highly expectant that Anet will provide them with the same. However this would be completely contradictory to the fact that Rangers have to be brought up to par with every other profession so that we’re on a level playing field. Buffing other professions to the same extent that they’ll buff Rangers will leave us more powerful – yes – but in exactly the same situation in terms of balance.

It’s not even hard to identify the Mesmer, just watch the one who isn’t standing still auto attacking. And who cares if they’re of strong in 1v1, anet balanced around group content, it’s group content therefore where it’s relevant how well a class performs, and mesmers are absolute trash tier in all three game modes.

Wow, you need some straightening out.

First of all, Mesmers are bottom tier in many (all?) modes of the game. The exception is one very cheesy build (trait?) that acts as a crutch for terrible players. Outside of this build making a Mesmer effective requires an enormous amount of both effort and skill.

The same is currently true of Rangers, however they lack a singular build that is incredibly strong.

Mesmers and Rangers are more alike than you know… Both classes can certainly use some love in the next patch.

TheLargeUnit.2793:

Wow, you need some straightening out.

First of all, Mesmers are bottom tier in many (all?) modes of the game. The exception is one very cheesy build (trait?) that acts as a crutch for terrible players. Outside of this build making a Mesmer effective requires an enormous amount of both effort and skill.

The same is currently true of Rangers, however they lack a singular build that is incredibly strong.

Mesmers and Rangers are more alike than you know… Both classes can certainly use some love in the next patch.

I don’t deny that there are probably things wrong with the Mesmer. But Rangers have been broken since beta. Without adequate fixes. Ever.

To equate the situation of mesmers to that of Rangers is ridiculous, and my point is reinforced even more by the fact that Rangers got the overwhelming majority of votes in the CDI poll of “which profession is in most need of help?”, with elementalists and necromancers coming in 2nd and 3rd, respectively.

You’re right in that Rangers do not have a single build that is incredibly strong; nor, might I add, do they have a build that another profession can’t do better. This is the precise reason Rangers are unwanted in PvE and WvW. Mesmers can DPS better, condi better, provide better group support (loved in WvW) and disengage much more easily – to name a few. This upcoming balance patch could be the change we need, because up till now Rangers are void in most aspects of the game. In pvp it’s not too bad; we do have a couple of decent builds available (condi bunker and spirits), though they take quite a bit of practice to get truly good at and are not face-rollable.

Your question has been answered extensively on the Mesmer forum in multiple threads.

Ok first of all, I am referring to the current state of each class.

Like I said in my original post, the majority of the playerbase is willing to simply be carried by this specific build/trait. That is why the Mesmer community is not nearly as vocal as that of the Ranger community. This, however, does not mean the problems with Mesmers are any less severe or needing of change.

I also think you are mistaking “group support” for utility options. Sure the Mesmer has skills that can be unparalleled in specific situations, but how useful are they in everyday gameplay?

You did remind me of this though. Full zerk gear, typical phantasm build in a 1v1 vs warrior. While it doesn’t address the question adequately it does express an example in the meta.

Drop portal. Put veil. Be happy for all the bugs everyone, but you, gets.

Ross Biddle.2367:

You did remind me of this though. Full zerk gear, typical phantasm build in a 1v1 vs warrior. While it doesn’t address the question adequately it does express an example in the meta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrpfPrWMRWo

That’s one of the worst examples of mesmer gameplay I’ve ever seen.

If I was to look at that with completely fresh eyes I’d say that it was a video designed specifically to be biased and deliberately showcase poor mesmer gameplay to make them look “weak”.

In rebuke, I give you this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U3GmhUrKSY

Bryzy.2719:

Ross Biddle.2367:

You did remind me of this though. Full zerk gear, typical phantasm build in a 1v1 vs warrior. While it doesn’t address the question adequately it does express an example in the meta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrpfPrWMRWo

That’s one of the worst examples of mesmer gameplay I’ve ever seen.

If I was to look at that with completely fresh eyes I’d say that it was a video designed specifically to be biased and deliberately showcase poor mesmer gameplay to make them look “weak”.

In rebuke, I give you this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U3GmhUrKSY

Yes. Pull out shatter, considered to be the only viable mesmer build in spvp, and even then people are struggling to take mesmer over other classes. Or use it in WvW where things fall apart for the mesmer if a thief finds him, he misses his burst, or there’s multiple enemies. It has super high burst and can drop someone (or multiple opponents in a close enough radius) in seconds. After that though there’s nothing left.

The video I posted isnt shatter. It’s phantasm, and it draws on a major aspect of mesmer builds and gameplay. Since you couldn’t see it let me point it out for you. The problem here is AI, and how DPS functions for the mesmer outside of a shatter burst. The bulk of DPS comes from phantasms, and in fact the iSwordsman is our highest DPS phant outside of iWarden, and between those two is the more reliable and fastest attacking. The video highlights just how easy it is for the warrior to

• A: ignore the phantasms,
• B: kite the phantasms to reduce their effectivness,
• C: demonstrate that the mesmer has nothing left outside of the phantasms (the block/ripostes hit hard, but theyre passive and the warrior played around them easily), *
• D: Then ultimately when he got tired of the phantasms, turn and strike them down with a single AA.

Now that’s vs a single opponent. Imagine there were more enemies in the scenario, each with their own myriad of AoE and Cleave attacks. He was ignoring the phantasms and not attacking them out of hand. Others would more then likely be spamming their attacks either at the mesmer, or at other opponents in the fight. What happens to the phantasms? They disappear, along with the mesmers (inept I might add even with them there) dps.

Now, what happens when we take the phantasm mesmer to a zerg? Or, what happens when we take your shatter build to a zerg? Does the Mesmer have any legit options to take to a zerg? Outside of duels, or small man, what does a mesmer bring that other classes can’t do better in the same scenario? Maybe Rangers are nothing but Mesmer chow but so what? That says nothing about the state Mesmer is actually in right now, which is not good despite what a shatter mesmer montage might suggest.

Let’s not forget about the bugs.

Bryzy.2719:

Earlier a mesmer had the nerve to comment on the Ranger forums claiming that they are lagging further behind every other profession, even more so than Rangers.

I’ve encountered thousands of mesmers in WvW (and a fair few in pvp) and every one I see has an kitten nal of debuffs, stealth, clones and mobility (in-combat teleports) at their fingertips. They absolutely dominate 1v1 scenarios, with their opponent being forced into a passive stance. Because of their kitten nal of utilities and skills, they can also dominate 1vX if they are at least of average skill. Deciding which is a clone and which is a player is hard enough even without all the other stealth, CC and debuffs being thrown at you.

Rangers, by the looks of things, will be receiving some very nice buffs in the next balance patch – and it’s been a VERY long time coming. However, what I’m now seeing is that other professions – particularly mesmers – are highly expectant that Anet will provide them with the same. However this would be completely contradictory to the fact that Rangers have to be brought up to par with every other profession so that we’re on a level playing field. Buffing other professions to the same extent that they’ll buff Rangers will leave us more powerful – yes – but in exactly the same situation in terms of balance.

Deciding which is the player and which is the clone is trivial and a complete non issue most of the time. No half decent player is fooled by illusions.

While mesmer started off in the beginning of the game as arguably the strongest class, consistent nerfs, patch after patch, have brought it down to a very poor state, pretty much unwanted in every game mode because another class will do the job better.

All three skills on MH sword have been kittened.
Focus, which was probably the best weapon in the beginning has been kittened and is arguably now our worst weapon.
Scepter has been kittened for direct damage, with no ranged substitute. Now only good in the infamous condi builds.
Glamour confusion got kittened, despite confusion already being nerfed and now everyone running with -condi duration food, so it would be underpowered anyway.

I could go on, but I don’t want to write a wall of text.

Yes mesmer is still playable – shatter is still impressive to watch and fun to play because the playstyle is so dynamic – but take note that good thieves will eat any shatter spec for breakfast, and it requires probably the highest skill floor of any class build to be effective.

Sergoros.4398:

Drop portal. Put veil. Be happy for all the bugs everyone, but you, gets.

Mesmer doesn’t have bugs? That’s cute. Let me play a “bugless” class that has 2 skills.

So, mesmers and rangers are in the same boat, but I think for somewhat different reasons.

I think both suffer from the fact that the original design assumed pets would be way, way better than they actually are. Offloading your class’ DPS onto a stupid AI thing that runs around means that you’re doing crap DPS almost any time it actually matters.

Now, I think this is easier to improve ranger because it’s easier to just give more DPS to the character itself and leave the pet as a source of occasional utility moves like extra CC. Look at the proposed longbow tweaks, for example. Mesmer’s problem is that our pet stuff is folded right into our weapon skills (your biggest damage move is usually a phantasm, for instance), and those illusions are awfully bug-ridden: iWarden sucking, iLeap failing to track or having the clone die instantly to any attack, iMage launching garbage projectiles that can’t hit anything. So improving mesmers requires not just hammering away at numbers but fixing all kinds of animation, pathing, and AI bugs.

The condi PU build is strong largely because it works around these built-in weaknesses. In a condi build, your clones spread conditions, both when they attack and when they die, and clones are much, much easier to spam than phantasms (most are on a 20-second cooldown; in contrast, you can trait for clone-on-dodge and there are skills that make a clone every 10 seconds or so). So it’s both easier to keep clones up and you can get something out of them when they die. Your damage doesn’t immediately go to kittens just because someone cleaved through a phantasm while trying to hit you.

In PVE, your utility as a mesmer is very situational. You’re occasionally great thanks to reflection. When you can keep your phantasms up (i.e. there’s almost no AOE to speak of), you can get decent damage output against a boss. But a lot of hardcore players say they’d rather just have a guardian since they reflect, too, without having to keep phantasms up for DPS. Plus they’re better at party buffs.

(I will freely admit that mesmers have more ZvZ value than rangers, thanks to a few key skills. But basically the ideal number of mesmers in a zerg is 1-2. :/ )

Mesmers are moaning because they want all their other build brought up to PU level of faceroll. Its also why u see mostly phantasm mesmers in yolo queue, because they want AI to do all the work for them.

Lifestealer.4910:

Mesmers are moaning because they want all their other build brought up to PU level of faceroll. Its also why u see mostly phantasm mesmers in yolo queue, because they want AI to do all the work for them.

Actually most Mesmers want PU nerfed and other builds buffed a bit so there not pidgeon holed into only being able to roam in wvw, with PU, because there not viable for anything else.
Also in PvP if your seeing anything that isn’t shatter than you’re playing at some low level play.

Esplen.3940:

Sergoros.4398:

Drop portal. Put veil. Be happy for all the bugs everyone, but you, gets.

Mesmer doesn’t have bugs? That’s cute. Let me play a “bugless” class that has 2 skills.

Bag*

Srry . Meant as drop. Loot.

That is the problem:

People think that Mesmer is just about an army of clones.

For each mode of the game Mesmers have only one viable build that “works”, and when they try to make something different from those meta builds, their effectiveness is so ridiculous low that it doesn’t even worth to take a mesmer that want to try that “something different from meta builds”, because the chances that it will be trash is, in most of the cases, 90%.

For PvP: No, Chaotic Interrupt isn’t viable, the same for mantra builds or any kind of PU. The only thing that is viable for PvP is Shatter, but currently this build is so bad and is so bugged that I think that a reroll is more effective than playing with it. Ah, portal and stuff.

WvW: PU, where people can win a battle by just running away from you.

PvE: Reflect, but, like… really? Reflect? AND DON’T THINK PHANTASM BUILD IS SOMETHING, because if you want to play something like this, even Cookie Clicker is more interesting.

So, I Play Ranger too, and I love everything about her and I know how fun and versatile and limited a Ranger can be, but I’m a Mesmer player too and I FEEL how much they need improvements. The class can’t even work right anymore after all these nerfs, and I’m really tired of being a Portal Boon Stripper Bot.

Don’t think we are crying for nothing. Please.

Why? Why?!?!

Because of the god kitten kittening awful bugs and just plain unfair gameplay mechanics that cripple a Mesmer, that’s why.

Here is a perfectly normal comparison of a Thief and a Mesmer… Imagine a scenario where there are 3 lousy low level mobs on a hillside in front. Its not high, maybe 2m above you or something, easy peasy.

A dagger/pistol Thief will use shadowshot and teleport to the first, then swish swish mob is dead, shadow shot to the next, swish swosh etc and so on and all three mobs dead in seconds. Instant response to skills and the Thief works as it should.

A sword/whatever Mesmer will use iLeap to teleport to the first, but the clone stops halfway and you teleport only to do blurred frenzy in the complete opposite direction of where the mobs are, then you say kitten it and swap to staff to quickly generete a clone with #2 and shatter, only to teleport right on the spot instead of backwards. But hey at least you can shatter that rabbit which the clone instantly ran for to kill instead of the mobs. The Mesmer is broken.

Fixing the Mesmer is not a matter of buffing it. In some weird twist of irony, fixing the Mesmer is about fixing it.

If we get our bugs fixed and some buffs we will be mostly happy. There are some things that have to be addressed like other builds need to be more effective than PU when they are actually played well.

I think he meant to type “Why are mesmers roaming?” Simple, because they’ve got nothing better to do other than be a utility bot.

Bryzy.2719:

I’ve encountered thousands of mesmers in WvW (and a fair few in pvp) and every one I see has an kitten nal of debuffs, stealth, clones and mobility (in-combat teleports) at their fingertips. They absolutely dominate 1v1 scenarios, with their opponent being forced into a passive stance.

Behold, an unbiased and highly objective statement to improve the quality of this forum.

(Also, someone thinks 1v1 is relevant to PvP :P)

Bryzy.2719:

I don’t deny that there are probably things wrong with the Mesmer. But Rangers have been broken since beta. Without adequate fixes. Ever.

And while I happily agree Rangers need buffs and major reworks to their traits and ability-sets (and I’m happy the incoming balance patch is an – if tiny – start), consider this:
Rangers are still taken more for PvP and WvW and Dungeons than Mesmers. Why? because they contribute more. Yes, even in the state they’re in. And now what does this tell you about the state of Mesmers?

It’s quite difficult (for me) to 1v1 Mesmers playing my Meditation Guardian.
They just Teleport around, kite for days and on top of it all have stealth to flee when they get low. Especially the last.

I find it amusing too.. As someone who plays both Ranger and Mesmer equally it’s really noticable.

Even after all the nerfs mesmer have gotten over time and all the (small) buffs rangers have gotten, Mesmers are still, by far, a much better put together profession. The reason they complain though is because they used to be even better, unlike Rangers who are pretty used to being looked down on by now.

It’s most noticable in discussions about zergs.. where mesmer complain and complain they are just veil / portal bots…. Dear god what rangers wouldnt give to have ANY use in a zerg. Anything at all.

Now this doesn’t mean Mesmer’s dont have their issues… every class does… and Mesmers are particularly beset by little bugs and glitches (like Ranger, funnily enough) mostly stemming from constant use of AIs, which also causes them problems in PvE (again like Rangers), so there are things that need to be addressed… But really most of the complaining from Mesmers is due to them once being gods and now being around normal.

Could it be that everyone who is talking about how strong Mesmers are is trying to play 1v1 versus them? You are hopefully aware you are specifically fighting in a way the game is trying to teach you to avoid?

Because as soon as the fight gets larger, my Mesmer completely falls apart. That is, as soon as the fight gets meaningful. Yes it’s a nice class with a Blackwater build against someone trying to 1v1 me when I’m on the defensive. So? All you would have to do is run away and I’m left alive but not having done anything, not contributing. Which is btw the running theme for Mesmer balance, “Cannot contribute”.

So really, why 1v1? Because it’s the one combat “format” neither the devs nor the game encourages and you want to stick it to the man?

Neptune.2570:

Lifestealer.4910:

Mesmers are moaning because they want all their other build brought up to PU level of faceroll. Its also why u see mostly phantasm mesmers in yolo queue, because they want AI to do all the work for them.

Actually most Mesmers want PU nerfed and other builds buffed a bit so there not pidgeon holed into only being able to roam in wvw, with PU, because there not viable for anything else.
Also in PvP if your seeing anything that isn’t shatter than you’re playing at some low level play.

Absolutely – I want to see PU (the trait) nerfed/reverted, and other skills buffed to give some build variety.

There is the illusion that Mesmer is overpowered, thanks to PU and a few utilities.

Shatter for example is not overpowered. Ask anyone who plays it. Any time you see someone winning a fight in shatter, their opponent(s) is/are several degrees less skilled.
By the way, I’d like anyone here to play sword/focus plus scepter/x shatter and come back and tell me that it is in a “normal” condition.

Some comments in this thread (and others) but show that some people simply don’t understand Mesmer. Claiming PU is OP is one example. I have been often accused of running PU in PvP. In every case I didn’t, showing how less mesmer strengths has to do with this trait.

People have no idea how mesmer works, what makes them strong and what makes them weak. Now that we are in such a bad shape after repeated nerfs, trait that simply don’t work or have limited to no effect and the long long bug list makes it easier for others to deal with mesmers.

I foresee that, if mesmer gets fixed/buffed, players will start to moan again, while we are just brought back in line and might be able to actually do something in group fights.

It’s different for ranger and mesmer.
They can simply buff ranger by some number changes, but those obnoxious bugs tha mesmers suffer cannot be easily fixed. In that sense, mesmers do need even more attention than rangers.

Also, you can try play a shatter mesmer in PvP and tell me how dominate you can be in any 1v1 or 1vX situation. It’s not as easy as it looks to u to play a mesmer.

I say to every single mesmer claiming they are in a ‘worse’ position as if this were some sort of ‘woe is me’ kittening contest…who has representation?

Mesmers do, Rangers don’t. You don’t see Rangers in top end Spvp or WvW teams. The only place you see Ranger is in pve and in that situation we are in the same boat as mesmer: utility kitten. Even there, how many times do you see pug groups with ads saying “no mesmers” and how many with “no rangers”?

…

Really though. No class should be wanted only for it’s utility. Necro’s are only wanted for their boon strips. Mesmer is only wanted for it’s veil. Ranger is only wanted for it’s spirits.

All three of these classes need to be made to be made desirable outside of being mere utility kittenes.

I guess its true necros dont exist.

Carighan.6758:

Rangers are still taken more for PvP and WvW and Dungeons than Mesmers. Why? because they contribute more. Yes, even in the state they’re in. And now what does this tell you about the state of Mesmers?

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

PvP.

Mesmers have a far better ability to disengage from skirmishes than Rangers with their bounty of clones, stealth, teleports and mass-CC. A decent mesmer can handle themselves perfectly fine in 1vX too, whereas it would take far more skill for a Ranger to do the same.

WvW.

Rangers contribute nothing to WvW. Mesmers on the other hand are highly regarded in WvW, particularly for their utilities and group-aid abilities.

Dungeons.

You’re absolutely kidding right? There is a huge element within the GW2 community that shuns Rangers from dungeon parties, and has done since the start. If Ranger was the only profession available to fill the last spot, the party would run with a 4-man team. We have been the least-desired profession for dungeons since the beginning.

Let me also summarise why Mesmers are not in the same boat as Rangers:

- Rangers have been the worst profession since beta, and that is reflected in the fact that we are the least represented in all aspects of the game.

- We’ve had no significant updates nor adequate fixes since the start of the game (apart from making the F2 pet skill more responsive).

- Our pet AI has always been shoddy to say the least. Pets account for 35-40% of our damage. That’s 35-40% of our damage that is missing 80% of the time in WvW and PvP while they’re running around trying to decide what to do in skirmish, and even when they have decided it turns out that they can’t even hit moving targets or execute skills properly.

- Ranger utilities have always been sub-par. We lack any kind of usefulness in a group.

- The Ranger is just weak, pure and simple. Every single build is lacklustre, and other professions can do each and every build better than we can.

- Even though mesmers do have problems, they only seem to be causing problems as of this year. Rangers have had to put up with all this crap since the very beginning.

It’s like sticking a middle finger up to the community when mesmers claim “oh we have it just as bad as Rangers!”

From what I have played as ranger, GS leap and block, sword double leap, dagger or shortbow evade, LR, permanent movement speed buffs and so on – for me I found it much easier to engage and disengage from combat compared to mesmer, with the only disadvantage being lack of on demand stealth.

In any case I will never put rangers and mesmers in the same boat – each has its own problems that desperately need fixing.

Regarding mesmers – one thing I’d like to clear up is that while I agree in the beginning the class started out all powerful, the repeated nerfs have not simply brought it down to “normal” levels – instead many things have been actively broken and most importantly build diversity has been severely reduced – such that outside of one or two seemingly powerful builds, everything else is well below par.

Curunen.8729:

Absolutely – I want to see PU (the trait) nerfed/reverted, and other skills buffed to give some build variety.

I don’t.

Simply put, I think Anet has no idea how to make light-armored classes survivable in a meaningful way, so a trait that grants Protection is about the best design we’re ever gonna see.

There’s no reason for the boon refresh to be every second.

Either change to 2s intervals, or grant boons only on entering stealth for say 4s base.

Curunen.8729:

There’s no reason for the boon refresh to be every second.

Either change to 2s intervals, or grant boons only on entering stealth for say 4s base.

It’s a random boon each time. On an average cast, you’re gaining 4s each (3s base + boon duration improvements), plus another 4s of one of them.

Sometimes you luck out and it looks kinda like this:
1. Regen procs, you start regenerating hp you’ve lost previously. You get Protection from Illusionary Membrane (4s).
2. Protection procs naturally (7s prot).
3. Aegis procs, lasting long enough to cover against the first burst you take once you come out of stealth.
4. Protection procs (so your total duration left is 7s).

Sometimes it doesn’t look like that at all and you have a stack of protection that expires the second you leave stealth.

Overall I think the prot and regen uptime is comparable — a bit superior, but still comparable to — to Elemental Attunement

You realize that…

(WvW) Only 1 or 2 Mesmers are needed for WvW. And no one wants to WvW as a utility bot.

(PvP) the only viable spec for Mesmer is being a glassy built shatter. How many counters? Lots. Thieves are a hard counter to Mesmers and are way better roamers. Conditions hard counter shatter Mesmers. AoEs counter shatter Mesmer.

(PvE) Even our PvE builds have been nerfed! Wow! It takes a very spiteful development team to nerf an average PvE build that made Mesmers OK for PvE. So what if we have Time Warpz!12!11!! Mesmer DPS is now so weak it’s better to have another Elementalist, Guardian or Warrior.

Only “noobs” would take a well built and skilled Ranger for granted in PvE or even dungeons. My Ranger ckittene Frost Spirit, Spotter and even Warhorn to help my group.

But don’t worry. The people who don’t play Mesmer will always have an excuse:
BUT U HVAE PORTALZ AND VEJLZ!!1121!1!!

The sword/focus set on memser, once their bread and butter damage and utility weaponset is now a shadow of its former self and is the most nerfed weaponset in the game.

ASP.8093:

Curunen.8729:

There’s no reason for the boon refresh to be every second.

Either change to 2s intervals, or grant boons only on entering stealth for say 4s base.

It’s a random boon each time. On an average cast, you’re gaining 4s each (3s base + boon duration improvements), plus another 4s of one of them.

Sometimes you luck out and it looks kinda like this:
1. Regen procs, you start regenerating hp you’ve lost previously. You get Protection from Illusionary Membrane (4s).
2. Protection procs naturally (7s prot).
3. Aegis procs, lasting long enough to cover against the first burst you take once you come out of stealth.
4. Protection procs (so your total duration left is 7s).

Sometimes it doesn’t look like that at all and you have a stack of protection that expires the second you leave stealth.

Overall I think the prot and regen uptime is comparable — a bit superior, but still comparable to — to Elemental Attunement

I just think it was fine before they decided to buff it again to the current state.

nearlight.3064:

The sword/focus set on memser, once their bread and butter damage and utility weaponset is now a shadow of its former self and is the most nerfed weaponset in the game.

So true.

Every single skill on Sword/Focus has taken a hit – from reduced damage on the third auto chain, blurred frenzy overly nerfed, iLeap stupidly “fixed”, Temporal Curtain screwed up in too many ways (swiftness, reflect, into the void ICD…), and of course iWarden broken beyond belief.

While I agree early on this set was, well, overpowered for want of a better word – now it has seen far too many nerfs and as such is hardly used at all in pvp anymore.

please they are both broken. ranger hasn’t gotten much love, neither did mesmer, the mesmer also has 100+ bugs since beta… some temporarily fixed and forgotten again…

The main strength of mesmer was the complete shutdown of a character. without actually having the power to kill him when using a condition build, this was nerfed, and some focus was laid on dps creating a mix between a ele and a thief instead of creating a character for complete shutdowns

Confusion isn’t dangerous… until you do something, then is does a LOT more dmg this was to be nerfed and we got some mediocre condition s to play with, 5 secs of bleeds, 2 secs of poison, 2 secs of burning… because we could completely shut someone down for 10-20 seconds before… not doing dmg…. but because if he didnt do anyting himself he would stay alive. Oh just for the record condi clean completely nullifies a condition mesmer based on confusion. no dmg with or without stacks….

same though for rangers. condi ranger used to be nice, witrh a shortbow and a sigil of earth they could compete… well sigil of earth was nerfed into oblivion… and so was condition ranger

for dps, well they are both effective and both squishy… and though the weapons are different, they are completely the same.

just for the idea, in wvw condition mesmers and condition ranger still are poweful roamers who can solocap camps without any big problems…

rangers are on their way to become hard counters vs thieves. even though a ranger can bring spirits and warhorns the main thing where the rangers shine is 1500 range dps vs enemies on walls….

mesmer has few comparable things except some gimmicks: timewarp, veil, portals, but no real dps, no real cc, no real impact…. except for cappin’ a few camps solo…

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bw0uz/all_the_builds_from_eu_tol_qualifier_2/

4 Mesmers
1 Ranger

Mesmers are moaning for no reason.

Rangers and Mesmers are VERY alike…..

According to Anet these should be the king of long range damage and both rely on AI (ugh)

similar weapons too

GS = LB
Staff = Axe
Sword = Great sword / sword
scepter = short bow

What bugs me the most though is all the mesmers complain that they are nothing but a utility bot. Just be happy you have the freakin utilities…..Rangers don’t and since beta have been a poor man’s mesmer. Rangers can’t be utility bots, commanders call them worthless bots but I hope that will change with future patch for both classes.

I agree, all of us Mesmers are complaining for no reason. We have NOT been shoved down into a role of pure support in all our game modes, even while being built and traited for pure dps. No, we are clearly very viable based on top tPvP teams. In fact, I’d like to go ahead and point out that all of the Mesmers on those teams are running the exact same (variance in Sigils. Runes are either Strength or Traveler) overpowered build of… pure support dps.

Oh wait… we’re being abused for our “overpowered” team utility skills again.

LumAnth.5124:

You realize that…

(WvW) Only 1 or 2 Mesmers are needed for WvW. And no one wants to WvW as a utility bot.

(PvP) the only viable spec for Mesmer is being a glassy built shatter. How many counters? Lots. Thieves are a hard counter to Mesmers and are way better roamers. Conditions hard counter shatter Mesmers. AoEs counter shatter Mesmer.

(PvE) Even our PvE builds have been nerfed! Wow! It takes a very spiteful development team to nerf an average PvE build that made Mesmers OK for PvE. So what if we have Time Warpz!12!11!! Mesmer DPS is now so weak it’s better to have another Elementalist, Guardian or Warrior.

Only “noobs” would take a well built and skilled Ranger for granted in PvE or even dungeons. My Ranger ckittene Frost Spirit, Spotter and even Warhorn to help my group.

But don’t worry. The people who don’t play Mesmer will always have an excuse:
BUT U HVAE PORTALZ AND VEJLZ!!1121!1!!

And how is any of this relevant to Rangers getting a buff?

So WvW, how many mesmers does a skill group have? 1-2. How many Rangers? 0.

SPvP: As posted above, EU qualifying Memsers: 4, Rangers: 1.

ONLY in PvE does the Ranger have a edge, but only as a utility bot. No one would take a Ranger for the dps they do (which is terrible, even your ‘nerfed’ mesmer dps is better).

So, why don’t you guys just like, wait for your darn turn instead of jumping all over the starving kid who finally got tossed a piece of bread.

Esplen.3940:

I agree, all of us Mesmers are complaining for no reason. We have NOT been shoved down into a role of pure support in all our game modes, even while being built and traited for pure dps. No, we are clearly very viable based on top tPvP teams. In fact, I’d like to go ahead and point out that all of the Mesmers on those teams are running the exact same (variance in Sigils. Runes are either Strength or Traveler) overpowered build of… pure support dps.

Oh wait… we’re being abused for our “overpowered” team utility skills again.

Yes. Listen to Esplen. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Mesmer. No issues, broken skills, broken utilities, bugs, or useless traits. The build diversity for Mesmers is through the roof, and Mesmer shines in all situations across all game modes.

No issues what so ever ~Esplen.

I’d also like to point out that while Mesmers have a “plethora” of useful Traits, they’re so far spread that it really doesn’t offer any diversity to our builds. It used to, be because of constant nerfs and unjustified (either that or you guys really need a PR team) tweaks (typically without even making it to the patch notes), we’ve been pidgeonholed. There’s a reason why all 4 Mesmers are running the same build…

Ross Biddle.2367:

Esplen.3940:

I agree, all of us Mesmers are complaining for no reason. We have NOT been shoved down into a role of pure support in all our game modes, even while being built and traited for pure dps. No, we are clearly very viable based on top tPvP teams. In fact, I’d like to go ahead and point out that all of the Mesmers on those teams are running the exact same (variance in Sigils. Runes are either Strength or Traveler) overpowered build of… pure support dps.

Oh wait… we’re being abused for our “overpowered” team utility skills again.

Yes. Listen to Esplen. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Mesmer. No issues, broken skills, broken utilities, bugs, or useless traits. The build diversity for Mesmers is through the roof, and Mesmer shines in all situations across all game modes.

No issues what so ever ~Esplen.

While Mesmers do have a right to complain about certain things, you pretty much misunderstood and mis-summerized his whole post.

Just because a class or build might be highly viable and desirable in certain game modes, doesn’t mean they don’t have any problems. Even warriors who are considered the apex predator in sPvP are plagued by bugs and certain problems as well as useless traits and broken utilities/skills.

Even classes like Guardians, Thieves, Engineers and Eles have little variance in the types of builds that they run in top level tPvP.

It seems like you are so completely convinced with your head up our own you know what that your class is completely broken, useless and unviable that you refuse to acknowledge claims that other classes that have even more problems and probably refuse acknowledgement of players that are actually having success and fun with mesmer and quick to paint a black cloud over anybody that says so.

Actually, while he did add some things I did not even bring to light in my post, he hit the nail right in the head. There are reasons why Mesmers are bad and the majority of the reasons is that the only time we ever get attention is to get nerfed… or to be told we don’t deserve to be better.

It’s almost as though people think we’re strong and are afraid of buffing us because the ones of us who play extremely well would play us too well with a buff (since Mesmers are a class with the “highest skill cap” [put in quotations because at the rate the game is going, it’s not going to last much longer, it’s going to be a high skill floor, not ceiling]).

runeblade.7514:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bw0uz/all_the_builds_from_eu_tol_qualifier_2/

4 Mesmers
1 Ranger

Mesmers are moaning for no reason.

Hope not to offend anyone, but I get the feeling if Helseth had rolled ranger, there would be 5 rangers, 0 Mesmers. I’m not part of the who is worst off debate, both rangers and mesmers need some love.

Yeah it’s pretty obvious they went Mesmer this tournament when Helseth and his team won last one, above poster is right.

Another thing is that Mesmer only works in spvp on high level if they team is adjusted to protecting their mesmer, much like how Necros also need baby sitting.

Neptune.2570:

runeblade.7514:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bw0uz/all_the_builds_from_eu_tol_qualifier_2/

4 Mesmers
1 Ranger

Mesmers are moaning for no reason.

Hope not to offend anyone, but I get the feeling if Helseth had rolled ranger, there would be 5 rangers, 0 Mesmers. I’m not part of the who is worst off debate, both rangers and mesmers need some love.

Pretty much that. The team with Helseth won in EU so that had a lot of impact.

If you switch your focus to NA, you will barely see any mesmers as there was no success in last ToL from mesmers.