Guild Wars 2

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Just checked, you are correct. However, someone said it wasn’t an instant stun breaker, it is.

It is a stunbreaker. It is not “instant”. It has a 1/4 second cast time.

Talyn.3295:

However as much as I understand why it is wanted. I don’t feel that it is a good change. The necro may not not have vigor, blocks or invulns but it has a lot of HP, and can be traited to be extremely tanky, (as mine is).

Look at its counter the guardian, who has alot of boons, blocks and arguably vigor. Guardians have one of the smallest hp pool while Necros have one of the largest. It is a question of balance.

One word: Warrior.

The problem is condition necros.. if they have proper access to stability then they will be nearly unstoppable cos they are just insanely strong..

But power necros get rekt by CC.. Deathly Perception in soul reaping line is too good to not take when using power builds. A thief and Mesmer can take DS from 100% to 5% in a matter of seconds after being stunned which means that “2nd Healthpool” isn’t really useful meaning they are only as tanky as anything else but with less escapes, stealth, leaps whatever you wanna call them and one self heal.. which guess what? gets interrupted due to lack of stability and is so obvious too see although it is possibly one of the best heals in the game.

Any player good enough to know when to stun a power necro will probably not have trouble beating them.. Condi necros though just need to get out of the game cos they are so cheesy and do not need stability cos they are too strong

DonEllz.6312:

Condi necros though just need to get out of the game cos they are so cheesy and do not need stability cos they are too strong

If they’re so strong and cheesy, why do we see so few of them in tournaments? Those guys aren’t playing with some code of “honor”, they will do whatever it takes to win.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DonEllz.6312:

Condi necros though just need to get out of the game cos they are so cheesy and do not need stability cos they are too strong

If they’re so strong and cheesy, why do we see so few of them in tournaments? Those guys aren’t playing with some code of “honor”, they will do whatever it takes to win.

I don’t watch the tournaments, i’m coming from a more WvW roaming orientated view. Maybe because the users can’t use Dire in PvP XD lal!

DonEllz.6312:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DonEllz.6312:

Condi necros though just need to get out of the game cos they are so cheesy and do not need stability cos they are too strong

If they’re so strong and cheesy, why do we see so few of them in tournaments? Those guys aren’t playing with some code of “honor”, they will do whatever it takes to win.

I don’t watch the tournaments, i’m coming from a more WvW roaming orientated view. Maybe because the users can’t use Dire in PvP XD lal!

Okay then, why do you not see more of them roaming in WvW? The vast majority of roamers are thieves, mesmers, and warriors. Necro roamers are few and far between, but those that do roam are quite confident in their abilities and frequently skilled enough to make up for the fact they can’t get themselves out of trouble. I’ve roamed both as power and condition necros with good success, not because it’s “cheesy,” but because I’m good enough to win against most opponents. When I get caught in a bad spot (say a small group finds me), I know I’m done for, but I can usually down one or get multiples close to it before I go down.

The fact is, WvW roaming is the place where condition necros are actually good, but they are by no means “cheesy”. They’re just effective and usually manned by people that are experienced with the class.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DonEllz.6312:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DonEllz.6312:

Condi necros though just need to get out of the game cos they are so cheesy and do not need stability cos they are too strong

If they’re so strong and cheesy, why do we see so few of them in tournaments? Those guys aren’t playing with some code of “honor”, they will do whatever it takes to win.

I don’t watch the tournaments, i’m coming from a more WvW roaming orientated view. Maybe because the users can’t use Dire in PvP XD lal!

Okay then, why do you not see more of them roaming in WvW? The vast majority of roamers are thieves, mesmers, and warriors. Necro roamers are few and far between, but those that do roam are quite confident in their abilities and frequently skilled enough to make up for the fact they can’t get themselves out of trouble. I’ve roamed both as power and condition necros with good success, not because it’s “cheesy,” but because I’m good enough to win against most opponents. When I get caught in a bad spot (say a small group finds me), I know I’m done for, but I can usually down one or get multiples close to it before I go down.

The fact is, WvW roaming is the place where condition necros are actually good, but they are by no means “cheesy”. They’re just effective and usually manned by people that are experienced with the class.

In EU a necro is 70% of the time going to be condition and today i think i saw about 4-5 groups of 2 condi necros running around which was annoying as hell.. all it took was a couple of fears, 2 spites = GG…. and yes i could have done something about them fears but as I was on my power necro i didnt have the access too stability as it wasn’t traited and when i did use a stunbreak the other necro feared me.. But yes if a class has something strong about then by all means play that build. I main Necro but I will never play condition Necro, nothing against them cos I use a “cheese” build on my engineer admittingly.

So, because you lost a 1v2, condition necros are cheesy? Got news for you, anyone has a much tougher time against 2 opponents, regardless of builds.

And yes, most necros roaming do go conditions. Why does this surprise anyone? They don’t have the active defenses on power weapons and they don’t have good long range direct damage capabilities. How often do you see ranged thieves or Guardians roaming? Not very often, because their ranged weapons generally aren’t very good for it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, because you lost a 1v2, condition necros are cheesy? Got news for you, anyone has a much tougher time against 2 opponents, regardless of builds.

And yes, most necros roaming do go conditions. Why does this surprise anyone? They don’t have the active defenses on power weapons and they don’t have good long range direct damage capabilities. How often do you see ranged thieves or Guardians roaming? Not very often, because their ranged weapons generally aren’t very good for it.

Well NA obviously haven’t met the thief pistol #1 spamming condi krait rune whatever they are running build.. and i see many guardians roam lol.. it’s not uncommon to see a guardian roaming running a meditation build, even i have one of them :/

DonEllz.6312:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, because you lost a 1v2, condition necros are cheesy? Got news for you, anyone has a much tougher time against 2 opponents, regardless of builds.

And yes, most necros roaming do go conditions. Why does this surprise anyone? They don’t have the active defenses on power weapons and they don’t have good long range direct damage capabilities. How often do you see ranged thieves or Guardians roaming? Not very often, because their ranged weapons generally aren’t very good for it.

Well NA obviously haven’t met the thief pistol #1 spamming condi krait rune whatever they are running build.. and i see many guardians roam lol.. it’s not uncommon to see a guardian roaming running a meditation build, even i have one of them :/

Sorry I wasn’t clear, I meant “ranged Guardians”.

And yeah, those thieves are in NA too, they’re just not very popular.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DonEllz.6312:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So, because you lost a 1v2, condition necros are cheesy? Got news for you, anyone has a much tougher time against 2 opponents, regardless of builds.

And yes, most necros roaming do go conditions. Why does this surprise anyone? They don’t have the active defenses on power weapons and they don’t have good long range direct damage capabilities. How often do you see ranged thieves or Guardians roaming? Not very often, because their ranged weapons generally aren’t very good for it.

Well NA obviously haven’t met the thief pistol #1 spamming condi krait rune whatever they are running build.. and i see many guardians roam lol.. it’s not uncommon to see a guardian roaming running a meditation build, even i have one of them :/

Sorry I wasn’t clear, I meant “ranged Guardians”.

And yeah, those thieves are in NA too, they’re just not very popular.

okay ranged guardians maybe not.. but that staff 1 though

DonEllz.6312:

But power necros get rekt by CC..

I run a direct damage necro, and I do not get destroyed by CCs. If you look at the CC skills as a whole, they almost always have the clearest tells of all the skills out there. All I have to do is dodge the obvious stun or knock back, and when they try soft CC such as chill, immobilize, or cripple, I transfer those condition CCs onto my foe.

Except you have 2 dodges, and one stun break, and almost any CC build has a crapton more CC than that (my MM build has 6 sources of hard CC). After that, you’re pretty screwed. And that is just 1v1, in a teamfight, you’re looking at one person having more than enough to burn all your ways to avoid CC, and then you get CC trained by 5 people into oblivion because you have no way to negate damage.

So?
If someone invest in a “crapton” of CC then they are devoting their build to CC. If someone devoted their entire build to one aspect, then yes, you absolutely should be effected to some level by that aspect.

It is totally unreasonable to expect to be able to completely nullify every build. We can easily nullify condition builds by turning it back on them. With the shear number of Hp+DS, we can absorb an extremely high level of both damage types. To expect to negate CC to that level is unreasonably out of balance for us.

That is a single build, just one. I’m not saying they shouldn’t have CC, but the reason Necromancer is focused 101/100 times is because unlike every other profession the enemy team KNOWS we can’t do anything about it (or if you find out the Necro isn’t damage based you just ignore them since they are useless).

I’m asking for us to have a chance against focus fire. As it is now, unless you stay at your absolute max 900-1200 range and do as little as possible, the enemy team can kill you literally at will because you have no way to avoid it. They will CC you because you have no way to create distance well (Flesh Wurm can do it at the cost of bringing you completely out of the fight), few ways to kite against certain builds (all of which can be invalidated in some builds, like Berzerker stance), and once you are caught you will be CC’d without a way to do anything about it until you die.

This would never happen to another profession, they have so many ways to create large distances quickly (and then get back to the fight right after), go completely invulnerable for multiple seconds, block, use stability, etc. It takes a long time to lock them down because they have enough defensive CDs that if they are playing well you will never lock them down.

Its not even that people are asking for that, we’re literally just asking for ONE thing, stability, so when we do get focused we can still try to kite.

To everyone saying that necros have a large hp pool, can cleanse conditions, and can build tanky, so they obviously don’t need anything to help negate damage…seriously, warrior, anyone?

They have the largest HP pool in the game, have a kittenload of condition clearing, and multiple utilities that negate or completely nullify damage, not to mention break stuns at the same time.

If it’s fine for them, why is just having some of that stuff OP for necros? On top of all that condi clearing, high HP, high armor, and damage negating utilities, warriors have like a million skills that make them leap forward and let them put some distance between themselves and whoever’s after them. Necros have none.

It’s not like people are asking for more condi clearing or vigor or leaps for faster movement or anything else – we just want a fighting chance when we’re disengaging from a zerg or a fight and we get stunlocked. Necros are notoriously the slowest class, and also the one most likely to die when the rest of your zerg or group is running since we often get left behind, with everyone else able to either stealth, leap, or teleport out of harm’s reach.

If you get stunned or immobilized, sure, you cleanse it, or use Spectral Armor to stun break, but then someone else does it, and then another person, and so on, and no amount of HP is going to help you survive being chain-CCed. Stability is literally the only thing that could help here, and I fail to comprehend why the slowest class with nothing to help with mobility doesn’t have any.

Right, because it makes perfect sense to use warrior and thief as the pinnacle of balance. Seriously, if your using this two professions and their functionality as examples to define a need for changes, no one can have a serious debate on this matter.

coglin.1867:

Right, because it makes perfect sense to use warrior and thief as the pinnacle of balance. Seriously, if your using this two professions and their functionality as examples to define a need for changes, no one can have a serious debate on this matter.

You cant balance a game without comparing classes.The idea of balance is to have all classes on a relatively equal footing and to have counters to each and every build. Atm necro doesnt have any way to counter stunlock builds in a practical way.

Don’t crucify coglin. He makes a good point, warriors and thieves shouldn’t be the standards, since everyone agrees they need nerfs. We should compare to elementalists and guardians in my opinion.

You shouldnt compare to any select class/classes. You should compare all of them. Excluding comparisons with warriors and thieves just because they are supposedly op is the epitome of idiocy.

The main reason necros need stability so badly is because they can’t really avoid attacks. Damage they can soak up with high health and death shroud, but CC doesn’t work like that. If necros aren’t going to get avoidance methods, they need ways to be able to soak it up instead. Stability is pretty much the only way to do that for CC.

Since the defense mechanisms for necros are “suck it up like a man,” it would be nice if we had the tools to actually do that.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The main reason necros need stability so badly is because they can’t really avoid attacks. Damage they can soak up with high health and death shroud, but CC doesn’t work like that. If necros aren’t going to get avoidance methods, they need ways to be able to soak it up instead. Stability is pretty much the only way to do that for CC.

This, every bit this. We’re designed to not have active defenses like block/vigor/etc., which is fine, IF we actually have all the tools needed to just absorb what is thrown at us. However you can’t just absorb CC, since it not only deals damage while hitting you, but it makes us unable to use our ability to absorb (because to absorb we have to be constantly refilling HP/LF).

Personally I don’t really know about attaching Stability to it, but I’m pretty sure that the skill isn’t pulling its weight at the moment. I think it wouldn’t be unfair to add a stunbreak to it.

I think honestly the first things to focus on are Global balance , after wards looking for some balance polish :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/SPVP-Balance-Competitive-GW2/first#post3995121

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Necros easily get enough HP not to need more stability. And honestly, this post boils down to you not liking the strengths and weaknesses of necros. Play guard if you need more stability.

How the hell can you justify the lack of stability by HP? A warrior has the same base HP pool (not mentioning deathshroud) as a necro and is a heavily armoured class with around the same amount of condition cleanses as a necro if traited and they can get immense amounts of stability. I do not want to get into a debate about warriors as generally i think they are relatively balanced since the patch. But yes i have been stun locked as a necro and its just so depressing having literally nothing to fall back on, especially if the person stunning you is immune to blinds and fears.

I think a little more access to vigor though is needed not stability. However that would present a problem in that berserker necros are ridiculously overpowered dps wise and giving them access to vigor would only increase this. The only reason i can consider for necros being OP zerker wise is due to them being a condition class so the damage modifiers on their skills are larger than most classes. And don’t come back at me with thieves, believe it or not thieves have to work hard to deal decent damage without being killed, the bad ones deal decent damage but die.

however tweaking these damage coefficients ever so slightly and giving about a 30-40% up-time on vigor for about 2 trait points (either on being hit or doing a hit gives 4s vigor with a cd of 10 seconds maybe, or even entering DS will grant a 5-6 second vigor maybe), i see no reason for not being able to do that.

then both condition necros and berserker necros have something to fall back on, Zerker necros are in an even worse spot than condition when you think about it as they have less fears, thus currently they rely on out dpsing the target making them a rather dull build.

@sheppy HP gives wiggle room when you get stun locked. And yes, warriors do have that, but look at other classes. Guards have lots of stability but low HP. Eles have lots of escapes but low HP. Ranger has mid HP and some stability. Mesmers, mid HP but with lots of escapes, at the cost of no movement speed. Engineer, mid HP and has escapes. If you look at these classes, the necro seems pretty ok now doesn’kitten

MercilessLemurs.7459:

@sheppy HP gives wiggle room when you get stun locked. And yes, warriors do have that, but look at other classes. Guards have lots of stability but low HP. Eles have lots of escapes but low HP. Ranger has mid HP and some stability. Mesmers, mid HP but with lots of escapes, at the cost of no movement speed. Engineer, mid HP and has escapes. If you look at these classes, the necro seems pretty ok now doesn’kitten

HP still does not replace Stability at all. Avoidance does.

Warriors: Some blocks, extra endurance regen through Signet of Stamina/Vigor, Good amounts of Stability
Guardians: Many blocks, good Vigor access, great access to Stability
Elementalists: Numerous invulnerabilities, movements, blinds, and some blocking (though yes, most on long cooldowns) and decent stability access
Mesmers: lots of evades, an invulnerability as a class mechanic, blinks, and interrupts. weak stability access
Thieves: Evades, blinds, evades, dodges, stealth, and evades, but poor stability access

I’ll do Rangers and engies later, but you get the idea. Necros have nothing but a few blinds, generally unusable in a reactionary manner.

MercilessLemurs.7459:

@sheppy HP gives wiggle room when you get stun locked. And yes, warriors do have that, but look at other classes. Guards have lots of stability but low HP. Eles have lots of escapes but low HP. Ranger has mid HP and some stability. Mesmers, mid HP but with lots of escapes, at the cost of no movement speed. Engineer, mid HP and has escapes. If you look at these classes, the necro seems pretty ok now doesn’kitten

No i stand by my point. For some ridiculous reason you are saying that the amount of stability one gets is directly proportional to HP. No i am pretty sure stability is the lowest factor on the list that determines a classes HP, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 has pointed out exactly why classes get the HP they deserve. If Anet took your point to heart in the next patch necromancers would get twice the base health that they have now + their DS on top.

I realise that a class that is supposed to be CC heavy is supposed to be vulnerable to the exact same thing and i am happy to accept that and am happy for a necro to have no stability at all. The problem is not stability on a necro its the fact that the last patch broke them. It broke them as warriors and elementalists can stack 25 stacks of might and do aoe burning for 500 damage a tick. Who needs a squishy class with tiny aoe conditions, no safe stomps and no “get out of dangers” (which is what the initial poster addresses), like every other class in the game when you can have classes that deal 5k+ on attacks that take half a second to cast and deal insane condition damage.

we have plenty of stun breaks they are pointless in team play if they don’t get you out of the frey and onceit is used that’s it.. youre on a giant cooldown and they can just lock you down again

MercilessLemurs.7459:

They are tanky while performing activities. Life siphon, deaths shroud etc.

Ironic how many people troll a thread that tries to be serious and address issues within this game that will be marginally left behind in the ever coming future. In any event lets take a look at what this statement is saying. They are tanky and preform activities while stunned to hell…..oh well moving on.

Vast majority of people who are experienced with necros would agree that they do need a more direct means of stability activation to allow them some measure of control when required. Since anet are some what bent on a form of class description (when in reality their current class descriptions are thrown out the window), they won’t even try to provide any increase to mobility at all.

Necros gain a lot of survivability from remaining on the offensive and attacking, that’s a fact.

Looking at necros briefly all I can really say is that many of their abilities and capabilities stem from the profession being capable of punishing the attacker through conditions or being near the necro passively. Even if you land the most perfect CC imaginable, many of the traits a Necro has will counter you for it.

THAT said, I think necros could use a slight bit of stability somewhere, like 1-2 second duration traits placed in a few places across the trees. They do not need much stability, rather I think they have other issues than being CCed down…

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Necros gain a lot of survivability from remaining on the offensive and attacking, that’s a fact.

They can’t do that while bouncing.

That is also a fact that overrides your fact.

There are more than a few builds out there on other classes that can chain CC a Necro while also dealing more than enough damage by themselves to guarantee the Necro dies with no realistic hope of c-c-c-c-combo breaking out of it and living once it is successfully initiated. Because those classes also get stability and/or superior avoidance to ensure they are immune to what few reactive tools a Necro gets. Your only hope at that point is that they screw up the chain or a team mate rescues you.

Sykper.6583:

Looking at necros briefly all I can really say is that many of their abilities and capabilities stem from the profession being capable of punishing the attacker through conditions or being near the necro passively. Even if you land the most perfect CC imaginable, many of the traits a Necro has will counter you for it.

THAT said, I think necros could use a slight bit of stability somewhere, like 1-2 second duration traits placed in a few places across the trees. They do not need much stability, rather I think they have other issues than being CCed down…

Which traits specifically counter cc? I immediately think of reapers protection, and foot in the grave, but what else? I don’t think another 1-2 second stability is what is needed. We already have a 3 second stability. What we need is an active skill, something we can take instead of one of our other utilites that will give us stability. Signet of locust is good target because its active is underpowered, and it’s active relates to good stability because fast movement helps you counter it. This forces necros who take this skill to make trade offs, which is never a bad thing in a video game.

With all the Hp we have to absorb both damage types, and in most cases, send their conditions right back at them. Why not do what I do on my necro, and use dodges to avoid the CC skills first and fore most. Many of them can be avoided simply by moving out of the path. In those cases dodges are not even necessary.

A lot of the s entries for complaint I am seeing here, appears to be from poor game play decisions more then any thing else. At least that is how I see it. Personally I find dodging CC skills and stun breakers, reasonably sufficient, when combined with our hp pool and DS option. I say this based on my experience with every profession having been leveled to 80, and my love for my necromancer. I much prefer our reasonable balance, compared to how I feel on my thief or warrior.

dancingmonkey.4902:

With all the Hp we have to absorb both damage types, and in most cases, send their conditions right back at them. Why not do what I do on my necro, and use dodges to avoid the CC skills first and fore most. Many of them can be avoided simply by moving out of the path. In those cases dodges are not even necessary.

A lot of the s entries for complaint I am seeing here, appears to be from poor game play decisions more then any thing else. At least that is how I see it. Personally I find dodging CC skills and stun breakers, reasonably sufficient, when combined with our hp pool and DS option. I say this based on my experience with every profession having been leveled to 80, and my love for my necromancer. I much prefer our reasonable balance, compared to how I feel on my thief or warrior.

Right, classic L2P answer. The problem you aren’t seeing is that we have to avoid more than just 2 ccs per 20 seconds especially when getting focused. Giving an active skill that grants stability will allow us to use our active skills when getting focused without sacrificing 30 in soul reaping. That is exactly what necromancers need. Currently what happens in team play is the necro gets focused first not only because they do a ton of aoe damage, but also because they are by far the easiest to get focused. As far as your L2P comments, it is hard for me to agree with you when it is well known that the last 2 sentences are true.

zapv.8051:

Right, classic L2P answer. The problem you aren’t seeing is that we have to avoid more than just 2 ccs per 20 seconds especially when getting focused. Giving an active skill that grants stability will allow us to use our active skills when getting focused without sacrificing 30 in soul reaping. That is exactly what necromancers need. Currently what happens in team play is the necro gets focused first not only because they do a ton of aoe damage, but also because they are by far the easiest to get focused. As far as your L2P comments, it is hard for me to agree with you when it is well known that the last 2 sentences are true.

I am seeing the situation your “claiming” as a problem just fine. I simply do not see it as an issue.

If someone invest a large portion of their build into CC, why would you expect to avoid all of the CC? As well, why do you tell me what I need to defeat someone, when I prove your example incorrect in my game play every single day? I find it interesting that you tell me you must follow certain criteria to accomplish something, when I do not. Then suggest a difference in play between the two of us is irrelevant.

It doesn’t help either, that you attempt to imply that necromancer is specifically, as a profession, some how more susceptible to CC then every other profession. When there are other professions with as little or less access to stability. Your also assuming that every other player in professions with stability, us it in every build that everybody uses. It doesn’t help your perspective to assert such conjecture and assumption.

Dancing monkey said it right. Cc skills, especially on warrior, are easy to dodge. And, you shouldn’t be able to avoid all cc of a cc build.

dancingmonkey.4902:

I am seeing the situation your “claiming” as a problem just fine. I simply do not see it as an issue.

If someone invest a large portion of their build into CC, why would you expect to avoid all of the CC? As well, why do you tell me what I need to defeat someone, when I prove your example incorrect in my game play every single day? I find it interesting that you tell me you must follow certain criteria to accomplish something, when I do not. Then suggest a difference in play between the two of us is irrelevant.

It doesn’t help either, that you attempt to imply that necromancer is specifically, as a profession, some how more susceptible to CC then every other profession. When there are other professions with as little or less access to stability. Your also assuming that every other player in professions with stability, us it in every build that everybody uses. It doesn’t help your perspective to assert such conjecture and assumption.

I wouldn’t expect to avoid all of the CC and I never claimed that. I don’t know where you got that from, but this thread is asking for stability on a 60/48 traited cooldown. That means it would probably be about 6-8 seconds of stability tops. This is by no means immunity to cc in a 1vs1.

In high level pvp and even organized wvw, necros get focused faster and harder than any other class in the game. There is a reason for this, it is because they can’t survive getting focused as well as every single other class in the game. I also never assumed other players have more stability then necros, or that every class uses their stability skills. The reason other classes don’t do that is because they have access to all of the defensive mechanics necros do not. These mechanics have been listed in almost every single thread about necros poor sustain so I will not be relisting them.

The only real defensive mechanic necros have that can be easily taken and helps them avoid cc seriously is blinds. Necros have one blind on dagger off hand that has a huge travel time, and 2 main aoe blinds in plague 2 and well of darkness (both of which are easily walked out of and then ignored).

Also, you imply that all classes are equally susceptible to cc. If other professions could be cc’d easily, why are necros always the ones to get focused in teamfights? They have way more health then eles, and thieves so why would someone focus necros with a huge health pool and then death shroud. Could it possibly be that it is because necros are the easiest to cc and focus effectively. No that can’t be it you said differently.

Furthermore, I am in no way shape or form asserting conjecture or making assumptions. I watch TOL, watch youtubers who play gw2, read threads paying specific attention to what good players are saying, and in general study this game. The overwhelming majority of good pvp players will tell you necromancers lack escapes, and stability so you should focus them first. This would be fine if our damage was miraculous as it was right after and even a few months after the dhummfire patch, but after continuous nerfs to necromancers condition damage our output is not high enough to justify taking a necro over other classes.

Despite all this, your post aggravetes me because instead of trying to address what I said you implied opinions about my post and then used them as talking points as if they where products of my posts. I never said necros should be able to avoid all cc, or even came close to implying it. I never said anyone needed to do anything to beat people in this game, only that certain things are necessary to compete at the highest levels (such as a way to avoid being focused). I never told you to follow any criteria anywhere. I never assumed other classes take stability skills, but every class in TOL had some way of avoiding being focused easily (which is the current problem with necromancers).

MercilessLemurs.7459:

Dancing monkey said it right. Cc skills, especially on warrior, are easy to dodge. And, you shouldn’t be able to avoid all cc of a cc build.

Stability doesn’t avoid it, it gives us a very small period of time where the CC itself doesn’t affect us. Its very easy for the other person to simply hold on to their CC and wait, which is the point, it allows us to not just get hit once by CC, and then have to watch as they CC us into oblivion. We could have 50000000000000000 HP and it wouldn’t change anything (note that this is why bosses have Defiant and whatnot).

Bhawb.7408:

Stability doesn’t avoid it, it gives us a very small period of time where the CC itself doesn’t affect us. Its very easy for the other person to simply hold on to their CC and wait, which is the point, it allows us to not just get hit once by CC, and then have to watch as they CC us into oblivion. We could have 50000000000000000 HP and it wouldn’t change anything (note that this is why bosses have Defiant and whatnot).

Your justication for stability applies to engineer, thief, and mesmer as well. Only they do not have the HP to take the damage while stunned. Are you good with them getting similar levels of stability?

They all have very easy access to ways to get out of CC though, which is the entire point. What happens if a thief gets CCed? They use one of 8 different ways they have to either fully break it or at least create huge distance. They can also go into stealth if creating distance isn’t enough, or spam evade frames/dodges (this defined the pre-nerf S/D thief).

Mesmers also have stealth, ways to create large distances between them and enemies, access to invuln, and vigor.

Engineers are literally what a team takes if babysitting a Necro is too much work. They are the weaker DPS but un-focusable version of Necro. They get blocks, stunbreaks, ways to pick themselves off the ground, etc.

So no, you didn’t list anything special. You listed three classes all of whom have vastly better options to get out of and avoid subsequent CC than us.

Really? Then why are there 3 threads on dealing with necros on the engineer forums? As they are generally considered the bane of the engineer profession.

It might aid the discussion if you developed a more familiar understanding of other professions and their builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DonEllz.6312:

Condi necros though just need to get out of the game cos they are so cheesy and do not need stability cos they are too strong

If they’re so strong and cheesy, why do we see so few of them in tournaments? Those guys aren’t playing with some code of “honor”, they will do whatever it takes to win.

Necros are strong. You don’t see them that much in tourneys because tournaments are all about proper rotations around the whole map. What Necros lack to be more effective in Tourneys is mobility. IMO their lack in mobility and Stability is what balances the class.

If mesmers are not so out of the meta, you’d see a lot of Mesmer (Portal) + Necro pairings.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Really? Then why are there 3 threads on dealing with necros on the engineer forums? As they are generally considered the bane of the engineer profession.

It might aid the discussion if you developed a more familiar understanding of other professions and their builds.

Engineers have threads about us because we have better removal and more importantly transfers. 1v1 Condi Necro beats any condi build, which is our design. However, condi engineers being weak to necromancer has literally nothing to do with this discussion at all.

Bhawb.7408:

However, condi engineers being weak to necromancer has literally nothing to do with this discussion at all.

Yeah it kind of is due to the fact that you used this statement as an argument for your point some how

Bhawb.7408:

Engineers are literally what a team takes if babysitting a Necro

Bhawb.7408:

we have better removal and more importantly transfers.

So with the great removal and ability to transfer the soft CC on to your foe, why are you incapable of handling the limited hard CC with blinds or dodges?

dancing monkey… this is about team play not 1v1. in a 1v1 situation necro can beat other classes like warrior with a lot of effort and experience with our skills

as soon as you put necro in a team situation we become useless little more then a ping pong ball but when you put engineer in a team situation they are far from useless, sometimes being the only reason a point was kept during that fight

Dancingmonkey, you still haven’t addressed the issue this thread is trying to address once. Necros cannot in a team situation survive because they don’t have enough ways to escape from team fight levels of cc, or be immune to cc. Every other class has better ways to do this. By adding stability to a utility skill necros will be able to handle being focused for at least a fair amount of time. Until you address this, your points are simply off topic talk.

Actually there is another reason why the need for stability is a case i guess. The only really useful heal that a necro has (albeit it is very powerful) has a really obvious emote and is very easy to interrupt, as a thief i will lie in wait for this heal and interrupt it meaning the necro is a guaranteed kill in a few more seconds regardless of who he has to hide behind. Stability would help this.

However you really do have to think about the current zerker necros running around before asking for too much. whilst they might not be meta they are certainly very powerful, i mean lich form can literally 3 vs 1 anything it encounters and finish them off without even the need to stomp them. I even downed a thief in a single hit from lich form no joke, as chill of death trait procced with sigil of air and sigil of fire. I lolled at the time but seriously this class is no fun to encounter at all. giving them stability could be a massive problem.

litch form can be downed easily by a thief and the stability can be stolen from it

has happened to me many times when they stick to you like glue there is nothing you can do due to the aoe cast times being soooooooooooo slow