Guild Wars 2

i don’t think they universally replace EVERY other class / build.
having a bunker necro in pvp can be really nice to keep up the fear and push people out of the point so u can cap it .
thats y there so many bunkers in pvp . it is based around 3 point capture . pvp its self boxes u in :s

This is purely about damage builds (glass) not bunker necro. You’re not on the same page as the rest of the topic. Representing the validity of this argument is the abundance of thief in spvp.

Mauge we have been playing this game way too long to still be using the learn to play defense; it has turned into nothing but an insult at this point. Also remember we are talking about how they drive away glass cannon specs

As a thief myself I can say that video was extremely unrealistic for how thieves fight in spvp, they don’t repeatedly stealth and fish for backstabs. All a thief has to do vs GC mesmer is spam his target seeking attacks and dodge obvious attacks. Retreat and blink are both futile (heartseeker, shadow shot, steal, infil. signet); blurred frenzy will often get you hit right when it ends, and thief only needs to stealth to make you waste cooldowns or counter your stealth.

It is an absurdly difficult fight for the mesmer and saying every mesmer I’ve fought needs to L2P is just insulting to the entire community (cause I’m not that good)

Edit: Although there is something for teamwork; focusing the thief instantly is a good counter, or defending your teammates with CC… This is partly why s/d evade sprang up—it is very inefficient to try and focus evade thief when 4/5 attacks are going to miss. Either way I don’t think this is a good argument since it goes both ways (thief is the BEST at taking advantage of his teammates’ CC skills)

i don’t think more nerfs is the answer !

Stogzlol.4795:

This is purely about damage builds (glass) not bunker necro. You’re not on the same page as the rest of the topic. Representing the validity of this argument is the abundance of thief in spvp.

and yes i am … but how do u plan to out zerk the class that is meant to have the highest dps!
u need some armor and a even more of a strategy to take down your target.

unless u just ask 4 damage nerfs and totally change the definition of the class

how about
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Thieves-driving-away-damage-dealers/page/2#post3599543

- moar sustainded dmg
- less “spam” against other gc in a short time frame
- coupled with initregain traits and life on init use more sustain

i mean a lil more sustain cold be nice … but it goes against the idea of being a burst damage spec and getting in and out quickly and pumping out damage in a short time .
the longer u hang around as a thief gives people the time to target u and jump u :s

and u r punished for spamming skills that use initiative it cuts your damage .

and i got to say when they introduce ferocity i think it will hurt the thief the most because it is not like they r dropping armor or upping hp

caveman.5840:

and i got to say when they introduce ferocity i think it will hurt the thief the most because it is not like they r dropping armor or upping hp

In spvp future ferocity will = current crit damage

In WvW it will hurt some of the popular specs though (hidden killer); it might be warranted anyway, I don’t know

really it does not affect pvp? my mistake .
but don’t get me wrong element and mesmer could use some kinda buff
but i don’t think nerfing thief every time there is a problem is the answer

caveman.5840:

really it does not affect pvp? my mistake .
but don’t get me wrong element and mesmer could use some kinda buff
but i don’t think nerfing thief every time there is a problem is the answer

Yes nerfing thieves is the right way to go..Ele and Mesmer are already very strong….

lol this can go in circles for days
i know exactly how strong mesmers and eles are !
they r both very valuable team based classes as i argued in my earlier post !

lol i have seen elements kill thieves with one ride the lightning in wvw

caveman.5840:

lol i have seen elements kill thieves with one ride the lightning in wvw

I think we can now take everything you have said and will say, and throw it down the board.

Ladies and gentleman, I present to you; thief players.

mind u i am talking about glassy thief’s being hit!
but don’t act like it has never happened !
strong elements can hit a glassy thief with ride the lighting and if not kill them leave them with very low hp ! in wvw. a GLASSY thief would be running about 10,000 hp

but i have also seen people teleport from castle to camp in a blink of a eye and build rams in less than a min
so what ever

caveman.5840:

mind u i am talking about glassy thief’s being hit!
but don’t act like it has never happened !
strong elements can hit a glassy thief with ride the lighting and if not kill them leave them with very low hp ! in wvw. a GLASSY thief would be running about 10,000 hp

It has never happened. Ride the lightning at most could probably take half of a thieves life if both of them are running as glassy as possible.

caveman.5840:

lol i have seen elements kill thieves with one ride the lightning in wvw

-1

i am not even going to continue arguing this with out a video .
and and if u have traits in sa . your hp may be around 1200+.
mind u most thieves go for sa as it is your only condition removal
and if the element is quick and the thief does not get out quick enough u can kill them .
but most elements r a easy kill when it comes vs a thief
elements r ment to have the highest skill ceiling.

jeez all u do is attack with out offering more suggestions .
answer to every thing is nerf left and right

balancing a class based on 1v1 spvp glass cannon roaming meta alone is a bad idea.

Xaylin.1860:

Maugetarr.6823:

The linked video was an example of how knowledge of thieves and your own class can help you counter them with relative ease. Your specific response based on your class and equipment may vary. Since this thread was about thieves pushing out damage dealers, I thought an example of a shatter mesmer (i.e. damage dealer) would be an appropriate example to show. It is very possible for other classes besides mesmers to kill thieves.

I think you are having a slight misunderstanding here. He wasn’t talking about bringing Thieves down in the sense of beating them but in sense of tuning them down in a reasonable manner so they don’t universally replace other classes in PvP.

“Reasonable” as in added cast times, ICDs, and a 15-25% damage nerf. I don’t consider that reasonable, that’s a severe cut to thief effectiveness.

it is what the class it has ben built around !
and every thing everyone has offered totally changes the definition of the class ?
u can’t out zerk a class that is meant to be the highest dps
u need defense and strategy

i do not only play thief i have a guard mesmer ranger . deleted my war before they became as cool as they r now

so it is not like i am just talking from just one point of view i have experienced both sides of this story

caveman.5840:

i am not even going to continue arguing this with out a video .
and and if u have traits in sa . your hp may be around 1200+.
mind u most thieves go for sa as it is your only condition removal
and if the element is quick and the thief does not get out quick enough u can kill them .
but most elements r a easy kill when it comes vs a thief
elements r ment to have the highest skill ceiling.

jeez all u do is attack with out offering more suggestions .
answer to every thing is nerf left and right

Im sorry, but you are wrong. We can tell from your posts that you dont know what you are talking about and that you are a thief and probably a WvW player.

In no world other than thief-cry-land will a RtL ever one hit a thief leave alone outdamage a backstab. Thieves can LITERALLY one stab an elementalist out of the blue. There is no skill ceiling there. Now, you tell me, do you think it is skilful to pop a shield with 75 secs CD and have it say “block block block 10k backstab 4k HS, respawn” ?

There is no balance in that, if you cant see that then please, abandon thread, because despite all the “nerfs” thieves have received, the giant buffs with initiative, and despite all that, they still are at the top of the food chain in the DPS race, you can only imagine just how beyond out of control they were before.

Fortus.6175:

caveman.5840:

i am not even going to continue arguing this with out a video .
and and if u have traits in sa . your hp may be around 1200+.
mind u most thieves go for sa as it is your only condition removal
and if the element is quick and the thief does not get out quick enough u can kill them .
but most elements r a easy kill when it comes vs a thief
elements r ment to have the highest skill ceiling.

jeez all u do is attack with out offering more suggestions .
answer to every thing is nerf left and right

Im sorry, but you are wrong. We can tell from your posts that you dont know what you are talking about and that you are a thief and probably a WvW player.

In no world other than thief-cry-land will a RtL ever one hit a thief leave alone outdamage a backstab. Thieves can LITERALLY one stab an elementalist out of the blue. There is no skill ceiling there. Now, you tell me, do you think it is skilful to pop a shield with 75 secs CD and have it say “block block block 10k backstab 4k HS, respawn” ?

There is no balance in that, if you cant see that then please, abandon thread, because despite all the “nerfs” thieves have received, the giant buffs with initiative, and despite all that, they still are at the top of the food chain in the DPS race, you can only imagine just how beyond out of control they were before.

wow u took this way off topic lol
lol i never said a thief can’t drop a element with a back stab i know they can !
i said element has the highest skill ceiling not thief !
u must be kidding me lol . i am not saying anything the elements can do is unfair
and i said earlier the element could use a lil buff !

imposible to defend a thief . people reason with anger
class does not get a name like thief with out hate coming along with it
there so many things i can say to this but stop with the personal attacks and focus on and offer a balance idea .
and the only thing i have argued is buff team play. elements mesmers rangers could use some love and nerfing the thief is not the answer every time .

and 2 question … ???

“thieves have received, the giant buffs with initiative, and despite all that, they still are at the top of the food chain in the DPS race, you can only imagine just how beyond out of control they were before.”

is the thief not meant to be the highest dps class ?
how r u going to race the highest dps class in a dps race ?

caveman.5840:

lol this can go in circles for days
i know exactly how strong mesmers and eles are !
they r both very valuable team based classes as i argued in my earlier post !

lol i have seen elements kill thieves with one ride the lightning in wvw

ens.9854:

If you can’t understand what he means by “drop a thief in 1 rtl” then you are an egocentric moron and should stop posting before you embarrass yourself further

I don’t think you are looking at the original quote, in which he gives no context to whether the thief is at low or full health when being hit, though he does heavily imply that the thief is getting taken from full to none by Ride the Lightning, a skill with a 1.00 coefficient that would quite frankly be nearly impossible to kill someone with.
On the other hand, I doubt that the dude passed secondary school English, so any lack of comprehension is excusable on both sides.

i realy dont think their dmg is the main problem….i think its fine cause they realy are very weak as long as they arent evading, stealthing or running away in teamfights for example, and if you would nerf thiefes dmg you should nerf all dmg ingame, what should be done anyway imo.
i think S/D and D/P are fine at the moment…. what realy isnt fine imo is
1.: Pistol whip…..just too high dmg for a skill that stunnes and evades at the same time while its doing sick burst dmg…..not to mention the fact that its pretty much spammable…at least if you want to spam it….
2.: the mobility: its just insane…..a thief can decap the backnode and return to the teamfight on most maps in like 5-10 seconds. means the thiefs team will not even feel that he was missing for a little time…and cause no other class has such a insane mobility your only possibilitys to counter a thief is either having a dedicated close point deffer who stands there all day long, what never is a good idea, cause you will pretty much fight a 4v5 all game long, or having a thief yourself that can either decap the enemys point with the same speed as their thief, or prevent the enemy thief from decapping, cause he is equally fast.
i like comparing thiefs to mesmer and eles cause theese 3 classes are the burst-roamers imo….thief: good teamsupport, very good survivability due to evades, stealth and mobility, very high damage, insane mobility
off-ele: medium teamsupport, bad surviuvability, very high damage, good mobility
mesmer: very good teamsupport due to things like stealth, boonremove, portal, nullfield, dazes, eventually iol, good survivability due to ports/stealth, very high dmg, medium mobility

…this just states my impression as a player
as you can see thief is as good as the others in a few aspect, and if he isnt equally good at one point, he is even better.
so why would you take a mesmer or an ele over a thief if a thief can do everything they can do, just better?
imo it would be best if either thiefs mobility gets nerfed to a point where other classes are able to compete with him.

thief very good teamSUPPORT?there is no support,only stealth.A good mesmer beats every thief and is due clones also better in smallscale.with ele i agree this class is up.

Grebcol.5984:

thief very good teamSUPPORT?there is no support,only stealth.

only stealth…..and stunns, and boonsteal, and area weakness/spammable blast finishers….but yes, there is only stealth…and even if there only would be stealth, it would already be great teamsupport compared to the other mentioned classes, i guess you dont actually know how strong shadow refuge can be.
…mesmer ahs better teamsupport for sure, im sorry, didnt write that down correctly… edited it, thief: good teamsupport, mesmer: very good teamsupport

I think that’s the issue. Thieves are inherently a support-class in RPGs, as they excel at picking off stragglers.

Speaking about the conceptual stealth class in RPGs for a moment:

• You will win 1v1 confrontations you enter from stealth. That’s the basic underlying concept of your combat loadout.
• You will lose if you are ganged up on without serious backup, or if you are found before you can get the drop. You rely on that initiative and the straggler to present a target.
• In a party, this doesn’t change. Any party can benefit from someone specifically picking off the target standing in the back (the one with no one watching them directly). Or the archer standing to the side. Or the lone caster trying to run in for a suicide bombing run.

And this is the issue with stealth gameplay in MMOs. The very underlying RPG-idea behind a stealth class is unbalanced. It has to be, it’s the core concept of stealth. It overpowers you.
If Thieves couldn’t overpower single targets, their class identity would be gone, actually.

The issue is more in how this drives them away from groups, instead of towards where they can get cover by other players while executing single targets on the sidelines.

And yes, IMO Thieves cannot and should not be balanced in 1v1 situations. But then I think that balancing MMORPGs for 1v1 situations is incredibly stupid to begin with as it can and will ruin your overall game design and even its balance.

Carighan.6758:

• You will win 1v1 confrontations you enter from stealth.
• You will lose if you are ganged up on

This is the stamp mark of a scissor/paper/rock gameplay, which we can all agree is very toxic to a skill-based game.

Also, if you seriously believe numbers mean much to thieves, I highly recommend you to see a good or at least decent thief in a fight; stealth/evades/teleports almost always guarantee that the thief will get away most if not all of the time.

Only bad thieves who fight 4 v 1 tend to lose. 1 thief is more than enough to keep a group of players busy spamming AoE and swinging swords in the air like rave party idjots until they give up.

That is true, and I wasn’t talking much about Thieves as they are in GW2 right now, just about how an Assassin (the concept of a stealth class in a MMORPG) works in general.

And yes I am aware that it’s a rock/paper/scissors model, but you subscribe to that with stealth. Stealth’s underlying idea as a video game mechanic is the trade-off, giving up straight fighting chance for guaranteed or near-guaranteed victory if having the initiative, and then basically guaranteeing it.
As a result of it being difficult to re-acquire afterwards, you then automatically specialize into hunting a single target.

This was more directly visible in older games where you could only stealth out of combat, and hence would automatically start disadvantaged against any foe after the first (whom you can overpower).

Is it a good idea? Sure is.
Might just not be what players want. But then, I think sPvPers want a very different thing here. In fights above solo/duo, plain 1-to-1 balance actually leads to imbalance in groups. It’s odd, but things don’t add up linearly. Anyhow the thing is that in a larger team you need imbalance, strengths and weaknesses to promote good play and most importantly fun play.

Take TF2 as an example here. Played at pro-level for a long time, the classes are insanely imbalanced. Some classes nearly auto-win against other classes. Yet when you pit team against team, things are very very balanced.

And that’s the balance you need to aim for in PvE and WvW. Because while you could balance 1v1, it’d lead to fights which aren’t fun to play, and not even balanced, once people stop fighting in smallscale battles.

ManCaptain.3154:

Zero Day.2594:

Aza.2105:

…
doesn’t have any warning signs to counter play.
…

Warning Sign: Thief is in stealth. (and has a melee weapon set, dem back stabs)
Meaning: Possible burst of damage will happen, more likely if the thief is higher health than you.
Proposed Reaction: Run forward, sparsely dodge rolling to gain distance and stall till stealth runs out, possibly dodge a backstab as well.
People’s Reaction: Stand in place. Or, run around in circles (not creating distance). Or slowly walk backwards…

I love to spend all my endurance dodge rolling every time a thief enters stealth. I do it because I have 1000 dodges to spend. I also love how thief doesn’t lose stealth and backstab opportunity or any initiative for spamming skills 2,3,4,5 if they hit me while I’m dodging.

So I take it, you stand in place when the thief stealths?
Do you bend over as well?

Carighan.6758:

That is true, and I wasn’t talking much about Thieves as they are in GW2 right now, just about how an Assassin (the concept of a stealth class in a MMORPG) works in general.

And yes I am aware that it’s a rock/paper/scissors model, but you subscribe to that with stealth. Stealth’s underlying idea as a video game mechanic is the trade-off, giving up straight fighting chance for guaranteed or near-guaranteed victory if having the initiative, and then basically guaranteeing it.
As a result of it being difficult to re-acquire afterwards, you then automatically specialize into hunting a single target.

This was more directly visible in older games where you could only stealth out of combat, and hence would automatically start disadvantaged against any foe after the first (whom you can overpower).

Is it a good idea? Sure is.
Might just not be what players want. But then, I think sPvPers want a very different thing here. In fights above solo/duo, plain 1-to-1 balance actually leads to imbalance in groups. It’s odd, but things don’t add up linearly. Anyhow the thing is that in a larger team you need imbalance, strengths and weaknesses to promote good play and most importantly fun play.

Take TF2 as an example here. Played at pro-level for a long time, the classes are insanely imbalanced. Some classes nearly auto-win against other classes. Yet when you pit team against team, things are very very balanced.

And that’s the balance you need to aim for in PvE and WvW. Because while you could balance 1v1, it’d lead to fights which aren’t fun to play, and not even balanced, once people stop fighting in smallscale battles.

Precisely, which is why the thief complaints in this thread are neither justified nor helpful to the game. They excel in 1v1. The class is made for it for crying out loud.

I see two very different complaints here:
-Sword being too strong in sPvP
-Stealth being too strong as a mechanic.

Neither are simply pointing towards nerfing burst damage. If sword/dagger is too strong due to combined burst/evade, then nerf THAT damage. If stealth is proving too difficult, discuss how that can be changed, not about how they deal too much damage in general.

Thief players do not want to facetank combat situations. That’s the whole purpose of playing the class and the role they wish to fulfill. This is also why the complaints are not justified; in 1v1 scenarios, they can reset the fight as any class can, ready up again, and then have back at it. In WvW/GvG, thieves are almost sitting ducks which just wait for a zerg to break up after losing and pick off the remaining stragglers.

One can also not equate sPvP and WvW. The class balance/build order and damage values are FAR different. I highly doubt your warriors are hitting 17k Arcing Arrows in sPvP, your necros being invincible tank machines no matter what build, and mesmers being arguably the single best class for WvW.

The sPvP problem regarding thef viability/mesmer non-viability is the meta. The designated role currently is a roamer with high burst to kill squishies/stragglers. Thief simply does this better because that’s what thief does. It cannot, however, take on the role of any other class.

And many thief players are totally okay with this. We’re harshly restricted in what we can do, but in what we can do well, we excel in. To simply demand this be taken away or replaced with a totally different style of play by reducing damage across the board is absurd to many of us and makes no logical sense. This is especially applicable to D/D which by almost all players is considered a totally balanced build.

Your head is stuck in today’s meta deceiver. Those of us who have played since beta remember when the games were full of power builds and things were very fun. Now that thief has been figured out, even if you form a 4 man huddle around your ele, he is going to die. A glass ele can be enough on his own to turn the tables against the condi tanks in a team fight but nobody is allowed to play them because thief. Whether thief is strong 1v1 isn’t really the issue (their tourney builds are plenty beatable 1on1).

This is not a “who is the best roamer” thread; it’s a thread about thief being one of the key players in forcing a stale meta upon us.

Edit: to fix it OP suggests we need a way to make glass v glass fights last longer without making us useless vs tanks. So you either nerf the stickiness of thieves (tons of teleports/homing/evades) or you alter the functionality of their ‘burst’ skills to spread the damage out.

/endsynopsis

ens.9854:

Edit: to fix it OP suggests we need a way to make glass v glass fights last longer without making us useless vs tanks. So you either nerf the stickiness of thieves (tons of teleports/homing/evades) or you alter the functionality of their ‘burst’ skills to spread the damage out.

/endsynopsis

I’m not against some changes to thieves, but the above reads as “Let’s turn thieves into warriors with less HP, lower armor, and less sustain”. I’m all for lowering burst and spreading that damage out to other skills, so thieves hit consistently harder with less spike, but if you remove the teleports and evades on top of that, why wouldn’t you just roll a warrior?

There was a suggestion recently (I think it might have been linked in this thread) to change thief damage from frontloaded to backloaded. Instead of big burst skills from stealth followed by cleanup damage, redesign thieves to do more damage as the fight goes on – that way other glass specs aren’t being mauled without affecting a thieves ability to take down tougher builds.

evilapprentice.6379

I’m not against some changes to thieves, but the above reads as “Let’s turn thieves into warriors with less HP, lower armor, and less sustain”. I’m all for lowering burst and spreading that damage out to other skills, so thieves hit consistently harder with less spike, but if you remove the teleports and evades on top of that, why wouldn’t you just roll a warrior?

A thief with more hp, sustain and armor than he has now, but less hp, armor and sustain than a warrior, AND less burst, fewer teleports and fewer evades than thieves have now.

What kind of class is that?

Oh, a mesmer.

The nerf I would see would probably upset a lot of sPvPers:

• Remove most ability to re-stealth mid-combat.
• Increase burst potential and control.

If you’re alone, a thief can and will probably kill you. If he fumbles it and needs to run, he actually needs to leg it. :P

If we’re talking about reducing the damage of thieves, this would have to apply to every class, much like they’re attempting it for PvE/WvW via Ferocity. There is no other class in sPvP that is so reliant on / pidgeonholed into powerbuilds & Berserkers Amulet. You’re basically forced to spend 30 points into CS and use BA to do any damage at all. Not to mention that thieves have to drop a part of their class mechanic (stealth) in order to be viable.

I do however agree that thieves have a sort of monopoly on the roaming role, but then again thats the only role they can fullfill at all, unlike mesmers & Elementalists. Anet themselves mentioned in the past, that thieves are supposed to be the squishy spike class and that hopefully never changes. Compensating this suggested nerf by higher base damage values in order to drive thieves away from Berserker Amulet only results in a more bunkerish gameplay.

laquito.5269:

If we’re talking about reducing the damage of thieves, this would have to apply to every class, much like they’re attempting it for PvE/WvW via Ferocity. There is no other class in sPvP that is so reliant on / pidgeonholed into powerbuilds & Berserkers Amulet. You’re basically forced to spend 30 points into CS and use BA to do any damage at all. Not to mention that thieves have to drop a part of their class mechanic (stealth) in order to be viable.

I do however agree that thieves have a sort of monopoly on the roaming role, but then again thats the only role they can fullfill at all, unlike mesmers & Elementalists. Anet themselves mentioned in the past, that thieves are supposed to be the squishy spike class and that hopefully never changes. Compensating this suggested nerf by higher base damage values in order to drive thieves away from Berserker Amulet only results in a more bunkerish gameplay.

they said slippery. not squishy

so with the right buffs it could be possible to build for condition and to “bunker”. just bunker with a different style then guards or warrior would do. actual problem is they are to slippery for other gc with high dmgoutput at the same time. where as example powerrangers arent slippery enough, unlike they should be a little like thief in anets classphilosophie

Carighan.6758:

The nerf I would see would probably upset a lot of sPvPers:

• Remove most ability to re-stealth mid-combat.
• Increase burst potential and control.

If you’re alone, a thief can and will probably kill you. If he fumbles it and needs to run, he actually needs to leg it. :P

Yeah, it’d upset sPvPers because it’s a bad change.

Really, I don’t think thieves need to focus even more of their potential on the start of the fight- and that’s ultimately what this would do. They’re already (some would argue unhealthily) skewed to the first portion of the engagement, and doubling down on that would be pretty… Let’s be gentle and say “unappreciated”.

Sarrs.4831:

Carighan.6758:

The nerf I would see would probably upset a lot of sPvPers:

• Remove most ability to re-stealth mid-combat.
• Increase burst potential and control.

If you’re alone, a thief can and will probably kill you. If he fumbles it and needs to run, he actually needs to leg it. :P

Yeah, it’d upset sPvPers because it’s a bad change.

Really, I don’t think thieves need to focus even more of their potential on the start of the fight- and that’s ultimately what this would do. They’re already (some would argue unhealthily) skewed to the first portion of the engagement, and doubling down on that would be pretty… Let’s be gentle and say “unappreciated”.

That…will probably make Thief even more frontloaded than it is right now, which only further entrenches Thief in the role of the DPS roamer, because with so much frontloaded damage, Glass cannons would have their window of counter-engagement so shortened that they may not even be able to be playable – aside from another Thief.

Anyway, my idea of making Stealth a Boon seemed to be well received, but I don’t play a Thief myself, so I’ll make a new thread (amongst a million others calling for nerfs to Stealth) and hopefully there will be some Thieves that are sick of being pigeonholed into Berserker’s amulet and 1 role (DPS Roaming) to fully flesh out some buffs to Thief that would make it more of a bunker buster and less potent against other glass cannons.

MonMalthias.4763:

Anyway, my idea of making Stealth a Boon seemed to be well received, but I don’t play a Thief myself, so I’ll make a new thread (amongst a million others calling for nerfs to Stealth) and hopefully there will be some Thieves that are sick of being pigeonholed into Berserker’s amulet and 1 role (DPS Roaming) to fully flesh out some buffs to Thief that would make it more of a bunker buster and less potent against other glass cannons.

One thing that I’d be worried about would be Signet of Inspiration becoming a pseudo-Mass Invis, but that’s really a minor concern. I don’t think SoI is particularly popular in the meta at the moment, anyway.

Sarrs.4831:

MonMalthias.4763:

Anyway, my idea of making Stealth a Boon seemed to be well received, but I don’t play a Thief myself, so I’ll make a new thread (amongst a million others calling for nerfs to Stealth) and hopefully there will be some Thieves that are sick of being pigeonholed into Berserker’s amulet and 1 role (DPS Roaming) to fully flesh out some buffs to Thief that would make it more of a bunker buster and less potent against other glass cannons.

One thing that I’d be worried about would be Signet of Inspiration becoming a pseudo-Mass Invis, but that’s really a minor concern. I don’t think SoI is particularly popular in the meta at the moment, anyway.

Well that’s the thing. There can be a lot of unforeseen consequences when making such a fundamental change, so hopefully the thread can further brainstorm the niggles out.

As for Signet of Inspiration, Sensotix did feature a build using SoI that is an interrupt/boon share based build for teamfights using GS/SwSw or GS/Staff. Not sure as to its prevalence in the meta right now, but you can bet that it might become more popular if Stealth could be shared in such a way.

Fortus.6175:

I think we can all agreed that currently thieves are stealing (no pun intended) all the attention when it comes to damage dealer/roamer/squishy.

Their OP superb damage coupled with spammable blinds, teleports, dodges, stealth, backstabs is driving to extinction the few eles and mesmers that remain (today we lost 2 top mesmer players due to this, on top of the countless nameless elementalists which plead for fixes long time ago after getting the boot up their …..feet)

Backstabs, without any kind of interaction on the taker other than bending over and taking it regardless of skillfully blocking it, blinding or evading the attack.

Blinds, which reapply on literally every second and then there is the fact that every ranged skill on thieves (except autoattack) applies a blind through this field.

Teleports that cure conditions and break stuns, rendering any form of CC, soft or hard, useless. On top of not only having one, or 2, or 3, or 4 , or 5……. just as many as initiative permit, on top of 2 freebies on low CD.

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You cant give one class all the best tools for survival regardless of stats, give it the best single target damage and then allow it to take anybody else’s role and call it a day.

Suggestions; blind fields, same treatment the earth storm ele got; once every 4 seconds.
Teleports, increase initiative cost, give it 1/2 or 3/4 seconds precast, 1/2 activation.
Damage and boon stealing; needs an ICD and the damage needs some shaving down, specially spamable skills, something not along the lines of 8%, but rather 15-25%.

Thoughts?

At the end of the day, you can only bring 5 players into a match and sometimes they stack classes (typically they will not stack thieves). That mean, even if you wanted to, you cannot bring all classes into a spvp match. Someone’s going to get their feelings hurt. It is the undeniable truth.

Is it the thief fault that it is working as intended? Built for DPS and mobility, they are well suited as a roamer and far point assaulter. Look at the bunker gaurdian. How long have they been in the role? Do they need a nerf so that other classes get a chance? No because then you will see post like “Mesmer/Ele driving away damage dealers please buff thief so I can play sPvP again.”

What I’m trying to say is, the problem isn’t the class – it is the gamemode. They need to add more gamemodes so there’s a reason to take other classes. For example deathmatch, I wouldn’t mind a shatter mesmer in a team deathmatch.

Go play a power ranger. Get hit by pistol whip. Go re roll a thief.

Stealth should break on damage.

There’s just very little risk when playing a thief.

When i’m roaming I feel 100x safer on a thief than my ele or engi.

Lets be honest here, it’s not stealth, it’s invisibility of certain durations and just way too easy to come by considering how potent it is.

Eurantien.4632:

Go play a power ranger. Get hit by pistol whip. Go re roll a thief.

“Go play a condition thief in TPvP. Struggle and fail to be the least bit effective, regardless what class it is you’re actually fighting. Go Re-roll a ranger”

It’s not a compelling argument when you make it a point to compare a functioning spec for a particular class to a dysfunctional spec of another class.

phaeris.7604:

Stealth should break on damage.

There’s just very little risk when playing a thief.

When i’m roaming I feel 100x safer on a thief than my ele or engi.

Lets be honest here, it’s not stealth, it’s invisibility of certain durations and just way too easy to come by considering how potent it is.

It baffles me how this suggestion keeps on popping up non stop. Literally every class can aoe themselves several times a second. This would make every backstab build instantly useless EXCEPT against glass cannons that they already one shot and already take by surprise.

There is no logic but that of somebody who hates losing to thief. The idea is to make them WORSE against glass cannons, not force them to run pistol condi or evade spam against everybody else.

evilapprentice.6379:

Eurantien.4632:

Go play a power ranger. Get hit by pistol whip. Go re roll a thief.

“Go play a condition thief in TPvP. Struggle and fail to be the least bit effective, regardless what class it is you’re actually fighting. Go Re-roll a ranger”

It’s not a compelling argument when you make it a point to compare a functioning spec for a particular class to a dysfunctional spec of another class.

no but it shows u that some specs are broken / overperforming and some other specs either are ok but gets outshined by broken/ overperfoming ones or are simply bad.

regardless how u see it either one needs massive buffs that would resume in powercreep or one need nerfs in some aspects.

thief isnt the only one that overperforming a role

@MIrra.3604
its more a problem that thief is a nearly a hardcounter to ele and mesmer. not only that he is better in all aspects he can easier and reliable kill both.

Phantaram.1265:

I think most people are missing the point of this thread.

Yes the meta is super tanky and within it thieves are just average. Take away the super tanky meta and it will be about thieves. Mesmer and ele, the other mobile power squishy roamers, won’t see the light of day because thieves are so far ahead of them and actually counter the mesmer and ele themselves.

There are layers of broken things in this game. The first one that needs peeled back is the tanky meta, after that there are other things that need peeled back. Thief is one of them.

What garbage.

Mesmer is by no means countered by thief. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that they have a theoretical disadvantage against thieves (i.e. they have 5k more health in exchange for thief’s 7% damage reduction, Mes has a little less burst than thief but a little more sustain, Mes has tons of AoE while Thief has great single-target damage, etc)- in fact, if anything, mesmers should have an advantage against thieves, simply on the basis of their wider range of flexibility (see my mesmer build in my signature) along with very, very slight pluses in a wide number of other areas.

Elementalist, on the other hand, is just a generally bad class at the moment. I have no problem crushing eles with any profession. Their base stats are the weakest of all classes (lowest base health and light armor), their heals are downright awful, their supposed “flexibility” is actually very limited, their damage skills are unreliable at best, their traits are extremely limited, their condition removal is weak, and so on. This has absolutely nothing to do with thieves being “overpowered” or some kind of stupid idea like that. Heck, you can’t even use the (already pathetic) excuse that S/D thieves are a strong counter to eles since there are virtually no players using S/D any more (Sizer was asked by his team to change weapon sets).

You might be a good player, Phantaram, but your comments are so off-target that I feel that you’re shooting way out of your league here. There’s absolutely nothing to support your comments; what little evidence has been provided by a large number of players supporting your ideas is either easily refutable with objective analysis (i.e. just because Sizer was “hunting” Helseth didn’t mean he was being particularly helpful to his team; in fact, looking at his gameplay, he wasn’t really doing as much for his team as Helseth was doing for his) or by determining the actual root of the problem, as I did with the elementalist.

Eurantien.4632:

Go play a power ranger. Get hit by pistol whip. Go re roll a thief.

Rangers are, IMO, even worse than eles at the moment (except, of course, for stupid Spirit Ranger specs). Looking at some of the community’s thoughts regarding this subject, you find that an absolutely overwhelming majority of players think that Ranger is either the class that is in the most need of help or the second in most need of help.