Guild Wars 2

my suggestions:

- merge speedy conduit with hardy conduit into one minor trait
- move harmonious conduit into grandmaster minor trait and extent the dmg buff duration to 10 secs
- move imbued melodies as an replacement for harmonious conduit
- reduce the cooldown for attunement recharge after overload to 14 secs imo, it kinda felt punishing and not like rewarding at all if you can`t swap to that attunement for more than 14 secs just for that skill (this last BWE was like 17 secs…kind of ridiculous and before we had a trait which reduced this time but it was changed)
- give us some kind of shout trait (maybe similiar like warriors?)
- unstable conduit should give auras on starting overload
- heat sync should at least copy boons elementalists can generate themselves -> might, regeneration, swiftness, protection, fury but not stability + other boons you only get from allies like quickness/resistance

Eles can generate stability themselves… though I think Karl is going to use the nerf hammer and do a squishy normalization on durations, much like “We Heal as One!”. #RIPHeatSync

maplemist.5897:

Powerful Aura and Tempest Shouts simply does not interact well with each other.

Aura from shouts are getting double applications frequently, which is fine with Zephyr’s Boon, Elemental Shielding, and Element Bastion, since you can get double boons or heal from it.

But I think it could be nice if Powerful Aura can actually modifies the number of allies that affected by the aura from shout to 10 instead of 5 doubles? It could be nice as a support in a raid squad.

About the tooltip, maybe adding an extra line to distinguish Number of Enemy Targets (affected by the condition) and Number of Allies (affected by the auras) as an QoL?

I would love to see the 10 target effect for both auras and WH boons.

I think the ideal behind tempest is you do not need powerful aura becuse all the auras but overload ones (would not be too much to ask for these to be aoe too) are build in aoe. It would be nice to go aura support tempest with out needed to go into powerful aura and take something else in water OR comply get out of the water line for max boon on auras.

Jski.6180:

maplemist.5897:

Powerful Aura and Tempest Shouts simply does not interact well with each other.

Aura from shouts are getting double applications frequently, which is fine with Zephyr’s Boon, Elemental Shielding, and Element Bastion, since you can get double boons or heal from it.

But I think it could be nice if Powerful Aura can actually modifies the number of allies that affected by the aura from shout to 10 instead of 5 doubles? It could be nice as a support in a raid squad.

About the tooltip, maybe adding an extra line to distinguish Number of Enemy Targets (affected by the condition) and Number of Allies (affected by the auras) as an QoL?

I would love to see the 10 target effect for both auras and WH boons.

I think the ideal behind tempest is you do not need powerful aura becuse all the auras but overload ones (would not be too much to ask for these to be aoe too) are build in aoe. It would be nice to go aura support tempest with out needed to go into powerful aura and take something else in water OR comply get out of the water line for max boon on auras.

Exactly. I have been playing around with Air/Earth/Tempest because I don’t feel the need for powerful auras. The only thing I am missing is condition removal, which might make ER necessary over the shout heal.

The Great Al.2546:

Jski.6180:

maplemist.5897:

Powerful Aura and Tempest Shouts simply does not interact well with each other.

Aura from shouts are getting double applications frequently, which is fine with Zephyr’s Boon, Elemental Shielding, and Element Bastion, since you can get double boons or heal from it.

But I think it could be nice if Powerful Aura can actually modifies the number of allies that affected by the aura from shout to 10 instead of 5 doubles? It could be nice as a support in a raid squad.

About the tooltip, maybe adding an extra line to distinguish Number of Enemy Targets (affected by the condition) and Number of Allies (affected by the auras) as an QoL?

I would love to see the 10 target effect for both auras and WH boons.

I think the ideal behind tempest is you do not need powerful aura becuse all the auras but overload ones (would not be too much to ask for these to be aoe too) are build in aoe. It would be nice to go aura support tempest with out needed to go into powerful aura and take something else in water OR comply get out of the water line for max boon on auras.

Exactly. I have been playing around with Air/Earth/Tempest because I don’t feel the need for powerful auras. The only thing I am missing is condition removal, which might make ER necessary over the shout heal.

Other then running arcain your already losing condition removal if your going powerful aura. Maybe running domain skin would help some if you have a good bit of healing power to combo with healing on auras and self healing to keep above that 90%.
Though i would love to see an rune set with removing condition on aura application hehe.

Yeah so just to reiterate a few key points, I find that powerful auras should be folded in with elemental bastion for the sake of build diversity and synergy between traitlines, and that tempest needs condition removal on one of the shouts somewhere, preferably personal condition removal, but ally cleanse is good too.

I also think that the minor traits should be looked at and improved and that the stability stack from harmonious conduit be added to hardy conduit, and that the minor traits should do something supportive upon completing an overload successfully, such as giving allies super speed or stability for general support purposes, since I feel as though the biggest problem with the minor traits is that they’re selfish and don’t support allies like Tempest ideally is supposed to.

Other than that, I’m thrilled to play Tempest at launch, and I had so much fun playing it during the last beta!

Imo, at least 2 stacks of stability for 4 seconds needs to be baseline for overloading.

Especially warranted since ele has to deal with that ridiculous recharage for overloading.

I agree with those who want to be able to switch attunements while channeling overload. It’s something I’ve gotten so used to with Ele skills, that changing classes always makes me accidentally cancels channels (weapon swap the equivalent of attunement change).

Change chaos shield effect from effect into aura, its looks so aura alike and also doesn’t stack or I don’t remeber. Then pust chaos shield and light aura into tempest line somewhere.

trait eye of the storm to drain 50% energy from enemies, call it dehydration effect cuz all that fancy lightning could make one a little drought and don’t count draining energy as going into combat. I see that you don’t want decrease cd nor give shocking aura there.

OVERLOADS:
Please remove the casttime/channeltime.
Make each overload into a spell that is active around you
or a form
that lasts for ~4 sec (as long as the casttimechanneltime currently is).
This way you can dodge while its active.

Make the stability pulse every second/more stacks of stability.

Keep that it still locks you out of your spells as it currently does.

Reduce the waittime and the cooldowns of the overloads:
I would say 2 to 3 sec waittime and 12-14 sec cooldown max.

FIRE:
Increase the fire overload radius from 180 to 360.
Make the tornado around you destroy projectiles.
A needed defensive added to fire.

EARTH:
In addition, while overloading earth will make you gain Obsidean flesh (the earth focus #5 ability). A needed defensive added to earth.

LIGHTNING:
In addition, when you start the overload you will gain shocking aura.
A needed defensive added to lightning.

WATER:
This overload just doesnt work for its purpose.
You cannot wait 5 seconds till the overload is ready, so that you can cleanse conditions.

Conditions need to be cleansed the moment they are applied.
You cannot predict that conditions need cleansing right after 5 seconds,
unless a scenario is scripted.
You cannot set camp in water attunement after the 5 seconds waittime, till conditions need cleansing. You cant keep waiting in there.

So either this overload needs to be instant/1 second waittime, or the condition cleansing needs to be put somewhere else in the tempest play.
On other water spells/utility through a trait for example.

The tempest Elite Rebound spell:
A cool spell but the heal needs to be a lot larger, otherwise you basically die on the hit you take after rebound.

The Tempest utility spells:
Reduce their cooldowns to a more fair number.
They are to long atm.

HOPE:
I hope to see a few changes like these.

I believe that the Tempest has potential and can be good with some relatively small changes.

The overloads should be game changers. Like, devastating to the opponent if air and fire are completed, and team saving if water and earth are completed. Think about it -

lowest HP, lowest armor, melee-range, 4 second channel after 6 second buildup, no dodges, no skill casting that isnt insta-cast, no attunement swap which is core mechanic. There are no riskier skills in the entire game.

The result of this should not be similar to just casting regular skills instead, it should be far, far better. Still not seeing this in BWE3.

A note: With current speedy conduit you can run around in permaswiftness swaping and overloading and swaping immidiateley … such button mashing just when running is awful. Make it fixed movement speed an evry tempest will be happy :-).

The Great Al.2546:

The overloads should be game changers. Like, devastating to the opponent if air and fire are completed, and team saving if water and earth are completed. Think about it -

lowest HP, lowest armor, melee-range, 4 second channel after 6 second buildup, no dodges, no skill casting that isnt insta-cast, no attunement swap which is core mechanic. There are no riskier skills in the entire game.

The result of this should not be similar to just casting regular skills instead, it should be far, far better. Still not seeing this in BWE3.

The Earth overload last weekend was pretty devastating though…cripple, bleed, immobilize and self protection + stability….then if you had a teammate (or yourself) standing inside the resulting storm dust devil = 30sec of protection. Is foe cripple/bleed/immobilize +self stab + self/ally protection for 30sec (and possible magnetic aura if traited), all on a 20sec cooldown not devastating or team saving? The downfalls are really only “20sec cooldown and lockout if you swap attunements”…on a tanky earth line condi build, not being able to be crit against while still adding lots of durability to allies seems pretty crazy…and you could still swap out to fire, add some might and burn.

Air overload was pretty crazy and could add some extra burst if you were on a team facing fewer foes. The storm itself strikes up to 5 foes equally number of times but you get more lightning strikes per ally afterwards, all striking like 1 or 2 foes can really hurt.

The water overload is a bit more dependant on your build. It can give you a little extra sustain if you don’t have the water line (I ran with Fire/Air/Tempest so no heal or regen on water swap) so those builds leaned to the extreme of “limited healing” has a bit of extra sustain. On the opposite spectrum, a build aimed at lots and lots of healing, Tempest offers a lot, including a strong team heal in Wash the Pain Away. If you wanted to be a “Water Elementalist” with lots of heals, Tempest gives you that niche option.

They could do something a bit different, like increasing condi damage while you’re under the effects of protection. It could stack to a maximum of 5 times, increasing the attribute by +30 or something.

Ok, that was crazy. I’m just out of ideas. Don’t judge me!

This is something I hope karl will keep in mind during the next round of changes

Overloads are not supposed to be spammed, there is an opportunity cost

Cast/Channel time are necessary to maintain balance

Any downgrade of the overload system will lead to abuse like 4 d/d eles in ESL, with no harsh punishment for bad play

Tempest can access great condi clear by opportune traiting, anything more and people will abuse it by stacking water/arcana to obtain bunkers immune to condi ( worst than diamond skin)

*Damage is fine as it is if you trait for damage(zerk/marauder), anything more and people will abuse celestial amulet in a new way( tempest becomes d/d 2.0 pre Sept patch)

In my opinion no huge buffs are necessary, just some ironing there and there :

-Lightning Orb = change it to a 5 circling orbs around the ele, each orb has a 450 base damage and applies 2s weakness+1 stack of vulnerability for 10s, each orb disappear after impact ; radiu 240 – 8s duration .

-Water overload and rebound need a 40% number increase( around 1200 more hit point)

-Maybe have heat sync apply 2-3s resistance in 600 range aoe?

For the rest….yeah I kittening love Tempest gj karl

I am with supreme. It i close to work fine. Water overload is the only one with problems.
I see a bit push in shouts needed (instant flash freeze/20% reduction and cleanse on wash the pain away) not overloads. I did not use WH much so i can´t tell. It felt slow and underperforming compared to focus.

Leo G.4501:

The Earth overload last weekend was pretty devastating though…cripple, bleed, immobilize and self protection + stability….then if you had a teammate (or yourself) standing inside the resulting storm dust devil = 30sec of protection. Is foe cripple/bleed/immobilize +self stab + self/ally protection for 30sec (and possible magnetic aura if traited), all on a 20sec cooldown not devastating or team saving? The downfalls are really only “20sec cooldown and lockout if you swap attunements”…on a tanky earth line condi build, not being able to be crit against while still adding lots of durability to allies seems pretty crazy…and you could still swap out to fire, add some might and burn.

Air overload was pretty crazy and could add some extra burst if you were on a team facing fewer foes. The storm itself strikes up to 5 foes equally number of times but you get more lightning strikes per ally afterwards, all striking like 1 or 2 foes can really hurt.

The water overload is a bit more dependant on your build. It can give you a little extra sustain if you don’t have the water line (I ran with Fire/Air/Tempest so no heal or regen on water swap) so those builds leaned to the extreme of “limited healing” has a bit of extra sustain. On the opposite spectrum, a build aimed at lots and lots of healing, Tempest offers a lot, including a strong team heal in Wash the Pain Away. If you wanted to be a “Water Elementalist” with lots of heals, Tempest gives you that niche option.

Earth overload was bugged but it’s nice to see it being used as an argument.

I played mostly in dungeons, and i found that it significantly weaker than the standart ele builds in a 5-man party. Through the access to a lot of auras and the playstyle of d/wh you get a lot of survivability but to the expense of the damage of the staff and the water/arcane traitline. However, i think a x/wh build can be viable with a few tweaks in the traits and a demage increase for the main hand options.

Overloading
• effects of fire, water, air overloading feels strong …
…BUT:
• 5s waiting time is too much, maybe needs a trait that reduces the waiting time
• 20s cooldown is too much, needs a cooldown reduction trait
• they dont trigger signet of restoration, suggest: 1 trigger per 1s

Shouts
• using 3 or more shouts is not viable, therefor the shout trait feels underwhelming.
• “Shock and Aftershock!”: You should decrease the cooldown. IMHO: the 5s of magnetic aura can be reduced to 3s, since it is party wide.
• “Rebound.”: Just giving 1 aura on expiration feels too weak.

Traits
• Latent Stamina: could use some more vigor OR more endurance
• Unstable Conduit and Harmonious Conduit: The cost of waiting 5s AND the full channel of the overload is to much for the little effects. Waiting 5s and the attunement going on cooldown should be enough to warrant the effects. The effort is much higher than compared to other traits for expample warrior’s ’berserker’s power’ that gives a 10%-20% buff for 10s after using a burst skill.
• Harmonious Conduit: the duration of the buff is too short
• Tempestuous Aria: needs cooldown reduction for shouts, IMHO using shouts that are relative high cooldown the 2s of might should be increased to 3 or more stacks of might.
• Lucid Singularity: could add the cooldown reduction for overloading

• Suggestion for changing the Harmonious Conduit trait: give the buff to 5 allies, add a 20s cooldown on that buff.

Warhorn
• in PVE: dagger and scepter main hands needs to be buffed for a good x/wh build.
• Water Globe: the Globe should be around the tempest.
• Wildfire: Cooldown of 30s is to much for a Sc/WH+LH build for mightstacking
• Heat Sync: when only spreading might, this skill could be just a blast finisher.
• Heat Sync: IMO this skill should spread (at least) might, regeneration and swiftness.

The biggest issue is limiting build options by sacrificing a major slot to allow us to have stability while overloading. I insist stability should fit into a minor trait slot. It should be baseline.

The stunbreak, on the other hand, should be an option.

rotten.9753:

Earth overload was bugged but it’s nice to see it being used as an argument.

Oh, I realized Earth Overload was bugged. But people still commented on Earth Overload being underwhelming (HAH….no it wasn’t…it was POWERFUL). Even if they don’t comment on earth overload being underwhelming, people practically didn’t comment on the it. Granted, I sort of tried not to acknowledge it much but that’s a different story from practically calling the current overload underpowered.

My hybrid build murdered stuff with earth! I’d imagine celestial would at least make great use of it.

The same argument can be taken for Berserker rifle. The double hit is OP but it actually did make rifle quite decent! You didn’t hear people say “Rifle is weak!” in the last BWE, just that it was broken.

Yes the protection duration of eath overload was huge but it didn´t feel OP.

The tempest was better in beta 3 and felt somewhat fun to play. But I never had a feeling that I was doing something really new or useful that other classes can not do. And it definitely doesn’t compete with my staff or D/D ele.

Right now I believe the fix is not by changing numbers or altering a few minor traits. I think the mechanism of the elite spec needs to be changed dramatically.

First of all, making us stay in one attunement for a long time or locking us out of an attunement is too much to pay for the current overloads. Overloads are fun and they seem to be getting to the right place, but what they offer, I can do the same with the existing weapons already and since active battle usually asks for different skills I rather keep all my weapon skill options open instead of turning myself into an obvious target that people will easily avoid.

Instead of using the existing mechanism where attunements get a long cooldown, I’d rather see a cooldown on the overloads themselves. Make it like 40 or even 60 seconds per overload, so they can’t be spammed, or give a global 20 seconds or so cooldown on them.

Right now we have to pay too much in order to use overloads (long cd on attunement + dropping a useful traitline).

To make it worthwhile to drop one of the existing traitlines, I think the overload change should go a bit further. They should be an aoe you can place on range, either by placing on ground or on target. Souns OP maybe, but I can’t think of another way to make the tempest really viable.

Making the Overloads ground-targeted actually seems like a nerf to me. Anyone with half a brain would move out of the AoE. As they are currently, you can chase people around while Overloading, due to Speedy Conduit and Overload Earth’s cripple. I’d rather there be a Major trait to reduce Overload charge-up time to 2.5 seconds replacing Harmonious Conduit, which in turn should be part of a minor trait IMO.

Waiting in one attunement to unlock the overcharge ability to then channel 4 seconds which is impossible under pressure just to get locked out of your attunement is a clunky triple punishment mechanic. Oh i forgot you have to spend traitpoints on that aswell, totally worth it…. None of the given effects justify the quadro punishment for using tempest.

Blackjack.5621:

Waiting in one attunement to unlock the overcharge ability to then channel 4 seconds which is impossible under pressure just to get locked out of your attunement is a clunky triple punishment mechanic. Oh i forgot you have to spend traitpoints on that aswell, totally worth it…. None of the given effects justify the quadro punishment for using tempest.

It only is if your running though all your atuments and for some reason you have more then 4 atuments to run though. At a point your atuments will be on cd or you will need to stay in something longer due to what going on at the time. 5 sec due to how the base ele class works is a very ok thing to do with cast time and after cast. That and a lot of ele auto attks (out side of scepter) are good.
The big thing about playing tempest is choosing when to overload and when not to. That the skill of the class and for a lot of ppl use to eles spam like game play its hard to get use to it.

Karl McLain.5604:

Bam!
Thanks everyone in advance for your constructive feedback. Please keep in mind that we’re getting close to day zero and that the smaller the change, the more likely we’ll be able to discuss and action that feedback. This isn’t the end, however. We’ll continue to make changes, when necessary, after HoT releases, as well.

Thanks!
-Karl

Karl? In the interests of making the Tempest more cohesive and flow better, since their central shtick is a long channel, could we get “shock and Aftershock!” and “Flash-freeze!” to have zero casting time so all of the non-elite shouts can be used during an overload? Honestly the elite is frustrating enough that putting it on “I am so the guy that just saved you” zero cast time might be the right way to give it some much needed pizazz also .

Talking about simple things to fix: Why isn’t the air shout giving a shock aura?

First of all the cooldown is extremely long for a simple stun break specially considering the new stun breaker the warrior got is on a 10 second cooldown.

Second of all why would a shocking aura be considered overpowered when the Druid can daze on weapon swap?

Needs to be some logic behind the elite professions balancing.

Supreme.3164:

Tempest can access great condi clear by opportune traiting, anything more and people will abuse it by stacking water/arcana to obtain bunkers immune to condi ( worst than diamond skin)
l

By that lane of thinking water/arcana/earth can make bunkers condi immune already. And not only they aren’t, but they also cant dish any kind of usable damage. It really depends on the type of cleanse they give.

Still, while I think that condi cleanse can be totally balanced and make eles lees water dependent by doing so, the thing that needs condition cleanse more than a tempest trait is the warhorn itself.

ADD CONDITION DAMAGE TRAITS.

In a vacuum, the Tempest shouts look ok – but too long CDs. But after looking at what the Chronomancer is getting for new utilities, it’s apparent there is a massive power gap. For a 45sec CD compare these two utilities.

Eye of the Storm
Movement speed is greatly increased. Superspeed (5s): Movement speed is greatly increased.
Radius: 600
Breaks stun
VS
Well of Precognition
Evade all attacks. Blur (1s): Evade all attacks.
Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted. Stability (1s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted.
Endurance Gained: 30
Number of Targets: 5
Pulses: 3
Duration: 3s
Radius: 240
Breaks Stun
Combo Combo Field: Ethereal
Range: 900

That is just a single example, but basically every new Chrono well makes the new Tempest shouts look silly. Perhaps there is a desire to give weaker skills to the ele, since it’s already a powerful class. But Mesmer is not exactly weak atm either.

How about adding: Boons cannot be removed from you after you have completed an overload (5 sec) to the 10% damage trait.

Xillllix.3485:

How about adding: Boons cannot be removed from you after you have completed an overload (5 sec) to the 10% damage trait.

Adding condition damage as well would be nice.

Jski.6180:

Blackjack.5621:

Waiting in one attunement to unlock the overcharge ability to then channel 4 seconds which is impossible under pressure just to get locked out of your attunement is a clunky triple punishment mechanic. Oh i forgot you have to spend traitpoints on that aswell, totally worth it…. None of the given effects justify the quadro punishment for using tempest.

It only is if your running though all your atuments and for some reason you have more then 4 atuments to run though. At a point your atuments will be on cd or you will need to stay in something longer due to what going on at the time. 5 sec due to how the base ele class works is a very ok thing to do with cast time and after cast. That and a lot of ele auto attks (out side of scepter) are good.
The big thing about playing tempest is choosing when to overload and when not to. That the skill of the class and for a lot of ppl use to eles spam like game play its hard to get use to it.

A couple of points:

1. You don’t seem to understand the concept of opportunity cost, so let me spell it out. Every way you choose to spend your time has to be weighed against what you could be doing otherwise. In this case, because of the restrictive time requirements, you are losing out on a LOT of healing, damage, cc, and boons.

2. Ele auto-attacks (besides lightning whip and fireball) are just bad…SO BAD.

3. Eles can’t choose when to use an overload situationally, as kitten pre-charge means it has to be a deliberate choice to wait it out and use that overload. Because autos are so bad and the class is balanced around attunement swapping and using skills to make up for it, and you don’t have 5s worth of skills in most attunements besides fire, you will never reach a point where you say “hmmm…this overload is ready, should I use it.” Instead, you will be saying “hmmm…should I stand here wasting 2s to start an overload? Will my team be able to capitalize on whatever effect it has (b/c they are backloaded) 6s from now?”

4. The only overload semi-usable (moderately) in pvp was air overload with fresh air because
a. Air has a good autoattack (lighting whip)
b. Fresh air removing the CD risk from overloading
c. Air overload having the best damage/range combo of all the overloads.
d. Shocking aura is the best aura
And even when heavily incentivized, trying to use air overload STILL felt clunky and rarely worth the cost.

Given all that, overload costs MUST come down. Look at all the incentives they have tried to put on overloads: each skill takes up more than half your screen (describing the extra boons, auras, fields, effects, etc.). Even with all that, they still are barely worth casting even when lowering the cost as much as possible. To justify the current costs + risks each skill would have to basically 1-shot someone. In fact, look at almost every channeled skill that is backloaded in reward (like killshot): the costs have continually been reduced because they were unusable.

-make overloads instantly ready to cast, because being locked out after is already punishment enough.

-buff water overload heal ticks at least by double.

-lower the cd on shock and after shock

-merge our master and grandmaster minor traits and come up with something for the vacant slot.

Then I think we’ll be “in a good spot”

Suggestion for Overload:
Add a bar similar to warriors(with 2 separators)
bar fills while in combat
bar does not empty out of combat
bar empties when changing attunements

When Overloading the skill improves biased on how much of the bar is full.
lv1(takes 7 sec) Minor skill.
lv2(takes 30sec) Current overload with more power
lv3(takes 60sec) Massive effect that leaves a field for a long period.
Using Overload knocks player out of that attunement for 20sec.
If you where using fire you move to water. Water>air air>earth earth>fire

Example
Earth Attunement
lv1 blast(combo) the current area, damaging and blinding the enemy.
lv2 Ride a rock dealing crippling to enemies and protection to allies. Weakened enemies are knocked back by this.
lv3 Create a Large sandstorm(smoke field, 1200 range) that pulses each second(10 sec duration) blinding and damaging foes.

Honestly I thought this is how they worked when they first announced them.

BlackBeard.2873:

Jski.6180:

Blackjack.5621:

Waiting in one attunement to unlock the overcharge ability to then channel 4 seconds which is impossible under pressure just to get locked out of your attunement is a clunky triple punishment mechanic. Oh i forgot you have to spend traitpoints on that aswell, totally worth it…. None of the given effects justify the quadro punishment for using tempest.

It only is if your running though all your atuments and for some reason you have more then 4 atuments to run though. At a point your atuments will be on cd or you will need to stay in something longer due to what going on at the time. 5 sec due to how the base ele class works is a very ok thing to do with cast time and after cast. That and a lot of ele auto attks (out side of scepter) are good.
The big thing about playing tempest is choosing when to overload and when not to. That the skill of the class and for a lot of ppl use to eles spam like game play its hard to get use to it.

A couple of points:

1. You don’t seem to understand the concept of opportunity cost, so let me spell it out. Every way you choose to spend your time has to be weighed against what you could be doing otherwise. In this case, because of the restrictive time requirements, you are losing out on a LOT of healing, damage, cc, and boons.

2. Ele auto-attacks (besides lightning whip and fireball) are just bad…SO BAD.

3. Eles can’t choose when to use an overload situationally, as kitten pre-charge means it has to be a deliberate choice to wait it out and use that overload. Because autos are so bad and the class is balanced around attunement swapping and using skills to make up for it, and you don’t have 5s worth of skills in most attunements besides fire, you will never reach a point where you say “hmmm…this overload is ready, should I use it.” Instead, you will be saying “hmmm…should I stand here wasting 2s to start an overload? Will my team be able to capitalize on whatever effect it has (b/c they are backloaded) 6s from now?”

4. The only overload semi-usable (moderately) in pvp was air overload with fresh air because
a. Air has a good autoattack (lighting whip)
b. Fresh air removing the CD risk from overloading
c. Air overload having the best damage/range combo of all the overloads.
d. Shocking aura is the best aura
And even when heavily incentivized, trying to use air overload STILL felt clunky and rarely worth the cost.

Given all that, overload costs MUST come down. Look at all the incentives they have tried to put on overloads: each skill takes up more than half your screen (describing the extra boons, auras, fields, effects, etc.). Even with all that, they still are barely worth casting even when lowering the cost as much as possible. To justify the current costs + risks each skill would have to basically 1-shot someone. In fact, look at almost every channeled skill that is backloaded in reward (like killshot): the costs have continually been reduced because they were unusable.

Every way you choose to spend your time has to be weighed against what you could be doing otherwise

That’s the whole point, overloads are not there to be spammed, the concept is solid and you need to weight the overload against normal rotations in every situation.

Tempest offers a gameplay with a certain skillcap and people here are asking to remove that skillcap by deleting cast/channel time, basically transforming tempest in D/D 2.0 where there is little to no consequence for making a mistakes ( like overloading at the wrong moment)

I’m sorry that I need to be so blunt with people but…It’s about time we get rid of that way of playing ele, people charging headfirst and cantrips in hands inside any battle, doesn’t matter just charge in spamming RoF, burning speed whatever…if losing too much health, swap to water and try again…

The only overload that needs a look at it’s water, rest is more than fine….d/d has left people with really bad habits…

Supreme.3164:

That’s the whole point, overloads are not there to be spammed, the concept is solid and you need to weight the overload against normal rotations in every situation.

If overloads aren’t meant to be used on-rotation, then that means they are meant to be used as-needed. Except, oh, wait, you can’t use them when you need them because of the 5s pre-charge. If you want something that is used sometimes when needed, get rid of the pre-charge and deal with the risk of interruption + longer CD.

Tempest offers a gameplay with a certain skillcap and people here are asking to remove that skillcap by deleting cast/channel time, basically transforming tempest in D/D 2.0 where there is little to no consequence for making a mistakes ( like overloading at the wrong moment)

No it doesn’t, it just offers abilities that do the same thing, in the same role, as regular ele, with higher risk. I am not saying that overloads shouldn’t have risk, but it needs to be balanced. As it is, even just conceptually, overloads serve no real purpose EXCEPT forcing yourself to be incredibly predictable and ineffectual by standing around using bad auto-attacks and making it apparent to anyone with a brain what is coming 5s from now. You can’t use overloads reactively, so that doesn’t raise the skill-cap. In fact, I would argue that, because of the 5s charge up time AND 20s CD, it forces you to simply develop an even slower, more predictable rotation which actually LOWERS the skill-cap. Once you overload once, you are forced to keep overloading other attunements or else be reduce to irrelevance due to, once again, bad auto-attacks. The ONLY way around this is fresh air, and that is why only air overload was used with such a spec (which should be an indicator that the risk structure is just imbalanced).

I’m sorry that I need to be so blunt with people but…It’s about time we get rid of that way of playing ele, people charging headfirst and cantrips in hands inside any battle, doesn’t matter just charge in spamming RoF, burning speed whatever…if losing too much health, swap to water and try again…

The only overload that needs a look at it’s water, rest is more than fine….d/d has left people with really bad habits…

No, D/D and all rotational gameplay isn’t a “bad habit” – it only developed because, given the mechanics of the class, it was the ONLY effective way to play. Attunement camping never worked (because of bad auto-attacks and most defenses being tied to frequently swapping), yet is required to overload. Tempest wasn’t given ANY tools with a warhorn off-hand to make sitting in one attunement effective. They were right when they started developing a mainhand weapon that synergized with that concept (no, I was not a sword fanboy, it could have been any mainhand with short CD’s and great autos), but when they changed it to an off-hand they should have changed the cost-structure for overload.

You could raise the skill-cap and make a balanced skill that has risk reward if you removed either the pre-charge (if it is a reactive skill) or the long CD (if it is meant to just allow a slower rotation rate), and probably reduce the channel to something more reasonable. As it is, the overloading doesn’t raise the skill-cap at all, because, like shatterstone and other terrible skills, they are basically NEVER worth casting. If you want something that has a high skill-cap, it needs to have balanced risk/reward for a variety of situations.

But just ignore what everyone who has experience with high-level pvp says (like blackjack, for instance) and let them deliver a dud. I guess you want them to provide something useless so that they can spend 2 more years trying fruitlessly to make it effective.

Supreme.3164:

Tempest offers a gameplay with a certain skillcap and people here are asking to remove that skillcap by deleting cast/channel time, basically transforming tempest in D/D 2.0 where there is little to no consequence for making a mistakes ( like overloading at the wrong moment)

I’m sorry that I need to be so blunt with people but…It’s about time we get rid of that way of playing ele, people charging headfirst and cantrips in hands inside any battle, doesn’t matter just charge in spamming RoF, burning speed whatever…if losing too much health, swap to water and try again…

The only overload that needs a look at it’s water, rest is more than fine….d/d has left people with really bad habits…

Since anet refuses to split balance into different game modes you ought to consider those game modes as well. Tempest is equally bad in pve as in pvp and your arguments about d/d lowering skill cap is non existent there because it’t not usable in pve.

Either you play the strongest ele build that relies on stationary foes or you try something that was nerfed which is fresh air d/f. Both of those builds can only work because only two of our auto-attacks are somewhat non-terrible. I can’t imagine spending 5 seconds just to use an overload that’s barely better than your normal rotation and might as well punish you if you fail to complete the channel.

So no, overloads are still too weak considering their opportunity costs.

The question is then is a classic staff ele good in raids? So play tempest PvP/WvW and normal zerk ele in raids? If staff ele is kicked out by say reaper or engi then ele gets the short stick there.

Staff ele can be good in raids as a damage dealer only when bosses are relatively immobile and have larger hit boxes. That’s possible for later bosses but for the first one staff ele loses tons of damage potential because of boss’ mobility. And ele doesn’t have any decent build except full damage build so if that one is non-preferred due to the changes in mobs behaviour than staff ele will fall out of meta. In both teams that defeated the first boss of the raid, there were 0 eles/tempests.

In the general sense, not every elite specialization has to be masters of or even capable of removing conditions. Having said that, because tempest is specifically supposed to be for group support, it doesn’t really make sense to me that the shouts/trait line have no way of removing conditions. Every support oriented tempest will be forced into water line, which is bad.

This leads back to the original problem where the base class is probably better at overall group support than the Tempest is, and sacrifices less damage in the process.

This is in regards to SPVP: I’m all for the elite spec changing up the playstyle of the elementalist but I just can’t get over being locked out of an attunement for so long. I really don’t want Tempest to be balanced around this design. When entering an attunement I don’t want to have to stall in it for an overload that may easily backfire on me depending on what my opponent does and I certainly don’t want to wait longer than my original attunement cooldown to re-enter an attunement.

Grimreaper.5370:

This is in regards to SPVP: I’m all for the elite spec changing up the playstyle of the elementalist but I just can’t get over being locked out of an attunement for so long. I really don’t want Tempest to be balanced around this design. When entering an attunement I don’t want to have to stall in it for an overload that may easily backfire on me depending on what my opponent does and I certainly don’t want to wait longer than my original attunement cooldown to re-enter an attunement.

It all boils down to risk/reward. Maybe if an overload is successfully completed, the ‘lockout’ period should be cut by 33% or 50?

Karl McLain.5604:

Bam!
Thanks everyone in advance for your constructive feedback. Please keep in mind that we’re getting close to day zero and that the smaller the change, the more likely we’ll be able to discuss and action that feedback. This isn’t the end, however. We’ll continue to make changes, when necessary, after HoT releases, as well.

Thanks!
-Karl

Karl;

I understand that it’s very busy over there at Anet right now, but I was wondering if we could have a moment of your time to get feedback on your work on Tempest at the moment? This would allow us to focus our efforts on constructive, specific responses to the changes you are making/would be willing to make.

Again, we know that your time is incredibly limited, and appreciate whatever you would be willing to spare us. Thank you.

Godservant.8736:

Karl McLain.5604:

Bam!
Thanks everyone in advance for your constructive feedback. Please keep in mind that we’re getting close to day zero and that the smaller the change, the more likely we’ll be able to discuss and action that feedback. This isn’t the end, however. We’ll continue to make changes, when necessary, after HoT releases, as well.

Thanks!
-Karl

Karl;

I understand that it’s very busy over there at Anet right now, but I was wondering if we could have a moment of your time to get feedback on your work on Tempest at the moment? This would allow us to focus our efforts on constructive, specific responses to the changes you are making/would be willing to make.

Again, we know that your time is incredibly limited, and appreciate whatever you would be willing to spare us. Thank you.

Considering he posted Daredevil notes for post beta changes a few days ago, I expect that sometime between now and Sunday we’ll get a detailed list of changes that are considered as such, works in progress that may change before launch, rather than final eternal notes.

As it stands, I think Tempest is mostly good for what it does and what it tries to be, it just needs minor traits, the whole middle line of master tier traits, shout CDR in TA, lightning orb, water overload, and a smidgen of condition removal on a shout (like 2-3 condis on self on a 25-30 CD shout) to be looked at and improved.

Speedy Conduit should be merged with Lucid Singularity.

Stability on overload should be the Minor Master. Harmonious Conduit will need some other buff in order to compete with Tempestuous Aria, which should have the Shout CD reduction. It’s already been noted that Earthen Proxy doesn’t really do enough. I’d LOVE to see the Protection on Aura moved to this trait as well.

All of the Major Adepts are pretty weak IMO. Unstable Conduit would be better at the beginning of the overload.

Just report Supreme and move on.

I really hope the Tempest creates a PvE-viable condition build.

Supreme.3164:

This is why the ele community is spoiled, d/d ele spoiled us too much..

Tell me more about how much I’ve been spoiled by d/d when I always and only played staff.

Supreme.3164:

Jhoul.6923:

Supreme.3164:

4)
Condi removal?
You can trait for shout removal on top of cantrips, regen and heal on shout, is that not enough?…ofc not..people don’t want to give up on strength/hoelbrak whatever am I right? So you need condi removal on shout untraited…

What is this Sorcery? There was a trait that made shouts condi cleanse and I did not see it O__O!

…I did not mention rune sets for nothing,trait by using trooper runes that what it’s good for, synergy with shouts but the problem is people still want to do damage so they ask inbuilt condi clear on tempest..but it doesn’t work like that.

This is why the ele community is spoiled, d/d ele spoiled us too much..people believe that 2-3 eles for team is normal while no ranger and few wars are used and when a ranger spec is deemed more useful than an ele in pve..all hell break lose, 3 years of dominance and all of sudden the dream is over, similar concept in PvP.

To simply put it it cannot be allowed to buff tempest to a level where stacking it becomes beneficial like it happens already with d/d; you can’t put all eggs in a single basket, that creates imbalances

Can you imagine a game where overload are instantly available, reduced time lock on attunement, 2s window to interrupt them and shouts get a 20-33% CD reduction trait?

I tell you what happens…

- 2-3 tempest spamming air overload on a point
-very difficult to interrupt them as they have at least 1-2 stacks of stab and even if you interrupt them..they’ll have overload up again in few secs
-feel the burn spam for massive gain ( aoe fire aura, might, weakness, burning and 1k+ dmg)

If you buff tempest in the wrong way..you’ll just replace the current d/d with tempest and the meta won’t change..

Always wanted ele to be optimal and never oppressive like it’s now, wanted EA as GM and something else as ele main mechanic and force staff on people who still wanted a support role on ele, force them to choose between d/d duellist or staff support.

If something too strong…people will abuse it….it’s that simple

I agree. Overload should not have a passive stability attached to it, except for earth. As for Tempest power, it’s because we need actual minor traits in the line.

Alekt.5803:

Supreme.3164:

Jhoul.6923:

Supreme.3164:

4)
Condi removal?
You can trait for shout removal on top of cantrips, regen and heal on shout, is that not enough?…ofc not..people don’t want to give up on strength/hoelbrak whatever am I right? So you need condi removal on shout untraited…

What is this Sorcery? There was a trait that made shouts condi cleanse and I did not see it O__O!

…I did not mention rune sets for nothing,trait by using trooper runes that what it’s good for, synergy with shouts but the problem is people still want to do damage so they ask inbuilt condi clear on tempest..but it doesn’t work like that.

This is why the ele community is spoiled, d/d ele spoiled us too much..people believe that 2-3 eles for team is normal while no ranger and few wars are used and when a ranger spec is deemed more useful than an ele in pve..all hell break lose, 3 years of dominance and all of sudden the dream is over, similar concept in PvP.

To simply put it it cannot be allowed to buff tempest to a level where stacking it becomes beneficial like it happens already with d/d; you can’t put all eggs in a single basket, that creates imbalances

Can you imagine a game where overload are instantly available, reduced time lock on attunement, 2s window to interrupt them and shouts get a 20-33% CD reduction trait?

I tell you what happens…

- 2-3 tempest spamming air overload on a point
-very difficult to interrupt them as they have at least 1-2 stacks of stab and even if you interrupt them..they’ll have overload up again in few secs
-feel the burn spam for massive gain ( aoe fire aura, might, weakness, burning and 1k+ dmg)

If you buff tempest in the wrong way..you’ll just replace the current d/d with tempest and the meta won’t change..

Always wanted ele to be optimal and never oppressive like it’s now, wanted EA as GM and something else as ele main mechanic and force staff on people who still wanted a support role on ele, force them to choose between d/d duellist or staff support.

If something too strong…people will abuse it….it’s that simple

I agree. Overload should not have a passive stability attached to it, except for earth. As for Tempest power, it’s because we need actual minor traits in the line.

So we got to spend one major slot for 1 stack of stability? I can’t take it seriously.