Guild Wars 2

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

they said so.

Also what balance?

No offense but until tody they shown us that balance is really an issue for them…..they destroyed weaponsets and Whole classes speaking of “balance”….

And they refuse to address clear balance issues that anyone can see…..won t mention wich.

Then they come out with “aoe are an issue…..in dungeons and in pvp”.

Its clear across the Whole board how any “balancing patch” is just a russian roulette to see wich class will be unviable next…..

If someone tells me that my D/D ele is OP in pve trust me that i have all reasons to fear any patch….because it requires triple the effort (u miss a skill once and you are downed while having to use 10+ combinations with proper timing also…) for half the reward compared to any other class (just the lack of weapon swap is enough).

I think balance is the first reason of negativity of this forum (but also in game)

Kodiak.3281:

TheGuy.3568:

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.

It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).

So yea, it all kinda pertains.

And the next thing they said after that was that they will split skills if necessary so your point was?

BTW “unlikely” lol. Sorry for the rude tone but like I said be patient they do split skills so here are some skills that have been split in the past (notice our heal)
Skills

Healing Ripple: This skill’s scaling with healing power has been reduced by 50% in PvP only

Grenade: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 10% in PvP only.
Shrapnel Grenade: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 15% in PvP only.
Freeze Grenade: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 10% in PvP only.
Grenade Barrage: This skill’s damage has been decreased by 10% in PvP only.

Shield of Judgment: This skill’s protection duration has been set to 3 seconds from 5 seconds in PvP only.

Selfless Daring: This trait had an efficiency with healing power that was reserved for healing skills only and has now been reduced to its intended level. Heal scaling has been reduced by 50% in PvP only.

Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

Confusion
PvE and WvW: 10 + (1.5 * Level) + (0.15 * Condition Damage) per stack
sPvP: 65 + (0.075 * Condition Damage) per stack

“Save Yourselves!”
PvE and WvW 10 second duration
sPvP 5 second duration

Tactical Strike
Daze: 2 seconds PvE and WvW 1.5 seconds in sPvP

I am not going further I have proved my point. Relax and adapt to what happens. The sky is not falling chicken littles but it may rain a bit.

When they nerf thieves and burst in general(but many thieves) i will gladly take a nerf. When you have to take 20K + of insta damage from a BS combo what else can people expect but people running full bunkers.

If my PVE healer/support elementalist gets broken due to sPvP bullkitten I will be extremely frustrated. A-net, if you nerf the elementalist healers, nerf the base values and increase the scaling with healing power.

Trakarg.2095:

If my PVE healer/support elementalist gets broken due to sPvP bullkitten I will be extremely frustrated. A-net, if you nerf the elementalist healers, nerf the base values and increase the scaling with healing power.

Guess you will still be able to support your team with regen and small team heals, but the large aoe healing will be toned down, you can still play power ele with 20 fire , no I’m not joking, you can dish some serious dmg with the right power spec and still be moderately survivable

Arheundel.6451:

Trakarg.2095:

If my PVE healer/support elementalist gets broken due to sPvP bullkitten I will be extremely frustrated. A-net, if you nerf the elementalist healers, nerf the base values and increase the scaling with healing power.

Guess you will still be able to support your team with regen and small team heals, but the large aoe healing will be toned down, you can still play power ele with 20 fire , no I’m not joking, you can dish some serious dmg with the right power spec and still be moderately survivable

Right. I should have to completely re-gear my elementalist and respec him because A-net’s balance decisions are bullkitten.

Trakarg.2095:

If my PVE healer/support elementalist gets broken due to sPvP bullkitten I will be extremely frustrated. A-net, if you nerf the elementalist healers, nerf the base values and increase the scaling with healing power.

The reverse is more likely. Ele heals already have very high scaling.

Trakarg.2095:

Arheundel.6451:

Trakarg.2095:

If my PVE healer/support elementalist gets broken due to sPvP bullkitten I will be extremely frustrated. A-net, if you nerf the elementalist healers, nerf the base values and increase the scaling with healing power.

Guess you will still be able to support your team with regen and small team heals, but the large aoe healing will be toned down, you can still play power ele with 20 fire , no I’m not joking, you can dish some serious dmg with the right power spec and still be moderately survivable

Right. I should have to completely re-gear my elementalist and respec him because A-net’s balance decisions are bullkitten.

Welcome to ALL MMOs. If they nerf or change a class, your really have 3 choices adapt or quit or play another class.

Nobody like for their class to be nerfed but it is one of those things you either deal with it or don’t.

Caffynated.5713:

Trakarg.2095:

If my PVE healer/support elementalist gets broken due to sPvP bullkitten I will be extremely frustrated. A-net, if you nerf the elementalist healers, nerf the base values and increase the scaling with healing power.

The reverse is more likely. Ele heals already have very high scaling.

God forbid there is one class in the game that can make at least some use out of healing power.

Kodiak.3281:

TheGuy.3568:

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.

It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).

So yea, it all kinda pertains.

I hope they are very likely to split the effects even further. They have already made changes to the Ele that affect only one aspect of the game. Balancing all classes, skills, traits, and gear for both Pve and PvP is an impossible task. I am surprised they have done as well as they have for as long as they have.

Hey eles, fellow ex-ele speaking here. I for one am settling quite well with my new warrior :] at least i know he’ll never get hit by such nerfs. Join the crowd! Make some wars/guards/mesmers

With all the complaints about thieves, why would eles get nerfed first? Don’t understand Anet sometimes.

Devs main thieves. It’s the only explanation that makes any sense.

Surely you fine chaps aren`t trying to elude as to Thiefs needing a nerf when it is clearly Elementalists….

http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/1935123

P.S. Sarcasm mode was on full there

I recall all those times I`ve played since beta & during live that my Ele` used to one shot all other profess…no wait, that never happened.

P.P.S.

Caffynated.5713:

Devs main thieves. It’s the only explanation that makes any sense.

I suppose the CEO and management of NCSoft, the company which owns ANet, also main thieves then? Do you have any idea what would happen to a middle-tier developer who “fixed” a game to suit their playstyle?
Ask the fired devs of EvE Online, and all they did was give free stuff to their guild.

it doesn t work that way…
I don t think ncsoft is involved in game developing/balancing and if i remember correctly they even stated so.

Yet people are quite angry that they proceed to nerf any fotm build due to complains, but leave untouched the most complained mechanics in the game that cause more issue of anything else in the game i.e. stealth.

They says its a culling issue, while being showed in many threads culling is just slightly aggravating a broken mechanic that should be rethinked (cooldown instead of initiative for example because its abused too easily as it is now).

The other complainers instead are just unaware that after D/D ele their profession will be next..

I see ppl complaining about rangers engineers and necro already…..

Don’t worry. They announced that the ranger was having too much worthless skills that would get looked at months ago. Judging from this, any projected nerf to eles won’t happen sooner then maybe the 3rd expansion.

wintermute.4096:

Don’t worry. They announced that the ranger was having too much worthless skills that would get looked at months ago. Judging from this, any projected nerf to eles won’t happen sooner then maybe the 3rd expansion.

this is actually why people is angry..

If they remotely suspects womething is strong even if they are not sure they knee kerk it in few days….

If something is unviable (maybe doue to their knee jerk nerfs) they look into it in months……..

Their politic is nerf asap, rebalance later maybe one day when and if they will have time….

See staff, see engineer.

I’m still wondering why can’t Ele simply be a good ranged caster.
Ele isn’t meant to melee lets face it, with low health and armor to survive in melee he needs OP tools such as the current mega-healing bull.
Just give this class high ranged AoE damage as it’s supposed to be, most Eles outside sPvP play that way anyways.
If sPvP needs a melee build then Anet split those freakin’ skills.

I’m sorry for you guys but until Anet decides to do a proper skill splitting of all skills in the game I doubt we’ll ever see balance.
To get a 100% balance they would even need to make a split for WvW which works differently from sPvP and PvE and therefore needs different skills too.

But hey, we’re getting Keg Brawl! <facepalm>

Red Falcon.8257:

I’m still wondering why can’t Ele simply be a good ranged caster.
Ele isn’t meant to melee lets face it, with low health and armor to survive in melee he needs OP tools such as the current mega-healing bull.
Just give this class high ranged AoE damage as it’s supposed to be, most Eles outside sPvP play that way anyways.
If sPvP needs a melee build then Anet split those freakin’ skills.

I’m sorry for you guys but until Anet decides to do a proper skill splitting of all skills in the game I doubt we’ll ever see balance.
To get a 100% balance they would even need to make a split for WvW which works differently from sPvP and PvE and therefore needs different skills too.

But hey, we’re getting Keg Brawl! <facepalm>

So my guardian should also be ranged? My health pool on my ele is higher then on my guardian and the difference in armor is “just” 400.

Red Falcon.8257:

I’m still wondering why can’t Ele simply be a good ranged caster.

Ele was once….but people in www said ranged aoe was OP and they nerfed staff offensive capabilities to the ground…..

So people though ele could at least be a good healer/tank but people complained and staff healing was nerfed again……

Imho staff is a weponset that should be looked into from anet to see how bad is nerfing without compensation.

Its the perfect example.
Mostly because slow aoe weren t a problem in the beginning….and didn t need the most severe nerf in game history.

@saintlucifer something is wrong with your post.
Ele and guardian base HP are the same, while guard being 2 tier higher in armor

@LordByron
My point is that there is no trinity in this game so every class can be ranged or melee. And because a class has a low hp base doens’t mean they aren’t great melee fighters.
The reason why both ele and guard have low hp base is because they have alot of healing.

Echo.3741:

Great… This was the push I needed to stop playing GW2 and maybe re-join in 6-7 months. Makes me think what kind of testers they actually have over at ANet. :/

Threatening to quit a game that has no subscription fee is kinda pointless. They already got your money, they really don’t care. The best thing that can happen is people do quit and then the ones that are left on low pop servers have to pay to transfer.

Arheundel.6451:

Basically this :

1) Bunkers will be nerfed
2) Eles do have weak weapons/builds and they will look at them
3) Ele healing skills will be nerfed

What healing skills?

Either 6, Signet of Restoration, the Water Adept, Soothing Mist, or the Water Master, Healing Ripple. All three of these are pretty strong heals.

Ljiona.9142:

Echo.3741:

Great… This was the push I needed to stop playing GW2 and maybe re-join in 6-7 months. Makes me think what kind of testers they actually have over at ANet. :/

Threatening to quit a game that has no subscription fee is kinda pointless. They already got your money, they really don’t care. The best thing that can happen is people do quit and then the ones that are left on low pop servers have to pay to transfer.

A user that has quit will never touch the cash shop. ANET never wants a player to stop playing for this reason, so yes it does matter.

Honestly, I’ve given up myself, and this is also the final straw. My continuing to play this game will hinge significantly on the severity of this nerf. I don’t even PvP, I just love playing PvE with the D/D build. I’ll try to adapt but I’ve fallen in love with the play style, and losing it will draw me away from the game, most likely.

bighaben.5890:

Ljiona.9142:

Echo.3741:

Great… This was the push I needed to stop playing GW2 and maybe re-join in 6-7 months. Makes me think what kind of testers they actually have over at ANet. :/

Threatening to quit a game that has no subscription fee is kinda pointless. They already got your money, they really don’t care. The best thing that can happen is people do quit and then the ones that are left on low pop servers have to pay to transfer.

A user that has quit will never touch the cash shop. ANET never wants a player to stop playing for this reason, so yes it does matter.

Honestly, I’ve given up myself, and this is also the final straw. My continuing to play this game will hinge significantly on the severity of this nerf. I don’t even PvP, I just love playing PvE with the D/D build. I’ll try to adapt but I’ve fallen in love with the play style, and losing it will draw me away from the game, most likely.

Oh stop the drama! We all know that ele’s are above average (understatement) whether someone is in denial or not. Just take the nerf like we deserve and continue with playing.

I think the whole problem comes from the fact that with the current systems bunkerbuilds of any class generally outperform glass cannons in a 1vs1 fight.

Elementalists espescially daggerdagger builds add a lot of crowd controll and extreme movabillity tothat.

Sadly to say isthat many classes are on par withthe ele, thief, mesmer, guardian and necro have builds that are nearly unkillable in 1vs 1. I have noticed some ranger builds doing eztremely well. Personally i think warrior has some issues with fighting controll/conditionbuilds, tough a well placed disable combined with 100 blades still works miracles. Last and least in my opinion is the engineer, they could use some buffs.

Personally i can beat any ele on my thief,mesmer and necro. But when my ele brings friends they are nearly unstoppable, i like my ele much more in a team situation

lordbachus.6091:

I think the whole problem comes from the fact that with the current systems bunkerbuilds of any class generally outperform glass cannons in a 1vs1 fight.

Elementalists espescially daggerdagger builds add a lot of crowd controll and extreme movabillity tothat.

Sadly to say isthat many classes are on par withthe ele, thief, mesmer, guardian and necro have builds that are nearly unkillable in 1vs 1. I have noticed some ranger builds doing eztremely well. Personally i think warrior has some issues with fighting controll/conditionbuilds, tough a well placed disable combined with 100 blades still works miracles. Last and least in my opinion is the engineer, they could use some buffs.

Personally i can beat any ele on my thief,mesmer and necro. But when my ele brings friends they are nearly unstoppable, i like my ele much more in a team situation

excuse me sir that is the point….
Bunker are the couter to burst…..

People seems cannot understand that.

I’ll go even deeper: condition builds are the counter to bunkers…

Wonder wich classes are considered D/D killers?
Necro
Mesmer condition
Thief condition
Eng condition

And i heard also some ranger trap builds that i don t know at all.

Who usually complains about D/D ele:
Mesmer shatter (glass cannon burst build)
Thief GC
War GC
(those should sum up 90% of complaints at least).

LordByron.8369:

excuse me sir that is the point….
Bunker are the couter to burst…..

People seems cannot understand that.

I’ll go even deeper: condition builds are the counter to bunkers…

Wonder wich classes are considered D/D killers?
Necro
Mesmer condition
Thief condition
Eng condition

And i heard also some ranger trap builds that i don t know at all.

Who usually complains about D/D ele:
Mesmer shatter (glass cannon burst build)
Thief GC
War GC
(those should sum up 90% of complaints at least).

As someone who has both a power and condition based mesmer and thief I can tell you I usually have a much easier time killing a d/d ele with the burst builds, just hurt them until they go into and then leave water, then burst and try to remove protect, and keep cripple to slow ride the lightening if they go to air. It is hard and doesn’t always work if they are fast enough with mist but it can surprise them.

My condition builds can fight a good ele to a draw, but the damage is never high enough that the ele can’t bring themselves back up, because you usually only have basically a 9 second window to bring a d/d ele down (their entire health pool +heal +mist form) while dodging their CC and damage, watching your own health and trying to keep them from escaping with ride the lightening.

Against good players the condition mesmer is the hardest for this since confusion is so easy to negate if you pay attention. Against a bad player who just spams without paying attention to what I am doing or their condition bar they are the easiest to kill.

If the ele had no regen, or a personal heal and they stood in caltrops (sign of a bad player) I could stack enough bleeds on the rogue to get their entire health pool in 9 seconds, but the heal and regen means most live through the bleeds until water is back up, and good players don’t stand in caltrops so I don’t get to stack as many bleeds. However unlike the mesmer, the thief’s stealth and mobility mean that I almost never worry about them killing me either. So 1v1 I find it extremely hard to kill a good d/d ele with a condition build.

Necros do counter eles, but that is partially because of corrupt boon. Necros also apply more cripples and especially chills and apply a variety of conditions which makes them harder to cleanse the ones that are hurting.

Edit: necros also stack bleeds higher and faster than the thief so a cleans doesn’t hurt as much. Both necros and thieves stack conditions much faster than the mesmer. A power necro with a dagger, two wells and corrupt boon can also bring down an ele very fast if they just left water.

with your condition you can just put so many that ele can t do anything…
Also Moa…
And daze most of all, daze negates everything…….i personally saw how easy was for a condition msmer to kill D/D eles.

You steal boons and switch your conditions.

LordByron.8369:

with your condition you can just put so many that ele can t do anything…
Also Moa…
And daze most of all, daze negates everything…….i personally saw how easy was for a condition msmer to kill D/D eles.

You steal boons and switch your conditions.

No one should ever have a problem with moa, just turn around push 5 and you are safe until it wears off. Very few mesmers that know how to play the class run with this.

And a mesmer can put on a lot of confusion to stop and elementalist but if they don’t attack confusion does 0 damage. If you wait 5 seconds or go to water all the conditions are gone and the mesmer has their burst on cool down. You can also dodge their shatters which has an extremely obvious animation. Then you attack, if you don’t burst them down before they get the cool downs up, which is where the mesmers CC helps, it will end in a draw, which is what I said happens a lot of times if there are two good players. Mesmers can not maintain large stacks of confusion, it isn’t possible and if you know how to dodge a shatter it is hard to ever get large stacks of confusion, and the little stacks a mesmer can stack can be removed easily by the d/d ele.

And you mentioned arcane theivery, that can steal a random 3 buffs and give you 3 conditions every 40 seconds. But other than might, those buffs wont help you kill any faster because the ele not having protect wont matter if you are a condition build and with might the ele can still negate the damage of confusion and shatters if you dodge. It can help a power spec, if you are lucky and steal protect but I mentioned that in my post.

Honestly a good ele should never die to a condition mesmer 1v1

purpleskies.3274:

LordByron.8369:

with your condition you can just put so many that ele can t do anything…
Also Moa…
And daze most of all, daze negates everything…….i personally saw how easy was for a condition msmer to kill D/D eles.

You steal boons and switch your conditions.

No one should ever have a problem with moa, just turn around push 5 and you are safe until it wears off. Very few mesmers that know how to play the class run with this.

And a mesmer can put on a lot of confusion to stop and elementalist but if they don’t attack confusion does 0 damage. If you wait 5 seconds or go to water all the conditions are gone and the mesmer has their burst on cool down. You can also dodge their shatters which has an extremely obvious animation. Then you attack, if you don’t burst them down before they get the cool downs up, which is where the mesmers CC helps, it will end in a draw, which is what I said happens a lot of times if there are two good players. Mesmers can not maintain large stacks of confusion, it isn’t possible and if you know how to dodge a shatter it is hard to ever get large stacks of confusion, and the little stacks a mesmer can stack can be removed easily by the d/d ele.

And you mentioned arcane theivery, that can steal a random 3 buffs and give you 3 conditions every 40 seconds. But other than might, those buffs wont help you kill any faster because the ele not having protect wont matter if you are a condition build and with might the ele can still negate the damage of confusion and shatters if you dodge. It can help a power spec, if you are lucky and steal protect but I mentioned that in my post.

Honestly a good ele should never die to a condition mesmer 1v1

I am a bit perplexed with the situation you have provided that it seems the mesmer in that fight is so bad and lame he deserves to lose in the fight rather than the ele winning indefinitely because of OPness and the mesmer can’t do anything about it.

If an ele with a stack of confusion does not attack, isn’t that in favor of the mesmer too since the ele won’t be dealing damage to the mesmer anyway? :/

If the ele decided to move into water to cleanse conditions, don’t you have any daze to at your disposal to prevent the ele from cleansing most if not all of the conditions you threw at him?

And Arcane Thievery is such a nice tool it can turn the tide of the battle when used in the right moment. The skill having 40 seconds of CD means that it is not meant to be spammed anyway knowing how powerful it can be when used right. And you didn’t mention Null Field. You can sit in the field knowing for sure the ele will lose his boons once he tried to come close and damage you since d/d eles are melee. Or Shattered Concentration trait to remove condition with shatter. Arcane Thievery isnt just your option. And don’t start arguing me about “So I have to equip specific utilities or traits just to counter one build?” Duh? Eles have evolved into the all cantrip utilities they are now because without cantrips, and not building for survivability you die in those one trick pony Bulls Charge Hundred Blades or Backstab builds. Glass Cannon eles get one shot it’s not even funny. They have no built-in survivability mechanics like stealth and/or clones.

Yeah, certain builds are required to counter other builds, and that’s good for the meta, IMO. It allows diversity in a way, rather than having homogeneous specs across all professions. The only sad thing unfortunately is other options for eles right now are so situational and limited or that this is the only build for eles right now to play competitively in the meta. They have no real options. I just wish other traits, weapons sets, and utilities of the ele gets buffed when the nerf on d/d arrives to allow for more builds to emerge.

I can go on, but I just want to point out that saying mesmer conditions builds are terrible against eles just because of the scenarios you mentioned is a weak argument. But I am not saying certain ele builds don’t need some nerfing. A certain spec of ele is far too good and becomes very OP in the hands of a good player. Any viable spec for any class can be OP in the hands of the right player, anyway.

LordByron.8369:

wintermute.4096:

Don’t worry. They announced that the ranger was having too much worthless skills that would get looked at months ago. Judging from this, any projected nerf to eles won’t happen sooner then maybe the 3rd expansion.

this is actually why people is angry..

If they remotely suspects womething is strong even if they are not sure they knee kerk it in few days….

If something is unviable (maybe doue to their knee jerk nerfs) they look into it in months……..

Their politic is nerf asap, rebalance later maybe one day when and if they will have time….

See staff, see engineer.

I worked in a software house which for years had the same “if we have the time” philosophy.

they will never ‘get the time’

I hope the devs are still reading this thread.

Please don’t screw up anything by listening to all the QQers. The problem that I encounter all the time is ignorant people complaining. I feel you guys made a serious mistake with the mesmer portal (I’ve advocated increasing the cap to 25 and prioritizing your squad. That just makes sense. Now, they are hardly ever used.) There was the fiasco over WvW rankings reset. Please, think things through carefully.

I don’t think any change you do will affect PvE much. I’m a big WvWer and never PvP, so maybe most of this is coming from that community. They are vastly different, and please don’t forget how serious your changes affect us WvWers. The problem is that there is a counter to everything, but others don’t understand that. I can kill a DD ele very fast with my confusion mesmer. Necros kill my DD ele very fast by turning my 6 or 7 or 8 boons to conditions. When fighting a large zerg, I don’t care how many cleanses I have, I can’t cleanse fast enough, and if I do clense, I’m not damaging. But it seems that people want their one build to do everything. That doesn’t exist, and it shouldn’t. It keeps the game interesting.

DD eles have great survivability, but that comes at the cost of DPS, so who really cares that you can’t kill them fast? Well, the people who want their build to kill everything. Again, that doesn’t exist and it shouldn’t.

My other fear is that I run a variation of the DD ele that is great for me and my team, but if you nerf the DD bunker ele, how is my variation going to get screwed up? Can I still switch to the staff and provide better healing support for my team? Is it going to be viable anymore? Probably not based on your past nerfs, but I have hope.

If you nerf this badly, then the community will just start QQing about something else, like “wahh, I can’t kill a guardian! He needs to get nerfed!” Then, necros condition damage is too high. When will it end?

Gallrvaghn.4921:

I am a bit perplexed with the situation you have provided that it seems the mesmer in that fight is so bad and lame he deserves to lose in the fight rather than the ele winning indefinitely because of OPness and the mesmer can’t do anything about it.

I never said the ele would win, I said several times a good ele vs good condition mesmer will fight to a draw (a draw means neither one wins). And I just understand how eles work and how condition mesmers work and do fight clubs quite often which is what I am basing these opinions on.

And if you find something “lame” about what I said ask or explain what I am missing about the mesmers attacks, condition builds and tactics to beat a good ele with a condition mesmer. You listed a few abilities the mesmer has but how do you use those in a fight, how do they work with condition builds ect because I know the class well and don’t see how a condition build can beat a good ele.

Also Condition mesmers also rarely have access to a cripple so it is almost impossible to stop ride the lightening.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

If the ele decided to move into water to cleanse conditions, don’t you have any daze to at your disposal to prevent the ele from cleansing most if not all of the conditions you threw at him?

You can shatter for a daze, which means clones run at you slowly. A condition mesmer rarely uses pistol which has a stun. But even if you daze/stun it is 1 second long and confusion works off an ele pushing buttons, if you are dazed you are not pushing buttons and therefor not getting hurt. So the daze can actually lower the mesmers damage which is why condition builds don’t use it. Furthermore once the daze wears off an ele can cleanse and the 1 second didn’t mean much. Condition mesmers rarely have more than 2 conditions on an opponent (maybe 2-3 bleeds and confusion) and one cleanse clears all confusion.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

And Arcane Thievery is such a nice tool it can turn the tide of the battle when used in the right moment. The skill having 40 seconds of CD means that it is not meant to be spammed anyway knowing how powerful it can be when used right. And you didn’t mention Null Field…

I am not sure what you are talking about here. Most d/d eles don’t trait or build for heavy condition damage so I don’t see why the mesmers cleanse abilities matter much or why you are saying a class should respec and build around it? Could you explain. The condtions eles do are also easy to avoid large stacks.

And the comment about arcane thievery was odd to me since I haven’t seen any build or heard of many builds that use it. I agree it has a chance to turn the tide of some battles but since it is random 3 buffs/conditions it can also be useless. And I don’t get how it is so powerful against in an ele vs condition mesmer fight, removing buffs doesn’t help condition builds much.

A lot of condition mesmers run with null field and as you said it can strip boons if an ele is bad and stands in it, but a condition build isn’t helped by stripping boons much. Conditions aren’t reduced by protect so the only thing it helps is to lower the eles damage. And most good eles are smart and realize it is better to wait the or do something like begin channeling churning earth and teleport in when the field expires or is about to expire to avoid losing all their buff.

As for clones helping survivability, they are a minor distraction that can delay you for a second or two if paired with stealth once you learn how find the real mesmer. They only protect against bad players.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

I can go on, but I just want to point out that saying mesmer conditions builds are terrible against eles just because of the scenarios you mentioned is a weak argument. But I am not saying certain ele builds don’t need some nerfing. A certain spec of ele is far too good and becomes very OP in the hands of a good player. Any viable spec for any class can be OP in the hands of the right player, anyway.

Okay if I am wrong please tell me what rotation or skill combo a condition mesmer uses to beat an ele? The situations I gave were based on the ways a condition mesmer can stack conditions and the type of conditions used. You said you can go on and I would love to know how to kill good ones on with a condition mesmer, because currently from what I know and have seen the bad ones are easy to down but good ones are basically immortal vs a condition mesmer/thief.

And for the record this post started because someone said condition builds counter d/d eles. I said I thought burst had a better chance because eles cure conditions easily, not me saying eles were OP.

some suggestions:
Ele suffers KD due to lack of stability

Focus 4/4 is great

Sword 3/3 => 2 does lot of damage.

If you say ele don t take damage for 5 seconds unless he hits buttons means you can kill the ele….

5 seconds are more than enough if he cannot heal.
As said Pistol 5 is great also if you don t like focus (that is the best weapon imho for pvp)

GS is useful against an ele running away…mostly because the facrt that RTL was bugged for a week fleeing for 1500 range, doen t mean it is actually 1500 range….i think they alreaduy fix it few days ago ( i could be wrong).

fishergrip.4082:

Good. D/D eles are very overpowered right now. They are practically invincible. They have the best bunker and mobility in the game, makes no sense.

Do you know what else is practically invincible? A fortified wall. Your “point” makes no sense.

LordByron.8369:

some suggestions:
Ele suffers KD due to lack of stability

Focus 4/4 is great

Sword 3/3 => 2 does lot of damage.

If you say ele don t take damage for 5 seconds unless he hits buttons means you can kill the ele….

5 seconds are more than enough if he cannot heal.
As said Pistol 5 is great also if you don t like focus (that is the best weapon imho for pvp)

GS is useful against an ele running away…mostly because the facrt that RTL was bugged for a week fleeing for 1500 range, doen t mean it is actually 1500 range….i think they alreaduy fix it few days ago ( i could be wrong).

The discussion was based on a condition mesmer, not a power build, so no greatsword and sword 3 is another power weapon, which even if you run with it the lack of power and crit means it wont hit hard.

The 5 second issue is because a condition mesmer is based on confusion, which is what is giving you those 5 seconds, if you are not attacking the mesmer is not doing its condition damage so it is impossible to burst them down.

Again a good ele wont lose to a condition mesmer or thief.

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

Stievie.6128:

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

I question this:

Keep in mind eles have the lowest hp and armor in the game.

Bunker Guardians don’t have the kind of condition removal bunker eles have, but they also have TONS of aegis, which serves as resistance to condition application.

I’d like to see some real math, which takes into account a bunker guard’s effective toughness disparity with their condition removal, area blocks, and aegis into account.

Stievie.6128:

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

What condition removal? Outside cleansing wave, d/d got nothing to cleanse conditions and not everybody run with 3 cantrips+30 water

Arheundel.6451:

Stievie.6128:

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

What condition removal? Outside cleansing wave, d/d got nothing to cleanse conditions and not everybody run with 3 cantrips+30 water

From the wiki:
Grandmaster Trait:

Cleansing Water
Remove a condition when granting regeneration to yourself or an ally.

Ultraform.1508:

Arheundel.6451:

Stievie.6128:

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

What condition removal? Outside cleansing wave, d/d got nothing to cleanse conditions and not everybody run with 3 cantrips+30 water

From the wiki:
Grandmaster Trait:

Cleansing Water
Remove a condition when granting regeneration to yourself or an ally.

Huh? You’re talking about a trait like everybody use it, I was talking about the weapon set itself, there is almost no condition removal at all on d/d

Arheundel.6451:

Ultraform.1508:

Arheundel.6451:

Stievie.6128:

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

What condition removal? Outside cleansing wave, d/d got nothing to cleanse conditions and not everybody run with 3 cantrips+30 water

From the wiki:
Grandmaster Trait:

Cleansing Water
Remove a condition when granting regeneration to yourself or an ally.

Huh? You’re talking about a trait like everybody use it, I was talking about the weapon set itself, there is almost no condition removal at all on d/d

the thing is looking at other bunker builds their condition removal just isnt as good.
like for example look at a bunker mesmer (granted mesmers have kittening good utilitys) they have null field and the boon/condi swap on lengthy cooldowns while attunement switching and evasive arcana dodges are semi spammable.

Arguably bunker D/D or S/D eles perform great vs sustained and burst dmg atm, the sustained healing and condition removal and even some kind of burst healing via attunement switch/dagger5 (~4.5k). I just think our good condition removal coupled with the tools we have to avoid/reduce incoming burst (mistform, earth armor, shock aura ect) and the mobility is a bit over the top even if it comes at the price of dmg output.

Id just rather see a dynamic established where bunkers are just bad vs condition specs and so on (like i said in my first post) because then we can talk about further rebalancing. Destroying another weaponset(or better said build) completely doesnt solve anything in the long run.

As for the glasscannon D/D´s there isnt realy much to worry about since generally as a glass cannon you win with burst vs conditions not with cleansing and outsustaining and that is very well possible as an D/D ele.

Another thing id like to point out concering builds in general is: why are all the stun breaks cantrips? i get why obsidian armor and mistform have that effect but cleansing fires? Like shift atleast 1 stunbreak from cantrips onto arcanes to give more offensive D/D builds something to toy with .

I wish they would change EA in water to not be a Cleansing Wave, but damage and slow instead, and switch/alter a few traits, than nerfing so many other things that people suggest, which would ruin alternative builds. Remember that the problem is a bunker build that uses EA. It’s is an AoE healing skill with AoE cleansing every 10 seconds. Cleansing Wave on the dagger off-hand has a 40 second CD, so EA is rather ridiculous in strength.

I believe that takes the bunker ele too far. Two eles working together will be nigh impossible to kill due to that.

Keep in mind that they only need to tone down the bunker build, and not ruin the profession as a whole. I still have my hopes up for them to buff focus, scepter and staff, utilities, traits and the like, so we will have more viable options.

Stievie.6128:

Arheundel.6451:

Ultraform.1508:

Arheundel.6451:

Stievie.6128:

The one and only warranted nerf against bunker eles would be to fix their condition removal . like said countless times before the pvp trinity of guild wars should be bunker>glass cannon, condition> bunker, glass cannon> condition.

If you nerf eles condition removal , wich is absurd as it is now playing one myself, you basicly keep everything that makes this skill setup viable for tanking burst but it opens them up to more condition builds other than necros with corrupted boon.

I completely agree on that D/D eles survivability is too good as it is now but that isnt because of the sustained heals but because of a kittenton of condition removal ontop of it.

If you take away the heals/tankability and leave the condition removal as it is you basicly solve nothing other than keeping eles somewhat good vs condition specs (that arent necros) while making them bad vs glass cannons , i dont see the point in that. I hope the dev´s make the smart decision and take some of our condition removal and actually try to establish some kind of PvP dynamic instead of nerfing yet another weapon set to oblivion.

What condition removal? Outside cleansing wave, d/d got nothing to cleanse conditions and not everybody run with 3 cantrips+30 water

From the wiki:
Grandmaster Trait:

Cleansing Water
Remove a condition when granting regeneration to yourself or an ally.

Huh? You’re talking about a trait like everybody use it, I was talking about the weapon set itself, there is almost no condition removal at all on d/d

the thing is looking at other bunker builds their condition removal just isnt as good.
like for example look at a bunker mesmer (granted mesmers have kittening good utilitys) they have null field and the boon/condi swap on lengthy cooldowns while attunement switching and evasive arcana dodges are semi spammable.

Arguably bunker D/D or S/D eles perform great vs sustained and burst dmg atm, the sustained healing and condition removal and even some kind of burst healing via attunement switch/dagger5 (~4.5k). I just think our good condition removal coupled with the tools we have to avoid/reduce incoming burst (mistform, earth armor, shock aura ect) and the mobility is a bit over the top even if it comes at the price of dmg output.

Id just rather see a dynamic established where bunkers are just bad vs condition specs and so on (like i said in my first post) because then we can talk about further rebalancing. Destroying another weaponset(or better said build) completely doesnt solve anything in the long run.

As for the glasscannon D/D´s there isnt realy much to worry about since generally as a glass cannon you win with burst vs conditions not with cleansing and outsustaining and that is very well possible as an D/D ele.

Another thing id like to point out concering builds in general is: why are all the stun breaks cantrips? i get why obsidian armor and mistform have that effect but cleansing fires? Like shift atleast 1 stunbreak from cantrips onto arcanes to give more offensive D/D builds something to toy with .

Not at all….played against unkillable bunker engineers-thieves-rangers that perform much better than d/d ele, the thing is once you know how a profession play it’s easy to counter it…NO BUNKER ELE up this very moment has been able to survive against me and another decent player on any class, because there is no way the bunker can kill any of us…but a bunker mesmer and engineers can easily kill you off with clones spamming and confusion stack, just because eles are known for bunekr builds doesn’t mean they are the strongets bunker build: no CC, no de-capping capability and not enough dmg in general…you’re just a stationary target that can be easily killed if the 2 players got half-brain

Stievie.6128:

the thing is looking at other bunker builds their condition removal just isnt as good.
like for example look at a bunker mesmer (granted mesmers have kittening good utilitys) they have null field and the boon/condi swap on lengthy cooldowns while attunement switching and evasive arcana dodges are semi spammable.

Shatters are semi spammable too and can be traited to remove a condition.

In my opinion, the current fotm d/d ele is viewed as OP by other classes since the build specializes in survivability and defense whereas most professions are built glass-cannons. But the truth is, other professions have the capability of speccing the same fashion as this d/d ele spec and peform similarly, if not better. The problem is that most players want big numbers and when their big numbers can’t kill, they qq.

Seriously, ele’s are right in the middle from what I can see. I feel we are on a good level with warriors. They are balanced quite well with rangers, which probably need a slight power boost.

However our staff aim like kitten, is slow as kitten, and does kittenty damage.

We barely have enough health if we try to make a precision or damage build, and even then we can hurt a lot of people at once but rarely can get close enough to finish them because we die in 2 or 3 hits. Versus a thief we have ZERO chance, it’s not even worth trying to fight, I just let my character kittening die instead of pathetically trying to run away. VS a mesmer we have a 15% chance to win.

You can make credible damage with the fiery great sword but have to run away immediately after to survive. Anyway, nerving the ele = bad idea.

I have an 80 ele, D/D, but as i play WvW with other classes i saw huge zergs made up almost completely of D/D ele’s-these ele’s don’t really kill you, but they also are nearly unkillable if they decide they want to escape- and so I’m calling for a nerf on cooldowns of defensive/escape skills. that’s it. keep the functionality the same but something has to be done with all the boon juggling and blink and all that. On my necro if I corrupt boon an ele with like 6 boons on, 2 seconds later he has 4, and 2 seconds after that it’s back to 6 it’s rediculous.

i want to use my ele in WvW but after fighting them non stop for the last 5 hours i don’t want to stoop down to their level. (So i play my broken ranger lol)