Guild Wars 2

@Lord Arhan Warmark.7098
Don’t apologise, even in advance I am ready to discuss anything and if I am wrong then good for me because then I can change and improve.

Allow me to clarify what I meant. We all have our skill level, and we all commit to a certain effort as well. For example, a lot of people are ready to put in the effort just to get the right input in order to complete content in a decent amount of time; but some people will train, learn, optimise their builds, their team and their strategies in order to achieve more. Those people do that certainly because they get satisfaction from feeling potent and achieving more – which is a personal goal no more valuable than any other. So by commitment I mean how much we are willing to get out of our comfort zone in order to reach a higher quality of input (level of skill). We all commit to a certain extent. I do not think any level of commitment is bad or good. As soon as you get out of your comfort zone in order to strive to achieve more, then you quickly contribute more to encounters. This is satisfying on a personal level for a lot of people, but most importantly it means that your team mates will have a easier time going through the content with you. In that regard, I believe that such attitude is altruistic. But this does not mean that not doing it is selfish: the player empowering his teammates does it only because he gets to satisfy his personal goal. It just happens that his personal goal has additional positive externalities. We all do this to some extent, it’s a matter of degree. For example Miku can solo pretty much anything while I can not do as much and as well, therefore he would contribute more to an encounter than I can, because he is more committed. I highly regard his performance. But I know I cannot put in the hours nor acquire the skill level to achieve as much as he does. I chose a level of commitment lower than Miku’s, and everything is fine.

As for the builds I advise, allow me to suggest taking a look at the PvE guide I wrote with Haviz on Dulfy.net. At no point do we say “this is the best way to play, this is the only way to play”. Quite the opposite. First of all we explain that a build is a response to a purpose. So we acknowledge that people have different goals and that not every build is a perfect match. We also acknowledge that it takes effort (commitment) in order to make some of our builds work. Then we develop three build archetypes. For each of these archetypes we also suggest a number of significant build variations. Most of these variations actually involve defensive builds that focus on helping less experienced players. You know, we have been inexperienced players at some point too! So we know the need for training wheels. However I am convinced that defensive stats are the least efficient training wheels, although I understand that people may need them just to feel more comfortable and enjoy their gaming experience.

I do tailor my advice to people. In fact I am almost never the one suggesting the most “meta” solutions. I am not really a “meta” player myself anyway! But I have the information, and I believe that information should be given to everybody so that they make enlightened choices according to who they are and what they want to achieve.

Edit: also take a look at the kind of things I used to write
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Build-Analysis
It’s funny to see that Kodiak was already arguing against me then, even though I was putting a lot of effort into analysing defensive gear, this guy just can’t get enough!

Kodiak.3281:

Principles, another vague term. How does one answer such a vague concept when you can’t properly define what you’re actually talking about?

One principle: divulge information. Even to those who don’t need it right now (within reason) because they could need it later.

Kodiak.3281:

If the merits of playing Berserker are so obvious and so widely accepted there should be no problems making a strong enough argument why they should be used without having to put down the rest.

They are. Talking about efficiency is not “putting the rest down”. And then, how do you think it is possible to explain that something is the most optimal without implying that other choices are less optimal? Like I told you before, it is impossible by definition.

Kodiak.3281:

You can clarify what you want about your guild leader but the words you choose to use form impressions.

You tried to use the description of Haviz, co-leader of my guild, in order to picture me as a brutish savage who cannot discern nuances. It turns out that my description of Haviz has nothing to do with how sensible he is, it turns out that Haviz is actually very capable of discernment, and so am I. Seriously you should stop with the gutter press arguments.

Kodiak.3281:

It doesn’t talk at all about the upsides of using defensive gear or the advantages it has

So… I should say “defensive gear increases your defenses” ?
Anyway, feel free to write about it bro.

Kodiak.3281:

When you make an argument like a class isn’t made to sustain hits it generally implies they have alternative methods to avoid getting hit entirely.

Yeah except no: I mentioned very clearly that I was only considering the passive attributes in order to say that the ele is not made to sustain hits. This was the introduction of my post. And then the core of my posts explains how you can use all the great defensive tools of the ele in order to solve the passive defense deficiency problem. My whole point is about using heals, condis, control, etc. Buuuuut you wantonly contradicted me on the premises, and then when I “called you out” you could not defend your “point” – no surprise: you are utterly wrong and only motivated by some personal grudge.

Kodiak.3281:

builds are just tools, but it’s the players that matter

Hello, that’s in the first paragraphs of the introduction of the guide I wrote two years ago.

Kodiak.3281:

From there you immediately switch it up to trying to attack me personally and bring up posts from years ago.

If quoting you becomes a personal attack then technically you are personally attacking yourself.

Kodiak.3281:

see that different players have different goals and there’s more efficient and optimal ways to reach those different goals.

Again, I clearly make this point in the introduction of my guide.

The problem with you divulging information is you are not objective in how you divulge information. You have an extreme bias towards what you feel is the most efficient and/or optimal route and purposely only frame arguments from that perspective.

A great example of this is this whole survivability discussion. You continue to maintain Elementalists aren’t made to sustain hits but this is done entirely from a biased viewpoint of only looking at armor and hit points. Even in your Dulfy guide you maintain this but only talk about general mechanics that literally every class has access to (dodging, movement, and distance control). This isn’t even an examination of the class but rather simple game mechanics all the while ignoring the actual sustainability we do have access to.

As I have told you numerous times it’s easily possible to make your arguments for a build without comparative analysis. For example clarifying and putting your claims into context such as Berserker gear is the most efficient/optimal gear for speed clearing a dungeon. It all comes down to showing respect for your fellow community goer and recognize we’re all here trying to help people and give them the benefit of our different experiences.

If you want people to have different impressions maybe you should use different words? Again, toxic and hates mediocrity doesn’t leave much to the imagination. Your words, not mine. If you say they’re not like that then okay just as well. I’ve never met or talked to them so I couldn’t really say I have an opinion one way or another.

Yea except no: you’re still wrong in either scenario because you aren’t looking at the class objectively to make that claim. Cherry picking two elements from us as a class and claiming that’s all there is to us is being willfully ignorant of the rest of our class. You’re making a decision to do more damage (in order to complete a speed run faster) and ignoring our built in sustainability and instead rely on base game mechanics (dodging, movement and distance control) instead. Instead of simply backing down or reclarifying that you mean when spec’d for offense you double down and pretend the only metrics that matter are armor and hit points (newsflash: even a full berserker warrior is paper and dies super easy without defensive gear/utility/traits!).

You post a lot of things in your stickied thread and your guide on Dulfy but you seem to forget them a lot and argue the points with me. I am never sure why, I assume it’s because it’s me and/or you forget them and when your point doesn’t stick you fall back on a more reasonable tone and advice.

Quoting a post is all about context. For example you bring up that old Condi build in an attempt to shame me because you feel it’s so bad. You see this in other threads as well where you attempt to bring it up as if you’re ‘dealing’ with an undesirable. While you think it’s a personal attack, I often times look at it as rather shameful for you where not only did your posts repeatedly get deleted (to the point you replied annoyed at the Moderator) but ultimately the OP in that thread got what they wanted, appreciated it, and we all moved on while you kept up the personal attacks. If you don’t want to be seen in that light, by all means discuss the points on topic and not make it personal. If you’re capable.

For a person who likes to reference themselves a lot and say things I’m saying are already in your guide you sure seem to disagree with what I have to say. So if every player has different goals, and every goal is various optimal routes to get there, how can you correctly critique someone else’s advice for a build if you are unaware of their goals or what will work best for them? How can you say for sure you are doing them a service by pooping all over my more defensive advice when that may be the best advice for them?

PS: On your whole “Build Analysis” post not only did I say I appreciate the numbers I merely wanted them put into context of actual numbers. Paraphrasing from my reply there, theory crafting the difference between 6 damage taken and 10 damage taken seems rather insignificant. This was the same as others were saying, the math is fun and we like the math (especially back when no one was doing math), but what actual significance does any of it have?

Kodiak.3281:

The problem with you divulging information is you are not objective in how you divulge information. You have an extreme bias towards what you feel is the most efficient and/or optimal route and purposely only frame arguments from that perspective.

Yeah it is true. I am extremely biased towards objectively good choices. Can’t help it.

Kodiak.3281:

A great example of this is this whole survivability discussion. You continue to maintain Elementalists aren’t made to sustain hits but this is done entirely from a biased viewpoint of only looking at armor and hit points. Even in your Dulfy guide you maintain this but only talk about general mechanics that literally every class has access to (dodging, movement, and distance control). This isn’t even an examination of the class but rather simple game mechanics all the while ignoring the actual sustainability we do have access to.

Nowhere near true. You read the introduction of the Dulfy guide, good. Now go on and read about all the defensive assets that I explain in the core of the guide then come back here and tell me if I am talking only about general mechanics. Also, I give defensive builds at the end. Well in fact I cover everything.

Kodiak.3281:

As I have told you numerous times it’s easily possible to make your arguments for a build without comparative analysis. For example clarifying and putting your claims into context such as Berserker gear is the most efficient/optimal gear for speed clearing a dungeon.

A great example Kodiak! Now tell me how saying “most efficient” is not a superlative term As soon as you use superlatives, you are comparing. Besides, a build is a choice! It is a specialisation. You pick the elements that you prefer out of a pool of other elements that you do not desire. You compare assets and pick the best. Like I told you, by definition.

Kodiak.3281:

If you want people to have different impressions maybe you should use different words?

Or you could stop having impressions and instead stick the the actual meaning of the words I use.

Kodiak.3281:

Yea except no: you’re still wrong in either scenario because you aren’t looking at the class objectively to make that claim. Cherry picking two elements from us as a class and claiming that’s all there is to us is being willfully ignorant of the rest of our class.

Good, because that’s exactly what I never did.
Stop having impressions. Look at what I actually said. Notice how wrong you are to contradict me.

Kodiak.3281:

Quoting a post is all about context. For example you bring up that old Condi build in an attempt to shame me because you feel it’s so bad.

Actually your post is a perfect example of how I did not try to divert you from using condis but instead I encouraged you to improve your build idea to be more efficient. Your build was highly inefficient, therefore there was a lot to say about it. But speaking of personal attacks, surely you have noticed that I do not downplay any of your arguments by bringing anything not related to the topic into the discussion like you do (my guild, my main account, the alleged language barrier). Instead I quote you on topics that are exactly related to what we are discussing. It’s not my fault if you are so keen on gratuitous contradiction that you even contradict yourself.

Kodiak.3281:

pooping all over my more defensive advice

I call it less efficient. It’s a fact. It’s an objective fact that stands what ever the person’s goals and abilities. It does not mean that defensive gear is not good, and maybe this gear could help them. But maybe you should stop being offended by the objective fact that defensive gear is less efficient.

_

And yes, I am dealing with an undesirable. You are the only person who has problems with what I do. You are the only person who has problems with what we do as a community. Coincidentally you are the only person with whom we cannot seem to have a constructive conversation. I got your point years ago. I answered it. And you are still ranting, making erroneous claims, twisting my words and perpetrating personal attacks. All this for this for what? I do not have the slightest idea.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being biased, but if you’re biased then you can’t be objective. An objective person can see the weaknesses but also the strengths and an objective viewpoint doesn’t discuss one without the other. You continuously claim that what you provide is objective criticism but it is in fact biased towards what you feel are good choices.

Actually everything I just said regarding your views was directly taken from your “1.2” section on Survivability from your Dulfy guide. Furthermore in section three you quite state that people should only use Berserker gear. You don’t discuss alternatives nor do you suggest different routes but simply double down (something which multiple people don’t respond to well down in the comments section of the Dulfy guide). I did however find it hilarious you link a 06044 build that I run complete with Cleansing wave!

The problem isn’t the build advice, if you remember, but the context in the way you put it. You will never see me recommend 06044 S/D with Soldier/Zerker mix and state that it’s going to the best at speed runs. What’s not needed is for you to come in after the fact and state it’s a bad build, bad idea or bad advice. You’re just as capable of making an argument to the OP of that (imaginary) topic to keep working on Berserker because <insert merits why>. The point here is you can make your argument without tearing down or disparaging on any advice that isn’t what you’d recommend. This fictional OP can now read all the advice and make their own decision of what tool will work best for them based on their goals. It’s really not a difficult concept.

When you use language to convey something those words have definitions. When you choose to use words like “toxic” and “hates mediocrity” all those words have definitions. Blaming me for your choice of words is pretty much a perfect analogy for this discussion as any I suppose.

That is literally what you did and do. You do it in your 1.2 section of your guide. You did in that post. You keep doing it in your responses. You say, “Look at our health and armor it’s so bad we can’t take hits!” which is only part of the character. This isn’t an impression, this is what you’re doing. Is this more language barrier issues? Do you understand that armor and hit points are only some aspects of a character and there is more to a character than that?

Except you never did say anything about it. You spent literally your entire time talking about my game play in a video that was made in response to someone who said that build would have zero survivability. It’s all there documented. Also you downplay everything. You can’t even admit that Elementalists have sustainability even when the proof is being thrown into your face. You do nothing but try to dismiss or ignore any kind of question that directly challenges what you’re saying and often claim you “already answered that” but never actually do. Even here you’re not even answering the fact you’re clearly shown speaking in a derogitory manner (let alone quote that part) but rather trying to spin it around to me. Why don’t you answer why you make posts like that instead?

Except as we’ve discussed numerous times it’s not less efficient because saying something is less efficient without context is factually incorrect. Could you say it’s less efficient at speed running a dungeon? Sure. Could you say it’s less efficient for lazy progressing through a dungeon and completing content? Nope. Maybe you should be less offended that not everyone wants to speed run dungeons all the time and just want a nice easy spec to run dungeons at their own pace and alternative builds are more efficient at that?

I am far from the only person who has a problem with what you do but I’m kinda the only one willing to put up with the fact, despite claims to the contrary, you aren’t the kind of person who changes their views. This is why we can’t have a constructive conversation because you clearly don’t respect people or their viewpoints and I will return that same level of disrespect in kind. You don’t even have to go three pages into your post history to see you disrespecting other people beyond me.

You can understand my point entirely (you shouldn’t put down other people’s advice), but even if you think you answered it (you think it’s your right to put down whatever you want) you certainly never changed my opinion on the matter because every argument you’ve ever made in favor of it doesn’t hold up. You can talk about being objective, efficiency, optimal, princples, or misunderstand what’s in your own guide but none of it stands up under scrutiny.

Kodiak.3281:

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being biased

Except I am not. I give all the good information, regardless of the fact that my personal preference is for DF.

Kodiak.3281:

did however find it hilarious you link a 06044 build that I run complete with Cleansing wave!

Great! Let’s all have good laughs while you realise that I give diverse advice to match different people’s needs.

Kodiak.3281:

This fictional OP can now read all the advice and make their own decision of what tool will work best for them based on their goals.

Yep. And by the way Berseker gear is the most efficient (you get more for the right input) and this applies not just to speed running. It amazes me that you fail to understand I am not even a speed runner nor a meta player.

Kodiak.3281:

When you use language to convey something those words have definitions. When you choose to use words like “toxic” and “hates mediocrity” all those words have definitions. Blaming me for your choice of words is pretty much a perfect analogy for this discussion as any I suppose.

And the definition of these words is…

there’s really only black and white (or “good” and “bad”) rather than the various shades of grey in between which makes these misunderstandings go even further.

…or not at all? Looks like you are confusing definitions with what twisted impressions your brain gives you to fuel your rage against me. Quite a good analogy for this discussion indeed.

Kodiak.3281:

Do you understand that armor and hit points are only some aspects of a character and there is more to a character than that?

Ah well you know I only posted so many defensive builds, I only did a lengthy sustainability analysis (that you tried to trash), and I talk about the active defensive tools of the ele in all my guides and so many of my posts. It’s like one half of your brain does not acknowledge that I talk about defense and the other half does acknowledge it but decides to trash my work for some reason – like “optimising is pointless”.

Kodiak.3281:

Except you never did say anything about it. You spent literally your entire time talking about my game play

Ok Kodiak, like you say, It’s well documented, so let’s check what we can find:

As for the traits, this is an attempt to make use of conditions as an Elementalist. One of the major flaws I can find in it is that you either damage your targets with burn or with bleed, almost never with both. Therefore the fire traits are useless when you are in earth and the earth traits are useless when you are in fire, or in any other attunement. Notice that the OP has linked his gear set up for you to consider. He advocates using a sigil that chills on weapon swap and a sigil to increas chill duration. Keep in mind that with such build you will not be able to swap attunements that often and that you only have one source of chill.

Oh! What is this? It’s a critique of the build is it not? What a surprise!
It’s amazing what we can find when we just read.

Maybe you are right Kodiak, maybe there is indeed a language barrier, in addition to the logic barrier and the honesty barrier

Kodiak.3281:

You can understand my point entirely (you shouldn’t put down other people’s advice), but even if you think you answered it (you think it’s your right to put down whatever you want) you certainly never changed my opinion on the matter because every argument you’ve ever made in favor of it doesn’t hold up. You can talk about being objective, efficiency, optimal, princples, or misunderstand what’s in your own guide but none of it stands up under scrutiny.

Your scrutiny has shown only one thing: your point of view changes like the wind.

I don’t put down other people’s advice. I only talk about efficiency, which is objective: it means “you get more for the right input”.

If you have anything to say about that then do it. Be constructive.

Except all the advice you’ve ever given in your post history is to follow you Berserker guide on the top of the forums where you clearly state Berserker is the best option with a tiny, inaccurate paragraph on how to gear defensively and the Dulfy guide where you don’t cover alternative gear at all. You say you give alternative advice, prove it. You’re making a claim, back it up with proof.

The funny part is people like you bash on that build despite giving the advice elsewhere apparently. Is that dated advice that’s no longer applicable or do you just have a personal grudge against me when I give that same advice?

You can keep claiming it’s the most efficient like a broken record but until you can prove it’s the most efficient it’s all just words. You admit different players do better with different builds and give the advice that works best for them. It’s logical to assume they will perform the most efficient in a build that works best for them. How do you reconcile that principle with a blanket statement that Berserker is the most efficient? To me it seems pretty clear that if a person can’t complete content (because it’s not right for them) in Berserker that’s not very efficient.

You say toxic and hates medocrity. I think elitism. Elitism is a view in which there are good players and bad players which is a very black and white view of things. These are merely logical conclusions from the words you use. If you say that conclusion is wrong, I’m just as content to believe that as again I don’t know the person.

The analysis of survivability was pointless because it amounted to, “Specing into water gives you slightly more survivability than specing into Arcane.” Which honestly with the fact that the Water line gives Vit/Healing as base stats should kinda be obvious. For my part, I didn’t trash it, in fact I praised it but said it needed the correct gravitas. Your numbers were literally 1.19 vs 1.09 and 6.17 vs 6.06 which are trivial enough numbers that it’s not like it couldn’t be explained away with the difference of a 00044 vs 00026.

For a person who seemingly claims they talk a lot about the active defense tools of an Elementalist you also seem to claim a lot that an Elementalist wasn’t made to sustain hits. Those active defenses our class was made with (boons, heals, condi management) makes us very much able to sustain those hits. If your argument is still that we have the lowest armor/hit points and therefore weren’t designed to sustain hits I’d counter argue that is irrelevant because any class, even warrior, if they ignore their defensive utilities, skills are unable to sustain through hits.

I’ll admit I didn’t make it down that far cause I read 70% of the post as personal attacks I just stop reading and will admit the assertions never talking about the build itself was wrong. I will however maintain you still don’t attempt to provide a useful alternative and you don’t link or talk about any kind of alternatives.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Your scrutiny has shown only one thing: your point of view changes like the wind.

I don’t put down other people’s advice. I only talk about efficiency, which is objective: it means “you get more for the right input”.

If you have anything to say about that then do it. Be constructive.

My view has never changed. You should not do comparative analysis of people’s posts and dispariage, trash, judge or dismiss other people’s advice on this forum. Just like your view has never changed, you feel you are providing objective input and everyone has the right to know what you see as facts regarding their advice. What changes is the arguments regarding these views.

You claim your criticism is objective. I don’t see objectivity, but rather I see your constant bias towards a particular spec. You in turn see this as my own bias against that spec. I show that in all your guides you always give full billing to your bias but anything else you give token comments on and don’t elaborate. A truly objective person would not only provide the criticism to a build (it completes content slower) but also talk up the merits of the build (it makes content much easier). You don’t answer this, you just keep stating you are objective.

You claim Berserker gear is the only efficient and optimal way to play, but you also admit that it doesn’t work for all people. I say that whatever gear players are capable using is their most efficient gear because if they just die over and over in Berserker that isn’t helping anyone. To use your words: “you get more for the right input” except there are people who can’t provide that right input and therefore won’t get the most out of that build and therefore it’s not the most efficient for them. You still don’t answer this and just keep claiming Berserker gear is the most optimal regardless of what you’re doing or who’s using it, but people are free to use whatever inefficient gear they can use and that’s perfectly OK.

You claim everyone wants to improve their game play and strive to be better and Berserker is the only suit of gear that lets you achieve maximum skill. I counter claim with that not everyone cares about being best in a game with terrible PvE and most of us just want the reward and the end and move on. While you agree PvE is bad and hardly worth doing anymore, you also agree that different players have different reasons for playing the game and doing PvE, and you agree that there are different tools that are right for different people you still think it’s right to swoop in and say alternative advice is inefficient and bad even if it works for the person.

We could also go on about the personal attacks (on both sides) but I’m hoping we’re largely done with those but it’s hard to tell!

This entire thread is still about whether or not it’s right to critique advice others give. The point hasn’t changed even if the arguments for or against such activities has changed

Kodiak.3281:

You say you give alternative advice, prove it. You’re making a claim, back it up with proof.

Sure thing! In the Dulfy guide I give no less than eight different builds to work with. And for many of these builds I mention additional options. But most importantly I explain that these builds are just examples of the efficient choices that can be made using the assets we have at our disposal. And guess what, I spend the vast majority of the guide talking about all the different assets we can use, when and how to use them, so that people can pick the best response to the content they are facing.

Kodiak.3281:

The funny part is people like you bash on that build despite giving the advice elsewhere apparently. Is that dated advice that’s no longer applicable or do you just have a personal grudge against me when I give that same advice?

I have never seen you give the same advice (I could have missed a post though, I don’t live in the forums), and I have never “bashed” that build. If you had read the old versions of my DF guide you would have seen that I used this build for a long time while I was learning the game.

Kodiak.3281:

You can keep claiming it’s the most efficient like a broken record but until you can prove it’s the most efficient it’s all just words.

Like I told you before, if I was wrong there would be a mob of clever theorycrafters calling me out on this. I have the means to prove my points, but that involves maths, so I’ll spare you the details

Kodiak.3281:

You admit different players do better with different builds and give the advice that works best for them. It’s logical to assume they will perform the most efficient in a build that works best for them. How do you reconcile that principle with a blanket statement that Berserker is the most efficient?

Ok I feel that we are getting to the core of the issue here, good. You say “It’s logical to assume they will perform the most efficient in a build that works best for them”, but you should not say “most efficient”, you should say that they will perform better. Let’s distinguish efficiency and the idea of achieving more: you can achieve more by increasing your efficiency if you have the right input, but if you do not have the right input then it makes sense to use less efficient builds that are nonetheless more adapted to your skill level. So berseker is the most efficient gear set but it does not mean that it will automatically make you achieve more, it enables you to achieve more. What I do in my guides is that I tell people about the many ways they could improve their input in order to survive without having to resort to less efficient gear sets.

Kodiak.3281:

You say toxic and hates medocrity. I think elitism. Elitism is a view in which there are good players and bad players which is a very black and white view of things.

Well, I did not say elitism. Also, I put “toxic” in between quotes.

Kodiak.3281:

The analysis of survivability was pointless

You did not read the whole thread. Also, nobody had ever done it before me. I was only half way to my goal of being able to analyse all the defensive tools and already you were arguing against me. Do you realise how much this destroys the little credibility that you may have? I was making the first steps this community had ever made in order to help people optimise their survivability, and you come and simply state that my work is pointless. I was making accurate models, I was making quantified arguments, all this in order to help people. A few posts earlier you asked me to dedicate my energy to finding the best “lazy” ways to overcome the content. Well you see, I was doing just that and you were far from being supportive.

Kodiak.3281:

For a person who seemingly claims they talk a lot about the active defense tools of an Elementalist you also seem to claim a lot that an Elementalist wasn’t made to sustain hits. Those active defenses our class was made with (boons, heals, condi management) makes us very much able to sustain those hits. If your argument is still that we have the lowest armor/hit points and therefore weren’t designed to sustain hits I’d counter argue that is irrelevant because any class, even warrior, if they ignore their defensive utilities, skills are unable to sustain through hits.

Yeah it’s not really a counter. I never said that warriors are made to sustain hits. Yet they are relatively better at this. I agree that the ele has the tools in order to recover from hits taken. But my point is that the ele has even better tools that allow us to not take hits.

Kodiak.3281:

I’ll admit I didn’t make it down that far cause I read 70% of the post as personal attacks I just stop reading and will admit the assertions never talking about the build itself was wrong. I will however maintain you still don’t attempt to provide a useful alternative and you don’t link or talk about any kind of alternatives.

Wrong. First the post was commenting on your performances in the WvW and the PvP videos that you provided. I know that this can sometimes be perceived as personal attacks (“making someone look bad” is a personal attack according to the code of conduct, but I can’t help it if there was no way to make you “look good” and still point out all the mistakes you were making), and to be completely honest I was mad at you because of your arrogance and your irrationality. But what I said is entirely true and objective. If someone would comment on my play-style objectively then I would be glad because it would help me improve. I would never dare to publish a video where my performance is below average though, but that’s just my personal preference. Second, I did talk about alternatives. Third, do read 100%. Only if you read all of what I write without interpreting then we can overcome the communications problems that we seem to have, furthermore you will see that I did talk about alternatives (succinctly, I admit, but like I said they were better builds posted exactly on the same week), and you will see that I did objectively criticise your build.

Btw, does it not shock you that you repeatedly claimed I did not criticise your build and that I did not mention alternatives while you had only read 70% of my post? You know, I can’t help but thinking that you do that for all my posts and that is why it is impossible to have a constructive debate with you.

This thread is all nice, especially this lively debate but I have to agree with Zelyhn that defensive utilites+traits+berserker’s gear is much better training wheel than some mix of soldier’s or knight’s because gear is not easily replaceable.

Okay, that’s really fascinating about alternative builds. Now like I was saying in the rest of the part you don’t quote please feel free to show the section in the Dulfy guide where you discuss alternative gear. You have a paragraph on it in the forum post stickied here, that’s it. I’m happy to have you prove me wrong again and show me the section where you talk about alternative gear sets

Claiming that theory crafters would be calling you out on something is a false cause. It’s the equivalent of saying if I was wrong God would strike me dead where I stand and then showing you not dying as proof as being right. That doesn’t answer the point but rather establishes impossible criteria so that you could never be wrong because even if people did disagree with you (which they do quite often) you wouldn’t consider them theory crafters and thus not meet the standards you and you alone established.

We are getting to the core of the issue! Except we’re still overgeneralizing too many things. When you say something like “it enables you to achieve more” what are you talking about achieving? What metric are we measuring that one build is more or less efficient? What is it that a lesser skilled or lazy player on a more defensive build can’t do that a more experienced and motivated player could do on an offensive build? What does increasing their output they get from increasing their input yield?

I really actually did read the whole thread. The whole thing. All 3 posts. All the replies. It all amounted to having 4 points in Water and 4 points in Arcane is slightly (10%) more EHP and marginally (1.6?%) more EHP healed over 2 points in water and 6 points in Arcane. You put all the skills, traits, etc and broke them out in mathematical numbers and showed that putting more points in our HP/Healing tree yielded more HP/Healing. :| MY view, as seen clearly in that post, while super cool to break out the math numbers small percentages I think it would have been more useful if you showed actual numbers. Like 10% more up time on Protection would mitigate % of X/Y/Z (light, medium, heavy attacks) resulting in an increase of A/B/C more EHP (depending on attack). This way we can make better determinations because if 10% more up time on protection only amounts to 50 damage mitigated in a game where you can take thousands of damage that’s functionally useless. I wanted more details!

rotten.9753:

This thread is all nice, especially that vivid discussion but I have to agree with Zelyhn that defensive utilites+traits+berserker’s gear is much better training wheel than some mix of soldier’s or knight’s because gear is not easily replaceable.

Okay so the gear argument. There’s stupid different routes to get gear in this game.

Level in EOTM. By the time you’re 80 you’ll easily have 1000-2000 WvW Badges and can easily buy a full set of exotics at 80. They many, many stat types. This works great as a temporary set of gear cause you can’t break it down to get the upgrades.

Buy gear from Karma Vendors. I get a lot of various accessory types this way such as Soldier or Cavalier but admittedly not always the best selection. Again temporary set because can’t break down the gear.

Alternatively buy lower level gear and mystic forge + break it down and turn your karma into a load of money to either get mats or straight up buy the gear. Dem linen sales! A lot of Berserker weapons or other stats are available for relatively cheap on the AH because they’re some undesirable skin that’s common in Champ Bags. Use the profits to craft up a set for pretty cheap.

Win trade in SPvP for reward tracks. Tons of free weapons and gear here for your choosing. Bit longish though cause it takes 3 full tracks to complete a suit, can make it go way faster if you actually just SPvP in Unranked or Ranked instead.

Dungeon tokens straight up give gear. It’s very easy to do runs for either PVT gear (Ascalon catacombs) or Berserker gear (COF) at the same pace. Knight is arguably the toughest set as it’s Arah/SE which can drag on a bit (I usually just craft Knight gear).

Once you have even a basic suit, you can easily start farming Ascended items from fractals. Invest in a WvW Ascended Neck for your intial item for a mere 25 laurels (3 weeks of logging in). Day one you run 2 Fractals level 6-9 (68 relics). Day two you run a 6-9 fractal and then buy an Agony resistance and slot it in neck and then run a level 11 Fractal. Then repeat this for another 20 days and you should have enough Fractal Relics for Back piece and at least 4 different rings (possibly more with dailies) or use the extra Pristines and shorten that time down even further. Any decent guild will get you enough Guild commendations to buy Earrings to your heart’s content.

Gearing up in this game is far from hard and there’s so many different avenues to gear up it’s pretty hard to make gearing a reason not to play with passive defensive stats but on your build you want to play. This will teach you good habits and not to expect tools that you won’t have access to when you are full Berserker.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Yeah it’s not really a counter. I never said that warriors are made to sustain hits. Yet they are relatively better at this. I agree that the ele has the tools in order to recover from hits taken. But my point is that the ele has even better tools that allow us to not take hits.

But we don’t. The tools you bring up and talk about are generic tools that literally all classes have. Any class can dodge. Any class can stay at maximum melee range. Any class can use Soft/hard CC’s to control the mobs. The Elementalist defensive tools are boons, heals and condition management. A class like a Thief doesn’t have copious access to boons, heals or condition management and instead relies on mobility and stealth to avoid taking hits entirely.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

and to be completely honest I was mad at you because of your arrogance and your irrationality. But what I said is entirely true and objective. If someone would comment on my play-style objectively then I would be glad because it would help me improve. I would never dare to publish a video where my performance is below average though, but that’s just my personal preference. Second, I did talk about alternatives. Third, do read 100%. Only if you read all of what I write without interpreting then we can overcome the communications problems that we seem to have, furthermore you will see that I did talk about alternatives (succinctly, I admit, but like I said they were better builds posted exactly on the same week), and you will see that I did objectively criticise your build.

Btw, does it not shock you that you repeatedly claimed I did not criticise your build and that I did not mention alternatives while you had only read 70% of my post? You know, I can’t help but thinking that you do that for all my posts and that is why it is impossible to have a constructive debate with you.

What shocks me is you completely, repeatedly show and finally admit your bias against me but somehow think you can remain objective and factual. There is literally never going to be any point ever where any criticism you levy out will ever not be seen as a personal grudge against me just like anything I ever reply, critique or otherwise towards you will be seen the same. This is why there can never be a constructive conversation, there is no respect on any level to have a reasonable dialogue.

Do you really think I want to read a post that is 70% nit picking a candid video made to show off how survivable that spec was? “Hurr durr you’re standing in AOE in a video with Survivability literally in a titlte!”_ News flash: If you get petty and nit pick people aren’t going to continue reading something clearly coming from a biased view point. Even you admit that you would never release a video that wasn’t perfect because you know people would rip it to shreds and nit pick every tiny error you make Monday morning quarterback style. Bit hypocritical but that’s just me.

If you want me to actually read what you write, stay objective and don’t let your bias get the better of you. I’m not sure if you think repeating over and over, loudly that you’re objective makes you objective but that’s not how it works.

PS: The part where you say check out other builds. Couldn’t find it. I guess I’m just blind, could you be a dear and quote that here? Thaaaaaaaaaaaanks.

Kodiak.3281:

Okay, that’s really fascinating about alternative builds. Now like I was saying in the rest of the part you don’t quote please feel free to show the section in the Dulfy guide where you discuss alternative gear. You have a paragraph on it in the forum post stickied here, that’s it. I’m happy to have you prove me wrong again and show me the section where you talk about alternative gear sets

There’s no alternative gear because this is a game with active combat (which you seem to forget) thus the gear doesn’t change your gameplay, rather enforces it. And in instanced pve, which this guide is mostly about, there aren’t any defending objectives, which should point to the obvious – any discussion about alternative gear sets is fruitless because regretfully they don’t affect you as much as you would like.

Kodiak.3281:

But we don’t. The tools you bring up and talk about are generic tools that literally all classes have. Any class can dodge. Any class can stay at maximum melee range. Any class can use Soft/hard CC’s to control the mobs. The Elementalist defensive tools are boons, heals and condition management. A class like a Thief doesn’t have copious access to boons, heals or condition management and instead relies on mobility and stealth to avoid taking hits entirely.

I guess burning speed and arcane shield are nothing. I lived in lie this whole time.

Kodiak, it’s Zelyhn’s guide. He don’t need to put what you think should be there if he don’t want. That’s not an official Anet guide. That’s just a guide written by a player where he give the information he think is best.

If obviously think that the best way to go for new players that can’t go full meta is berserker gear with more defensive build then he have all the rights to write that in HIS guide. That’s debatable, there is other options that will fix better depending on each people, but he don’t need to put alternative gear if he don’t think that’s a good idea. You are free to create your own build and if more people think your way is better, then more people will follow your guide. It’s not like Zelyhn dodged the question all together he clearly wrote in his guide :

‘’It is advised that even beginner elementalists invest in Berserker gear, as defensive stats are an inefficient way of gaining defence. Instead in section 3 we disclose a number of builds making use of defensive assets that can be helpful for new players.’’ I think it’s pretty clear and fair.

Kodiak.3281:

Gearing up in this game is far from hard and there’s so many different avenues to gear up it’s pretty hard to make gearing a reason not to play with passive defensive stats but on your build you want to play.

Sure, sure, gear is easy to get. Retraiting is even easier and more effective.

This will teach you good habits and not to expect tools that you won’t have access to when you are full Berserker.

Doubtfully, if someone knows he doesn’t have to react because a passive defense will decrease the threat of an attack, he won’t get any good habit. On the other hand, using an active defense management is a conscious act.

rotten.9753:

This will teach you good habits and not to expect tools that you won’t have access to when you are full Berserker.

Doubtfully, if someone knows he doesn’t have to react because a passive defense will decrease the threat of an attack, he won’t get any good habit. On the other hand, using an active defense management is a conscious act.[/quote]

On that particular thing he got a point. For exemple, getting use to permanent vigor can be hard to adapt when you switch to a normal build. While for defensive passive stats it’s relatively easy to increase the number of zerker pieces gradually.

Both School of thought are right in the end. It depend on what the person want, what are his goal, etc, etc. Some people prefer to go for zerker right away and change build over time, other prefer to change gear over time. Both method have pros and cons.

Both schools are fine, personally in my experience trying to help some newers players, I’ve found that the defensive gear options biggest hurdle to get over is that it often leads to complacency. Why go zerk gear and learn to avoid damage if I can just stick in soldiers and take the hit fine. These people ignore much of the game because they found a comfort zone. That can be overcome if the player actually wants to get better and understand the game more thoroughly but that’s the pitfall I’ve seen a few people drop into using that route.

Of course the zerker route’s biggest thing to get over is the frustration of dying to the first big attack and being dead the whole fight >.<

Each has their pros/cons. 66002 DF build maybe knights/valk gear or even soldier is where I’d start telling them to get rares if they do that and start working on building a zerker set as that should be their goal and to never lose sight of that unless they want to be lazy (which is perfectly fine if you accept what you’re doing is being lazy).

Thaddeus.4891:

On that particular thing he got a point. For exemple, getting use to permanent vigor can be hard to adapt when you switch to a normal build. While for defensive passive stats it’s relatively easy to increase the number of zerker pieces gradually.

Following his own logic :

But we don’t. The tools you bring up and talk about are generic tools that literally all classes have. Any class can dodge. Any class can stay at maximum melee range. Any class can use Soft/hard CC’s to control the mobs. The Elementalist defensive tools are boons, heals and condition management. A class like a Thief doesn’t have copious access to boons, heals or condition management and instead relies on mobility and stealth to avoid taking hits entirely.

A dodge is a generic defensive tool. His point was that with berserker’s gear alone you won’t have access to boons, heals and condition management that would have with a different trait spread.

Rotten there are lots of gear alternatives. All of them work and allow you to complete dungeon content. Giving someone who can’t handle Berserker because they haven’t mastered the active combat yet or are simply an entirely lazy player and want to simply smash their way their content is poor advice. If someone is working their way up to using Berserker you shouldn’t give them added tools like extra Condition management, boons or heals that they ultimately won’t have access to. All you’re doing is teaching them how to overcome encounters with these defensive tools and not how to handle the encounters without access to them which is where they eventually need to be. Defensive armor can teach them how to play the character on their spec while being a bit forgiving and allowing them to eat some hits while they learn.

Every class fundamentally has some abilities to avoid damage. However pointing to a 75s cool down skill like Arcane Shield and making the argument, “See! See! We’re not designed to take hits!” seems awfully ignorant of the rest of the class and how it’s designed.

Thaddeus I’m 100% about him having his guide be whatever he wants it to be but him claiming it’s one thing when it clearly isn’t seems rather false. Don’t tell me there’s a whole section on defense when it’s literally a 3 line blurb on a defensive build and only a sentence on how Berserker gear is the best. It’s entirely misleading.

See I’m actually pretty objective about the whole thing and recognize there’s positives and negatives to both advice. My advice has the advantage of learning how to play the character without relying on defensive trait crutches that will teach you bad habits but has the disadvantage of requiring multiple suits of gear. Defensive trait build advice has the advantage of only needing one suit of gear but the downside of teaching you bad habits like getting used to extra condi cleanse, boons, healing and other defensive aspects the Elementalist is built with but forgoes with a full Berserker build. Ultimately it’s up to the user to decide what works best for them.

See I don’t care what advice Zelyhn gives. At all. In fact I wouldn’t have ever even looked at his guide if he hadn’t literally posted go read his guide like 20 times where he swore up and down such and such was posted there. I’m1000% with you that it’s up to the player to determine if that advice is going to work for them. However this needs to go both ways.

Jerus I’m the laziest kitten you never done met. Think all my characters have at least 2500 armor, 16000 hp and the rest in power/crit/crit dmg haha

rotten.9753:

A dodge is a generic defensive tool. His point was that with berserker’s gear alone you won’t have access to boons, heals and condition management that would have with a different trait spread.

That’s right you won’t have access to the majority of the sustain (defensive) tools that the Elementalist has built into the character. Instead you’re substituting access to those defensive tools from your build in favor of stacking defensive stats (toughness, vitality) in order to carry you through instead.

The reason is because when you use defensive traits for sustainability you form habits by having access to them. For example as Thaddeus brings up always having access to Vigor from crits with Renewing Stamina. If you’re always used to having that much Endurance regen, you learn to dodge based on that increased Stamina. Now if you switch to a 66200 build and lose that you have to form a new habit on how much to dodge. This extends to all aspects. For example I’m particularly fond of at least 4 in water because I’m used to getting Soothing Mist, Healing Ripple and a Condi cleanse all happening just for switching to water. That’s a habit I’ve built from playing 20 (4) Water for years now. When I do play 66002 I habitually switch to water because I’m used to those traits firing off and it’s like, “Oh, yea.” There are other important lessons to learn before using a Berserker spec like what conditions really need to be cleansed or not. Eating 5 bleeds may not be end of the world on a spec with more healing but on a Berserker build you can see that oh wow anything over 5 bleeds has to be cleansed ASAP.

What it comes down to is both routes have merits

Kodiak.3281:

Okay, that’s really fascinating about alternative builds. Now like I was saying in the rest of the part you don’t quote please feel free to show the section in the Dulfy guide where you discuss alternative gear.

I read you my friend, you asked me to prove that I give alternative advice – not gear – and I proved exactly that
I don’t give advice about other gear than berserker. Instead I explain how to survive without it. Like I told you before, feel free to write about alternative gear if you feel like it. But, judging from your comments in my Build Analysis thread, you don’t even like to talk about defensive gear unless you can use it to make a point against the absolute evil that I embody.

Kodiak.3281:

Claiming that theory crafters would be calling you out on something is a false cause.

That doesn’t answer the point but rather establishes impossible criteria so that you could never be wrong because even if people did disagree with you (which they do quite often) you wouldn’t consider them theory crafters and thus not meet the standards you and you alone established.

Really now? No. There are plenty of people that I consider to have the qualitative thinking required to challenge my views. In fact any one can do that, as long as they have cogent arguments – which you don’t.

Kodiak.3281:

We are getting to the core of the issue! Except we’re still overgeneralizing too many things. When you say something like “it enables you to achieve more” what are you talking about achieving? What metric are we measuring that one build is more or less efficient? What is it that a lesser skilled or lazy player on a more defensive build can’t do that a more experienced and motivated player could do on an offensive build? What does increasing their output they get from increasing their input yield?

I’m sorry to say this but if you can not conceive what is understood by “achieving more” then you should not bother with this conversation in the first place. Anyone who gives advice knows that the purpose of guidance is to help others achieve more. Why would you bother giving advice if you do not conceive how it could be helpful to others Kodiak?

Kodiak.3281:

I think it would have been more useful if you showed actual numbers. Like 10% more up time on Protection would mitigate % of X/Y/Z (light, medium, heavy attacks) resulting in an increase of A/B/C more EHP (depending on attack).

Light, medium, heavy attacks ???
Anyway, if you had understood the equations I used you would have understood that my model was way more efficient that anything you ever suggested.

Kodiak.3281:

The tools you bring up and talk about are generic tools that literally all classes have.

No. Read the guide.
Not all classes have sandstorm, not all classes can kite with GoEP, not all classes can hit in melee without being hit in melee, not all classes can deep freeze, etc. Read the guide.
Besides, all classes have defensive gear and that does not prevent you from spamming us with how you think we should talk about it (without optimising it of course, because “that’s pointless” according to you…).

Kodiak.3281:

What shocks me is you completely, repeatedly show and finally admit your bias against me but somehow think you can remain objective and factual.

I did not admit to any bias. I do not like you, it is true. But whether I like you or not is irrelevant: the points I make are valid. If I was actually biased you would be able to show that my points are not objective.

Kodiak.3281:

If you want me to actually read what you write

There is no “if”. When you make a statement based on what I say you have to read what I say first. That’s like basics in life.

Kodiak.3281:

My view has never changed. You should not do comparative analysis of people’s posts and dispariage, trash, judge or dismiss other people’s advice on this forum.

Bro, I have no problem with not trashing other people’s advice.
I am however going to divulge all the information I have, and yes most of that is going to be in relative terms, because that is the essence of choices.

Kodiak.3281:

You claim your criticism is objective. I don’t see objectivity, but rather I see your constant bias towards a particular spec. You in turn see this as my own bias against that spec. I show that in all your guides you always give full billing to your bias but anything else you give token comments on and don’t elaborate. A truly objective person would not only provide the criticism to a build (it completes content slower) but also talk up the merits of the build (it makes content much easier). You don’t answer this, you just keep stating you are objective.

A particular spec? Which one please?
And no, defensive gear does not make the content easier. It may however be the most adapted gear for a particular player at a given point in his learning experience, and the validity of the match between the gear and the player may make him have an easier time. But just like offensive gear is not automatic, defensive gear isn’t either.

Kodiak.3281:

I say that whatever gear players are capable using is their most efficient gear

No. It may be the gear that best match their play-style and skill level though. I use a precise vocabulary to distinguish between gear that gives you more for the right input and gear that is the best match for a given player at a given time. If you do not like my vocabulary then please suggest other words, but the concepts remain clearly distinct.

Kodiak.3281:

You claim everyone wants to improve their game play and strive to be better

Not everyone. Most people.

While you agree PvE is bad and hardly worth doing anymore

I do not agree with any of that.

you still think it’s right to swoop in and say alternative advice is inefficient and bad even if it works for the person.

I think alternative gear is less efficient, but I do not think it is “bad” – it is “good” if it works for the right person. Although it is an illusory fix for most people.

Kodiak.3281:

Rotten there are lots of gear alternatives. All of them work and allow you to complete dungeon content. Giving someone who can’t handle Berserker because they haven’t mastered the active combat yet or are simply an entirely lazy player and want to simply smash their way their content is poor advice. If someone is working their way up to using Berserker you shouldn’t give them added tools like extra Condition management, boons or heals that they ultimately won’t have access to. All you’re doing is teaching them how to overcome encounters with these defensive tools and not how to handle the encounters without access to them which is where they eventually need to be. Defensive armor can teach them how to play the character on their spec while being a bit forgiving and allowing them to eat some hits while they learn.

Every class fundamentally has some abilities to avoid damage. However pointing to a 75s cool down skill like Arcane Shield and making the argument, “See! See! We’re not designed to take hits!” seems awfully ignorant of the rest of the class and how it’s designed.

I can’t agree with that. If we’re talking about new players that don’t even know the content, it’s much beneficial in the long term to teach them a content first. And the best way to learn a content is through practice. Practising with all the tools you have on your disposal will make a new player much better at adapting in the a content. What I’m trying to say is that for me, a new player that knows his entire profession because he used most of his tools to overcome initial challenges should present a higher degree of personal growth than the one who focuses on passives to beat them.

That’s exactly what anet devs are trying to do with HoT by the way. The lead designer, in the interview, stated that they had much less idea about their combat system before the game was launched and now they have. He mentioned how players should use more tools they have at their disposals, tools that are e.g. your defensive skills or soft cc.

We’re not talking about learning how to farm dungeons where a memory muscle (habits) is probably a better idea. We’re talking about players who are yet to find their ideal gameplay style. Any new content (maybe HoT will bring some) won’t be as easy as the current dungeons at the start because they are unknown and you have no clue what sort of tools you should use. Therefore, not sticking to a particular set of tools makes you much more flexible.

Let’s say we miraculously get a brand new challenging content with HoT. Are you going to swap your gear when presented with the vision of team wipes instead of changing your build through traits, utility skills and maybe weapon sets (for other professions mostly)?

See I’m actually pretty objective about the whole thing and recognize there’s positives and negatives to both advice. My advice has the advantage of learning how to play the character without relying on defensive trait crutches that will teach you bad habits but has the disadvantage of requiring multiple suits of gear. Defensive trait build advice has the advantage of only needing one suit of gear but the downside of teaching you bad habits like getting used to extra condi cleanse, boons, healing and other defensive aspects the Elementalist is built with but forgoes with a full Berserker build. Ultimately it’s up to the user to decide what works best for them.

If you had post it on other forum you would have been reprimanded in seconds that there’s no such thing as a Berserker’s build because it’s a gear set. A gear set that only reinforces your playstyle but doesn’t rule over it.

I completely agree with Rotten

I’ve clearly been talking about gear. I mention gear before the part you quote a reply on. I mention your blurb in your stickied post and it’s non existence in your guide. This is just another example of cherry picking where I’m clearly talking about one thing and you misquote me and put it out of context.

And again you establish impossible criteria for discussion. Unless you deem a person of having a good argument then you dismiss them out of hand. That’s very convenient from a discussion standpoint. “I don’t like your ideas, therefore I am going to ignore them.” Why not just stick your fingers in your ears and hum as loudly as you can cause the bad man is saying things?

It’s a simple question. You say Berserker gear helps by giving you a higher skill cap (input) to get more output so you can achieve more. What more are you achieving? I want you to clarify exactly what it is you’re going to achieve more of with that increased output. You made a statement, now elaborate. Teach us Zelyhn, what more are we going to accomplish with a Berserker build. We get the idea. Higher skill cap lets you put more into it and get more out of it to achieve more. We don’t get dungeon rewards. We don’t get more XP. So what is this “more” we are going to be achieving? Or are you refusing to answer because you can’t answer and are just making things up? I honestly don’t know what more there to achieve please explain it!

Ya different damage values. I understood your equations just perfectly fine, I just wanted you to apply them to actual numbers. Furthermore if you want to be objective you should look at it on it’s own merits rather than trying to lash out at me or what I’ve done. Again I wanted more information and more actual numbers you can apply to in game beyond over generalized “If you spec more points into Health/Healing you’ll have more Health/Healing.”

Do you live in a bubble when it comes to other classes? Are you really so ignorant of them that you don’t realize they have similar (if not exact copies) of active skills? Just because I don’t have Chill on my Mesmer doesn’t mean I lack methods to slow down encounters (Cripple). Glyph of Storms? Hello, Mr Well of Darkness is calling. The concept of using your class’ soft and hard CC is not new or unique to the Elementalist. Maybe you need a break from the Elementalist for a bit and see what other classes have access to before you talk about what’s exclusive to the Elementalist?

This whole “defense” thing is just you being stubborn. Rather than be a reasonable individual who simply states, “Well Kodiak our goal is to speed run dungeons because I feel that’s the most optimal way to do the dungeon content. This means I need a full Berserker build and that means I can’t trait any of the defenses an Elementalist gets. Since this leaves me with base defenses, which are the worst, I have to rely on the base game mechanics to do this successfully.” you gotta fight me on every turn.

While I’m sure you believe you’re a stoic pillar of objectivity you’re simply not. You’ve already admitted that you will post replies in anger or frustration at me. You said you were done with this thread multiple times now, yet here you still are unable to walk away from a discussion you know won’t change anything. You state that I offer nothing to the community what so ever. You say I never make good arguments. Except a person who truly believed these things wouldn’t waste time arguing with a person like that. The fact you continue speaks far louder than any wall of text you or I have ever posted or any personal attack you hurl. The bias is as clear as day and your own actions speak far louder than any words you have on the topic.

Calling trashing other people’s advice as something else doesn’t make it any less trashing their advice. Not a hard concept but one I think you have difficulty with. See it’s all about intent. If you see an ugly person on the street, do you have to walk up to them and say, “Man, you’re ugly!” It’s all about tact and being respectful of others. If someone is making wild claims like “I do the most DPS with Scepter!” or “I speed run dungeons the fastest with 00266!” it’s pretty understandable to question it. However if someone is saying, “I have no problems beating game content with Scepter.” there’s absolutely no need for you to jump on in there and poop all over that point of view.

Obviously your bias is towards Berserker. Which spec? Hah. Also defensive gear does make the content easier. If you’re capable of taking more hits and eating more encounter mechanics it allows you to rely on higher EHP to brute force your way through content as you learn to avoid it entirely. While learning you likely aren’t going to play perfectly and defensive gear raising their EHP in some ways gives you training wheels so you don’t just immediately tip over if you lose your balance. If we only had a Build Analysis thread that measured EHP and EHP Healed/sec to compare armor vs spec and compare it to damage we see in various dungeon encounters to determine the most optimal amount of stats for a lazy defensive route….

I suggested you re-clarify your vocabulary to include the “What.” Most efficient…at what? Most optimal…at what? Achieve more…at what? Right now you have a lot of adjectives with no nouns to apply them to which turns them into blanket statements that there are far too many scenarios that can show where they are wrong.

I can only go off what you say about PvE. Again, your words :|

Once more into the circle ’round and ’round we go! So you say defensive armor is less efficient. The compared alternative, offensive gear, is considered more efficient at letting you put more into it and thus receive more output to achieve more…what? This can reverse back down into you saying defensive armor is less efficient at achieving…what?

rotten.9753:

I can’t agree with that. If we’re talking about new players that don’t even know the content, it’s much beneficial in the long term to teach them a content first. And the best way to learn a content is through practice. Practising with all the tools you have on your disposal will make a new player much better at adapting in the a content. What I’m trying to say is that for me, a new player that knows his entire profession because he used most of his tools to overcome initial challenges should present a higher degree of personal growth than the one who focuses on passives to beat them.

Except in the end of the current Berserker meta, that’s exactly what they are doing. They’re ignoring any defensive traits they have in favor of kicking out the most amount of damage. When I play 06044 Fresh Air, switching to Water is a great refreshing healing me, cleansing condi, adding soothing mist, and even adding regen boon. How does knowing that help me at all when I’m on a 66200? Where is the benefit in knowledge that you can’t functionally use?

rotten.9753:

Let’s say we miraculously get a brand new challenging content with HoT. Are you going to swap your gear when presented with the vision of team wipes instead of changing your build through traits, utility skills and maybe weapon sets (for other professions mostly)?

Personally? I’ll adapt however I need to overcome content if I want the rewards. Whether that means gear, spec or both so be it. If they suddenly shift full 180 and do constant unavoidable damage and the only way to get past it is to rock defensive gear with a defensive build I got no qualms with that. Hell I do that already. Playing in a PUG doing fractals and people got no clue how to do Mai Trin I swap in the defensive gear and weapon setup and brute force my way through that encounter.

I am glad though they recognize the problem with the current encounter designs and will be addressing it. Should shake things up quite a bit I think. Personally I’m thinking they’re going to look at dungeon paths you don’t see people taking, like COF P3, and probably steal ideas from there as well as come up with a few others haha. Should be super interesting and I can’t wait (except for the 4 Revenant parties, not looking forward to that haha).

rotten.9753:

If you had post it on other forum you would have been reprimanded in seconds that there’s no such thing as a Berserker’s build because it’s a gear set. A gear set that only reinforces your playstyle but doesn’t rule over it.

That’s fair enough. When I say “Beserker build” I mean 66xxx typically also with full Berserker gear. Essentially all your points in Power/Precision lines and then the last 2 wherever. Losing access to defensive traits does very much rule over your play style however as it forces you to play either very conservatively or very aggressively.

Kodiak.3281:

Except in the end of the current Berserker meta, that’s exactly what they are doing. They’re ignoring any defensive traits they have in favor of kicking out the most amount of damage. When I play 06044 Fresh Air, switching to Water is a great refreshing healing me, cleansing condi, adding soothing mist, and even adding regen boon. How does knowing that help me at all when I’m on a 66200? Where is the benefit in knowledge that you can’t functionally use?

Partially true that meta builds don’t take defensive traits. Partially, because other classes take them. (Un)fortunately for us, eles builds together with thieves are the highest dps builds. Other professions build a bit different. We can blame the disability of devs to design much more interesting traits than +%dmg as well as -%cd.

To answer question, knowing your defensive tools is beneficial when your team cannot overcome a challenge. Or when a challenge is new and you want to attempt it safely. Obviously it doesn’t help you in your normal, “stabilised” play when you can optimise your build to a specific content. For example, people that were soloing lupi in the past started with berserker’s gear (most of them) and with different kind of defensive utilities (like endure pain, signet of dolyak and balance stance or triple cantrips). After few attempts it was clear they didn’t need them and they optimised it. Soloing lupi isn’t that easy and the improvement of tools, not gear was noticeable.

Personally? I’ll adapt however I need to overcome content if I want the rewards. Whether that means gear, spec or both so be it. If they suddenly shift full 180 and do constant unavoidable damage and the only way to get past it is to rock defensive gear with a defensive build I got no qualms with that. Hell I do that already. Playing in a PUG doing fractals and people got no clue how to do Mai Trin I swap in the defensive gear and weapon setup and brute force my way through that encounter.

They won’t do it because it’s against their policy.

That’s fair enough. When I say “Beserker build” I mean 66xxx typically also with full Berserker gear. Essentially all your points in Power/Precision lines and then the last 2 wherever. Losing access to defensive traits does very much rule over your play style however as it forces you to play either very conservatively or very aggressively.

There are maybe 2 professions that use such builds.

Kodiak.3281:

Except in the end of the current Berserker meta, that’s exactly what they are doing. They’re ignoring any defensive traits they have in favor of kicking out the most amount of damage.

It depend what is the strenght of your profession and what the situation need.

For exemple, elementalist is better at dmg so they focus all on damage. It’s their strength in PvE, why would a meta go against that? But still Renewing Stamina is often presented as an alternative for those who need it.

And then you have other profession like Guardian that more than often bring master of consecration for more condi removal and reflect. And the 4/5/0/0/5 general purpose meta build with Absolute Resolution. Or you have a reflect build for Mesmer.

But you are right, now much defensive trait are use there. Most of the defensive aspect of meta build come from weapons and skills. That’s why the guardian bring retreat, WoR and purging flames so often. That’s why focus is such a popular choice. Or S/P is a popular choice with Pistol Quip for thief. Or Smoke Field that blind.

And that’s all part of the standard meta. How many people suggest Sigil of Energy or Arcane Shield or Guardian Hammer build, etc, etc for people than need a bit more defense than the standard meta.

I seriously think you guys need to take your debate to private messaging or in-game chat. It’s actually taking up space about the topic at hand whenever it happens.

Unfortunately Neko that just doesn’t work. If you saw the last PM’s we exchange it basically a Bugs vs Daffy sketch without Elmer Fudd. As I said repeatedly (and in those PMs) I just wish he’d end this obsession with me.

That’s perfectly true Thaddeus for other classes. Yet you read some of the “defensive” advice of players and it’s like swapping in Arcane Shield is suddenly a ground breaking ultra defensive move. I’m looking at 00266 builds tank their way through crazy spike damage and it’s like “Oh sure…Arcane Shield…super defensive.” To be honest there’s lots of ways to do variations of the same thing and honestly what does it matter if someone does things a little faster or a little slower? What’s the compelling reason to trash another way to do that content? Why do people care if it’s a little bit slower if the person isn’t lying and saying it’s the fastest? These are the real questions.

Rotten how is scaling back gear any different than scaling back traits? As Zelyhn’s own Build Advice posted you can equivocate those traits to EHP, no different than you can equip Toughness and Vitality and also increase your EHP. And just like as you get comfortable and don’t find you need as many defensive traits you can also scale back on your armor and slowly get to a stage where you’re entirely Berserker. Again the end destination is the same, the route in which you get there (EHP from traits vs EHP from gear) is simply different.

While unrealistic that they’d add it, we’ll see what they actually do. Beyond Phallanx Strength and Guardians it’s pretty Zerk heavy.

Kodiak.3281:

Rotten how is scaling back gear any different than scaling back traits?

It’s less flexible.

Sure seems to be pretty flexible when I swap gear around. Super tanky → super squishy → hybrid of both! → super tanky!

Kodiak.3281:

Sure seems to be pretty flexible when I swap gear around. Super tanky -> super squishy -> hybrid of both! -> super tanky!

So, 24 inventory slots are taken up for your 3 different gear sets? That doesn’t include alternate weaponry.

Sure, that’s just as flexible as the click a button to change trait system…;)

Jerus.4350:

So, 24 inventory slots are taken up for your 3 different gear sets? That doesn’t include alternate weaponry.

Sure, that’s just as flexible as the click a button to change trait system…;)

Out of my 160 slots 4 are used for weapons (D, D, S, F), 6 are used for jewelry, 6 are used for armor, 4 are used for ‘Misc’ (bank access, quartz gems, birthday blaster, etc), 10 are used for potions (flame legion, nightmare, inquest, undead, outlaw, ice brood, dredge, elemental, destroyer and svanir), 4 are used on foods and sharpening stones, another 6 on misc again (green/blue luck stacks, superior arrow carts, etc). That leaves the other 120 slots only with a Copper Fed Salvagomatic and a Silver Fed Salvagomatic.

This is nothing though now that I trimmed it to 2 sets. I used to run with 4 suits and alternative weapons (Soldier+Boon, Soldier+Divinity, Berserker, Condition). Used to have to do three invisible bags to cover everything!

For what it’s worth, I think people ought to leave be, and realize that when you PUG, you basically forfeit the right to complain about how terrible everyone is. If it’s that bad, you should run with a guild. Of course PUGing will lead to people playing terrible builds and strats. And it irks me that it’s a constant fascination of a lot of the people who run dungeons a lot to keep ragging on PUGs all the time. PUGs are terrible, duh. Welcome to the internet.

At the same time though, I do think it’s important to be honest about this fact from both sides of it. As in, even if content is competeable with a Nomad’s Gear Bearbow Ranger, it will be kittening painful to do so if you do this content on a semi-regular basis. It’s all doable, but we should be upfront with people who ask on the forums if such a thing works, and how well it works. “Can I take my Tank Build to Fractal 50?” Sure, you can. It will be like rubbing your face against a cheese grater every time you do so, and you will probably grow to hate doing any difficult instanced content (as opposed to spamming AC CoF SE HOTW) pretty quickly because of how slow it will take. But it is doable. Will you ever be efficient? No. Will you ever have a quick run? Rarely.

Everyone can run whatever they want, but there I do think we owe it to tell people that if they ever hope to do harder instanced content on a regular basis, it will be pretty bad. People deserve to know if stuff is bad. Everything is viable, but a lot of stuff is pretty bad. So everyone can make their suggestions when build advice comes up, but we shouldn’t get mad when it’s pointed out how bad some suggested build is, nor should we become indignant that some people don’t play the most efficient builds and just wanted to share some casual thing that they thought was fun.

Great insights as always Neko.

Completely agree with you regarding PUGing. It’s just how it is and how it will always be. As a person who runs PUGs pretty much exclusively it’s really formed most of my opinions. The varying levels of skill have always been par the course for PUGing and I run into it all. One group is amazing, the next group 1-2 guys are practically perma dead.

The key point to criticism is all about gravitas. You never see crazy scenarios where anyone is ever advocating playing in full Nomads on a 00266 spec in Water all the time. More importantly, no one suggesting any kind of defensive or hybrid build ever would state something along the lines that it’s the fastest at clearing content. In fact many cases it’s specific scenarios where the person either 1) Can’t complete the content in Berserker (always dying, etc) or 2) They know about Berserker builds and are uninterested and looking for alternatives. In one case such advice may serve as a temporary crutch and in the other exactly what they’re looking for. Generally speaking, these aren’t the kind of people worrying about doing harder instanced content.

Personally I’m in the hybrid camp based on the fact I PUG so many groups. The combination of decent offense (2000+ power, 45%+ crit, 200%ish crit dmg) and decent defense (2400+ armor, 15000+ HP) gives me the range to get through any scenario I run into. If a group is more DPS oriented I fit in just fine. If a group is more new and kiting and running around and I have to sustain my way through a longer fight I have the ability to do that. If this works well for me, it stands to reason that it will work well for someone else and that’s why I give this advice to people who aren’t looking for a Zerker build or struggling with one.

When you look at that complete picture that’s why it’s baffling to me. Why treat moderate advice as if you are recommending the other extreme? Why pretend that a Knight/Zerker mix (or similar) is the same as full Nomads or that the same Knight/Zerker mix (or similar) is really that far stats wise from full Zerker?

Neko.9021:

For what it’s worth, I think people ought to leave be, and realize that when you PUG, you basically forfeit the right to complain about how terrible everyone is. If it’s that bad, you should run with a guild. Of course PUGing will lead to people playing terrible builds and strats. And it irks me that it’s a constant fascination of a lot of the people who run dungeons a lot to keep ragging on PUGs all the time. PUGs are terrible, duh. Welcome to the internet.

I don’t recall doing that but if I ever pug it’s usually to complete a roster and that means I have a full control over my team squad. If someone doesn’t pull his weight, he’s just thrown overboard. Simple as that.

Kodiak.3281:

When you look at that complete picture that’s why it’s baffling to me. Why treat moderate advice as if you are recommending the other extreme? Why pretend that a Knight/Zerker mix (or similar) is the same as full Nomads or that the same Knight/Zerker mix (or similar) is really that far stats wise from full Zerker?

No one here is extreme, it’s just a mix of knight/zerker will have like 5-10% damage reduction which is hardly noticeable for a profession that eats dirt really fast if you try to tank hits. Imo, actives are much better, at least their effects are much more visible (though that would be a problem in teams that like to play meta).

Kodiak.3281:

I’m clearly talking about one thing and you misquote me and put it out of context.

Well the context was about proving that I give diverse advice tailored to people. Which I do. I used to talk a bit about defensive gear, but I do not anymore, and I justify that choice.

Kodiak.3281:

And again you establish impossible criteria for discussion. Unless you deem a person of having a good argument then you dismiss them out of hand.

And that is wrong? You would have me dismiss good arguments and base my discussions on bad arguments? … The discussions I have with most people here are objective. So if a point is valid it is valid for everybody, which is a pretty good criteria for discussion.

Kodiak.3281:

It’s a simple question. You say Berserker gear helps by giving you a higher skill cap (input) to get more output so you can achieve more. What more are you achieving?

First, distinguish the two aspects: berseker is more efficient because it increases your output if you have the right input, and berserker is the best way to learn how to have the right input. More output means more rewards, more experience, more help for your friends, etc, which for most people means more fun.

Kodiak.3281:

Furthermore if you want to be objective you should look at it on it’s own merits rather than trying to lash out at me or what I’ve done.

My model have its own merits. You happened to suggest an other model, whose merits happen to be lower than that of my initial model. Also, for someone who says that you give advice based on the person’s goals, you came on a thread where I clearly state my goal to quantify survivability from stats and you said it is pointless and that I should look at how much survivability protection gives instead Surely the paradox strikes you.

Kodiak.3281:

Do you live in a bubble when it comes to other classes? Are you really so ignorant of them that you don’t realize they have similar (if not exact copies) of active skills?

So because other classes have similar output as we do I shouldn’t talk about it??? We all do damage we all have control we all have dodge, ok bro, thanks. Now some of us are better at some of this than others.

Kodiak.3281:

This whole “defense” thing is just you being stubborn. Rather than be a reasonable individual who simply states, _"Well Kodiak our goal is to speed run dungeons

It is not

because I feel that’s the most optimal way to do the dungeon content.

I do not feel so

This means I need a full Berserker build and that means I can’t trait any of the defenses an Elementalist gets.

You can trait for all the defenses of the ele with a berserker build

Since this leaves me with base defenses

Again, no.

you gotta fight me on every turn.

Not my fault if you make erroneous statements on every turn. I count four just for this sentence.

Kodiak.3281:

While I’m sure you believe you’re a stoic pillar of objectivity you’re simply not. You’ve already admitted that you will post replies in anger or frustration at me.

Oh yeah I gladly admit that your lack of rationality makes me a bit mad. But the motives behind why I make a comment have nothing to do with the validity of the comment itself. I can dislike you and still make objective statements.

Kodiak.3281:

Calling trashing other people’s advice as something else doesn’t make it any less trashing their advice.

If objectively talking about efficiency is “trashing” for you then maybe the problem is you not me.

if someone is saying, “I have no problems beating game content with Scepter.” there’s absolutely no need for you to jump on in there and poop all over that point of view.

Indeed, and it is not a point of view actually it is a fact. Just like stating that scepter deals extremely low damage by itself is a fact. Stating a fact is not “pooping”. And finally if ever that person wanted to improve then it would be wise to let that person know about the ways they could improve.

Kodiak.3281:

defensive gear does make the content easier. If you’re capable of taking more hits and eating more encounter mechanics it allows you to rely on higher EHP to brute force your way through content

Berserker gear makes the content easier because if you are capable to hit harder and best encounters before subjecting yourself too much to their mechanics then it allows you to rely more on attack to brute force your way through content.
Yeah stats are good Kodiak, we all get that. But your choice of stats does not make anything easier. The choice of stats may however be a good match for your play style and skill level, which then makes it easier for you to complete content.

If we only had a Build Analysis thread that measured EHP and EHP Healed/sec to compare armor vs spec and compare it to damage we see in various dungeon encounters to determine the most optimal amount of stats for a lazy defensive route….

If only you did not state that such thread is pointless. Get coherence please.

Kodiak.3281:

I suggested you re-clarify your vocabulary to include the “What.” Most efficient…at what?

At increasing your output, which then enables you to be better at completing the content.

Kodiak.3281:

I can only go off what you say about PvE. Again, your words :|

My words, your reading misunderstanding, your wrong interpretation.
In that very message I explain that I am not a fan of speed running Kodiak. You just quoted a message that proves you wrong on so many points Kodiak. Kodiak…. Also, notice how nowhere in the message do I say that “PvE is bad and hardly worth doing”. Just please, please please, be rational.

Neko I agree with you.

I have no problem with continuing this “discussion” in PM. As a matter of fact all the points have been stated so many times. But I cannot let Kodiak spam false statements publicly without explaining why he is wrong every time. It is tiring for me too, believe me.

The context has always been I’ve never seen you recommend alternative gear builds for people. Every time you reply that you do all the time. I ask for proof, you say check your guides, and sure enough out of your two guides you have one tiny blurb on the topic and in the other don’t mention it at all. I don’t care if you wanna pretend that giving a token link to a defensive build with a two line summary amongst an ocean of words on offense is fair billing but don’t lie and say something is there that it isn’t.

Yes, it is wrong. A truly objective person could answer any argument of them and not pre-label or pre-judge an argument as good or bad.

Your argument also makes no sense. For one you say that an offense build will help you learn the right input but on the other hand you also clearly recommend people play defensive builds while learning the game because it will teach them better than defensive gear would. This is a contradiction. Either an offensive build helps teach them the right input to get the maximum output or playing a defensive build with Berserker gear will teach them better. Which is true?

In addition, everything you said you gain more of is speculation and you can’t back it up with facts or proof. If we both do AC path 1 we get the same rewards regardless of gear/build. We also get the same amount of experience. I can help friends and even random PUGs I run into regardless of their skill level just as much regardless of gear/build. How does even quantify fun? Is it really your argument that factually speaking one build is more fun another? All this very much seems like opinion territory and not rooted in facts. So what factually do you achieve more of?

Actually I clearly state that you should give actual numbers with Build Analysis, with Protection just being an example. Numbers are all about perspective. Telling me something is 5% better is incredibly overgeneralized and vague. It’s basic math. 5% of a huge number, thousands or millions, is vastly important than 5% of a very small number like 10 or 100. Telling people they have 10% more EHP is neat, but what does that actually mean for game play purposes? Does that mean they can take 10 extra hits? 3 extra hits? 1 extra hit? 0 extra hits? Again, I wanted more information: You either were incapable or unwilling to provide it because your bias took it as criticism.

Hey bro you’re the one trying to make it sound like the Elementalist has super cool unique defensive tools like “dodging” and “moving.” I tell you if those other classes ever get ahold of those…look out SPvP, that’s the end of the D/D Cele Ele! Again, don’t blame me for your words.

Again you can claim that’s false all you want but lets look at the facts. Each of your guides go on for ages on maximum offensive builds with maximum offensive gear. Each give minor space or talk about anything remotely defensive. When you direct people to a guide, that’s what they walk away with. Even in the Dulfy guide clearly states at the top it’s from a dungeon speed clearing guild. You can claim whatever you want now, but the truth of the matter is shown everywhere else.

I’m perfectly rational. The part you dislike is that I’m a rational individual who disagrees with you. I rationally ask you to factually prove what you’re saying and you can’t. You can speculate and provide, as you admit, only poor metrics to attempt to back up your claims. You claim to provide facts, you provide opinion. I tell you I miss the old Zelyhn who would mathematically drop numbers down from the sky proving or disproving everything. Haha maybe the real Zelyhn got banned, never came back and you’re just an imposter!

To objectively talk about efficiently you’ll have to answer what you’re being more efficient at. Now below you say it’s more efficient at getting more output and that helps you achieve being better at the content. Ok. So I have a few questions on this. How does getting more output help you be better at the content? Define better. I can overcome an encounter by countering all the different encounter mechanics with many different gear sets and many different builds. Since all these allow me to complete the encounter my individual skill has peaked for that encounter so what does this particular more efficient set of gear and build do better?

Since you’re going to invariably just deny, deflect and claim I don’t understand the words you choose to use I’m going to just say it and everything you’re talking about is Speed Running dungeons. The “more” you achieve? That’s doing dungeons faster. The more rewards you get? That’s clearing dungeons faster so you can do more dungeons in the same amount of time. Every single amount of advice you give seems to be to further the Speed Clearing Berserker dungeon culture that you claim you’re not a fan of. Every player reaches a point where they know the content well enough that there’s not much more skill to be gained, only new habits that as you put it “like a monkey who has been taught a few tricks and the only test is just to reproduce what you learned by heart.”

You can counter and claim you’re talking about skill but what skill are you teaching? Stack together, Ice Bow 5, blitz boss down and bypass as much of it’s mechanics as you can by killing it faster than it can do it’s abilities. Do you think stacking in a corner on Aetherblade Fractal’s boss teaches you more than having to have situational awareness and kite around the room? Do you really think anyone learns anything when a boss dies in 10 seconds or are they just monkies who came and read what to spec on the forums and found a group and now they’re repeating the same tricks over and over again?

PS: I love that our walls of text now each span across two replies

Kodiak.3281:

The context has always been I’ve never seen you recommend alternative gear builds for people.

And the answer has always been that I don’t.

Kodiak.3281:

Yes, it is wrong. A truly objective person could answer any argument of them and not pre-label or pre-judge an argument as good or bad.

Pre-judge? Like judge an argument before reading it? I don’t think I can do that, I am only human. On the other hand I have seen you judge my posts without fully reading them.

Kodiak.3281:

Your argument also makes no sense. For one you say that an offense build will help you learn the right input but on the other hand you also clearly recommend people play defensive builds while learning the game because it will teach them better than defensive gear would. This is a contradiction.

It is only a contradiction if you make sure to use the wrong vocabulary, like you keep doing all the time.
Offensive gear helps you learn the right input.
Defensive build (using offensive gear) helps to learn the game.

Kodiak.3281:

In addition, everything you said you gain more of is speculation and you can’t back it up with facts or proof.

First there is speed. I can probably duo AC1 twice in the time it takes you to do it once. Speed is a good indicator of output. But then there is also the freedom gained from increased output: I can deal with dungeons the way I want and still get them done in a reasonable time. I can play the build I love, DF, and help pugs complete content way smoother than they have ever done. I do not think that the concept of achieving more is as alien to you as you make it sound Kodiak, surely you have failed arah a few times in your life, surely a run took you way longer than you could stand, etc. When things go smooth then you understand the idea of achieving more.

Kodiak.3281:

Actually I clearly state that you should give actual numbers with Build Analysis, with Protection just being an example. Numbers are all about perspective.

Numbers are not about perspective. You did not understand the model, that’s fine. Your comments were out of place. But I am getting used to that.

Kodiak.3281:

Hey bro you’re the one trying to make it sound like the Elementalist has super cool unique defensive tools like “dodging” and “moving.” I tell you if those other classes ever get ahold of those…look out SPvP, that’s the end of the D/D Cele Ele! Again, don’t blame me for your words.

I only blame you for your lack of comprehension, for not reading what you should read, and for not being rational.
The ele has tools to avoid being hit. Those tools involve more than just moving and dodging. Those tools are explained in my guide. But I understand that the concept of avoiding hits is alien to someone who relied on passive defense his entire life. See, that is exactly what I want to preserve new players from.

Kodiak.3281:

You can claim whatever you want now, but the truth of the matter is shown everywhere else.

Really? I mean, do you even know how I play? Every single person who has ever played with me knows that I am not a fan of speedrunning. Yet I contribute extensively to expanding our knowledge on that matter.

Kodiak.3281:

I’m perfectly rational.

No.
When you say that you want to optimise damage then say that min-maxing is pointless then that is not rational
When you claim that I did not criticise your condimentalist build but you had not even read my post then that is not rational
When you claim that I only think in the perspective of speedrunning while my entire post history proves otherwise then that is not rational
When you use a quote to claim that my guild co-leader is incapable of discernment and therefore I am surely not capable of that either while the quote said nothing on the matter then that is not rational
When you use a quote to claim that I think “PvE is bad and not worth doing” while the quote says that I do not enjoy speedrunning but I like improvised gameplay instead then that is not rational
When you say that I did not urge people to use better condi builds that the one you proposed while the post I wrote clearly proves that I did then that is not rational
When you claim that I do not talk about the “merits” of defensive gear while I made a huge thread exactly on that topic then that is not rational
When you claim that I do not acknowledge that we all have somewhat different goals while the introduction of my guide says the opposite then that is not rational
When you say that it is possible to state than something is “best” without comparing it to others while “best” is a superlative term then that is not rational
When you say that I am “biased towards a particular spec” while my guide gives at least 8 builds to work with then that is not rational
When you say that I “bash” defensive builds like 06044 while I support this build in my new guide and it is a build that I used for a long time myself (as could be seen in the previous versions of my old guide) then that is not rational
And I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Kodiak.3281:

PS: I love that our walls of text now each span across two replies

Yeah it’s tons of fun ha-ha-ha.