Guild Wars 2

Dude go post on WvW if you want..haha (I show you Els) your vapor form is op. Just remember when they do nerf it be sure to cry why mist form will be broke and after nerf mist form wont let us thru door!!! Your sig say El but really wondering if you didn’t get free stomp on somebody? I’m sure will get more nerfs in other ways. I just don’t count what say is really that op. But that my opinion. BTW like other poster said warriors do this jump from wall knocks people back spam his great sword and still runs back in to keep with out loseing Heath. If any thing I say crank the Timer up so you can’t repeat this cheese tactic with vf. Becareful what you ask for thou…Anet proved how good they are making changes that create other bugs. I can see it now…nerf VF. Hey what?? I can’t even go thru doors while I’m alive can you see chat now …can a mess. Port me in please LOL

Have fun working on that nerf kk

Yep its pretty cheap and a tad overpowered in this respect. But the game is filled with things that synergize like this. Elementalists are pretty supreme in sieges, thats part of the appeal.

Kardiamond.6952:

maddoctor.2738:

Creslin.1758:

I have played all the classes and IMO Ele has the best downed state. No class can delay death longer than an Ele, and each moment of delay is another moment that you may be revive. And no class can move farther in downed than an Ele, and this means the Ele has a decent chance of getting themselves to a better spot where they can get help.

Thief, Mesmer, Guardian have way stronger downed states. They can delay death a LOT longer than an Elementalist, if they even die… by the time you do finish them their allies should be all over the place

But that’s of course off topic. Anyway I doubt they will make any change to an Elementalist skill, they have left so many skills in a bugged state since release and don’t see a “fix” in the near future so I doubt we’ll see any kind of change

Thief and Mesmer, it all depend of luck and if player are efficient at spoting the downed player. I used to have difficulties with Mesmer #2, but once you learn to wait for the red arrow, it goes a lot faster.

But I agree, those 2 have really strong downed state. Elem would be on par with them, if it wasn’t for your #3 that isn’t that good. But they are really close to them in their of effecness, especially in WvW.

But, Guardian? Really? How are they better then Elemental? When I see a downed guardian, I know I have to ether use stability, or push F right away so they have to use their #2 as soon as possible. They push me back once, then I just come back and finish them.

It has a 5 players limits, they can’t move with it or enter tower. I never get to see #3 of guardian since they are dead proir to that.

About resolving bug before balancing, they can’t do that, as they still have so many bugs. Every class have bugs and some have majors one that I’m still wondering how it went thru beta.

I tend to think of every aspect of the game here, you might compare downed skill in WvW alone. I can assure you that self-rezzing yourself in PVE (even in dungeons) while using Guardian skill3 isn’t weak, actually this and Vengeance are by far my favorite downed skill3 as they can quickly bring me back to action (ok Vengeance doesn’t work well when you fight solo Champions/Legendary) so unless this is a discussion only for downed skills in WvW I fail to see how Elementalists have the best downed skills in the game

Anyway that was only one example of better downed skills in other parts of the game but this isn’t a thread about downed skill comparisons so I’ll stop here.

Now, some more issues I was wondering about,
1) Can use other portals in PVE while in Vapor Form, I haven’t tested that yet (for example can you change zones while in Vapor Form, if you die close to the exit? – not Mist Form, Vapor Form) and do you end up dead on the other side, or downed?

2) What about Legacy of the Foefire sPVP map, should Vapor Form be allowed to use the portals there or not?

I’m asking because I don’t know if it’s possible (technicaly) to limit portal usage in WvW or not.

If a thief uses their teleport from in their downed state and target the door of a tower/keep, they can not get into said tower/keep. If they use their short bow teleport they will go in if they target the door in their upstate.

Solution: Give the same limit to the down state mist form. So elementalists can travel but not enter a keep or tower and the problem is solved.

I still think it’s fine the way it is.

It’s really a 50/50 shot to even make it back through the gate. Most zergs beating on the door are ready to immobilize or snare anything coming off the walls.

By down #3, you’re dead, there is no coming back.

odd thought that teleport worked for thief at the keep.

And it doesnt really make them invincible they can only do it once or twice before they get instant killed the second they are downed.

iCryptik.1496:

I still think it’s fine the way it is.

I agree, it’s powerful but not gamebreaking per se.

It’s really a 50/50 shot to even make it back through the gate. Most zergs beating on the door are ready to immobilize or snare anything coming off the walls.

By down #3, you’re dead, there is no coming back.

Provided you pace your suicide runs such that you don’t hit downed 5 times in 60s (which is really easy to do), it’s a 100% chance of making it back through the gate provided a guardian doesn’t put up line of warding or another “You shall not pass” skill.

@maddoctor

Well the issue we are talking about is only affective WvW, so I was taking in account WvW use only.

@iCryptik

You have to use it right. You keep your dodge for vapor form. As soon as you go down, you pop it and dodge 2 time right away. At most, during half a second people will be able to immobilize you, maximum. That’s a really low risk, nearly 0 chance.

Kardiamond.6952:

You have to use it right. You keep your dodge for vapor form. As soon as you go down, you pop it and dodge 2 time right away. At most, during half a second people will be able to immobilize you, maximum. That’s a really low risk, nearly 0 chance.

Do you even HAVE to dodge? I was under the impression that once you mist/vapor form, you immune to all new attacks basically. Can you be snared/chilled while in mist/vapor form? I don’t always “dodge” back to the gate and still never get hung up provided you popped vapor form the instant you’re downed (preventing them from snaring you BEFORE you pop it, which DOES persist through vapor/mist form).

Kardiamond.6952:

You have to use it right. You keep your dodge for vapor form. As soon as you go down, you pop it and dodge 2 time right away. At most, during half a second people will be able to immobilize you, maximum. That’s a really low risk, nearly 0 chance.

I wouldn’t say that low. There has been more times than I can count when several guardians are there casting their chains on me. Even if it’s only for a split second where they can nab me, I still get nabbed quit a bit even when dodging.

iCryptik.1496:

Kardiamond.6952:

You have to use it right. You keep your dodge for vapor form. As soon as you go down, you pop it and dodge 2 time right away. At most, during half a second people will be able to immobilize you, maximum. That’s a really low risk, nearly 0 chance.

I wouldn’t say that low. There has been more times than I can count when several guardians are there casting their chains on me. Even if it’s only for a split second where they can nab me, I still get nabbed quit a bit even when dodging.

I would really like to test this in a controlled situation. I have done vapor form many, many times, but I don’t think I have been CC’d a single time in it. Anecdotal, I know, but I would think that at least someone in the zerg that killed me would try to CC me.

@iCryptik

I find it surprising that you say that. I mean I’m playing a necro, so you, ele player, and my best friend who play one, are my main source of infos.

And with my necro, when I jump AoE, I’m rarely not able to come back to the gate in 3 seconde. And I don’t have any CC immunity.Don’t forget the effect of surprise, the chaos from your nuke, and not everyone have a CC/immobilize ready as soon as you pop Mist form.

If you dodge back to back, even if they chain you, you shouldn’t be hit. Maybe there was some delay in your execution? Would be cool if somoene could test it!

i love how i bring out a few more example of more effective skill as compared to ele’s vapor form downed for seige defense and it is completely ignored.

A. a good seige defense completely destroys any attempt at ram on gate, if u can ram a gate to death, that tower/keep isnt well defended. most of a time, an D/D ele is inconsequential to stopping the ram.

B. i am curious if anyone else has tried it, but its possible that certain aoe knockback work on vapor form ele also besides line of warding. have u tried shield of absorption and ring of warding? 2 more skill from 2 different wpn on guardian. if it works, a guardian should always have access to 1 of those 3 wpn so thats plenty of hard counter. 1 class for 1 class. i dont know all the class well enough so its possible other class have a niche skill that stops vapor form. people just dont bother to experiment enough simply because its not worth the effort.

C. as i said before, there are tactics to counter certain skill, its no my fault u think oh, i cant ram the gate because this guy wont die, this must be nerfed. use a cata, a ballista, a treb. hell even a golem, i would love to see a D/D ele trying to kill that golem with people ranging him. and if u arent ramming the gate, u shouldnt be in range for a D/D ele to come kill u, and then vapor form back. only the mindless zerg will be doing that and skill balancing should not be based on mindless minions with no tactic

and if u want to go on WvW forum to post this, feel free wonder how fast the thread will fill up with points on how many other cheap tactic there are while this is 1 niche skill for 1 occasion.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

i love how i bring out a few more example of more effective skill as compared to ele’s vapor form downed for seige defense and it is completely ignored.

A. a good seige defense completely destroys any attempt at ram on gate, if u can ram a gate to death, that tower/keep isnt well defended. most of a time, an D/D ele is inconsequential to stopping the ram.

B. i am curious if anyone else has tried it, but its possible that certain aoe knockback work on vapor form ele also besides line of warding. have u tried shield of absorption and ring of warding? 2 more skill from 2 different wpn on guardian. if it works, a guardian should always have access to 1 of those 3 wpn so thats plenty of hard counter. 1 class for 1 class. i dont know all the class well enough so its possible other class have a niche skill that stops vapor form. people just dont bother to experiment enough simply because its not worth the effort.

C. as i said before, there are tactics to counter certain skill, its no my fault u think oh, i cant ram the gate because this guy wont die, this must be nerfed. use a cata, a ballista, a treb. hell even a golem, i would love to see a D/D ele trying to kill that golem with people ranging him. and if u arent ramming the gate, u shouldnt be in range for a D/D ele to come kill u, and then vapor form back. only the mindless zerg will be doing that and skill balancing should not be based on mindless minions with no tactic

and if u want to go on WvW forum to post this, feel free wonder how fast the thread will fill up with points on how many other cheap tactic there are while this is 1 niche skill for 1 occasion.

Because all the example you give are defensive skill, the same skill that Elem also have. If you did an AoE jump from the wall and you got downed, it’s because you did a mistake.

Elem also have mist form prior to getting downed, and other Defensive cooldown. They can run for it, cast AoE, use defensive CD and come back.

Sure it works, like every other class pre mentionned.

But if you do a mistake, you can get downed.

Warrio, Mesmer and Thief are done as soon as it happen.

Elem? They just cast there #2 downedstate and run inside.

They have 2 layer of security, the second one being nearly impossible to stop.

That’s different, and that’s the issue. Not only do you have to down them, which can be hard, but you also have to immobilize them during the half second they arent dodging in vapor form.

This is still going?

Any ele, no matter what the build or gear, would do more harm staying on the walls using staff casting aoes. Well apart from 1-4 man ninja sieges, but those fall apart if there´s even one competent defender.

Is it annoying, yes.
Does it alter the outcomeof sieges in the slightest? No.

If it doesn´t affect the balance i don´t see reason to nerf.

stealth is NOT a defensive skill only. with rendering in effect it is the most deadly offensive skill while doubling as an equally effective defensive skill. its fun getting hit for half ur hp with 6 hits because the stealthed person didnt render after the 1st hit until the follow 6. even without rendering issue, backstab is a pain.

warrior who using enduring pain only as a defensive skill should be shot. its as if u allowed an ele to go mistform while having access to all their wpn skill, think that will be op?

mesmer portal is a tactical skill for both offensive and defensive which can instantaneously change the flow of combat. when combine with mass invisibility, its zerg destroyer

and as for being impossible 2 stop, i believe i pointed out a few skill that CAN stop it while vapor is ACTIVE by simply block the gate, gl trying to enter in vapor form. soft counter would be u scorpion wire the ele away from the gate after he exit and then downing him so he cant vapor form back into the gate. much harder to achieve, partially situational but still stops it. counter with tactic would be simply, not be in range. just because its hard to stop, doesnt mean its impossible. people simple arent smart enough to do such a thing usually or that ele simply isnt worth the effort in stopping.

people get in the mindset that if theres no easy counter available as a skill to every class, it needs a nerf.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

i love how i bring out a few more example of more effective skill as compared to ele’s vapor form downed for seige defense and it is completely ignored.

A. a good seige defense completely destroys any attempt at ram on gate, if u can ram a gate to death, that tower/keep isnt well defended. most of a time, an D/D ele is inconsequential to stopping the ram.

B. i am curious if anyone else has tried it, but its possible that certain aoe knockback work on vapor form ele also besides line of warding. have u tried shield of absorption and ring of warding? 2 more skill from 2 different wpn on guardian. if it works, a guardian should always have access to 1 of those 3 wpn so thats plenty of hard counter. 1 class for 1 class. i dont know all the class well enough so its possible other class have a niche skill that stops vapor form. people just dont bother to experiment enough simply because its not worth the effort.

C. as i said before, there are tactics to counter certain skill, its no my fault u think oh, i cant ram the gate because this guy wont die, this must be nerfed. use a cata, a ballista, a treb. hell even a golem, i would love to see a D/D ele trying to kill that golem with people ranging him. and if u arent ramming the gate, u shouldnt be in range for a D/D ele to come kill u, and then vapor form back. only the mindless zerg will be doing that and skill balancing should not be based on mindless minions with no tactic

and if u want to go on WvW forum to post this, feel free wonder how fast the thread will fill up with points on how many other cheap tactic there are while this is 1 niche skill for 1 occasion.

To A and C:

You seem to think that just because a skill is only a problem if it is completely game breaking, and otherwise, nothing should be changed. This just isn’t true.

We all know that downed 2 isn’t gamebreaking…but it is unfair. No player should ever be able to PvP with effectively zero risk of dying. Even players on a wall risk being pulled down by a mesmer or thief and them pulverized by the enemy zerg.

I will agree that if this issue is difficult to fix code-wise, then it should be put on the back-burner in favor of other fixes. But if it is simple to fix…then why not just do it? And regardless, I see no harm in bringing it up for discussion.

To B:

We’ve really gone back and forth with this whole “is there a counter?” issue, and I think it’s clear at this point that an effective counter to vaporing inside the keep would be extremely difficult to pull off.

Fact is that the Ele will lose any conditions on them when they are downed, and can vapor form immediately. And then once vapored, they can dodge twice, while on their journey to the door that will probably last about 1.5 seconds. Good luck rooting them…if it is even possible.

Line of warding is the only thing that seems like it could work, but for that you need to have a staff guardian that either has amazing reflexes, or is literally just waiting to ward the door the second the ele goes down.

Those really do not sound like reasonable counters to me.

lol, u didnt even bother looking at the other 2 skill i provided. ring of warding is a line of warding but in a ring and in a different wpn. shield is an aoe knockback that i am not sure effect vapor form but it might. if we want to go even more tome of wraith with judgement might also be workable, dunno on that.
ranger skill entangle might be viable also, not sure on that. other class that have aoe knockback that doesnt require a target or dmg also have a shot at working. there is no need for amazing reflexes. see ele come out, get rdy to drop the block. ele is down, drop the block. vapor form doesnt last THAT long. as for the knockback and root, well yea those require a little more skill. but thats the perk of being an ele, u for once get to make other classes work a little more. wish there a line of warding for stealth… oh wait.. theres nothing for stealth.

the obvious fact that people dont know these counters mean vapor forming into gate is not even an issue. if it was people would be digging left and right for counters so they can do something about it whiling waiting for anet to fix

and sure, ill take any advantage i can get when faced with game breaking skill and ability on the other side. when those are more down to level we can start taking the tiny little advantage from other classes which uses it to semi even the playing field.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

lol, u didnt even bother looking at the other 2 skill i provided. ring of warding is a line of warding but in a ring and in a different wpn. shield is an aoe knockback that i am not sure effect vapor form but it might. if we want to go even more tome of wraith with judgement might also be workable, dunno on that.
ranger skill entangle might be viable also, not sure on that. other class that have aoe knockback that doesnt require a target or dmg also have a shot at working. there is no need for amazing reflexes. see ele come out, get rdy to drop the block. ele is down, drop the block. vapor form doesnt last THAT long. as for the knockback and root, well yea those require a little more skill. but thats the perk of being an ele, u for once get to make other classes work a little more. wish there a line of warding for stealth… oh wait.. theres nothing for stealth.

the obvious fact that people dont know these counters mean vapor forming into gate is not even an issue. if it was people would be digging left and right for counters so they can do something about it whiling waiting for anet to fix

and sure, ill take any advantage i can get when faced with game breaking skill and ability on the other side. when those are more down to level we can start taking the tiny little advantage from other classes which uses it to semi even the playing field.

Counter to stealth = Guess where he is and AoE. You would be surprised how many thieves I kill like that.

The knock back can be avoided with dodge for sure, so I think that will be as effective as root. Ring of warding…Maybe? I dunno, but once again it’s Guardian only. I don’t think a “viable counter” is something that only one class can do…and is pretty hard to pull off even then.

Tell you the truth, I really don’t know if any of these would work. I have NEVER been CC’d in vapor form. I can’t imagine that no one has tried to do it to me. I actually think you are immune to it while you are in the form, but not before. I would like to see this tested.

And I take advantage of the skill too. Most people don’t realize here that I am an Ele PLAYER, not someone complaining about Ele’s. I just find it cheap that I can escape into a keep with near 100% certainty after being downed outside. I even go so far as to tell my group to just ignore any Elementalist that comes out of a keep to fight if we aren’t sieging it. There is no point in engaging, he will just zip right back in if downed.

EDIT: Just read that wards can be bypassed by jumping:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ring_of_Warding

Unless this is wrong, it completely renders them ineffective against the vapor form to keep. They also will knock you down when you hit them…and I don’t even know if vapor form can technically be knocked down, so they may not even work at all.

Thing is that I’ve vapor formed into keep plenty of times, and I have NEVER been stopped. I just think it’s odd that if a counter exists to it, it has never been used on me.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

lol, u didnt even bother looking at the other 2 skill i provided. ring of warding is a line of warding but in a ring and in a different wpn. shield is an aoe knockback that i am not sure effect vapor form but it might. if we want to go even more tome of wraith with judgement might also be workable, dunno on that.
ranger skill entangle might be viable also, not sure on that. other class that have aoe knockback that doesnt require a target or dmg also have a shot at working. there is no need for amazing reflexes. see ele come out, get rdy to drop the block. ele is down, drop the block. vapor form doesnt last THAT long. as for the knockback and root, well yea those require a little more skill. but thats the perk of being an ele, u for once get to make other classes work a little more. wish there a line of warding for stealth… oh wait.. theres nothing for stealth.

the obvious fact that people dont know these counters mean vapor forming into gate is not even an issue. if it was people would be digging left and right for counters so they can do something about it whiling waiting for anet to fix

and sure, ill take any advantage i can get when faced with game breaking skill and ability on the other side. when those are more down to level we can start taking the tiny little advantage from other classes which uses it to semi even the playing field.

Yuo didn’t understand what I mean by defensive cooldown.

And by the way, If a thief jump in front of the game, he is dead for sure. What’s your issue with them? Yeah in the open they are pretty hard to kill, but in front of the gate, alone, in a bunch of player? When you know he will run to the gate?

Just unload in that direction, he will be dead.

You can’t do that to Vapor form, you also can’t knockback if he is dodging. That only leave us 2 skill, one class that counter. And you have around 1 sec to use it, and for one of them you have to be in position inbetween to do it.

You say it’s not game breaking? Then removing it isn’t game breaking ether.

lol, aoeing where thief is going is finding a needle in a hay stack. its the same as me on staff soloing thief as a glass cannon ele. i expect semi skillful play, juking people out when they cant see u while u keeping 360 degree movement while dodge is cakewalk. thats the same thing as people saying just immobalize ele before he vapor. usually occurs when target makes a mistake and thats not a counter.

personally i always laughed at ele going out the gate on a major seige bunker d/d ele dont have the burst potential as most other classes, glass cannon d/d ele gets downed within a second in a crowd of 20+.
thieves can stealth out BS/HS someone while using rendering stealth issue then stealth back or just completely out of range. or they can start daggerstorm while in stealth and stay a few second in there and just daggerstorm back in or cancel, keep stability and then stealth. (glass cannon, sure u dont know when i walked out, u barely even see me before i am gone. cooldown? ill just use that other stealth skill i got)
warriors, enduring pain slaughter a few walk back in. and just incase they can trait to have a 2nd enduring pain for 25% hp! so they can outlast any blocking of gate. (glass cannon, sure i dont take dmg anyways)
mesmer portal bombing is self explanatory, dont even need the gate portal urself back.(now u see me.. now u dont, enjoy the corpse my squad left behind, just incase ill throw mass invisibility on so i wont even need to walk back and since ur all dead)

ur poking at a skill that is used in tandem with a method that other class can achieve with much better result, some with higher risk, some with lower risk, but all better end result in the overall seige. if u can pull the slaughter off with glass cannon d/d ele in any major seige then there might actually be an issue with a class have double layer survival at a gate. just because u cant kill the class doesnt mean that class actually DID anything. i had a d/d ele do this trick at a gate, it was annoying, but no one died 1 or 2 got downed but resed before he can come back out, ram barely ever get interrupted. in the end he made a mistake pulled 2 far and died.
not all classes are equal, certainly not all classes are equal at every location, every situation.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

lol, aoeing where thief is going is finding a needle in a hay stack. its the same as me on staff soloing thief as a glass cannon ele. i expect semi skillful play, juking people out when they cant see u while u keeping 360 degree movement while dodge is cakewalk. thats the same thing as people saying just immobalize ele before he vapor. usually occurs when target makes a mistake and thats not a counter.

personally i always laughed at ele going out the gate on a major seige bunker d/d ele dont have the burst potential as most other classes, glass cannon d/d ele gets downed within a second in a crowd of 20+.
thieves can stealth out BS/HS someone while using rendering stealth issue then stealth back or just completely out of range. or they can start daggerstorm while in stealth and stay a few second in there and just daggerstorm back in or cancel, keep stability and stealth. (glass cannon, sure u barely get hit anyways)
warriors, enduring pain slaughter a few walk back in. and just incase they can trait to have a 2nd enduring pain for 25% hp! so they can outlast any blocking of gate. (glass cannon, sure i dont take dmg anyways)
mesmer portal bombing is self explanatory, dont even need the gate portal urself back.(now u see me.. now u dont, enjoy the corpse i left behind)

ur poking at a skill that is used in tandem with a method that other class can achieve with much better result, some with higher risk, some with lower risk, but all better end result in the overall seige. if u can pull the slaughter off with glass cannon d/d ele in any major seige then there might actually be an issue with a class have double layer survival at a gate. not all classes are equal, certainlly not all classes are equal at every location, every situation.

Man, you are relentless about this lol.

The problem has nothing to do with escape skills that Ele and other classes can use before they are downed. So stop trying to redirect it to that. It is completely irrelevant.

The problem is that Ele CANNOT BE KILLED when close to an owned structure. There is no “counter” that you can do. You can’t blame this on an “L2P issue” on behalf of the attackers. They CANNOT BE KILLED. There should be no situation, other than being spawn camped, where a player in PvP has no risk. That’s just stupid.

Even players up on walls are at risk. They can get pulled down and killed, or CC’d up on the wall and AoE’d down. Does it break WvW? No, of course not. But it creates an unfair situation where one class literally has a get out of death free card.

Given how much you are complaining about an actually COUNTERABLE ability like stealth, I can only imagine how much you would complain if they made it so the thief’s downed 2 teleport could go through portals, which would make then immune to death near a keep lol.

Honestly, I sort of wonder what everyone has a problem with. Elementalists having a nice escape in ONE specific situation in one specific game mode? A trick which reeks of desperation and has questionable utility?

Would you take that over the Mesmer’s downed mode abilities? I wouldn’t.

innocent ouarior.1954:

The “I play Elem” as introduction to call for a nerf is cute. I doubt anyone believes you.

Besides, it doesnt actually help you to save the keep from being taken. It just allows “some sort” of hit and run fight, I’m not sure how more frustrating than self rezing rangers or low cooldown theives teleport it is.

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

It sounds like “ima fkg ninja thief runnin fkg ninja glass canon stealth build I can fkg kill everyone before they can see me with culling issues AHA! Why cant I get 100% fkg killin blow on elems near a keep! TIS 0P FKG NERF FFFS²!!!!”

Whether you believe it or not he Mains an Ele, and is probably one of the most skilled Ele’s in the game. From experience fighting against him, and now with him since I’m now on the same server.

Well they can nerf this skill if they boost tornado. Give us dagger tornado.

this post got bugged.. :./

dank.3680:

innocent ouarior.1954:

The “I play Elem” as introduction to call for a nerf is cute. I doubt anyone believes you.

Besides, it doesnt actually help you to save the keep from being taken. It just allows “some sort” of hit and run fight, I’m not sure how more frustrating than self rezing rangers or low cooldown theives teleport it is.

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

It sounds like “ima fkg ninja thief runnin fkg ninja glass canon stealth build I can fkg kill everyone before they can see me with culling issues AHA! Why cant I get 100% fkg killin blow on elems near a keep! TIS 0P FKG NERF FFFS²!!!!”

Whether you believe it or not he Mains an Ele, and is probably one of the most skilled Ele’s in the game. From experience fighting against him, and now with him since I’m now on the same server.

Thanks for the support Dank! And btw, if anyone is wondering, Dank is a freaking AMAZING Mesmer and Ele. The first time I fought him (on his Mesmer) it was an epic battle that lasted like 5-10 minutes lol.

And yes, as I have said before, I abuse the CRAP out of this on my main Ele, but I actually realize that it is cheap and gimmicky.

Whenever I run with my small group in WvW, we have a lot of CC and burst, and can very often kill a player that is hanging near their keep before they get in. But if I ever see an Ele doing it, I just tell everyone to ignore them because it’s pointless. No matter how fast we burst that Ele down, he will always get away.

All I’m saying is make it so downed 2 can’t go through the portal…that’s it! It’s not a big deal. And as I said before, I would even give it lower priority than other fixes. It’s just an irritating way that Ele’s (including myself) can escape a death that they have already earned.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

Creslin.1758:

So your counters are…

1 and 2 – walk away from your ram and let the ele kill it while you keep hoping that he comes after you.

3 – hope the ele is extremely bad.

4 – randomly have a staff guardian with you that pops line of warding at the exact right moment.

Yeah…this is why the skill needs to be fixed lol.

Also guys, I want to point out. I am an elementalist. This is not a QQ post. This is just me realizing that one of MY abilities is overpowered.

please provide me a counter to enduring pain warrior coming out murdering someone, walking back, full hp
whats the counter for a thief walking through gate on stealth after walking out of said gate BS/HS someone down?
whats a counter for a mesmer portaling the entire defense squad on u with mass invisibility casted?

Why are we arguing a downed state gimick, against utilities from classes while they are still up. Ele has plenty of ways to run in and out picking people off while alive too. The only difference is we dont have to care if we happen to fail.

lol, there is no counter to stealth. theres only ways to negate the resulting effect of stealth, but theres nothing that counters stealth. theres no stealth removing skill, theres no circular prison trapping skill. when u can make a target visible and targetable again without the person wanting it. thats a counter.

we are talking about a counter to an end result of using vapor form in 1 location based situation in WvW. and because it is location based there is actually a counter or method by simply denying the target of said location(gate portal) and once said target is denied, theres no alternative. there happen to be a skill to provide such a counter!

issue: ele vapor form into gate after downed
solution: line/ring of warding the gate
counter: ele prays the enemy casted 2 early and he can wait out duration

personally i could care less if the thief can teleport into the gate. while i would love them to be dead, its more annoyance then anything else. different class, different ability, different advantage at different locations. its not game breaking, its not even unbalancing the fight in WvW. its simple “unfair” because only ele can do it. thats not unfair, thats ele have their own little cheap tricks that only they can do consider it as
what makes an ele “unique”. its like people complaining about some class able to pull people off walls, why cant i do it? because its part of being their class. why only ele can walk into gate after downed? its part of their class

P.S. arguing is fun, 8D it keeps ur mind thinking of reasons and possibly obscure things that u never would have bothered. its rare to find a good argument that has real reasons behind them

@ harrison

lol.. I happen to abuse this mechanic myself on my ele.

lol.. I happen to abuse this mechanic myself on my ele...I’ve sat there and done this repeatedly more then 10 times in a row. It’s not hard to keep an eye on the downed penatly indicator and wait it out a bit before going back out. It actually does not take long to go away.
.. Downed DOES clear conditions.
..You can’t be touched while in the downed state mist form, by anything. I’ve went right through warding walls and everything.
..Not if your alone in a tower delaying until help can arrive. Especially when your build is for D/D.

lol.. I happen to abuse this mechanic myself on my ele...I’ve sat there and done this repeatedly more then 10 times in a row. It’s not hard to keep an eye on the downed penatly indicator and wait it out a bit before going back out. It actually does not take long to go away.
.. Downed DOES clear conditions.
..You can’t be touched while in the downed state mist form, by anything. I’ve went right through warding walls and everything.
..Not if your alone in a tower delaying until help can arrive. Especially when your build is for D/D.To those saying it’s not effective, just lol. I’ve delayed big zergs by myself doing this plenty of times.. Pushed them back away from their rams, scattered them, downed many. And yes I can pull off full kills, especially when I don’t have to worry that if I’m downed I can just revive for sure inside the tower or keep.

lol.. I happen to abuse this mechanic myself on my ele...I’ve sat there and done this repeatedly more then 10 times in a row. It’s not hard to keep an eye on the downed penatly indicator and wait it out a bit before going back out. It actually does not take long to go away.
.. Downed DOES clear conditions.
..You can’t be touched while in the downed state mist form, by anything. I’ve went right through warding walls and everything.
..Not if your alone in a tower delaying until help can arrive. Especially when your build is for D/D.To those saying it’s not effective, just lol. I’ve delayed big zergs by myself doing this plenty of times.. Pushed them back away from their rams, scattered them, downed many. And yes I can pull off full kills, especially when I don’t have to worry that if I’m downed I can just revive for sure inside the tower or keep.I find it funny my thief teleport, or my mesmer blink while downed, cannot go through the gate, yet people think it’s ok that ele’s can.

lol.. I happen to abuse this mechanic myself on my ele...I’ve sat there and done this repeatedly more then 10 times in a row. It’s not hard to keep an eye on the downed penatly indicator and wait it out a bit before going back out. It actually does not take long to go away.
.. Downed DOES clear conditions.
..You can’t be touched while in the downed state mist form, by anything. I’ve went right through warding walls and everything.
..Not if your alone in a tower delaying until help can arrive. Especially when your build is for D/D.To those saying it’s not effective, just lol. I’ve delayed big zergs by myself doing this plenty of times.. Pushed them back away from their rams, scattered them, downed many. And yes I can pull off full kills, especially when I don’t have to worry that if I’m downed I can just revive for sure inside the tower or keep.I find it funny my thief teleport, or my mesmer blink while downed, cannot go through the gate, yet people think it’s ok that ele’s can.It’s especially more effective when I keep running back in the tower as much as I can manage to get out of combat and regen after a kill.. Always having the failsafe if they happen to immobile me enough times to get me downed.

god wtf… sorry about the crazy repeating formatting for that post i cant fix it..

SuiRyuJin.4615:

lol, there is no counter to stealth. theres only ways to negate the resulting effect of stealth, but theres nothing that counters stealth. theres no stealth removing skill, theres no circular prison trapping skill. when u can make a target visible and targetable again without the person wanting it. thats a counter.

we are talking about a counter to an end result of using vapor form in 1 location based situation in WvW. and because it is location based there is actually a counter or method by simply denying the target of said location(gate portal) and once said target is denied, theres no alternative. there happen to be a skill to provide such a counter!

issue: ele vapor form into gate after downed
solution: line/ring of warding the gate
counter: ele prays the enemy casted 2 early and he can wait out duration

personally i could care less if the thief can teleport into the gate. while i would love them to be dead, its more annoyance then anything else. different class, different ability, different advantage at different locations. its not game breaking, its not even unbalancing the fight in WvW. its simple “unfair” because only ele can do it. thats not unfair, thats ele have their own little cheap tricks that only they can do consider it as
what makes an ele “unique”. its like people complaining about some class able to pull people off walls, why cant i do it? because its part of being their class. why only ele can walk into gate after downed? its part of their class

P.S. arguing is fun, 8D it keeps ur mind thinking of reasons and possibly obscure things that u never would have bothered.

First, I will admit, that like you I actually learned a bunch of obscure things in this argument as well. Such as the fact that you can apparently jump over wards.

Second, if you think that being unkillable near a tower is a “differentiating feature” of the Elementalist class, then I think you are going to be very disappointed when ANet gets around to nerfing this lol.

Any decent player should realize what is gimmicky and shouldn’t be in the game. Unkillableness qualifies.

oh cool, line of warding doesnt work. guess there is no hard counter. life sucks 8D ele have skill that not counterable.

and truely any zerg that gets stalled by 1 d/d ele should be shot. all it takes is 1 guardian providing support on ram to stop most of the crap a d/d ele can do before said ele gets screwed over by rest of zerg and got to run. i would blame that more on fail zerg vs skill player then unfair skill.

there is enough unkillable that is situational in this game that i am feeling its more normal then not. i like gimmicks, maybe they can take this gimmick away when they fix certain things to make up abit for it.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

oh cool, line of warding doesnt work. guess there is no hard counter. life sucks 8D ele have skill that not counterable.

and truely any zerg that gets stalled by 1 d/d ele should be shot. all it takes is 1 guardian providing support on ram to stop most of the crap a d/d ele can do before said ele gets screwed over and got to run. i would blame that more on fail zerg vs skill player then unfair skill.

You are like a pitbull my friend.

Kardiamond.6952:

@maddoctor

Well the issue we are talking about is only affective WvW, so I was taking in account WvW use only.

Negative. this can be done in the foefire spvp map as well. Well effective is another story but anyway thats where i experienced it.

I know my vapor form has been rooted once or twice. its pretty rare. specifically by that ranger binding roots thing.

Crunchy Gremlin.5798:

Kardiamond.6952:

@maddoctor

Well the issue we are talking about is only affective WvW, so I was taking in account WvW use only.

Negative. this can be done in the foefire spvp map as well. Thats where i experienced it.

I know my vapor form has been rooted once or twice. its pretty rare. specifically by that ranger binding roots thing.

I’m not surprised about that. Entangle is handled differently than other root skills. It isn’t a condition, it is literally a physical entity that holds you, and it’s also an elite skill. So it doesn’t surprise me that it would root you in vapor form.

Creslin.1758:

Crunchy Gremlin.5798:

Kardiamond.6952:

@maddoctor

Well the issue we are talking about is only affective WvW, so I was taking in account WvW use only.

Negative. this can be done in the foefire spvp map as well. Thats where i experienced it.

I know my vapor form has been rooted once or twice. its pretty rare. specifically by that ranger binding roots thing.

I’m not surprised about that. Entangle is handled differently than other root skills. It isn’t a condition, it is literally a physical entity that holds you, and it’s also an elite skill. So it doesn’t surprise me that it would root you in vapor form.

It actually is a condition. It applies immobility (1s) over and over. I use condition removal to get out of them all the time.

dank.3680:

Creslin.1758:

Crunchy Gremlin.5798:

Kardiamond.6952:

@maddoctor

Well the issue we are talking about is only affective WvW, so I was taking in account WvW use only.

Negative. this can be done in the foefire spvp map as well. Thats where i experienced it.

I know my vapor form has been rooted once or twice. its pretty rare. specifically by that ranger binding roots thing.

I’m not surprised about that. Entangle is handled differently than other root skills. It isn’t a condition, it is literally a physical entity that holds you, and it’s also an elite skill. So it doesn’t surprise me that it would root you in vapor form.

It actually is a condition. It applies immobility (1s) over and over. I use condition removal to get out of them all the time.

Really? I will have to try that, maybe it just seemed different to be because of the repeated applications. Most of the time I use burning speed and that kills it.

People with Invulnerability should not be able to interact with objects.

Problem Solved.

Creslin.1758:

Solori.6025:

Creslin.1758:

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

……….No…
no…

no it wasnt nerfed..
do you pvp at all or….

Assassin’s signet used to give +50% damage to your next attack. Now it gives +15% to your next 5. The old way could produce a ridiculously large amount of damage on the BS hit.

Go play a thief.

The Backstab combo with the signet ( prenerf) was what allowed them to pull of BS in the higher numbers around 9-13k.

Since its nerf.
Theifs still use the same tactic and rotation for the build, but instead add a heartseeker or two to finish you.
The combo can still produce a 2-3 second kill..

so some spvp for a few days..

I love this skill, would be a shame if it got changed.

Meh, if it gets nerfed it gets nerfed with a reason.

Now when focus gets nerfed…
we will have a problem =_=

Eh. Elementalists are going to defend it of course but the skill is a bit silly in WvW. I get irritated seeing a low health ele and him just standing still because he knows he can get away every time. It gives too much protection. Thieves can’t teleport through a door, nor can mesmers. Ele are already unkillable on the sides of walls, they really should not be outside of a fort.

And don’t pretend you have the worst downed state. Mobility is the absolute best thing to have when downed in WvW.

I would like to again throw out the question:
Even if it is “too strong in castle defence”, why does that warrant a nerf?

I would argue Mass Invisibility is seriously underpowered in boss fights, does that warrant a buff to also make it give 10 stacks of Might on top of AE stealth?

Carighan.6758:

I would like to again throw out the question:
Even if it is “too strong in castle defence”, why does that warrant a nerf?

I would argue Mass Invisibility is seriously underpowered in boss fights, does that warrant a buff to also make it give 10 stacks of Might on top of AE stealth?

Well..You could argue every powerful skill in the game vs any other skill thats underpowered or too strong..
Most things that are too strong in one area are severly lacking in others.

Its funny, in Wv3 mist form may be too strong in the one scenerio of defending.
in tpvp and spvp, your just prolonging the inevitable, like every other class can.

Creslin.1758:

Cirax.9231:

Calling it a “cheap” tactic is subjective though. I can say other classes have cheap tactics to save themselves from dying near a keep. Just because ele can do it when downed doesn’t necessarily give them a significant advantage.

I’m pretty sure that everyone here would think that the ability to go outside and AoE the crap out keep attackers, with very near zero risk of dying would be cheap if it was a thief ability lol.

I’m actually tempted to post this on the WvW forum just to see the difference in responses I get. People are touchy about their class.

someone already did …the reply was

MEH….

as you should know that tactic will work only against a really small numbers of attackers…(4-5)

Currently is just better to AoE BEHIND the door with the same class.
Or just from a wall with a staff.

The same tatic is slightly better in oper battles, to break a stall, but nothing particularly strong….
Just a tool to stop 2 zergs spamming AoE out of range >.> waiting other do do the first move…
With vapor you can do the first move at least….fair counter to staff ele/necro in www

P.S: also if you wanna laugh i just read in Thief forum that ele is the most OP class in the game XD…..

@LordByron

I told you the whine post were coming

And why people are talking about 1 Ele wouldn’t do much doing this again a zerg. Yeah well, most people can’t do much alone vs a zerg? Why don’t you scale it. 5 Ele jump down and drop Aoe in the zerg. That will do some crazy damage.

Some combo can hit for 11k + bleeds. Factor it x5.

Nothing OP, but every effective.

Now add a no risk factor, and It may be OP.

@Solori

in sPvp you are prolonging the inevitable a lot longer then most other class. Vapor form is no lackluster downedstate.

I just have some issue with a 0 risk advantage.

You want to nerf Ele because they are unkillable near a tower? Come on…

FYI, I’m talking as a (average) D/D Elem. And sorry for my English, I’m trying my best to write properly.

First, the assailants must be near the gate otherwise it’s difficult to reach the door in Vapor Form. Many times, I’m rooted/immobilized before I can enter in the tower, and I die before I do significant damage because I’ve take too much damage extremely fast… Yeah, I’m talking when the tower is attacked by a tons of players.

But yes, against a small group, you can gain some times and so does every ranged dps on the rampart. And then, how can you kill someone on a rampart when he can backup in his tower? How can you destroy a catapult which is inside the tower?

Honestly, the Vapor Form doesn’t have any impact on a siege. And certainly not enough to have a dedicated topic…

ignore them they are baseless and completely lacks data….

Note they always ignores on how other classes can do exactly the same but better…..

Any eng can stop that tactic…
Any mesmer can stop that tactic
Any necro can stop that tactic

Don t know other classes well enough.

NERF engineers, necro, mesmers

LordByron.8369:

ignore them they are baseless and completely lacks data….

Note they always ignores on how other classes can do exactly the same but better…..

Any eng can stop that tactic…
Any mesmer can stop that tactic
Any necro can stop that tactic

Don t know other classes well enough.

NERF engineers, necro, mesmers

No one can stop this tactic. We have gone over this in this thread over and over. You lose all conditions on downed, vapor form immediately, and then can’t be CC’d. I just confirmed this yesterday…tried to root an Ele in mist form and it said “Invulnerable.”

There is no other class that is immune to dying outside of towers. None.

It is a stupid, cheap tactic, and any good Ele should realize that, abuse the heck out of it while it’s in, but know that a nerf should be coming at some point.