Guild Wars 2

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I haven’t done much pvp since HoT came out; I tend to do the new PVE content to death before getting back to pvp. So I’m just now really getting into pvp again.

I Engineer is one of four classes I play a lot, but since I’ve been out of pvp for awhile, I’m not sure how they really stand, but: I just started some pvp seriously as of the last two days, and a guild mate of mine, a revenant, and an engineer dueled themselves to a standstill an entire Stronghold match. Neither could put the other down. The rev had lots of strong healing, and the engineer kept using things like Elixir S.

So basically they spent 15 minutes dueling while the rest of us played. It did sound like a somewhat interesting fight lol.

Scrapper wasnt nerfed enough last balance patch. In terms of overall health of the game the current meta build needs to be toned down significantly in terms of either damage or survivability.

I understand that there are a lot of Homers of this forum but please realize that for the good of the game is a,real thing. A marauder amulet wearing class with scrapper survivability is bad for that btw.

Also remember this isn’t about the changes the other elites need. We all know and will voice them in the proper areas. This is about the brokenness of scrapper.

Azukas.1426:

Scrapper wasnt nerfed enough last balance patch. In terms of overall health of the game the current meta build needs to be toned down significantly in terms of either damage or survivability.

I understand that there are a lot of Homers of this forum but please realize that for the good of the game is a,real thing. A marauder amulet wearing class with scrapper survivability is bad for that btw.

Also remember this isn’t about the changes the other elites need. We all know and will voice them in the proper areas. This is about the brokenness of scrapper.

I’m quoting this for truth.

Hammer is over-performing. The damage from all skills needs to go down. The cool-downs need to go up. Rocket Charge should at best have one Leap Finisher. The range on Thunderclap needs to go down. 600 units at most. A melee weapon should never have an attack that competes with ranged weapons.

Sneak Gyro needs a cast time. 3/4 second seems reasonable. I also believe the cool-down needs to go up. Go with 75 seconds for now. Though I believe even that is still too low. Targetable or not, the Sneak Gyro should only allow you to reset the fight once. Right now, even with 40 seconds cool-down, it’s an almost always available escape tool.

The healing on Rapid Regeneration needs to go down. For an ability that requires little to no player input it heals way too much. Adaptive Armour could use a reduction too. -20% condition damage and +60 extra Toughness on a completely passive ability is too much. The trait should probably only provide one of the benefits.

To compensate for base damage going down and base cool-downs going up, there need to be traits that reduce weapon ability cool-downs and increase Hammer damage. Those traits need to compete with the tanking options (Rapid Regeneration and Adaptive Armour namely). The player should have to choose between sustain or damage.

Perfectly Weighted needs changing too. Random dodging should not be rewarded.

On a more general note, I’m still shocked by the lazy design of the trait line. In June 2015 Backpack Generator gets nerfed so hard it is not worth taking (I still wonder why it is in the game at all in it’s current iteration?). 3 months later we get Rapid Regeneration that has the very same effect but is even stronger. Instead of reducing the uninteresting mechanics (stealth, evades, passive healing, passive stability, passive damage reduction, etc.) all of it got added to the Scrapper. It’s a design decision I cannot understand.

On an even more general note I believe the June patch should be partially undone. Streamlining the trait system was a very good idea. Merging the traits and making several traits baseline wasn’t. I wish we would get a major trait overhaul across all classes. Break up the traits. Give them 1 benefit at most. Let the player make a significant and build defining choice.

I really hate to see the Engineer (and the game in general) in it’s current state. The combat, for me the major (if not the only) selling factor of Guild Wars 2 is not fun anymore.

Ah well. Flame away.

Azukas.1426:

Scrapper wasnt nerfed enough last balance patch. In terms of overall health of the game the current meta build needs to be toned down significantly in terms of either damage or survivability.

I understand that there are a lot of Homers of this forum but please realize that for the good of the game is a,real thing. A marauder amulet wearing class with scrapper survivability is bad for that btw.

Also remember this isn’t about the changes the other elites need. We all know and will voice them in the proper areas. This is about the brokenness of scrapper.

I still don’t see where is the “brokenness”.
It uses offensive stats, of course…but it also adds two trait lines that are mostly about sustain and defense and another that’s all about being a melee fighter (and provides self-sustain and other means to do so).
The end result is perfectly logical.
The “issue”, if we want to call it like that, is just that it is extremely suited to a mode that’s based over fighting inside a small circle while usually being alone.
And mostly useless in any other mode, i should add. Almost all the traits are about empowering the user itself, or giving support to a single ally in a case (bunker down med kits). A trait like HGH is terrible in group settings, as other classes can provide that might to the group far better. And the group support provided by such a build is very limited.

It doesn’t need to be “toned down”. It uses mainly offensive stats, two defensive line that are selfish for the most part, and it adds a line that’s all about being a frontline fighter and having the tools to do so. It is extremely specialized, and it has to do that well. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise.
What can be reasonabily done is to change its scope. If the scrapper line offers too much self-sustain, change it into group sustain (so that it’s weaker in 1vsX situations, and better in XvX situations). Alter the design, instead of gutting the end result.

Also, if we were to talk about “the good of the game”, the first thing that should be done would be about splitting balance instead of making things useless in any other mode as they usually do by balancing over PvP. Like they did with turrets – yet another thing designed to do a specific thing – controlling and defending an area – and that was gutted down just because it did exactly what it was designed to do.

@ elmo

it isnt hammers damage, its the utility. the damage is fine. its melee. it should be doing tons of damage. it always has a marauder amulet behind it. if the damage was pathetic with marauder amulet, then it would need to be buffed.

take away 1 or 2 of the special defensive effects and suddenly a glass scrapper wont be able to randomly sidestep burst any more just by spamming skills. take away some sustain and a glass scrapper wont be able to outheal what little damage it is taking.

but there really is no reason a marauder amulet build shouldnt be doing damage.

insanemaniac.2456:

@ elmo

it isnt hammers damage, its the utility. the damage is fine. its melee. it should be doing tons of damage. it always has a marauder amulet behind it. if the damage was pathetic with marauder amulet, then it would need to be buffed.

take away 1 or 2 of the special defensive effects and suddenly a glass scrapper wont be able to randomly sidestep burst any more just by spamming skills. take away some sustain and a glass scrapper wont be able to outheal what little damage it is taking.

but there really is no reason a marauder amulet build shouldnt be doing damage.

Very good point. Thanks for the input.

I admit I’m very biased. I do not enjoy Scrapper at all. Hence my (too) negative view on this.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

Scrapper wasnt nerfed enough last balance patch. In terms of overall health of the game the current meta build needs to be toned down significantly in terms of either damage or survivability.

I understand that there are a lot of Homers of this forum but please realize that for the good of the game is a,real thing. A marauder amulet wearing class with scrapper survivability is bad for that btw.

Also remember this isn’t about the changes the other elites need. We all know and will voice them in the proper areas. This is about the brokenness of scrapper.

I still don’t see where is the “brokenness”.
It uses offensive stats, of course…but it also adds two trait lines that are mostly about sustain and defense and another that’s all about being a melee fighter (and provides self-sustain and other means to do so).
The end result is perfectly logical.
The “issue”, if we want to call it like that, is just that it is extremely suited to a mode that’s based over fighting inside a small circle while usually being alone.
And mostly useless in any other mode, i should add. Almost all the traits are about empowering the user itself, or giving support to a single ally in a case (bunker down med kits). A trait like HGH is terrible in group settings, as other classes can provide that might to the group far better. And the group support provided by such a build is very limited.

It doesn’t need to be “toned down”. It uses mainly offensive stats, two defensive line that are selfish for the most part, and it adds a line that’s all about being a frontline fighter and having the tools to do so. It is extremely specialized, and it has to do that well. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise.
What can be reasonabily done is to change its scope. If the scrapper line offers too much self-sustain, change it into group sustain (so that it’s weaker in 1vsX situations, and better in XvX situations). Alter the design, instead of gutting the end result.

Also, if we were to talk about “the good of the game”, the first thing that should be done would be about splitting balance instead of making things useless in any other mode as they usually do by balancing over PvP. Like they did with turrets – yet another thing designed to do a specific thing – controlling and defending an area – and that was gutted down just because it did exactly what it was designed to do.

You just showed yourself what it is you don’t see. Every time you have a class who’s doing the big damage while traiting completely defensively you ALWAYS get the out come of “Too stronk”. Especially in this game GW2.

What you believe is logical and acceptable is not the truth. This just absolutely confirms you’re beliefs on balance should be disregarded. For example what would you say to say a shatter mesmer who could 1v2 and keep points while doing so? OMGNERFMEOWANETZ!! is what I’d imagine right? How about a thief who could 1v1 anyone, 1v2, and kite 1v3 all the while never losing a point? I’m all for having people be able to over perform based on skill, but you have to have a line where its only based on skill….not over performing classes.

Either damage or dem survives has to be nerfed significantly. Pick one.

Thank you

Azukas.1426:

You just showed yourself what it is you don’t see. Every time you have a class who’s doing the big damage while traiting completely defensively you ALWAYS get the out come of “Too stronk”. Especially in this game GW2.

Mostly defensively, i wrote (there is HGH there too, to provide some might). And then there is the scrapper line. That isn’t just about defense – it’s about being a frontline, melee fighter. And that means also having enough damage to warrant that choice, be it via traits or the instruments provided (and the meta build indeed uses Perfectly Weighted, the only hammer trait they’ve got there).
Also, that’s just how the mechanics work. Attack stats are much more important than defensive ones due to how they interact with each else. That’s nothing new.

Azukas.1426:

What you believe is logical and acceptable is not the truth. This just absolutely confirms you’re beliefs on balance should be disregarded. For example what would you say to say a shatter mesmer who could 1v2 and keep points while doing so? OMGNERFMEOWANETZ!! is what I’d imagine right? How about a thief who could 1v1 anyone, 1v2, and kite 1v3 all the while never losing a point? I’m all for having people be able to over perform based on skill, but you have to have a line where its only based on skill….not over performing classes.

Either damage or dem survives has to be nerfed significantly. Pick one.

Thank you

I could say the same about your beliefs. You are comparing a thief and a shatter mesmer with an elite spec that was designed specifically to make melee fighters out of engineers. That’s just not their role. Of course they won’t perform well if you force them to do so.
And such a build disregards anything else in order to bring that offense and survivability. That’s also the reason why no one bothers using it in any other mode.
The sustain and damage you’re complaining about don’t come for free, you know.
All you’re doing is screaming “OMGNERF”, but you don’t even comprehend what’s the actual issue. You’re just saying that having purely offensive stats (and some traits) shouldn’t warrant good damage, and having a ton of defensive traits shouldn’t warrant good means of defense. That’s crazy.
The scrapper is doing exactly what’s supposed to do.
If there is an issue with pvp modes, it’s that “what’s supposed to do” ends up making him extremely suitable to defending and controlling points, especially when alone (as it’s mostly about selfish support/sustain, anyway).
The solution you provide is to slap some nerf to take what he’s supposed to do and make it weak even in that regard. That’s just stupid.
If anything, what should be done is to change what he’s supposed to do. Make it less good when alone and better in groups by changing some of the scrapper traits, so that the end result would be less suitable to defending points in 1vsX situations.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

You just showed yourself what it is you don’t see. Every time you have a class who’s doing the big damage while traiting completely defensively you ALWAYS get the out come of “Too stronk”. Especially in this game GW2.

Mostly defensively, i wrote (there is HGH there too, to provide some might). And then there is the scrapper line. That isn’t just about defense – it’s about being a frontline, melee fighter. And that means also having enough damage to warrant that choice, be it via traits or the instruments provided (and the meta build indeed uses Perfectly Weighted, the only hammer trait they’ve got there).
Also, that’s just how the mechanics work. Attack stats are much more important than defensive ones due to how they interact with each else. That’s nothing new.

Azukas.1426:

What you believe is logical and acceptable is not the truth. This just absolutely confirms you’re beliefs on balance should be disregarded. For example what would you say to say a shatter mesmer who could 1v2 and keep points while doing so? OMGNERFMEOWANETZ!! is what I’d imagine right? How about a thief who could 1v1 anyone, 1v2, and kite 1v3 all the while never losing a point? I’m all for having people be able to over perform based on skill, but you have to have a line where its only based on skill….not over performing classes.

Either damage or dem survives has to be nerfed significantly. Pick one.

Thank you

I could say the same about your beliefs. You are comparing a thief and a shatter mesmer with an elite spec that was designed specifically to make melee fighters out of engineers. That’s just not their role. Of course they won’t perform well if you force them to do so.
And such a build disregards anything else in order to bring that offense and survivability. That’s also the reason why no one bothers using it in any other mode.
The sustain and damage you’re complaining about don’t come for free, you know.
All you’re doing is screaming “OMGNERF”, but you don’t even comprehend what’s the actual issue. You’re just saying that having purely offensive stats (and some traits) shouldn’t warrant good damage, and having a ton of defensive traits shouldn’t warrant good means of defense. That’s crazy.
The scrapper is doing exactly what’s supposed to do.
If there is an issue with pvp modes, it’s that “what’s supposed to do” ends up making him extremely suitable to defending and controlling points, especially when alone (as it’s mostly about selfish support/sustain, anyway).
The solution you provide is to slap some nerf to take what he’s supposed to do and make it weak even in that regard. That’s just stupid.
If anything, what should be done is to change what he’s supposed to do. Make it less good when alone and better in groups by changing some of the scrapper traits, so that the end result would be less suitable to defending points in 1vsX situations.

Once again you are just arguing against yourself and not looking at the big picture.

You literally are only focusing on “Anet said I was supposed to do this so that’s what this is!!” and disregarding actual game balance. Did you watch the finals? You see the engineer from Rank 55 finish killing the lord while being wailed on by another player from Team PZ while wearing a marauder amulet? In what world do you honestly believe that is ok?

It is not good for the game to have 1 class do what scrapper can currently do. You need to choose. You want to hold a point on a scrapper that’s fine, but you’re damage needs a huge nerf then. You want to do that huge damage? That’s fine then you can’t sustain a fight worth a kitten. That’s balance.

I think you need to look at the entire picture of all the classes, core specs, and elite specs to understand. Take your time.

Azukas.1426:

Once again you are just arguing against yourself and not looking at the big picture.
You literally are only focusing on “Anet said I was supposed to do this so that’s what this is!!” and disregarding actual game balance. Did you watch the finals? You see the engineer from Rank 55 finish killing the lord while being wailed on by another player from Team PZ while wearing a marauder amulet? In what world do you honestly believe that is ok?

In one where an elite spec is designed to do exactly that, being good alone and offering few means of group support. I wonder if you ever took a good look and saw how self-centered such a build is.
I don’t see being unbalanced. It specializes in doing a single thing, and does it well.
That thing just happens to work so well in PvP settings, and that’s what people are having issues with.

See, what’s you’re likely missing from our conversation is that i agree as well that something should be done.
But whereas you would just stupidly nerf everything he’s good with, missing the whole point of the specialization being specialized in doing that, i would rather change what it is specialized in.
More specifically, i would change some scrapper traits to make them group-wide, but lowering their individual efficency. Thus making it less good when alone, but offering better support in group situations compared to the current situation.

Azukas.1426:

It is not good for the game to have 1 class do what scrapper can currently do.

You need to choose. You want to hold a point on a scrapper that’s fine, but you’re damage needs a huge nerf then. You want to do that huge damage? That’s fine then you can’t sustain a fight worth a kitten. That’s balance.

No, that’s just a subset of things classes can do that just happens to do what’s most useful for keeping points. That’s the issue at hand.
A class can be good at both and still be balanced. Because it lacks other factors (like group support, in scrapper’s case).
The issue is not that he does those things well.
But rather, is that he does those specific things. As those are all that matters in the context he’s used for.

Azukas.1426:

I think you need to look at the entire picture of all the classes, core specs, and elite specs to understand. Take your time.

I could say the same to you. You’re completely missing the point, though.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

Once again you are just arguing against yourself and not looking at the big picture.
You literally are only focusing on “Anet said I was supposed to do this so that’s what this is!!” and disregarding actual game balance. Did you watch the finals? You see the engineer from Rank 55 finish killing the lord while being wailed on by another player from Team PZ while wearing a marauder amulet? In what world do you honestly believe that is ok?

In one where an elite spec is designed to do exactly that, being good alone and offering few means of group support. I wonder if you ever took a good look and saw how self-centered such a build is.
I don’t see being unbalanced. It specializes in doing a single thing, and does it well.
That thing just happens to work so well in PvP settings, and that’s what people are having issues with.

See, what’s you’re likely missing from our conversation is that i agree as well that something should be done.
But whereas you would just stupidly nerf everything he’s good with, missing the whole point of the specialization being specialized in doing that, i would rather change what it is specialized in.
More specifically, i would change some scrapper traits to make them group-wide, but lowering their individual efficency. Thus making it less good when alone, but offering better support in group situations compared to the current situation.

Azukas.1426:

It is not good for the game to have 1 class do what scrapper can currently do.

You need to choose. You want to hold a point on a scrapper that’s fine, but you’re damage needs a huge nerf then. You want to do that huge damage? That’s fine then you can’t sustain a fight worth a kitten. That’s balance.

No, that’s just a subset of things classes can do that just happens to do what’s most useful for keeping points. That’s the issue at hand.
A class can be good at both and still be balanced. Because it lacks other factors (like group support, in scrapper’s case).
The issue is not that he does those things well.
But rather, is that he does those specific things. As those are all that matters in the context he’s used for.

Azukas.1426:

I think you need to look at the entire picture of all the classes, core specs, and elite specs to understand. Take your time.

I could say the same to you. You’re completely missing the point, though.

You are only focusing on engineer. A look at the entire game yields a different PoV.

The fact a scrapper can pull of cele ele point holding, better damage, 1v1 like a boss, and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Azukas.1426:

You are only focusing on engineer. A look at the entire game yields a different PoV.

And you’re only focusing on damage and self-sustain. That’s your issue. Those aren’t the only thing classes can do. You’re the one that should look the entire game.

Azukas.1426:

The fact a scrapper can pull of cele ele point holding, better damage, 1v1 like a boss, and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

Again – you’re comparing an elite spec and meta build that focuses on doing a specific thing with a class that’s well more rounded – group support included. There is no point in such a comparison. Of course the specialized one ends up being better if it does what it is specialized on.

Azukas.1426:

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

And this is why i’m strongly opposed to such blind (or biased, but i can’t be sure) points of view.
All you would do is making barely average in what it is supposed to be its strong point, while doing nothing to address its weak points, essentially making the specialization worthless.

Like i said above, they could turn its self sustain in group one, so that it can be individually weaker – and thus less suited for defending points while alone – but still be useful in group. That could be a reasonable solution.
But no, all you’re talking about is just about nerf, nerf, nerf.

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

You are only focusing on engineer. A look at the entire game yields a different PoV.

And you’re only focusing on damage and self-sustain. That’s your issue. Those aren’t the only thing classes can do. You’re the one that should look the entire game.

So you are saying a Scrapper has nothing to offer in a group fight……

Azukas.1426:

The fact a scrapper can pull of cele ele point holding, better damage, 1v1 like a boss, and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

Again – you’re comparing an elite spec and meta build that focuses on doing a specific thing with a class that’s well more rounded – group support included. There is no point in such a comparison. Of course the specialized one ends up being better if it does what it is specialized on.

So what you are getting at is scrapper has no group support thus the over performing it does is ok. So the fact you have 2 water fields with blast finishers, can stomp/res from 900 units away, Group Stealth, a lightning field, group reflection, 2 ways to give allies regen, light field with whirl finisher, 50% damage reduction to allies, and this on top of being able to stand on point in a group fight dealing stupid amounts of damage. Yeah no group support at all…

Azukas.1426:

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

And this is why i’m strongly opposed to such blind (or biased, but i can’t be sure) points of view.
All you would do is making barely average in what it is supposed to be its strong point, while doing nothing to address its weak points, essentially making the specialization worthless.

Like i said above, they could turn its self sustain in group one, so that it can be individually weaker – and thus less suited for defending points while alone – but still be useful in group. That could be a reasonable solution.
But no, all you’re talking about is just about nerf, nerf, nerf.

So your entire argument against my rightful analysis of Scrapper is that you want even more group support on top of everything I just highlighted if the damage is reduced….Yeah no.

I replied in bold inside your quote. I thank you for your input and want to wish you well.

Thank you

Azukas.1426:

So the fact you have 2 water fields with blast finishers

Base engineer skill, not a scrapper one. The scrapper itself doesn’t even provide blast finishers, by the way. Only leap and whirl ones.

can stomp/res from 900 units away

Yeah, that’s literally all its elite mechanic does. One at a time, with a cooldown, and an hp bar attached. I’m not sure you really want to compare it with other elite mechanics.

Azukas.1426:

Group Stealth

An elite skill that stealths and gives your location away, since the gyro itself is always visible. It would more apt to call it a detargeting tool, since that’s what it is used for. And can be destroyed easily, but people never bother to do it. Quite an overrated skill.

, a lightning field

That’s useful mainly via leap finishers. That means mostly when used by the scrapper itself. Unless you’re so eager to give people swiftness…

, group reflection,

If you slot bulwark gyro, indeed you’ve got one, centered on yourself. It can work as group support, but i wouldn’t call it its main function. As far as i’ve seen, though, meta build don’t even use bulwark gyro.

2 ways to give allies regen,

Yep, that’s some group support. I did mention it had few means of group support in some post above, after all. Albeit, even those are due to engineer skills, rather than scrapper ones.

light field with whirl finisher,

Like above, this is due of an engineer skill. It’s a clunky way to provide support, and kinda unreliable, and you’ll likely waste the reflect on the electro-whirl, but we could call it some group support.

50% damage reduction to allies

That gets inflicted to the gyro instead, thus having more people makes it die quite faster. This trait is shared by purge and healing gyro as well, where they heal a single people at a time. Thus making them far better when alone, and weaker when in groups.

and this on top of being able to stand on point in a group fight dealing stupid amounts of damage.

By using offensive stats and traits that are mostly about self-sustain or other defensive means.

Yeah no group support at all…*

Most of the times i’ve written about having few means of group support, though. And indeed, there isn’t much. Two regens, a clunky way of healing conditions (assuming you even hit allies), a gyro that’s not even on the meta build and that’s destroyed faster the more allies there are and the reflection field that comes with it (thus, compared to that build, since it will miss elixir B and toss elixir B, it will have less offense and stability).

So your entire argument against my rightful analysis of Scrapper is that you want even more group support on top of everything I just highlighted if the damage is reduced….Yeah no.

Guess we have a different concept of what a good group support is. Or of rightful, either.

Azukas.1426:

I replied in bold inside your quote. I thank you for your input and want to wish you well.

Thank you

Have a good evening too.

it seems wrong to consider only scrapper only things when talking about scrapper balance because 2/3 of the traits are base engi and only 1/6 of the possible utilities are scrapper only and 1/4 weapon sets is scrapper only.

very narrow minded.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

So the fact you have 2 water fields with blast finishers

Base engineer skill, not a scrapper one. The scrapper itself doesn’t even provide blast finishers, by the way. Only leap and whirl ones.

can stomp/res from 900 units away

Yeah, that’s literally all its elite mechanic does. One at a time, with a cooldown, and an hp bar attached. I’m not sure you really want to compare it with other elite mechanics.

Azukas.1426:

Group Stealth

An elite skill that stealths and gives your location away, since the gyro itself is always visible. It would more apt to call it a detargeting tool, since that’s what it is used for. And can be destroyed easily, but people never bother to do it. Quite an overrated skill.

, a lightning field

That’s useful mainly via leap finishers. That means mostly when used by the scrapper itself. Unless you’re so eager to give people swiftness…

, group reflection,

If you slot bulwark gyro, indeed you’ve got one, centered on yourself. It can work as group support, but i wouldn’t call it its main function. As far as i’ve seen, though, meta build don’t even use bulwark gyro.

2 ways to give allies regen,

Yep, that’s some group support. I did mention it had few means of group support in some post above, after all. Albeit, even those are due to engineer skills, rather than scrapper ones.

light field with whirl finisher,

Like above, this is due of an engineer skill. It’s a clunky way to provide support, and kinda unreliable, and you’ll likely waste the reflect on the electro-whirl, but we could call it some group support.

50% damage reduction to allies

That gets inflicted to the gyro instead, thus having more people makes it die quite faster. This trait is shared by purge and healing gyro as well, where they heal a single people at a time. Thus making them far better when alone, and weaker when in groups.

and this on top of being able to stand on point in a group fight dealing stupid amounts of damage.

By using offensive stats and traits that are mostly about self-sustain or other defensive means.

Yeah no group support at all…*

Most of the times i’ve written about having few means of group support, though. And indeed, there isn’t much. Two regens, a clunky way of healing conditions (assuming you even hit allies), a gyro that’s not even on the meta build and that’s destroyed faster the more allies there are and the reflection field that comes with it (thus, compared to that build, since it will miss elixir B and toss elixir B, it will have less offense and stability).

So your entire argument against my rightful analysis of Scrapper is that you want even more group support on top of everything I just highlighted if the damage is reduced….Yeah no.

Guess we have a different concept of what a good group support is. Or of rightful, either.

Azukas.1426:

I replied in bold inside your quote. I thank you for your input and want to wish you well.

Thank you

Have a good evening too.

Uhh did you just try to justify that….wow.

You need to play other classes…

Wow

insanemaniac.2456:

it seems wrong to consider only scrapper only things when talking about scrapper balance because 2/3 of the traits are base engi and only 1/6 of the possible utilities are scrapper only and 1/4 weapon sets is scrapper only.

very narrow minded.

I feel that clearly distinguish between the two is necessary, instead. Since it makes evident how they’re differently focused upon.
Beside that, people seems to have issues with the scrapper, but not with the base engineer. There wouldn’t be a point on nerfing core trait/skills if the core class isn’t too strong, and it would make the balance even more terrible once some other elite specs come (balancing depending on the best outcome of any separate elite specialization – and i should point out that an elite specialization is called like that because it makes indeed specialized in something, thus stronger at that than the base class – would means nerfing everything the core spec has, one at a time).
Also, those two engineer trait lines you mention are mostly about self-support/sustain anyway. Even bunker down ends up being better when alone rather than in groups.
That last post stemmed over the group support of the scrapper, anyway. And by going scrapper you do lose out on that, even compared to the base engineer. Let alone other classes.
And thus, if what he’s specialized it has to be reduced, it should be compensated by raising what he performs poorly. For example, group support (mostly because it would be relatively easy…they could change how rapid regeneration and adaptive armor work, in terms of traits).

Manuhell.2759:

insanemaniac.2456:

it seems wrong to consider only scrapper only things when talking about scrapper balance because 2/3 of the traits are base engi and only 1/6 of the possible utilities are scrapper only and 1/4 weapon sets is scrapper only.

very narrow minded.

I feel that clearly distinguish between the two is necessary, instead. Since it makes evident how they’re differently focused upon.
Beside that, people seems to have issues with the scrapper, but not with the base engineer. There wouldn’t be a point on nerfing core trait/skills if the core class isn’t too strong, and it would make the balance even more terrible once some other elite specs come (balancing depending on the best outcome of any separate elite specialization – and i should point out that an elite specialization is called like that because it makes indeed specialized in something, thus stronger at that than the base class – would means nerfing everything the core spec has, one at a time).
Also, those two engineer trait lines you mention are mostly about self-support/sustain anyway. Even bunker down ends up being better when alone rather than in groups.
That last post stemmed over the group support of the scrapper, anyway. And by going scrapper you do lose out on that, even compared to the base engineer. Let alone other classes.
And thus, if what he’s specialized it has to be reduced, it should be compensated by raising what he performs poorly. For example, group support (mostly because it would be relatively easy…they could change how rapid regeneration and adaptive armor work, in terms of traits).

I told you to look at the entire picture. The fact that you can’t really puts your bias in the lime light.

I believe if it’s best for you to take a break on your engi and explore classes like warrior thief etc. Get a real perspective on the game.

Azukas.1426:

I told you to look at the entire picture. The fact that you can’t really puts your bias in the lime light.

I believe if it’s best for you to take a break on your engi and explore classes like warrior thief etc. Get a real perspective on the game.

You talk about bias, but all you’ve done here is asking for the scrapper to be nerfed in doing he’s designed to, refusing any compensation for doing so, and all of that because it happens to work well in PvP (disregarding any other mode in doing so).
I talked about changing what’s he specialized too, to make it less suitable to point defense, and yet you still advocated only to nerf. To take what he’s focused upon and make it average, while retaining the weak points such a specialization brings along.
You don’t want it to be specialized, and still you want all the downsides that come from being specialized in something. And then you accuse me of bias, how amusing.

And i’ve got all the classes, albeit not the specializations (most classes utterly bore me, actually). I do have a good perspective of the game, in my opinion.
I don’t know if you’ve got a good perspective instead, but neither i care, and i won’t tell you to get one. Still, it’s getting late here, and thus i’ll sleep. Good night.

wolverine.5164:

Is pathetic how scrappers can deal a huge amounts of and still be able to sustain such…
there nothing much to explain, this is a fact and it needs to be fixed right away kitten , i wonder how stupid arena net is to not see this.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to specify the game mode. Otherwise, you just seem like a whiner.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

I told you to look at the entire picture. The fact that you can’t really puts your bias in the lime light.

I believe if it’s best for you to take a break on your engi and explore classes like warrior thief etc. Get a real perspective on the game.

You talk about bias, but all you’ve done here is asking for the scrapper to be nerfed in doing he’s designed to, refusing any compensation for doing so, and all of that because it happens to work well in PvP (disregarding any other mode in doing so).
I talked about changing what’s he specialized too, to make it less suitable to point defense, and yet you still advocated only to nerf. To take what he’s focused upon and make it average, while retaining the weak points such a specialization brings along.
You don’t want it to be specialized, and still you want all the downsides that come from being specialized in something. And then you accuse me of bias, how amusing.

And i’ve got all the classes, albeit not the specializations (most classes utterly bore me, actually). I do have a good perspective of the game, in my opinion.
I don’t know if you’ve got a good perspective instead, but neither i care, and i won’t tell you to get one. Still, it’s getting late here, and thus i’ll sleep. Good night.

No compensation is needed as I’ve already proved. Just because the truth is starting dawn on you doesn’t mean you can start spouting lies.

A non compensated nerf is needed. Defending a point is fine but being able to do everything so well is not.

Thank you

nerf scrapper lol lol sure but be sure to also nerf chill condi necro and condi invuln with the 8k hitting pets tank druid

kreven.6017:

nerf scrapper lol lol sure but be sure to also nerf chill condi necro and condi invuln with the 8k hitting pets tank druid

Well I would propose nerfs to a lot of the new elites introduced with HoT. This isn’t about them though since it’s the engi forum.

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

Salt incoming… Either understand that you have to play FotM to be relevant or keep banging your head up against the forums calling for nerfs whenever your favourite class isn’t Meta… and don’t say it’s for the good of the game. It’s what MMO’s do… if I hear the word ‘Balance’ again… I swear, I’ll screvelereap you’re kitten so hard!

DHawk.2687:

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)

I am not talking about ranged weapons.
I am talking about range.
The range on a weapon.
That can be a melee weapon too.

You said that scrapper has more range than daredevil.
I pointed out how that is not true.
Dagger has also better range than most hammer attacks(except the hammer leap and the immobile lightning field).
Both dagger #2 (preferably below 50% hp) and shadowshot are spammable as long as you have initiative.
Both have a lot more range than the general scrapper melee attacks.
One will kite a scrapper way easier than a daredevil.

Staff also has more range than hammer (and some defensive + offensive stuff too, like evade attack and leap, evade and attack, weakness and attack, blind and attack, attack and reflect on auto (on part 3, not instantly available though) and no cds on any).
Not talking about which weapons are better or anything. Just pointing out range and functions.

Again, also not a complaint.
I just want to correct this misinformation about hammer having more range than daredevil, which is incorrect. One of the scrapper hammer weakness is its low range.

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)

I am not talking about ranged weapons.
I am talking about range.
The range on a weapon.
That can be a melee weapon too.

You said that scrapper has more range than daredevil.
I pointed out how that is not true.
Dagger has also better range than most hammer attacks(except the hammer leap and the immobile lightning field).
Both dagger #2 (preferably below 50% hp) and shadowshot are spammable as long as you have initiative.
Both have a lot more range than the general scrapper melee attacks.
One will kite a scrapper way easier than a daredevil.

Staff also has more range than hammer (and some defensive + offensive stuff too, like evade attack and leap, evade and attack, weakness and attack, blind and attack, attack and reflect on auto (on part 3, not instantly available though) and no cds on any).
Not talking about which weapons are better or anything. Just pointing out range and functions.

Again, also not a complaint.
I just want to correct this misinformation about hammer having more range than daredevil, which is incorrect. One of the scrapper hammer weakness is its low range.

what you forgetting is that heartseaker and shadowshot are skills that bring you closer to the enemy so it’s not a skill you can use to kyte (unless you try and somewhat jump away with heartseaker)
Furthermore yes we have no CD on skills, but we have to spend ini, e.g. just using blindpowder and heartseaker to go invis uses up 9 ini, which is a lot since almost every skill costs between 4-6 now since thief is op and must nerf
well we’ll see what anets does today, i don’t think there will be any balance changes, but there will definatly be something new in the gemstore xD

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)

I am not talking about ranged weapons.
I am talking about range.
The range on a weapon.
That can be a melee weapon too.

You said that scrapper has more range than daredevil.
I pointed out how that is not true.
Dagger has also better range than most hammer attacks(except the hammer leap and the immobile lightning field).
Both dagger #2 (preferably below 50% hp) and shadowshot are spammable as long as you have initiative.
Both have a lot more range than the general scrapper melee attacks.
One will kite a scrapper way easier than a daredevil.

Staff also has more range than hammer (and some defensive + offensive stuff too, like evade attack and leap, evade and attack, weakness and attack, blind and attack, attack and reflect on auto (on part 3, not instantly available though) and no cds on any).
Not talking about which weapons are better or anything. Just pointing out range and functions.

Again, also not a complaint.
I just want to correct this misinformation about hammer having more range than daredevil, which is incorrect. One of the scrapper hammer weakness is its low range.

what you forgetting is that heartseaker and shadowshot are skills that bring you closer to the enemy so it’s not a skill you can use to kyte (unless you try and somewhat jump away with heartseaker)
Furthermore yes we have no CD on skills, but we have to spend ini, e.g. just using blindpowder and heartseaker to go invis uses up 9 ini, which is a lot since almost every skill costs between 4-6 now since thief is op and must nerf
well we’ll see what anets does today, i don’t think there will be any balance changes, but there will definatly be something new in the gemstore xD

I already mentioned the initiative.
I just pointed out that daredevil attacks (dp and staff) are more difficult to kite for the opponent, due to a higher range on them. Nowhere did I say that heartseaker and shadowsthot keep you at range or anything.

Did they say there would be balance changes on the 23rd?

yeah i read it in the forums somewhere that there will be minor changes, meaning probs just visual bugs so there won’t be much change in the game i bet
but i don’t really care anymore because i think the game is too broken to make a healthy pvp/wvw balance for fighting

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

scrapper hammer has 3 extremely high damage skills and 1 pretty good one.

insanemaniac.2456:

scrapper hammer has 3 extremely high damage skills and 1 pretty good one.

that one pretty good one still hits for a kittenload

Azukas.1426:

insanemaniac.2456:

scrapper hammer has 3 extremely high damage skills and 1 pretty good one.

that one pretty good one still hits for a kittenload

it does, it just takes about 3x as long to cast… while evading.

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kitten
crapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

Guess some people are forgetting that we’ve got a rather detailed analysis about skill damages just some days ago in this same forum.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/219594/Power_Scrapper.png
“3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload”, right?

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

Manuhell.2759:

Guess some people are forgetting that we’ve got a rather detailed analysis about skill damages just some days ago in this same forum.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/219594/Power_Scrapper.png
“3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload”, right?

do elaborate on how the analysis was performed and what data was obtained

because that is far innacurate for single skill damage

if engineer really had so many skills doing 20-30k+ damage pvp wouldnt even exist

also another Huge over sight you had was that this chart you used was a RAID DPS CHART

pve stats =/= pvp stats

Key
Name of the Skill (Whole Chain)
The name of the skill used. If there is a chain, like hammer auto attack, the whole chain is used for further calculations.
Baseline Value
The tooltip power damage. Nothing you should worry about.
Power Damage
The full buffed average power damage of a skill.
Condition Damage
The full buffed average condition damage of a skill.
Total Damage
The full buffed average total damage of a skill.
Cast Time
The time you require after you start casting a skill, until you can continue with casting other skills. Includes aftercast.
<- incl. Quickness
The Cast Time while under the effect of Quickness. Quickness is a boon, granted by the Mesmer, which reduces your cast time by 33% and is considered 100% uptime.
(Note: movement skills are not affected by quickness. The cast time is marked red for those skills in the spreadsheet.
Cooldown
The time you require after you finished casting the skill. The total Cooldown after you start casting a skill would be this value + the Cast Time value.
<- incl. Alacrity
The Cooldown while under the effect of Alacrity. Alacrity is a buff, granted by the Chronomancer, which reduces your cool down by 25% and is considered 100% uptime.
DpS
The damage a skill deals over time all on it’s own. This value is basicly the Total Damage divided by the total Cooldown (means, including Cast Time).
<- incl. Quick. & Al.
The DpS a skill deals, while under the effect of Quickness and Alacrity.
Chrono Boost
The % damage boost a skill will have, if your Chronomancer grants you 100% Quickness and Alacrity.
DpiSCT
It stands for Damage per invested Second Cast Time and determines the priority of a skill or how strong a skill really is. This value shows how much damage you’d be dealing if the skill would have no cool down. It is often mixed up with DpS / Damage per Second which is a completly different value.
For example, a skill which deals 5’000 damage and has 0.5s cast time has a DpiSCT of 10’000. If you have another skill with 20’000 damage output, but a cast time of 4s, it’d have a DpiSCT of 5’000 and makes it a worse skill to use. You’d be dealing more DpS with the first one (as long as we ignore the Cooldown / as long as you use other skills too, at least auto attacks, ofc).
<- incl. Quickness
The DpiSCT including Quickness shows the true strength of a skill. This is the most important value of them all and shows how mighty a skill really is. You should always priorize your skills according to this to achieve max DpS.

you overlooked that bit of data wich explains at the numbers are fully buffed skills and such to begin with

the skills real damage is the Baseline Value damage

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6000331

While i do agree that stats are different between the modes, that wasn’t the point of the post.
I posted it because it gives us a way to compare those several skills. And given that changing stats would proportionally impact them the same way, while we wouldn’t know their exact dps, we can still know their relative strength.

Specifically, if people post about the hammer having “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” and we end up with half of them being worse than several other skills like poison grenade or throw wrench maybe there is something wrong with the perception of people about the hammer to begin with.

Edited due of some wrong comparisons.

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

kitten? if you compare JUST the weapons hammer is better, if you compare the whole classes scrapper is better too
in what sense is a cc that is totally telegraphed and aviodable by just walking away, you have like 2-3 sec to just take to steps left, you act like you are instantly stunned??
define “KIT” there are no kits in this game
so what if Guard has weaponswap, you have gadgets and the toolbelt which replaced weapon swap, your arguments have no valid point and just come close to trolling, with the difference that trolls are smarter about it

Manuhell.2759:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6000331

While i do agree that stats are different between the modes, that wasn’t the point of the post.
I posted it because it gives us a way to compare those several skills. And given that changing stats would proportionally impact them the same way, while we wouldn’t know their exact dps, we can still know their relative strength.

Specifically, if people post about the hammer having “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” and we end up with half of them being worse than several other skills like poison grenade or throw wrench maybe there is something wrong with the perception of people about the hammer to begin with.

Edited due of some wrong comparisons.

well for that to work you would need a spread sheet of all professions’s skill damage with max buffs as well its easy to call something op when youo look up its damage only with berserker stats 25 might and 25 bloodlust and write it as default damage
that is how the raid damage chart was made and why it is innacurate for pvp purposes

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

@ Manuhell.
Good points.

Azukas.1426:

and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Many scrappers run with Paladin amulet.
DH has good survival for a Marauder.
Power herald even uses zerker amulet and has great survival.
Druids with Mender (no toughness) can stay alive quite long and deal good dmg.
So its not like they are the only ones with good dmg and survival.
Reaper has become a dmg + survival tank.
Its not like the rest of the game cant do dmg + survival (all the mentioned ones bar druid maybe, also do more dmg than scrapper and have more range).

Also you dont understand the coefficients.

Obviously an instant 1 hit attack, will have a lower coefficient per hit, than a channel multiple hit spell. The coefficients of scrapper multihit/channels are the coefficients of all hits total counted.

A non-scrapper can do multiple, 1 hit attacks, in the duration of the scrapper channel.
If you count those multiple 1 hit attacks, not only do you get more dmg, but also a higher coefficient than the scrapper.

There are attacks with lower coefficients than scrapper hammer multi hits/channels and who also do more dmg than the scrapper multi hits/channels.

The scrapper coefficients are misleading.
They are not generally higher than other classes their attacks.

Also Scrapper attacks are almost all around the 180 range mark or lower even.
Meaning you can stay out of its range really well.

1 Autoattack 130 range.
2 180 range.
3: Multi leap with 240 radius and 1000 range.
4 170 range (and only from the front).
5 1200 range iimmobile pulse field with 240 radus.

The sustain you can cut a lot by preventing the overcharge heal turret + leapfinisher combo.

Anyway as earlier said, scrapper should be made a bit less good in 1on1 and better in group support. Playstyle shift rather than nerf.
This would tackle the 1 on 1 complaints.

DHawk.2687:

Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)

The discussion about hammer being a close range melee weapon and what it therefore needs (like sustain etc.) was a discussion that started between you and Mov1246. You confuse him with me.

I replied to that, how the comparision didnt work.

If scrapper needs sustrain for being in melee and if Daredevil is melee too,
than it doesnt have to mean that Daredevil needs sustain too.

Daredevil deal dmg differently than Scrappers.
Daredevils deal with opponent dmg differenty than scrappers (more avoidance rather than tankyness).
Daredevils have a different role (with their mobility, recap, +1 style) than scrappers and both have different tools.
They are different and need different things, even though both are melee.

Also really, daredevil has a lot bigger range on attacks (not only counting gapclosers, which they have more off too). Saying that scrapper has more range in general than Daredevil is just incorrect. Not really a complaint or anything. Just want to point out that its incorrect.

ranged weapons on the thief is either Pistol main hand (which noone will use since it’s bad) or shortbow, which isn’t a bad weapon but if you think you can kill a scrapper using shortbow you are more than wrong
furthermore shadowshot is the only ranged gapcloser that does dmg by default, the other e.g. steal, shadowtrap, Infiltrators signet or shadow step do not do dmg (only steal when traited)
the average dmg is higher on scrapper than on thief while not having to risk as much as thief does since almost every attack is a block or evade while doing dmg, as if every attack on thief was either a staff 5 or sword 3, which it isn’t
furthermore engi has one of the strongest heals in game and combining the #3 leap finisher with the toolbelt heal skill is another good 7k heal on the engies part
the problem with scrapper is that while just trying to survive with block and evade skills you actually do more dmg to the enemey then he does to you, which is bullkitten, if the guardian would be able to do about 4k dmg with every single block he does, he would be more present in the game and would be in need of nerfs
I can understand that scrappers gameplay style is melee and a mix of survive and dmg, but you cannot be that good in both things at once, the arguments that Reapers or Revs do the same is wrong, first of all reaper gets it’s survivability from shroud, once your through that he mostly can’t refill it to 100% before he dies and most Necro heals aren’t strong, Rev the only thing you have to worry about is the glint heal, the shiro heal is sub par, but rev’s survivability isn’t as strong as Scrappers, Rev is just more mobile
The Scrapper trait line is fine as it is, the problem is how op the hammer is, too much reward for too little risk, either hammer dmg needs to be toned done or the CD need to be increased by a bit, but it’s state now is just pathetic

That sounds like a load of bull! Have you ever tried to stay alive as a scrapper? I am going to start to say that yes Revenant is trickier to play than scrapper but a skilled Revenant will survive longer than a skilled scrapper.

I suggest that all who asks to nerf hammer damage tries scrapper for a while and see how strong the hammer is. Then play DH with marauder for example and see how strong longbow is. What should be done (as have been said from many experienced scrappers) is to nerf the amount of blocks and evades. Hammer is strong because most scrappers go almost all out damage. If you nerf hammer damage scrappers will fall out of meta completely and that should not be a goal, we should have more classes in the meta not less. And… a nerf at all to engi I think they will fall out of meta.

Yes i have played scrapper, marauder with hammer, heal turret, grenades, toolkit and elixir s
and yes it is pathetically easy to stay alive in 1v1 and even up to 1v3, and no I’m not that good with engi, but with hammer it’s easy to stay alive since almost every skill helps you sustain in some way
then yes LB does more dmg if you compare skill 2 to hammer 3
aaaaaand that’s abou it
lb 3 is only good when you actually block a projectile, 4 is meh and buggy and 5 takes to long and doesn’t do that much dmg, 5 is utility for the immob
so no lb is not stronger than hammer when you compare every skill
and a guard marauder will die faster than a scrapper marauder as well (when on the same skill lv)
(( there is a reason you don’t see any guards, warri or thieves in esl anymore, but plenty of scrappers and revs))

the reason you see lot of scrappers to begin with is because of whiners putting them in a pedestal only to then get schooled when they try scrapper

your description of DH longbow skills shows how inexperienced and biased you are

No the reason you see a lot of scrappers is the fact that they can do everything that is needed atm very good, if you’ve ever played ESL in any game, doesn’t matter which one, players will ALWAYS play the strongest class/weapon/skill whatever, the most unbalanced or cheesy thing to have the highest winning potential, that is how it is in esports and there is no changing that or neglecting it
Furthermore why don’t you inform me about what i said about LB to be wrong Considering that my 2 mains are Guard and Thief i think i know what the longbow skills do thank you

how is lb not stronger than hammer when you got a 4s cooldown Killshot 1200 range

all hammer offers is avoidance 1s reflect,3 mini evades,2s block

all counterable with longbow 5 if we’re going by weapon skills alone

scrapper hammer only has one high damage skill and that’s the 4 skill wich has 20s cooldown

did you hit your head a few times as a child?
first of all LB only has one strong skill that is True Shot (4sec icd)
skill #3 is good but has a decent CD
you even said that almost every hammer skill is either avoiding dmg or reflecting it back, hammer 2 does more dmg as a whirl finsiher than skill 4 or 5 on longbow,
hammer 3 does more dmg than trueshot, 3 leap finishers and 3 evades
you can easly reflect LB2
Scrapper Hammer is a counter to Guards LB kittencrapper you can just kitten on projectiles

i can’t take someone like you serious who has no clue about the game
good day sir

EDIT: LB 5 counters all engi skill?? kitten!?
do you even know what it does?
it sends out a barrage of arrows that does low dmg
the last set of arrows sends a cage down that “immobs” you
simply don’t stand in the aoe or dodge the last barrage and you nullified the whole skill
where the kitten does that counter the entire weaponset?
or do you really play so bad that you don’t use any keys while playing and except every enemy to just fall over dead by looking at them??

the question was wich kit alone was better
so by that logic dh wins simply by having weapon swap lol
and hammer alone doesnt have stability thus the #5 pull hard ccs and keeps enemy inside lol hence how it counters the entire weapon set

now had traits and utilities been included then yeah sure longbow alone is a joke

kitten? if you compare JUST the weapons hammer is better, if you compare the whole classes scrapper is better too
in what sense is a cc that is totally telegraphed and aviodable by just walking away, you have like 2-3 sec to just take to steps left, you act like you are instantly stunned??
define “KIT” there are no kits in this game
so what if Guard has weaponswap, you have gadgets and the toolbelt which replaced weapon swap, your arguments have no valid point and just come close to trolling, with the difference that trolls are smarter about it

well the argument was in weapon skills alone , engineer kits are utilities and only 2 are worthwhile for scrapper

but since you brought up skills to the equation scrapper only has one skill to trigger dh traps without getting affected before engaging DH and that is Elixir S

Stability and Shields are rendered useless versus DH because

each trap dazes on activation so that is an easy 5 stability stacks removed on trigger
longbow has a 10s cd knockback
spear of justice is an unblockable pull
some traps are indeed unblockable to thats a daze that will break through shields

and because that isnt cheap enough traps give 10s fury on 20s cd
and dragon’s maw gives instand 10 might stack so just by placing two traps guard gains 80% theorical damage

and lets mention the fact traps enter cooldown when Placed rather than on activation wich brings up the potential for traps to strip up to 10 stability stacks on whatever fool charges on a guard that was sitting in a point for a while

Manuhell.2759:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6000331

While i do agree that stats are different between the modes, that wasn’t the point of the post.
I posted it because it gives us a way to compare those several skills. And given that changing stats would proportionally impact them the same way, while we wouldn’t know their exact dps, we can still know their relative strength.

Specifically, if people post about the hammer having “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” and we end up with half of them being worse than several other skills like poison grenade or throw wrench maybe there is something wrong with the perception of people about the hammer to begin with.

Edited due of some wrong comparisons.

whoa nelly. you need to take a second and think about what youre saying here.

according to that chart, 2 of these skills fall under “use immediately and dont suck with them or your dps will be kitten”. 1 of these skills falls just short of that prioritization, but is still far better than autoing and provides unrestricted blocks.

secondly, throw wrench does hit like a truck… when it hits twice. and theres no reason it shouldnt hit twice in pve. you can set up a clear, unwalled path for it easily. and in fact, look at how high pry bar is on that list as well. im sure you know it hits like a truck, because its the first button every engi presses after they pull you. and if it isnt, that engi is doin it wrong.

thirdly, rocket charge has a high total damage, but is unaffected by quickness because its a movement skill. thats why its low on the list. it doesnt have its dpsict multiplied by 1.5 to factor in quickness. so its about as strong as the ~2.2 bomb autos you could get in the same amount of time when you dont have quickness, but it also provides evades and 3 leaps.

please further your understanding of the information you cite before calling us ridiculous for saying these skills are strong. because its immediately obvious that they are strong and its silly to suggest otherwise.

What’s silly is to say that they’re “3 extremely high damage skills and 1 that still hits for a kittenload” to paint them as being overpowered, when the actual dps of some of those doesn’t necessarily end up being that much high compared to other skills we’ve got available. Unless you think that anything above “static shot” deals extremely high damage, at least.
Oh, indeed, some are strong. But it isn’t like they haven’t got their weak points, mainly due to cast times. Even the rocket charge you mention isn’t a full evade and can’t be canceled, meaning that a well-timed interrupt can still stop the scrapper. As it should be.

Manuhell.2759:

Even the rocket charge you mention isn’t a full evade and can’t be canceled, meaning that a well-timed interrupt can still stop the scrapper. As it should be.

quick question: Can some1 tell me at what time during rocket charge you are evading and at what time you aren’t (susceptible to cc) ?