Guild Wars 2

Phoenix.3416:

The problem with engineer is the best builds revolve around Crit and Grenades.

They recently nerfed engineer upgrade damage by a large amount due to adding sigils, which doesnt really buff an grenade engineer up much, the problem seems to be your weapon doesnt effect how powerful your kits are they seem to be fixed at damage levels.

Totally disagree. Wielding dual pistols with a Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Bloodlust puts our kit damage output through the roof.

Engineers are way more than their Grenade Kit. I’ve been using the FT/EG build for months, and my damage output is just fine.

I don’t like engineer because I hate being forced to use grenades. One (and 1/2, bombs) functional kit does not a class make. Okay, yeah, other kits get some use, I’m just a FT fan and it’s deeply frustrating how much better at everything that grenades is. Better AOE, better control, better survival, better (ANY) structure damage, better single-target damage… the list is painfully long.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

I don’t like engineer because I hate being forced to use grenades.

Why do you feel forced to use grenades? I stopped full-timing the Grenade Kit back in October. I have no issues in any area of the game wielding the Flamethrower or Elixir Gun.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Better AOE

That’s debatable. The Flamethrower’s “Flame Jet” skill is a conical attack with 450 range. The Grenade Kit’s “Grenade” skill has a radius of 150. How is that better AoE? Flame Jet offers 3 times the area of effect. With an additional Burn condition.

Flame Blast offers around 1.5K damage (base) with a 240 blast radius. The only Grenade Kit skill that matches that is the … Freeze Grenade.

So where is this superior AoE damage?

You may have a point in saying that in terms of single-target DPS, the Grenade Kit is better. Pre-patch, I would have agreed with you. But I think it’s much more even now.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

better control

I’m not too sure about this either. The Grenade Kit offers a Blind and a 2-second Chill effect. The Flamethrower offers a Blind and a 400-distance Knockback. I’ll take the direct Knockback over a 2-second Chill effect, especially since it additionally works as a soft interrupt against enemies with the Stability buff.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

better survival

This is definitely not true. Juggernaut gives you a straight buff to Toughness. The only way I could agree with this is if you’re standing in the back throwing grenades at 1,200 range; but the Flamethrower’s Flame Jet has a range of 450—well outside melee range.

As for the other things you’ve said, I think a lot of that is perception. The Flamethrower constantly hits over 4K damage. Flame Jet strikes 10 attacks over 2 seconds, so a 4K Flame Jet is 2K DPS … with better survivability … with better control.

The photo I posted above is a Flame Jet for over 5,000 damage on a Champion mob. I’ll gladly link another in a dungeon or something if that’s better validation, but I took a shot of that crit in reaction to this thread—I work with what I have in limited time; and I was farming.

Flame Jet Area/damage: Sure, so FT can outdamage grenades if you have 4+ enemies spread out in a line. Against the common 1-2 you get in normal play, this optimal will almost never come up. I played FT/EG stubbornly from 30-70, trawling the forum for play tips and gear advice, then swapped to untalanted grenades, and the utility and damage was still depressingly better. Where I had to at least expend some effort to kill a single elite before, I could now take 2-3.

Also, napalm is a kitten to actually land.

Control: Grenade’s blind is targetable, where the flamethrower’s will miss if the enemy isn’t sitting on your face. Knockback is nice, but it’s also required because kiting is the primary strategy as things take twice as long to die.

Survival: Juggernaut is nice, but not as nice as the enemy never hitting you. FT/EG vs. Nade/Bomb is night and day.

But I’m willing to admit that it’s entirely possible I was still playing it wrong. As a 74 engineer, how does one go about tackling hard enemies in PvE?

My common cycle was open with napalm (assuming I got the drop), switch to EG for poison and slow, switch to rifle for jump/blunderbus/overcharge/net, then I’m at range with a stationary enemy for napalm again. A painfully complicated cycle for only moderate killing power, but it’s the best I ever found…

Edit: Also, I’m pretty sure it’s a 150 radius (300 diameter) circle vs. a 450 line, so the area is probably pretty darn close. And then you add in how often flame jet misses…

Chaba.5410:

Blacklight.2871:

The Engineer’s versatility is NOT rewarded in this game.

So, so true. If I magnet someone into our group in WvWvW, shouldn’t I get a loot baggie too? No, it goes to everyone else around me who put out the damage yet they wouldn’t have had that opportunity if not for my magnet.

Magnet pull glitches aside, Prybar and throw wrench should do plenty enough damage to get you a loot bag. Since you know you’re pulling someone to you, you’ve got no reason to not get at least those two attacks in before your allies drop him.

re: napalm is a kitten to land:

yes it does require skill and timing like all engie combos; try this: fire napalm BEFORE knockback... timing is tricky but you end up throwing your foe IN TO the napalm, and they get hit twice by the shot trail.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

…snip…
But I’m willing to admit that it’s entirely possible I was still playing it wrong. As a 74 engineer, how does one go about tackling hard enemies in PvE?
…snip…

You honestly weren’t wrong at all.

Flamethrower is pretty much a “that’ll do” weapon. It’s not bad simply because with 30 points in Firearms for Juggernaut you get a very high crit rate combined with numerous stacks of Might for Power before you even take gear into consideration. However anyone trying to tell you it “excels” at anything is largely lying to you or doesn’t know better. While the knock back is novel for helping push targets together it doesn’t serve much use. Since the fire field is a wall you have a choice of dropping it on the creature for burning or on your allies for combos in most cases. The melee blind is worthless. In the end the Flame Thrower ain’t going to win any DPS races but if you see someone with one you know they aren’t totally worthless either.

The only spec that does greatly excel is in fact grenades. From a pure damage/time analysis it is higher than the base Flame Thrower. It is also, with the right traits, much more efficient at stacking bleeds than P/P or Elixir Gun. On top of this, it’s constantly applying vulnerability which is a huge boon for not only yourself but everyone. Both Chill and Poison are highly valuable in any dungeon as Chill is amazing in PvE and Poison really helps on any encounters were the target is healing. It even greatly excels at destroying objects to which the Flame Thrower often times will just outright miss even if it should be in the path of the target (see an example like Graveling Mounds in AC Explore where you have to angle yourself perfectly with the Flame Thrower to hit).

The thing is Grenades are terrible to play. The lack of targeted attacks and auto attack makes for horrible game play. I only invested so heavily into trying other options such as P/P, FT and EG because how much I hated playing grenades. Personally I’d probably start playing my Engineer again if they allowed us some sort of option toggle that gave us an auto attack on Grenades like under water. This certainly wouldn’t take away from the main disadvantages of the weapon, namely it’s vulnerability to mobility.

As it stands our best option is also our least fun to play and that’s a shame.

Kodiak.3281:

anyone trying to tell you it "excels" at anything is largely lying to you or doesn’t know better.

FT excels at:

- gold farming in CS
- tanking in dungeons
- spreading conds and distrupting zergs in wvw
- baking
- bbqing
- creating mayhem on points in spvp

I am not lying to you, and I do know better.

also, re: grenades being terrible to play... learn how to lead your shots better.

cheers.

In the early GW1 prophecies game Rangers, Mesmers and Necromancers were considered the “weak” professions. Eventually minion masters came, pet/barrage became a staple and Mesmers were always known as the most OP profession in skilled hands.

It is funny how perception changes so fast once the sheeple realize raw damage isn’t necessarily the most important thing. One youtube video showing a successful all-engi speedrun is all needed to fill gw2lfg.com with “lf2m engis only”.

Some weapon or kit being close to grenade damage doesn’t mean much anyway. Grenade 1-5 will barely hurt a fly, barrage is the kit’s only saving grace damage wise, hence the “100 nades” build is centered around firing two barrages at once.

The secondary effects are pretty good ( vulnerability, chance to bleed, chill, poison ), but you have to spec for the first two of those, further highlighting the major issue with several kits: If you don’t spec for them ( in thise case 30 ! points ), they’re completely useless.

People dont hateengineers, they just dont understand them

blurps.2340:

Some weapon or kit being close to grenade damage doesn’t mean much anyway. Grenade 1-5 will barely hurt a fly, barrage is the kit’s only saving grace damage wise, hence the “100 nades” build is centered around firing two barrages at once.

The secondary effects are pretty good ( vulnerability, chance to bleed, chill, poison ), but you have to spec for the first two of those, further highlighting the major issue with several kits: If you don’t spec for them ( in thise case 30 ! points ), they’re completely useless.

With a con build grenade skills can deal some pretty high damage over time. If you land all three grenades you can get up to 7 stacks of bleed plus fire in a single shrapnel attack that has a 5 second cool down. But ya you have to spec for it.

I have a level 80 Engi and have a great time with it. When attacking foes alongside other players it seems to me that I can often do more damage than they do (using grens). I have berserker gear, so high crit, pow and crit damage, and my damage output is very satisfying. And I love the range!

I have not been refused from teams yet, so I have not experienced this hatred the OP speaks of. Personally I think it is a fun profession to play and can be very effective in the right hands.

nakoda.4213:

FT excels at:

- gold farming in CS
- tanking in dungeons
- spreading conds and distrupting zergs in wvw
- baking
- bbqing
- creating mayhem on points in spvp

I am not lying to you, and I do know better.

also, re: grenades being terrible to play… learn how to lead your shots better.

cheers.

Any class/spec can farm. I can farm as P/P with piercing bullets. Grenades don’t lack here either as getting close isn’t a problem to compensate for the slow flight time of grenades. The only advantage tanking wise is largely 200 Toughness from Juggernaut. The rest is gear and spec that can also be had with Grenades. Personally I run Prec/Tough/Cond armor and Rampager (power/prec/cond jewelry) and spec deep in Elixirs so I’m tanky with either. The WvW one I got a kick out of. I haven’t seen Flamethrowers used in WvW since they got rid of damage through doors.

You can lead your shots all you want and you’re never going to hit me on my Mesmer in 1v1. I have infinite vigor, perma swiftness and a huge amount of mobility. It’s just the nature of the slow projectile and ground targeted nature in a game with lots of mobility. This is okay. If you got something as powerful as grenades, it’s alright when it has a downside. You can compensate but there are scenarios it’s going to naturally be weak in.

The terrible to play aspect comes in the fact that you’re constantly having to ground target your skills: Namely there’s no auto attack. Mashing 1 for an hour or so isn’t too bad. Now do it for 4 hours or so day after day and it gets old pretty fast.

People hate the Engineer for the following. Im now included in this hate for the engineer.

No damage.

Useless skills.

No versatility.

An elite that other professions can get the same utility from regular non-elite skills.

Pointless builds. Tankcat might be fun but not when you can’t contribute due to pathetic damage.

Not good at anything in particular.

And the list goes on. Ive played the Engineer almost exclusively from release and I feel like all that time has been wasted. Makes you either want to reroll or quit the game all together.

I was playing wvw just now and was at the top of a tower shooting my pistol one skill at a guardian. He /laugh and just stood there taking the damage. Pathetic.

Helcor.9527:

People hate the Engineer for the following. Im now included in this hate for the engineer.

No damage.

Useless skills.

No versatility.

How come my engi has cool damage, awesome skills and builds play very different?

Omnio.3652:

How come my engi has cool damage, awesome skills and builds play very different?

Rose Tinted Goggles

Kodiak.3281:

Omnio.3652:

How come my engi has cool damage, awesome skills and builds play very different?

Rose Tinted Goggles

Being able to hold 2v1 (sure they might be just bad) for almost forever (if you don’t miss your skills) or holding 3v1 for long time I think is ok. Boucing enemy forward and backwards is also fun, while he is interupted almost in everything and dies not knowing whats going on. Pistol condition or 100nade build have some damage too, don’t you think. Make a mistake, you die, do it at least almost perfect and your engineer can live long and prosper.

But sure, I’m not rank 40+ or any in any “pro” pvp team. Tho holding point or capturing it if enemy is there, sometimes even two enemies, doesn’t make my class weak imo.

EDIT: And I almost forgot, all that + I’m having tons of fun. Yes, fun is all that matters.

Kodiak.3281:

Omnio.3652:

How come my engi has cool damage, awesome skills and builds play very different?

Rose Tinted Goggles

Man people keep saying Engineer don’t have any damage. Where does that come from?

We do have damage, we have direct damage and condition damage.

This is just a myth, we are very DPS efficient.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Flame Jet Area/damage: Sure, so FT can outdamage grenades if you have 4+ enemies spread out in a line. Against the common 1-2 you get in normal play, this optimal will almost never come up. I played FT/EG stubbornly from 30-70, trawling the forum for play tips and gear advice, then swapped to untalanted grenades, and the utility and damage was still depressingly better. Where I had to at least expend some effort to kill a single elite before, I could now take 2-3.

I cannot comment on how the Flamethrower worked from level 30-70. I used the Bomb Kit like most others because the Grenade Kit and the Flamethrower both require Master-level traits to be competitive options. I’m surprised you said that about the Grenade Kit though, because without Grenadier it’s really not worth using, damage-wise.

But we’re not talking about while leveling; my point was strictly about my experiences at level 80, with exotic Berserkers/Soldiers/Knights armor sets and exotic Ruby/Emerald sets. With the full capacity of trait setups that best complement each kit to the best of their abilities.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Also, napalm is a kitten to actually land.

I assume you mean Flame Blast and not Napalm … and it is, until you get used to it. But are we here to talk about what the easiest build is or what the best build is?

Jarin Arenos.2736:

Control: Grenade’s blind is targetable, where the flamethrower’s will miss if the enemy isn’t sitting on your face. Knockback is nice, but it’s also required because kiting is the primary strategy as things take twice as long to die.

“Twice as long?”

With full Berserker’s and Ruby jewelry, my Flamethrower’s Flame Jet will hit for around 3K. As my Bloodlust/Might stacks build up, it will more consistently go over 4K. If I’m in a group with someone applying Vulnerability, it’s not uncommon to see 5K pop up like that photo I linked above.

While I take seriously the argument that the Grenade Kit’s damage is good—it’s not so good that it doubles that kind of output.

And you’re right; I misread the tool tip. It is radius, not diameter. I apologize. But it is still a larger area of effect.

I leveled engie completely with a ’nades build, switched to ft at 80 because it’s awesome.

the counter that "any class / spec can farm" does not refute that the ft excels at farming, it confirms my claim, a claim that refutes the misinformation that "anyone telling you ft excels at anything is lying or wrong".

the ft excels at many things, just like many engie specs do.

when I leveled warrior, it was gs ftw, but soon as I hit 80 I went banner/warhorn/heals.

every class has potential to excel at a great variety of things, not the least of which is engie.

Kodiak.3281:

Flamethrower is pretty much a “that’ll do” weapon. It’s not bad simply because with 30 points in Firearms for Juggernaut you get a very high crit rate combined with numerous stacks of Might for Power before you even take gear into consideration. However anyone trying to tell you it “excels” at anything is largely lying to you or doesn’t know better.

It certainly excels at being fun.

But you’re right—the Grenade Kit is probably a better offensive option. Thankfully damage isn’t everything in this game. I laugh hysterically at Grenade Kit Engineers in sPvP that get torn apart by my Flamethrower and Rifle.

What people think of us

Nurse.1085

Um, only roll a Ranger if you want be one of the 3 most broken Professions in GW2.
If you want to be “strong” and “wanted” in both PVE and PVP, go with:
-Warrior
-Thief
-Mesmer
-Elementalist
-Guardian
If you want to be a class with a lot of bugs and in desperate need of rebalancing :
-Engineer
-Necromancer
-Ranger
I wouldn’t worry about nerfs, classes like Warrior’s only see buffs. Warrior’s are by far the strongest PVE class right now, next to the always-wanted and loved-by-many Guardians.
Necro’s, Engineers and Rangers have been broken for 6 months now, I wouldn’t expect many buffs to them anytime soon either. I could be wrong though, I hope I am.
Today, 21:13
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Ferum Flamebender.5910:

What people think of us

Correction: what one person thinks of us.

Kardiamond.6952:

Man people keep saying Engineer don’t have any damage. Where does that come from?

We do have damage, we have direct damage and condition damage.

This is just a myth, we are very DPS efficient.

The thing is you have to remember that the game is actually quite diverse at what you do in game. Half the people in the last few posts have concentrated on SPvP and why grenades are terrible for it. People such as myself focus more on the WvW game play (which itself has the “solo roamers” and “team play” elements) and Dungeon game play which no other spec really compares to the efficiency of grenades.

As to why people complain about the DPS you got people who just hear it’s bad and parrot that its bad and you got people like me with multiple 80s to compare the class to and recognize, by comparison, the kind of state it’s actually in. People go on about “5k Flamethrower hits!” without acquiescing to the point it’s a 2.5s cast time in which with my Elementalist could attack 4.5 times each capable of doing 2k damage on crit (maximum of 8k total).

Now are 5k Flamethrower hits bad? No. It’s pretty decent when you compare it to other classes. However in a game where you start comparing everyone to each other the Engineer (along with other classes) quickly falls by the wayside. In fact, any class that can’t bring their own high DPS as well as other measures to increase the DPS of their allies (basically warriors and mesmers) tends to fall flat depending on how elitist you want to be with your group.

Kodiak.3281:

People go on about “5k Flamethrower hits!” without acquiescing to the point it’s a 2.5s cast time in which with my Elementalist could attack 4.5 times each capable of doing 2k damage on crit (maximum of 8k total).

What skill would this be?

And I believe I illustrated already that it’s 10 hits over 2 seconds. I’m not ignoring anything.

Phineas Poe.3018:

But we’re not talking about while leveling; my point was strictly about my experiences at level 80, with exotic Berserkers/Soldiers/Knights armor sets and exotic Ruby/Emerald sets. With the full capacity of trait setups that best complement each kit to the best of their abilities.

Right here it’s fairly obvious we’re playing different games (not literally, but in effect). Even my warrior doesn’t have full exotics yet (the character that coasted to 80, half-asleep). I don’t really put that kind of time into the game (highly distractable) and I enjoy playing different characters.

I’m glad that engineer can be functional in certain areas (spvp) in certain builds (bunker, control FT) with certain gear (full properly-statted exotics). The argument that keeps coming up though, is a comparative one. Engineers have to work twice as hard to get the same effect as the multiple better classes. Maybe three times with flamethrower. That the skill-cap for the class is high enough that our absolute best players can be well better than the average players for other classes is also good news. But you shouldn’t have to be amazing just to be functional. I didn’t see a “HARD MODE SELECTED” warning when I picked engineer. Do I just suck? Maybe. But in that case, my warrior, guardian, thief and elementalist should be having problems too (granted my mesmer has issues, so maybe it’s just incompatible play-style?).

Phineas Poe.3018:

What skill would this be?

And I believe I illustrated already that it’s 10 hits over 2 seconds. I’m not ignoring anything.

Lightning Whip. It attacks twice every 1 second. Here’s a thread with some example numbers in it:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Dungeon-dps-build/first

But, you know, whoopity doo…5k Flamethrower!

Kodiak.3281:

But, you know, whoopity doo…5k Flamethrower!

That was unnecessary. I’ve never come off here that our damage output is the best in the game. I’m just annoyed by people continuously arguing that our damage is worthless when it is, in fact, not.

One extra detail you’re really neglecting to mention here is that Lightning Whip only has a range of 300 to Flame Jet’s 450. It can also only hit a maximum of three targets; Flame Jet doesn’t discriminate.

Is a D/D Elementalist going to do more damage than me? Yeah, maybe. Are they as good at condition removal as Engineers are? Uh, no, they are not. Are they as good at control as Engineers are? Uh, no, they are not. Are they as survivable as Engineers are?

Uh, no, they are not.

Jarin Arenos.2736:

I’m glad that engineer can be functional in certain areas (spvp) in certain builds (bunker, control FT) with certain gear (full properly-statted exotics).

Maybe you misunderstood me, but I use the FT/EG build in every area of the game.

The learning curve for the Engineer is definitely harder than a Guardian or Warrior. But the skill ceiling similarly is far higher.

Phineas Poe.3018:

One extra detail you’re really neglecting to mention here is that Lightning Whip only has a range of 300 to Flame Jet’s 450. It can also only hit a maximum of three targets; Flame Jet doesn’t discriminate.

actually it does discriminate, and I was put in my place the other day with this correction. tested it later to confirm, but FT#1 indeed only hits a max three targets per tick.

(although, the rest of the naysaying I endured is still moot because the damage is additive, not multiplicative, so whether tick 3 hits mobs ABC or XYZ and tick 4 hits mobs DXF or EBW doesnt matter, the ticks still hits for the same amount, so there is no DPS "loss" when sweeping through a group as the others were trying to claim)

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

What people think of us

Nurse.1085

Um, only roll a Ranger if you want be one of the 3 most broken Professions in GW2.
If you want to be “strong” and “wanted” in both PVE and PVP, go with:
-Warrior
-Thief
-Mesmer
-Elementalist
-Guardian
If you want to be a class with a lot of bugs and in desperate need of rebalancing :
-Engineer
-Necromancer
-Ranger
I wouldn’t worry about nerfs, classes like Warrior’s only see buffs. Warrior’s are by far the strongest PVE class right now, next to the always-wanted and loved-by-many Guardians.
Necro’s, Engineers and Rangers have been broken for 6 months now, I wouldn’t expect many buffs to them anytime soon either. I could be wrong though, I hope I am.
Today, 21:13
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Uhm no. This was just one of the 6 reactions I saw in the guild wars 2 discussion subforum. Here’s the link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Returning-Player-debating-class/first#post1484289

Fortunately some people are defending us.

I was fighting a champion abomination yesterday with two other players, all ranged. Two of us were medium armour (me as engi and the other as ranger). My higher damage drew the champ on me the entire encounter. The other two went down due to his charge attack, which got me a couple of times as well. Overall I was surviving longer and dealing more damage than the other players and I was the last to go down in the end. In fact I had been running circles around this champ, and other spawns, trying to slowly res one of the downed rangers a bit at a time, for a quite a while before I slipped up and got hit by its charge.

Engineers can deal good damage and can be versatile. I was switching kits mid fight providing control, conditions, boons and a little healing. When we gained adds I could switch to grens and keep them under control. And I haven’t even got my full set up yet as I am running on rampagers gear with a build suited for berserker gear.

If you are struggling with the engineer it is either because it just doesn’t suit your playstyle, or you haven’t found a build that suits you, or you haven’t got an optimum gear set up. Stats from gear, traits and your playstyle must all gel together to be efficient with some professions, and the engineer is one of those professions.

Phineas Poe.3018:

One extra detail you’re really neglecting to mention here is that Lightning Whip only has a range of 300 to Flame Jet’s 450. It can also only hit a maximum of three targets; Flame Jet doesn’t discriminate.

Is a D/D Elementalist going to do more damage than me? Yeah, maybe. Are they as good at condition removal as Engineers are? Uh, no, they are not. Are they as good at control as Engineers are? Uh, no, they are not. Are they as survivable as Engineers are?

Uh, no, they are not.

First of all, you’re woefully misinformed. Flamethrower only hits 3 targets. You can easily test this by going to the targeting dummies in LA in the back and using their primary on what should hit 5-6 targets and it’ll always only hit 3. The only time when this changes is when mobs move around and/or your target changes. As with any channeled ability it will primarily hit your target so if you spam tab to switch targets, and they are in the base range, it will hit the new target for the separate tick.

The only base Engineer damage capability of hitting more than 3 targets, and to my knowledge one of the very few actually in game, is Pistol’s explosive Shot with Coated Bullets equipped. It has basically unlimited damage potential as each shot will pierce a target, explode to targets around it, then continue on to pierce another for another explosion. However this literally requires the sun and moon to align in most cases to take full advantage of (such as COF Path 2’s Assassin Event with unlimited mobs and some Orr Events). This is also why it’s base damage is so horrendously weak to the point it’s arguably unusable (because it was so popular back in beta).

You’re also horribly misinformed about a D/D Ele. Since most D/D spec’s go so deep in the Water tree (20-30 points) there’s a lot of condition removal to be had (around 3-6 of which 3 are AOE). With D/D I have multiple Chills, Weakness, Reactive Stun, Knockback, Immobilize and Knockdown. That’s a lot. Half the time I sneak in Magic Find Gear on in dungeons and I am no worse for wear when it comes to survivability. I will admit that straight up I probably couldn’t just take the hits like my Engineer can, but a lot of that comes down to gearing and when I gear similar to my Engineer (high tough) I can take the hits just the same. It’s for all these reasons, and much more, why Devs are keeping an eye on the build to see if it needs to be nerfed cause it’s that kitten good.

Rin.1046:

I was fighting a champion abomination yesterday with two other players, all ranged. Two of us were medium armour (me as engi and the other as ranger). My higher damage drew the champ on me the entire encounter. The other two went down due to his charge attack, which got me a couple of times as well. Overall I was surviving longer and dealing more damage than the other players and I was the last to go down in the end. In fact I had been running circles around this champ, and other spawns, trying to slowly res one of the downed rangers a bit at a time, for a quite a while before I slipped up and got hit by its charge.

You realize that dealing damage is only a small portion of aggro mechanics in this game right? You should probably read up:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Kodiak.3281:

Rin.1046:

I was fighting a champion abomination yesterday with two other players, all ranged. Two of us were medium armour (me as engi and the other as ranger). My higher damage drew the champ on me the entire encounter. The other two went down due to his charge attack, which got me a couple of times as well. Overall I was surviving longer and dealing more damage than the other players and I was the last to go down in the end. In fact I had been running circles around this champ, and other spawns, trying to slowly res one of the downed rangers a bit at a time, for a quite a while before I slipped up and got hit by its charge.

You realize that dealing damage is only a small portion of aggro mechanics in this game right? You should probably read up:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

I do realise that yes, so no need for me to re-read up thanks. As I was not the one who initiated combat on the champion and was moving constantly, so was never nearer or further from it than other players for any long amount of time, the only factors that would account for my agro would be damage output or toughness (of which I have none). So, eiher it was picking on me because I had no toughness, which is testiment to the engineer’s capability to survive without it, or I was doing more damage, dismissing the idea that engi’s lack dps.

This example aside though, I am very satisfied with my damage output as an engi and once I get full berserker gear for him I will be even happier.

Pizza.2346:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Engineers are way more than their Grenade Kit. I’ve been using the FT/EG build for months, and my damage output is just fine.

I’ve been using the Grenade build for months, and my damage output is much higher.

0.5s grenade VS 2.25s flame jet

I’m sure it is. With Rampager’s gear, with the Bleed stacking on top of spamming the #1 skill the Grenade Kit will outdamage the Flamethrower. I don’t recall ever arguing otherwise.

nakoda.4213:

actually it does discriminate, and I was put in my place the other day with this correction. tested it later to confirm, but FT#1 indeed only hits a max three targets per tick.

Fair enough; I guess my eyes have deceived me.

Kodiak.3281:

You’re also horribly misinformed about a D/D Ele. Since most D/D spec’s go so deep in the Water tree (20-30 points) there’s a lot of condition removal to be had (around 3-6 of which 3 are AOE).

Cleansing Wave also has an untraited 40-second cooldown. You toss around how many you have, but the fact of the matter is that Kit Refinement + Elixir Gun is arguably the best sustained condition removal in the entire game.

What matters is here is that you have to switch attunements to remove conditions. I can swap to the Elixir Gun in the middle of a Flame Jet attack and proc Super Elixir through Kit Refinement. I can lay down a Light field without dropping an inch of my DPS.

Can you do that with your Elementalist? Gee, no. You can’t. Enjoy that attunement swap cooldown. I can swap to the EG and Med Kit as needed to drop Light fields and buffs and swap back to the FT before the 2-second attack is even over.

Kodiak.3281:

when I gear similar to my Engineer (high tough) I can take the hits just the same

Except the Elementalist wears light armor and has the lowest tier health pool. You can wear P/V/T gear with Emerald jewelry on your Elementalist and pretend that you’re as survivable as the Engineer is, but the numbers don’t lie; you’re not.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Except the Elementalist wears light armor and has the lowest tier health pool. You can wear P/V/T gear with Emerald jewelry on your Elementalist and pretend that you’re as survivable as the Engineer is, but the numbers don’t lie; you’re not.

No, he is. Bunker eles are way tankier than bunker engis because of their great heals, it’s just a fact of the game right now.

Don’t worry though, that may not be the case in a week. Bunker eles have Nerfs incoming

EDIT: Forgot to say that bunker eles don’t have to be D/D. Some of us wan’t to be a great team support with staff. That’s what I wanted out of my engi, but couldn’t figure one out, all everyone tells you to do is “run elixir gun noob” because they think that measly little heal will do any good against a champ.

Rin.1046:

Kodiak.3281:

Rin.1046:

I was fighting a champion abomination yesterday with two other players, all ranged. Two of us were medium armour (me as engi and the other as ranger). My higher damage drew the champ on me the entire encounter. The other two went down due to his charge attack, which got me a couple of times as well. Overall I was surviving longer and dealing more damage than the other players and I was the last to go down in the end. In fact I had been running circles around this champ, and other spawns, trying to slowly res one of the downed rangers a bit at a time, for a quite a while before I slipped up and got hit by its charge.

You realize that dealing damage is only a small portion of aggro mechanics in this game right? You should probably read up:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

I do realise that yes, so no need for me to re-read up thanks. As I was not the one who initiated combat on the champion and was moving constantly, so was never nearer or further from it than other players for any long amount of time, the only factors that would account for my agro would be damage output or toughness (of which I have none). So, eiher it was picking on me because I had no toughness, which is testiment to the engineer’s capability to survive without it, or I was doing more damage, dismissing the idea that engi’s lack dps.

This example aside though, I am very satisfied with my damage output as an engi and once I get full berserker gear for him I will be even happier.

If this was the Caer Shadowfain event that mob locks on 1 target at random and will not switch till player is downed then switches to another.

They hate us because they are jealous. We get grenades, bombs, flamethrowers, and prybars while they get dinky swords and magic sticks.

Moddo.7105:

If this was the Caer Shadowfain event that mob locks on 1 target at random and will not switch till player is downed then switches to another.

No, this was a champ abomination a little west of Xenarius Bayt and I went down at least once while the other two were still running around attacking it, at which point it would switch target. But as soon as I was up and laying down my grens on his head again he would come back at me.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Cleansing Wave also has an untraited 40-second cooldown. You toss around how many you have, but the fact of the matter is that Kit Refinement + Elixir Gun is arguably the best sustained condition removal in the entire game.

What matters is here is that you have to switch attunements to remove conditions. I can swap to the Elixir Gun in the middle of a Flame Jet attack and proc Super Elixir through Kit Refinement. I can lay down a Light field without dropping an inch of my DPS.

Can you do that with your Elementalist? Gee, no. You can’t. Enjoy that attunement swap cooldown. I can swap to the EG and Med Kit as needed to drop Light fields and buffs and swap back to the FT before the 2-second attack is even over.

You really shouldn’t speak about things you don’t know about.

Criticizing swapping attunements on a D/D Elementalist is like criticizing water for being wet. It’s what it was designed to do and the way D/D plays. I can easily change to water mid Churning Earth and gain Frost Aura, clear off 2 conditions, add regen, and AOE heal everyone around me and immediately swap right into Air before done channeling the Churning Earth.

The biggest advantage Eles have, when going for condition removal, is Cleansing Water. Any source of regen suddenly becomes a condition removal. That includes the Regen gained from Soothing Disruption which then turns any Cantrip ability into condition removal without having to swap attunements (where the ‘6’ number comes from one of which will remove four separate conditions).

Are you really going to try to compare combo fields with the Elementalist? You’re trying too hard.

The reality is that most dungeons and events in this game don’t even require that much condition removal. Most cases I don’t even bother specing into Cleansing Water because it’s a colossal waste for me and the group. I’d much rather share Auras and give out permanent Fury and Swiftness to my group instead on top of the 12-25 stacks of Might I’m almost giving them. Who really cares if you can remove 100 conditions when you only ever suffer from 1-2 tops?

Kodiak.3281:

Except the Elementalist wears light armor and has the lowest tier health pool. You can wear P/V/T gear with Emerald jewelry on your Elementalist and pretend that you’re as survivable as the Engineer is, but the numbers don’t lie; you’re not.

And yet I don’t die or get downed in Magic Find or Berserker gear let alone PVT gear and Knight accessories. This is because Water Eles are all based on a lot of little things all adding up and coming together for a powerful package.

The problem you seem to be having is simple math. You only need enough defense to survive your encounters and allow yourself to do your maximum damage. Anything more is a waste and is worthless. Like condition removal, it doesn’t matter if you can take 100 hits if you only ever take 1-2 hits.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme. Maybe this is why Engineers are regarded so poorly: people are wasting time focusing on things that aren’t necessary or needed.

JohnDied.3476:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Except the Elementalist wears light armor and has the lowest tier health pool. You can wear P/V/T gear with Emerald jewelry on your Elementalist and pretend that you’re as survivable as the Engineer is, but the numbers don’t lie; you’re not.

No, he is. Bunker eles are way tankier than bunker engis because of their great heals, it’s just a fact of the game right now.

Don’t worry though, that may not be the case in a week. Bunker eles have Nerfs incoming

EDIT: Forgot to say that bunker eles don’t have to be D/D. Some of us wan’t to be a great team support with staff. That’s what I wanted out of my engi, but couldn’t figure one out, all everyone tells you to do is “run elixir gun noob” because they think that measly little heal will do any good against a champ.

We’ll see. As the Devs even stated, there’s really no one single ability or trait the Ele has that’s overpowered as a whole for defense but rather it’s a large combination of tiny elements that all add up (such as swapping to water attunement and immediately getting a heal, removing a condition, gaining a regen that also removes a condition).

However in that same interview they also mentioned rather than necessarily nerf it they were looking at possibly adding in better counters instead and seeing if it’s really overpowered or if there’s just a lack of counters.

What decision they end up going with they haven’t really said. Could nerf D/D or could buff other builds. Could do a combination. Guess we’ll find out more soon

I just found out a new reason to hate. Fast acting elixirs doesn’t affect thrown elixirs or the elixir gun. I kind of understand the gun but thrown? So lame.

Kodiak.3281:

I can easily change to water mid Churning Earth and gain Frost Aura, clear off 2 conditions, add regen, and AOE heal everyone around me and immediately swap right into Air before done channeling the Churning Earth.

Yet you can’t switch from Air to Water back to Air as easily as I can switch from the Flamethrower to the Elixir Gun back to the Flamethrower—which was my point.

Saying you can switch from Earth to Water to Air easily is pretty deceptive and not what we were talking about.

Kodiak.3281:

The reality is that most dungeons and events in this game don’t even require that much condition removal. Most cases I don’t even bother specing into Cleansing Water because it’s a colossal waste for me and the group. I’d much rather share Auras and give out permanent Fury and Swiftness to my group instead on top of the 12-25 stacks of Might I’m almost giving them. Who really cares if you can remove 100 conditions when you only ever suffer from 1-2 tops?

This is kind of a stupid rebuttal. You’re basically deflecting the fact that the Engineer can sustain Super Elixir 100% of the time VERY EASILY, offering condition removal whenever anyone needs it. At any time.

Who cares if it’s “too much?” The point is that we can do it.

As for your Fury, Swiftness, and Might: Cool story bro. Too bad I can sustain 100% Vigor, Might, Swiftness, and Fury by myself through traits, Drop Stimulant, and Rune of Altruism.

Lantz.7240:

I just found out a new reason to hate. Fast acting elixirs doesn’t affect thrown elixirs or the elixir gun. I kind of understand the gun but thrown? So lame.

Because then we’d have 2 methods of reducing some skill cooldowns. Nobody should be allowed to do that. Except mesmers.

There are a lot of legitimate complaints in this thread, but I think they are being overshadowed by the sheer amount of illegitimate complaints. I usually dislike being so severe and combative in forum discussion, but this is getting a little ridiculous.

First and foremost, we do deal damage. We have in my opinion the best condi-dmg in the game. No we can’t stack bleeds higher then some other classes (and yet, given the right build in PvE we can max the bleed cap anyway), but we are the only class that comes loaded with all four damaging conditions and can use them reliably. We have the best condi-burst in the game as well. When it comes to direct damage, are we on top? No, but we are a whole lot closer then people seem to think. Warriors beat everyone in PvE damage, and given the right build we are actually rather close to what they can do. 100 Nades is plenty competitive, and although overshadowed by a Thief in my opinion it brings a plethora of differing things and is a lot closer in competitiveness then seems to be played out here.

We have a lot of decent builds. Are they all competitive? No, but this is similar problem for all classes. Heck all classes need a major gunk cleaning. The Engineer is in the same boat as many. There is obviously stuff that needs to be cleaned up, buffed, and/or changed in some fashion. We don’t need a major overhaul.

Many of you have cited very good reasons people hate on the Engineer. However when it comes to damage, it’s merely perception and not actuality. 100 Nades, Condi-Burst, and many other variants are competitive in sPvP. In WvW food can give us an even greater advantage. Solo PvE we are probably the strongest period, because we can solo mobs without Defiant without a problem and we have one of best capabilities in tagging mobs in zerg PvE. In Dungeons we aren’t the best, but the amount of exaggeration when it comes out of it is excessive. It’s not all Warriors, or even Mesmers and Guardians, it usually comes down to players and gear. I can get through CoF path one speedruns with negligible differences in speed (mere seconds).

Why do people hate the Engineer? It’s perception. The perception that we are weak when we aren’t nearly as weak as people seem to think. We have some legitimate issues, but most of those issues are being overshadowed slightly by something else which is a problem many of the classes have. It’s not nearly as bad as this thread seems to proclaim.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Yet you can’t switch from Air to Water back to Air as easily as I can switch from the Flamethrower to the Elixir Gun back to the Flamethrower—which was my point.

Saying you can switch from Earth to Water to Air easily is pretty deceptive and not what we were talking about.

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about on D/D game play. You wouldn’t swap from Air to Water to Air even if you could. Playing D/D is all about rotating skill combos and timers. Air is the default skill you go to when your other power combos (such as Dragonbreath -> Firegrab or the Ring of Fire series) are down but you certainly should never be just sitting in Air the entire time doing DPS. It’s actually the default lower DPS compared to the rest of what we do. Churning Earth alone can deal 9-11k. You also never just sit on Water because Frost Aura is a powerful offensive and defensive cool down.

Phineas Poe.3018:

This is kind of a stupid rebuttal. You’re basically deflecting the fact that the Engineer can sustain Super Elixir 100% of the time VERY EASILY, offering condition removal whenever anyone needs it. At any time.

Who cares if it’s “too much?” The point is that we can do it.

As for your Fury, Swiftness, and Might: Cool story bro. Too bad I can sustain 100% Vigor, Might, Swiftness, and Fury by myself through traits, Drop Stimulant, and Rune of Altruism.

The point is you should be using a higher DPS spec such as Grenades (which are superior physical damage as well as condition damage) because having a permanent Super Elixir is unnecessary. No one will ever need it.

This is where we come back to the point of this thread and why people hate on the Engineer. Neat, you can Super Elixir on a 20 second cool down while doing DPS or keep it up full time if you swap and cast. You’re just doing reduced damage potential to have something no one actually needs. They need/want your damage, not healing.

As for boons: Fascinating story chap. I can do all that AND give them to others (except for vigor). I also strongly doubt you can reach 25 might stacks by yourself without HGH which with 2/3 of your utility going to kits I strongly doubt it (I usually reach around 12-15 with boon duration and HGH with a Flamethrower and that’s with 3 elixirs total). Feel free to post a build and video if I’m wrong.

Why do people hate engineers? They just refuse to see how bad off they really are.

Kodiak.3281:

snipsnipsnip

Now hold up – I’m not going to even pretend for a moment engineers are good at boon sharing (they’re the worst in the game at it, bar what I’m about to say), but they can easily crank out 12 might stacks while putting out some serious condition damage (read: there’s also access to static shot and concussion bomb, but I don’t like confusion in PvE). I’ve already tested and got screenshots up in other threads of maintaining 25 bleed stacks purely off grenade kits. This includes poison, perma-burning (3 second duration, 3 second cooldown), excessive amounts of vulnerability, and no pizza. Is this cool as heck? Yeah, it is. I won’t use it though until they do something about the bleed cap, because right now it prohibits builds like the one I’m suggesting, and burning would have to wait 20 seconds for the guardian’s party-wide application before mine starts to ring out.

But, yeah, the point I was making is that it’s easy for an engineer to crank out those might stacks in such a build – while I only require the one utility slot to deal most of my damage, it frees up the others for some combos. Bomb kit = fire field + 1 blast finisher, Healing Turret and [Rifle Turret / Throw Mine] = 2 more blast finishers, and the shield’s 4 = a 4th blast finisher. 12 stacks of might, 30 second cooldown, 22 second duration (10 points in alchemy ‘cause.. I didn’t know where else to put them given it’s a condition build!). Yeah, it’s hard to compete with an ele’s aura perma fury, and I do enjoy having one ele on my team to share it. But in all fairness one warrior can crank out almost 90 seconds worth of fury between Battle Standard and FGJ. I’ll actually run this condi-nades build once they make conditions viable in PvE.

tl;dr Engineer can do suitable damage and maintain 12 stacks of party-wide might with 66% uptime. I know other classes can do it better, but not maintain that kind of damage (not with the way their traits end up landing).

This thread went from why people don’t like Engineers to why Engineer’s don’t like Elementalist.