Guild Wars 2

finally improved dmg on turrets and more what do you guys think? im doing a dungeon right now to test out some of the differences

i think i live in cosmos.

wat update ? you mean this update that nerfed engi? ahh ok.

nothing to do here.

wait what? they patched it today?

I think it’s hypothetical. If there was a patch.

OR, he hasn’t been online for a long while and think the patch was the day he logged back in. O.o

Wuffles.5319:

I think it’s hypothetical. If there was a patch.

OR, he hasn’t been online for a long while and think the patch was the day he logged back in. O.o

Pretty sure its the latter!

Thumper Turret skill:
Damage from base attacks increased by 66%.
Base attacks now cripple for 3 seconds.
Self-destructs after 5 minutes.
Shockwave skill:
Increased damage by 66%.
Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 45 seconds.
Rifle Turret skill: Increased damage from this turret’s base and overcharged attacks by 50%.
Surprise Shot skill: Increased damage by 50%.
Rocket Turret skill: Reduced recharge from 60 seconds to 50 seconds.
Net Turret skill: Increased turret’s health by 25%.
Net Attack skill: Reduced cooldown from 60 seconds to 45 seconds.
Flame Turret skill:
Reduced recharge from 40 seconds to 25 seconds.
Increased main attack’s arc from 30 degrees to 60 degrees.
Throw Napalm skill: Reduced cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
Flame Blast skill:
No longer double-detonates when the projectile exp
ires naturally.
Turns off Detonate after the flame blast ball is gone.

they bumped the dmg up for turrets and reduced cd how is that nerfed ? im not being sarcastic explain it to like im kitten /p>

These are patch notes from the March 26th update.

regardless of the confusion around the date of the patch, the question still remains…

with all the buffs we got, why do people think we were nerfed this last patch?

because they fixed a broken trait and kitten off everyone taking advantage of a known problem?

^ I just miss my Double super elixer for condition cleanse XD

It was a nerf because it removed viable yet not OP builds. Double Super Elixir and the flame cleanse on FT were big hits on our condition removal capabilities. Now we have to run elixirs if we want condition removal. That’s a really big nerf, and KR wasn’t OP or broken at all, the only skill with problems was the second grenade barrage.

viable but not OP in whose opinion? ours? cuz that’s not biased…

Yeah… I don’t remember anyone calling the kit refinement super elixir OP since the lost shores patch. The only thing we complained about was how much better the double SEs were when they were bugged.

Now it seems like a lot people agree that it was too good. Which is kind of funny considering I replaced it with speedy kits (great with invigorating speed) as soon as it was fixed.

All in all, I think that the kit refinement SE was holding things back. They couldn’t keep buffing SE because of kit refinement, and the way it before last patch was not so great without KR. Its just one more kit that doesn’t need to depend on traits to be decent.

Agreed. Maybe now they can make the elixir skills on EG work with our elixir traits.

GuilguiS.2738:

Agreed. Maybe now they can make the elixir skills on EG work with our elixir traits.

I would <3 that change.

JohnDied.3476:

Yeah… I don’t remember anyone calling the kit refinement super elixir OP since the lost shores patch. The only thing we complained about was how much better the double SEs were when they were bugged.

Now it seems like a lot people agree that it was too good. Which is kind of funny considering I replaced it with speedy kits (great with invigorating speed) as soon as it was fixed.

All in all, I think that the kit refinement SE was holding things back. They couldn’t keep buffing SE because of kit refinement, and the way it before last patch was not so great without KR. Its just one more kit that doesn’t need to depend on traits to be decent.

Plenty of people whined that KR was op, primarily because of 100nades. That aside, I don’t recall anyone ever calling engineers overpowered for anything.

It’s an interesting theory that they might have felt the need to ‘hold back’ on SE, but I don’t think it holds up. They buffed it just before removing the double pop from KR.

Personally, I don’t think they’ll ever do anything much further to SE, as engineer already has plenty of other party support, other than direct healing. (This is their reasoning I believe, not mine.)

nakoda.4213:

regardless of the confusion around the date of the patch, the question still remains…

with all the buffs we got, why do people think we were nerfed this last patch?

because they fixed a broken trait and kitten off everyone taking advantage of a known problem?

Because they buffed Turrets, which almost no one used, so that was pointless. The buffs were also not what was needed with Turrets. Who still die in a stiff breeze, now have a time limit, still deal weaksauce damage, cannot be brought with you without incurring long cooldowns, still target random enemies (even enemies it actually cannot hit) including ninjapulling more enemies into the fight.
Need i go on? A few dmg tweaks here and there wont fix these glaring problems that Turrets have.

Then lets see, what else. Ah yes, minor bugfixes, mostly just minor bugfixes. Some for better, some for worst.
And then they went ahead and gutted Kit Refinement, and essentially removing the Engineer version of the instagib-build. Love it or hate it, every profession has a build like that and only the Engineer had his litterally removed. Not nerfed, no, actually removed.

And some minor buffs around, that in no way, shape or form actually do anything to the pitifull status engineer is in.

So what, we need to sit here and cheer that the turret i never use now does 10% more dmg to a target i dont want it to attack?

Terrahero.9358:

[…]
So what, we need to sit here and cheer that the turret i never use now does 10% more dmg to a target i dont want it to attack?

This.

Not that I am an unhappy engineer. I just don’t get the turret buffs from the last patch. Or maybe I don’t get the turrets in this game.

fiftypercentgrey.7108:

Terrahero.9358:

[…]
So what, we need to sit here and cheer that the turret i never use now does 10% more dmg to a target i dont want it to attack?

This.

Not that I am an unhappy engineer. I just don’t get the turret buffs from the last patch. Or maybe I don’t get the turrets in this game.

Everyone is (was) upset. Personally i had expected to play engineers using turrets & gadgets. that’s what i thought at launch, BUT at the end. We, engineer’s turned out to be army drop outs working as plumbers with a weird fetish for magical potions (elixirs).

Really tho, what annoyed the most is how much boosting they had. “we’re holding engineer’s turrets only meeting” , “we have lots of patch notes”, “we’ll add more utility” etc.. and it turns out 90% nerfs were negative.

google.3709:

.. and it turns out 90% nerfs were negative.

aren’t all nerfs negative?

the patch notes were, by and large, a positive thing for the community.

look at all the posts by new people asking questions.
look at all the builds being discussed that don’t require KR to work.
- (you may not like it, but this is a good thing)
look at all the discussion on turrets.
look at all the new flamethrower threads.
look at all the new “omg engi condi so op” discussion.
look at all the “shh don’t talk about it or we get nerfed” discussion.

you all harp about lack of dev vision or whatever, but i swear that not one of you knows what you want or how to make it yourself. so until you do, try to keep some perspective.

the March patch fixed a lot of broken aspects of our profession. it nerfed a whopping one build and two over used and broken special effects while buffing the other 80% of our profession.

Stop being selfish. You are not the only ones who play engineer.

It was a nerf. They nerfed things people actually used and buffed things nobody used and still don’t use.

it was a nerf

no, it nerfed one trait that a bunch of people used which fixed an exploit they all knowingly took advantage of and ought to have expected a nerf for, resulting the net loss of two on swap proc effects and one over powered glitch build.

everyone else in the profession got buffed.

eighty-twenty rule ….

we got eighty percent buffs, suck it up.

nakoda.4213:

no, it nerfed one trait that a bunch of people used which fixed an exploit they all knowingly took advantage of and ought to have expected a nerf for, resulting the net loss of two on swap proc effects and one over powered glitch build.

everyone else in the profession got buffed.

eighty-twenty rule ….

we got eighty percent buffs, suck it up.

Are you referring to Kit Refinement and 100Nades? That wasn’t a exploit…

double grenade barrage pop, double elixir pop, and double flame blast pop. granted, they may have only been “hand in the cookie jar” exploits, and not the “stole five hundred billion in gold after crashing two planes into a high rise” kind of exploit, but they were exploits nonetheless.

nakoda.4213:

double elixir pop and double flame blast pop. granted, they may have only been “hand in the cookie jar” exploits, and not the “stole five hundred billion in gold after crashing two planes into a high rise” kind of exploit.

Ah, okay. Yeah, those were bugs indeed.

I see lots of Engis in pvp lately. I decided to shelf my Warrior and try out Engineer. I wish I had done it sooner because Warrior is frustrating to play, and Engi is very rewarding.

nakoda.4213:

double grenade barrage pop, double elixir pop, and double flame blast pop. granted, they may have only been “hand in the cookie jar” exploits, and not the “stole five hundred billion in gold after crashing two planes into a high rise” kind of exploit, but they were exploits nonetheless.

I wouldn’t go as far to call them exploits!
Just very bad design decisions. Its hard to tell anyone not to take advantage of something that seems to be working but just might be suffering from poor balance.

Like Thieves taking advantage of culling. Anet applied the culling and a side effect was stealthed players got a few extra seconds of invisibility, which you cannot blame the players for. But what those players did was specifically design builds to take advantage of the culling so they could remain unseen permanently.
So you could say they were exploiting but Imo its closer to what you previously said that they were just taking advantage of something. (bad design decision.)

Otherwise right now whole servers are exploiting in WvW by running in zergs of 50+ ,so that when they attack you receive such a huge lag spike you end up insta downing before you can even get your heal skill to activate.

Summary of the 29 March patch:

Who benefited significantly?

• Elixir/condition (giver’s weapons now work and RNG on elixirs reduced)

Who lost out significantly:

• 100nades (build removed)
• KR multi-kit builds (major reduction to survivability)

Buffs that have had little impact:

• Turrets

What’s happened: Elixir users are happy; 100nades users no longer exist; the few turret users liked it but their numbers haven’t increased significantly; major migration from other Eng builds to Elixir based ones.

Overall the patch turned Engs into an elixir based condition class with a common play style. If that’s what you like, the patch was great. If not, other Eng builds can be made to work, but you’ll have to work very hard to achieve that as the popular but only marginally effective KR based builds were heavily nerfed.

How do you quantify impact? I see far more turrets in pvp (where one would expect to see them) than I did pre-patch, myself included.

the turret buffs were an improvement, you cannot simply negate them just because you don’t use them

Halcyon.7352:

JohnDied.3476:

Yeah… I don’t remember anyone calling the kit refinement super elixir OP since the lost shores patch. The only thing we complained about was how much better the double SEs were when they were bugged.

Now it seems like a lot people agree that it was too good. Which is kind of funny considering I replaced it with speedy kits (great with invigorating speed) as soon as it was fixed.

All in all, I think that the kit refinement SE was holding things back. They couldn’t keep buffing SE because of kit refinement, and the way it before last patch was not so great without KR. Its just one more kit that doesn’t need to depend on traits to be decent.

Plenty of people whined that KR was op, primarily because of 100nades. That aside, I don’t recall anyone ever calling engineers overpowered for anything.

It’s an interesting theory that they might have felt the need to ‘hold back’ on SE, but I don’t think it holds up. They buffed it just before removing the double pop from KR.

Personally, I don’t think they’ll ever do anything much further to SE, as engineer already has plenty of other party support, other than direct healing. (This is their reasoning I believe, not mine.)

Ahem…

In any case, that “double pop” was only ever good for babysitting in dungeons and removing conditions. A good single burst heal is all you need every once in a while, if someone were willing to stay in a spot for 10 seconds to enjoy 100% uptime SE then I’d rather not party with them because they’d need near constant rezzing.

Also, while I personally don’t agree with the new KR, I have to say that it looks better than the old one. Its a shame that the global cooldown completely ruined it.

I logged onto my engineer for the first time since the the patch who’s name must not be spoken…

..and I tried to build something useful.

First I tried to make a grenade build, but the damage kinda sucks, and targeting is a nightmare, and not having super elixir on KR is horrible.

So then it’s like, I’ll try turrets, but I need a kit for run speed, and I need elixir S for well.. everything! and that leaves me with one turret.. ]

One turret for a turret build…

…and then I thought “why do I torture myself with this crap,” and logged off.

Ezeriel.9574:

I logged onto my engineer for the first time since the the patch who’s name must not be spoken…

..and I tried to build something useful.

First I tried to make a grenade build, but the damage kinda sucks, and targeting is a nightmare, and not having super elixir on KR is horrible.

So then it’s like, I’ll try turrets, but I need a kit for run speed, and I need elixir S for well.. everything! and that leaves me with one turret.. ]

One turret for a turret build…

…and then I thought “why do I torture myself with this crap,” and logged off.

How’d you make a Grenade build with bad damage? That’s still the best option out there.

nakoda.4213:

double grenade barrage pop, double elixir pop, and double flame blast pop. granted, they may have only been “hand in the cookie jar” exploits, and not the “stole five hundred billion in gold after crashing two planes into a high rise” kind of exploit, but they were exploits nonetheless.

Devs designed Kit Refinement to be that way. It was blatantly intended.

It was not an exploit. It was intended. It’s highly dramatic to call them exploits. They were, again, intended.

But when too many people use the same traits, those traits get reviewed. “Why are so many players in one of the underplayed professions all picking Kit Refinement?” “How can we add balanced diversity?” “Hmm, let’s change the key skills that make Engineers pick it, so they’ll pick other stuff instead—solved.”

People who used Super Elixir or Grenade Barrage didn’t view themselves as OP. They viewed themselves as equaling the other professions they faced. And frankly, the rest of the forums were not crying “OMG THE ENGINEER IS TOO OP”.

So why then, would we get gutted? Makes no sense.

Most of the people complaining are not complaining from the narrow mindset of the Engineer. They are complaining from the broad mindset of all the other professions. Other professions can trait for damage AND condition removal. Or damage AND a million other things. So why was the Engineer deleted from one of its favorite builds?

The new Kit Refinement would have been accepted if it wasn’t broken. The new skills are fine, some loved. But the global cooldown is ridiculous. It’s now far too situational (probably intended) so that only a select few will pick it—thereby freeing up “diversity” to the Engineer.

Turrets still need to be buffed.

being able to drop two full grenade barrages within one global cooldown is not intended. it was accidental. you cannot tell me that the devs intended any two abilities to be used on the same GCD like tha, otherwise, why have the GCD?

the dbl pop was accidental, and therefore an “exploit”

no one is calling anyone a cheater. exploits and cheats are different things.

eg: jumping. to avoid KR proc was also an exploit.

I wish the people knew the truth about “you” and stopped giving you attention, no offence but pretty much every thread you comment becomes ruined afterwards

CriSPeH.8512:

nakoda.4213:

double grenade barrage pop, double elixir pop, and double flame blast pop. granted, they may have only been “hand in the cookie jar” exploits, and not the “stole five hundred billion in gold after crashing two planes into a high rise” kind of exploit, but they were exploits nonetheless.

I wouldn’t go as far to call them exploits!
Just very bad design decisions. Its hard to tell anyone not to take advantage of something that seems to be working but just might be suffering from poor balance.

Like Thieves taking advantage of culling. Anet applied the culling and a side effect was stealthed players got a few extra seconds of invisibility, which you cannot blame the players for. But what those players did was specifically design builds to take advantage of the culling so they could remain unseen permanently.
So you could say they were exploiting but Imo its closer to what you previously said that they were just taking advantage of something. (bad design decision.)

Otherwise right now whole servers are exploiting in WvW by running in zergs of 50+ ,so that when they attack you receive such a huge lag spike you end up insta downing before you can even get your heal skill to activate.

No, Thieves using unintended perma-stealth is an exploit. They know it isn’t intended, but decide to take advantage of it for as long as possible.

Engineers using a skill as designed (without even needing to do anything “funny”) is not an exploit. You literally just had to place 10 trait points and pick it. Not an exploit at all.

If Engineers in full Zerkers gear were killing people with Kit Refinement, that is a select balance issue of Grenades scaling when multiple factors were chosen. You needed to pick Grenadier for a third hit and 1500 range, Zerkers gear, and HGH to stack Might. That made a super-ranged Engineer that could burst (and die easily having zero defense, AND don’t forget at max range he/she would miss with Grenade hits and only have one Grenade Barrage… so could be argued it was balanced all along and was a glass cannon choice). Obviously, THAT needed to be fixed if truly an issue. That is not an exploit, but min/maxing traits with stats.

The rest of the Engineers that were not stacking tons of power (AKA normal players with their own builds) were now affected too, because Anet decided to kill Kit Refinement for all instead of HGH might stacking (or any other amount of things). And yet, we all still assume Might Stacking will be killed off.

So now Engineers lost an ability to do melee-range burst, lost condition removal, and may lose HGH still (which was the only reason Kit Refinement was ever considered OP…).

I’m not saying Engineers shouldn’t be nerfed when needed, but I am saying builds shouldn’t be deleted. With a nerf, we could still decide to keep our loved skill choices. With a delete, we are forced to play a new way.

I’m also saying that Kit Refinement didn’t change much of anything, as HGH is unaffected, so it makes no sense, and will still trigger nerfs in the future. And let me remind people that stacking up to 25 Might is not easy unless you go a very particular route to do so, and that route can be argued as “balanced”, since it is so particular (and boring if not your playstyle).

Zenguy.6421:

Summary of the 29 March patch:

Who benefited significantly?

• Elixir/condition (giver’s weapons now work and RNG on elixirs reduced)

Who lost out significantly:

• 100nades (build removed)
• KR multi-kit builds (major reduction to survivability)

Buffs that have had little impact:

• Turrets

What’s happened: Elixir users are happy; 100nades users no longer exist; the few turret users liked it but their numbers haven’t increased significantly; major migration from other Eng builds to Elixir based ones.

Overall the patch turned Engs into an elixir based condition class with a common play style. If that’s what you like, the patch was great. If not, other Eng builds can be made to work, but you’ll have to work very hard to achieve that as the popular but only marginally effective KR based builds were heavily nerfed.

This sums it up nicely. And exact.

nakoda.4213:

How do you quantify impact? I see far more turrets in pvp (where one would expect to see them) than I did pre-patch, myself included.

the turret buffs were an improvement, you cannot simply negate them just because you don’t use them

People tend to flock to what was buffed to try it out. You’ll see people with turrets for that reason obviously. It doesn’t mean turrets are truly where they should be at, or that the players like them.

The players are simply trying to make it “work” because the patch told them they are supposed to.

And “you” applies to a large chunk of the Engineer community. Your observations are a minority compared to the wealth of Engineers that have wanted to like their turrets more, but simply couldn’t.

So when people say that the turret buff is a moot point, it is because the turret buff is a moot point. There is common sense reasoning behind it. One, turrets are underused. Two, the current buff is only a step in the right direction, and still not enough. No one is saying it wasn’t a buff. They are saying that overall, the Engineer lost a chunk while getting bandaids to the rest.

Or, what was gained didn’t equal or surpass what was lost.

Turrets are OP on sPvP!! they can perfectly kill a warrior :]

nakoda.4213:

being able to drop two full grenade barrages within one global cooldown is not intended. it was accidental. you cannot tell me that the devs intended any two abilities to be used on the same GCD like tha, otherwise, why have the GCD?

the dbl pop was accidental, and therefore an “exploit”

no one is calling anyone a cheater. exploits and cheats are different things.

eg: jumping. to avoid KR proc was also an exploit.

It was, and still is intended.

The new Kit Refinement still does a “double pop”. You automatically activate an ability while being able to do another.

Still there. Still intended.

The Devs put it in. It was used for months and months and months. Can’t say it wasn’t ever intended. You can say it was too popular.

sure, whatever. okay.

if it was intended to be able to use the same ability twice within one global cooldown,

it would still be in the game.

this is not the same thing as using an instant ability during another ability’s channel.

this is specifically about using the same ability twice at once.

Just wanted to say, thanks for bringing some logic to this thread, Hsinimod, some well said stuff.

yup, thanks Hsinimod :]

Hsinimod.5784:

Your observations are a minority compared to the wealth of Engineers that have wanted to like their turrets more, but simply couldn’t.

Am I the minority?

You think the forums represent the majority?

“would have liked” “couldn’t” = subjectivity. they “couldn’t” because of all the vitriol here on the forums which told people “gg 100 nades or kitten off dont bother having an opinion” that lasted for MONTHS.

Calling the turret buffs a moot point is as blanket a dismissal of everyone who is not you and is also wrong.

You can take the time to reread the forums yourself if you like, but the consensus is that the KR nerf and Turret buffs have opened up numerous avenues for players to experiment with a great many more tools than they previously did, precisely because they are not “pigeon holed” (and i would argue they never were) into using a gimick exploit to dbl their damage based on one over powered tier one trait that made other builds “seem” non-viable, when in fact they’ve always been viable but constantly looked over by people not capable to see past “zomg nades can dps goods lerl”

sorry, but you will not sway me in to feeling sorry for any of the post BUFF PATCH qq.

You got buffs. You don’t like them. Your problem.

I think the whole game represents the majority. When you belong to a large guild of 400+ players, and they openly talk without attacking each other, and they all dabble in multiple professions in all content areas of the game…. you can gather a consensus of what the general feelings are. Or the same thing when in map chat of any zone. Generally, from being social in an MMO. And our server is generally quite social.

People tend to talk, and nicely, when there isn’t an attitude behind what they are saying.

People mainly say two things.
1) Engineers were given fixes that were a long time coming, a small buff, and a large nerf.
2) And, by doing this, more builds are viable, simply because we were forced to change.

And in regards to Turrets, yes, more Engineers complain about Turrets than they gloat about how wonderful they are—both in-game and on the forums. “Seeing” players use them has nothing to do with the feelings on them. I used them for a long time with a knock-down build, but it didn’t mean I enjoyed them. They were always a reminder they were lacking. And many other Engineers say similar things. “They tried to like them” “they used them while leveling” “they simply die at high levels” “they wish…..” etc.

I’m simply using the same tone as you Nak, who is dismissing everyone that isn’t you. A minor buff to unused turrets doesn’t count as a true buff nor justify for the large nerf. Turrets are used mainly as fodder to blow up. That is saying something huge about the poor design of turrets. Players view them as more valuable being blown up.

Turret buffs were frankly a “give me” to the Engineers so Anet could take away. A misdirection. Anet “fixes” long term bugs of every profession suddenly when they are taking away a key element. Turrets are not going to break the game, so a round of extra damage is a sweet deal when destroying builds. Especially since turrets are underused, and they can be brought back down if need be.

I’m not dismissing anyone who uses Turrets. I’m dismissing that increasing their damage is a buff to the Engineer in the context of the whole patch. Or, more exact, to most Engineers (as we’ve all been saying all along). As someone else already mentioned, this patch was a buff to a subset that wasn’t using grenades, a nerf to a large chunk, and irrelevant to the rest. Of course you won’t care for those who lost out, since it didn’t affect you. No one was speaking for you, they were speaking for the death of their builds. Please stop speaking for us.

I care not anymore about the nerf, except to call it what it is. You apparently do, since you bring it up on many other threads. You want to go to the extremes and call Kit Refinement, that existed for almost a year, an exploit? Fine. It doesn’t change the fact it was designed to function that way, and still does function the exact same way. It still triggers while the player can trigger any other ability. This you are ok with. But when it triggers Grenade Barrage, and the player chooses to active Grenade Barrage at the same time, “oh! that was never intended! it is an exploit”….. But if they activated their Skill #1 auto-attack, that is perfectly intended…. Sorry, but the Devs made Grenade Barrage a toolbelt skill AND a Kit Refinement skill. Fully intended. Now it is Grenade Barrage and Throw Mine instead. This an exploit?

The consensus was generally not upset that Grenade Barrage and Super Elixir double tapping were taken away, but the fact they were taken away WHILE Kit Refinement was destroyed for multi-kit users. It is clunky and now a waste of a trait for those that loved it. Either change would have been met with sour notes, but together it was a solid message that a staple trait was being deleted and to change your builds.

The trait was never OP for the vast majority of users (most people don’t min/max). It simply was useful for a variety of builds, and used by “too many” as more and more became aware of it. Single kit users AND multi-kit users all had something to benefit from. Mainly Flame Thrower, Elixir Gun, and Grenade users had a reason to place 10 points there. Where else would they put them for their builds? Even Tool kit users liked it for keeping targets close, but Speedy Kits was more useful.

As others have mentioned, the balance with other professions being able to do multitasking and having low cost traits wasn’t touched, but Engineer was (again, I never see crying about Engineers from the other professions). All because of balancing issues with the top tPvP subset? That is a horrible way to deal with a problem.

You say the Engineer has multiple viable builds? For single target DPS, yes (or PvE because anyone can outsmart the AI). But for AoE, the grenade spread and range simply outperforms the rest of the Engineer’s tools. Rifle, Elixir Gun, and Pistols simply don’t have enough splash damage. Bombs do, but are melee. Flame Thrower was broken for months (miss miss miss miss) and is a medium range weapon whose damage isn’t worth (usually) the sacrifice to range (unless range is worthless due to cramped conditions). Obviously in PvP, people need to get to the points, forcing crappy range to not be an issue. But in WvW and PvE, you’ll notice it is just far more efficient to use Grenade builds, even though the rest can be “fine”. Why would you give up so much AoE when you know all fights are going to call for AoE?

The problem Nak, is that the Engineer community is keenly aware of all aspects of the game, not just the top 3% of tPvP. And, they play other professions too. They fully expect something like Might stacking to be nerfed, but instead get a curve ball with a favorite but lowly trait being fully changed. No Engineer will care really Nak, they’ll just change their build from over that one trait being deleted or play another toon. But you know the real reason why Engineers will care for the long term? Because they then wonder how many more needless changes will happen due to balancing issues at the top, that ends up affecting the “majority” of players.

wow, I’m speechless. this was well thought out and 100% true, there is not one word I would disagree with. much respect for you Hsinimod.

and now, since people aren’t being hoodwinked into the gimmick of the broken KR trait, people are actually USING other skills we have, giving them much needed PLAYER attention, increasing exposure and discussion, and putting those skills under a proper critical review that consists of more than “zomg 100nades pew pew”.

You may not like it, but the changes that ANet forced upon us were for the better of the entire player base of engineers because engineers are no longer being tricked by the forum community into thinking we only have one build.

here is some reading for you post 3/26 where you will find arguments on both sides of the issue:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/I-feel-forced-into-using-only-grenades-PvE/first#post1738040

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Five-Gauge-s-100nade-Guide/page/3#post1712675

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/My-FT-build/first#post1762747

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/RIP-Kit-Refinement/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Alt-to-100-Condition-Duration-P-P-HGH-build/first#post1732092

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-New-Meta-for-WvW/first#post1710902

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Can-Flamethrower-be-Viable-Post-Patch/first#post1739019

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Shout-Out-to-all-Roaming-Engineers-in-WvW/first#post1782466

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-odds-our-HGH-gets-nerfed/first#post1780096

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engineer-sPvP-Turret-build-Flame-and-Frost/first#post1743615

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Tpvp-Turret-Engineer-videos/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/List-of-my-TPvP-engi-builds/first#post1756720

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/State-of-the-Engineer-after-last-patch

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-age-of-the-engineer/first#content

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Net-Turret-Rifle-Build-Discussion/first#content

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/HGH-build-guide-thanks-to-neglekt/first#post1809669

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Drakeco-s-Videos-How-to-Shatter-mesmer-up/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/What-is-that-infamous-HGH-build-that-I-read/first#content

^
You are kinda calling everyone stupid and saying they cant think for themselves.

The changes being for the better are just your opinion and Anet has never said they did it to open up new build possibilities, Anet said it was because they didnt think a 10pt trait should be so powerful.

You could also search the forums after every major profession change and find an equal if not greater quantity of Build Idea posts.

I don’t think anyone, including myself need babysitters fudging things around to ensure they (I) am not only using the skills that I have fun using but trying out all skill possibilities. As if there is some magic unknown combonation that ppl just havent come up with yet!

I don’t see Anet doing anything to persuade the Hugely Vast amount of players running Macro Thieves or D/D Ele’s.

CriSPeH.8512:

I don’t see Anet doing anything to persuade the Hugely Vast amount of players running Macro Thieves or D/D Ele’s.

That may in fact be coming, for D/D Cantrip Eles anyway:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just so you guys know, we’re trying to bring down the cantrip Ele, while also being careful to let other Ele builds work. We don’t want to just take all Ele’s out of play, but we do need to bring a few things down (traits/skills) in efficacy.

From https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Analysis-of-Cantrips-Eles/1808207

Just hope they do it in a way that doesn’t mess us up at the same time.

AlietteFaye.7316:

How’d you make a Grenade build with bad damage? That’s still the best option out there.

Because he compared the damage to the damage from any other class in the game.