Guild Wars 2

WHAT A LOVELY DAY! (to be a Dragonhunter)
Part I – tidying up around the house

A list of all the changes I would like to see for polished, competitive Dragonhunter at launch.

Names

• Dulled Senses. Yeah, I have no idea how this name ties to the effect, and since the effect has changed repeatedly I sincerely doubt anyone else does either.
• Zealot’s Aggression. This is subtle, but I would not use the word “Zealot” for a trait name on a profession with a “Zeal” trait line unless that trait was IN the Zeal line…
• Hunter’s Ward. While wards are used in fantasy fiction to describe both things that protect and things that entrap, the protective usage is more common and makes this skill name a little jarring. Please consider “Hunter’s Cages” or “Luminous Cages”… I would really like a skill name that leads to the soft CC effect it delivers being commonly referred to as ‘being caged’. Its evocative, accurate, and unlikely to be mistaken for any other effect in the game by casual readers.

Audio FX

• Puncture Shot. New sound that isn’t backwoods tub-thumping. I want the ‘creak-snap’ of a POWERFUL weapon being drawn and released. Get the folley guys out on a fieldtrip to record some crossbows maybe. ‘rrrrrk-THIP!’
• True Shot. More cowbell! Or at least more rumbling whoosh like a jet aircraft taking off. Make the player smile and enemies cringe when this beast goes off.

Visual FX

• Piercing Light. Needs a new icon now that it no longer causes bleeding.
• Longbow. All attacks need a unified visual theme, preferably inspired by the smaller arrows raining down when using #5. Should have light trails similar to Focus #4
• Virtues. More use of the Guardian’s signature blue-white fire.

Shield
This could easily be THE go to weapon for support-minded Guardians trying to help their team from the back line with two tiny adjustments~

• Shield of Judgment. !!Update!! Adding 4 second Aegis is dead sexy, but I still think it needs 900 range (up from 600) to mesh with DH using it on a fast swap from the back line.
• Shield of Absorption. !!update!! Now a 4 second channel and mobile. Fantastic .

Spirit Weapons
Potentially the best damage-adders for ranged Dragonhunters, they need better up-time. Please consider one of the following~

• Minion-like. Spirit weapons persist until destroyed (no timer).
• Grace Under Pressure. By default if a spirit weapon is destroyed by damage instead of by timing out, cooldown is significantly reduced (-50%?).

WHAT A LOVELY DAY! (to be a Dragonhunter)
Part II – meat, potatoes, and dessert!

A list of all the changes I would like to see for polished, competitive Dragonhunter at launch.

Virtues

• Wings of Resolve. As a regular user of the Battle Presence trait (which is now disable while this virtue is on cooldown) I’d like to see the base cooldown slightly reduced. I would like for the trait that enhances this virtue to increase the range to 1200.
• Shield of Courage. In an effort to see further reduced reliance on Renewed Focus by Dragonhunters, I’d like to see the cooldown slightly reduced. Having all three virtues recharge faster than their core profession counterparts will also provide symmetry helping to explain to new players why all three have cast times.

Longbow

• Symbol of Energy. Increase symbol radius to 200 (up from 180).
• Hunters Ward (Cages ). Apply cage effect on 2nd or 3rd tick rather than 4th.

Traps

• Purification. Add “Cleanses 1 condition from Dragonhunter when placed and when triggered.”
• Test of Faith. Add “Placing this trap is a stunbreak. Creates a Light Field when triggered.
• Procession of Blades. Add “First and final damage pulse are whirl finishers.”
• Dragons’ Maw. Add “Downed enemies in the cage radius are finished when the cage effect ends.”

Traits
There’s just one jagged burr left.

• Pure of Sight. This effect needs to be selectable rather than mandatory to enable a wider range of builds that include melee focused trappers without forcing them to take a “dead” minor trait. Numerous options present themselves for juggling a more broadly useful effect into this slot while swapping this out to compliment a range-focused trait set-up.

We are SOOOO CLOOOSE to Dragonhunter being a dreamteam line-up of skills and effects for mystic/holy archer themes. Really looking forward to it and to the echoing screams of all those players who declared traps “useless” when they stumble into them in the heat of battle …

I think a good start with fixing dragon hunter and even guardian in general would to have a skill similar to ele’s skill that allows passive effects to continue but instead of signets allow guardians to have virtues passive effects continue.

Black Box.9312:

Nike.2631:

It interacts poorly with the my-god-touch-nothing meditation meta build. There’s lots of other things Guards do that have enough flex to them that you can shuffling things and have something interesting to work with. I’m not kidding when I say this constant “but it’s not exactly like medi-meta!” is going to get medi-meta nerfed.

Except people aren’t arguing that it’s just “not as good as medi”. They’re arguing that it’s just terrible in comparison to anything that is currently played at the competitive level.

It would be a different story if Guardians were dominating the meta. But Medi Guard is all but dead, and Bunker Guard is slowly being pushed out the door again by more self-sufficient classes that can function without the need for significant allied support. We’re not asking for the world. We’re just asking for something that can actually effectively work with the game we’ve been given.

This right here. Please people read this

Nike.2631:

stuff

• Spirit Weapons
  I could dig those changes. SW need something, but I haven’t had that epiphany of what I’d like to change.

• Virtues
  I’m not sure if you’re assuming this or not, and I’m not sure if I fully remember this correctly, but iirc both Wings and Shield are being reduced to… 30s and 50-75s. I forget exactly, but that’s what I remember hearing last.

• Longbow
  SoE should stay consistent with other symbols. HW follows the naming convention of the currently existing wards, so I have no issue with the name (or functionality for that matter)

• Traps
  Purification reduce active heal by 25%. Remove 5 conditions and heal based on among removed, back to original amount. Follows naming conventions better
  Test of Faith I don’t really think either change is necessary. It compares nicely with PF when traited, and acts more like Ring of Fire/Offensive PF.
  Procession of Blades Whole skill should be a whirl finisher. One projectile per second.
  Dragons Maw I dig it.

• PoS
  I don’t really mind it staying where it is, but if I had to move it, I ding know what I’d swap it with. Zealot’s Aggression sounds like a good option, but I don’t think it’s the right option.

I’ve been thinking about the Shield #5 skill change…

With it becoming mobile, did we just get 4 seconds to bulldozer people into waiting traps?

Nike.2631:

I’ve been thinking about the Shield #5 skill change…

With it becoming mobile, did we just get 4 seconds to bulldozer people into waiting traps?

Not necessarily. I think, even with the 4 second duration, it will only knockback once.
Something I have been thinking about however, is our F2 Wings of resolve. While it is now at 800 range, I see no reason for it not to be 1200 range. Especially in light of the recent druid reveal. The druid staff ability (#2) has a 1200 range, on a ridiculously short cooldown compared to our virtue and heals for quite a bit. It practically has the same functionality, so why can’t our F2 leap be 1200 range? At this point I don’t think it would hurt anyone.

Let me make this clear:
Dragonhunter traitline is optional to the Guardian.
Dragonhunter traitline is mandatory to the Dragonhunter.
Defender’s Dogma and Pure of Sight are also mandatory to the Dragonhunter.
Dragonhunter’s new Virtues are also mandatory to the Dragonhunter.
Longbow is optional to the Dragonhunter.
Traps are optional to the Dragonhunter.

Therefore, the biggest issue at hand are the bad Minor traits of the Dragonhunter.
Traps come in second as they are optional. Once the Minor traits are decent, even if you still do not like Traps, you can unslot them, just like we have all unslotted Spirit Weapons. I am not saying Traps do not need a fix, I am saying the Minor traits should be priority. Traps also need a fix, as badly as Spirit Weapons do.

Symbolic Power, Renewed Justice, Courageous Return, Purity of Body or Inspired Virtue.
We are being asked to renounce to one of those. We would like something as useful as them in return, not a badly designed ineffective trait like Pure of Sight which ends up as a dead trait in more builds than not.

The other big issue is the non-interaction of the new Virtues with the core Guardian traitlines.
Justice is Blind, Renewed Justice, Wrath of Justice, Courageous Return, Purity of Body, Inspired Virtue, Virtue of Retribution, Absolute Resolution, Supreme Justice, Power of the Virtuous, Battle Presence, Idomitable Courage, Permeating Wrath.
All these traits must be made to work one way or the other with the Dragonhunter Virtues.

I don’t think anyone questions that Dragonhunter is optional. That really isn’t the point. The concern is if it will be a viable option.

They’ve built a specialization where they’ve said the Guardian will be more selfish, but also said it will be back line support. They’ve given us traps that can cripple and daze, but we have to give up anything that would make us survivable.

I don’t want something overpowered, I just want something that would exciting to play. In my opinion Dragonhunter, even with its increased damage and decreased cool downs isn’kitten

In fact, the fact the very fact that we only get increased damage and decreased cool downs is really a slap in the face to the community. Given the poor reception I would think they would want to work with the community a little to help Guardians.

Nike.2631:

I’ve been thinking about the Shield #5 skill change…

With it becoming mobile, did we just get 4 seconds to bulldozer people into waiting traps?

SoA isn’t a Ward, so it wouldn’t be safe to assume the knockback lasts for 4 seconds.

Ghotistyx.6942:

SoA isn’t a Ward, so it wouldn’t be safe to assume the knockback lasts for 4 seconds.

Yeah. I’m getting that impression too… would have been hilarious though. Shield-bubble bum-rush into Dragon’s Maw. The resulting screams would be exquisite.

Just having 20 shield guardians in a zerg would be delicious enough.

till the other side brings 20 reapers and then your front and midline melts in 3 seconds. That aegis sure made a difference!!

Yeah, all those Unblockable skills and all that stability Reaper brings.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Yeah, all those Unblockable skills and all that stability Reaper brings.

indeed, warhorn 4 and wells are a dangerous thing

You can dodge while dazed. Maybe something actually threatening would be more impactful.

Ghotistyx.6942:

You can dodge while dazed. Maybe something actually threatening would be more impactful.

That doesn’t support your argument in any way though…?

Black Box.9312:

Ghotistyx.6942:

You can dodge while dazed. Maybe something actually threatening would be more impactful.

That doesn’t support your argument in any way though…?

He completely forgot Necros have unblockables and hes trying to grasp for anything he can.

Well no, I know that Necros have some Unblockable skills. Even Reaper is getting some Reaper specific Unblockables, but they’re nothing I’m going to fear. Even if I’m dazed and trying to navigate a well bomb, it’s not a huge issue. Nothing that any class hasn’t had to deal with before.

Plus, I thought we were talking about a hypothetical situation where 20 shield guardians were running around with a mobile projectile absorption and ward. In that case, Reapers wouldn’t even be able to get close to threatening. 20 mobile wards would strip any amount of stability in seconds and leave the enemy zerg to experience the exciting life of a ping pong ball. But, as we all know, this will not be the case, so it’s a moot point.

Back on topic, I still like every proposed change to both Dragonhunter and Guardian, with the sole exception of Heavy Light. I’d rather not have that as recently proposed.

Arutha.9874:

Hi sorry for focusing on you, but I have been replying elsewhere to these kinds of rationalisations and would like to post it here for those that hold this opinion, perhaps devs too:

Rangers already have a lot of tools for max range, traps are their powerful melee option. Guardians have NO ranged tools(weapons or utilities) and the longbow currently is not much better than the pixey stick, we need ranged traps to be our ranged utilities.

And there is no point in suggesting we wait for next elite to get ranged utilities because then we can’t equip both elites to wield longbow and those ranged utilities. I doubt we are going to get shortbow.

This is our only chance to get a good ranged spec, so otherwise everyone will re roll revenant if they are tired of melee guard.

To return to the main point you bring up the development time problem and I have tried to address that in my suggestion I will quote below. We have the tech to have ranged traps, effectively just marks (just add a deployment delay) or using the old ranger tech, and we have the animation from longbow 4. There should not be that much dev time, I mean if they can change displace to knock backs on revenant there should be no issue with this.

The guardian already has utilities that are useful at range. Consecrations, signets, shouts, and spirit weapons are all useful at range (or at least no less useful at range than in melee, with the exception of a couple of consecrations which still provide some benefit at range).

If longbow as a weapon isn’t worthwhile, then the problem is with the longbow, not with the traps – and that seems to be where Karl’s attention has focused. No profession should have to rely on utilities as their primary offensive weapon. Enhancing and supplementing it, yes, but if the weapon is bad, it’s the weapon that needs to be improved.

Also, even though the bow and minors are focused towards longer ranges, you still get a weaponswap as a dragonhunter, and that weaponswap is likely to be melee on most builds, I expect. You could use the traps as traps, or you could jump in with a melee weapon and treat them effectively as PBAoEs by dropping them at your feet. So you can, in fact, treat the traps just like the ranger does, as long as the longbow is up to scratch.

If the longbow isn’t up to scratch… again, the problem there rests with the weapon being poor, not the utilities.

draxynnic.3719:

Arutha.9874:

Hi sorry for focusing on you, but I have been replying elsewhere to these kinds of rationalisations and would like to post it here for those that hold this opinion, perhaps devs too:

Rangers already have a lot of tools for max range, traps are their powerful melee option. Guardians have NO ranged tools(weapons or utilities) and the longbow currently is not much better than the pixey stick, we need ranged traps to be our ranged utilities.

And there is no point in suggesting we wait for next elite to get ranged utilities because then we can’t equip both elites to wield longbow and those ranged utilities. I doubt we are going to get shortbow.

This is our only chance to get a good ranged spec, so otherwise everyone will re roll revenant if they are tired of melee guard.

To return to the main point you bring up the development time problem and I have tried to address that in my suggestion I will quote below. We have the tech to have ranged traps, effectively just marks (just add a deployment delay) or using the old ranger tech, and we have the animation from longbow 4. There should not be that much dev time, I mean if they can change displace to knock backs on revenant there should be no issue with this.

The guardian already has utilities that are useful at range. Consecrations, signets, shouts, and spirit weapons are all useful at range (or at least no less useful at range than in melee, with the exception of a couple of consecrations which still provide some benefit at range).

If longbow as a weapon isn’t worthwhile, then the problem is with the longbow, not with the traps – and that seems to be where Karl’s attention has focused. No profession should have to rely on utilities as their primary offensive weapon. Enhancing and supplementing it, yes, but if the weapon is bad, it’s the weapon that needs to be improved.

Also, even though the bow and minors are focused towards longer ranges, you still get a weaponswap as a dragonhunter, and that weaponswap is likely to be melee on most builds, I expect. You could use the traps as traps, or you could jump in with a melee weapon and treat them effectively as PBAoEs by dropping them at your feet. So you can, in fact, treat the traps just like the ranger does, as long as the longbow is up to scratch.

If the longbow isn’t up to scratch… again, the problem there rests with the weapon being poor, not the utilities.

The problem is that the utilities are poor, though. Traps are, from a mechanical standpoint, the worst utility skill set in the game.

Also, it’s kind of funny that you put signets and spirit weapons in the category of “useful”. I don’t think you’ll see very much agreement with that.

If Karl doesn’t want to make all traps ground targetable, how about adding an F4 where you can slot one trap at a time to be placed using ground target, maybe that could work?

Lyger.5429:

If Karl doesn’t want to make all traps ground targetable, how about adding an F4 where you can slot one trap at a time to be placed using ground target, maybe that could work?

This is my thought for F4:

Virtue of Perseverance
Active: 25% Increased Movement Speed
Passive: Teleport an untriggered trap to your target.

Then the trap trait could be a GM that lets you teleport all untriggered traps to the target. Not sure about the cooldown. Probably high. This would make traps more interesting and give Guardian the much needed move speed increase(though I would prefer that particular boon to be for the base Guardian).

Varathiel.9128:

Lyger.5429:

If Karl doesn’t want to make all traps ground targetable, how about adding an F4 where you can slot one trap at a time to be placed using ground target, maybe that could work?

This is my thought for F4:

Virtue of Perseverance
Active: 25% Increased Movement Speed
Passive: Teleport an untriggered trap to your target.

Then the trap trait could be a GM that lets you teleport all untriggered traps to the target. Not sure about the cooldown. Probably high. This would make traps more interesting and give Guardian the much needed move speed increase(though I would prefer that particular boon to be for the base Guardian).

players don’t want to be tied into a single utility. its fine, dh is made to work w/ traps (not really but, that was the idea).

but don’t force dh into trap builds. i think all trait lines should have diff (optimal or not) ways to play them. i should be able to take honor and play it as a dps class or a support class. i should be able to take dh and play how i want to play, don’t lock it to traps tots

Varathiel.9128:

Lyger.5429:

If Karl doesn’t want to make all traps ground targetable, how about adding an F4 where you can slot one trap at a time to be placed using ground target, maybe that could work?

This is my thought for F4:

Virtue of Perseverance
Active: 25% Increased Movement Speed
Passive: Teleport an untriggered trap to your target.

Then the trap trait could be a GM that lets you teleport all untriggered traps to the target. Not sure about the cooldown. Probably high. This would make traps more interesting and give Guardian the much needed move speed increase(though I would prefer that particular boon to be for the base Guardian).

The idea of adding a new F4 skill is nice….. but it should not be tied to traps as traps are very situational at there very best & crap most of the rest of the time. Not to mention many players may not even have traps equipped.

As for a 25% movement speed increase, it really should be tied to a trait.

There are several majors that could still use quite a bit of tweaking.
There is also the two latter minors which should either be merged into existing majors or just plain deleted.
A movement speed trait could easily go in any of these spots.

I like F4 for movement virtue, but only for dragonhunter.

“Enter the dragon” – player takes mighty dragon form dazing 5 targets and giving himself agility of a dragon.
F4 – passive – 25% movement trait
– activate – 8 sec of vigor , 1 sec of aoe daze
25 sec cd

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Varathiel.9128:

Lyger.5429:

If Karl doesn’t want to make all traps ground targetable, how about adding an F4 where you can slot one trap at a time to be placed using ground target, maybe that could work?

This is my thought for F4:

Virtue of Perseverance
Active: 25% Increased Movement Speed
Passive: Teleport an untriggered trap to your target.

Then the trap trait could be a GM that lets you teleport all untriggered traps to the target. Not sure about the cooldown. Probably high. This would make traps more interesting and give Guardian the much needed move speed increase(though I would prefer that particular boon to be for the base Guardian).

The idea of adding a new F4 skill is nice….. but it should not be tied to traps as traps are very situational at there very best & crap most of the rest of the time. Not to mention many players may not even have traps equipped.

As for a 25% movement speed increase, it really should be tied to a trait.

There are several majors that could still use quite a bit of tweaking.
There is also the two latter minors which should either be merged into existing majors or just plain deleted.
A movement speed trait could easily go in any of these spots.

You’re definitely right. That was a half-formed 5 second idea while I am bored at work. Didn’t think it through. DH doesn’t have to take traps and shouldn’t given their current implementation. Movement speed increase needs to happen in whatever way they will give it to us, lol. I really don’t think ground targeting will help very much for traps ankitten ot sure what will.

Varathiel.9128:

This is my thought for F4:

Virtue of Perseverance
Active: 25% Increased Movement Speed
Passive: Teleport an untriggered trap to your target.

Then the trap trait could be a GM that lets you teleport all untriggered traps to the target. Not sure about the cooldown. Probably high. This would make traps more interesting and give Guardian the much needed move speed increase(though I would prefer that particular boon to be for the base Guardian).

What is this I don’t even

We need to put the 25% movement speed to rest. Bring it back up when there’s a more fitting elite specialization

DH needs a reliable stun break. F3 has a cast time so if you get focused and locked down you’re dead. Contemplation of purity is our main condi cleanse, can’t waste that trying to stun break. None of the traps are stun breaks. So where’s our stun break? This is crucial especially since dragonhunter is an offensive line and we need the survivability. Anyone who is going to take shouts to stun break would rather go honor line than dragonhunter. So yea, give us a stun break. Whats the point of having our stun break/stab(f3) if it has a cast time, how does that even make sense.Dragonhunters will be locked down and killed so easily without it.

NotoriousNaru.1705:

DH needs a reliable stun break. F3 has a cast time so if you get focused and locked down you’re dead. Contemplation of purity is our main condi cleanse, can’t waste that trying to stun break. None of the traps are stun breaks. So where’s our stun break? This is crucial especially since dragonhunter is an offensive line and we need the survivability. Anyone who is going to take shouts to stun break would rather go honor line than dragonhunter. So yea, give us a stun break. Whats the point of having our stun break/stab(f3) if it has a cast time, how does that even make sense.Dragonhunters will be locked down and killed so easily without it.

Shield of Courage with Indomitable Courage stun breaks instantly then casts the shield and boons.

What’s the point of checking your facts before posting on a forum? It saves you from making an incorrect post.

Stunbreaks that have activation times break the stun as soon as they start activating, and you can start moving from there. Trust me, I used Rite of the Great Dwarf as a stunbreak back when it had a 2.5s activation.

Black Box.9312:

The problem is that the utilities are poor, though. Traps are, from a mechanical standpoint, the worst utility skill set in the game.

Also, it’s kind of funny that you put signets and spirit weapons in the category of “useful”. I don’t think you’ll see very much agreement with that.

No, I put them in the category of “at least no less useful at range than in melee”. Just how useful they actually are varies.

As for traps being the worst utility type: There are people who like them, and can make effective use of them. ArenaNet is planning on making more than one specialisation per profession, so it’s not a disaster if this one isn’t everything you wanted.

draxynnic.3719:

Stunbreaks that have activation times break the stun as soon as they start activating, and you can start moving from there. Trust me, I used Rite of the Great Dwarf as a stunbreak back when it had a 2.5s activation.

Black Box.9312:

The problem is that the utilities are poor, though. Traps are, from a mechanical standpoint, the worst utility skill set in the game.

Also, it’s kind of funny that you put signets and spirit weapons in the category of “useful”. I don’t think you’ll see very much agreement with that.

No, I put them in the category of “at least no less useful at range than in melee”. Just how useful they actually are varies.

As for traps being the worst utility type: There are people who like them, and can make effective use of them. ArenaNet is planning on making more than one specialisation per profession, so it’s not a disaster if this one isn’t everything you wanted.

Of course a good player can make traps useful. Any player who’s good enough can make something bad work. The point is that any player good enough to make traps useful would still be better off taking something else. Traps are mechanically defunct in this game; they rely on an opponent that will trigger and then fail to react to them. When you use a trap you are literally depending on your enemies to kill themselves. This game’s combat is too mobile and fast-paced for something so slow and static, and we already have trap builds that go largely unused that prove this.

Black Box.9312:

draxynnic.3719:

Stunbreaks that have activation times break the stun as soon as they start activating, and you can start moving from there. Trust me, I used Rite of the Great Dwarf as a stunbreak back when it had a 2.5s activation.

Black Box.9312:

The problem is that the utilities are poor, though. Traps are, from a mechanical standpoint, the worst utility skill set in the game.

Also, it’s kind of funny that you put signets and spirit weapons in the category of “useful”. I don’t think you’ll see very much agreement with that.

No, I put them in the category of “at least no less useful at range than in melee”. Just how useful they actually are varies.

As for traps being the worst utility type: There are people who like them, and can make effective use of them. ArenaNet is planning on making more than one specialisation per profession, so it’s not a disaster if this one isn’t everything you wanted.

Of course a good player can make traps useful. Any player who’s good enough can make something bad work. The point is that any player good enough to make traps useful would still be better off taking something else. Traps are mechanically defunct in this game; they rely on an opponent that will trigger and then fail to react to them. When you use a trap you are literally depending on your enemies to kill themselves. This game’s combat is too mobile and fast-paced for something so slow and static, and we already have trap builds that go largely unused that prove this.

^^^^^^^^^^

What black box said.

The are only 2 ways traps would really be worth using vs shouts/meditations. (consecrations are more of a niche thing that are either godly or crap so I won’t compare them & signets/spirit weapons aren’t worth comparing anything to)

1: Give them some real support via boons/heals/condition removal or offensive support via immobilize/stun & conditions (depending on the trap) as well as a way to remotely detonate them (which would obviously not do damage but still trigger the supportive effects)

or

2: Give them damage so overwhelming that it equates to or outshines the support provided by other skill types.

Number 2 would obviously be OP, so unless they start working on number 1 or change them altogether it’s doubtful many people will take traps other then for extremely easy encounters.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Black Box.9312:

draxynnic.3719:

Stunbreaks that have activation times break the stun as soon as they start activating, and you can start moving from there. Trust me, I used Rite of the Great Dwarf as a stunbreak back when it had a 2.5s activation.

Black Box.9312:

The problem is that the utilities are poor, though. Traps are, from a mechanical standpoint, the worst utility skill set in the game.

Also, it’s kind of funny that you put signets and spirit weapons in the category of “useful”. I don’t think you’ll see very much agreement with that.

No, I put them in the category of “at least no less useful at range than in melee”. Just how useful they actually are varies.

As for traps being the worst utility type: There are people who like them, and can make effective use of them. ArenaNet is planning on making more than one specialisation per profession, so it’s not a disaster if this one isn’t everything you wanted.

Of course a good player can make traps useful. Any player who’s good enough can make something bad work. The point is that any player good enough to make traps useful would still be better off taking something else. Traps are mechanically defunct in this game; they rely on an opponent that will trigger and then fail to react to them. When you use a trap you are literally depending on your enemies to kill themselves. This game’s combat is too mobile and fast-paced for something so slow and static, and we already have trap builds that go largely unused that prove this.

^^^^^^^^^^

What black box said.

The are only 2 ways traps would really be worth using vs shouts/meditations. (consecrations are more of a niche thing that are either godly or crap so I won’t compare them & signets/spirit weapons aren’t worth comparing anything to)

1: Give them some real support via boons/heals/condition removal or offensive support via immobilize/stun & conditions (depending on the trap) as well as a way to remotely detonate them (which would obviously not do damage but still trigger the supportive effects)

or

2: Give them damage so overwhelming that it equates to or outshines the support provided by other skill types.

Number 2 would obviously be OP, so unless they start working on number 1 or change them altogether it’s doubtful many people will take traps other then for extremely easy encounters.

They are good examples how traps should work, by don’t hope they will change much. Maybe after 3 years like shield.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

1: Give them some real support via boons/heals/condition removal or offensive support via immobilize/stun & conditions (depending on the trap) as well as a way to remotely detonate them (which would obviously not do damage but still trigger the supportive effects)

or

2: Give them damage so overwhelming that it equates to or outshines the support provided by other skill types.

Number 1 aren’t traps. They’re a different skill type.
Number 2 can be done by hybrid burn builds.

Black Box.9312:

Of course a good player can make traps useful. Any player who’s good enough can make something bad work. The point is that any player good enough to make traps useful would still be better off taking something else.

One could assume that if a good player ends up taking a trap, then it’s probably one of the better skills to take for their expected situation. It’s not entirely about skills being outright better than others, but rather taking the skills for the given situation you’re putting yourself in.

Ghotistyx.6942:

One could assume that if a good player ends up taking a trap, then it’s probably one of the better skills to take for their expected situation. It’s not entirely about skills being outright better than others, but rather taking the skills for the given situation you’re putting yourself in.

It’s a hypothetical response to a proposition that assumes that a good player would take traps in the first place. The good player could take the traps, but in practice the good player won’t take the traps.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

1: Give them some real support via boons/heals/condition removal or offensive support via immobilize/stun & conditions (depending on the trap) as well as a way to remotely detonate them (which would obviously not do damage but still trigger the supportive effects)

or

2: Give them damage so overwhelming that it equates to or outshines the support provided by other skill types.

Number 1 aren’t traps. They’re a different skill type.
Number 2 can be done by hybrid burn builds.

Black Box.9312:

Of course a good player can make traps useful. Any player who’s good enough can make something bad work. The point is that any player good enough to make traps useful would still be better off taking something else.

One could assume that if a good player ends up taking a trap, then it’s probably one of the better skills to take for their expected situation. It’s not entirely about skills being outright better than others, but rather taking the skills for the given situation you’re putting yourself in.

Traps can actually have boon support & things like knockdowns and still be traps.

Look at the ranger ability healing spring. It is a trap that applies a metric f ton of regeneration in AOE.
There is also their spike trap which in addition to bleeding also knocks the target down.

As for hybrid burn builds doing more damage, ya they do. Which is why traps like dragons maw & procession of blades should have some damaging conditions on them at base. (so they work decently with various gear types)

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Hey fellow Engis,

I am reading here and the ranger forums heavily. As others have called out (accurately), working on the last two elite specializations to be revealed is taking up the vast, vast majority of my time, even with assistance from the rest of the team.

This weekend you’ll be able to test out a lot of the theorycrafting (some of which had my eyes widening – in a good way) that you’ve been doing and offer even more awesome feedback.

Things you’ve brought up, like the Scrapper’s lack of a stunbreak on either their utilities or traits is getting acted on, as well as a few more changes to core Engineer and bugfixes.

Ok, see that? I try not to indulge in comparisons between the professions, but there is fundamental philosophy at work here and it needs to be applied uniformly.

Put A Stunbreak On One Of The Traps. Test of Faith is a good candidate, because even as an active supporter of Dragonhunters getting traps, that one is garbage as things currently stand.

Black Box.9312:

Ghotistyx.6942:

One could assume that if a good player ends up taking a trap, then it’s probably one of the better skills to take for their expected situation. It’s not entirely about skills being outright better than others, but rather taking the skills for the given situation you’re putting yourself in.

It’s a hypothetical response to a proposition that assumes that a good player would take traps in the first place. The good player could take the traps, but in practice the good player won’t take the traps.

This ^ exactly.

Why take a trap that only does damage when you can take a meditation that can

1: Heal you
2: Give you fury
Then do 1 of the following

1: Do damage (physical or condition based)
2: Remove a condition (or convert them into boons)
3: Stun break and teleport you to your target.

Traps have to offer something more then just damage.

Fragments of faith is a perfect example of this. It deals damage, cripples and offers AEGIS to allies.

The other traps need to do one of the following at base depending on the trap

1: Apply bleeds
2: Apply boon support
3: Cleanse conditions

And their trait needs to do something to help keep enemies within their radius much the way the ranger trait “Trappers expertise does for rangers”

Nike.2631:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Hey fellow Engis,

I am reading here and the ranger forums heavily. As others have called out (accurately), working on the last two elite specializations to be revealed is taking up the vast, vast majority of my time, even with assistance from the rest of the team.

This weekend you’ll be able to test out a lot of the theorycrafting (some of which had my eyes widening – in a good way) that you’ve been doing and offer even more awesome feedback.

Things you’ve brought up, like the Scrapper’s lack of a stunbreak on either their utilities or traits is getting acted on, as well as a few more changes to core Engineer and bugfixes.

Ok, see that? I try not to indulge in comparisons between the professions, but there is fundamental philosophy at work here and it needs to be applied uniformly.

Put A Stunbreak On One Of The Traps. Test of Faith is a good candidate, because even as an active supporter of Dragonhunters getting traps, that one is garbage as things currently stand.

IDK about a stun break on traps.

Boon support in the form of AOE regeneration, protection, stability or fury however could work fine.

Stun breaks are just to much of a have to have it when u need it type of thing to rely on an enemy triggering the trap.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

IDK about a stun break on traps.

Boon support in the form of AOE regeneration, protection, stability or fury however could work fine.

Stun breaks are just to much of a have to have it when u need it type of thing to rely on an enemy triggering the trap.

I’ve always pushed for a stunbreak on placing the trap, not when it goes off .

Thing is we shouldn’t even have to have this conversation. They learned a long time ago that having all the stunbreaks in one skill type on a profession was a huge problem and redistributed them so most lines had one and very, very few had two. It ought to be part of a checklist by now that ‘your new Espec isn’t done yet until you’ve chosen a skill to be the stunbreak for that line’.

And while I think the Dragonhunter traps gain identity by not relying on damaging conditions and doing direct damage instead, I’m completely on board witht hem giving some condition clear via one of the Guardian’s most iconic mechanics – the light field.

Nike.2631:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

IDK about a stun break on traps.

Boon support in the form of AOE regeneration, protection, stability or fury however could work fine.

Stun breaks are just to much of a have to have it when u need it type of thing to rely on an enemy triggering the trap.

I’ve always pushed for a stunbreak on placing the trap, not when it goes off .

Thing is we shouldn’t even have to have this conversation. They learned a long time ago that having all the stunbreaks in one skill type on a profession was a huge problem and redistributed them so most lines had one and very, very few had two. It ought to be part of a checklist by now that ‘your new Espec isn’t done yet until you’ve chosen a skill to be the stunbreak for that line’.

And while I think the Dragonhunter traps gain identity by not relying on damaging conditions and doing direct damage instead, I’m completely on board witht hem giving some condition clear via one of the Guardian’s most iconic mechanics – the light field.

What about purification?

Personally I think it would be a perfect candidate for condi cleanse.

And quite frankly if they just made it a copy paste of the ranger’s Healing Spring but with a light field instead of a water field then it would be awesome.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Black Box.9312:

It’s a hypothetical response to a proposition that assumes that a good player would take traps in the first place. The good player could take the traps, but in practice the good player won’t take the traps.

This ^ exactly.

Why take a trap that only does damage when you can take a meditation that can

1: Heal you
2: Give you fury
Then do 1 of the following

1: Do damage (physical or condition based)
2: Remove a condition (or convert them into boons)
3: Stun break and teleport you to your target.

Traps have to offer something more then just damage.

Fragments of faith is a perfect example of this. It deals damage, cripples and offers AEGIS to allies.

The other traps need to do one of the following at base depending on the trap

1: Apply bleeds
2: Apply boon support
3: Cleanse conditions

And their trait needs to do something to help keep enemies within their radius much the way the ranger trait “Trappers expertise does for rangers”

A good player would know what kind of situation is best to use traps. Mediations are not a be all end all skill. Boon support and the like are not the purview of traps. Healing Spring is different because it’s 1) a healing skill and 2) converted from not being a trap. Thieves also have traps, and instead of creating a trap heal, they made a trait to place a trap similar to our mediation on heal.

Purification actually is a good candidate for condition removal (only because it’s a healing skill and its called purification). Procession of Blades would be well served with either natively having bleed and/or a whirl finisher. Test of Faith actually compares very well as a power based version to Purging Flames. FoF is great we agree. LJ can’t really get much added to it, vuln and reveal are strong support options. Dragons Maw is nasty if it catches someone, and there’s not really much that could conceivably be added to it.

Traps aren’t perfect yet, but they aren’t based around boon support or healing. Traps are designed to hamper the enemy, which is currently what they’re all doing.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Black Box.9312:

It’s a hypothetical response to a proposition that assumes that a good player would take traps in the first place. The good player could take the traps, but in practice the good player won’t take the traps.

This ^ exactly.

Why take a trap that only does damage when you can take a meditation that can

1: Heal you
2: Give you fury
Then do 1 of the following

1: Do damage (physical or condition based)
2: Remove a condition (or convert them into boons)
3: Stun break and teleport you to your target.

Traps have to offer something more then just damage.

Fragments of faith is a perfect example of this. It deals damage, cripples and offers AEGIS to allies.

The other traps need to do one of the following at base depending on the trap

1: Apply bleeds
2: Apply boon support
3: Cleanse conditions

And their trait needs to do something to help keep enemies within their radius much the way the ranger trait “Trappers expertise does for rangers”

A good player would know what kind of situation is best to use traps. Mediations are not a be all end all skill. Boon support and the like are not the purview of traps. Healing Spring is different because it’s 1) a healing skill and 2) converted from not being a trap. Thieves also have traps, and instead of creating a trap heal, they made a trait to place a trap similar to our mediation on heal.

Purification actually is a good candidate for condition removal (only because it’s a healing skill and its called purification). Procession of Blades would be well served with either natively having bleed and/or a whirl finisher. Test of Faith actually compares very well as a power based version to Purging Flames. FoF is great we agree. LJ can’t really get much added to it, vuln and reveal are strong support options. Dragons Maw is nasty if it catches someone, and there’s not really much that could conceivably be added to it.

Traps aren’t perfect yet, but they aren’t based around boon support or healing. Traps are designed to hamper the enemy, which is currently what they’re all doing.

Never said that each trap should do all of those things, as far as hampering enemies they really don’t do it enough to justify their use.

So if you look at each trap individually they could each stand to do something more

Purification: They could stand to split the heal in half and have it AOE clear some conditions. (possibly apply AOE regeneration as the second part of the heal)

Light’s Judgment: The reveal is nice as is the vulnerability. The damage however is extremely low. (either up the damage dramatically or lower the CD as other classes have reveal on a much lower CD)

Test of Faith: Really needs some work. If they made it pulse burns (as a fire field) to enemies inside the field or grant might to allies inside the field it would be great. (As is it gives no reason to make enemies want to leave its radius)

Procession of Blades: A couple whirl finishers could be nice, but bleeds would be better.

Dragons Maw: Is alright, but the Cd is a bit long given it only effects 1 target. (make it a bit bigger and make it effect multiple targets)

draxynnic.3719:

The guardian already has utilities that are useful at range. Consecrations, signets, shouts, and spirit weapons are all useful at range (or at least no less useful at range than in melee, with the exception of a couple of consecrations which still provide some benefit at range).

If longbow as a weapon isn’t worthwhile, then the problem is with the longbow, not with the traps – and that seems to be where Karl’s attention has focused. No profession should have to rely on utilities as their primary offensive weapon. Enhancing and supplementing it, yes, but if the weapon is bad, it’s the weapon that needs to be improved.

Also, even though the bow and minors are focused towards longer ranges, you still get a weaponswap as a dragonhunter, and that weaponswap is likely to be melee on most builds, I expect. You could use the traps as traps, or you could jump in with a melee weapon and treat them effectively as PBAoEs by dropping them at your feet. So you can, in fact, treat the traps just like the ranger does, as long as the longbow is up to scratch.

If the longbow isn’t up to scratch… again, the problem there rests with the weapon being poor, not the utilities.

Hi again I quote your text because there must be some people or devs that share your opinions and I hope to prove you wrong and hopefully convince you why the utilities are where we should focus.

As others have pointed out before me, your statement in defence is very strong:
1. Utilities: consecrations, signets, shouts and spirit weapon all work Equally at range.
2. Implying that either all these are equally powered or at least powerful enough to be balanced. And that we have any dps utilities at all in these categories.

Let me tackle them backwards:
Spirit Weapons:
1. They are minions that have very little health and a limited lifespan in time. If we cast them at 600-1200 range it will take (no calculations) 6 out of 30 seconds for travel time.
Hence dps is reduced by 20%, or even more likely they get focus fired without even arriving, whereas in melee at least they will get some attacks in on summon.
2. Spirit weapons are grossly undertuned with no representation in DPS specs. That is why some have called for their buff as our ranged utilities, perhaps summon at target.

Shouts:
1. The fact that you list this implies you have not done your research, shouts have a 600 range so of course they are worse at range, in this game there always has to be someone at melee, so at minimum you are losing him as a target, at worst you are alone and then why have it as a shout at all.
2. 3 out of 4 shouts are utilities only used in dungeons for swift and stability. Save Yourselves has never been any use in DPS Builds because it does nearly nothing.

Signets:
1. Granted this probably the Only category that holds some truth because our god awful signets are just stats, however our elite signets is only 300 range on healing, and the buff signet is only 600 range, so if you run a “signet dragon hunter” you still won’t be able to “support from the back line”……
2. Need I say anything here, we have probably the worst stated signets and nearly no trait interactions that I am aware of. God awful…

Consecrations:
1. Finally the category that holds the one skill that is truely equal at range, Purging flames but the rest are utility skills, reflects, and stabilities which you now can’t target your whole team because you are far away.
2. Consecrations are actually pretty competitive and purging flames and wall will probably be the only useful skills on the dragon hunter bar.

Conclusion:
You probably didn’t think all the skills through properly when making your statement and for you it is forgivable but for Karl it is not, he needs to sit down and really write a reply to this topic because:
For 3 years guardians have been Actively discouraged to move outside of 600 range and now creating a elite that asks you to stay outside 600 and then gives you no tools to do that is ridiculous!

Devs asked for well written explainations of problems (please ignore my outbursts) and suggested solutions:
1. Remove the 600+ trait and accept that longbow is just an Option to hit from range but will never be good from there. (Guardian and all its elite specs should Never leave 600 range, most would riot in my honest opinion)
2. Buff at least a few more skills to work Equally and Well from range. Eg. Spirit weapons summoned at range/survivability, signets actives(need massive overhaul buff), 1200 range shouts. (Maybe each of these suggestions could have a trait in the elite line)
3. Give our Dragon Hunter more tools to be at range. So what if they are similar to marks or grenades or other things, let us deploy traps to 900 range is still best solution.
Travel time makes them worst than marks, invisibility if not triggered makes them better.
And by restricting accessibility with “traps have 900 range when wielding a longbow” we can make them worse than grenades.

I hope this post contains all the conclusions people have made recently, I think every suggestion here really does fall into one of the three above categories, but I of course understand that I do not speak for everyone.

PS. I think the longbow is already balanced since much more will make it competitive with melee weapons even discounting the 10% range buff.

TL;DR: Longbow just feels boring to play with no utilities, that is my main concern.
Every Dragon Hunter is still a Guardian and Guardians have to stay within 600 range not due to weapon design but due to utility design. So since Dragon Hunter specific utility is still melee range, Dragon Hunters are left with NO utilities.