Guild Wars 2

Arken.3725:

You do realize that the Elementalist is a better bunker class than the Guardian and also has quite a bit of access to cripples. Where’s the balance there?

i’ve yet to see a “bunker” Elementalist, going into the heat and surviving more than 3-4’’. There is no such think as bunker Elementalist. Its only called bunker because it has high endurance compared to a non-bunker Elementalist, but falls down faster than saying hello.

Assuming we are talking to elementalist vs multi that is.

Bottom line, you just cant keep the capabilities of a race car and at the same time being as comfy as a limo.

So far the sum of the conversation is “Hey im in God mode (cant die) but ppl get away from me”.
On the other side of the horizon, there are tons of classes with cripples and gap closers who cant stay alive long enough to actually kill a Guardian. They only change is to run away and bring some friends.

Guardians don’t put out much damage. We all know this. We don’t have burst either. I am fine with that. Guardians instead get heals/defense. But the thing that drives me nuts is when you are fighting people, they flee.

Example, lets say its 5v5 at a supply camp. You engage, you start chasing a squishy, he cripples you, and runs, you break the cripple and use mightyblow or leap to catch him. you then get crippled by something else, you are forced to eat the cripple or use JI, say you use JI to get back to him at this point he healed. so you have to put damage back on him again. Now all your toys are on CD so if he cripples you again or teleports, well, you might as well pick another target.

The point is, we lack utility when it comes to CC. Don’t tell me our immobilizes are good, they are a joke. Zealots embrace on the hammer is good for about 200-300 range, beyond that, it never hits its target. Ring of warding, well they just dodge roll through and that one is a bust, then we are down to what? Signets? who uses those, if you are using the signets to CC you are sacrificing your survivability big time.

No one is arguing the Guardians survivability. Just if we want to spec offensively, it’s very difficult to keep your target close.

True, I agree it’s strange. And having it would be amazing, but I guess I’m more of just saying we can make due without it for now and since we don’t have those options right now, I’m trying to figure out the best way to combat the weaker areas of the Guardian. But by all means, crippling/stunning people would be pretty fun. Especially if we can banish them right after!

Hm, not saying my build is great, but I feel like my 10/5/30/20/5 build is pretty solid with berkserker gear/zerk upgrades/rune of lyssa combo. Great offense, defense, regen, condition removal, and stun breakers. But I do admit I’m not a PvP kind of guy, so I could be entirely wrong for everything I’ve known to believe haha. I appreciate all news anyways I just like experiencing it for myself which is hard to find in my luck with WvW ventures.

Oh hey skudder, I forgot to ask, do you prefer to use any specific weapons? jw.

I stopped putting points into zeal, even if fiery wrath is decent. I’ve found 30 in Valor to be a must regardless of build. Depending on who or what i’m fighting, i’d also put 30 in honor for Pure of Voice( helps against the condition thieves) with 5 in both radiance and virtues.

We have already tons of stuff to catch kiters.

But I’m using sigil of hydraumancy on both weapons to cripple ennemies, I feel already kitten overpowered in WvW no need to give more cripple to guardians.

If an enemy hits you with Cripple and walks away, he’s out of melee range.

My WvW build runs truly absurd amounts of Condition Removal, but neither you nor automatic removal is going to act within the split second where you’re still in melee with your target.

When pursuing somebody, they don’t NEED to cripple you for more than that split second; once you’re out of 170 range your damage is gone.
At this point, you need to remove cripple or wait it out, then blow a gap closer. If they use an escape skill or cripple you again, that’s that, they’re gone.

Swiftness is more helpful to our enemies than it is us. Staff’s the only weapon we possess with it, and its duration isn’t very long. Switching mid pursuit to refresh it is generally not a good idea.
Retreat/Save Yourselves have heavy 48/60s cooldowns, and take up valuable utility slots. But then, if your opponent is also using swiftness, then you’re not gaining ground regardless.
If you DON’T have Swiftness, you’re basically autocrippled compared to a class that has easier access to Swiftness.

To refresh the discussion I would like ask a question to those who think that guardian is super gap closer, player catcher, inevitable doom and others…
Just for fun think about it other way: what would guardian do if he wants to run from somebody?

I know that nobody here ever runs from a fight and kill every oponent, but make me a pleasure – let it be just theoretical, so i will ask again:
How does guardian run from other ppl?

The Guardian has almost zero escape mechanisms. You can’t teleport away from someone, the only thing you have is leap of faith in your opponents opposite direction. That’s it.

Edit: As a Guardian, once you’re committed to a fight, you’re not going away unless you win or die.

Build, probably have to copy paste to get it to work:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAS8elYg67GHSLEfIFSuA7DAEmCMC+ueQRYIDB;TkAqsMZJyymlLLZWrLGWsFB

If i want to run, I use hammer skill 4 then save yourselves and run in the opposite direction. That pushes a target 750 away from you.

i think you’re all crazy. it’s been very obvious from the beginning that they’ve been allowing guardians gap closers and roots only sparingly. i doubt any classes ability to really go toe to toe with a guardian in the face and come out on top, unless it’s a mesmer specifically configured to destroy melee and nothing else (which are really common I guess, but more cripples are not going to stop them lol… if anything, i agree we might need some sort of disengage, since we completely lack anything like that). Guardians can mitigate tons of damage and dish out healthy portions to the places nearby. It’s keeping badguys nearby that becomes the game. This is a game of land control, not 1 v 1, and it seems to me very obvious that the guardian is more suited to locking down a particular area. If you’re just blindly chasing some dood because you want them to die you’re probably not doing what’s best for your team. You have the advantage as a guardian because ultimately if they want your position they have to bring the fight to you. Imagine if the a bunker guardian could keep you from getting out of his bunker even more efficiently. Do you seriously want that?

I’m sorry it just sounds like “these guys are pissing me off by running away!!!!!!!! i want to kill them!!! give me cripples!!” and then a bunch of numberless proofless flowcharts of your own theorygames. guardians, as several subtler posters have mentioned, struggle with escape mechanics themselves. They don’t have great speed buffs (Symbol of Swif has to be targeted and cast), they don’t have great stun breaks. Do they really need to be chasing opponents indefinitely? Getting pulled into traps they can’t get out of? This game is about land control, if you’re opponent has to retreat, you’ve won a small victory.

Everything about the design smacks that this was very much intentional on ANet’s part. It fits in with the mechanical and artistic theme of the guardian as a defensive powerhouse. A defensive powerhouse that can MAKE you fight it is, in fact, an offensive powerhouse. Contrast it with the warrior, who is better at making you fight but will very rarely be as difficult to kill.

edit Leap of Faith, currently, has terrible functionality, at least in PvE. They’ve promised us fixes how many times now? but it still routinely falls well short of my target, ESPECIALLY if the target is not an actually mob (AC Graveling burrows, a big for-instance). This is probably a key element in pursuit and if it’s bugging in PvP too I feel your pain. I also wouldn’t mind a trait or something that gave it a brief immobilize (immoblize on blind? that’d be sick… dunno how else it’d impact though), but it at least needs to work the way it’s supposed to.

kuroi.5467:

i think you’re all crazy. it’s been very obvious from the beginning that they’ve been allowing guardians gap closers and roots only sparingly. i doubt any classes ability to really go toe to toe with a guardian in the face and come out on top, unless it’s a mesmer specifically configured to destroy melee and nothing else (which are really common I guess, but more cripples are not going to stop them lol… if anything, i agree we might need some sort of disengage, since we completely lack anything like that). Guardians can mitigate tons of damage and dish out healthy portions to the places nearby. It’s keeping badguys nearby that becomes the game. This is a game of land control, not 1 v 1, and it seems to me very obvious that the guardian is more suited to locking down a particular area. If you’re just blindly chasing some dood because you want them to die you’re probably not doing what’s best for your team. You have the advantage as a guardian because ultimately if they want your position they have to bring the fight to you. Imagine if the a bunker guardian could keep you from getting out of his bunker even more efficiently. Do you seriously want that?

I’m sorry it just sounds like “these guys are pissing me off by running away!!!!!!!! i want to kill them!!! give me cripples!!” and then a bunch of numberless proofless flowcharts of your own theorygames. guardians, as several subtler posters have mentioned, struggle with escape mechanics themselves. They don’t have great speed buffs (Symbol of Swif has to be targeted and cast), they don’t have great stun breaks. Do they really need to be chasing opponents indefinitely? Getting pulled into traps they can’t get out of? This game is about land control, if you’re opponent has to retreat, you’ve won a small victory.

Everything about the design smacks that this was very much intentional on ANet’s part. It fits in with the mechanical and artistic theme of the guardian as a defensive powerhouse. A defensive powerhouse that can MAKE you fight it is, in fact, an offensive powerhouse. Contrast it with the warrior, who is better at making you fight but will very rarely be as difficult to kill.

edit Leap of Faith, currently, has terrible functionality, at least in PvE. They’ve promised us fixes how many times now? but it still routinely falls well short of my target, ESPECIALLY if the target is not an actually mob (AC Graveling burrows, a big for-instance). This is probably a key element in pursuit and if it’s bugging in PvP too I feel your pain. I also wouldn’t mind a trait or something that gave it a brief immobilize (immoblize on blind? that’d be sick… dunno how else it’d impact though), but it at least needs to work the way it’s supposed to.

Again, the difference between PvP and WvWvW is your post, it is obvious you are a PvPer. In WvWvW guardians get to do nothing while attacking / defending a keep/tower for the most part. This is why I stick to supply camp defending. Plain and simple, its a melee only class, it needs better melee CC.

In PvP who cares if someone runs away, its about points and control. In WvWvW if you dont finish off that player, he runs out of the fight heals and comes back to aid his buddies. You win by downing more players, and when you cannot chase, or keep players near you long enough to smack them with your melee weapon…. eventually you lose. I get way more badges on my thief then my guardian.

The main difference here is you are use to people being forced to try to defeat you in PvP to cap the CP, and there is no real consequence to death, they do not have to run very far. In WvWvW if you die in the open, sometimes its a very long run back.

monochrome.9841:

To refresh the discussion I would like ask a question to those who think that guardian is super gap closer, player catcher, inevitable doom and others…
Just for fun think about it other way: what would guardian do if he wants to run from somebody?

I know that nobody here ever runs from a fight and kill every oponent, but make me a pleasure – let it be just theoretical, so i will ask again:
How does guardian run from other ppl?

Escape is tricky for me, but as long as there is a target monster within sight I can JI, renewed focus, leap of faith and sword flash (given another further target) out of there. I actually did this when overwhelmed by a warrior and thief.

Edit: Also as long as you get outside combat, you can wp to the nearest wp you have.

Arken.3725:

The Guardian has almost zero escape mechanisms. You can’t teleport away from someone, the only thing you have is leap of faith in your opponents opposite direction. That’s it.

Edit: As a Guardian, once you’re committed to a fight, you’re not going away unless you win or die.

I agree, our gap closers cannot be used as much of a gap creator—but JI can be used in certain situations to get out along with sword flash. (but most people don’t use gs/sword) haha

if this is mainly about wvw i’ve lost nearly all my interest, but i’m still fairly certain this is exactly what ANet has planned so i doubt this’ll really go anywhere, and i have little to no WvW experience. I don’t even play sPvP that often, I’m a PvE dungeon runner through and through at the moment. but i believe my points all still stand 100% for sPvP and PvE, and honestly feel they stand largely for WvWvW but i’m sure you and your experience will contradict me. It’s still point defense and capture, the scale is just bigger. And i still feel like you’re treating the guardian like it’s a DPS only thing. Shouts, Empower, Shield of the Avenger, etc, will turn a team into monsters even if you yourself never fire a shot. Maybe this isn’t viable at all in Wv3, i wouldn’t know. Is there never a melee defending situation? Is your ability to lock down a chokepoint or room really never implemented? because if so it sounds a lot more like Wv3 logistical problems than guardian specific problems. I feel like if I was defending a besieged anything the guardian would be my go-to class. But maybe that’s not how Wv3 actually plays out.

Tryble.6819:

If an enemy hits you with Cripple and walks away, he’s out of melee range.

My WvW build runs truly absurd amounts of Condition Removal, but neither you nor automatic removal is going to act within the split second where you’re still in melee with your target.

When pursuing somebody, they don’t NEED to cripple you for more than that split second; once you’re out of 170 range your damage is gone.
At this point, you need to remove cripple or wait it out, then blow a gap closer. If they use an escape skill or cripple you again, that’s that, they’re gone.

Swiftness is more helpful to our enemies than it is us. Staff’s the only weapon we possess with it, and its duration isn’t very long. Switching mid pursuit to refresh it is generally not a good idea.
Retreat/Save Yourselves have heavy 48/60s cooldowns, and take up valuable utility slots. But then, if your opponent is also using swiftness, then you’re not gaining ground regardless.
If you DON’T have Swiftness, you’re basically autocrippled compared to a class that has easier access to Swiftness.

Hm, crippling twice sounds pretty rough. Do you know what’s the cd before they can start it again? And what utilities do you use? I think swiftness is pretty useful imo due to aegis and swiftness. And gaining ground is done by JI, leapoffaith, sword flash. As long as you can get beside the person, you can hit them, or knock them down really quick to catch up even more. Shield #5 is pretty good to use when the enemy is annoyingly right outside of blade range. Also, I feel like condition removal is common for most Guardians? Is Pure of Voice not helpful? or rune of the soldier? jw I never use that, My only sources are combo finisher light with whirl, elite skill (due to rune of lyssa), and signet of resolve’s passive effect along with a valor trait to remove conditions every 10 seconds. It seems to work fine for me.

I tend to use two 2h weapons since the 2h weapon mastery works wonders.

The cd’s on a lot of cripples are faster than our condition removals.(unless you have a ton of methods specced)

Are we going to go on the same crap as WoW forums?
Everyone asking for the stuff other classes/professions have?

Each profession has a certain type of mechanics, boons and conditions.
If you give Guardian Cripple, you give Warrior Aegis, and it all goes apekitten.

Want to make good suggestions?
Instead of asking Guardians to fight like Warriors, suggest stuff to make Guardians be better at what they do.

Arken.3725:

The cd’s on a lot of cripples are faster than our condition removals.(unless you have a ton of methods specced)

Keep in mind, conditional removal, poisons, bleeds, vuln, cripple, chill, etc, more then likely you have multiple on you all the time so the chances of you getting rid of cripple are slim.

Our conditional removal:
skills:
signet of resolve: 1 condition / 10s (as long as the signet is not used)
smite condition: 1 condition / 20s
purging flames: all conditions / 40s

weapons:
ray of judgement: 1 condition / 25s

runes
6 Piece sup rune of solider: 1 condition / shout

traits
radiance IX: using signets cure 1 conditions.
virtues: IX: using VoR cures 3 condtions (60s CD 45 Traited)

Actually now that i break it down, our conditional removal really isn’t that great.

Now in comparison to enemy conditions:
Warrior:
Greatsword:
-1- every 1/2s = vuln stack
-4- 4s cripple every 15s

Hammer:
-2- 8s weakness every 12s
-3- 7s cripple every 12s

Bow:
-2- 6s burning every 6s
-4-5s blindness every 15s
-5- 3s immobilze every 25s
-f1-10s burning every 10s

Rifle:
-1- 6s bleed every 1/2s
-2- 5s cripple every 10s
-4- 10s vuln every 15s

Axe:
-2- 8s vuln every 6s
-3- 4s cripple every 10s
… and so on, this is just the weapons, doesn’t even count the traits or skills.

Honestly every profession is similar so not going to look them all up. They can dish out conditions extremely fast.

Nurvus.2891:

Are we going to go on the same crap as WoW forums?
Everyone asking for the stuff other classes/professions have?

Each profession has a certain type of mechanics, boons and conditions.
If you give Guardian Cripple, you give Warrior Aegis, and it all goes apekitten.

Want to make good suggestions?
Instead of asking Guardians to fight like Warriors, suggest stuff to make Guardians be better at what they do.

I have been, I am asking for glacial heart to be buffed to work with all weapons, and have a CD more like 10-15s. It honestly does not make sense why every single profession has cripples/ not to mention way more conditions on base melee abilities.

I see nothing wrong with asking for an ability/skill that every other profession possesses. As of right now it’s near-impossible to keep your target within a symbol for more than maybe a second so why not add a cripple to them?

Yeah, after see the discussion about the lack of ranged weapon, i reply here.
Its true, we lack of controls, to force the opponent to stay on our attack range, and even if we have something to bind or reach di enemy, theese thing cannot fulfill at best role of controlling the enemy…
The name of our class is guardian, so i think is natural For us to control our ground(simbols can be a perfect trademark of this phylosophy) , and force the enemy to stay on melee range. Things like wall of reflection, are good protection, but are avoidable, have a long CD and the enemy can simply walk throug it and continue to shot.
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I dont know if random thing like glacial earth can be good for our class, i made a a thread about, but i change my mind when the others player make me notice the huge luck dependance of my idea.
I agree if devs have decide that Guardian are a melee only class , i love melee combat, but we need some kind of controls on our weapons, all the other classes are plenty of mechanincs for control others and disengage from combat (with fast CD) so why guardians have only some option? and a lot of our option have a cd >30sec?
I trade all my retaliation for some kind of more active mechanic/control