Guild Wars 2

Brutaly.6257:

Obtena.7952:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

I can almost agree with you, but one problem is that Medi is not THAT good. It is just good, and that makes it a better offensive build than our other options.

Regardless of what level of good you want to put it at, it’s still our standard and everything is still balanced around it. Therefore …

This!!!

Medi/AH isnt that good.

The issue is that EVERY COMPETITIVE wvw and pvp build revolve around them.

This reduces build diversity and the fun in playing the profession.
Its easier to nerf one/two trait (monks focus/AH) and improve our healing (an example) skills than buffing ALL our utilities and still dont address the underlying issue.

I get it that some dont like their working builds to be messed up but if not, nothing will really change since Anet wont have the metrics or experience to properly understand whats really wrong with guardian.

It doesnt matter if:

We get faster casting on signets
Get to keep the passive on signet when on CD
Increase vit on spirit weapons
Increase size of Sanctuary,

All has been suggested but non of them would change the fact that medi/AH is mandatory in wvw and pvp. Not even if you combine them!!!

Nerf medi/ah and after that correct the real issue.

Your implying that the issue is with the core of the class, and not the mechanic of the skills. I believe our skills should reflect and circumvent our core weaknesses with active play. Shouts and meditations succeed in this, and most of our other skills fail, making builds centered around them sub-par.

You could add a 2k heal to all our skills and medi build would still be the preferred burst damage build. Spirit weapons with a 2k heal would still be bad. Most signets with a 2k heal would still be bad. Most censecrations with a 2k heal would still be super-situational. It’s the nature of the skill set, not the heal.

Medi Guards were around before the heal was quite as large, before the added fury, and before the skills were inherently instant cast. The additions were needed to make the skillset more viable against other classes burst (guards don’t exist in a vacuum) and gave Guards a new way to play the class.

This can be done now with the other skillsets, IF the devs decide to focus on them like they focused on Medi’s. AH and Shouts make support guards more tanky even with a low health pool. Med heal gives burst guards a chance to survive long enough to get their damage off without making them too tanky (excellent trade of damage/utility for heal). There is still room for a non-support based Tank build, a sustained damage brawler build, a quick skirmish build (Dragonhunter could fit here).

This can be done now by altering the current weak skills and skill set traits to overcome our inherent weaknesses, and it would be easy enough to balance it due to limitations on the number of skills and traits you can have at one time. If signets become as strong as meds, so what? To equip a signet you would have to drop a med. To gain the full benefit of the skill you would likely also have to trait for it. Traiting into two skill sets means you likely had to give something more universal up.

This seems a far easier way to balance to me than alter the core of our class and expect there to be no conflicts with every other skill and trait we currently possess.

Because of Guards low health pool, melee centered nature, and low mobility, we must make a choice on what to sacrifice. Do we remain squishy to deal damage? Do we trade damage for sustain? Do we trait against condi or do we trait for mobility? Dragonhunter could negate the melee centered aspect, and that will open new questions as to what to sacrifice for it. It needs to be worth it.

This is the question that should be asked when creating skills like traps or alter existing skills, How does my sacrifice supplement my weaknesses? Is it worth it?

Currently, it’s how do traps make my Guardian stronger? What do I need to sacrifice for them? And are they worth it?

Obtena.7952:

The comparison here isn’t with other professions so yes, medi is very good.

This would be a good point… If we were playing a game with exclusively Guardians.

We’re not. We have 8 other classes to account for, and yes, they ALL need to be accounted for when working with balancing.

Arken.3725:

Solid suggestions Reborn. I can get behind the WoR change but why not just make the shield on courage closer to the Guardian so it actually blocks all attacks in front of them?

Actually, what I intended by my statement was that SoC should be updated (as Karl suggested they were planning to do) so that it blocks all attacks (both melee and ranged) in the area it covers, which would fix that problem (i.e., it will block melee attacks from the front, but not the sides or back). So we’re in agreement on that. But then, I think it should also include a baseline knockback, to make it really feel like something new is happening. Either aoe on cast, or else when it blocks a melee attack with an appropriate ICD. Compared to most of the other stuff going around, that hardly seems too powerful, especially when you consider its absurdly long cooldown and the DH’s general lack of survival and self-help abilities.

So, I appreciate the ongoing Meditation/other trait lines conversation going on here, and it’s one that’s probably worth having, but shouldn’t somebody make a separate topic about that? I realize that it does relate in general terms to the DH spec, as well, but for the most part it’s almost entirely off-topic here, and for a developer (or player) scrolling through here for actual DH changes feedback, it must be sort of distracting and somewhat irrelevant. Could we all try to stay on-topic, in terms of hoped-for DH changes? I, at least, am highly excited about the class and its potential, but there are still several things that I would love to see happen, in order for it to actually realize that potential.

Back on-topic — A couple serious current DH problems:

• Not to sound like a cross-profession complainer (because I do realize that different classes function — and therefore balance — differently), but for goodness’ sakes, the Daredevil has a Master tier trait that cleanses a condition every time he evades an attack — and easy access to practically unlimited evades!!! Why in the world do we have to use a Grandmaster tier trait to remove a condition only when we block an attack, which is far less frequently and easily available, even to a Guardian, than evade is to basically anybody, particularly a Daredevil Thief??

• Am I the only one who has noticed that the new “place a Fragments of Faith trap when you are controlled” trait will do more to mock you than help you? If you’ve been controlled, then in almost all situations you can’t move. And since FoF is still not a stunbreak, all that this trait will accomplish is to fling a whole bunch of glittering shards of aegis around you where you cannot get them, because you’re busy being controlled and can’t move.

Therefore…

1. Hunter’s Fortification, as I’ve said already, should most certainly be merged with Bulwark in the Master tier. And, honestly, instead of Bulwark granting increased size and longer duration, it really would be much nicer if it granted 20% recharge reduction to Shield of Courage. Would anyone else favor more frequent use of SoC over longer duration? I know I certainly would.
2. Wings of Resolve really would make an excellent stun-break for us, and it would fit the animation, the idea for the skill, and the theme of the DH and the role WoR plays there really well. Then, either Fragments of Faith needs to be a stunbreak (and the fragments should definitely each cleanse a condition on pick-up), or else (if WoR’s base functionality is changed to being a stun-break) the trait should become: “When you are controlled, your Wings of Resolve virtue is recharged.”
3. Alternatively, since Guardians already have access to a “this useful defensive thing happens when you are controlled” trait in a different line, I would really much rather see something different and unique and more fitting for the DH’s theme in the DH spec line. Like, for instance, “Whenever you strike a crippled foe, you inflict bleeding.” Or, possibly, “Placing a trap grants you swiftness and removes movement-impeding conditions.”

Thoughts? Agree/Disagree?

I like the merge of Hunter’s fort with Bulwark. What about making it a GM but also changing the 10% damage reduction to when you have a condition on you. The other way around never made much sense to me.

Arken.3725:

I like the merge of Hunter’s fort with Bulwark. What about making it a GM but also changing the 10% damage reduction to when you have a condition on you. The other way around never made much sense to me.

It still will be a boring and weak GM trait, and it won’t really fit the class. Plus, forcing us to waste a GM trait slot just to have a tiny bit of condition cleanse is a terrible idea (again, compare that, for instance, to the Daredevil or Warrior options, which are far more powerful and, at least in the Thief’s case, lower tier). As a means of buffing the SoC active (which is unique to the Dragonhunter) and a Master tier condition cleanse, it’s great. As a Grandmaster, it’s terrible — in part because we should be using that third GM slot for a powerful trap-related trait — since traps, rather than defense and damage reduction, are actually one of the things the DH spec is supposed to focus on.

Remember, that DH is supposed to be a (ranged) damage and area control spec, focused on crippling and hunting down large, powerful opponents — having too large or powerful a portion of the trait line dedicated to things like outright damage reduction is unnecessary and runs entirely counter to the whole purpose of the Dragonhunter. Guardians already have primarily defensive trait lines, and while future elite specs may add to that, the DH should definitely not. It’s not that there shouldn’t be any self-preservation or utility here (because of course there should be), it’s just that if we try to devote too much or too important of a space to it (or if we do it in the wrong way, like with flat damage reductions), then we will continue to have the same problem the DH traits have had so far, which is a complete lack of focus and clarity.

We need to focus on the Dragonhunter’s purpose and strengths, and find ways to make the traits center around that, rather than trying to make it go in all of the different vanilla Guardian directions at once.

@RebornbyFire
The devs really should read your post/ideas. It would be great that karl post more often on this topic to let us know what he think about our thought/ideas

The DH strengths are Virtues, Bow and traps. Nothing wrong with encompassing some defense into virtues as you’ve stated above. It would be nice to somewhere fit a trait to allow the passive aspect of virtue’s to remain.

Long Bow: There have been some incredibly positive changes being implemented.

Traps: I’m very biased against traps since they’re very much against promoting player skill and instead relying on your enemy to screw up instead.

Traits: We’ve mostly covered traits within this discussion ever since Karl graced us with his presence and gave us some insight into the proposed changes. A lot of solid suggestions have been touted throughout this thread. I’ll just reiterate some of my own and others who I’ve believed have been spot on.

Hunter’s fort merged with Bulwark makes sense. I still am not 100% sure on the ICD for the condition removal on block since it happens sparingly. Also not a fan of the 10% damage reduction while NOT having a condition. If anything change it when you do have a condition.

Wings of Resolve(soaring devastation) could help make it an evasion. What about a leap/blast finisher?

Dulled senses: Instead of vuln applied to your target, why not grant the Guardian swiftness?

BGH: I still think that as a GM, this needs to be 15% instead of 10, just my opinion.

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

The comparison here isn’t with other professions so yes, medi is very good.

This would be a good point… If we were playing a game with exclusively Guardians.

We’re not. We have 8 other classes to account for, and yes, they ALL need to be accounted for when working with balancing.

… Adjusting the medi heals on Guardian only gives devs MORE incentive to put other goodness elsewhere in the Guardian traits to maintain the balance among classes AND provide build diversity.

If you don’t want medi with LB combo:
-25% movement speed while wielding longbow (we are hunters, we need speed to finish wounded animal – or dragon )
-succesful activation of traps heals you for 2-3k+ gives 2 sec of regen
- if players dodge trap user gets protection for 5 sec
-virtue of resolve + evasion + stunbreak+water field where it lands or maybe a swiftness for 3 sec

Arken.3725:

Hunter’s fort merged with Bulwark makes sense. I still am not 100% sure on the ICD for the condition removal on block since it happens sparingly. Also not a fan of the 10% damage reduction while NOT having a condition. If anything change it when you do have a condition.

Wings of Resolve(soaring devastation) could help make it an evasion. What about a leap/blast finisher?

Dulled senses: Instead of vuln applied to your target, why not grant the Guardian swiftness?

Swiftness each time you cripple a foe in adept trait sounds like pretty much op to me even if it is 1s duration, first they should add kd, pull and launch to the list atleast to improve the synergy with other weapons. but having a way to gain swiftness it will be great.

I will suggest something like “Heavy Light (10s ICD): True Shot and Deflecting Shot knock back enemies that are within the range threshold. Swiftness (7.5s) when you knock an enemy back in this fashion”

The problem with Hunter’s Fortification (with the old and the new ) is that doesnt really fit in the trap trait line we should have a grandmaster trap trait not just another grandmaster virtue trait

Very well could be Noctis but i’d love to test it so we can verify. The whole “First in, last out” only works if you’re essentially as tanky as a D/D ele while also putting out significant damage. This obviously doesn’t happen. If Anet wants to keep Guardian’s slow then compensation needs to be made for significant sustain since your ability to retreat is non-existent. It’s the whole reason why when you’re in a fight as a Guardian, you MUST win or you die, you cannot run away.

Arken.3725:

Very well could be Noctis but i’d love to test it so we can verify. The whole “First in, last out” only works if you’re essentially as tanky as a D/D ele while also putting out significant damage. This obviously doesn’t happen. If Anet wants to keep Guardian’s slow then compensation needs to be made for significant sustain since your ability to retreat is non-existent. It’s the whole reason why when you’re in a fight as a Guardian, you MUST win or you die, you cannot run away.

Sustain is a sci fi for guardians, even bigger sci fi then run out from combat.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

The comparison here isn’t with other professions so yes, medi is very good.

This would be a good point… If we were playing a game with exclusively Guardians.

We’re not. We have 8 other classes to account for, and yes, they ALL need to be accounted for when working with balancing.

… Adjusting the medi heals on Guardian only gives devs MORE incentive to put other goodness elsewhere in the Guardian traits to maintain the balance among classes AND provide build diversity.

Except they won’t do that. When has Anet ever compensated elsewhere for a nerf they’ve given us? The only thing I can think of is the spec change a month ago, but they did that for everyone, let alone the fact that we actually lost more than we gained (especially regarding damage potential). Guardians have seen an overwhelming number of nerfs in comparison to buffs, and I can almost guarantee that they won’t give us anything in return for eliminating the viability of the one traitline that we can actually depend on to help us stay alive in fights, especially since we can’t run from them anyway because of a bullkitten “first in, last out” philosophy that is completely counteractive in a game where any other class can simply run away from a fight that they’re not winning.

Back before the original buff to the healing value on Monk’s Focus nobody used meditations. You’re basically asking for the build to be put to rest, when instead you could be asking for stronger alternatives that don’t force us to build our sustain around our utility skills and a GM trait in Valor. It’s pretty evident that you can’t successfully build a Guardian without either AH or MF, since there hasn’t been a single meta build since LAUNCH other than Healway (which, ironically enough, was quickly nerfed hard with no compensation) that doesn’t take one of those two traits.

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received, which is simply not going to happen. We can’t kite successfully, we can’t chain CC successfully, and we can’t outrun our enemies successfully, so our only option left is to out-sustain them, and a 4.5k heal on our lowest healing skill cooldown of 30s is just not nearly enough to do that, especially on a low HP pool.

“We are removing Bleeding on traps and Burning on symbol”

Seems like my condi guard will never be. It’s sad, considering a condi guardian was really fun to play on last beta.

gael.4926:

“We are removing Bleeding on traps and Burning on symbol”

Seems like my condi guard will never be. It’s sad, considering a condi guardian was really fun to play on last beta.

I actually spoke to Roy about this on Friday (Karl wasn’t there, but they all work on balance changes together apparently). I asked him to keep condition guardians in mind when making further changes. He said they might be able to work in something condition-related elsewhere.

I hope that they will. Right now, DH doesn’t seem like a very good fit for a condition build.

its sad that the changes arent rolled out for next BWE. i think these are great changes, but to truely test them we need to play it. Playing DH in the next BWE makes no sense bc most of its gonna change anyway so giving feedback to it is kinda useless. I know you guys have alot to do but i would really appreciate if we could already see the changes next weekend

We should collectively work together to address the biggest problem facing Dragonhunters: Traps.

Karl has acknowledged Longbow, Virtues and Traits, and while those things are not perfect they have the basic ground works in place.

Traps on the other-hand are in a desperate need for a redesign. They are the most useless skills in the game and we must now amp up the pressure to see these skills changed before launch.

For example, ‘Test of Faith’ is currently the worst trap, now with the recent changes giving us access to even more cripple this Trap is significantly worse. Who would ever sacrifice a skill slot for a horribly gimmicky cripple when we can get cripples from Justice passive.

‘Procession of Blades’ is just a slightly higher dps ‘Whirling Wrath’ except it’s on a much higher cool-down, can’t be moved, and isn’t a Whirl Finisher.

‘Purification’, No one will ever use this. Shelter and Littany of Wrath for Medi guards is just to strong. I suggest making ‘Fragments of Faith’ the heal. Shelter being our selfish defensive heal, and Fragments being a group defensive heal.

’Light’s Judgement’ will have it’s situational use in PVP for the reveal but stacking Vulnerability is far easier with Spear of Justice + Scepter Smite. Other classes bring better Vulnerability, why would we ever sacrifice a skill slot for this trap?

Traps in there current form are garbage.
There is no +healing +damage that will fix them.
they need a complete total redesign from the ground up.

After giving it some more thought and taking the time to review the other elite specs before posting this, I can honestly say that the excitement I did feel for the changes posted in this thread has completely disappeared.

While the changes being made to the DH are a step forward, I realize that they’re still only barely making this elite spec passable at best. I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to balance the Guardian, but the issues previous posts have brought up around the topic of MF and AH proves we’re not “in a good place.”

In all facets the Dragonhunter remains underwhelming and that only becomes clearer when compared to the other elite specs, especially those with a very clear focus and purpose like the Berserker and Daredevil. (Honestly, I can’t even begin to express my rage over the BS of Flaming Furry being nothing more than a significantly improved version of Zealot’s Defense – that is beyond insulting.)

At first I was excited by the new condi removal on block just because it seemed so much better than what we had before. It still is better, but how can that be justified as effective in comparison to a condi cleanse on evade from a e-spec that’s dripping with endurance and an extra dodge? Yes, we have access to a decent number of blocks, but not matching the frequency with which the Daredevil seems to be able to dodge. Maybe if Guardians had access to an additional 1s block and 2s knockdown every 10 seconds it would be a different story . . . oh, right . . . someone else got that skill.

For that matter, how can Traps even compared to Daredevil’s Distracting Daggers or Berserker’s Shattering Blow? (Bleeding, damage adrenaline generation and reflecting missiles is a lot of effects for a single skill, especially when we couldn’t even get Distracting Strike bumped up to a reflect). Actually, as I think about it . . . Distracting Daggers is almost better than Dragon’s Maw, at this point.

No, I’m not just focusing on Daredevil and Berserker either. Even comparing something like Test of Faith and Mesmer’s Well of Calamity you can see that Dragonhunter is lacking. Oooh, less damage than the well, no weakness but 4 seconds more cripple (those are clearly even in strength), with a base CD of 10 second more and WITHOUT the removal of 2 conditions when traited? With such a low health pool Guardian’s can’t afford skills that rob us of cleanses and sustain, that’s part of the reason why Signets and Spirit Weapons suck. The only way to make these two skills comparable would be for the Guardian to take three different traits compared to the Mesmer only needing 1.

I’m sure I’ll probably get counterarguments about each class needing to be balanced individually, or how they might be better in application, but I direct you to the previous (and more on-topic than they seem) posts about the the balancing issues of the Guardian and the situation with AH and MF.

I could go on and on and point out even more reasons why this elite specialization is underwhelming, but suffice it to say, longer CDs on most Guardian skills than the other elite specs (except Tempest) with lesser effects and damage potential is the reason why Dragonhunter is lagging behind in last place. (I didn’t count the length of the CDs for Chrono and Reaper because of their mechanics that effect reduction of CD). At least Tempest improves Auramancer builds, even if it doesn’t bring a new role to the Ele.

With only 1 beta to go with which we can even hope to try any of the even somewhat effective changes to the Dragonhunter (because they didn’t make it into the beta this weekend), I have currently 0 faith that this elite specialization will be worth it.

TL;DR: From every standpoint the Dragonhunter is in last place. With utilities that can’t hope to compare to the other elite specs and traits that are only very slightly increasing in effectiveness with each update we get, my optimism about this elite is gone. This has gone from my most anticipated element following the announcement of Heart of Thorns, to the only reason I’m disappointed. :/

Arnath.2319:

Traps in there current form are garbage.
There is no +healing +damage that will fix them.
they need a complete total redesign from the ground up.

I disagree with you here, in that I think the traps are actually not very far from being powerful and useful tools — plus, some of them are pretty cool, and the idea of a trapper is a fun one. However, I entirely agree that traps still need some important work:

Purity really only needs either: an immobilize, a condition cleanse, to apply aegis on cast (and/or activation), or to be a stun break. Any one of these things (coupled with the right recharge/healing/etc. numbers) would allow it to offer something unique to the Guardian, when compared to its other heals. (It can already be traited to daze, which is great, but a healing skill as difficult to use effectively as this one is should definitely not require traiting in order to do something uniquely useful). It should probably also grant regeneration, or else have a lower cooldown.

Test of Faith really ought to be a fire field (which pulses burn) and either: Acts like the hammer’s “Ring of Warding,” damaging and crippling anyone who gets bounced off of it, Immobilizes on activation, or at very, minimal least pulls enemies to the center of it at least once on activation. Given the ridiculous things that other classes are capable of, and the general difficulty of using traps well (particularly on a Guardian), I have a difficult time imagining that any of these options would be too powerful — and the “Ring of Warding” idea would be by far the best and most interesting.

Fragments of Faith could be interesting, if only it did enough to justify it’s extra-complicated mechanics in place of the obviously more convenient “Retreat!” — If the fragments also cleansed a condition (and preferably granted swiftness, as well), along with giving Aegis, it would fix that issue. It also wouldn’t hurt for it to be a light field, or if it pulsed multiple hits, instead of being one larger one, to better take advantage of Justice’s passive, or if it did something to actually disable or snare the opponent.

Whirling Wrath mostly just needs to be made a “whirl finisher” and have its numbers tuned and it’ll be fine for what it is: a trap that hits a lot of times and deals a ton of damage in an aoe.

Light’s Judgement mostly needs either: Longer duration on Vulnerability, or Higher stacks of vulnerability, or simply more damage, and it will also be what it’s obviously intended to be: another multi-hit high damage trap that pierces armor, reveals stealthed enemies, and also is by far the most stylish and aesthetically pleasing/exciting thing about the Dragonhunter so far.

Dragon’s Maw looks cool but feels weak. I’m pretty sure the first thing would be to reduce its cooldown to match the other traps, so that at least it justifies itself by its relatively short CD and it’s synergy with the rest of the traps. Along with that (or even, if it’s too powerful, in place of that), an easy solution would be to make it pulse its damage, instead of deal it all at once, and then to have it either: also be a pulsing fire field (which burns, obviously), or Stun, instead of slow, or Pulse 1/4 sec. daze every second, to take advantage of the Slow, or cause knockdown when activated. With that (and some numbers tuning), it should be a pretty useful elite.

Finally, we need Zealot’s Aggression to be moved into the GM Minor Trait slot (and preferably Dulled Senses into the Master Minor slot), and then there are a couple other traits that would really make trapper builds come alive with usefulness and a unique DH flavor:

1. We need a trait that: Inflicts bleeding when you strike a crippled opponent.
2. Another that: Grants swiftness and removes movement-impeding conditions when you place a trap.
3. And finally, a Grandmaster trait which: Causes each trap to spawn a symbol on activation.

This would make Dragonhunters and their traps a powerful force and a unique, interesting, and engaging way to play, and I have a pretty difficult time imagining that any of these improvements could possibly be overpowered (once numbers are all properly balanced), all things considered.

All I want for traps is to give them some flavor. Add some condi, condi removal, sustain, and some mobility. This might not be enough to make a trap only build viable, but traps should be high reward skills as they depend on pre-setup, positioning and controlling enemies. They also have long activation times and long cool downs.

Test of Faith: Passing the blades converts 1 condition to a boon for all allies who pass. If no conditions are present, it heals for small amount. For enemies it corrupts 1 boon to a condition, cripples if no boon present. 1 sec cooldown for both.
- This skills needs some utility, as it is very underwhelming against smart foes. The changes give some sustain for allies and yourself, while actually punishing enemies in a way Guardians have never been able to do before. You will want to dance around blades cc’ing enemies into them for maximum effect.

Procession of Blades: Make bleed per strike base.
-Bleed fits here, otherwise a straightforward trap with cover condi.

Lights Judgement: Add 1 stack torment per strike.
-Punish enemies for leaving. Even more cover condi.

Fragments of Faith: Fragments also grant swiftness.
- A touch of needed mobility. Good for escapes, distancing.

Purification: Activation creates a Symbol of Regeneration (1 sec regen every sec) and the ‘return’ also removes 3 conditions.
- Come on, its call Purification. Purify. And please add some non weapon symbols. It might seem like I am asking a lot for a 30 sec heal, but it is a very conditional heal that could easily fail. Risk reward should be quite large here.

Dragons Maw: Striking an enemy while trapped burns them. 1 stack, 1 sec. No cooldown. -OR- Striking an enemy while trapped steals health (think sigil of blood) 1 sec cooldown.
-I like both, but both would be a bit much. can’t pick a favorite. Both apply to the caster only! Or it could get crazy.
-

RebornbyFire.7913:

1. And finally, a Grandmaster trait which: Causes each trap to spawn a symbol on activation.

While I don’t agree that traps are almost powerful, I think your ideas are heading in the right direction for the most part. I cannot, however, agree that Traps should spawn symbols, be counted as symbols, or anything of that sort as it would give far too much of a reason to focus entirely on Symbol based builds (especially in comparison to the other DH traits).

Previously in this forum and in another I suggested instead that we should see a trait that concerns Wards. For example, making activated Traps count as Wards and Wards provide a slight amount of healing, or Retaliation or some other sustain or supportive effect. I’m not suggesting every trap forms a barrier, however.

Rather than just piling more onto the heap of symbol traits, this would instead create synergy with Symbols in an indirect method by affecting Longbow, Staff and Hammer, as each of these weapons has both a Ward and a Symbol.

Dragon’s Maw already functions similarly to a Ward with its barrier so it wouldn’t be a great leap to see this sort of functionality. If anything, this would reinforce the idea of the Dragonhunter being able to manipulate the field of battle and give us more incentive to lure enemies into our traps.

xinkspillx.3914:

RebornbyFire.7913:

1. And finally, a Grandmaster trait which: Causes each trap to spawn a symbol on activation.

While I don’t agree that traps are almost powerful, I think your ideas are heading in the right direction for the most part. I cannot, however, agree that Traps should spawn symbols, be counted as symbols, or anything of that sort as it would give far too much of a reason to focus entirely on Symbol based builds (especially in comparison to the other DH traits).

Previously in this forum and in another I suggested instead that we should see a trait that concerns Wards. For example, making activated Traps count as Wards and Wards provide a slight amount of healing, or Retaliation or some other sustain or supportive effect. I’m not suggesting every trap forms a barrier, however.

Rather than just piling more onto the heap of symbol traits, this would instead create synergy with Symbols in an indirect method by affecting Longbow, Staff and Hammer, as each of these weapons has both a Ward and a Symbol.

Dragon’s Maw already functions similarly to a Ward with its barrier so it wouldn’t be a great leap to see this sort of functionality. If anything, this would reinforce the idea of the Dragonhunter being able to manipulate the field of battle and give us more incentive to lure enemies into our traps.

I see where you’re coming from on the “symbol-only builds” thing, but I still think that: 1) Symbols are a cool Guardian-specific mechanic that is underutilized in the class as a whole, and 2) It would be a totally awesome GM trait which would create fun, synergy, utility, and so on. Further, although it would theoretically be possible to fully trait symbols and have an amazing amount of stuff happening with your traps (which I still think would be great and, given the cast/recharge time, innate complications of using, and stationary nature of the traps and symbols, not likely to be actually overpowered when compared across classes), that would mean giving up on a lot of other things that would normally help you stay alive and do other things, so it would come at a cost — part of which would be mobility in combat.

However, your idea concerning wards fits in much the same way, and if it’s a cool trait that gives added synergy, functionality, power, and unique interest to the traps, I’m all for it. The issue here is, while symbols apply a variety of boons, are light fields, deal pulsing damage, and can be traited for various other defensive or offensive benefits, wards so far only do one thing: place walls that prevent enemies from moving past them. Since it seems pretty unlikely that we will be allowed to trait all our traps to have KB-inducing walls around then (although I still think Test of Faith should have that for base functionality), as you’ve also mentioned, in what manner do you recommend we introduce the idea or mechanic of “warding” to the traps? It sounds like it could be a cool idea (and serve to bring out an under-used skill type) — I’d love to read some more about it.

Hunter’s Fortification is a step in the right direction, a little funny after the Daredevil release and the way Thief is going to be untouchable by Power damage through constant evades and untouchable by conditions by cleansing one with every evade, but ah well. We’re in a good place right.

The 10% damage reduction when not affected by a condition is out of place, and in a game with thirteen conditions, most of which are applied by weapon skills this is just not gonna happen in combat, PvE or PvP.

It should either change to 10% reduced incoming condition damage on the Guardian.
Or 10% reduced incoming condition duration on the Guardian.

And I would hope to see Shield of Courage block incoming melee attacks for the Guardian and actually block them to proc our mechanics. Not as Karl said because the skill has a cast time but rather because it’s very short duration and a 75 second cooldown skill!

The problem I have with Traps is bar Heavy Light (DH Grandmaster) there is no way to forcible relocate a foe into your traps within the Dragonhunter specialization. As alot of a DH Trap build’s survivability is tied into triggering traps I feel at least one way of reliable forced relocation into your traps is needed.

Some idea’s from other discussions:

Bezagron.7352:

Some ideas & thoughts of relocation:

• Test of Faith – A greater knockback that gives the ability to knock your foe through the whole trap, causing 2 triggers for damage.
• Trap Command: When activated trap pulls foe from the outer ring into the center of the trap (AoE dual ring with an inner ring (damge, trap effect) & a outer ring (pull zone)).
• When triggered trap pulls foe into the center of the trap.
• A bonus effect to Control Skills / Effects that directs the relocation towards the closest trap / into the trap if within range.

Asmodal.6489:

Another cool OP idea:
WoR Trait change: Leap to taget area. relocate all foes in the area into the center of the nearest trap – #rekt

:-)

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

RebornbyFire.7913:

However, your idea concerning wards fits in much the same way, and if it’s a cool trait that gives added synergy, functionality, power, and unique interest to the traps, I’m all for it. The issue here is, while symbols apply a variety of boons, are light fields, deal pulsing damage, and can be traited for various other defensive or offensive benefits, wards so far only do one thing: place walls that prevent enemies from moving past them. Since it seems pretty unlikely that we will be allowed to trait all our traps to have KB-inducing walls around then (although I still think Test of Faith should have that for base functionality), as you’ve also mentioned, in what manner do you recommend we introduce the idea or mechanic of “warding” to the traps? It sounds like it could be a cool idea (and serve to bring out an under-used skill type) — I’d love to read some more about it.

I’m actually a big fan of Symbols and run Hammer rather frequently. It’s because I like Symbols so much and view Wards as another side of the same coin that I suggested a trait for them instead.

Typically, Symbols, despite a few boons, are skills that punish enemies who enter their areas through pulsing damage, vuln, burning, increased damagr from the Guardian, etc.

I think I would like to see Guardian’s have more support for Wards as something that keeps the intention of binding an enemy in a specific area or blocking their advance, but gives the Guardian a reason to remain behind and keep fighting.

If Wards granted some sustain to Guardians and didn’t just act as CC barriers, it would absolutely reinforce the Guardian as “first in, last out.”

That’s why something like Condi Cleanse, Regeneration, Retaliation, Protection, or some other effect along those lines would improve Wards greatly.

They could be used in tandem with Symbols, allowing the Guardian to create a temporary Killing field, but one which would be very infrequent given the CD of the barrier Ward skills.

To keep this from being overpowered, I would therefore suggest that Traps don’t create barriers on activation, but count as Wards for the sake of granting the Guardian the passive sustain bonuses. Dragon’s Maw already forms a barrier and would then function like the Wards on Longbow, Hammer and Shield.

This could really help define the Guardian again and introduce some much needed potential variety while giving you a reason to let enemies close in. Like I said, “first in, last out” just like the devs always told us Guardian was meant to be.

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with. They just seem so strong because we have nothing else that can compare. Every successful PvP Guardian build ever has had to rely on extra sustain outside of our heal skills because our healing skills are garbage (block from Shelter notwithstanding). Since launch we’ve been crippled by high cooldowns and low healing coefficients simply for the sake of allowing our heals to affect allies, who typically don’t even really need them because of their own healing skills being much more accessible. Anet has tried so hard to make Guardian the healer class in a game that doesn’t support the dedicated healer role (and really doesn’t even need one currently), and the result is a kitten set of skills that heal for under 2k a piece and are locked behind high cooldowns because “otherwise they’d be overpowered because you could just heal your allies the whole time”.

The class is just so fundamentally flawed that it’s a wonder that it’s been able to stick around in the meta for so long despite its shortcomings. Anet has been so afraid of Guardian players becoming OP juggernauts just from getting some fine tuning that we’ve been the guys who are “in a good place” who get hyped up for every balance update just to see that we’ve gotten some “updated skill facts”, and after 3 years we’re falling behind because we aren’t getting nearly as much TLC as any other class has up to this point.

This is why I don’t want AH and MF nerfed. Because if that happens, we’ll have nothing left to make us competitive at all, and we’ll just fall out of the PvP meta entirely. And the Dragonhunter with its bogus traps certainly won’t do a kitten thing to prevent that.

@Brutaly

Essentially when you have nothing better to compare it to from the profession therein, it may seem OP because that’s all you have.

Meditations are in a slightly weird spot because they’re supposed to be completely selfish yet they provide AoE Fury. I’ve never been able to make a somewhat viable build in pvp without this. My one healing skill isn’t even close to enough to sustaining me. Hell, Meditations barely bump it up from there.

AH is also a bit weird as it’s the only GM in the game that has a HEAVY stipulation as to when it’s strong or not. If you’re by yourself, it’s a joke of a trait that’s not even worth looking at. In a group(at least 3), that’s a different story. Even then, this trait is HEAVILY revolved around running staff due to empower. I cannot find a single other trait in the game that requires so much for sustain.

Edit: I’d love it if the aoe fury was removed and it was like cantrips where you gain 2 short duration boons for yourself.

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

Arken.3725:

@Brutaly

Essentially when you have nothing better to compare it to from the profession therein, it may seem OP because that’s all you have.

Read above, i dont think they are overpowered but i do think its essential to nerf them while buffing innate capabilities in order to improve build diversity.

Imo guardians has never been in a worse spot when it comes to build diversity. In pvp and wvw there is simply close to zero choices when it comes builds: One burn build, one burst build and one zerg build. All of them uses valor and virtues.

I’d absolutely consider giving up Monk’s Focus if that was the case but the big problem is that the only reason why that works for Warrior is because of their large health pool and long-duration invuls. Guardian’s lack both of these to sustain in the same way.

Arken.3725:

I’d absolutely consider giving up Monk’s Focus if that was the case .

You proved my point.

but the big problem is that the only reason why that works for Warrior is because of their large health pool and long-duration invuls. Guardian’s lack both of these to sustain in the same way.

Virtue of resolve was just an example to prove a point. Maybe the solution is a larger healthpool and stronger passive/active on VoR.
Regarding invuls i disagree, i play war/guard mainly and i find our blocks and blinds to be even more powerful, in pvp especially.

My DH build would be honor, virtues and DH. Increased symbol size for the win.

But maybe you need them, combine the stronger VoR with the weaker MF than. I know i wouldnt. I would have at least one signet in my burst build for sure.

The thing is that such a solution is way easier to advocate and implement than adding 2k heals on each and every utility and ofc as a grand master trait. Which is pretty much what people are saying, me included.

No matter how selfish you try to go, we still offer aoe fury, aoe condi cleanses, aoe quickness, aoe stability/stunbreak and even aoe heals. The reason why guards don’t have the regens as War, Ele or even Engi is because of how unselfish the class is. If we weren’t giving out so much, we would receive more as a class.

Yes, we’re unselfish by nature but our ‘support’ is too spread out amongst skills/traits instead of specialized. The heals on Battle Presence should be merged with Signet of Courage because lets face it, anyone who wants to do aoe heals will choose SoC.

Give us a 15% increased speed trait along with a “Virtues now offer 10s of Swiftness”.

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

If you nerf AH/MF, you remove our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits. If you buff other traits/skills, you have still removed our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits.

If you’re insisting that you’re not labeling them as OP, then what purpose would nerfing them serve? The best-case scenario would be that they’d just go out of fashion entirely, and then you will have accomplished nothing other than rotating the meta to the next 1-2 builds.

Just don’t cry for nerfs on something when it’s not overpowered. I really don’t see where there is difficulty in understanding this.

@Brutaly

I think your suggestion to increase the active and passive heals of VoR is right on the money.

@everyone :P

If we could move some of the sustain that chains us to Meditations and Monk’s Focus to our profession mechanic, it would have a wide-reaching impact. Dropping the amount on the heal MF provides wouldn’t be nerfing Guardian if Virtue of Resolve was enhanced to compensate. Yes, it would still technically be a nerf to Meditations, but ultimately they would remain just as effective as they were because the removed sustain would be coming from the always present profession mechanic.

Were Absolute Resolution to become baseline for VoR (perhaps only removing 1 condi for balance sake) along with increasing the active heal to 4k that would be great. It’s obvious Guardians need this sustain to make up for a low health pool and low mobility, so why shouldn’t it accessible for the sake of build variety?

This would even make Signets more usable. O_O

The devs could leave Absolute Resolution where it is, but cause it to convert the VoR’s new baseline 1 condi cleanse to 3 condis and give an additional small effect like a tiny bit of Resistance or Vigor (not sure exactly, but might need something).

While they’re at it, the devs should seriously swap Glacial Heart’s place with Pure of Heart’s place. This would make sooooooooo much difference for both of those traits.

Having Glacial Heart in the same trait line with Writ Persistance would be far more synergistic. The only problem would be having Staff and Hammer competing, but I don’t know many builds that run both of those traits at once.

Pure of Heart being in Virtues would synergize with Unscathed Contender and Indomitable Courage and, most important of all, it would make the Aegis traits less spread out and ultimately far more effective.

xinkspillx.3914:

@everyone :P

If we could move some of the sustain that chains us to Meditations and Monk’s Focus to our profession mechanic, it would have a wide-reaching impact. Dropping the amount on the heal MF provides wouldn’t be nerfing Guardian if Virtue of Resolve was enhanced to compensate. Yes, it would still technically be a nerf to Meditations, but ultimately they would remain just as effective as they were because the removed sustain would be coming from the always present profession mechanic.

That wont happen because of Battle Presence. It would give everyone else more healing. Another reason why the healing on Battle Presence needs to be merged in with SoC. SoC could really use it imo.

Replace the BP master trait in virtues with a 15% run/walk with Swiftness on Virtue activation and you added the speed increase that numerous guards have asked for.

Saiyan.1704:

xinkspillx.3914:

@everyone :P

If we could move some of the sustain that chains us to Meditations and Monk’s Focus to our profession mechanic, it would have a wide-reaching impact. Dropping the amount on the heal MF provides wouldn’t be nerfing Guardian if Virtue of Resolve was enhanced to compensate. Yes, it would still technically be a nerf to Meditations, but ultimately they would remain just as effective as they were because the removed sustain would be coming from the always present profession mechanic.

That wont happen because of Battle Presence. It would give everyone else more healing. Another reason why the healing on Battle Presence needs to be merged in with SoC. SoC could really use it imo.

When using both Battle Presence and Absolute Resolution together allies already receive increased healing so no, it wouldn’t increase the amount of healing to outside sources passively. Yes, the active heal would be an increase, but with the CD taken into consideration (along with the loss of the passive heal during said CD), it would hardly be overpowered.

@Brutaly and xinkspillx: Actually, I rescind my initial knee-jerk reaction of disagreement; you guys are entirely right. Moving a significant portion of the healing from Monk’s Focus into the baseline Virtue of Resolve (and/or shortening our heal cooldowns, raising their self-heal factor, etc.) would leave Meditation builds still entirely viable and powerful, while opening up a much greater number of alternatives and making the Guardian’s virtues supply more of the sustain and self-help that they were originally intended to. +In fact, I really feel like Resolve and Courage need somewhat of a baseline cooldown reduction, anyway, because their recharges (especially Courage) are ridiculously long — which is another part of what makes running Meditations and Renewed Focus for an elite so necessary: Without that ability to recharge the virtues, their activated abilities are far too weak and their cooldowns far too long for them to function as intended. Even Justice’s active, which can be traited for further effects, is almost never worth it, at least since the update which allows burns to stack.

Further, as an issue relevant to the Dragonhunter, I feel like one of the things which would really give the class some power and interest, as well as bring out the usefulness of its unique take on virtues, would be to allow each specific Virtue-related trait (Soaring Devastation for WoR, and Bulwark for SoC) to offer a 20% cooldown reduction for that particular virtue, and then to have Big Game Hunter allow the player to retain Justice’s passive after activating it. This would make perfect sense for a class which is supposed to both encourage the use of the new virtues and get most of its survival, utility, and sustain, etc. from their actives — But as long as Monk’s Focus retains its current power, it seems unlikely that this will happen, because the concern will always be: “But what if they run full Virtue DH along with Meditations and Monk’s Focus?” — even though that line of reasoning results in leaving any non-meditation/MF Dragonhunters severely under-powered.

Tl/dr: Buff Virtue of Resolve’s baseline passive and active effects. Lower the base cooldown of Resolve (at least slightly) and Courage (seriously? Almost a minute and a half for a single Aegis? This makes SoC on the DH laughable as a reliable mechanic, especially when compared to other classes’ abilities). Nerf the heal on Monk’s Focus accordingly. If lower-CD/higher-powered virtues’ active effects for allies are too powerful, then simply require a trait to make them affect allies.

RebornbyFire.7913:

@Brutaly and xinkspillx: Actually, I rescind my initial knee-jerk reaction of disagreement; you guys are entirely right. Moving a significant portion of the healing from Monk’s Focus into the baseline Virtue of Resolve (and/or shortening our heal cooldowns, raising their self-heal factor, etc.) would leave Meditation builds still entirely viable and powerful, while opening up a much greater number of alternatives and making the Guardian’s virtues supply more of the sustain and self-help that they were originally intended to. +In fact, I really feel like Resolve and Courage need somewhat of a baseline cooldown reduction, anyway, because their recharges (especially Courage) are ridiculously long — which is another part of what makes running Meditations and Renewed Focus for an elite so necessary: Without that ability to recharge the virtues, their activated abilities are far too weak and their cooldowns far too long for them to function as intended. Even Justice’s active, which can be traited for further effects, is almost never worth it, at least since the update which allows burns to stack.

Thank you for taking the time to post this. I really think Brutaly made an excellent suggestion and the more of us that get behind this idea, the better.

Further, as an issue relevant to the Dragonhunter, I feel like one of the things which would really give the class some power and interest, as well as bring out the usefulness of its unique take on virtues, would be to allow each specific Virtue-related trait (Soaring Devastation for WoR, and Bulwark for SoC) to offer a 20% cooldown reduction for that particular virtue, and then to have Big Game Hunter allow the player to retain Justice’s passive after activating it. This would make perfect sense for a class which is supposed to both encourage the use of the new virtues and get most of its survival, utility, and sustain, etc. from their actives — But as long as Monk’s Focus retains its current power, it seems unlikely that this will happen, because the concern will always be: “But what if they run full Virtue DH along with Meditations and Monk’s Focus?” — even though that line of reasoning results in leaving any non-meditation/MF Dragonhunters severely under-powered.

Tl/dr: Buff Virtue of Resolve’s baseline passive and active effects. Lower the base cooldown of Resolve (at least slightly) and Courage (seriously? Almost a minute and a half for a single Aegis? This makes SoC on the DH laughable as a reliable mechanic, especially when compared to other classes’ abilities). Nerf the heal on Monk’s Focus accordingly. If lower-CD/higher-powered virtues’ active effects for allies are too powerful, then simply require a trait to make them affect allies.

These are pretty good suggestions as well. I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels the CDs on (at least two) of our virtues is a little too high for the quality of the active effects versus being so long without the passives. While I recognize it’s meant to be a trade-off, it feels somewhat skewed at the moment.

The idea of allowing us to pick and choose 20% CD reductions to our virtues is definitely a curious one. My gut reaction is one in favor of something like this, but it would definitely need to be tested. I’m excited by the idea though.

I don’t see a 48 second CD when running Virtues spec with Dragonhunter being overpowered for SoC, but if the changes to passive WoR were implemented than a 32 second CD might be a little imbalanced. Likewise, a 16 second CD for SoJ could also be a little overly strong. I think with WoR and SoJ it could go either way. Then again, in comparison to the potential CD reduction of Reaper’s Augury of Death trait, it wouldn’t be that abnormal. I can’t help but keep remembering something I’ve seen a few times in the Guardian forums though: “if it’s overpowered for the Guardian, it’s balanced for everyone else” haha.

I don’t think SoJ need to retain its passive on use, however, as it already applies burning periodically and with a potential CD reduction to 16 seconds that really would make it too powerful.

As far as I’m aware, I didn’t notice SoJ being effected by Supreme Justice, but if we could see both that trait and Permeating Wrath effect the burns on SoJ activation I should think the skill would be more useful. It would at least begin to make up for the damage nerf our Symbol of Energy received with the removal of burning (I don’t believe a 10% base damage increase was a satisfactory replacement for the burns). Trait support like that may be too powerful though, especially with a reduced CD.

Regardless, it’s clear we need something to give our Virtues the oomph they need to balance us a bit better.

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

If you nerf AH/MF, you remove our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits. If you buff other traits/skills, you have still removed our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits.

If you’re insisting that you’re not labeling them as OP, then what purpose would nerfing them serve? The best-case scenario would be that they’d just go out of fashion entirely, and then you will have accomplished nothing other than rotating the meta to the next 1-2 builds.

Just don’t cry for nerfs on something when it’s not overpowered. I really don’t see where there is difficulty in understanding this.

If for instance VoR was buffed and MF nerfed the absolute effectiveness of a medi guard compared to other professions would be kept intact.

BUT the relative effectiveness of the medi guard compared to our other utilities would be reduced.

I asked you a straightforward question, why not answer it as Arken did. If you do i believe that you get the point im trying to make.

RebornbyFire.7913:

@Brutaly and xinkspillx: Actually, I rescind my initial knee-jerk reaction of disagreement; you guys are entirely right. Moving a significant portion of the healing from Monk’s Focus into the baseline Virtue of Resolve (and/or shortening our heal cooldowns, raising their self-heal factor, etc.) would leave Meditation builds still entirely viable and powerful, while opening up a much greater number of alternatives and making the Guardian’s virtues supply more of the sustain and self-help that they were originally intended to. +In fact, I really feel like Resolve and Courage need somewhat of a baseline cooldown reduction, anyway, because their recharges (especially Courage) are ridiculously long — which is another part of what makes running Meditations and Renewed Focus for an elite so necessary: Without that ability to recharge the virtues, their activated abilities are far too weak and their cooldowns far too long for them to function as intended. Even Justice’s active, which can be traited for further effects, is almost never worth it, at least since the update which allows burns to stack.

Further, as an issue relevant to the Dragonhunter, I feel like one of the things which would really give the class some power and interest, as well as bring out the usefulness of its unique take on virtues, would be to allow each specific Virtue-related trait (Soaring Devastation for WoR, and Bulwark for SoC) to offer a 20% cooldown reduction for that particular virtue, and then to have Big Game Hunter allow the player to retain Justice’s passive after activating it. This would make perfect sense for a class which is supposed to both encourage the use of the new virtues and get most of its survival, utility, and sustain, etc. from their actives — But as long as Monk’s Focus retains its current power, it seems unlikely that this will happen, because the concern will always be: “But what if they run full Virtue DH along with Meditations and Monk’s Focus?” — even though that line of reasoning results in leaving any non-meditation/MF Dragonhunters severely under-powered.

Tl/dr: Buff Virtue of Resolve’s baseline passive and active effects. Lower the base cooldown of Resolve (at least slightly) and Courage (seriously? Almost a minute and a half for a single Aegis? This makes SoC on the DH laughable as a reliable mechanic, especially when compared to other classes’ abilities). Nerf the heal on Monk’s Focus accordingly. If lower-CD/higher-powered virtues’ active effects for allies are too powerful, then simply require a trait to make them affect allies.

Completely agree with this.

Short of that however they could somewhat copy the effects of monks focus into other traits in other trait lines.

Either way the guardian wouldn’t feel like it was forced into valor & monks focus.

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

If you nerf AH/MF, you remove our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits. If you buff other traits/skills, you have still removed our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits.

If you’re insisting that you’re not labeling them as OP, then what purpose would nerfing them serve? The best-case scenario would be that they’d just go out of fashion entirely, and then you will have accomplished nothing other than rotating the meta to the next 1-2 builds.

Just don’t cry for nerfs on something when it’s not overpowered. I really don’t see where there is difficulty in understanding this.

If for instance VoR was buffed and MF nerfed the absolute effectiveness of a medi guard compared to other professions would be kept intact.

BUT the relative effectiveness of the medi guard compared to our other utilities would be reduced.

I asked you a straightforward question, why not answer it as Arken did. If you do i believe that you get the point im trying to make.

This scenario reminds me of a AH Rabid build utilizing Zealous Scepter and Zealous Blade for heals.

You’ll gain more sustains throughout the fight but the moment you get bursted down, you wont have that medi burst heals to save you. It’s like this AH Rabid build, it wouldn’t work as well as you think it would.

Further more, once you use AR for condi clears, (usually early in the fight if you or your team gets condi bombed) you’ll no longet gain the passive heals. Kind of sounds counter productive to me.

Saiyan.1704:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

If you nerf AH/MF, you remove our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits. If you buff other traits/skills, you have still removed our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits.

If you’re insisting that you’re not labeling them as OP, then what purpose would nerfing them serve? The best-case scenario would be that they’d just go out of fashion entirely, and then you will have accomplished nothing other than rotating the meta to the next 1-2 builds.

Just don’t cry for nerfs on something when it’s not overpowered. I really don’t see where there is difficulty in understanding this.

If for instance VoR was buffed and MF nerfed the absolute effectiveness of a medi guard compared to other professions would be kept intact.

BUT the relative effectiveness of the medi guard compared to our other utilities would be reduced.

I asked you a straightforward question, why not answer it as Arken did. If you do i believe that you get the point im trying to make.

This scenario reminds me of a AH Rabid build utilizing Zealous Scepter and Zealous Blade for heals.

You’ll gain more sustains throughout the fight but the moment you get bursted down, you wont have that medi burst heals to save you. It’s like this AH Rabid build, it wouldn’t work as well as you think it would.

Further more, once you use AR for condi clears, (usually early in the fight if you or your team gets condi bombed) you’ll no longet gain the passive heals. Kind of sounds counter productive to me.

The numbers are examples to illustrate something. Im sure if anet just gets a push in this direction they could figure it out.

But for the sake of the argument 1k heals on medis would make the guardian loose out on 5k . Imo 200 extra hps and 2+2k extra through VoR is pretty much imo. And it would open up bunker/condi guards.

For each 5s of fight the passive would fully compensate for the reduced heal on medis given the fight last 15 sec and you need all utility 3 medis. If you are used to cleanse with AR twice during that time you loose out on the passive but get two actives which heals you and the team for 8k, 4k being the addon on in my suggestion. I thin this would play out as an absolute buff to medi guardians but a relative nerf to medis.

Btw i use CoP and smite conditions on my burst guard prior to AR. AR being on long cd and i only get to use it twice (refresh thru elite) no matter how long the fight is. SC and sometimes CoP can be used twice. If played like that you would get much more out of the passive and also increased burst heal with back to back VoR.

The above would be further enhanced by traiting absolute resolution.

Imo this could actually inrease the burst healing in medis even though it requires a different rotation.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Short of that however they could somewhat copy the effects of monks focus into other traits in other trait lines.

The problem is that it requires both an adjustment in the traits and that it has to be tied to the utilities. If not the relative power of the medis would remain intact and nothing would actually change.

Thanks Brutaly & all, I can now see more clearly that their is a base survivability issue with the core guardian which effects the viability of differing builds. Which when first introduced virtues were suppose to be a large part of the guardian’s survivability. Although their can be great traited the base virtues & their cooldowns leave alot to be desired. Guardians are described as:

• Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues.
• & True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.
  Note: Arenanet’s Guardian Profession page

At the moment I really don’t feel the power of virtues unless I trait into them. Also on a whole other then virtues I’m not feeling the “sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies”.

Virtues were suppose to be our core, our defence & our strength. I feel like we should be using them alot more frequently then we currently do & have a notable loss when activating (Our sacrifice).

Like others above I’m starting to believe what should happen is to shift some of the trait virtue’s power back into the base virtues. This shouldn’t greatly change the top builds performance just shift some of that power back into the base guardian which should open up more options.

Base Virtue Ideas:
Virtue of Justice (CD: 25 sec)

• Passive: Burns foes every few attacks (fifth attack)
• Active: You & your allies inflict burning & blind on the next attack.

Add “Justice is Blind” to the base virtue. This then provides a base supportive element to Justice which is missing currently. As we’re baselining Justice is Blind some new minor trait options could be:

• Wrathful Justice: Justice passive now applies 2 stacks of burning. This would enhance condition guardians (One thought regarding condition duration is to removal of + condition duration from all other sources other them traits. This would allow I believe for easier balancing of conditions through out all modes overall).
• The Long Arm of Justice: Extends Justice’s passive burning duration by 50% & also increases the effective radius of the active effect by 50% (use of percentage for easy sync with DH & future VoJ designs).

Virtue of Resolve (CD: 35 sec)

• Passive: Regenerate health (greatly increased).
• Active: Heal (improved but a loss in healing over time if activated) & remove 1 condition from yourself & nearby allies.

Shift some of the healing potential into the base VoR from our Healing skills & Monk’s Focus also include a single condition cleanse into the base VOR (Points for Brutaly & xinkspillx). This improves guardians base recovery rate & provides some much needed base condition protection (which is needed greatly for small health pools).

As I’m looking for that “sacrifice their own defences” feel throughout all the virtues what I would look at is making the passive heal for about 30-50% more health then the active heal when considering the same time frame. Adjustments due to baseline of some effects:

• Monk’s Focus & Healing Skills (skill bar #6): Adjusted due to shifting of healing power into VoR.
• Absolute Resolution: Effective radius of the active effect increased by 50% & now only increases condition removed by 2. Still increases VoR passive healing.

Virtue of Courage (CD: 45 sec)

• Passive: Grants aegis every few seconds (40 sec).Granted boons when struck below the health threshold (5 sec Aegis at 50%, 5 sec Aegis + 3 sec Protection 25%. ICD 25 sec each).
• Active: Transfers all your current boons to allies (Sacrifice defence) & grants aegis to yourself & nearby allies

Add a slightly improved current “Valorous Defence” to the base VoC. This provides the Courage to Fight On when your back is against the wall. It is with the boon transfer that I really get the feeling of “sacrifice their own defences to empower their allies”. Again adjustments for baselining:

• Valorous Defence (new): Aegis grants a second aegis when it ends (Blocks 2 attacks, also second aegis can’t reapply another aegis).
• Courageous Return (new): Shift from Indomitable Courage VoC passive effect triggers more frequently (30 sec). I’ve never found the current version to be of any use & it also provides No Benefit at all if you take Protective Reviver which you would if your looking to revive people).

Lastly an alternate virtue cooldown option that could encourage virtue activations would be:

• Power of the Virtuous (new): Deals extra damage for each boon you have. Activating a virtue reduces the other virtues cooldowns (5 sec).

Having this base increase of survivability would also indirectly help the Dragonhunter.

Bezagron.7352:

Having this base increase of survivability would also indirectly help the Dragonhunter.

great post and i couldnt agree more.

The part i quoted is the reason why i think this matter is on topic.

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

If you nerf AH/MF, you remove our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits. If you buff other traits/skills, you have still removed our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits.

If you’re insisting that you’re not labeling them as OP, then what purpose would nerfing them serve? The best-case scenario would be that they’d just go out of fashion entirely, and then you will have accomplished nothing other than rotating the meta to the next 1-2 builds.

Just don’t cry for nerfs on something when it’s not overpowered. I really don’t see where there is difficulty in understanding this.

If for instance VoR was buffed and MF nerfed the absolute effectiveness of a medi guard compared to other professions would be kept intact.

BUT the relative effectiveness of the medi guard compared to our other utilities would be reduced.

I asked you a straightforward question, why not answer it as Arken did. If you do i believe that you get the point im trying to make.

I did answer your question. It would incentivize the use of other builds, but it would come at the cost of rendering current builds ineffective. You’d be doing nothing but taking all of our eggs out of one basket and placing them in another. Both AH and MF do a very good job of supporting their respective builds. The goal should be to bring other builds up to par with that, so that AH and MF are still good options, but just not the only options.

@Black Box
Sorry i cant see any answer so i assume its been moderated or you just removed it your self, either way you answered it now.

And they would do an equally good job with a change to our core abilities and other stuff would improve as well.

Sorry, its not realistic to think that they should add 2k heals to all our utilities, and add the appropriate traits, since this is the main reason people take MF, the rest is pure icing on the cake.

What i suggest would bring stuff closer to par with a minimum of changes. And if done properly AH/MF builds would be just as strong.

Promoting status quo in MF/Ah will never ever (at least not within the next three years based on anet track record) bring signets, traps, consecrations, shouts and spirit weapons on par.

People that keep on promoting the approach you are just slow down the process. But i think you are aware of that as well but if you think its the proper way ithen so be it.

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

In order to make the class competitive without Valor, they’d have to go beyond undoing every healing/sustain nerf we’ve ever received,

All they have to do (an example) is to make passive resolve the same as warrior passive healing from their signet and buff the active to heal for 4k.

If they do that i wont ever again trait into valor for medis, even though i will use medi utilities in my builds when i go for burst builds.

There is nothing wrong with medis as utilities and they are pretty much in balance with both consecrations and shouts. Signets and SW are behind as we all know. Its having more or less 10k instant heals that makes them unbalanced with other lines and utilities.

Make them heal for 1k innate and let monks focus give you swiftness (instead of heals) for 15s when using a medi. That would help both roamers and burst builds greatly.

And this is on topic. I think asking for changes that makes DH in balance with valor or virtues is unrealistic due to the strength they have. Seriously i would need some sort of tactical nuke in DH-traits to ever use it in pvp or wvw, substituted for valor or virtues.

Its much more realistic to ask for one nerf (AH/MF) and one serious buff to innate capabilities. As you your self say Anet isnt known for buffing guardians so why ask for buffs to almost all utilities and all traitlines.

What do you think we have the best chance of achieving?

Adress the issue which is overall survivability due to long cd on heals and low health pool.

I don’t think you’re getting the point here. AH and MF are by no means overpowered to begin with.

No i think you are not getting the point.

Im not saying they are overpowered or even powerful.

I say as long as they are as relatively strong compared to the other utilities and traitlines they prevent build diversity.

If you reply to my posts please at least read them.

Straightforward question:
If virtue of resolve gave you 365 hps passive and 4k heals active and medis gave you 1k heals per use would you be more or less inclined to use other utilities and traitlines? Ofc you would be more inclined and that is actually my point. Not that medi or AH is overpowered.

If you nerf AH/MF, you remove our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits. If you buff other traits/skills, you have still removed our ability to be competitive running builds that use those traits.

If you’re insisting that you’re not labeling them as OP, then what purpose would nerfing them serve? The best-case scenario would be that they’d just go out of fashion entirely, and then you will have accomplished nothing other than rotating the meta to the next 1-2 builds.

Just don’t cry for nerfs on something when it’s not overpowered. I really don’t see where there is difficulty in understanding this.

If for instance VoR was buffed and MF nerfed the absolute effectiveness of a medi guard compared to other professions would be kept intact.

BUT the relative effectiveness of the medi guard compared to our other utilities would be reduced.

I asked you a straightforward question, why not answer it as Arken did. If you do i believe that you get the point im trying to make.

I did answer your question. It would incentivize the use of other builds, but it would come at the cost of rendering current builds ineffective. You’d be doing nothing but taking all of our eggs out of one basket and placing them in another. Both AH and MF do a very good job of supporting their respective builds. The goal should be to bring other builds up to par with that, so that AH and MF are still good options, but just not the only options.

I have to back Brutaly here. Please don’t take this as offensive or insulting as it’s in no way meant to be either, but I think you’re just having some trouble wrapping your head around the overarching impact of Brutaly’s suggested changes.

Yes, MF would see a reduction in healing per skill, but 1k is a suggested example and the actual strength of the heal could easily be adjusted to avoid seriously sapping Meditations viability.

Giving the Guardian greater sustain through Virtues would be nothing but positive for the overall health of the profession. Heck, even Meditations could see a potential buff in healing because of synergy with the increased power of VoR.

As they are now with MF, 3 Utility Meditiations, 1 Elite Meditation and 2 active uses of VoR would equal 11,200 healing, or 13,200 with Merciful Intervention.

With the suggested changes to MF providing 1k healing and the active of VoR providing something more like a 4k heal to make it’s current CD more worthwhile:

3 Utility Meditations, 1 Elite Meditation and 2 active uses of VoR would equal 12,000 healing, or 14,000 with Merciful Intervention.

This is with rounding down or up to the nearest hundred before multiplication just to simplify things.

So, yes, the healing per skill would be reduced, but the VoR passive effect would pick up quite a bit of that slack (and do so without using CDs) and whatever it didn’t could be accounted for through use of its buffed active. This would instead give Meditations greater passive sustain, while keeping the bursty potential of its heals intact.

Edit: I realize how potentially overpowered an AoE 4k heal could be with Virtue of Resolve, but I should think amending the skill to produce a somewhat lesser heal for allies wouldn’t be that difficult. Adjustments can always be made.

I’m not “having trouble wrapping my head around it”. I just flat out don’t agree that it will do what you think it will do. At best, you’ll have a class that has a built in Healing Signet that will become the scourge of the PvP community and will inevitably get nerfed back into place at the cost of already effective traits that will reduce the incentive to play their respective builds. At worst, you’ll have rendered our best traits ineffective with no apparent gain.