Guild Wars 2

Evidently, Guardian and Warrior aren’t the best fits for either of you. So instead, go find something you do like and keep the pretty arguments out of the forums.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Evidently, Guardian and Warrior aren’t the best fits for either of you. So instead, go find something you do like and keep the pretty arguments out of the forums.

What’s wrong with pretty things? You to need to embrace the pretty wonders of the world.

Black Box.9312:

Azure.8670:

warriors are forced to take stances and fast hands, and fast hands is basically mandatory for berserker due to the pathetic CD and uptime. Rage skills arent even an option, even though they suck anyway, and we lose not 1 but 2 traitlines to use berserker. please.

Guardians are forced to take Valor for extra sustain along with either shouts for defensive builds or meditations for offensive builds. Better take Virtues too if you want your entire class mechanic to be anything more than borderline useless, especially with those cooldowns. What’s that, want Dragonhunter too? Guess that limits your options, doesn’t (it) (geez this censor is ridiculous)? Especially since the Dragonhunter traitline is full of garbage anyway. At least Berserker traits look like they’ll be worth taking, even if you’re giving up something else for them. Not to mention that all we’re getting is a hardly functioning longbow and traps that can’t possibly be any better than rage skills that can actually be used on demand.

Feel free to think what you want, but I can guarantee you that a good portion of Guardian players here would swap the elite spec they’re getting in a heartbeat. Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

I 100000 agree with this. I think Berserker has amazing potential, but I said as of right now, its awful

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

What’s wrong with pretty things? You to need to embrace the pretty wonders of the world.

As a burn guardian for years, I serve Rodgort. Pretty things usually burn, so that’s why I try to keep them away.

The lead designer of the Guardian have yet to “Fix” Spirit weapons and that is after 3 years of hope. I don’t know if there is anyone who use spirit weapons seriously anymore or even could dream of a time when they can be used.

They got rid of Tome of Courage and replace it with Signet of Courage. I can’t even understand how that went trough. By no means was Tome of Courage a perfect skill. But replacing it with the current Signet of Courage has to be on the same scale as avoiding a pothole only to step of a mountain.

Everything we have seen so far is a disaster with the new Specialization. From casting time on Virtues, mixing a range weapon with a close quarter utility’s, and the same utility’s are terrible compared with what we have currently.

I will admit this have been beta data, and as we know that is very likely to change and they have even announced some changes that look promising however.

I will not hold my breath waiting for something to change as i have been disappointed to many times with the decision the team has taken on Guardian and i would not even be surprised if the whole specialization together with traps turn out to be Spirit weapons 2.0.

Let’s wait for them to give hp to traps like they did for spirit weapons.

Perikittenor.1892:

The lead designer of the Guardian have yet to “Fix” Spirit weapons and that is after 3 years of hope. I don’t know if there is anyone who use spirit weapons seriously anymore or even could dream of a time when they can be used.

Have you tried them at low level (20’s)? I’ve watched them solo Veterans. And they basically auto-taunt. I can grind a critter down to half health and a spirit sword will take agro with 1 swing. It’s not they’re never good, it’s that they don’t scale correctly with level. I don’t know where the curve breaks down or why Karl hasn’t done any visible tinkering with them, but to be honest, ANet doesn’t seem to have very good luck with pet AI/stats of any sort… Spirit weapons may be a symptom of a larger problem.

They got rid of Tome of Courage and replace it with Signet of Courage. I can’t even understand how that went through.

See the new system for how hero points are used to unlock skills? See how every profession has exactly 5 skill lines and everything fits into them? That’s how it went through. The tomes had to go and new skills had to be plucked from the wreckage of the old tomes to fit the new paradigm. I like healing builds and I still agree the new signet is garbage with its current numbers, but how it happened really isn’t that hard to follow. You can basically peek under the hood and see “rushed job” stamped all over it.

Everything we have seen so far is a disaster with the new Specialization.

Ooo. Dramatic . Would you consider the changes being made a disaster? ‘Cause those are part of the Espec too and I think they’re moving the right direction myself.

From casting time on Virtues

“How can we get them stop using RF on every build…?”

mixing a range weapon with close quarter utilities

So, are you running bow/scepter a lot, or do you have a melee load-out in the other weapon slots? Just checking.

and the same utility’s are terrible compared with what we have currently.

You do realize that traps are the one aspect of the Dragonhunter that hasn’t had it’s revamp since the initial presentation revealed yet, right?

I will admit this have been beta data, and as we know that is very likely to change and they have even announced some changes that look promising however.

Ah, realism. Then lets be realistic — it’s not going to change enough to be what you want, but there hope it will change enough to produce some solidly competitive builds in the hands of people who want to make something with the tools that are being offered.

I will not hold my breath waiting for something to change as i have been disappointed to many times with the decision the team has taken on Guardian and i would not even be surprised if the whole specialization together with traps turn out to be Spirit weapons 2.0.

With ya there. I’m just as baffled that they haven’t tried something to improve spirit weapons. To me if you’re gonna have a 6 month balance pass cycle, those cycles need to be comprehensive and Guardian (and every other profession) has had issues left on the back burner for more than a year at a time.

We’re getting the Dragonhunter trait line added to our box of tools. The “scrap and start over” cries are NOT going to carry the day, so lets hope instead they take some of the countless ideas put forward for making the effectiveness commiserate with the downside (casting time on virtues, interpreted-by-moving skills on the bows, underpowered ‘old style’ traits, cast time-&-arm time traps with zero range) so that launch day (or soon after, sad but possible) we get an Espec line that has some parts and pieces that can be fashioned into a competitive whole after theory craft finally turns into real build testing.

Whether Dragonhunter is “good” or not is an opinion.

No.

Whether the Dragonhunter is fun is an opinion.
Whether it is good or bad is a statement of fact.

Right now, even with the upcoming changes, Dragonhunters are bad, as in not viable worthwhile option. Fact.

That doesn’t mean you or others wont have fun playing it.

I like how 96 hours of play and the absolute knowledge that there are changes on the way provides such bedrock for the fact crowd. Bonus points for working “viable” in there as if it isn’t a floating bar.

Nike.2631:

Perikittenor.1892:

The lead designer of the Guardian have yet to “Fix” Spirit weapons and that is after 3 years of hope. I don’t know if there is anyone who use spirit weapons seriously anymore or even could dream of a time when they can be used.

Have you tried them at low level (20’s)? I’ve watched them solo Veterans. And they basically auto-taunt. I can grind a critter down to half health and a spirit sword will take agro with 1 swing. It’s not they’re never good, it’s that they don’t scale correctly with level. I don’t know where the curve breaks down or why Karl hasn’t done any visible tinkering with them, but to be honest, ANet doesn’t seem to have very good luck with pet AI/stats of any sort… Spirit weapons may be a symptom of a larger problem.

They got rid of Tome of Courage and replace it with Signet of Courage. I can’t even understand how that went through.

See the new system for how hero points are used to unlock skills? See how every profession has exactly 5 skill lines and everything fits into them? That’s how it went through. The tomes had to go and new skills had to be plucked from the wreckage of the old tomes to fit the new paradigm. I like healing builds and I still agree the new signet is garbage with its current numbers, but how it happened really isn’t that hard to follow. You can basically peek under the hood and see “rushed job” stamped all over it.

Everything we have seen so far is a disaster with the new Specialization.

Ooo. Dramatic . Would you consider the changes being made a disaster? ‘Cause those are part of the Espec too and I think they’re moving the right direction myself.

From casting time on Virtues

“How can we get them stop using RF on every build…?”

mixing a range weapon with close quarter utilities

So, are you running bow/scepter a lot, or do you have a melee load-out in the other weapon slots? Just checking.

and the same utility’s are terrible compared with what we have currently.

You do realize that traps are the one aspect of the Dragonhunter that hasn’t had it’s revamp since the initial presentation revealed yet, right?

I will admit this have been beta data, and as we know that is very likely to change and they have even announced some changes that look promising however.

Ah, realism. Then lets be realistic — it’s not going to change enough to be what you want, but there hope it will change enough to produce some solidly competitive builds in the hands of people who want to make something with the tools that are being offered.

I will not hold my breath waiting for something to change as i have been disappointed to many times with the decision the team has taken on Guardian and i would not even be surprised if the whole specialization together with traps turn out to be Spirit weapons 2.0.

With ya there. I’m just as baffled that they haven’t tried something to improve spirit weapons. To me if you’re gonna have a 6 month balance pass cycle, those cycles need to be comprehensive and Guardian (and every other profession) has had issues left on the back burner for more than a year at a time.

We’re getting the Dragonhunter trait line added to our box of tools. The “scrap and start over” cries are NOT going to carry the day, so lets hope instead they take some of the countless ideas put forward for making the effectiveness commiserate with the downside (casting time on virtues, interpreted-by-moving skills on the bows, underpowered ‘old style’ traits, cast time-&-arm time traps with zero range) so that launch day (or soon after, sad but possible) we get an Espec line that has some parts and pieces that can be fashioned into a competitive whole after theory craft finally turns into real build testing.

Dragonhunter won’t be viable in spvp and wvw. Traps are not doing anything to support you (cleansing condies, stability, stun break) they don’t even give condies to enemies anymore. Using traps would be suicide. Giving up meditations (or shouts) for something that might not work if enemy dodge it is just worthless. Traps need to be like LB 5# imobilizing everything in it because DH dont have 25% movement trait at all. (having no mobility for hunters is just bad). Personally I like bow, maybe slight buffs for it are needed, but traps are no go in pvp,wvw, and especially in pve. I think lots of DH will be kicked from pve queues like necros recently.

I stand by what i said, and i said that everything we have seen so far is a disaster.

We have yet to see the changes they do want to implement and i also clearly stated that what we have to base our data on is early beta so i may well be wrong.

RF is not being over used i would dare to say that FMW is the new overused Elite.
And RF is not used primarily for Virtue recharge although that is a nice plus, RF is used as a 3 second invulnerability where the opponent have to either sit and wait. Or switch target, either waste valuable time.

Problem with a melee weapon combined with Dragonhunter, is a missed out or wasted damage / traits. Not saying it will not work, but something working is not the same as being good.
The problem could be compared with the scepter trait being placed in Zeal.
Sure it works as your other weapon can have symbol, but while you are using the scepter itself all those minor are being wasted and potentially a GM trait as well.

You are agreeing yet i have to point out that Spirit weapons soloing a level 20 Veteran is not something i would consider strong.
I never had any issue while leveling and the game should be balanced around level 80. Not around level 20 – 40.

And i will say it once again. I may be wrong and Dragonhunter may turn out to be awesome. However, from what we have seen it is a terrible mess, and i would not touch it current state, even with a teen foot pole.

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

Perikittenor.1892:

Problem with a melee weapon combined with Dragonhunter, is a missed out or wasted damage / traits. Not saying it will not work, but something working is not the same as being good.

a lot of damage traits are conditional. The ones that are harder to maintain are however heigher. I think a lot lesse people would have a porblem with the trait if it was 20%. There are numerous examples of minors that only give benefit in certain situations. other then that DH can provide a steady 10%+ another 15% short duration damage modifier that will also burn and cripple. That is not as bad as you make it out to be.

you can actually create a reasonable combo of a total of 85% damage modifiers on longbow at 600 +range.

maybe our F2 should have been a 700 yards backwards retreat (wings of salvation) still rooting the target.

Perikittenor.1892:

The problem could be compared with the scepter trait being placed in Zeal.
Sure it works as your other weapon can have symbol, but while you are using the scepter itself all those minor are being wasted and potentially a GM trait as well.

Absolutely. That is the reason why I always feel torn when choosing complementing traitlines. You basically go in a traitline for 1 sometimes 2 specifics Trait and the otheres are more or less gap closeres. honor and valor are a perfect example. radiance has it too if you do not want to go burn guard.

personally I think Symbolic Avanger should create a Symbol of swiftness on dodge (in and out of combat) with a 10sec CD. This would be awsome and could also help uns with the swiftness issue.

Arnath.2319:

Whether Dragonhunter is “good” or not is an opinion.

No.

Whether the Dragonhunter is fun is an opinion.
Whether it is good or bad is a statement of fact.

Right now, even with the upcoming changes, Dragonhunters are bad, as in not viable worthwhile option. Fact.

That doesn’t mean you or others wont have fun playing it.

Please tell me what definition of “good” you’re using that is universally accepted amongst every person in this thread, in the game, and even those who do not play the game. What is “good” or not differs for everyone. It is an opinion.

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Arnath.2319:

Whether Dragonhunter is “good” or not is an opinion.

No.

Whether the Dragonhunter is fun is an opinion.
Whether it is good or bad is a statement of fact.

Right now, even with the upcoming changes, Dragonhunters are bad, as in not viable worthwhile option. Fact.

That doesn’t mean you or others wont have fun playing it.

Please tell me what definition of “good” you’re using that is universally accepted amongst every person in this thread, in the game, and even those who do not play the game. What is “good” or not differs for everyone. It is an opinion.

1+1=2
Fact.
Maths is fun.
Opinion.

We know, FACT, that Dragonhunter is its current form even with the upcoming changes is not a viable option. This is pure maths, game mechanics, logic.

‘Good’ for us means something that is a viable, balanced option.

“Good” isn’t a math-like term. You reference “us”, but who knows who you’re speaking for. Certainly not me, and I’d expect many other people would pipe up that you don’t speak on their behalf either.

Viable is opinion. Balanced is also more opinion than fact, because with all the variance in builds and performance, there isn’t any real mathematical balance. Hand designers want to get close for sure, but they also want to intentionally create certain imbalances. This creates an intricate rock-paper-scissors effect all throughout the game. Because of that, what exactly feels balanced or not is certainly opinion and not factual, mathematical balance.

“Balanced” is a particular kind of output from the metrics. Metrics we’ll never see . And central to that output is when players of similar skill clash, one of them loses around half the time. Most players think ‘balanced’ means they win 90% of the time because they are obviously that much more skillful than anyone else .

And I find the use of ‘viable’ when discussing the effectiveness of a build particularly repulsive because its a binary term (alive/dead) being deliberately misused to try and drive a sense of false urgency. There is a spectrum. There are shades. Builds and their elements are more-or-less competitive, not all-or-nothing viable.

The threads that are trying to do good for the Guardian in general and Dragonhunter in particular are looking for ways to tune its competiveness upward, not looking for a magical viable/non-viable light switch. There is simply never going to be a moment where there’s a loud click and it goes from “dead” to “alive”. Especially in pure theory-craft like we’re having to do here while we wait for the next round of real testing.

Players think that they have a 50% win rate when it’s actually around 66%. There’s a distinct bias that we experience with statistical things because the brain cannot into statistics.

Talking about what we feel should change is great. Skill changes and balance updates are some of my favorite things in the game, or in competitive games in general. However, when asking for things to be changed, the mindset that drives those changes needs to be cohesive to the overall picture.

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Was just a stupid jab.
But saying that the performance of a condition doesnt have anything to Do with a build is incorrect. It makes or brakes trait and utility choices.

In burn gets nerfed some of them will not See as much play.

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Woh woh, hey hey,
Burn Guardians are not nearly as OP as Cele Ele burns. That’s mainly because Cele Ele can darn near instantly apply 7 burn stacks and spam cast RoF (a huge strategic skill that has the potential to apply 3+++ stacks of burns if used correctly) every 12s.

Every other condi class with burns are balanced. Guardian’s are most definitely balanced. We don’t even make good 1v1 builds.. power guards got us beat in that area.

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Woh woh, hey hey,
Burn Guardians are not nearly as OP as Cele Ele burns. That’s mainly because Cele Ele can darn near instantly apply 7 burn stacks and spam cast RoF (a huge strategic skill that has the potential to apply 3+++ stacks of burns if used correctly) every 12s.

Every other condi class with burns are balanced. Guardian’s are most definitely balanced. We don’t even make good 1v1 builds.. power guards got us beat in that area.

I was saying that burning as a whole is too strong. Blinding Ashes Eles are annoying. x_x

But anyway, it’s kind of problematic that burn can be used as a burst weapon when it’s meant to be DoT. I don’t mind it doing decent damage on non-condi builds, but they really need to tone down the scaling a bit.

Even though OP comes on a bit to strong i can just agree.

LB/traps/DH isnt competitive in any kind of game mode.

There is only one reason to ever equip a LB and that is to get the aoe from skill 4 and 5 in wvw and even that isnt true. Staff with a burn build is a much better aoe weapon as burning is designed at the moment.

Some might find the LB to be fun but its not in any way or form competitive due to the relative strength of the other traitlines, valor, virtues, radiance and honor in particular.

I’d agree all of that is true as the Dragonhunter appeared in the first BWE. Hopefully we’ll see suggestions and straight up buffs incorporated until what’s pushed to Live on October 23 has some potential to be competitive.

Its a long march to get there but the changes Karl mentioned were at least pointed in the right direction.

Brutaly.6257:

Some might find the LB to be fun but its not in any way or form competitive due to the relative strength of the other traitlines, valor, virtues, radiance and honor in particular.

This is true. unfortunately true.

I used to main guardian. Played it exclusively for the first half year of the games release. Despite the bugs, crap traits/lines that haven’t been fixed, weapon sets, etc.. I stuck with it because overall it still fit the theme I wanted to play – heavy armor, supportive front line like a knight/paladin.

I quit guard when they announced dragon hunter, no regrets there.. moved all my ascended armor sets and legendary to my warrior. Then they make a push for condi warrior (the berserker). While it’s not as utterly disappointing as this backline fairy of a ranger, it still doesn’t quite fit what MOST of us GUARDIAN MAINS were looking for.

Unfortunately guys (and girls), we have to hop that revenant will fill the hole in our hearts. xD Until then, I suggest swapping to warrior or ele for now. They are much better “guardians” in my opinion.

Feral.3609:

I used to main guardian. Played it exclusively for the first half year of the games release. Despite the bugs, crap traits/lines that haven’t been fixed, weapon sets, etc.. I stuck with it because overall it still fit the theme I wanted to play – heavy armor, supportive front line like a knight/paladin.

I quit guard when they announced dragon hunter, no regrets there.. moved all my ascended armor sets and legendary to my warrior. Then they make a push for condi warrior (the berserker). While it’s not as utterly disappointing as this backline fairy of a ranger, it still doesn’t quite fit what MOST of us GUARDIAN MAINS were looking for.

Unfortunately guys (and girls), we have to hop that revenant will fill the hole in our hearts. xD Until then, I suggest swapping to warrior or ele for now. They are much better “guardians” in my opinion.

Guards are still amazing. Reflects, blinds, blocks, condi clense, perms protection for fractals if needed, stability, AND team wide quickness every 30 seconds. Not many classes offer that much team support while doing good damage.(ignoring dragon hunter of course)

DH offers an easy to maintain 10% damage modifier across all weapon sets. which other line does that?

Asmodal.6489:

DH offers an easy to maintain 10% damage modifier across all weapon sets. which other line does that?

So which line are you dropping for arah and fractals to bring DH?

Asmodal.6489:

DH offers an easy to maintain 10% damage modifier across all weapon sets. which other line does that?

You mean deal more dmg outside 600 range..so which sets are you talking about? scepter and LB?

Asmodal.6489:

DH offers an easy to maintain 10% damage modifier across all weapon sets. which other line does that?

Zeal did.

But then lol nerfed.

It’s not even a funny joke.

Black Box.9312:

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Woh woh, hey hey,
Burn Guardians are not nearly as OP as Cele Ele burns. That’s mainly because Cele Ele can darn near instantly apply 7 burn stacks and spam cast RoF (a huge strategic skill that has the potential to apply 3+++ stacks of burns if used correctly) every 12s.

Every other condi class with burns are balanced. Guardian’s are most definitely balanced. We don’t even make good 1v1 builds.. power guards got us beat in that area.

I was saying that burning as a whole is too strong. Blinding Ashes Eles are annoying. x_x

But anyway, it’s kind of problematic that burn can be used as a burst weapon when it’s meant to be DoT. I don’t mind it doing decent damage on non-condi builds, but they really need to tone down the scaling a bit.

I have to agree with Saiyan; burn guard is poor in 1v1, but excels in teamfights. It’s far from OP, and if burn guard is a “gimmick,” then what’s stopping every build from being a “gimmick” ?_?

I agree with Black Box that d/d ele’s burns are over the top, although I suspect that at least part of this issue lies in the fact that you can get an instant 12 burn stacks by being at the edge of the RoF. Anyways, to add a different perspective in response to the bolded quote above, I’ve humbly quoted myself from ~2 weeks ago.

Salamander.2504:

My 2 cents below:

The community has canonically believed that conditions builds are all about a “slow kill” and outlasting your opponent—the attrition standpoint. This is a natural conclusion because of the way condi damage ticks over time.

It is important to note, however, that condition damage is able to be cleansed at the opponents whim, given the right cooldown timings—i.e., condi damage is often cleansed after only a few ticks, or immediately. Given this, it seems logical that condi damage have high burst potential, with the caveat that it can be cleansed easily. In other words, condition builds naturally favor “bursting” to maximize the damage before a cleanse. Even when a condition build baits the opponent’s cleanses by applying condi’s slowly and methodically, they will always try to burst once the opponent’s cleanses are on CD.

Conquest as a game mode favors the quick-kill because: (1) you need the point to tick in your favor to win; (2) ending fights before getting +1’d increases your chance of survival/capping; and (3) allows your rotations to be more flexible, so it should be no surprise that both power and condition builds have the tools necessary to achieve a quick kill. Of course, both power and condi builds can be built for lower dps and higher tankiness, and thus can always be played to be either bursty or attrition-based, as the above posters discuss.

Salamander.2504:

Black Box.9312:

Saiyan.1704:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Berserker has far more potential than Dragonhunter ever will.

said the person that told everyone when burn stacking was anounced, that condi guards will suck.

I said that condi guard is a gimmick, actually, which it is. It just happens to be somewhat effective currently because of burning being too strong of a condition. It has nothing to do with the actual build.

Woh woh, hey hey,
Burn Guardians are not nearly as OP as Cele Ele burns. That’s mainly because Cele Ele can darn near instantly apply 7 burn stacks and spam cast RoF (a huge strategic skill that has the potential to apply 3+++ stacks of burns if used correctly) every 12s.

Every other condi class with burns are balanced. Guardian’s are most definitely balanced. We don’t even make good 1v1 builds.. power guards got us beat in that area.

I was saying that burning as a whole is too strong. Blinding Ashes Eles are annoying. x_x

But anyway, it’s kind of problematic that burn can be used as a burst weapon when it’s meant to be DoT. I don’t mind it doing decent damage on non-condi builds, but they really need to tone down the scaling a bit.

I have to agree with Saiyan; burn guard is poor in 1v1, but excels in teamfights. It’s far from OP, and if burn guard is a “gimmick,” then what’s stopping every build from being a “gimmick” ?_?

I agree with Black Box that d/d ele’s burns are over the top, although I suspect the majority of this issue lies in the fact that you can get an instant 12 burn stacks by being at the edge of the RoF. Anyways, to add a different perspective in response to the bolded quote above, I’ve humbly quoted myself from ~2 weeks ago.

Salamander.2504:

My 2 cents below:

The community has canonically believed that conditions builds are all about a “slow kill” and outlasting your opponent—the attrition standpoint. This is a natural conclusion because of the way condi damage ticks over time.

It is important to note, however, that condition damage is able to be cleansed at the opponents whim, given the right cooldown timings—i.e., condi damage is often cleansed after only a few ticks, or immediately. Given this, it seems logical that condi damage have high burst potential, with the caveat that it can be cleansed easily. In other words, condition builds naturally favor “bursting” to maximize the damage before a cleanse. Even when a condition build baits the opponent’s cleanses by applying condi’s slowly and methodically, they will always try to burst once the opponent’s cleanses are on CD.

Conquest as a game mode favors the quick-kill because: (1) you need the point to tick in your favor to win; (2) ending fights before getting +1’d increases your chance of survival/capping; and (3) allows your rotations to be more flexible, so it should be no surprise that both power and condition builds have the tools necessary to achieve a quick kill. Of course, both power and condi builds can be built for lower dps and higher tankiness, and thus can always be played to be either bursty or attrition-based, as the above posters discuss.

The key with condition builds, however, is that because condition application exceeds condition removal, it becomes a matter of overwhelming your opponent over time by applying more than can be cleansed. Conditions already win in the long run just because of how frequently and easily they can be applied, so there’s no need for them to deal so much damage before any sort of cleanses can be used.

There’s also the problem with the way condition damage scales. In order to deal high burst damage using a power build, you need to sacrifice survivability. There’s a tradeoff involved; you have to kill your opponent quickly, otherwise they will kill you quickly. Because of how well condition damage scales with just one stat instead of needing three like power builds, you see builds that can kill at an alarmingly fast rate without sacrificing any of that survivability. This is why if you ever try to roam in WvW where stats aren’t normalized you see silly builds like dire p/d thief that are near impossible to kill. They have so much condition pressure, but can still take pretty much anything you can dish at them.

Black Box.9312:

The key with condition builds, however, is that because condition application exceeds condition removal, it becomes a matter of overwhelming your opponent over time by applying more than can be cleansed. Conditions already win in the long run just because of how frequently and easily they can be applied, so there’s no need for them to deal so much damage before any sort of cleanses can be used.

Well, I disagree on the basis that that is how power damage works also, with the caveat that power damage can be healed only, while condition damage can be both cleansed and healed.

Black Box.9312:

There’s also the problem with the way condition damage scales. In order to deal high burst damage using a power build, you need to sacrifice survivability. There’s a tradeoff involved; you have to kill your opponent quickly, otherwise they will kill you quickly. Because of how well condition damage scales with just one stat instead of needing three like power builds, you see builds that can kill at an alarmingly fast rate without sacrificing any of that survivability. This is why if you ever try to roam in WvW where stats aren’t normalized you see silly builds like dire p/d thief that are near impossible to kill. They have so much condition pressure, but can still take pretty much anything you can dish at them.

No arguments here: I’m speaking purely from an sPvP perspective, where Dire would indeed be overpowered, but carrion, rabid, settlers, and rampager’s are well balanced.

In my opinion, full meditation skills and specializatons on Guardian is still the best, that should be renamed elite skill…
After Gw2 Heart of thrones the best profession will be the Necromencer, belive me!
I have to level up my Necro ’till then!

I find it funny that people are asking for traps to be removed.

Its not happening people. How about add constructive feedback so that Anet so they can fix what we’re stuck with? Not every specs going to please everyone, reroll a guardian when we get one that brings back Tomes as Kits or something.

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

DH offers an easy to maintain 10% damage modifier across all weapon sets. which other line does that?

Zeal did.

But then lol nerfed.

exactly. which would make DH actually the got to DPS line in conjunction with Zealot’s Aggression and Dulled Senses. you can expect a steady 10%+5% damage increase. heck get 50% condiduration in and we are looking at 20% with a little ramp up time.

yes the minors are questionable in function and placement. But the traitline offers a definite dps option esepcially if you are not running GS – with a very good GM Trait that helps.

@ Karl:
looking at other classes and I get the feeling some of their devs tend to get a little overboard with the chance of getting nerfs later on. You seem to me like a guy that wants to avoid that. however sometimes its good to aim a little higher to land where you want. So I am okay with tiny steps. How about making hunters fortification covnert condis into boons. ;-)

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

DH offers an easy to maintain 10% damage modifier across all weapon sets. which other line does that?

Zeal did.

But then lol nerfed.

exactly. which would make DH actually the got to DPS line in conjunction with Zealot’s Aggression and Dulled Senses. you can expect a steady 10%+5% damage increase. heck get 50% condiduration in and we are looking at 20% with a little ramp up time.

What also needs to be cleared up if Dulled senses actually procs 3 stack of vurnability if you hit the target with torch or purging flames. if it does it would be even better.

yes the minors are questionable in function and placement. But the traitline offers a definite dps option esepcially if you are not running GS – with a very good GM Trait that helps.

@ Karl:
looking at other classes and I get the feeling some of their devs tend to get a little overboard with the chance of getting nerfs later on. You seem to me like a guy that wants to avoid that. however sometimes its good to aim a little higher to land where you want. So I am okay with tiny steps. How about making hunters fortification covnert condis into boons. ;-)

You missed my point entirely. Zeal had a pretty easily accessible +10% damage modifier, but it was deemed “too powerful”, so it got the nerfbat. Meanwhile, they’re trying to make the DH traitline look more appealing by putting some of our lost damage there instead.

It’s not working, and people like me are kittened off that they’d do something so obnoxious. Just ask any Thief player.

I cannot wait for long range high dps 1 hit ko guardian burn bow trap meta, new meta 5x dragon hunter… this specialization is perfect and exactly what we needed (I take this all back DH too stronk).

Black Box.9312:

You missed my point entirely. Zeal had a pretty easily accessible +10% damage modifier, but it was deemed “too powerful”, so it got the nerfbat. Meanwhile, they’re trying to make the DH traitline look more appealing by putting some of our lost damage there instead.

It’s not working, and people like me are kittened off that they’d do something so obnoxious. Just ask any Thief player.

So I missed you point entirely from this …

Black Box.9312:

Zeal did.

But then lol nerfed.

Next time maybe make a point?

So now that you have actually made one. I think we getting to the root of the problem. You think that a 3% damage nerf to an easy 10% damage modifer is a scheme to make a
DH look better which uses the exact same mechanic.

So its not working for you. because you can not trait zeal and DH together? At least make the point that this is actually only a valid for our lost honor, scepter or sword damage trait.

I get (now) what you are saying. However I do not agree with you.
- The 3% are a non issue
- The lost honor 10% are not really an issue since you wouldnt spec that traitline if you would go for a high dps build anyway. if it was still there you probably would go for DH anyways. if you are not running shout honor is waste. (which is a whole different story)
- scepter trait has seen as much game play as spirit weapons. It actually benefits from DH because of the additional 10% damage modifier in there. IF you want to play scepter DH will be the go to traitline for dps builds. as it can provide a 35% damage multiplier alone.

So all in all we lost the 10% sword mastery, which only applies IF you use these weapons (which however would be likely for sword). That is an issue. but instead of embracing a traitline that can add 25% damage modifiers to a burst with any weapon, you gripe about a 3% damage nerf.

Power has been systematically removed from the core traitlines just to be added to this mess you call the dragonhunter.

Zeal took over a 15% DPS hit

Radiance lost quite a bit too

Honor lost 10% as well which actually makes a difference in PVP as you are dodging quite a bit

This approach MUST stop

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

You missed my point entirely. Zeal had a pretty easily accessible +10% damage modifier, but it was deemed “too powerful”, so it got the nerfbat. Meanwhile, they’re trying to make the DH traitline look more appealing by putting some of our lost damage there instead.

It’s not working, and people like me are kittened off that they’d do something so obnoxious. Just ask any Thief player.

So I missed you point entirely from this …

Black Box.9312:

Zeal did.

But then lol nerfed.

Next time maybe make a point?

So now that you have actually made one. I think we getting to the root of the problem. You think that a 3% damage nerf to an easy 10% damage modifer is a scheme to make a
DH look better which uses the exact same mechanic.

So its not working for you. because you can not trait zeal and DH together? At least make the point that this is actually only a valid for our lost honor, scepter or sword damage trait.

I get (now) what you are saying. However I do not agree with you.
- The 3% are a non issue
- The lost honor 10% are not really an issue since you wouldnt spec that traitline if you would go for a high dps build anyway. if it was still there you probably would go for DH anyways. if you are not running shout honor is waste. (which is a whole different story)
- scepter trait has seen as much game play as spirit weapons. It actually benefits from DH because of the additional 10% damage modifier in there. IF you want to play scepter DH will be the go to traitline for dps builds. as it can provide a 35% damage multiplier alone.

So all in all we lost the 10% sword mastery, which only applies IF you use these weapons (which however would be likely for sword). That is an issue. but instead of embracing a traitline that can add 25% damage modifiers to a burst with any weapon, you gripe about a 3% damage nerf.

I will gripe about damage nerfs because they were completely unjustified.

-There was no reason to nerf Fiery Wrath. Overall burning uptime was already reduced anyway with the rework (especially in PvE), so although it’s only -3% directly, it’s actually considerably less powerful than the original iteration. Even then, the competition post-nerf still doesn’t come anywhere close to being as desirable.

-I actually used the scepter trait in one of my old builds. The new trait is inferior, in direct competition with Fiery Wrath, and does not stack with existing might. It’s a nerf to a weapon that already needs more QoL fixes as is.

-The removal of the sword trait was also entirely unnecessary. Sword is another weapon of ours that needs QoL fixes rather than nerfs, so there was no reason at all to get rid of the trait that made it actually worth using.

-The change to Radiant Power was also unnecessary. Had it stayed at +25% critical chance against burning targets, then maybe it might have been roughly as effective as the flat +10% damage increase, but lowering it to +10% critical chance is a hard nerf, since it now only works with burning instead of any condition, and as I said above, burning uptime is much harder to maintain.

-Elusive Power was the only source of extra damage that Bunker Guardians had, which makes it especially baffling that they’d get rid of it considering how little damage Bunker Guardian does anyway. It was also very nice for offensive builds that took Honor, which, news flash, some people actually did do. Yet another unjustified nerf.

-I’ll throw in an honorable mention here and add Symbolic Avenger getting cut in half before it could even be field tested. Looking at how many damage modifiers they already stole away, it makes no sense that they’d do something so drastic to a GM trait that is already contingent upon the enemy staying in our symbols that we have no CC to hold them in. Dumb change.

There are some pretty significant problems with our damage modifiers being moved to the Dragonhunter traitline. First, it forces players to abandon a traitline with other utility traits that may be more worthwhile for offensive builds just to get some extra conditional damage modifiers, which is compounded by the fact that these new modifiers have stupid requirements like staying beyond 600 range with a primarily melee class. Second, this eliminates any chance of us taking this extra damage with any future elite spec that comes out that may be more appealing. Since DH is pretty awful, there are going to be a lot of people that will be unhappy with this if they want to take the elite spec. Third, did I mention that DH traits are awful? Because they’re awful. Condition builds are not going to sacrifice Radiance for the likes of Defender’s Dogma. DPS builds are not going to give up Fiery Wrath for Pure of Sight. These traits are bad, and whoever designed them should feel bad.

So yeah, I’m a bit peeved that they’re trying to pawn our own stolen merchandise to us. It only makes it look worse that they basically shoved it in the dirt first.

DH at the top most level will be the most laughable spec ever in existence in pvp history for gw2. I know for a fact that thing will not even see the light of day anywhere near the top teams.

Feedback? Feedback for something that’s to broken to be fixed? Lol you will have an easier time winning the lottery 10 times over then fixing DH. Scrapping it is the best bet and starting over but once again, anets lack of listening to guardians is what got them in their position.

They need new guardian devs. Plain and simple.

Black Box.9312:

DPS builds are not going to give up Fiery Wrath for Pure of Sight.

I hope you mean zealots aggression.

again its geat that you only shine hte light at things that matter to you. everything was better in the old days, right?. Traits that no one used are now relevant because you had them in a build.

you only see the glass half empty. it is a fact that you can take the radiance traitline and have higher overall crit chance with any wepaon now then before the changes. but you just focus on the sword and call it a hard nerf.

there are lots of others example in you post just along this line. taht does not mean they are invalid. and ned to be looked at. but overall I feel Guardian is now a lot more powerful then before. stronger then others? maybe not.

DH got no synergy to any of the current weapon. Spending time to figure out how to compliment with other weapons, the only synonymy is with Blind combo, thats it.

Im not gonna spend any money on HoT with this screwing up on my favorite class.

yLoon.5289:

DH got no synergy to any of the current weapon. Spending time to figure out how to compliment with other weapons, the only synonymy is with Blind combo, thats it.

Im not gonna spend any money on HoT with this screwing up on my favorite class.

Meditation DH with bow+ GS/hammer only viable way to play it for sure…

If aint medi based build prepare to be deafeated… lol

I haven’t played dragonhunter, only played reaper really and some rev. So I can’t comment much, but will say that the traps need to be able to be placed at range. I mean the whole thing with dragonhunter is that it’s using it’s energy or light to create the traps, so I don’t see why they can’t add in a sort of like pillar shining down on where the trap is being placed on the initial cast, similar to what happens when a warrior summons a banner.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I haven’t played dragonhunter, only played reaper really and some rev. So I can’t comment much, but will say that the traps need to be able to be placed at range. I mean the whole thing with dragonhunter is that it’s using it’s energy or light to create the traps, so I don’t see why they can’t add in a sort of like pillar shining down on where the trap is being placed on the initial cast, similar to what happens when a warrior summons a banner.

It’s essentially because the whole elite specialization was half kittened. My guess is that each of the devs that are managing an elite spec (Robert Gee, Karl, Roy, etc.) each got assigned a few to manage. Basically we got the short end of the straw and our dev did nothing to actually make this work. It was like a kid turning in a homework assignment just trying to get the passing “C”. I mean, come on, even the name reeks of lack of effort.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I haven’t played dragonhunter, only played reaper really and some rev. So I can’t comment much, but will say that the traps need to be able to be placed at range. I mean the whole thing with dragonhunter is that it’s using it’s energy or light to create the traps, so I don’t see why they can’t add in a sort of like pillar shining down on where the trap is being placed on the initial cast, similar to what happens when a warrior summons a banner.

That is a really good idea, really, I like it. Too bad noone listens to players so we get crappy product, I mean class.