Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

Here is my secret; I read. Anet already told us why they are balancing these things. That and I don’t assume Anet is lying to me. I save my conspiracy theory powers for good, not evil.

Arenanet told us a bunch of lies in a incomputable amount of times; from not going to introduce stats above exotics, to not ever releasing an expansion and keeping the Living Story model of content, etc.

In a recent example: just before the HoT release told us that gliding wasn’t a possibility due would disrupt the old gameplay, but now seems that gliding at old Tyria is ok and will arrive in just matters of weeks. The last notes about the balance patches are to a large extent a mix between vagueness and ornated words that means nothing.

Lets take a look over their exact words:

“The dragonhunter elite specialization has proven to have a very solid impact in many areas of the game, but they’ve been a tad too effective in the areas of burst and disruption, and we’ll be looking to make slight adjustments in those areas.”

Which solid impact? DH is a subpar dps class in PvE. In WvW the area damage role and area cc role from DH is much better suited by Necros/Reapers (wells), Eles/Tempest (Static Field) or Chronos (Gravity Well). In PvP ther’s no single Guard/DH in the 80 Pro League roster.

Makes me laugh that in the current bunker meta in which, sometimes, takes more than 5 minutes to score a single point in some of the Pro League matches, Arenanet is calling “the DH is TAD TOO EFFECTIVE IN THE BURST AND DISRUPTION AREAS”.

So you say that Anet is telling us the why of those changes, and I call they explanations are absurd, meaningless. I have no conspiracy theories about Anet, because that would mean that they have a plan, that someone is at the rudder. They don’t. They are just being reactive to the vocal complaints in the forums because they are afraid of their customers. Traps are being nerfed not because they are too effective -they aren’t, at all, in any contento of the game- but because people which refuse to learn to play keep complaining in the forums.

An I think that is wrong because I didn’t saw a single evidence of OPness from DHs traps in any area of the game. Where you saw those evidences, Obtena?

I don’t need evidence. I just read words. The words I read regarding these upcoming changes make sense to me WITHOUT resorting to stories about being lied to or imposing my own ideas of what should be that isn’t.

You’re still stuck on this idea of ‘being OPed’. That’s not how many things are balanced. That’s why you don’t understand it. It’s EXACTLY as simply as Anet said; they want less bursty/disruption in DH; that’s going to get fixed. It’s not anything more than that; a reality that doesn’t match their concept.

Does that make sense? Do we like it? It seems to me that after playing MMO’s for a reasonable amount of time that it doesn’t seem to matter in the minds of a developer. Once you realize that, you can stop being angry about things you don’t understand.

@ Obtena

You have to admit though they did a nerf based on cries from noobs and idiots.

Guardian is practically absent from mid-high end PvP and completely absent from the top.

Honestly they could have avoided so much hassle by giving the guardian necro style marks or wells.
They would not work for ambush style play
They would wear off before the Cd is up
But
They would be ranged
They would share boons granted with allies.

It would have been better for balance and been more flexible.

The fact they went with traps over all the other skill types they could have gone with just shows how little they know what they are doing when it comes to the guardian.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

You have to admit though they did a nerf based on cries from noobs and idiots.

They barely care what hoots and snorting noises passes through these forums. They have tools that let them look at every match ever played through 171 filters and what they were seeing is what they addressed.

Our trap dazing was a little too consistent and the initial damage from Test of Faith a little too reliable from a profession that has lots of tools to shove and push people through the boundary against their will.

These changes are not going to knock Dragonhunters out of any positions they hold now, and it gives them some breathing room to improve them slightly in other areas without leapfrogging straight to the top of the heap for competitiveness.

And if your jaw didn’t drop that Smite Condition got a buff, you’re either not paying attention or deliberately ignoring it to make an already flawed argument that much more dishonest.

Smite condition buff isn’t better than what some other classes got. Nor will it raise the Guardian to the next level.

Until Arena Net decides to look at the data they have this game isn’t going anywhere and it will never be balanced. It is a good attempt and shows willingness but it isn’t anywhere near what needed to be done.

Then again, I don’t get it. People kitten and moan yet continue to play. If it really is that bad, put your money where your mouth is and stop playing. Then, and only then, will the development and design team understand people are sick of the crap they are writing or putting out. Seriously…

The classes that “got better” than the Smite Condition buff are mostly bottom shelf chumps than needed it. Meanwhile the spotlight hogging Revenant is getting its wings clipped, and the completely OP choronmancer is being full-on eviscerated.

We don’t need to reach some illusionary “next level”. Holding position or moving up a smidgeon will do just fine when the current titans are getting thrashed with the nerf bat.

While I agree we don’t need something called “next level”. The game ebbs and flows to the flavor of the month classes and traits. I get it. But I’m not sure I agree with the bottom dweller piece. I mean come on, the thief is not a bottom dweller. I mean I’m not going to argue semantics over it so we just disagree – all good.

Well guardian burst was a bit high and spamming #2 didn’t help, daze was too powerful you could daze opponents like forever. But they could buff some areas that DH lacked, and that is buffing and survivability. I have a feeling that not one person that is balancing guards/dh have more than 10h played on them.

And buffing meditations, heck they were already good/solid. Why not buffing other areas like signets, spirit weapons heck 90% core guardian traits are crap.

But as I said before, you can’t balance stuff with <10h played.

I’m mean in a lot of ways.
I play the guard / DH as my main.
The DPS meter shows me that i have around 8-11k dps if i get my rotation right in the raid, a friend of mine as warrior has around 10-11k.
I mean the dps is ok, but i am so squishy. One hit and i’m down, i have a rotation with symbol f1 ability my elite shout, the trap and so on which is medium easy/hard. he just spams greatsword.

So the dps is ok’ish for me, could be a bit higher (i use GS – bow)

But in pvp the guard is just viable as a dps prop. one or two hits and i’m down and fast finished. normally the dh is target no 1.
When anet nerfs the traps i mean the mediburst guard could be viable but it needs buffs, and in pve we need adjustments.
i dont like the spirit weapons but they could get buffed and also our shouts (the elite maybe gets alacrity), lets get stack aegis with “retreat” 3? stacks, “safe yourself” should apply all boons so if you get slowed you get superspeed etc.
maybe higher burn dmg.
The hammer as i dont like it because of missing mobility needs rework in general it should deal higher dps as the GS because of the slower chain.

But i guess i need to make a new char and call it “revenent” because all of which the guardian was good the rev is much better and he deals higher dmg..

I’m mean in a lot of ways.
I play the guard / DH as my main.
The DPS meter shows me that i have around 8-11k dps if i get my rotation right in the raid, a friend of mine as warrior has around 10-11k.
I mean the dps is ok, but i am so squishy. One hit and i’m down, i have a rotation with symbol f1 ability my elite shout, the trap and so on which is medium easy/hard. he just spams greatsword.

So the dps is ok’ish for me, could be a bit higher (i use GS – bow)

But in pvp the guard is just viable as a dps prop. one or two hits and i’m down and fast finished. normally the dh is target no 1.
When anet nerfs the traps i mean the mediburst guard could be viable but it needs buffs, and in pve we need adjustments.
i dont like the spirit weapons but they could get buffed and also our shouts (the elite maybe gets alacrity), lets get stack aegis with “retreat” 3? stacks, “safe yourself” should apply all boons so if you get slowed you get superspeed etc.
maybe higher burn dmg.
The hammer as i dont like it because of missing mobility needs rework in general it should deal higher dps as the GS because of the slower chain.

But i guess i need to make a new char and call it “revenent” because all of which the guardian was good the rev is much better and he deals higher dmg..

Nike.2631:

These changes are not going to knock Dragonhunters out of any positions they hold now, and it gives them some breathing room to improve them slightly in other areas without leapfrogging straight to the top of the heap for competitiveness.

And if your jaw didn’t drop that Smite Condition got a buff, you’re either not paying attention or deliberately ignoring it to make an already flawed argument that much more dishonest.

DH will still be outside the meta: the changes in Revenenant didn’t hurt their most competitive build (condi Mallyx) and the currtent dominance by Chronos and Eles will be partially replaced by Reapers, Scrappers and Druids, which are in better state that the “good spot” in which DH are. Probably we will fall from 7th to 8th due the enenhacements to Thieves -which at least can provide some use as viable decapers-.

Smite Condition was the first meditation I ride off my skill bar to place ToF due isn’t able to breakstun as JI or CoP, so the buff is meaningless. To a condi Reaper, or Herald being able to cleanse 2 conditions each 16 seconds is is rrelevant, because they can spam condis with autoattacks. Same with the condi Scrappers.

Nike.2631:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

You have to admit though they did a nerf based on cries from noobs and idiots.

They barely care what hoots and snorting noises passes through these forums. They have tools that let them look at every match ever played through 171 filters and what they were seeing is what they addressed.

Yeah, exactly this …

When a crusty player decides it’s convenient to them, they say Anet listens to noobs on the forums. When a crusty player decides it’s convenient to them, they say Anet ignores people on the forums.

Um, it’s not BOTH. So no, I don’t admit that these changes are due to noobs and idiots complaining on the forums, no less than I admit that the things we ARE getting buffed are due to anyone on the forum complaining they need to be better.

I think the truth is what I’ve been saying all along … I don’t think forum talk factors very much, if at all, into any decision regarding class development, for ANY game that I have ever played at least. That’s the dev’s job, not the players.

Obtena.7952:

Nike.2631:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

You have to admit though they did a nerf based on cries from noobs and idiots.

They barely care what hoots and snorting noises passes through these forums. They have tools that let them look at every match ever played through 171 filters and what they were seeing is what they addressed.

Yeah, exactly this …

When a crusty player decides it’s convenient to them, they say Anet listens to noobs on the forums. When a crusty player decides it’s convenient to them, they say Anet ignores people on the forums.

Um, it’s not BOTH. So no, I don’t admit that these changes are due to noobs and idiots complaining on the forums, no less than I admit that the things we ARE getting buffed are due to anyone on the forum complaining they need to be better.

I think the truth is what I’ve been saying all along … I don’t think forum talk factors very much, if at all, into any decision regarding class development, for ANY game that I have ever played at least. That’s the dev’s job, not the players.

That they have tons upon tons of data showing how many people play what, what skills get used & where they get used is long since accepted & known.

As for them listening to talk on the forum. Yea by and large they pretty much ignore it unless it rises to a fever pitch or is an issue that threatens to cost them players.

Knowing all of this however puts a pretty clear picture that they did do the nerf due to low end play. It could not have been due to high end PvP because the dragonhunter & guardian is pretty much absent from high end PvP.

Lastly as for weather or not they will actually improve that much on the core guardian & if it will ever become part of the meta in PvE or PvP again We will see the 26th.

Nike.2631:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

You have to admit though they did a nerf based on cries from noobs and idiots.

And if your jaw didn’t drop that Smite Condition got a buff, you’re either not paying attention or deliberately ignoring it to make an already flawed argument that much more dishonest.

The change to smite condition is alright & a first step in the right direction.

I’m really not going to critique changes that have not happened yet however.

I have mainly critiqued changes/decisions they have made in the past & have questioned weather or not they give a crap how imbalanced the game is given how predictably bad some of their past decisions were (for instance giving traps to guardians, allowing guardians ability to do boon/anti condition support to fall so far behind others, letting guardians become so sub par as a bunker or bruiser vs other options)

As to weather or not the guard is in a solid spot after the 26th and can compete other classes who are vying for its job in PvP/PvE will just have to wait and see.

This night the EU Pro League bring me a lot of laughts; I was almost in tears when I saw More Guns Than Roses going 2 Warr 1 DH 1 Thief in the first match against Rank 55 Dragons. They were rolfstomped and lost 0-501, proving how " DH is TAD TOO EFFECTIVE IN THE BURST AND DISRUPTION AREAS" -amongst other poor classes-. The second match More Guns did change to they regular rooster of Chronos and Heralds and were able to get like ~70 points (not much, but at least the fights didn’t feel like executions).

Can’t wait to PvP Season 2 to stare in awe how glorious and awesome our future in high end PvP after the changes will be. /sarcasm

Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made. You can cite all the examples of DH getting ROFLstomped you like; it doesn’t really matter because that’s not why Anet is changing stuff. Anet has no aspirations to see DH hit some specific level of PVP performance with respect to other professions. You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.

Obtena.7952:

Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made. You can cite all the examples of DH getting ROFLstomped you like; it doesn’t really matter because that’s not why Anet is changing stuff. Anet has no aspirations to see DH hit some specific level of PVP performance with respect to other professions. You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.

So in other words your saying they don’t give a flying $%#@ if guardian ever becomes a viable class for high end PvP.

Depends what you call viable. I don’t think changing ‘bursty and disruptive’ aspects of DH makes it not viable.

Obtena.7952:

Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made. You can cite all the examples of DH getting ROFLstomped you like; it doesn’t really matter because that’s not why Anet is changing stuff. Anet has no aspirations to see DH hit some specific level of PVP performance with respect to other professions. You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.

What do you mean by that? Balance doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The only way DH can be too strong in terms of burst/disruption is in comparison to the other builds/classes available. So any changes they make are by comparison, and are about making the classes hit a specific level of performance. And most of their performance balance is based around PvP.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made. You can cite all the examples of DH getting ROFLstomped you like; it doesn’t really matter because that’s not why Anet is changing stuff. Anet has no aspirations to see DH hit some specific level of PVP performance with respect to other professions. You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.

What do you mean by that? Balance doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The only way DH can be too strong in terms of burst/disruption is in comparison to the other builds/classes available. So any changes they make are by comparison, and are about making the classes hit a specific level of performance. And most of their performance balance is based around PvP.

Overall performance of a class, even relative to others, is not determined by changing a very small number of its skills so to say it’s being done to target a change in performance relative to other classes is hard for me to understand. I’m also not going to assume that performance balance is based around PVP either, especially since we have seen Anet split a small number of skills in PVP to maintain PVE balance; seems to me that if they think they can maintain balance in both areas with a single change, they prefer it.

Obtena.7952:

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made…..You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.

…

Overall performance of a class, even relative to others, is not determined by changing a very small number of its skills…

Alright, let’s focus on some disagreements. If I don’t understand why this change is being made, explain to me why this change is being made, and what Anet’s expectations are relative to mine. And please elaborate the “even” there. What is the overall performance of a class without relativity to others, in a game where multiple classes exist to choose from?

Buran.3796:

Coming back to the “pattern” theme, they already have announced their way to “fix” the problem of the excessive sustain in the meta:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Upcoming-Changes-to-PvP-Runes-Sigils-Amulets

Essentially they will remove from PvP those amulets:

Soldier’s
Settler’s
Celestial
Sentinel

You see? The way Arenanet “solves” problems of balance isn’t trying to figure a way to keep some pairity between classes or ofering alternative viable builds for each class; but instead REMOVING things.

I think you misunderstood anet’s intentions with the amulet changes.

They aren’t trying to balance the meta, they are trying to shift it into something different. Likewise, they aren’t “simply removing” amulets from the game as much as they are replacing them with new ones.

Anet’s goals are to create an offensive-oriented meta and avoid extreme burst or extreme bunker builds. Because stats are a big part of that, especially for the bunker builds, they are replacing all amulets that offer massive sustain and good damage with somewhat more offensive/ less defensive alternatives.

So in this specific case, it’s not simply about removing things. Anet is clearly modifying an existing meta by replacing/ introducing new stat combos with a very clear purpose.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

Just another example of why you don’t understand why this change is being made…..You’re expectations don’t align with theirs.

…

Overall performance of a class, even relative to others, is not determined by changing a very small number of its skills…

Alright, let’s focus on some disagreements. If I don’t understand why this change is being made, explain to me why this change is being made, and what Anet’s expectations are relative to mine. And please elaborate the “even” there. What is the overall performance of a class without relativity to others, in a game where multiple classes exist to choose from?

Change is being made because Anet thinks DH is too bursty and disruptive; so sounds to me like the reason is alignment to class concept. Unfortunately, when people see changes they think are bad, they immediately assume they are based on balances relative to other professions. This is a kittenumption.

Overall performance can be assessed simply by past experience ingame within the class itself, under the reasonable assumption that the class is based around a concept. No reference to other classes is required in that kind of assessment. That makes a massive amount of sense if you don’t assume that balance is always relative to other classes.

^Balancing around a concept is the bane that has limited Guardians since release because it is entirely subjective. Things aren’t designed to work in any practical way they are design to appease a concept that was create years ago and follow to this day in an uninspired dogmatic way.

I agree with that for sure, though subjective here is irrelevant since it’s Anet’s subjectivity and they hold the levers. I for one would love to see some things happen on Guardian, but I know it won’t because of the class concept. That’s OK too because there are 8 other classes than cover these cool things I would like to play.

We shouldn’t be in denial that changes happens because of class concept though and not for bad reasons either; staying true to a concept preserves the feel of the class, which matter as much as or more than interclass balancing.

Obtena.7952:

Change is being made because Anet thinks DH is too bursty and disruptive; so sounds to me like the reason is alignment to class concept. Unfortunately, when people see changes they think are bad, they immediately assume they are based on balances relative to other professions. This is a kittenumption.

Overall performance can be assessed simply by past experience ingame within the class itself, under the reasonable assumption that the class is based around a concept. No reference to other classes is required in that kind of assessment. That makes a massive amount of sense if you don’t assume that balance is always relative to other classes.

Alright, then you need to understand: the class concept of the Dragonhunter is supposed to be burst and disruption so of course it’s going to have high burst and disruption relative the base class with reportedly the 2nd worst dps in the game and limited CC. Elite specs are supposed to alter the playstyle of a class enough that it warrants a different symbol (the little arrowhead instead of a healing ahnk on a shield), so it’s effectively meant to behave like a different class (more damage less support). Balancing a single class based on feel without comparison to other classes is like allocating fuel for a plane by getting a pilot who’s flown a plane, but knows nothing about the one in question, to guess how much it needs without gauges. You can’t measure the distance between two objects (guard and DH) without a third object as reference (any other class in the game). Balancing without comparison to other classes makes no sense in any context. It isn’t balance.

Obtena.7952:

I agree with that for sure, though subjective here is irrelevant since it’s Anet’s subjectivity and they hold the levers. I for one would love to see some things happen on Guardian, but I know it won’t because of the class concept. That’s OK too because there are 8 other classes than cover these cool things I would like to play.

We shouldn’t be in denial that changes happens because of class concept though and not for bad reasons either; staying true to a concept preserves the feel of the class, which matter as much as or more than interclass balancing.

True but there is a ton of things they could do to improve the guardian while keeping true to the class concept.

And even then there is wiggle room with how things can be done.

While they do not want the guardian to be too overtly offensive there are multiple traits/skills that show us they are perfectly fine with offense through or with defensive elements.

So the majority of the classes problems can be addressed, its just a question of 2 things

1: Will they agknowledge there is a problem with a vast array of skills, traits etc…
&
2: Will they devote the time, resources and personal to fix the problem.

They have done number one (though how many traits/skills they think are problematic is anybodies guess)
How much they do number 2 is yet to be seen.

Obtena.7952:

I agree with that for sure, though subjective here is irrelevant since it’s Anet’s subjectivity and they hold the levers. I for one would love to see some things happen on Guardian, but I know it won’t because of the class concept. That’s OK too because there are 8 other classes than cover these cool things I would like to play.

We shouldn’t be in denial that changes happens because of class concept though and not for bad reasons either; staying true to a concept preserves the feel of the class, which matter as much as or more than interclass balancing.

Healing ahnk on a shield, chrono/druid/herald can provide better group survivability, support, and healing. Our class concept is done better by other classes, so clearly they don’t care that much about adherence to the ideas.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

Change is being made because Anet thinks DH is too bursty and disruptive; so sounds to me like the reason is alignment to class concept. Unfortunately, when people see changes they think are bad, they immediately assume they are based on balances relative to other professions. This is a kittenumption.

Overall performance can be assessed simply by past experience ingame within the class itself, under the reasonable assumption that the class is based around a concept. No reference to other classes is required in that kind of assessment. That makes a massive amount of sense if you don’t assume that balance is always relative to other classes.

Alright, then you need to understand: the class concept of the Dragonhunter is supposed to be burst and disruption so of course it’s going to have high burst and disruption relative the base class with reportedly the 2nd worst dps in the game and limited CC. Elite specs are supposed to alter the playstyle of a class enough that it warrants a different symbol (the little arrowhead instead of a healing ahnk on a shield), so it’s effectively meant to behave like a different class (more damage less support). Balancing a single class based on feel without comparison to other classes is like allocating fuel for a plane by getting a pilot who’s flown a plane, but knows nothing about the one in question, to guess how much it needs without gauges. You can’t measure the distance between two objects (guard and DH) without a third object as reference (any other class in the game). Balancing without comparison to other classes makes no sense in any context. It isn’t balance.

No offense, but I’m going to say Anet controls the concept of the class and what it does, not players. Besides that, Anet didn’t say it shouldn’t be bursty or disruptive at all, they just said it was TOO bursty and disruptive for them.

This is all find and dandy. However, are other classes being changed accordingly and brought down to a level playing field? Because right now it isn’t.

Clearly we can agree there is a pretty wide class separation with regards to classes that have it all vs. those that don’t.

Obtena.7952:

No offense, but I’m going to say Anet controls the concept of the class and what it does, not players. Besides that, Anet didn’t say it shouldn’t be bursty or disruptive at all, they just said it was TOO bursty and disruptive for them.

You can’t just say the devs think it’s too bursty and that’s that. This is a forum, I’m here to question and criticize. What basis do they have for thinking it’s too bursty? You don’t appear to have the answer, but you keep insisting. As I already told you, anything that isn’t a complete potato is too bursty compared to base guardian alone (your proposed basis for tweaks). And compared to other classes (as you say they don’t) it certainly isn’t too bursty at all for the survivability it has (marauder scrapper says HELLO). If you’re going to say Anet just made the change because they felt like it with no rhyme or reason, just say it. It’s their prerogative.

Concept behind the Guardian: “Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own SPOT IN THE PARTY to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

All kidding aside what the hell is our class’ concept? And why does it absurdly restrict our damage, mobility, healing output, offensive boons, condition options, personal survivability, and defensive utilities?

^ im also confused, if they want to stick to the concept , why make dragonhunter as elite spec in the first placr? Just from the name we know we supposed to hunt the dragon, which is why we have burst and disruptive skill.

Really cant wait what will we actually get from the balance patch.

The design behind concepts doesn’t make sense in this game. On one hand you have a profession like Warriors whose concept is essentially to be the master of nearly everything and then you have Guardians which only really have support and defense. The limit behind the Guardian concept is terribly vague and really hinders Guardian balance while say Warriors are free reign to receive much more in comparison.

Arken.3725:

The design behind concepts doesn’t make sense in this game. On one hand you have a profession like Warriors whose concept is essentially to be the master of nearly everything and then you have Guardians which only really have support and defense. The limit behind the Guardian concept is terribly vague and really hinders Guardian balance while say Warriors are free reign to receive much more in comparison.

Problem is that now guardian is only good at giving party aegis, but with all those new unblockable attacks that thing is just obsolete which means guardian is obsolete….

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

No offense, but I’m going to say Anet controls the concept of the class and what it does, not players. Besides that, Anet didn’t say it shouldn’t be bursty or disruptive at all, they just said it was TOO bursty and disruptive for them.

You can’t just say the devs think it’s too bursty and that’s that. This is a forum, I’m here to question and criticize. What basis do they have for thinking it’s too bursty? You don’t appear to have the answer, but you keep insisting. As I already told you, anything that isn’t a complete potato is too bursty compared to base guardian alone (your proposed basis for tweaks). And compared to other classes (as you say they don’t) it certainly isn’t too bursty at all for the survivability it has (marauder scrapper says HELLO). If you’re going to say Anet just made the change because they felt like it with no rhyme or reason, just say it. It’s their prerogative.

I wouldn’t get too worked up trying to have a debate with them over this.

Their posts haven’t offered anything of substance to prove or indicate that everything is going to be fine when the changes hit, nor show why Anet’s belief in the burst beibg too kuch is warranted.

The have that rare talent of being able to talk a lot and say nothing.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

No offense, but I’m going to say Anet controls the concept of the class and what it does, not players. Besides that, Anet didn’t say it shouldn’t be bursty or disruptive at all, they just said it was TOO bursty and disruptive for them.

You can’t just say the devs think it’s too bursty and that’s that. … What basis do they have for thinking it’s too bursty?

I can actually, because they said it. It’s irrelevant if I think it is or is not too bursty; I don’t define the class concept, Anet does.

http://dulfy.net/2016/01/11/gw2-profession-balance-goals-for-winter-2016/

Arken.3725:

The design behind concepts doesn’t make sense in this game. On one hand you have a profession like Warriors whose concept is essentially to be the master of nearly everything and then you have Guardians which only really have support and defense. The limit behind the Guardian concept is terribly vague and really hinders Guardian balance while say Warriors are free reign to receive much more in comparison.

This always ticks me off when I think about it. PS might giving should of been something the Guardian should have done and not the Warrior. Makes more sense because Guardian was supposed to be the boon class (though that is now Revenant). All Anet had to do was remove the stupid ICD from that one trait…

Azoqu.8917:

Arken.3725:

The design behind concepts doesn’t make sense in this game. On one hand you have a profession like Warriors whose concept is essentially to be the master of nearly everything and then you have Guardians which only really have support and defense. The limit behind the Guardian concept is terribly vague and really hinders Guardian balance while say Warriors are free reign to receive much more in comparison.

This always ticks me off when I think about it. PS might giving should of been something the Guardian should have done and not the Warrior. Makes more sense because Guardian was supposed to be the boon class (though that is now Revenant). All Anet had to do was remove the stupid ICD from that one trait…

Getting rid of that ICD would make the guardian pretty much unkillable when combined with altruistic healing, even in just a 2 man group.

It would have been much easier and more balanced to simply make the might applied last longer. 10 seconds duration would have been fine, especially once you facor in strength or holebrak runes.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Azoqu.8917:

Arken.3725:

The design behind concepts doesn’t make sense in this game. On one hand you have a profession like Warriors whose concept is essentially to be the master of nearly everything and then you have Guardians which only really have support and defense. The limit behind the Guardian concept is terribly vague and really hinders Guardian balance while say Warriors are free reign to receive much more in comparison.

This always ticks me off when I think about it. PS might giving should of been something the Guardian should have done and not the Warrior. Makes more sense because Guardian was supposed to be the boon class (though that is now Revenant). All Anet had to do was remove the stupid ICD from that one trait…

Getting rid of that ICD would make the guardian pretty much unkillable when combined with altruistic healing, even in just a 2 man group.

It would have been much easier and more balanced to simply make the might applied last longer. 10 seconds duration would have been fine, especially once you facor in strength or holebrak runes.

What? That’s 70 health per boon, you’d need constantly crit 5 times every second to equal that of a Warriors Healing signet.

Edit: Not to mention you’d have to go into a less than desirable tree that is Honor to get it.

Obtena.7952:

I can actually, because they said it. It’s irrelevant if I think it is or is not too bursty; I don’t define the class concept, Anet does.

http://dulfy.net/2016/01/11/gw2-profession-balance-goals-for-winter-2016/

Then you are saying they just changed it because they felt like it, and you have no reasoning beyond that. You haven’t added anything to this conversation beyond “anet reserves the right to change their game how they want”, and everyone here should have already known that. Being too bursty doesn’t make the class fail to fit the concept of bursty, class concept is an umbrella. Being too good at something under the umbrella isn’t outside of concept, it’s just unbalanced. I think what you mean is Anet’s vision of the class. Just because they’re at the wheel doesn’t mean they’ll make the correct turns. There are three choices for us in the passenger seat when we think they’ll turn wrong: say nothing and wait until after a mistake is made, start saying something about what we think the right way to go is, or panic preemptively and bail out before the intersection. People on the forums (mostly) fall into the second category. It doesn’t matter if they don’t listen, we’re still gonna talk about it.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Obtena.7952:

I can actually, because they said it. It’s irrelevant if I think it is or is not too bursty; I don’t define the class concept, Anet does.

http://dulfy.net/2016/01/11/gw2-profession-balance-goals-for-winter-2016/

Then you are saying they just changed it because they felt like it, and you have no reasoning beyond that.

I’m saying they changed it to align to what they want the class to do, though you shouldn’t make it sound like the reason I’ve provided isn’t good enough to consider, since it is the one that actually matters.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for people talking about how they dislike change, etc… but when I see people QQing because they assume Anet is making changes that are ‘stupid’ when the reality is that those people just don’t understand things, that’s not an unreasonable place to step in and challenge that thinking by saying “hey, did you ever think ….”

Frankly, since we have hardly any details, it’s pretty presumptuous for anyone to really predict how the next round of balancing changes will affect the class. I get your not liking my line of thinking all that much and you wish what I was saying wasn’t true. Accusing me of not adding to the conversation; that’s weak backhanded attack considering how much time you have decide to spend trying to break me down.

My position is pretty strong in this thread. On top of recognizing there are other reasons to make changes beyond ‘class comparison balance’, there isn’t even enough details released from Anet to have a reasonable discussion about what the change even is in the first place.

Obtena.7952:

I’m saying they changed it to align to what they want the class to do, though you shouldn’t make it sound like the reason I’ve provided isn’t good enough to consider, since it is the one that actually matters.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for people talking about how they dislike change, etc… but when I see people QQing because they assume Anet is making changes that are ‘stupid’ when the reality is that those people just don’t understand things, that’s not an unreasonable place to step in and challenge that thinking by saying “hey, did you ever think ….”

Frankly, since we have hardly any details, it’s pretty presumptuous for anyone to really predict how the next round of balancing changes will affect the class. I get your not liking my line of thinking all that much and you wish what I was saying wasn’t true. Accusing me of not adding to the conversation; that’s weak backhanded attack considering how much time you have decide to spend trying to break me down.

My position is pretty strong in this thread. On top of recognizing there are other reasons to make changes beyond ‘class comparison balance’, there isn’t even enough details released from Anet to have a reasonable discussion about what the change even is in the first place.

The reason you provided doesn’t matter, because it’s something non-debatable. There is no reason to speculate on whether they can change something; the answer is trivial. Only whether they should, or will.

“…those people just don’t understand things…” This is where I have issue, you’re being pretentious. You’ve insinuated something similar in some of your other posts already. This isn’t some grandoise obscure philosophizing with no straight answer, beyond human comprehension; something only you and Anet understand, and people who disagree simply haven’t learned. It’s numbers. You haven’t provided much to think about besides balancing the class without regard to other classes, which I already told you is poppykitten, and that the devs can change anything at any time, which I already said we all (should ) know. Disliking change is QQing. What isn’t QQing is calling out a change that you think is stupid, and explaining why (as long as you aren’t solely doing so out of emotion, that is). You’ve got things twisted. It’s presumptuous to try and tell people what they can and can’t speculate, you can only tell them why the speculation is probably wrong or right. We could get 100% damage buffs on everything or we could get 50% nerfs, anything’s possible, doesn’t make it probable; they gave us this preview to see what direction they plan on going.

“…you wish what I was saying wasn’t true.” that implies I think you’re correct but don’t want to accept it. I simply don’t think you’re correct besides Anet-fiat, which again, everyone knows about. I certainly don’t consider my comment backhanded, I consider it fairly straightforward. All your talk of “class concept” and “Anet dev’s vision” is vaporous. It doesn’t contribute to predicting the state of the guardian post-patch. It doesn’t kitten the numeric or stylistic validity of the changes they hinted and revealed. It doesn’t attempt to explain why the speculated changes are occurring beyond “because they can”. You’ve been saying mostly the same things repeatedly. I’m not trying to break you down, only your argument.

Anet bout DH: “very solid impact in many areas of the game” and “they’ve been a tad too effective in the areas of burst and disruption”

Hm so by other words, very good and op, realy? The bow? no way, traps, k maybe the daze and a slight dmg adjust. Bow need changes…..I found only 2 DH meta, and only 1 with the bow (or was, less meta today), and its a PVP build, no PVE at all, and to add more, that’s not even thanks by the bow but rathter teh traps.

King Cephalopod.7942:

I certainly don’t consider my comment backhanded, I consider it fairly straightforward. All your talk of “class concept” and “Anet dev’s vision” is vaporous. It doesn’t contribute to predicting the state of the guardian post-patch.

That’s an interesting stance considering that ALL discussion about changes we don’t even have details about is even more vaporous and contributes even LESS to predicting the state of a Guardian post-patch than simply waiting to see what the result will be and keeping a level headed approach to the changes.

I’m also amused that you continue to equate the reason I suspect Anet making the changes as “because they want to”. Not sure how you get that from “because of the class concept”. That’s certainly not due to anything on my side of the discussion. Maybe you want to continue to diminish that argument because you have no way to dispute it or even believe it’s not true /shrug

Even if you exclude our little side bar here, I don’t see posts in this thread that are all that rational. These aren’t discussions and if they are, I didn’t see you contributing to them in any more of a significant way than you are accusing me of doing.

Obtena.7952:

That’s an interesting stance considering that ALL discussion about changes we don’t even have details about is even more vaporous and contributes even LESS to predicting the state of a Guardian post-patch than simply waiting to see what the result will be and keeping a level headed approach to the changes.

I’m also amused that you continue to equate the reason I suspect Anet making the changes as “because they want to”. Not sure how you get that from “because of the class concept”. That’s certainly not due to anything on my side of the discussion. Maybe you want to continue to diminish that argument because you have no way to dispute it or even believe it’s not true /shrug

Even if you exclude our little side bar here, I don’t see posts in this thread that are all that rational. These aren’t discussions and if they are, I didn’t see you contributing to them in any more of a significant way than you are accusing me of doing.

You haven’t told people to sit tight and wait it out. You’ve told people “you just don’t understand class concept”. And as I told you repeatedly, that “class concept” shtick is humbug. Quite a few of these posts are rational, even if misdirected.

Right, just like I made up the whole thing about Anet saying too bursty and disruptive too? Humbug or not, balancing to class concept is just as, if not more valid reason to balance than between-class equalization is. Repeat it all you like, it’s widespread and relevant in any MMO.

So am I correct in saying that if Anet think of the guardian as a support/tank role that they should balance for that instead of trying to bring it in line with other profession and actually give a reason for people to play and accept in to groups etc?

Is there a link to a list of all changes yet?

because everywhere I look I can’t find anything

Obtena.7952:

Right, just like I made up the whole thing about Anet saying too bursty and disruptive too? Humbug or not, balancing to class concept is just as, if not more valid reason to balance than between-class equalization is. Repeat it all you like, it’s widespread and relevant in any MMO.

No, it is invalid alone. Class concept only exists because of the between-class equalization. A class concept outlines what makes a class unique, and in a game made of numbers the numbers need to support that for it to work. Multiple scales tip up one way and down another for each class but the centers align, aka balance. If the numbers don’t properly support the class concept relative other class’s concepts it’s a load of hooey, and doesn’t matter. Results are what matters, to compare to books (gotta put the R in mmorpg) “show, don’t tell”. I.e.:

A class description says “really good at keeping allies alive”. Ingame the class is terrible at keeping others alive, both functionally and compared to other classes, but has really good DPS. The class concept is at odds with the mechanical performance, so the practical class concept is “really good DPS”. The flavor text doesn’t matter, performance takes priority, the class concept is wrong.

If someone tells an audience that I am physically strong, and I fail to lift a 5-kilo rock, I am not strong. You might say that I am strong in the eyes of that person, but that does not make me strong, nor does it matter. If anyone in that audience wanted help moving furniture, I would not get a call despite strength being my concept. The observers can see what I cannot do compared to the concept that person set up for me. Especially when the guy next to me picks up a 20-kilo rock in one hand, when the concept he was introduced for was painting skill. And then he makes a beautiful oil landscape. Performance takes priority, the concept assigned to me is wrong.