Guild Wars 2

Arrk.4102:

Healing role is really nonexistent in this game, and the way it works is if you use the tome to heal you are useless at all times in any sort of team setting. If you want to be a dedicated healer, this is the wrong game for you.

Keeping your team alive and able to fight without breaking combat “dps up time” is useless?

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

Arrk.4102:

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

it works for pvp too, and no. You get a big burst in healing for 30 seconds, you can heal well for the other times. And the meta is only this way because of exploits.

KSIBBQ.8123:

Arrk.4102:

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

it works for pvp too, and no. You get a big burst in healing for 30 seconds, you can heal well for the other times. And the meta is only this way because of exploits.

Dodge, block, and blind = exploit you heard it here folk gw2’s active combat system is all just a big exploit.

Vizardlorde.8243:

KSIBBQ.8123:

Arrk.4102:

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

it works for pvp too, and no. You get a big burst in healing for 30 seconds, you can heal well for the other times. And the meta is only this way because of exploits.

Dodge, block, and blind = exploit you heard it here folk gw2’s active combat system is all just a big exploit.

The zerker meta is based on exploits …. not those three mechs… when did I say that

KSIBBQ.8123:

Vizardlorde.8243:

KSIBBQ.8123:

Arrk.4102:

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

it works for pvp too, and no. You get a big burst in healing for 30 seconds, you can heal well for the other times. And the meta is only this way because of exploits.

Dodge, block, and blind = exploit you heard it here folk gw2’s active combat system is all just a big exploit.

The zerker meta is based on exploits …. not those three mechs… when did I say that

Then what exactly is the exploit that makes zerker viable that no other stat combo can make use of?

JonPeters.5630:

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

I like the idea, could see it as a kind of elementalist conjure

Arrk.4102:

Healing role is really nonexistent in this game, and the way it works is if you use the tome to heal you are useless at all times in any sort of team setting. If you want to be a dedicated healer, this is the wrong game for you.

Healers are very much a thing in this game, it’s just that in most PvE content they aren’t necessary at all and only serve to slow down the run. The exceptions are high level fractals and The Silverwastes. They’re also at least viable in PvP and WvW. I wouldn’t be surprised if certain healer builds become meta for stronghold, when it’s released. I’m sure healing guardians would be one of those if that happened, assuming Tome of Courage isn’t removed.

Arrk.4102:

DPS up time tells me you are talking about PvE. In PvE healing is useless, for the same reason Zerker is the META right now. Damage>all the rest. You would be helping your team by doing damage, and in Guardians case supporting with blinds and blocks more than you would by “healing” for 30 seconds, and then doing nothing useful for the next 3 minutes.

There’s no reason healing guardians can’t use blinds/blocks/etc after Tome of Courage. It’s just that in addition to the various protective abilities they have, they also have some of the best allied healing in the game. The trade-off here is damage (to a lesser extent if the player uses zealot’s gear, not available in PvP though); the trade-off isn’t losing protective support for gaining healing support.

The damage is still the best support, after the boons and conditions. And niche builds like healing Guardians or Elementalists really have no place in this current meta. No trinity.. If they bring a separate spec for tomes that’s fine, but please do not ruin our chance to finally have decent elite skills.

Damage is not support. I couldn’t care less about how overpowered the replacement elites could be if they’re as bland and boring as the ones proposed here. If you want to use a bland and boring elite that is also proven to be strong, you can continue to stick to Renewed Focus. I’ll stick to something that’s a tide-changer in the right hands rather than a simplistic and slightly overpowered utility skill in the elite slot.

The fact is, it is a “tide-changer” only in PvE where Damage is still preferred over anything else or in two cases in pvp:
1. The opponent is brain-dead in which case you would not need the “tide-changer” anyways.
2. Your team is absolutely crushing, again, in which case you would not need the “tide-changer”.
Any smart team would instantly lock you down if you got the tome out.
Now, the Elite Signet, if it went through, would still offer quite a bit of healing, so I really see no need of keeping the Tomes and being limited to one semi-decent Elite skill.

Arrk.4102:

The fact is, it is a “tide-changer” only in PvE where Damage is still preferred over anything else or in two cases in pvp:
1. The opponent is brain-dead in which case you would not need the “tide-changer” anyways.
2. Your team is absolutely crushing, again, in which case you would not need the “tide-changer”.
Any smart team would instantly lock you down if you got the tome out.
Now, the Elite Signet, if it went through, would still offer quite a bit of healing, so I really see no need of keeping the Tomes and being limited to one semi-decent Elite skill.

It’s situational in PvE because damage is preferred there, but I’m afraid PvP isn’t quite as brainless as PvE. In PvP, pulling off good usage of ToC involves the right build, good foresight, and/or good positioning. In relatively fair odds, I’d love to see “any smart team” locking down a skillful tome user who has a brain. Placing Hallowed Ground, Sanctuary, or other such protective abilities in a big team fight will almost always guarantee pulling off whatever tome ability is required unless it’s like a 1v5, especially with Elite Focus which would now be baseline. Alternatively you could just position appropriately so that you won’t get interrupted, assuming the enemy can even bypass its (soon-to-be baseline) innate stability as well as the daze from Pacifism. If Light of Deliverance gets interrupted, there’s also always the four other powerful abilities that ToC offers. I’d argue that Heal Area has the potential to be much stronger than LoD.
Again, it’s not an easy panic button like Renewed Focus, but when it’s skillfully used, it becomes a tide-changer (as an elite should be).

Signet of Courage loses every single ToC spell besides LoD, and the other spells in ToC are actually quite powerful, especially Heal Area.
In my eyes, that signet is just a watered down version of ToC made for children. I don’t have any interest in a signet build either, and I don’t think most guardians do. So what is the purpose of dumbing down the ultimate support ability into a signet (which is an unsupportive set of skills)?

If any tomes at all should be replaced, it should just be Tome of Wrath. Even though ToW would synergize extremely well with longbow guardians and is indirectly buffed due to the quickness and burning changes, so I don’t even think that should be removed unless its replacement is a really well-designed skill.

Considering the fact that barely anyone use tomes AND the fact that they will get their own spec with proper support for them, this is a good option. People wanting to use something that is not RF will get an ok signet, it will also passively add healing if you still cling to that and it will also add a really useful looking shout. And people who want to use tomes will get a nice and tome-friendly spec. Win-win.

While I’m extremely excited for the might-be-happening tome elite spec, I don’t relish the idea that the earliest it would turn up is in like 2 years. If it even turns up at all that is. ANet never said it would be the next spec after DH, or the spec after that. So if people have faith that they’ll actually release this spec, and at a reasonable time, then there should be no problem with changing the current tome elites only when that specialization arrives. Personally I don’t even have enough faith in them to expect this hypothetical tome elite spec to show up at all, but yes, I agree that it’d be an “everybody wins” scenario, and I’d love for it to happen.

+1 to Tome Kits spec in the future (Most amazing spec ever)! I’ll be waiting for this.

For now they can change the actual Tomes.

PLEASE DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

The tomes really inspire the idea of a loremaster for me. You could have utility skills called Tales or something that boost the Tomes. The shouts really indicate the profession’s heritage of monk and paragon, so why not build upon that with Chants and Songs?

I really like the idea of making tomes more powerful and useful, can you elaborate on your idea at all?

This thread and the suggestions have a problem we’ve seen alot in all game design in recent years: Oppinions are collected, on some quantative decision-basis to be evaluated, and decisions are based on greater-good- and greater-application majority concerns without attention to the higher-order minority use that tend to drive content.

That trend is starting to blow over if you look at other games, so I hope that Anet do not go there with GW2 now.

For example, guilds are made more and more peripheral in an area of the game like WvW, as most players do not interact through their guilds there and rely on public pickup commanders. On the other hand, the guild is a “higher-order minority” as those commanders, in contrast to the players that follow them, tend to gain their experience as commanders through gameplay in a tight-knit group of friends in a guild or akin to a guild – in that more organized content – so sidelining the idea of guilds from the overall idea of content in that game-mode tend to lead to less commanders. Less commanders and the content they provide, because the process that encourages new commanders gets stifled (ie., the player as an enabler and in turn the game’s story-telling aspect). No stories are told and all players are affected by that in some way.

The use of tomes, or not, is similar in a way. They are (or have been-) used by those interested in- and capable of driving change. Most players do not use them and they are certainly not used in all areas of the game where the ease and applicable nature of shout- or signet mechanics is preferred. That, however, does not mean that tomes are not used, could potentially be used or does not fill some form of function. They do. They fill a function among groups that look at the game rather than trends and that is what creates new trends. Tomes were very popular early on the game even though they may not be very popular now. Very few concrete things have changed, they just don’t fit into the current dominant abstract ideas of how the game is best played. Taking tomes away may please players short-term and/or in popular game modes, but also leave the game with less potential and dynamics.

If the discussion is about the tome mechanics: Look at the actual tome mechanics to see that they are not different from other “form” mechanics such as Tornadoes, Liches or Rampages. They are forms. We see no calls for the removal of other forms. Rightly so, as the mechanic is not faulty, only, possibly, the set of abilities or certain abilities tied to the skills in question.

Look at the actual design and its’ potential instead of just looking at trends and common use. Long-term the game will be hurt if changes are only driven by unreflected oppinion to maxmize utility and/or please players.

Taking tomes away would be a mistake for those reasons.

A) Tomes will be brought back with a Tome – centric spec.
B) Lich is the most used of the ones you listed. Rampager and Tornado are so niche that honestly if they were redone in the same way, an insignificant amount of people would complain.

Arrk.4102:

A) Tomes will be brought back with a Tome – centric spec.

Why do you think they’d necessarily be back? Because ANet said they “hope” to bring back tomes later? Excuse me if I don’t take that seriously, but unless ANet gives a definite answer instead of that sketchy “maybe” statement, I don’t want to see anything removed.

If it came down to losing the ability to use tomes for a whole year in return for the tome elite spec, then maybe I could live with that. If it was something like two+ years, then I wouldn’t bother holding out for the tome elite spec. I’m assuming it’s going to be the latter, if ever.

You guys, we will be getting good elites that will finally not be the ones that 3 people in the entire game use or the terrible version of Mesmers Distortion, and you are trying to stop it? Really?

Subversion.2580:

This thread and it’s tentative suggestion bears the same problem as many other direction-decisions in game design in recent years: Oppinions are collected as a quantiative decision-basis and decisions are based on greater-good- and greater-application majority concerns without attention to the higher-order minority use that tend to drive content.

For example, the concept of guilds is made more and more peripheral in an area like WvW as most players do not interact through their guilds there and rely on public pickup commanders. Those commanders on the other hand tend to gain their experience as commanders through gameplay in a tight-knit group of friends akin to a guild – so sidelining the guild from the content ultimately means less content is created as the necessary drive and experience to command (ie., the player as an enabler and in turn the game’s story-telling aspect) is erroded.

The concept of tomes rests on a similar basis. Most players do not use them and they are certainly not used in all areas of the game where the ease and applicable nature of shout- or signet mechanics is preferred. That, however, does not mean that tomes are not used, could potentially be used or does not fill some form of function. They do. They fill a function among groups such as tightly-knit guild-groups that utilize the intricacies of the game’s mechanics. Taking them away may please players short-term and/or in popular game modes, but also leave the game with less potential, redundance and dynamics.

Tomes, after all, are not different from other “form” mechanics such as Tornadoes, Liches or Rampagers. We see no calls for their removal. Rightly so, as the mechanic is not faulty, only, possibly, the set of abilities or certain abilities tied to the skills in question.

The recent stability change is one example when changes were driven by unreflected oppinion that is starting to pan out very poorly for the dynamics of content in the areas of the game where it was important. Yes, we would eg., commonly see melee-trains in WvW as the concept of ripping only saw coordinated and systematic use in higher-order content, but there was no actual balance issue if you looked at the mechanics. Instead, with the changes, we have a malbalance between availability of control and its’ counters, which comes with cascading effects as larger groups more easily dominate smaller groups and we accentuate the issues of server stacking or single-train stacking to win, in general.

Taking tomes away would be a mistake for similar reasons.

I would like to see Tomes remain, and simply gain lower ranking skills. The main reason most players don’t use them is the very long cooldown. As they are, the Tomes are less attractive for it, despite being extremely powerful while in use. I’ve never particularly liked Renewed Focus and only ever used it rarely on secondary guardians. Losing the elites that I find useful, with a nebulous “We hope to bring them back later” strikes me as a bad trade, and I ask it not be one made.

Subtraction rarely makes the game better, and subtracting Tomes for two elites which look as unimpressive to me as Renewed Focus feels like a poor choice to make.

Call me a noob whatever, but Renewed Focus will still remain the most used elite overall even after the traits/elites changes.

The difference between our tomes and the other elites like tornado, lich and rampager is that those classes are not depended on an invuln elite that alter they’re profession mechanic as RF is to the Guardian, so ofc they’re “niche” elite is not so niche after all but instead, a powerful addition in they’re skill kitten nal where which, RF is a must for a guardian to be able to remain competent.

Guardian’s survivability and skills are balanced with the idea of renewed focus which from the start makes any other elite not viable. I love the idea of guardian having more access to quickness and I’ve been advocating it from a long time now, to balance out the slow hitting weapons like hammer and mace, or to balance out the lack of CC but tbh I don’t like how the devs want to implement them and I will vote for the Tomes to remain unchanged until the new specialization is rolled out and people create an impression first with the new specs/builds.

And please stop with the healing crap on guardian, it was never meant to be a healer. If you really want gruesome healing go specc a warrior in clerics with banner regen or shout heal and then delete your guardian. Or an ele for that matter…

Well for LB the Tomes to me would actually jive better with LB play. Drop your traps stand back pop into the Tome and you’re still ranging, especially the dps one. Also for the healing one you pretty much want to be somewhat at range, don’t remember the radius on the heal but yeah you don’t want to be in the middle of the circle.

The shout would work too it would synergize with the other shouts and the Signet also. Hey it’s a Guard, Dragon Hunter, how bout a Gonther? Haha, you can go 5 different ways with Guards and you won’t go wrong.

And please stop with the healing crap on guardian, it was never meant to be a healer. If you really want gruesome healing go specc a warrior in clerics with banner regen or shout heal and then delete your guardian. Or an ele for that matter…[/quote]

Yeah they need three LFGs, one for a Guard, one for DPS and the most important one the Healer.

I think you guys already made up your mind and my opinion does not really matter as everyone loves the idea, but still here it is: No, I do not like it. If you want, you can add these elites, but leave the elites be. I am using tome of courage quite a lot during mass PVE events to keep the NPCs alive. And sometimes I equip tome of wrath because…it is fun to burn everybody around you.

Mortifer.2946:

I am using tome of courage quite a lot during mass PVE events to keep the NPCs alive.

Using Tome of Courage (and a healing build), it’s not that hard to hold forts in the silverwastes singlehandedly just by using Light of Deliverance, followed by Heal Area spam on the warmaster (followed by a guardian’s normal healing/protective abilities).

creepmatic.9435:

And please stop with the healing crap on guardian, it was never meant to be a healer. If you really want gruesome healing go specc a warrior in clerics with banner regen or shout heal and then delete your guardian. Or an ele for that matter…

What the guardian is “meant” to be isn’t specific, nor can you make such a statement on it (unless you can read the minds of the devs), but a guardian can quite easily be a healer (regardless if it was intended or not). What people don’t understand is that -unlike many other MMOs- healers are not a necessity due to the core mechanics of GW2, but they still do exist.

Guardians can outheal three warrior shouts with literally a single ability (Healing Breeze), and they don’t need a grandmaster trait to do that, I think that should say something. Comparing a shout warrior’s allied healing to a support/healing guardian’s allied healing is a joke. An elementalist’s allied healing is okayish but only really shines in zergy situations. Shout warriors and elementalists obviously have more benefits than healing, but don’t refer to them as “gruesome healing specs”. In terms of allied protective abilities, support/healing guardians are also pretty much unmatched.

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

For WvW:

1. A water field would be more popular than PBAoE heal.
2. Cooldowns make tomes nonviable – in fact, most of the nonviable skills on Guardian are due to cooldowns (this is also true of runes, sigils and food the cooldowns are the only thing making lots of them useless).

Svarty.8019:

For WvW:

1. A water field would be more popular than PBAoE heal.
2. Cooldowns make tomes nonviable – in fact, most of the nonviable skills on Guardian are due to cooldowns (this is also true of runes, sigils and food the cooldowns are the only thing making lots of them useless).

I think the cooldown bit extends to almost every skill that isnt viable, regardless of class..

On topic: I like the proposed changes myself! personally, i dont use tomes as it is Renewed focus all the way! But i could see myself switching over to that shout for certain content.

Dante.1763:

Svarty.8019:

For WvW:

1. A water field would be more popular than PBAoE heal.
2. Cooldowns make tomes nonviable – in fact, most of the nonviable skills on Guardian are due to cooldowns (this is also true of runes, sigils and food the cooldowns are the only thing making lots of them useless).

I think the cooldown bit extends to almost every skill that isnt viable, regardless of class..

Indeed, what a sorry state of affairs!

Dante.1763:

I think the cooldown bit extends to almost every skill that isnt viable, regardless of class..

Cooldown reduction didn’t save guardian’s shield.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Dante.1763:

I think the cooldown bit extends to almost every skill that isnt viable, regardless of class..

Cooldown reduction didn’t save guardian’s shield.

Didnt reduce it far enough! Must…squeeze..more…cooldowns…

That’s a great idea. But why not add the daze on tome of courage and full heal upon activation, and have tome of wrath next attack knocks down(guardian only) and grant 3secs of quickness and 10sec of fury with a 60sec cooldown each

This idea has probably been posted before, so just consider this my vote on the idea.

I think we should keep both tomes as Spirit Weapons. Tome of Courage can use Purifing Ribbon as an auto attack and Heal Area as an activated ground targeting skill. Tome of Wrath can use Judgement as an auto attack and Zealot’s Ferver as an activated skill.

I would really hate to see these tomes go away. Keeping them as spirit weapons still fits the feel of being part of the base guardian lineup. And, they would benefit from builds that utilize spirit weapons traits. Finally, I just think seeing a floating book of awesomenesss giving the smackdown on my foes would be an awesome thing to see.

i still like the idea of the changes to a shout and a signet, the tomes felt a little too clunky to me like most “transformations” it would be sad to see them leave since they have such a rich history with the player base, and considering i ran tome of wrath for a good year before i started using renewed focus mainly since launch, i will miss it, but times change and i think RF needs to have some competition. at this point though id love to see some change to one of my main classes. that and i dont think spirit weapons are good…. even with buffs…

So difficult to give solid input on the changes because Renewed Focus is SUCH a necessity in nearly all aspects of this game that you’d need to make these changes on par(or better) with it for anyone to even consider it(especially spvp).

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

Feel my wrath.
Shout that grants Quickness, Fury and stability

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks,

Jon

Make it so. Great ideas. lots of active gameplay.

Subversion.2580:

snipsnap wall of text

So you rather submit through the hope of the devs being able to see the greater scale of this game better then the people who probably play it more often? your are against customer centricity?

Today guardians have only one elite at their disposal that acutally does something helpful. Tomes to me are really more comapreable to norn racials then to anything else. Warrior form maybe but they have two other superior elites.

imo every tome skill would need to be looked at and the CD greatly reduced. If it was a toggalbe Kit with a CD it would make much more sense. yet they do not fit in any utility catagory. Making them spirit weapons could help yet those are kind of broken too. This would require not locking you out of your utilities which goes against the concept of forms.

Tome are cool but I really would liek to see them sepearted into a future specialisation that will evolve around them. Removing them now to bring them back later is a good soultion in my opinion.

Discussing this with the playerbase does not make it a wrong move just because they are discussing it.

I wonder what the ETA is on these changes if they are going to happen. I think the tome changes would be a great improvement but I think “Feel My Wrath” should have a 45 sec cooldown, any less I think would be too spam able for both PvE and sPvP.

The duration of FmW could be one second. Is 1s effect on 30s CD too spammy for you?

Ghotistyx.6942:

The duration of FmW could be one second. Is 1s effect on 30s CD too spammy for you?

That would make FMW completely useless.

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

On consideration I think these will be a hard sell compared to the ubiquitous Renewed Focus if they don’t reset at least one virtue. It could be a specific virtue (Signet of Courage resets Virtue of Courage), it could be variable (Feel my Wrath also resets the virtue with the longest cooldown remaining) but with so much of the Guardian’s traits wound around their class mechanic, NOT having a reset of some sort is going to be a non-starter compared to Renewed Focus.

They’re aren’t really many more traits built around virtues for guardian than other classes. The skill changes offered provide definite niches for the two skills.

Signet of Courage is great for healing. Better than Renewed Focus and you can still Battle Presence with it for even more aoe healing.

"Feel My Wrath" gives back our only access to quickness and gives access to fury all while on a short cooldown. Another 30s shout is great for trooper/pure of voice synergy, and for runes with elite skull usage effects. You can use it 3 times as often as RF.

I don’t believe RF is even all that beloved for its virtue recharge, but rather the invulnerability. There are still a lot of complaints about the active and passive effects of the virtues, so I wouldn’t assume getting them back is the real prize being sought after. Traited virtues are another thing, but not everyone is doing to specialize in virtues, nor might they need the invulnerability. SoC and "FMW" provide different and realistic options.

Nike.2631:

JonPeters.5630:

Wanted to run a potential idea past you all. Comments welcome.

Tome of Courage -> Signet of Courage
Passive: PBAoE Heal every 10 seconds.
Active: Light of Deliverance

Tome of Wrath -> “Feel My Wrath”
Shout that grants Quickness and Fury

We like the idea of tomes and if we did this we would hope to bring them back in a future Elite Specialization.

Thoughts? Comments?

On consideration I think these will be a hard sell compared to the ubiquitous Renewed Focus if they don’t reset at least one virtue. It could be a specific virtue (Signet of Courage resets Virtue of Courage), it could be variable (Feel my Wrath also resets the virtue with the longest cooldown remaining) but with so much of the Guardian’s traits wound around their class mechanic, NOT having a reset of some sort is going to be a non-starter compared to Renewed Focus.

yes and no.
Basically there will always be one Elite considered best in slot depending on what you do. If you do not go into virutes for the incredible condi cleanse and stability the elite shout really is a viable option. you also do not relay on radiance or medis for fury.

As stated its a potential 2 condis (group) cleanse on a low CD. It can add fanatastic burst potential for DD and Condi builds alike as well as make some of our more clunky skills be more efficient like Empower, Banish, RoW, Smite and even signet of mercy (if it wasnt for the awful long CD and small radius).

Heck everybody complains that a complete WW is hard to land – here is your solution. Fast Execution a complete hammer chain after RoW will hurt a lot. Who needs immortality when you stand upon the corpses of your foes?

Not to forget that guards are already very good at rezzing people due to blocks and stability on demand. Paired with Protective reviver haste makes us even better at it.

and not to forget… it will probably(hopefully) party wide.

So worst case it opens up choices.

And really this is all I ask for and many others. Build Diversity. I think its natural to think that anything new added should surpass existing options but we should really kep a perspective of what is reasonable.

The problem with all this is that we are losing something unique. I said it before, but I wasn’t very specific.

Losing tomes, and it is a loss, means we give up a mechanic that is part of the profession. We won’t be getting it back. Not as a specialization – they may eventually give us a specialization that has tomes, but that’s a specialization. It ties us to a trait line we possibly don’t want, some unknown weapon, and basically is a secondary class. So we will never be a guardian with a tome again. We’ll be a whatever the specialization is called. We’ll have access to what the new limit on trait lines and how elite specializations function with core lines pretty much dictates as 2/3s a guardian, and one third something else. I welcome this for all the elite specializations that exist. It’s great. But to lose something unique, and maybe at a future date get it back by trading away another third of the character, is not a good deal.

Even if the possibility of tomes coming back was a promise, this is still a loss. More, it’s one we’re never going to make up, only pave over. That’s something right there worth regretting. My main guardian has been using Tome of Wrath the vast majority of the time since 2013, because Renewed Focus is pretty much the antithesis of how I play the character and Tome of Wrath worked great at a variety of tasks. The cooldown sucks, and the duration wasn’t anything to write home about either and it still didn’t matter because it is the best game in town. Soon the best game in town still won’t be Renewed focus, “Feel My Wrath” looks subpar and I already have more than enough healing. So the best choice for my guardian is going to be Mistfire Wolf.

If I choose to remain a vanilla guardian, that never gets to change. This is why I do not laud this decision, and if it is still under consideration again ask that we not be subjected to this.

I like how Jon was pretentious enough to state that this was just a “potential idea”. I knew this change was going through the moment one of the guardian’s traits was renamed to “Smiter’s Boon”.

It’s okay though, since the majority can be pleased a little bit at the expense of the minority. Kind of, since the meta is just going to be RF anyway.