Guild Wars 2

Don’t get me wrong, the skills themselves have great effects.

But they barely feel like actual counters, in fact I feel most vulnerable when using either Illusionary Riposte or Illusionary Counter than most of my other weapon skills. The problem is that even though the counters block one attack, the user is actually completely vulnerable until the animation finishes. If you dodge before the animation finishes, then you won’t get the damage+clone from you’re attack.

“So what? Its just like on-demand Aegis then.”
It’s not, actually. While its true that both block one attack, the entire point of Riposte/Counter is to punish the opponent for striking you and retaliate with damage and a clone. The way it is now, more often than not you’re actually putting yourself at risk for more damage/setups/interrupts by waiting the extra second it takes for the animation to finish.. which a shrewd opponent could dodge anyway.

Solutions?
I think the best thing to do would be to either A)Speed up the animations of both attacks, leaving little window for vulnerability on the user. Make the counters invulnerable/blurred’d until the attack finishes.

Whatever you do please fix this, as of now our counters are too .. uh.. counterable.

I think making it an instant cast aura that lasts x amount of seconds would be better, we could then continue to do things and this would remove the stupid issue if you dodge after you have been hit and the kitten Torment nor the clone happen -.-

I don’t really like that. A block is a block. Rather, I feel that there needs to be more focus on animation-based counter effects as a whole, instead of simple Aegis/Protection spamming.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

problem is that even though the counters block one attack, the user is actually completely vulnerable until the animation finishes. If you dodge before the animation finishes, then you won’t get the damage+clone from you’re attack.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I think making it an instant cast aura that lasts x amount of seconds would be better, we could then continue to do things and this would remove the stupid issue if you dodge after you have been hit and the kitten Torment nor the clone happen -.-

I totally agree. Actually, both blocking need rework. The animation is too slow. Scepter block is worse, because all animations on the scepter is slow. It means you need to stop what you do, block, then restart the slow animations, again.

I think the block should block all attacks for the full duration. This would make scepter block much better vs 1vX. Also, add Torment to all Mesmer blocks lol. OP? Probably.

Xavi.6591:

I think the block should block all attacks for the full duration. This would make scepter block much better vs 1vX. Also, add Torment to all Mesmer blocks lol. OP? Probably.

It would make the skill ALOT better, most of the time people can continue to attack knowing that they will do plenty of damage thanks to the fact we have to stand still for 2 seconds, thats pretty much a free immobilize.

If it gave say 3 stacks for 5 seconds EVERY time someone attacks it it would mean that people see it and actually STOP attacking and make it so thakittens to EVERYONE rather then just 1 person.

Xavi.6591:

I think the block should block all attacks for the full duration. This would make scepter block much better vs 1vX. Also, add Torment to all Mesmer blocks lol. OP? Probably.

Absolutely OP.

I also agree that block skills need some changes. The second part of the chain should also be automatic if no Attacks are blocked (and maybe not a linear effect).

They (smartly) reduced the damage for Scepter’s counter in order to make room for torment, I wouldn’t want to see this on the sword version.

I wouldn’t agree with a longer block duration, invulnerability during the channel, and torment on each hit. Imagine two or three condition Mesmer running into the middle of a battle with this? Five stacks of torment already hits really hard.

Plus its supposed to be a counter, not a shield/barrier. It rewards skillful timing and punishes mindless spamming.. or atleast it should. Currently.. no one cares if you’re countering with the sword or not because they can do more damage to you while you’re stuck in animation than your counter attack would even do to them. I really think the animations should have invulnerable/blur frames until the damage is done. I usually blow Distortion(multiple enemies) or Distraction(one opponent) right after the block connects to give me the protection I need to pull off the counter, but I don’t think that should even be necessary.

.. Speaking of animations:

Dear A-Net,
Would you kindly smack the face of whoever thought the animation for the sword counter attack was a cool/good idea. If I’m dual-wielding swords and countering, the last thing I wanna do is raise my arm like the statue of liberty. Most players don’t even know what the hell that is (I mean people USING the skill. When I was new, I had no idea what Illusionary counter was doing when it connected and could barely tell if I connected or not)

I don’t get it. The counters hit instantly after the block, and the one for sword hits as hard as the swordsman(crits 4k+ on a zerk build). Also, you don’t have to stand still for the 2s. Where do people get this info from?

I don’t use it because its only a single target spike. If I wanted to make a dueling build though, I’d probably start with OH sword, but maybe not the scepter after half of it changed to condition. Prior to torment though the double block did very, very hard spikes. Plus swordsman.

Except it DOESNT reward timing – when you have to stand still for the WHOLE duration to actually get Torment to proc onto the target you are Fudged if you dodge before its over, you will have taken damage, wasted a cool down and a dodge.

At the very least it needs to be made a Aura, last same amount of time and okay proc just on one person for the full 5stacks but it HAS to be changed to an Aura. Currently its a VERY high risk and the reward isnt guaranteed thanks to the fact if you dodge before its finished you dont get the Torment proc.

Baa.4582:

I don’t get it. The counters hit instantly after the block, and the one for sword hits as hard as the swordsman(crits 4k+ on a zerk build). Also, you don’t have to stand still for the 2s. Where do people get this info from?

Because those people (and me) are talking about the Scepter Block – which you DO have to stand still for the full duration otherwise Torment doesnt proc. I have tested it plenty of times you HAVE to stand still for the full duration (2seconds) for the proc.

I just tried it on the spvp npcs. Torment procs when i block while moving and facing away. Are you within 900 range when blocking?

The form of the scepter and sword blocks is perfectly fine. The pause between block and response basically allows for counterplay. It allows good players to be able to trigger the block and then dodge the reaction if the mesmer just sits there with the block. On the other hand, the mesmer is also able to rapidly put up the block, reducing the ability of an enemy to react to the block reaction.

The time between block and response is about .5 seconds. This is really an inconsequential amount of time. Putting a blur or invuln effect in here is unnecessary. If someone actually manages to interrupt you in that time, that is extraordinary counterplay and should be rewarded.

Making the skill into an aura would follow the same troublesome trend of rewarding bad players and punishing good players. The current implementation punishes you for holding it out longer. Good players will activate the block just as necessary, and not walk around holding it out. Bad players will walk around holding it out. Making it into an aura essentially encourages a poor playstyle with no consequences.

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

I have tested in duels in WvW as well as in PvE. If you dodge AFTER you have been “hit” but before the actual duration runs out they don’t get the Torment proc. Seems like an issue to me, it should be INSTANT not wait until the duration of the block has ended…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

I have tested in duels in WvW as well as in PvE. If you dodge AFTER you have been “hit” but before the actual duration runs out they don’t get the Torment proc. Seems like an issue to me, it should be INSTANT not wait until the duration of the block has ended…

The way it works is you have a 2 second channel. If you are hit during that channel, that attack is immediately blocked, and in .5 seconds your target will get hit with the counterattack. If you dodge in that .5 second window, the counterattack will not occur. It does not matter if you are hit at the start of the channel or the end, the .5 second timer is the same no matter what.

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

I have tested in duels in WvW as well as in PvE. If you dodge AFTER you have been “hit” but before the actual duration runs out they don’t get the Torment proc. Seems like an issue to me, it should be INSTANT not wait until the duration of the block has ended…

The way it works is you have a 2 second channel. If you are hit during that channel, that attack is immediately blocked, and in .5 seconds your target will get hit with the counterattack. If you dodge in that .5 second window, the counterattack will not occur.

Thats the problem. It SHOULDN’T be like that, as if the duration isn’t short enough, It should INSTANTLY afflict them.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

I have tested in duels in WvW as well as in PvE. If you dodge AFTER you have been “hit” but before the actual duration runs out they don’t get the Torment proc. Seems like an issue to me, it should be INSTANT not wait until the duration of the block has ended…

The way it works is you have a 2 second channel. If you are hit during that channel, that attack is immediately blocked, and in .5 seconds your target will get hit with the counterattack. If you dodge in that .5 second window, the counterattack will not occur.

Thats the problem. It SHOULDN’T be like that, as if the duration isn’t short enough, It should INSTANTLY afflict them.

No it shouldn’t instantly affect them. In games, we like to have something called counterplay. If someone can dodge or interrupt in that .5s window, they are displaying extraordinary counterplay. Removing that possibility simply makes it easier for bad players to do well.

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

I have tested in duels in WvW as well as in PvE. If you dodge AFTER you have been “hit” but before the actual duration runs out they don’t get the Torment proc. Seems like an issue to me, it should be INSTANT not wait until the duration of the block has ended…

The way it works is you have a 2 second channel. If you are hit during that channel, that attack is immediately blocked, and in .5 seconds your target will get hit with the counterattack. If you dodge in that .5 second window, the counterattack will not occur.

Thats the problem. It SHOULDN’T be like that, as if the duration isn’t short enough, It should INSTANTLY afflict them.

No it shouldn’t instantly affect them. In games, we like to have something called counterplay. If someone can dodge or interrupt in that .5s window, they are displaying extraordinary counterplay. Removing that possibility simply makes it easier for bad players to do well.

I tend to agree with this, but it brings up a whole other discussion of balance. I mean, there are plenty of skills that have no chance of counterplay from an opponent. e.g., mantras – take mantra of pain. Sure, the opponent can clearly see you charge it, but will have no control or be able to tell when you actually use the instant cast. Is it the fact that all classes have access to certain “instant cast” skills and that’s declared balanced?

skcamow.3527:

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: You are wrong. Standing still for the duration of the block is absolutely unnecessary, and I have no idea how you managed to ‘test’ that as true.

I have tested in duels in WvW as well as in PvE. If you dodge AFTER you have been “hit” but before the actual duration runs out they don’t get the Torment proc. Seems like an issue to me, it should be INSTANT not wait until the duration of the block has ended…

The way it works is you have a 2 second channel. If you are hit during that channel, that attack is immediately blocked, and in .5 seconds your target will get hit with the counterattack. If you dodge in that .5 second window, the counterattack will not occur.

Thats the problem. It SHOULDN’T be like that, as if the duration isn’t short enough, It should INSTANTLY afflict them.

No it shouldn’t instantly affect them. In games, we like to have something called counterplay. If someone can dodge or interrupt in that .5s window, they are displaying extraordinary counterplay. Removing that possibility simply makes it easier for bad players to do well.

I tend to agree with this, but it brings up a whole other discussion of balance. I mean, there are plenty of skills that have no chance of counterplay from an opponent. e.g., mantras – take mantra of pain. Sure, the opponent can clearly see you charge it, but will have no control or be able to tell when you actually use the instant cast. Is it the fact that all classes have access to certain “instant cast” skills and that’s declared balanced?

In the case of mantras, the counterplay is interrupting the charge, along with recognizing what mantras they have charged, baiting them out, and then preventing them from recharging them. In the case of other instant cast skills, not all instant cast skills need counterplay. Stunbreakers for example, or skills that provide boons. However, with something like these blocks, where it not only provides you with a block, but also an extremely powerful counterattack (in WvW condie build, the scepter block does 13k torment damage) some form of skillfull counterplay must be possible.

Would be nice if they added some kind of short knock back so a counter feels like one

Nuka Cola.8520:

Would be nice if they added some kind of short knock back so a counter feels like one

Warriors counter with knockbacks/dazes/stuns, we counter with magic.

Pyro is absolutely right there needs to be counterplay and there is and its fine.
tho i`ll say that vs good players they counter it 95% of the time if you 1v1 same for me when i fight a mesmer and recognize a scepter all i need to see is a BLOCK flash and dodge not that hard i think the “counterplay” need to scale up a bit more but it needs to be there.
i dislike that our torment is on a defensive in the first place but its a different story.
my problem with illusionary counter is that anything can trigger it yet if your target isn`t the one to trigger it ,counterspell just doesn’t happen, with all the ai in this game and all the team fights and aoe spam to make a skill to work like this its a bad design.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Illusionary-Counter-dev-s-pl-just-one-thing/first#post2336568

Pyroatheist.9031:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Would be nice if they added some kind of short knock back so a counter feels like one

Warriors counter with knockbacks/dazes/stuns, we counter with magic.

could be a force field, i mean its a video game lol could be anything

I think Pyro shows a complete understanding of how the skill works.

@Pyro: Just a couple of things I haven’t been able to confirm.
- Is the clone generated with the block being triggered or with the counter effects (0.5s after the block)?
- Is the counter effects (dmg + torment) required LOS to apply on the target?
Thanks

keenlam.4753:

I think Pyro shows a complete understanding of how the skill works.

@Pyro: Just a couple of things I haven’t been able to confirm.
- Is the clone generated with the block being triggered or with the counter effects (0.5s after the block)?
- Is the counter effects (dmg + torment) required LOS to apply on the target?
Thanks

No idea, I’ll test it out.

@Pyro, just something to throw out there, if you guys haven’t already broached the subjects of skill balance (outside of patch changes) and counterplay in the mesmer podcast, this would be a great topic. I would be very interested in hearing in depth discussion on it.

My problem with it, moreso for the sword block, is that it feels balanced more for 1v1 situations, which is relatively rare (PvE, WvW, ect included). Offhand sword and Scepter have the least AoE utility of all our weapons, adding a blur, 1s stability, or 1s protection on the attack animation would improve its usefulness without removing counterplay.

It’s still bateable, and pretty much because of this:

cottage.3274:

… tho i`ll say that vs good players they counter it 95% of the time if you 1v1 same for me when i fight a mesmer and recognize a scepter all i need to see is a BLOCK flash and dodge …

The scepter is a bit more discrete, and I’m fairly certain its just a bit faster, but the way the attack works now, if the opponent recognizes the block and decide to avoid the counter, their buddies have free shots on the open Mesmer.

Just some tips I want to share when I use iCounter:
- I never let the channel get past the first second (in other words, past midpoint of channel bar), if it does, i hit Counterspell and consider the block is wasted. This is because it means you hold your block too early and the enemy just dodges the counter even if they trigger the block.
- Consider using the block when you’re in the different weapon set. If you can see the attack coming, hit ~ and 2. With practice, you learn the timing and it works wonder for me, odds are the enemy don’t even know that you just block the attack because you weren’t using a scepter the moment before.

But Chaos is right, we do have 0.5s of extreme vulnerability especially in group fights and against multi-hit attacks. 0.5s or 1s of evasion after the block would be great.

What about this:

As soon as you block, a clone is created and your own animation ends, the clone does a single high damage attack that has the damage, cast time and range of the previous mesmer block.

Not only is the user not vulnerable, but it also leaves room for a really cool animation to replace our “raise the sword or smash the air with a stick” animation. It will have the exact same duration and delay before the damage happens, so it seems balanced to me!