Guild Wars 2

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

For the love of god, man, say something productive would you!

Like the entire post about alcrity and bouncing that people are now agreeing with but you threw a kitten fit at? Whats the point?

You’re not making any sense man! Make some sense!

Levetty.1279:

I have the feeling people are greatly overestimting the Shield Phantasm and Alacrity in general in the various modes, unless soemthing gets buffed before release. If we go heavy into shattering (which Anet thinks is the only thing we should do) we will probably get a decent uptime on it for ourselves but they have already said they are going to negate this by giving a lot of Chronomancer skills long cds, we still have our base skills of course but even a lot of them are on long cds.

In terms of group support, which is what everybody is excited about and thinks will get us guaranteed slots everywhere, it looks rather lackluster. Well of Recall is a 45sec CD for 3 secs of alacrity and uses the worst combo field in the game which will get in the way of fire fields in pve. This will still be our best method of sharing it though.

The Shield Phantasms are going to have various problems in different parts of the game.

WvW Zergs – Useless like most phantasms.

PvE – Due to the blocking mechanic, will take longer to set up then normal phantasms. Hard to keep up due to abundance of aoes. As a support phantasm is unlikely to have particulary good damage so cuts into our dps. can’t control who it bounces and gives alacrity too, not sure on the number of bounces here though.

WvW group roaming – similar problems to PvE but on top of that the bouncing mechanic gets worse the more people you add with the projectile often ending up doing nothing as people move all over the place and it bounces off to nowhere.

Levetty.1279:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

For the love of god, man, say something productive would you!

Like the entire post about alcrity and bouncing that people are now agreeing with but you threw a kitten fit at? Whats the point?

You’re not making any sense man! Make some sense!

Levetty.1279:

I have the feeling people are greatly overestimting the Shield Phantasm and Alacrity in general in the various modes, unless soemthing gets buffed before release. If we go heavy into shattering (which Anet thinks is the only thing we should do) we will probably get a decent uptime on it for ourselves but they have already said they are going to negate this by giving a lot of Chronomancer skills long cds, we still have our base skills of course but even a lot of them are on long cds.

In terms of group support, which is what everybody is excited about and thinks will get us guaranteed slots everywhere, it looks rather lackluster. Well of Recall is a 45sec CD for 3 secs of alacrity and uses the worst combo field in the game which will get in the way of fire fields in pve. This will still be our best method of sharing it though.

The Shield Phantasms are going to have various problems in different parts of the game.

WvW Zergs – Useless like most phantasms.

PvE – Due to the blocking mechanic, will take longer to set up then normal phantasms. Hard to keep up due to abundance of aoes. As a support phantasm is unlikely to have particulary good damage so cuts into our dps. can’t control who it bounces and gives alacrity too, not sure on the number of bounces here though.

WvW group roaming – similar problems to PvE but on top of that the bouncing mechanic gets worse the more people you add with the projectile often ending up doing nothing as people move all over the place and it bounces off to nowhere.

Wait wait wait, so basically you said a bunch of stuff people had already said (for years) and expect it to be taken as new and edgy?

You’re right, I like Chaos’ take better.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

For the love of god, man, say something productive would you!

Like the entire post about alcrity and bouncing that people are now agreeing with but you threw a kitten fit at? Whats the point?

You’re not making any sense man! Make some sense!

Levetty.1279:

I have the feeling people are greatly overestimting the Shield Phantasm and Alacrity in general in the various modes, unless soemthing gets buffed before release. If we go heavy into shattering (which Anet thinks is the only thing we should do) we will probably get a decent uptime on it for ourselves but they have already said they are going to negate this by giving a lot of Chronomancer skills long cds, we still have our base skills of course but even a lot of them are on long cds.

In terms of group support, which is what everybody is excited about and thinks will get us guaranteed slots everywhere, it looks rather lackluster. Well of Recall is a 45sec CD for 3 secs of alacrity and uses the worst combo field in the game which will get in the way of fire fields in pve. This will still be our best method of sharing it though.

The Shield Phantasms are going to have various problems in different parts of the game.

WvW Zergs – Useless like most phantasms.

PvE – Due to the blocking mechanic, will take longer to set up then normal phantasms. Hard to keep up due to abundance of aoes. As a support phantasm is unlikely to have particulary good damage so cuts into our dps. can’t control who it bounces and gives alacrity too, not sure on the number of bounces here though.

WvW group roaming – similar problems to PvE but on top of that the bouncing mechanic gets worse the more people you add with the projectile often ending up doing nothing as people move all over the place and it bounces off to nowhere.

Wait wait wait, so basically you said a bunch of stuff people had already said (for years) and expect it to be taken as new and edgy?

You’re right, I like Chaos’ take better.

Link to posts where people talked about alacrity years ago?
Link to posts where I said I was being edgy?
Link to posts where you aren’t being a edgy 12 year old?

Knock it off, you two.

Maybe the bounce limit should be for allies AND enemies? “can bounce to 5 allies and 3 enemies” … but seriously by then just make it aoe and let it be …

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

That is a totally unfair overexaggeration. I threw no fits. I threw nothing, actually. I only responded with ideas I had. Besides, lookit: from the other post “clockdown”

• Wells are interesting, but only Well of Calamity ( 3k Damage + pulsing cripple/weakness/damage) was the most consistently useful/reliable. The high damage is nice, but pulsing weakness is glorious along with Power Block. Second was Well of Action ( 3s Quickness + pulsing Slow/damage ) which was reliable for making it hard to stomp/rezz due to slow and damage. The other wells don’t seem to have much place in PvP, Alacrity well sucks (/shakefist @ levetty for being right) and Precognition requires extreme co-ordination

See. I give props. =P Ross is just doing some overprotective-big-brother trolling.

@Ross there’s a difference between magic bullet and thief bounces: they only harm the target. You don’t have to worry about it bouncing back to you for a benefit, so even if it misses or is blocked its not a big deal.

Needing something to bounce back to you for a condi cleanse is a bigger problem. Increasing the number of bounces could help, but any enemy that dodges/blocks/reflects the bounce in-transit will still screw you.

Bumping this since Robert is paying attention to the forum at the moment (between sprints?), and it’s tangentially related to the Shield PvE thread that’s also running.

Here’s another, simpler suggestion for Phantasms that bounce, based on a suggestion from said Shield thread. Make the attacks bounce to enemies only and move the ally effects to an AoE effect centered on the Phantasm itself. It’s both more effective and more readable — “stand next to Phantasm for a buff” makes way more sense to allies than “stand next to Phantasm’s target for a buff”.

The best part of this suggestion is that it can be easily applied to all Phantasms that have bounce attacks without re-engineering their skill effects.

Yes please. All of this.

Maybe for mage just remove the fury and give it a fire ball that puts 3 stacks of burning with weakness per cast for 3 seconds and keep it single target.

I like bouncing attacks. I don’t think the bouncing is the problem, I think the problem is several of the bounces are simply lackluster at best.

I will be honest with you, I think the shield phantasm is just fine, but I do agree that the torch phantasm and disenchanter are both extremely weak.

Morfedel.4165:

I like bouncing attacks. I don’t think the bouncing is the problem, I think the problem is several of the bounces are simply lackluster at best.

I will be honest with you, I think the shield phantasm is just fine, but I do agree that the torch phantasm and disenchanter are both extremely weak.

The problem with bounces is that all of the bouncing attacks are two-fold. This means you have to rely on it hitting the opponent in order to have a chance at getting the benefit. So if I want alacrity from iAvenger I need to make sure:

• I’m not blinded on summon.
• Phantasm isn’t blinded when it casts
• The projectile isn’t blocked.
• The projectile isn’t dodged.
• The projectile isn’t absorbed.
• The projectile isn’t evaded/invulned.
• The projectile isn’t reflected.
• The projectile doesn’t get body-blocked.
• I’m in range to receive the bounce.

They’re just way too situational, and the odds get lower and lower as more people join the fight.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Morfedel.4165:

I like bouncing attacks. I don’t think the bouncing is the problem, I think the problem is several of the bounces are simply lackluster at best.

I will be honest with you, I think the shield phantasm is just fine, but I do agree that the torch phantasm and disenchanter are both extremely weak.

The problem with bounces is that all of the bouncing attacks are two-fold. This means you have to rely on it hitting the opponent in order to have a chance at getting the benefit. So if I want alacrity from iAvenger I need to make sure:

• I’m not blinded on summon.
• Phantasm isn’t blinded when it casts
• The projectile isn’t blocked.
• The projectile isn’t dodged.
• The projectile isn’t absorbed.
• The projectile isn’t evaded/invulned.
• The projectile isn’t reflected.
• The projectile doesn’t get body-blocked.
• I’m in range to receive the bounce.

They’re just way too situational, and the odds get lower and lower as more people join the fight.

To my utter and complete shock, especially considering how that other thread was just going, I find myself agreeing with you on this. But I think they can be improved by just making them more powerful, to address those other issues. I would have to think about it.

Morfedel.4165:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Morfedel.4165:

I like bouncing attacks. I don’t think the bouncing is the problem, I think the problem is several of the bounces are simply lackluster at best.

I will be honest with you, I think the shield phantasm is just fine, but I do agree that the torch phantasm and disenchanter are both extremely weak.

The problem with bounces is that all of the bouncing attacks are two-fold. This means you have to rely on it hitting the opponent in order to have a chance at getting the benefit. So if I want alacrity from iAvenger I need to make sure:

• I’m not blinded on summon.
• Phantasm isn’t blinded when it casts
• The projectile isn’t blocked.
• The projectile isn’t dodged.
• The projectile isn’t absorbed.
• The projectile isn’t evaded/invulned.
• The projectile isn’t reflected.
• The projectile doesn’t get body-blocked.
• I’m in range to receive the bounce.

They’re just way too situational, and the odds get lower and lower as more people join the fight.

To my utter and complete shock, especially considering how that other thread was just going, I find myself agreeing with you on this. But I think they can be improved by just making them more powerful, to address those other issues. I would have to think about it.

I like Kool’aid though. =P

The one thing I think would really help bounce projectiles (besides reworking the entire bounce mechanic) is to make them unblockable, or have the projectile burst a little AoE on each bounce. OR Be able to target allies with these phantasms.

Ultimately, bouncing attacks are okish offensively, but really problematic with friendly effects. You can get decent use out of things like mirror blade and winds of chaos only because you can personally position yourself to take advantage of it. Phantasms are dumb, and won’t do that at all. Additionally, as was mentioned elsewhere, it’s a really odd mechanic.

Me: ‘This phantasm gives you guys good stuff’
Party: ‘So to get the good stuff, should we stand next to the phantasm?’
Me: ‘Nope, to get the good stuff you have to stand next to the mob the phantasm is attacking’

It’s really counterintuitive, and links being able to provide helpful support to having your party in a potentially really odd position, on top being limited to only hitting one or two people as opposed to a full 5 target aoe.

Anet needs to just split phantasm attacks so that the offensive portion retains the bounce, and the support portion is a pbaoe pulsed buff centered on the phantasm. That makes the support from phantasms actually usable while still limiting their offensive aoe capabilities.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Morfedel.4165:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Morfedel.4165:

I like bouncing attacks. I don’t think the bouncing is the problem, I think the problem is several of the bounces are simply lackluster at best.

I will be honest with you, I think the shield phantasm is just fine, but I do agree that the torch phantasm and disenchanter are both extremely weak.

The problem with bounces is that all of the bouncing attacks are two-fold. This means you have to rely on it hitting the opponent in order to have a chance at getting the benefit. So if I want alacrity from iAvenger I need to make sure:

• I’m not blinded on summon.
• Phantasm isn’t blinded when it casts
• The projectile isn’t blocked.
• The projectile isn’t dodged.
• The projectile isn’t absorbed.
• The projectile isn’t evaded/invulned.
• The projectile isn’t reflected.
• The projectile doesn’t get body-blocked.
• I’m in range to receive the bounce.

They’re just way too situational, and the odds get lower and lower as more people join the fight.

To my utter and complete shock, especially considering how that other thread was just going, I find myself agreeing with you on this. But I think they can be improved by just making them more powerful, to address those other issues. I would have to think about it.

I like Kool’aid though. =P

The one thing I think would really help bounce projectiles (besides reworking the entire bounce mechanic) is to make them unblockable, or have the projectile burst a little AoE on each bounce. OR Be able to target allies with these phantasms.

Omg. I agree with you.

I think the apocalypse just started. Lol!

Fay.2357:

Ultimately, bouncing attacks are okish offensively, but really problematic with friendly effects. You can get decent use out of things like mirror blade and winds of chaos only because you can personally position yourself to take advantage of it. Phantasms are dumb, and won’t do that at all. Additionally, as was mentioned elsewhere, it’s a really odd mechanic.

Me: ‘This phantasm gives you guys good stuff’
Party: ‘So to get the good stuff, should we stand next to the phantasm?’
Me: ‘Nope, to get the good stuff you have to stand next to the mob the phantasm is attacking’

It’s really counterintuitive, and links being able to provide helpful support to having your party in a potentially really odd position, on top being limited to only hitting one or two people as opposed to a full 5 target aoe.

Anet needs to just split phantasm attacks so that the offensive portion retains the bounce, and the support portion is a pbaoe pulsed buff centered on the phantasm. That makes the support from phantasms actually usable while still limiting their offensive aoe capabilities.

+1

Pyro with the win.

Fay.2357:

Ultimately, bouncing attacks are okish offensively, but really problematic with friendly effects. You can get decent use out of things like mirror blade and winds of chaos only because you can personally position yourself to take advantage of it. Phantasms are dumb, and won’t do that at all. Additionally, as was mentioned elsewhere, it’s a really odd mechanic.

Me: ‘This phantasm gives you guys good stuff’
Party: ‘So to get the good stuff, should we stand next to the phantasm?’
Me: ‘Nope, to get the good stuff you have to stand next to the mob the phantasm is attacking’

It’s really counterintuitive, and links being able to provide helpful support to having your party in a potentially really odd position, on top being limited to only hitting one or two people as opposed to a full 5 target aoe.

Anet needs to just split phantasm attacks so that the offensive portion retains the bounce, and the support portion is a pbaoe pulsed buff centered on the phantasm. That makes the support from phantasms actually usable while still limiting their offensive aoe capabilities.

Considering this is how Illusionary Inspiration’s regen and the phantasmal defender’s damage absorb already work, your suggestion would probable be the easiest to implement. The only problem is iMage and iCap being ranged phantasms. They would need to be changed to Melee/mid range (600~) phantasms or have their buff pulse have a very large radius.

Fay.2357:

Ultimately, bouncing attacks are okish offensively, but really problematic with friendly effects. You can get decent use out of things like mirror blade and winds of chaos only because you can personally position yourself to take advantage of it. Phantasms are dumb, and won’t do that at all. Additionally, as was mentioned elsewhere, it’s a really odd mechanic.

Me: ‘This phantasm gives you guys good stuff’
Party: ‘So to get the good stuff, should we stand next to the phantasm?’
Me: ‘Nope, to get the good stuff you have to stand next to the mob the phantasm is attacking’

It’s really counterintuitive, and links being able to provide helpful support to having your party in a potentially really odd position, on top being limited to only hitting one or two people as opposed to a full 5 target aoe.

Anet needs to just split phantasm attacks so that the offensive portion retains the bounce, and the support portion is a pbaoe pulsed buff centered on the phantasm. That makes the support from phantasms actually usable while still limiting their offensive aoe capabilities.

I like and support the idea of making the support portions be pbaoe buff while keeping the offensive portions bouncing!

Mikkel.8427:

Fay.2357:

Ultimately, bouncing attacks are okish offensively, but really problematic with friendly effects. You can get decent use out of things like mirror blade and winds of chaos only because you can personally position yourself to take advantage of it. Phantasms are dumb, and won’t do that at all. Additionally, as was mentioned elsewhere, it’s a really odd mechanic.

Me: ‘This phantasm gives you guys good stuff’
Party: ‘So to get the good stuff, should we stand next to the phantasm?’
Me: ‘Nope, to get the good stuff you have to stand next to the mob the phantasm is attacking’

It’s really counterintuitive, and links being able to provide helpful support to having your party in a potentially really odd position, on top being limited to only hitting one or two people as opposed to a full 5 target aoe.

Anet needs to just split phantasm attacks so that the offensive portion retains the bounce, and the support portion is a pbaoe pulsed buff centered on the phantasm. That makes the support from phantasms actually usable while still limiting their offensive aoe capabilities.

Considering this is how Illusionary Inspiration’s regen and the phantasmal defender’s damage absorb already work, your suggestion would probable be the easiest to implement. The only problem is iMage and iCap being ranged phantasms. They would need to be changed to Melee/mid range (600~) phantasms or have their buff pulse have a very large radius.

If the pulse has a 5 target limit, there’s really no reason not to increase the radius. So what if it’s 900-1200 range if the spread of effect is capped anyway.

Bouncing attacks Don’t work out while / when used by AIs, enough said

One other way to change attacks which wouldn’t just force everything onto the same mechanic (I hate that personally, MMOs IMO go down the drain once “unification” starts because you end up with a balanced but soulless game) would be to introduce a few more rather reliable attack types to Phantasms:

• Exploding Projectile, line + ranged AE. The pMage could for example cast a pink fireball which travels to the target, hitting it or the first target in the line, applying effects to everyone it travels to and around the target.
• Line AE. This could be good for the Avenger, essentially casting a wall like we do with the shield. Very easy to understand, too.
• Cone AE. Already used a ton in GW2, so there’d be an easy understanding with this. This could for example fit the pMage, too. Channel a forward cone which applies retaliation respectively burning. Everyone can easily see what area the phantasm is firing into.

Downside of all of these? They’re actual AEs. It’s a mechanical change from a projectile, although the first one is sort of a hybrid. I’m not sure that ANet is willing to change the underlying mechanic.

Ross Biddle.2367:

If the pulse has a 5 target limit, there’s really no reason not to increase the radius. So what if it’s 900-1200 range if the spread of effect is capped anyway.

But see, you enter far into the “unification” territory with such a change, entering a slippery slope to more passive power and less class identity.

To think that path through:

1. The phantasm casts a bouncing projectile, applying burning to enemies and retaliation to friendlies.
2. Hey, that’s really bleh for applying friendly effects, shouldn’t we change it to be PBAE around the Phantasm? It’s a small change, and it would help people stay in range of all friendly effects at once.
3. Hey, now that it’s PBAE, why not increase the radius to relieve people from having to stick to the phantasm (the logical chain breaks here btw, as this clashes with one of the main reasonings for the previous step, aligning this and the phantasm-regen). It makes it much easier to get the benefits.
4. Now that people are nearly always in range, shouldn’t the phantasm just flat out keep up Retaliation instead of providing it on attack? It’s hardly a big change, and it’d make it less spammy for people (on the boon bar), plus less visual clutter from the explosions of retaliation going off respectively random retal with no obvious source.
5. Say, now that we got that, that’s a wee bit very passive, why even use Retaliation? That’s a bit of a roundabout way to add damage, why not remove it outright since it adds no gameplay elements, and instead bake the damage into the Mesmer’s and other people’s base moves?

The individual steps are all sensible from a game design perspective (2 → 3 is a bit of a weird thing, because people cited the regen range as a reason for a far-radius PBAE design above, but ignoring that the step would make sense), yet compare the final state (no retal, buff to damage values) with the first one (bouncing projectile applying retaliation).
It’s a huge difference, but more importantly it removed something which others did not have before.

Now, in many cases these “unique aspects” are downsides. You can find classes which don’t have to jump through these hoops to provide an effect or get a benefit, so we argue that this ought to be the target state for everyone.
Thing is though, these “downsides” are actually what creates the class. That is to say, the elements which are overly complicated comparing classes which provide them in passive or automatic fashion are the cornerstones upon which classes provide an identity, having to do X, Y or Z gameplay wise to get reward A, compared to someone else who just has A flat out (but has other things which are complicated for them).
This is the essence of MMO balance: Everyone can provide something, only it’s different levels of complicated for them to do.

This is a state of imbalance, yes.
An important one.

Now, ofc, specifically, this might still need a change but it shouldn’t become a passive or nearly-automatic effect. It should still be some special hybrid mechanic like a slow-traveling exploding projectile or anything like that (could in fact also be used for the Warlock to provide AE damage).

There’s no point in having effects that are never applied, whether to enemy or allie.

Enough said.

Ross Biddle.2367:

There’s no point in having effects that are never applied, whether to enemy or allie.

Enough said.

But they are frequently applied, just not the way people would like them to. That is to say, bouncing attacks don’t automatically hit the enemy bounces/2 times if it’s a single enemy despite this being the optimal case in 1v1 situations, and friendly effects won’t reliable apply to bounces/2 friendlies in the party just because they’re in 1200 radius.

And?

Yes that’s inconvenient compared to a 1200 radius PBAE effect, but then, so is a melee attack. I’d prefer those to be 1200 radius, too. They’re not. :P

By itself, that’s really not a good point against bouncing attacks simply because as I said the limitations of each type of move are what gives them identity (because we by-nature perceive the comparatively less-limited elements as their strengths as the baseline includes some limitations). Could we make a game in which there are no “downsides”?
Unlikely. As it is with human interaction, you can’t have any joy without another one suffering for it somewhere. You can’t have strong elements without weak elements. You need mechanical convoluted design to even have a way to know mechanical ease of use.

I wouldn’t call mesmer shatters/wells exactly the best AoE. Because half the effectiveness is gone in largescale battle or PvE (shatters, since the illusions die as soon as they spawn to casual cleave).

What’s more, effects like Lava Font and Meteor Shower and necro marks/wells are SUSTAINED AoE, which matters not only for tagging but for sustained pressure because the shatters and wells are damage packaged in a small burst window that can be heavily mitigated whereas blocking a single meteor from a meteor shower or a tick of lava font isn’t going to prevent you from eating a 6k+ meteor or two a few seconds later, and this is even more true for lava font.

Carighan.6758:

Ross Biddle.2367:

There’s no point in having effects that are never applied, whether to enemy or allie.

Enough said.

But they are frequently applied, just not the way people would like them to. That is to say, bouncing attacks don’t automatically hit the enemy bounces/2 times if it’s a single enemy despite this being the optimal case in 1v1 situations, and friendly effects won’t reliable apply to bounces/2 friendlies in the party just because they’re in 1200 radius.

And?

Yes that’s inconvenient compared to a 1200 radius PBAE effect, but then, so is a melee attack. I’d prefer those to be 1200 radius, too. They’re not. :P

By itself, that’s really not a good point against bouncing attacks simply because as I said the limitations of each type of move are what gives them identity (because we by-nature perceive the comparatively less-limited elements as their strengths as the baseline includes some limitations). Could we make a game in which there are no “downsides”?
Unlikely. As it is with human interaction, you can’t have any joy without another one suffering for it somewhere. You can’t have strong elements without weak elements. You need mechanical convoluted design to even have a way to know mechanical ease of use.

While you might have a point, there’s simply so little comparable balance you’re effectively wasting your breath -_-u

This is obvious in the build choices people make and build around.

I don’t even bother with bounce. It’s not terribly useful in a regime where it “might” be effective and clones and phantasms are so short lived.

For that matter, I don’t bother with phantasms except kittenter fodder. They suck… to put it succinctly.

Ithilwen.1529:

For that matter, I don’t bother with phantasms except kittenter fodder. They suck… to put it succinctly.

Well that’s not entirely fair. A well used phantasm can produce incredible results.

Disclaimer: Results relative to phantasm used.

Genuine L2P issue alarm!

@Ross Biddle

LOL at that .. inasmuch as I have expressly asked you to help me learn and made perceptible progress with your help. ( In fact, I wrecked you in PvP last night during a fight at mid, FoeFire ) The student reflects the teacher to some extent.

Still, I admit to being a mediocre Mesmer despite nearly 3 years of trying.

Ross Biddle.2367:

While you might have a point, there’s simply so little comparable balance you’re effectively wasting your breath -_-u

This is obvious in the build choices people make and build around.

Oh I don’t disagree.
But having played 4 MMORPGs into their declining phase now, I don’t think devs “going the easy route” on things like these is ever helpful. It just leads to player loss.

Rather make a strong bouncing-attacks build. Support the effects, offer a GM trait which increases bouncing effects in power the later in the chain a target is (both for beneficial and for offence effects ,and not by a little). Offer a utility “beacon” skill which forces all your bouncing skills to hit that target, friendly or enemy, temporarily being able to do once 1200 range jump to get there, allowing to somewhat control the chain.
Maybe offer a GM trait which flat out buffs the bounce range of all bouncing attacks to 750~900. That’d mess with pulling big time in PvE, but it’d be part of the charm plus it’s easily specced out of.

I know, I know, devs are seriously overworked as is. But meh, cutting off gameplay elements for simpler balance always seems to only help in the very short term, instead of investing the time to actually fix them.
At best, and maybe as a hybrid solution, use line-AEs with a limited number of targets counted from the front. This means you’re not actually guaranteed to hit the main targeted enemy, but you can fully rely on where the attack will happen (compare Revenant street skill).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

- (Raises shield and shouts " ’murica!" granting 2s Alacrity & inflicting 2s slow to all targets within 600r every 6 seconds)

Or give that thing a Warhorn and let it blow out Alacrity and Slow in a 600 radius every few seconds. :D

Ithilwen.1529:

@Ross Biddle

LOL at that .. inasmuch as I have expressly asked you to help me learn and made perceptible progress with your help. ( In fact, I wrecked you in PvP last night during a fight at mid, FoeFire ) The student reflects the teacher to some extent.

Still, I admit to being a mediocre Mesmer despite nearly 3 years of trying.

You were condi, I was running zero cleanse, and you were getting the +1’s. It wasnt a good position for me :p

If I were on phantrupt, different story :D

You know, all you have to do to make bouncing effects work is…

• Make the bouncing effect dodgable, evadable, blockable, but allow the projectile to continue in it’s bouncing path.

• Example: So winds of chaos flies toward a warrior using his shield block skill. The projectile hits, but the damage + condition fails. The winds of chaos projectile bounces back as normal toward its next target.

• Now the balance surrounding bouncing projectiles can’t fail due to poor mechanical restrictions, balance is easier to achieve, and all effects are applied where appropriate (winds of chaos boons to allies for example).

Problem solved.

@Chaos Archangel.5071:

So you want their attacks to be unblockable. I don’t agree.
It is fine to let people being able to block them. Better add some priorites than changing the skills (i think there are already some.)
You can still position yourself to be able to get what you want.

Why don’t the phantasms last long? Because we play inappropriate build in coordinaton with what is their purpose.
but they do their Job.