Guild Wars 2

tl;dr at bottom

Ever since builds like Blackwater, Prismatic Understanding builds have been extremely popular, whether they be condition or power based. They are extremely powerful, and in the right hands, a single Mesmer can have a real impact on much larger groups.

However

Lately, I have been trying different builds in WvW that do not use PU, as I have developed a few issues with it. Keep in mind, this is in regards to solo/small group roaming in WvW.

My two main problems with PU:

1. It’s a bit OP. i.e. If perfectly balanced is a 5/10, then I would say PU is a 7 or 8. I main Mesmer, but I would only consider myself of medium skill at best. With my skill level, I shouldn’t be able to win 1v2’s or 1v3’s against people of similar skill. However, the constant stealth combined with Mesmer clones and high damage makes 1v2-1v4 situations perfectly doable. I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

2. It takes up a lot of trait space. This is also the reason I don’t play shatter too often. For PU, you have to put 30 points into Chaos. Okay, you have PU, and maybe you put in a III in Chaos as well for blink cdr. In the middle slot, most builds trait Bountiful Interruption, which is a very good trait, but I would much rather take something else like weapon cdr.

So, what to do?
Mesmers have been solo roaming since far before PU was as popular as it is now. You’ll still see the occasional shatter mesmer out there, but shatter has such rigid traits. 30 for IP, 20 for DE, 20 more that you sacrifice a lot of damage if you put them anywhere but Domination. Building tanky also sacrifices damage while not utilizing nearly as well all of the wonderful ways mesmers have of avoiding damage. Other than stealth, mesmers have distortion, chaos armor, clones, interrupts, and my favorite, teleports.

Kaamau’s Evasive Signets is probably one of the best builds that uses distortion for survivability. Chaos armor can be quite strong, but I really don’t like the way that it lets people know that you’re you. Clones are built in to every build so…check. I have never seen an iterrupt build in WvW (although I often use them in sPvP), so any input on this would be nice.

Finally, teleports.
I love teleports. I never run a build without blink, and I always feel kind of naked without one or both of the cdr or range increase traits. Sword#3 is also extremely strong both offensively and defensively. My favorite combo is iLeap into a huge group->Blurred Frenzy->Blink to gtfo. Staff#2 is also okay, but 1. staff gives you chaos armor, effectively revealing you, and 2. staff doesn’t do a huge amount of damage outside of condition builds, which I personally am not a fan of. Last but certainly not least is portal. Whether you’re porting golems (I know, not small group stuff, but still) or doing a super-fun portal entre-> jump off the wall into swarm of invaders-> blurred frenzy -> portal exeunt to gtfo. Even if regular open-field combat, the sheer mobility and trolling power it gives you is limited only by your imagination. I don’t like going without it. Teleports are also very strong defensively. Never underestimate the power of suddenly being behind someone. In that time that it takes for them to realize that they are hitting clones, turn around, and find you, they are already dead, or you are already gone.
Here is my idea for a build based on teleports.

Interrupts. Not much to say here except that in a WvW environment, where running into a single person is pretty rare, you should probably be running Sw/F and GS for aoe. I know that staff also has an aoe interrupt, but it’s too unreliable for my tastes. The exception to this weapon spec is probably using imbued diversion, which is ridiculous in bigger fights.
Here is my idea for a WvW build based on interrupts.

The builds presented here are in no way my presentations of completed builds to the community. They are my ideas that I hope other mesmers can help me with. I would like more ideas for non-PU builds in solo/small group WvW roaming. (Also, preferably not x/20/x/x/30 shatter builds)

tl;dr: I’m tired of using PU. Please help me come up with some ideas for non-PU based WvW solo/small group roaming builds.

Edit: Lol you guys I don’t care whether you think PU is OP or not. I would just rather not play stealth Mesmer anymore because I’m tired of being able to win fights despite my poor awareness (please don’t let that sentence rile you up). This was supposed to be a thread about brainstorming other methods of doing damage and surviving when roaming, and I would appreciate if it could get back on track.

Regarding teleports, mesmer is indeed the undisputed master but trying to build around them as the focus (with nothing else) doesn’t seem very effective. I could certainly see them used as a spice around another build focus though.

Regarding interrupts, Staff/GS with CI/Imbued Diversion is pretty much chillruption (see my signature). I have a variant in that thread as well which is pretty much the exact trait spread in your interrupt idea. Both are very strong in PvP and WvW but vary in their effectiveness due to your opponent’s use of stability. If you’re up against a PUG zerg, the builds will do very well. If against organized guilds, you’ll have a tougher time but if you’re with a team that can boon strip for you, it’s golden.

I personally never played PU builds and have generally created builds outside the meta. Some have been effective and some not so much, but always fun. Keep up the theory-crafting and I’m sure you’ll find something you really enjoy.

To understand why the roaming builds look like they do you have to look at what we face. I refuse to play any build who is easy countered by 1 single class. No matter how skilled you are the majority of builds posted on this forums is easy shut down by a good thief with accented weapons.

Ppl simply don’t find it fun to end up in situations you can’t flee or win from. Sure shatter is fun, but how fun is it to repeatedly lose stacks and respawn just cause u run into "back opener [GXJ] for the 4 th time?

If we ever going to see a change to who is roaming and on what classes and builds thiefs need a change to their mechanics.

/Osicat

I have to agree with Osicat about this. As a roamer there is no sense in going for a spec that is only good in 1vs1 while most of the times i’m outnumbered.

For me PU is great not for the 1 more sec in stealth but for the boons it gives.

I think GW2 is not be about tanking the dmg. You see lot’s of people complaining that they have more then 3k armor and they are getting melted by some class, usually thiefs.

All 3 boons contribute to increase you survivability, or by avoiding an important hit or by reducing the dmg you would take or even by helping you recover from a hit you should had avoid.

When I try to make a build, I try to search for a thing that helps me in this department without have to go all bunker.

I think there are only 3 ways to do this:

1 – You get boons,
2 – You focus on avoid dmg
3 – You kill faster then you are killed (usually this one is only good 1 vs 1).

I think is hard to get a good boon survivability build, without PU.
We can gain this kind of boons with Bountiful Interruption,Signet of inspiration but they are random. Some Runes also give boons but I’m stuck with Travelers.

You can make a combo with phantasm healing and Ilusionary membrane but it’s on a 15 sec cd and you have to be near a phantasm all the time.

What I would really love is that Anet would give us access to boons without them be so random for example you interrupt you gain 1 of this 3 boons…So you make an action and you gain something that you expect.

You do another action and you know that you will get fury for example.
For builds that don’t want to invest in critical chance.

I don’t like to invest in a build that can give me an amazing buff if the gods are with me and I win or give me a boon that I don’t need and I lose.

I you are in a small group I think it’s easier to find builds that would allow you to get away from PU.

You use an Interruption builds and your team members do the DPS.

You do the DPS and gain boons from the party members, etc..

PS: Sorry for the long post

As long thieves are able to perma-stealth I don’t see a reason to nerf PU in general. Thieves are direct-damage stealthers while PU mesmers are condition damage stealthers.

Personally I would prefer to see a focus on condition damage/especially confusion+retaliation, dazing and more possibilities to transfer conditions/boons.

kaikalii.4198:

I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

I laugh at this.
A bad D/P “permastealth cheese” thief will only kill upleveleds and bad zerker rangers/warriors. It just takes one, decent thief (D/D or D/P) or one Hammer Warrior (or a necro, or a engi, or a mesmer… pretty much any class with either high burst or interrupts) to completely screw you in an outnumbered fight.
A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

There is absolutely NO way to defend PU unless you just want to feel good because you are winning outnumbered against people that:
1) are not specced for fighting you (there are NO builds that counter PU)
2) don’t even know how to play.

I will still jump and throw ballistas on every PU mesmer I stomp (and they are many, especially from Gandara LOL), no matter the reason that made you choose such a build.

It is hard to get away from PU when it comes to roaming. I ditched PU a few month ago in favour for the build in my signature. So I indeed use things you pointed out. Interrupts, Chaos Armor (Glamours) and mobility (Phase Retreat and iLeap). I switch between Blink and Decoy but I still run MI. However, I do play PvP and I’m not roaming in WvW. Stealth is at a big disadvantage in PvP because of capping points. If it wasn’t for that I might still run PU.

PU will ultimatively have to be changed considering its dominance when it comes to roaming. I think it is important to point out that PU is strongest in condition builds. It is a lot weaker in power build. Main reasons probably are that conditions still deal damage while stealthed and that you can run Rabid gear. When PU gets nerfed – which it probably should – people need to keep in mind power builds.

I personally would favour a change which makes chaining stealth unappealing without harshly reducing the effectiveness of PU. Such a change would hit condition builds harder than power builds which have to exit stealth to deal damage anyway. Another way would be adding other boons to PU. However, this might reduce the defensive value it provides at the moment.

Scenario 1
Making chaining unappealing.

• PU gets a 15s ICD
• Boons are granted when entering stealth
• Boon duration increased to 6s

The ICD cooldown takes away the benefit of chaining stealth for boon generation. It also makes constant re-stealthing unappealing. I expect both to tone down condition builds while having a lesser effect on power builds. The boons should be granted when entering stealth so the Mesmer can regenerate some health while hidden. The boon duration has to increase because the boons won’t be any good out of stealth otherwise. They would last 7s with 30 in Chaos. Decoy and Prestige would leave you with 3s of boons out of stealth. MI would only grant you 1s of out-of-stealth boons when using the full duration of stealth.

With 5%/20% additional boon duration they would last 8s/9s. This could be appealing for Mesmers who want to share boons. They will no longer have to sit in stealth to stack boons since the boons are triggered when entering stealth.

The boons granted through PU would be capped at an about 50% uptime this way when not investing into 50% boon duration. Aegis won’t be reapplied so it also takes away a chunk of survivability in general.

Scenario 2
Watering the effect of PU

• Add Swiftness
• Add Vigor

Additional boons will reduce the effective survivability. While Vigor does provide survivability it can also be obtained through other sources. It will ultimatively lead to less Protection and Aegis uptime which can’t be gained through other skills. I don’t see Retaliation being added since PU serves a defensive purpose.

Things I DON’T want to see

• Remove Aegis
• Remove Regeneration
• Remove Protection

I would not like Aegis to be removed since it would also remove one of the block sources Mesmers have. While not that prominent it does have a synergy with Retaliatory Shield. It also is extremly helpful for escaping bursts. I would not like Regeneration to be removed because Mesmers already lack recovery. For the same reason I’d rather keep Protection.

hihey.1075:

A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

Only bad people will be killed by a bad PU condi Mesmer since a big part of offense comes from a reactive skill or a long channeled skill. I’m so tired of people overseeing this glaring weakness.

[Edit] Bad math

I didn’t find my sPVP interrupt build viable in wvw for roaming, but I experimented with lockdown builds for medium/large scale with some interesting results, something like this (it’s not very polished and it’s only meant as utility for your group and/or harassing backliners).

kaikalii.4198:

Staff#2 is also okay, but 1. staff gives you chaos armor, effectively revealing you, and 2. staff doesn’t do a huge amount of damage outside of condition builds, which I personally am not a fan of.

Not true. Take staff into spvp lobby, slap on zerker amulet and the additional bounce trait and attack some golems. It will deal a lot of damage. Not to mention… staff 3 phantasm deals power damage only, quite a lot of it.

Xaylin.1860:

PU will ultimatively have to be changed considering its dominance when it comes to roaming. I think it is important to point out that PU is strongest in condition builds. It is a lot weaker in power build. Main reasons probably are that conditions still deal damage while stealthed and that you can run Rabid gear. When PU gets nerfed – which it probably should – people need to keep in mind power builds.

[Edit] Bad math

Must say its obvious your whole post is based on your experience and mainly come from sPvP. In wvwvw power PU as a roaming tool is in my opinion even stronger than condition as the enemy often chose to not fight you while in the smal room of sPvP it’s easier to force a fight. Also the introduction of accented gear, and especially weeps let power PU deal EXTREMLY good dmg, it’s possible to have well ower 2600 power with good crit, toughness etc by use food, gear, stacks etc.

So to say condition PU is stronger than power is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Only in wvwvw duels vs Elementalists I would agree in this, but then PU power is not a duel build, ins a roaming build mainly.

When you say PU need 2 be changed due to its dominance for roaming you can not only go for changes and nerds to PU, you HAVE to look at alternative roaming builds/setups aswell. Atm no other build give tools to handle a gank party going for you in open wvwvwv if it’s a team of thiefs and warriors.

A roaming thief can always stealth and poff away. A warrior roaming tun into Mr Bolt and run etc, mesmers main tool atm is stealth, boons and blink.

/Osicat

Osicat.4139:

Must say its obvious your whole post is based on your experience and mainly come from sPvP. In wvwvw power PU as a roaming tool is in my opinion even stronger than condition as the enemy often chose to not fight you while in the smal room of sPvP it’s easier to force a fight. Also the introduction of accented gear, and especially weeps let power PU deal EXTREMLY good dmg, it’s possible to have well ower 2600 power with good crit, toughness etc by use food, gear, stacks etc.

So to say condition PU is stronger than power is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Only in wvwvw duels vs Elementalists I would agree in this, but then PU power is not a duel build, ins a roaming build mainly.

PU is bad in PvP in general because of the point capping. So no, my suggestion is not related to PvP. PU condition Mesmers are actually a lot worse in PvP because of the lack of food and certain Runes.

I also didn’t say that PU power builds are crap. But there is less synergy with stealth than in condition builds. A condition Mesmer can still apply pressure while in stealth since the conditions keep working. That’s the reason for the Blackwater Build being so successful. A power Mesmer doesn’t deal damage while stealthed. He will have to stay out of stealth longer which makes him more susceptable to counters.

And how does roaming not involve duelling? It’s not like power Mesmers are better at walking than condition Mesmers. Please clarify your argument.

Osicat.4139:

When you say PU need 2 be changed due to its dominance for roaming you can not only go for changes and nerds to PU, you HAVE to look at alternative roaming builds/setups aswell. Atm no other build give tools to handle a gank party going for you in open wvwvwv if it’s a team of thiefs and warriors.

The suggested changes do not affect the stealth duration and it only reduces the boon duration when chaining stealth to create possible counters to it. If you time the stealth properly you will have a similar uptime of boons (except Aegis). It just makes chain stealthing unappealing boon-wise.

The issue you describe is on the Warrior/Thief side and not on the Mesmer side. There is no point in buffing the Mesmer to overcome it because it will make him too powerful. Warriors need adjustments regarding the movement (target requirement). Thieves still need a lower uptime of stealth. But I’m fine with their mobility. Besides, being ganked is a bad thing for everyone.

Regardless of the Warrior/Thief issue you also got to consider that out of combat mobility simply is a weakness Mesmers have. Creating a workaround for that would be pretty imbalanced.

Sure, lets put the anet sniper target on one of the few things that allows us to solo roam. I am all for open discussion on all things mesmer but this just seems like a bait thread for the anet monster to om nom nom on PU.

Zera.8907:

Sure, lets put the anet sniper target on one of the few things that allows us to solo roam. I am all for open discussion on all things mesmer but this just seems like a bait thread for the anet monster to om nom nom on PU.

Thinking that people are not aware of PU is a bit naive.

There are ways to counter PU:
– it is very, very weak to condition spam. 1v2, if both are condi-based, mesmer is toast.
– it does very little damage. Versus bunker, fight will last forever.
– most of it damage is caused by oppenent himself (meleeing clones, hitting chaos shield)
– staying far mitigates half of the conditions (on deaths clones traits will not kick in much).

After such 1.5 years of GW2, I’m still surprised how most opponents fall for stupid tricks. They sit in Chaos Storm, they auto-attack you when you have shield on, they cleave my clones, they stomp the clone, then bash you for playing AI based (PU condition is not AI) and complain on forums how OP PU is without even knowing what PU stands for or what it actually does. I even got these comment while playing shatter: ‘playing PU is cheese’ – ‘Well, I’m shatter, not PU’ – ‘Liar, you went invisible twice’.

I see hambow warriors in every single game. And 95% of them just run at you with their hammer trying to land a telegraphed attack on one of most evasive class. This is guaranteed win for the mesmer. Now if they just switch to their bow and keeps applying fire in large areas, it becomes very very difficult for the mesmer to both damage the warrior enough to go through the signet and stay alive at the same time. But I rarely see them doing that.
Same with thieves trying to backstab you inside your storm (with your aegis up), then 2-spam while confused.

I honestly all these can give a PU mesmer a run for its money:

Long bow warriors
Bunker guardians
Smart thieves
All engineers (especially the ones going condi-immune)
Condi necros
There is even a ranger spec I haven’t identify yet that really destroyed me a few times (but it may have been the player).

In the current ‘domination’ game types, PU is not OP due to its inability to decap (offense) or prevent decap (defense). If new game modes come out I’ll reconsider this however.

Lets keep complaining about PU and forget the nerfs to all the other builds. Hopefully soon we’ll be totally nerfed.

hihey.1075:

kaikalii.4198:

I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

I laugh at this.
A bad D/P “permastealth cheese” thief will only kill upleveleds and bad zerker rangers/warriors. It just takes one, decent thief (D/D or D/P) or one Hammer Warrior (or a necro, or a engi, or a mesmer… pretty much any class with either high burst or interrupts) to completely screw you in an outnumbered fight.
A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

There is absolutely NO way to defend PU unless you just want to feel good because you are winning outnumbered against people that:
1) are not specced for fighting you (there are NO builds that counter PU)
2) don’t even know how to play.

I will still jump and throw ballistas on every PU mesmer I stomp (and they are many, especially from Gandara LOL), no matter the reason that made you choose such a build.

I like you.

The pu face-rolling is lame and is a disgrace to mesmers. As a mesmer main since release (you know cause that matters) I would gladly see the class nerfed if it would serve to get rid of all the bad players that have polluted my class’ reputation.

WhiteRose.6934:

hihey.1075:

kaikalii.4198:

I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

I laugh at this.
A bad D/P “permastealth cheese” thief will only kill upleveleds and bad zerker rangers/warriors. It just takes one, decent thief (D/D or D/P) or one Hammer Warrior (or a necro, or a engi, or a mesmer… pretty much any class with either high burst or interrupts) to completely screw you in an outnumbered fight.
A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

There is absolutely NO way to defend PU unless you just want to feel good because you are winning outnumbered against people that:
1) are not specced for fighting you (there are NO builds that counter PU)
2) don’t even know how to play.

I will still jump and throw ballistas on every PU mesmer I stomp (and they are many, especially from Gandara LOL), no matter the reason that made you choose such a build.

I like you.

The pu face-rolling is lame and is a disgrace to mesmers. As a mesmer main since release (you know cause that matters) I would gladly see the class nerfed if it would serve to get rid of all the bad players that have polluted my class’ reputation.

Yep, I totally agree. I started as an Ele and then moved on to a mesmer+thief for roaming. I leveled up all other classes to understand how to beat them, but so far my main toons for small skirmishes are Thief and Mesmer. I really can’t stand the situation Mesmers are in at the moment, because the PU bandwagon has caused many people to hate us and the general consensus is that “Mesmers take no skill”.
I really miss the days in which winning a fight as a Mesmer made your opponent say “wow, you’re good!”. Sometimes I still see some old school mesmers in WvW, and when this happens I usually spare them (if I manage to down them of course :P), because I think Shatter should be encouraged.
That’s why I hate when people come here and give PU builds to newcomers, as it will only help them become bad players.

Stealth is just too powerful. I would be happy not use pu if they changed the way stealth works. There are no counter to pu same as there are no counter to D/P stealth thief. The problem is stealth. I wouldn’t hold my breath on Anet nerf stealth since it has no impact in blob v blobs or spvp.

Mogar.9216:

Stealth is just too powerful. I would be happy not use pu if they changed the way stealth works. There are no counter to pu same as there are no counter to D/P stealth thief. The problem is stealth. I wouldn’t hold my breath on Anet nerf stealth since it has no impact in blob v blobs or spvp.

No. The problem is not stealth. It’s the boons (Protection and Aegis – funny that a Mesmer has a higher Prot/Aegis uptime than a Guardian).
There are plenty of counters to D/P thieves, good players know that.

There are two methods to deal with the PU business.

1.) -My own personal preference- Scale other GM Traits to a similar level of effectiveness. You’re spending more than half of your points for something, it should be a potent ability. There are enough GM Traits in game that -honestly- need to be freaking buffed.

2.) -What’ll probably happen, with all the whinging RE: PU- Drop either the Boon uptime, or the kinda of Boons applied. What can I say there, but “meh?” The issue is that, as we all know by now, ANet doesn’t typically nerf a bit, they nerf like it’s freaking Nuclear Winter.

As for builds I use: I’m typically either Condition/Interrupt, or Hybrid/Interrupt. The BI/CI combo’s hella fun.

Well I usually just take Chaotic Dampening and Illusionists Celerity to fully trait Phase Retreat in my scepter/pistol + staff condi build for WvW. That 6 second Phase Retreat is pretty darn useful for kiting and it’s much more fun to use active evasion instead of sitting in stealth all day.

As for the issues of PU, well I would certainly like to see it nerfed a little as I’m slightly worried that its presence is going to lead to other traits being nerfed unnecessarily. However, as all balance changes are based around sPvP, I honestly don’t think PU is going to receive any changes until Thieves are rebalanced once again.

Xaylin.1860:

A power Mesmer doesn’t deal damage while stealthed. He will have to stay out of stealth longer which makes him more susceptable to counters.

And how does roaming not involve duelling? It’s not like power Mesmers are better at walking than condition Mesmers. Please clarify your argument.

Regardless of the Warrior/Thief issue you also got to consider that out of combat mobility simply is a weakness Mesmers have. Creating a workaround for that would be pretty imbalanced.

Note first of all I not totaly dissagreeing with you, your arguments are valid in soem ways. Especialy the Thief forcing the current build/specc/class setup valid for roaming.

I do hower have a feeling alot of ppl think power PU deal low dmg, I see loads of post about ppl say PU power have trubble with bunker spec, necros etc. here I dissagree as my experience is that power PU deals tons of dmg, with vuln on shatter a daze shatter stack a huge amount of vuln for the team aswell.

In any team of 2-5 player setup power PU deal a huge amount of dmg.

Specced 10-20-30-10 with mantra heal and mantra condi clense you can fast deal with 2×4 conditions, and ofc add stealth to that. So condition is not accualy a big porblem for PU mesmers as long they specced for it and not go full in versus a condition team.

The part about power btter for mobile fighting I base on the fact a condition mesmer NEED your enemy to be aggressive to deal maximum dmg potensial. A power mesmer can fast combo GS Bounce attack, phantasm, sword form ground + 2 source shatter into sword cripple + sword 2. This deal nice aoe dmg, it burts ppl down who have no intesnion fo fight and it apply some slows etc.

The workaround for mesmer in mobility is called “travaler runes”

PU mesmer Burst dmg:

/Osicat

I don’t think PU does super high DPS (decent for sure) but the burst damage is not bad at all, with a power setup. I have less knowledge about the condi version as I have sort of always played PU power.

I would really like to play a dueling/chaos/illusions build but it’s pretty hard to warrant shifting those 20-30 points to Illusions – I think PU is one of those trait conundrums, it’s put in arguably the least defined trait line, which on top of it has pure defense/utility base stats, so that the remainder of the points need to make up for the investment to a slightly greater degree than usual, or else synergize with the main trait. But maybe I’m off in my thinking

WhiteRose.6934:

hihey.1075:

kaikalii.4198:

I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

I laugh at this.
A bad D/P “permastealth cheese” thief will only kill upleveleds and bad zerker rangers/warriors. It just takes one, decent thief (D/D or D/P) or one Hammer Warrior (or a necro, or a engi, or a mesmer… pretty much any class with either high burst or interrupts) to completely screw you in an outnumbered fight.
A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

There is absolutely NO way to defend PU unless you just want to feel good because you are winning outnumbered against people that:
1) are not specced for fighting you (there are NO builds that counter PU)
2) don’t even know how to play.

I will still jump and throw ballistas on every PU mesmer I stomp (and they are many, especially from Gandara LOL), no matter the reason that made you choose such a build.

I like you.

The pu face-rolling is lame and is a disgrace to mesmers. As a mesmer main since release (you know cause that matters) I would gladly see the class nerfed if it would serve to get rid of all the bad players that have polluted my class’ reputation.

Removing PU will never remove mesmers using stealth, and in great amounts. It’s essential to Mesmer survival.

To the OP,

For your interrupt build here’s how to ice the cake. Take condition duration food, hydro sigils on each weapon, and possibly swap out your runes for Grenth. Then combine your interrupts with long duration chills.

I usually run power PU. Almost all zerked with 2-3 dire trinkets to keep cond dmg at about 500 in WVW. I simply ignor cond PU mesmers with torch and staff. Fighting them is boring. Running after them is stupid. Hate trolls. With all perks my attack is 3600-3800 in WVW. I have 16 sec on my pistol and CS phats. I do more direct dmg comparing to almost every class. I can’t compete with full glass thievs or fully Zerked wars but if no one kills my phats and i have 3 of them hitting same target my guess i can outdps even them.
What i don’t understand is why everybody saying PU is OP. First it is 30 points for 1 additional sec of invis. Protection and aegis is nice but i can live without it. With or without PU in WVW i will always run Decoy and Massinvis while running solo or with small group.

Ross Biddle.2367:

WhiteRose.6934:

hihey.1075:

kaikalii.4198:

I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

I laugh at this.
A bad D/P “permastealth cheese” thief will only kill upleveleds and bad zerker rangers/warriors. It just takes one, decent thief (D/D or D/P) or one Hammer Warrior (or a necro, or a engi, or a mesmer… pretty much any class with either high burst or interrupts) to completely screw you in an outnumbered fight.
A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

There is absolutely NO way to defend PU unless you just want to feel good because you are winning outnumbered against people that:
1) are not specced for fighting you (there are NO builds that counter PU)
2) don’t even know how to play.

I will still jump and throw ballistas on every PU mesmer I stomp (and they are many, especially from Gandara LOL), no matter the reason that made you choose such a build.

I like you.

The pu face-rolling is lame and is a disgrace to mesmers. As a mesmer main since release (you know cause that matters) I would gladly see the class nerfed if it would serve to get rid of all the bad players that have polluted my class’ reputation.

Removing PU will never remove mesmers using stealth, and in great amounts. It’s essential to Mesmer survival.

Who said that mesmer doesn’t need stealth? Stealth Is needed. PU is not until you just want to troll or Faceroll.

Also, to the above poster, if you really think that you could live without those boo s, then do it. People will remember you and will more willingly fight you when you roam if you’re not a PU user.

So much misinformation coming from the PU haters, I can’t honestly believe you ever played the spec.

I am glad you guys can get together and bromance it up! Let the hate unite!!

EnderzShadow.2506:

So much misinformation coming from the PU haters, I can’t honestly believe you ever played the spec.

I am glad you guys can get together and bromance it up! Let the hate unite!!

I can’t honestly believe you ever played the spec either

honestly this thread is lame. PU is not that good. Roll up a dire P/D thief and stack 25 bleeds and then come back. My condi thief and condi warrior is so much better than my PU Mesmer it is just silly

hihey.1075:

Ross Biddle.2367:

WhiteRose.6934:

hihey.1075:

kaikalii.4198:

I sometimes feel like I may as well just play a D/P permastealth cheese thief.

I laugh at this.
A bad D/P “permastealth cheese” thief will only kill upleveleds and bad zerker rangers/warriors. It just takes one, decent thief (D/D or D/P) or one Hammer Warrior (or a necro, or a engi, or a mesmer… pretty much any class with either high burst or interrupts) to completely screw you in an outnumbered fight.
A bad PU condi Mesmer will kill pretty much everything else.

There is absolutely NO way to defend PU unless you just want to feel good because you are winning outnumbered against people that:
1) are not specced for fighting you (there are NO builds that counter PU)
2) don’t even know how to play.

I will still jump and throw ballistas on every PU mesmer I stomp (and they are many, especially from Gandara LOL), no matter the reason that made you choose such a build.

I like you.

The pu face-rolling is lame and is a disgrace to mesmers. As a mesmer main since release (you know cause that matters) I would gladly see the class nerfed if it would serve to get rid of all the bad players that have polluted my class’ reputation.

Removing PU will never remove mesmers using stealth, and in great amounts. It’s essential to Mesmer survival.

Who said that mesmer doesn’t need stealth? Stealth Is needed. PU is not until you just want to troll or Faceroll.

Also, to the above poster, if you really think that you could live without those boo s, then do it. People will remember you and will more willingly fight you when you roam if you’re not a PU user.

Exactly. My mesmer uses stealth don’t get wrong. I’m saying that using a set up that makes you able to bunker against multiple assailants and just dodge roll all day for condi clones, or just stack phantasms (and stealth to get three bunker boons) for effectiveness takes about as much talent as chewing gum.

Shatter mesmer, in contrast rolls with little to no armor, no health, and requires constant awareness of the battle. Not to mention keeping track of where your illusions are otherwise your burst is wasted.

Not saying shatter is a ‘better’ set up, but it takes more knowledge of how the class works. You can play PU and not know anything about how to play mesmer and be successful. You try to roll shatter mesmer in wvw not knowing the class, you’re dead before you spawn.

Like I previously stated, it’s ruined the reputation of the class and I go out of my way to kill PU mesmers with my full glass cannon just to take them down a notch.

Lest’s start with some fatcs :

Analysis of PU impact :

Stealth duration

A full stealth mesmer (decoy , veil , torch, mass invisibility with torch traited) can stay stealthed about 29.50% of time.

With PU 38.22% of the time. Global stealth duration increase 29.49%.

The most ‘stealthy’ skills are The Prestige (12% without PU 16% with PU) followed by Decoy (7.5% without PU and 10% with PU) and get a +33% increase from PU.

Now PU boon contribution :

Right actually forgot the “number of boons applied” mulitiplier+
The Prestige : 4 every 25 secs
Decoy : 4 every 40 sec
Mass invisibility : 6 every 90 sec
Veil : 5 every 90 sec

The Prestige + Decoy = One boon every 15 3.84 sec in average.
And one boon every 11.5 2.61 sec with all skills.

Now Boon applied by PU last at least 3.9sec since you have 30 pt in Chaos.
PU boon contribution = +1 random boon (protection regeneration ageis) 34% 149% (perma 1.5 boon)
of time with all skills.
And 26%101,5% of time if you just use Decoy and The Prestige.

My conclusion :
The skills that make PU “OP” are definitely The Prestige and Decoy if both are used in the same build.

Different builds using PU

“Passive” condition builds
Is definitenly lame :
You can stay stealthed about 40% of time meaning about 100% effective stealth since you have to attack from time to time anyway. This gives people an impression (is this just an impression ?) that they never get to target and attack you which effectively contribute to “harming mesmer reputation”.

PU Power Builds with torch :
More active than condition builds stealth is used to heal/ lower pressure in crital moments or run away (basically like a thief). BUT using both The Prestige and Decoy makes it a little lame as long as we are talking of 1v1 situations (same impression of I cant target this guy when I need to).

Now PU Power builds with just Decoy and mass invisibility
(Satff/GS for exemple )
Seems pretty Ok to me.
Stealth only 16.67% of the time.
Get a boon every 6 sec for 3.9 sec -> boon coverage 65% of time.

In the end
While PU is strong the skill making it “OP” is clearly The Prestige. A resonable increase of it’s cd Should be enough of a nerf… But this would hurt other builds. On the other hand nerfing PU (depending on the way it’s done) will also hurt fine builds..

Not everything is black or white and balancing is rarely easy…

Edit :

1-Adding the number of boon applied multiplier just make prestige looks more powerfull.

2-I used the traited prestige because most "bad PU " users trait it while not traiting decoy (maybe I’m wrong ). Anyway Prestige is still better untraited vs traited decoy.

3-Effectively, the shorter the cd the Better the PU boost. But I wanted to stress that traits like PU are strong in a context and never alone. (PU with 0 stealth skills does absolutely nothing) so balancing can involve both changing this context and/or the trait.
Modifying PU can impact other builds that are ok right now and dont need to be nerfed (also “anti-PU faction” see it all black) as changing the context would prolly nerf other builds .
Who is deciding what build should suffer from (and not be balanced by) a nerf ? That was the point.

4-In the end we agree nefing Prestige is not a solution.

Now I realize I was off topic in my previous post (like some of us)

@kaikalii.4198
You can try the :
20/20/30/0/0 Staff / GS build and trade PU for Boontifull interuption to begin.
Then slowly remove points from Chaos to invest them in other trait lines. This will essentially make the build more “glass like” (more damages / less “tankiness”) exept if you go for inspiration…

Redg.9807:

…

You might want to reconsider your analysis since many of your numbers are off.

You compare a traited Prestige and untraited Decoy. I also have no clue at all how you got your numbers on how many boons you get. Assuming the maximum time in stealth with PU untraited Prestige gives you 1 boon every 7.5s (30s/4). Decoy gives you 1 boon every 10s (40s/4).

Regardless, Prestige is not the reason for PU being overpowered. It just happens to be the most efficient stealth skill because it got the lowest cooldown. That is all your analysis shows. It’s cooldown is already pretty high for a weapon skill and increasing it will make it useless as condition cleanse and very unappealing for every non-PU build.

Why would you nerf Prestige CD? At 30 sec it’s in a decent place right now and that torch recharge trait is competing with shatter boon removal (a much better trait).

Xaylin.1860:

Redg.9807:

…

You might want to reconsider your analysis since many of your numbers are off.

You compare a traited Prestige and untraited Decoy. I also have no clue at all how you got your numbers on how many boons you get. Assuming the maximum time in stealth with PU untraited Prestige gives you 1 boon every 7.5s (30s/4). Decoy gives you 1 boon every 10s (40s/4).

Regardless, Prestige is not the reason for PU being overpowered. It just happens to be the most efficient stealth skill because it got the lowest cooldown.

Saying PU stealth gives you x number of boons over y amount of seconds in relation to cooldowns is also just nonense IMO. PU fires off 3-5(?) boons depending on what stealth skill you used, in quick succession. Arranging the numbers in this way makes it look like PU provides a steady constant stream of powerful boons, when it is in fact more like boonspam where you hope that it will stack either regen or swiftness, depending on what you need the most.

I’ll have to disagree on The Prestige. Stealth, AoE blind, AoE burn, blast finisher (if they ever fix it) and condition cleanse when traited is too much for one off-hand skill on a base 30s CD.
I know it’s hard to get full use out of it all the time, but I think that’s because they packed way too much stuff into a single skill.

Tbh I’m bored with the silliness of this whole discussion. What is the point of this thread? Is it a complain about Mesmer by Mesmer about we have traits that actually are useful.

Serious, want to play harder cause it’s more fun go by al mean, go spec a setup you like, use focus by al mean and maybe even play with one hand cause then sure ppl will respect you in open fights better cause. If you win with that you deffo pro.

I do not seen any thiefs threads about thiefs want their backstabbing unviable as the fact they kill people make them look bad, don’t seen any warriors want the signet deleted as it sure would make ppl respect them if they dint have it.

Tbh, we mesmers have portal in tPvP, let’s start a hate thread about that as it’s useful, if we instead used feedback, mimic and mantra of pain we would be more respected. And GS accualy not bugged anymore, we should get that some attention cause we can’t have it that way.

In RL do you guys turn of ABS in your cars as it’s cheating, do the dishes by hand for more respect and refuse to eat anything you not hunted and killed yourself?

/Osicat

I think most players suffer from a form of stockholm syndrome after being nerfed so many times. They see something nice about their class and think,“Anet is going to nerf this eventually.” Then after a few patches huddled in fear but left unscathed they start to think,“Anet should nerf this it’s too strong.”

Osicat.4139:

Tbh I’m bored with the silliness of this whole discussion. What is the point of this thread? Is it a complain about Mesmer by Mesmer about we have traits that actually are useful.

Serious, want to play harder cause it’s more fun go by al mean, go spec a setup you like, use focus by al mean and maybe even play with one hand cause then sure ppl will respect you in open fights better cause. If you win with that you deffo pro.

I do not seen any thiefs threads about thiefs want their backstabbing unviable as the fact they kill people make them look bad, don’t seen any warriors want the signet deleted as it sure would make ppl respect them if they dint have it.

Tbh, we mesmers have portal in tPvP, let’s start a hate thread about that as it’s useful, if we instead used feedback, mimic and mantra of pain we would be more respected. And GS accualy not bugged anymore, we should get that some attention cause we can’t have it that way.

In RL do you guys turn of ABS in your cars as it’s cheating, do the dishes by hand for more respect and refuse to eat anything you not hunted and killed yourself?

/Osicat

I have to agree, the PU-hate seems to be the flavor of the month right now…I think the problem with the state of this game is that when something actually works like it should people just assume its broken…

PU is a solid trait that gives a nice return for investing 30 points into its tier. TBH the only trait that I have found I “cannot live without” has been Deceptive Evasion…PU I can take or leave, but regardless think it is more than fair given what you give up to get it trait-wise.

I kept getting kitten talked in sPvP for using this build. I have not played since May of 2013 and all the changes made me try something I had never done before, so I made this build. Once people kept saying things like “Blackwater scum” and “PU Faget” I had to look up why. And it turns out that this is a popularly strong build that was made a long time ago.

Little did I know, but I love this build to death. It is SOOO fun.

Yeah, stop whining about PU unless you are a backstabbing thief that can no longer get as many easy kills as before.

Osicat.4139:

Xaylin.1860:

PU will ultimatively have to be changed considering its dominance when it comes to roaming. I think it is important to point out that PU is strongest in condition builds. It is a lot weaker in power build. Main reasons probably are that conditions still deal damage while stealthed and that you can run Rabid gear. When PU gets nerfed – which it probably should – people need to keep in mind power builds.

[Edit] Bad math

Must say its obvious your whole post is based on your experience and mainly come from sPvP. In wvwvw power PU as a roaming tool is in my opinion even stronger than condition as the enemy often chose to not fight you while in the smal room of sPvP it’s easier to force a fight. Also the introduction of accented gear, and especially weeps let power PU deal EXTREMLY good dmg, it’s possible to have well ower 2600 power with good crit, toughness etc by use food, gear, stacks etc.

So to say condition PU is stronger than power is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Only in wvwvw duels vs Elementalists I would agree in this, but then PU power is not a duel build, ins a roaming build mainly.

When you say PU need 2 be changed due to its dominance for roaming you can not only go for changes and nerds to PU, you HAVE to look at alternative roaming builds/setups aswell. Atm no other build give tools to handle a gank party going for you in open wvwvwv if it’s a team of thiefs and warriors.

A roaming thief can always stealth and poff away. A warrior roaming tun into Mr Bolt and run etc, mesmers main tool atm is stealth, boons and blink.

/Osicat

Do you have a link for a Power PU build?

@Zypher.

This is my PU power build, Hidden Cat. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Osicat-s-Hidden-Cat-4-0-Power-GS-PU/first

Into video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTc-GuHlfKs

/Osicat

PS The Osicat homapge for Mesmer builds etc: http://osicat.weebly.com/index.html

The problem for me personally Osicat, is that the build is a crutch. I’m going to sound kinda condescending here for a second but I used to have so much respect for you as a mesmer player. But seeing even you resorting to using such a crutch of a build is disheartening.

Let me define my reasoning if you will. The mesmer as a class is pretty complex. The way that illusions are tied to a target, how shatters work, the dependence on positioning and map awareness in order to survive; All staples of the mesmer class. Now look at PU in it’s current state, namely condi PU. The basis of the build is “stealth, dodge, stealth, dodge, block (scepter), stealth, dodge.” The issue is this breeds poor play. You don’t need to actively dodge attacks, because you always have aegis or protection. The players that this build has spawned embarrass me, and I find no guilt in putting them in their place in wvw.
Power PU is slightly better in the sense that they don’t have all the armor (as some build zerker to benefit the phantasms.) My point still stands that the passive nature still breeds poor play.

The mesmer isn’t meant to be this passive playstyle, and it certainly doesn’t deserve the reputation that it’s gaining as this easy-mode class. Everytime I see a mesmer with full condi food, scepter/torch my heart just sinks.

I dont see anything wrong with PU, personally. Sure I use it to kitten on my mesmer so you can all say I am bias, but really the trait isnt that extreme.

The one thing I think might be making it go too far is Prestige. As a primarily ranged class it is a bit too easy to gain stealth for mesmers if you have a torch+cdr. Maybe they should consider making an “on hit” requirement on Prestige as there is with CnD. That allows people to actually counter what the mesmer is doing which is the main issue with how memsers use stealth atm – there is no way to stop it unlike with thieves where a good dodge or interupt can serve as a counterplay.

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem for me personally Osicat, is that the build is a crutch. I’m going to sound kinda condescending here for a second but I used to have so much respect for you as a mesmer player. But seeing even you resorting to using such a crutch of a build is disheartening.

Let me define my reasoning if you will. The mesmer as a class is pretty complex. The way that illusions are tied to a target, how shatters work, the dependence on positioning and map awareness in order to survive; All staples of the mesmer class. Now look at PU in it’s current state, namely condi PU. The basis of the build is “stealth, dodge, stealth, dodge, block (scepter), stealth, dodge.” The issue is this breeds poor play. You don’t need to actively dodge attacks, because you always have aegis or protection. The players that this build has spawned embarrass me, and I find no guilt in putting them in their place in wvw.
Power PU is slightly better in the sense that they don’t have all the armor (as some build zerker to benefit the phantasms.) My point still stands that the passive nature still breeds poor play.

The mesmer isn’t meant to be this passive playstyle, and it certainly doesn’t deserve the reputation that it’s gaining as this easy-mode class. Everytime I see a mesmer with full condi food, scepter/torch my heart just sinks.

100% agree with everything you just said. It almost look like I was the author of your post as you wrote exactly the things I wanted to point out (about Osi, about the PU gameplay and about my mind blowing whenever I see a mesmer with Condi food and scepter torch).

Still, OP, there is no easy mode for a mesmer despite going PU. Alternatives are Shatter and phantasm, or hybrid (which is the one I use). If you get discouraged early just stick with brainless PU.

WhiteRose.6934:

The players that this build has spawned embarrass me, and I find no guilt in putting them in their place in wvw.

What do you mean by “putting them in their place in wvw”?

Clownmug.8357:

I think most players suffer from a form of stockholm syndrome after being nerfed so many times. They see something nice about their class and think,“Anet is going to nerf this eventually.” Then after a few patches huddled in fear but left unscathed they start to think,“Anet should nerf this it’s too strong.”

I remember saying something almost exactly like this, RE: the Shattered Strength “buff”. Seriously, if 1/illusion wasn’t enough, and 3/per was “too much” (BS, tbh … Empower’s laughing at us), why did other Mesmers want it dropped from 3 → 1 again? Why not segue downward; try 2/per for a while, see how it panned out? Meh.

This is such an absolute non-issue. PU Mesmers, blackwater builds especially, are only a threat if you insist on fighting them and there’s always a choice not to. They have no ability to lock down a target and most of their damage (Confusion, Torment from scepter 2, conditions from killed clones) can be avoided by simply not attacking them. Their damage contribution, when not attacked, are noticeably less than other bunker build. I know everyone wants to win every fight they get into. Just keep in mind that you don’t lose the fights you don’t take.

In PvP PU Mesmers are a liability and in PvE they’re like any other bunker class, not super useful. PU is not the god spec everyone wants it to be. The next time a PU mesmer jumps you on the field feel free to say “I know your game and I’m not playing it, guy” because you can and it’s the easiest thing in the world.

PU = shadow arts thief = perplexity anything = terrormancer = healing signet warrior

Is PU cheesy? Sure. Unfortunately there is so much cheese in this game (especially in wvw) that it’s hard to consider anything cheesy at all.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter – 95% of the people that whine about PU are wvw roamers playing one of the above-mentioned specs.