Guild Wars 2

@ Juno, you may have more health, but you will get hit for a ton more. you also loose sharper images, which will, as it happens, lower your dps by quite a bit as all your illusions will be unable to apply bleeding fairly often (staff clones will still have a rng chance on the bleeding, but it will be a lot less then possible to stack up higher), and power in a condition build is pretty lacklustre, most of your damage will be coming from conditions making the base hits a kind of moot point.

Btw, your vitality, will NOT affect phantasms in any way, and I don’t really see how more vitality would make sceptre more viable when giving up precision/toughness ^^

With Arcane Thievery and Far Reaching Manipulations, I have found that at least for Roaming I don’t miss traited Torch, also can add Null Field which also allows for traited Pistol to get combo field and condition removal.

Understand your logic though.

@Care, heh, I don’t think I have any idea at all who you are responding to there. Anyway, yeh we can get some pretty good condition removal, I just happen to like the torch trait because it reduces the cool down on 4 so you get your stealth faster, the condition clearing was just a little bonus XD

Natsu Dragneel.1625:

@Care, heh, I don’t think I have any idea at all who you are responding to there. Anyway, yeh we can get some pretty good condition removal, I just happen to like the torch trait because it reduces the cool down on 4 so you get your stealth faster, the condition clearing was just a little bonus XD

Aaaand, from the wiki it seems as if the image actually clears condis too, both on cast but also with his bolt. So in reality image can clear quite a few condis, if allowed to live.

Sorry Natsu :-) that’s what happens when you start to reply to a post then your kids bug you, you forget what you were doing and when you remember and finish your post and submit it it’s a page later :-)

I really like this build but ever since I switched my Mesmer (and Necro) over to Traveler runes, I don’t know if I can go back to being so slow.

So here is my take on Natsu’s Blackwater build…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNArfWlwzKqHVTmGb9IipHBHyBckUUavWJF62FC-jQCBYhERj0CKjkIBKHqIaslhFRjVJTIVzATHLyeEYSBAx0I-e

It is basically the same build except it uses Traveler runes, slightly different jewelry and Sigil of Might on both Scepter and Staff. Once you reach 25 stacks of Corruption, you swap out Torch for another Torch with Sigil of Bursting (6% Condition Dmg).

I also swap Null Field out for Arcane Thievery at times.

At this point I’m not sure if the Sigils of Battle are worth it or if I should use either the sigils of the original build or some other sigil choices. The Battle sigils do replace some of the extra damage that is missing from the loss of the Perplexity runes but I am not sure if Sigils of Earth or Blood would be a better choice.

Thoughts?

edit: updated with higher level consumables and changed to Condition Duration food.

I’d like to start by saying thank you for a very interesting and inspiring thread.

Secondly, thnx for sharing this build. I honestly can’t remember the last time I had so much fun in WvW as I’ve had these last couple of days running this build.

I’m so eager to keep getting better at it but already I’ve managed several 1vs2 and my survival time against larger enemy numbers is greatly increased. Really nice build, very good discussion concerning pros and cons. I’ve been alternating between the original blackwater build and my own version that simply takes PU of the table and adds 5 points in Dueling for a guaranteed confusion on death from my clones. It works really well imo.

Again, thanks for sharing and may pink butterflies watch over you ; )

Has anyone played this in full rampager gear? (share your experience)

P.S.
Maybe already answered, Ill admit i skimmed true a lot of the posts…
In that case, sorry for redundancy.

You would loose out on a hell of a lot of toughness and a lot of condition damage, all for a bit of power (this is a condition, not power build) and more crit chance (around 40% is already more then enough)

not sure if anyone has asked this before but could this work in pve too? I know its pvp build but I like the idea and I don’t enjoy pvp that much.

Good work “Salamander” :P

I like the build in zerg. The only problem of this build is you cannot stop any one who just run away… The more a enemy engage on you, the more damage you deal to him… But I cannot tolerate enemy running away… I think only shatter build with high burst is for a roaming chaser.

Hey Natsu, just wondering, have you tried to run the build with 30/20/20 instead, with 3 charge mantras and for utilities decoy/mantra of concentration/mantra of resolve?
Seems to work quite well actually, though no blink makes it a bit more slow which is always a baaad thing

@Natsu
What do you think about getting bountiful interruptions? Since you changed to rune of perplexity, interrupting can now give you +175 condition damage on top of the 5 stacks of confusion.

KazNaka.4718:

@Natsu
What do you think about getting bountiful interruptions? Since you changed to rune of perplexity, interrupting can now give you +175 condition damage on top of the 5 stacks of confusion.

I have tried the BI trait. During camp flips and multiple engagements it was nice to see 15 might stacked but I noticed not having the staff traited once I blew my cool downs. Using staff blink to flee an engagement is nice too. So when that doesn’t refresh as fast you’ll notice. I keep trying to swap out torch with pistol though. Bleeds stack faster but then again durng multiple engagements its not as effective.

I’ve tried dropping the power trait line( by the way putting condition duration on the power triat line is wrong anet) going with 0 25 30 5 10 so you get confusion on clone pop and retal on phant hit traiting 33% confusion. With perplexity I was able to stack a max of 18 stacks of confusion but I found the other condis lacked the duration and would drop off to fast to create the high stack I desired. Often a player would fall back only to cleanse. So instead I tried using givers weapons which in turn lowered my condi damage but I found that having perplexity runes plus 33% condi trait plus givers plus 40 condi duration on food was a waste because you can only stack 100% duration on confusion. The goal I was seeking was the ability to stack not only confusion with high stacks but give high stacks of bleeds which in turn is greatly beneficial to the 5 stacks of torment we give with scepter. Ultimate goal is to apply high bleeds and confusion stacks, apply burning and poison, self retal and phant retal ending with that torment. This basically melts a person. I keep messing with the build because I can’t seem to get it just right for all situations. I even tried using a sigil of earth for bleeds on crit. I dropped the confusion on death trait because it only gives 1 stack. also dropped sigil of earth because it’s only 1 stack per 2 seconds. staff and scepter hit so slow.

I also tried going 20 deep in the power trait line for the condi duration and also using givers weapons supplementing the low condition with the sigil that provides 180 condi and a stun of 3 seconds. My bleeds only ticked for 98 to 112 vs the 140 I was getting. I wish I can find a way to give 25 stacks of bleeds and 25 stacks of confusion at the same time. We are suppose to be masters of confusion and yet I have had both warriors and thieves tell me they can stack 25 confusion and thieves can stack 25 bleeds.

Maybe they can stack that much on someone that’s afk…

If anyone gets above ~10 bleeds and/or 15 confusion, they’re a bad player basically. Sure, there are builds that given stupidly ideal circumstances could stack conditions like that, but it’s not actually reasonable.

That being said, confusion is generally worse than bleed. If you can get high confusion but have low other condition pressure, then the person can just /dance until the confusion is gone. Not so with bleeds.

but that’s also the point: they can’t attack you.

KazNaka.4718:

but that’s also the point: they can’t attack you.

That doesn’t matter if you can’t kill them. They can just casually stroll away and you’re helpless to do anything to prevent it. Confusion ONLY works if you have additional pressure that forces them to take actions.

In a group setting, though, once you have confusion on them, they can’t really do much without taking loads of damage. They can’t just walk away when getting attacked by allies, and dodging triggers confusion damage. So it really depends on the situation.

KazNaka.4718:

In a group setting, though, once you have confusion on them, they can’t really do much without taking loads of damage. They can’t just walk away when getting attacked by allies, and dodging triggers confusion damage. So it really depends on the situation.

Dodging doesn’t trigger confusion damage. Only certain on-dodge traits cause that to happen.

Also, in a group situation, high stacks of confusion will often be getting cleansed, so it’s less of an issue.

This question has been killing me lately. Cause of something I will do later in this week.

If you were to fight another PU condtition Mesmer with 4 stealths, will I have a chance to beat them if I have only PU 3 stealths, and a Long Range and short cd on Blink? I am thinking of ditching Cleansing Configration trait and just have Power Cleanse to replace the extra stealth with a condi removal skill

So this will look as below

Torch with Cleans Condi(24)/ Torch(30)
VEil(90)/ Power Cleanse(20)
DEcoy(40)/ Decoy(40)
MI(90)/ MI(90)
Blink 900 range(30)/ Blink Range 1200(24)

Edit: Never mind. As the recent iMage threads suggest, there is way more pros in having cleansing configuration than the pros that come with having 1200 blink range.

Pyroatheist.9031:

KazNaka.4718:

but that’s also the point: they can’t attack you.

That doesn’t matter if you can’t kill them. They can just casually stroll away and you’re helpless to do anything to prevent it. Confusion ONLY works if you have additional pressure that forces them to take actions.

As much as I would love for this to be wrong, Pyro is completely correct.
I engaged a necro today in wvw and he just ran away from me. Condi builds pretty much rely on the enemy going into the fight with you, killing your clones and whatnot. So if they don’t wanna fight, they can just run… and you really can’t put all that much pressure on them.
You can get lucky and catch them with a pistol stun and immobilize from sword and hope the duelist will take his toll on the enemy. But for the most part, they can just run and the phantasms will be out of range.

And that’s when you think, hey PU is really only a good trait for running away or against opponents stalling for time to get back-up or are confident in taking you on.

Ps: I know many PU specs can take on 1vX fairly easy

what have people been using in spvp?

I am torn between baltahzar/lyssa/undead

sigils? do you guys actually use purity? I use things that produce bleeds on swap, and energy.

has anyone deviated from the 20/20/30?

Lahel.6381:

And that’s when you think, hey PU is really only a good trait for running away or against opponents stalling for time to get back-up or are confident in taking you on.

Ps: I know many PU specs can take on 1vX fairly easy

PU is a strong trait for a lot of things, especially this spec. I use perplexity runes myself when I run my variation of this build, but I use them simply for the extra pressure they provide, not because I want to focus on confusion.

If you add on the normal 5-10 stacks of confusion you’ll get just playing normally to the rest of the condition pressure, you now have a far more potent tool than 25 stacks of confusion and nothing else.

This build does suffer from chase down issues…but what else is new in the world of Mesmer…

Dietzen.6127:

Pyroatheist.9031:

KazNaka.4718:

but that’s also the point: they can’t attack you.

That doesn’t matter if you can’t kill them. They can just casually stroll away and you’re helpless to do anything to prevent it. Confusion ONLY works if you have additional pressure that forces them to take actions.

As much as I would love for this to be wrong, Pyro is completely correct.
I engaged a necro today in wvw and he just ran away from me. Condi builds pretty much rely on the enemy going into the fight with you, killing your clones and whatnot. So if they don’t wanna fight, they can just run… and you really can’t put all that much pressure on them.
You can get lucky and catch them with a pistol stun and immobilize from sword and hope the duelist will take his toll on the enemy. But for the most part, they can just run and the phantasms will be out of range.

I agree with this statement. It has been one of the most frustrating parts of the build. What to sacrifice for stuns. I usually use signet of dom for the nice 1200 range 3 second stun but a lot of times I miss. When messing with this build I tried ditching staff for sword/ pistol plus sig of dom but it doesn’t have good synergy because in a confusion build you WANT your enemy active. With that said I tried to only use those skills when the person was about to heal. I also tried dropping torch for pistol so i had staff immobilize, pistol stun, sig stun. Again. same issue. the confusion stacks go to waste. I also tried sword/pistol staff and sig of dom. A lot of control for single target combat but poor for confusion users. I would like to know what the best setup for max bleed stacks are.

Lahel.6381:

And that’s when you think, hey PU is really only a good trait for running away or against opponents stalling for time to get back-up or are confident in taking you on.

Ps: I know many PU specs can take on 1vX fairly easy

I disagree with this. The aegis alone has kept me alive through more fights than I ca count. PU is the bomb when dealing with thieves or multiple targets as i prefer to fight. I get little from the regen ticks as I have 0 healing. Once upon I time I did drop my 20 from power into the healing trait line. Which from what I saw I gained double ticks of regen. one from my phantasms and one from the PU generated regen. It helped a little when fighting through conditions. Also the ability to get the scepter cooldown and 200 condi was nice. I just never stayed with the build. I may however revisit it and use the givers weapons since the 200 condi on trait should closely even out the loss of the condi from givers weapons.

Here is a short low pixel vid of your blackwater build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mh8PXN04Eg&feature=youtu.be

These 2 Asurans had the drop on me from behind. They were a coordinated team. I had another good 1vx earlier and may upload as well. Started as a 1v3 but more enemy joined. So i ended up running off and turning around hoping to pick some off. The SUN guild from SF was very determined to play with me so I made them my friends. Good fight yall. Lovin the blackwater build. Only way I’ve been able to solo roam with any real success.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Lahel.6381:

And that’s when you think, hey PU is really only a good trait for running away or against opponents stalling for time to get back-up or are confident in taking you on.

Ps: I know many PU specs can take on 1vX fairly easy

This build does suffer from chase down issues…but what else is new in the world of Mesmer…

Build better.

It’s not just chase, but also escape. Blackwater is as like toying with a flaccid kitten, and in the long run, nobody likes playing with those.

Wow, great build thanks for sharing, been looking at it quite a while but only went with it the last couple days. Staff aoe makes 1vx very feasible and active defense of phase retreat scepter block and f4 shatter make up for the compartively low health pool, while stacking toughness reduces damage intake anyway.

I am running with zerk weapons (same sigils you use) a cavalier back piece and zerk amulet, then carion accs, rabid rings (mainly cause i am poor :P).

Went looking for fights on reset, had a few 1v1s, a couple 2v1s and an amzing 3v1 against a Bronze Assaulter(commmander warrior) Colonel(ranger) and Silver recruit thief, unfortunately, if the thief was any other class i might have one, but i eventually stomped the ranger, but he just kept ressing the warr when i downed him, and as he was a D/P thief i couldnt focus him down as he spent 99% of his time stealthed :/ but oh well great fight nonetheless and i died with honor.

Seriously good build, you should post more vids of yourself using it though

Ross Biddle.2367:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Lahel.6381:

And that’s when you think, hey PU is really only a good trait for running away or against opponents stalling for time to get back-up or are confident in taking you on.

Ps: I know many PU specs can take on 1vX fairly easy

This build does suffer from chase down issues…but what else is new in the world of Mesmer…

Build better.

It’s not just chase, but also escape. Blackwater is as like toying with a flaccid kitten, and in the long run, nobody likes playing with those.

That’s amusingly insulting, and hilariously incorrect, but I don’t value your opinion enough to explain why.

well im a noob can you explain to me?

KOPPER.1458:

well im a noob can you explain to me?

Sure. This build has the potential for some of the strongest condition burst in the game. Multiple stacks of confusion, burning, high stacks of bleeding, high stacks of torment all within a couple seconds, on top of cripple, weakness, and vulnerability. A significant amount of this condition pressure is also aoe. These attributes make this build excel against multiple opponents, and it’s nearly impossible to actually attack someone running this build without getting killed rapidly (pretty much only phantasm builds can pull it off).

On top of this (when I run this build) you have a 1200 range traited blink, and of course the defensive utility from prismatic understanding, along with very high toughness and strong condition removal from torch, which makes it incredibly difficult to actually pin down someone running this build. It means it works very well in outnumbered situations, and the recurrent stealth allows you to disengage and reengage nearly as effectively as a thief.

Really the only single weakness this build has is that it can be difficult to stop some classes/builds from running away (also phantasm builds can kill it…but that’s more of an axiom of gw2 pvp).

The weaknesses of the build (After playing it for ~a month now) seem to be:

1. Issues chasing people.
2. Tricky to actually force someone to commit to combat.
3. Scales only moderately well to zerg combat.
4. Not truly useful in PvE.

On the plusside, you still do ok in PvE, you excel when getting jumped, you excel at 1-3 vs 1-3 combat and you can handle group vs group flanking combat in zerg warfare exceptionally well. You also do very well as a harasser or siege controller around structures because you can stealth away easily.

Hey Natsu can you or someone for that matter give us a quick rundown on the rotation you use to maximize the damage stacking and confusion for this build. I just started using it and it seems I get some decent conditions but I feel I am missing some oppurtunities.

Thanks in advance..

Usually depends what weapon set I happen to have out at the time, but I like to start off with sceptre/torch out,

Something like this

> sceptre 3 (5 stacks of confusion, perplexity usually proc for another 3)
> torch 5 (3 more confusion stacks up to 8/11)
> torch 4 (stealth and dodge towards them and be on top of them when you appear again for a blast of burning)
> sceptre 2 (if they are still attacking with their 8-11 stacks of confusion)
> swap to staff
> keep dodge rolling/phase retreating (staff clones are boss for applying conditions)
> staff 5 (chaos storm on top of them, may proc an interrupt for 5 confusion, mostly it will just add some extra conditions/pressure)
> staff 4 for your chaos armour
> staff 3 if you have time (usually hits for 1-2k depending on how many conditions they have)
>keep rolling around and auto attacking with staff for a bit for conditions
> swap back to sceptre/torch, see what’s off cd and go from there

(at any time you need to, use blink/veil/decoy/whatever you have on your bar to help survive and such)

@ Ross, please keep that crap off my thread, I do not appreciate having to read it and I’m sure nobody else does either.

I really appreciate your response Natsu. I think once I get the rotation nailed down a bit better I will see a big difference. I know for sure I have escaped some major outnumbered fights with this setup.

Good luck on the battlefield.

How bad would running travelers runes and celestial armor kitten this build?

I switch out clone on dodge for the longer rang and shorter CD on the Duelist. iDuelist is the biggest source of damage in this build if you are running sword/pistol, the direct dmg is decent even with a condition build and it will stack 4-8 stacks of bleed. It is also very useful against thieves or other stealth professions because the barrage will keep hitting even in stealth. The longer range and shorter CD will make sure you will keep constant pressure on people.

I must say that thanks for Natsu for this build. To put it simple: this build is close to unkillable and extremely frustrating to opponents. I run it with sword/pistol and feel like an exterminating machine.

I love this build in SPvP, and that’s without Perplexity runes. Having a full setup of cond. armour, I’d like to try this in everyday gaming as well.

How does this build do outside of WvW? Solo-roaming? Dungeons?

The build does great at a solo roamer, but as fights grow in size it starts to lose effectiveness because the build, well tbh Mesmer as a profession lacks propers spammable AOE. It ok in Dungeons, but the great thing with this 20/20/30 build is that just by switching gear to power/knight and changing a few traits it will become a decent power build.

Natsu Dragneel.1625:

Usually depends what weapon set I happen to have out at the time, but I like to start off with sceptre/torch out,

Something like this

> sceptre 3 (5 stacks of confusion, perplexity usually proc for another 3)
> torch 5 (3 more confusion stacks up to 8/11)
> torch 4 (stealth and dodge towards them and be on top of them when you appear again for a blast of burning)
> sceptre 2 (if they are still attacking with their 8-11 stacks of confusion)
> swap to staff
> keep dodge rolling/phase retreating (staff clones are boss for applying conditions)
> staff 5 (chaos storm on top of them, may proc an interrupt for 5 confusion, mostly it will just add some extra conditions/pressure)
> staff 4 for your chaos armour
> staff 3 if you have time (usually hits for 1-2k depending on how many conditions they have)
>keep rolling around and auto attacking with staff for a bit for conditions
> swap back to sceptre/torch, see what’s off cd and go from there

(at any time you need to, use blink/veil/decoy/whatever you have on your bar to help survive and such)

So a problem with this build (also highlighted by the rotation above) is condition removal.

Using the torch offensively makes it very difficult to use for condition removal (because the skills are on c/d). On top of that it removes at most two conditions (one for each skill if they are not on c/d). So even then it’s pretty weak for conditions.

I’ve had more success lately with a 20/20/0/30/0 phantasm power build with condition removal on shatter and condition removal on heal. A power build also addresses issues with runners.

Unrelated, I suspect that perplexity runes will be nerfed on Oct 15 with a cooldown mechanic. This will limit the incredible confusion stacks some players are getting. Pure speculation but I believe it.

juno.1840:

Natsu Dragneel.1625:

Usually depends what weapon set I happen to have out at the time, but I like to start off with sceptre/torch out,

Something like this

> sceptre 3 (5 stacks of confusion, perplexity usually proc for another 3)
> torch 5 (3 more confusion stacks up to 8/11)
> torch 4 (stealth and dodge towards them and be on top of them when you appear again for a blast of burning)
> sceptre 2 (if they are still attacking with their 8-11 stacks of confusion)
> swap to staff
> keep dodge rolling/phase retreating (staff clones are boss for applying conditions)
> staff 5 (chaos storm on top of them, may proc an interrupt for 5 confusion, mostly it will just add some extra conditions/pressure)
> staff 4 for your chaos armour
> staff 3 if you have time (usually hits for 1-2k depending on how many conditions they have)
>keep rolling around and auto attacking with staff for a bit for conditions
> swap back to sceptre/torch, see what’s off cd and go from there

(at any time you need to, use blink/veil/decoy/whatever you have on your bar to help survive and such)

So a problem with this build (also highlighted by the rotation above) is condition removal.

Using the torch offensively makes it very difficult to use for condition removal (because the skills are on c/d). On top of that it removes at most two conditions (one for each skill if they are not on c/d). So even then it’s pretty weak for conditions.

I’ve had more success lately with a 20/20/0/30/0 phantasm power build with condition removal on shatter and condition removal on heal. A power build also addresses issues with runners.

Unrelated, I suspect that perplexity runes will be nerfed on Oct 15 with a cooldown mechanic. This will limit the incredible confusion stacks some players are getting. Pure speculation but I believe it.

You could always swap out a utility for null field, mantra or arcane, it wont really affect the rotation and its all personal preference, also, the torch skills remove conditions as well.

The 6th bonus on the perplexity would probably get an icd or changed to perhaps confusion damage/duration, really though, the 6th bonus on the runes was just a little bonus dps if your chaos storm happened to interrupt them (it doesn’t happen that often and if they put in an icd I really don’t see it changing anything)

Update The Blackwater Mesmer is officially the winner of the build of the month contest, just giving a thankyou to everyone who voted, and also everyone who helped make this build the way it is now over the last few months!

Congrats Natsu, thoroughly deserved.

Yay! Congrats!

Grats! My Blackwater/Traveler’s variant is doing great too!