Guild Wars 2

The general consensus seems to be that the new Confounding Suggestions is on the strong side. However, this is only the case in duels, where you’re fighting one opponent. In group fights, stunning one person every 5 seconds is rarely a huge benefit.

Therefor, the suggestion:

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

What this change will do is drastically reduce the frequency of stuns against a single player in a duel, making that aspect less overpowering. It will simultaneously boost the potential of lockdown Mesmer to scale their effectiveness up in larger fights, which is currently lacking.

Good luck getting someone read this.

I’m reading this and I agree. CS is strong as a 100 percent stun. And it’s made universes stronger paired with Power Block which I’m going to argue does way too much damage in conjuction with our phantasms, shatters and other sources of direct damage.

A 10 second ICD would probably be reliable, especially considering we can cast actual stuns in other ways — the pistol 5 and Signet of Domination. Keep in mind that even when not stunned, the enemy would still be dazed.

I entirely agree. That would be a much better change. Though 10s feels a bit too long, 5 too short. Something like 7-8s would be a nice sweet spot.

I chose 10 seconds based on total effective stun output.

Currently, 1 per 5 seconds.

With my change, 1 per 10 against one person, 1 per 5 against 2 people, and then increasing gains compared to now with every additional person past 2.

Thanks for telling me about the existence of this thread! I created my own due to my internet rage blinding me to other threads on the page.

Anyway yeah, this just needs to be nerfed so people roaming from point to point in a match aren’t stunlocked and killed in 5 seconds before they can actually go to a teamfight, since not every build in conquest wants to be 1v1, in fact most really don’t.

I knew that having everything available for lockdown would be a little too good. I think lockdown has enough to play with and CS is too good for an adept trait. This is basically the only mesmer nerf I’ll ever ask for so don’t mess this up A.net

+1 to this awesome suggestion.

I like the idea of 10s. I only suggested 15 earlier because Mesmer has access to at minimum 1 daze in every single build up to 4 maximum. And that’s not including other forms of interrupt (GS5, Focus4, S. Domination etc).

I think the OP’s original suggestion is very fair in theory and something I think everyone could rally behind.

Not played with it but it does seem strong given what has been said here. I also agree that having the ICD on the target not the Mesmer allows the trait to scale well without becoming silly OP.

Another thing to consider, multiple mesmers. Do they all share the same ICD on a target so the target can only get hit by the trait every 10s?

For some reason I thought Confounding Suggestions was stun on interrupt like PowerBlock. Is it a 100% stun every 5 seconds for each daze you throw at your target regardless if the daze interrupts or not?

Leodon.1564:

For some reason I thought Confounding Suggestions was stun on interrupt like PowerBlock. Is it a 100% stun every 5 seconds for each daze you throw at your target regardless if the daze interrupts or not?

Yeah. And as a bonus the stun lasts longer. It’s great, and I love it, but it’s a bit much in its current state.

Pyro’s suggestion is a great way to tone it down without downright nerfing it

Nice proposed change. +1

Sounds like a good change but I imagine this will be closer to the actaul change: 15% chance to stun target when hitting target with diversion. 60sec ICD.

If warriors can stun/cc us consecutively without drawback how come we can’t.

I think it’s fine as is. The point is to focus down a single high priority target in group play. Who cares how it works in duels? Balance is group play.

This is probably the most kitten suggestion I have seen, I don’t understand why you need 10s icd and further complicating the trait by making target based icd. The trait is good as it is now because it requires actual thinking to apply the stun to a target that needs to be focused down instead of just dropping an AoE stun in a group.

Besides, it’s easily hard-countered by just one necro trait. The one that fears you the enemy when they’re CC’d. Tested the stuns and CCs with my friend who was testing out Necro, they could barely feel the stuns/CCs lol.

Dammerung.6419:

I think it’s fine as is. The point is to focus down a single high priority target in group play. Who cares how it works in duels? Balance is group play.

This is my thinking as well. IMO giving the trait a target based CD in its current form would make it way too strong even if it was a 10sec target CD. The current ICD is 5secs but if it were a target based CD you would be able to use the trait mulitple times within that same amount of time while having a 100% stun success rate. If your opponents don’t have stab up, you could quickly go from target to target stunning them. There is no way they would keep the stun chance at 100% if they were to implement what you are suggesting. It would have to be lowered to account for the fact that you could use the trait so often. The 100% chance to stun is what I like most about the trait as it gives us a really good means for setting up bursts and locking down targets so i’m fine with it as it is.

Furthermore, does lockdown really need anymore buffs at this point? I don’t really think so. It can do everything the traditional shatter build can do and more. You already have good AoE CC/Interupt options coming from things like Chaos Storm, Mantra of Distraction, Illusionary wave on GS, and focus pull when using CI.

Nice suggestion to fix this trait. +1

Bump, because this suggestion needs to be implemented. +1

no thanks -1, i don’t want a longer cooldown.

Seyiwaji.4082:

no thanks -1, i don’t want a longer cooldown.

Of course you don’t. You’re not interested in a balanced game. At least you’re upfront about it though.

+1 It may need to go up to 10. However, they should start with 7-8 sec to see what happens. Then decide if it needs more. No need to rush and nerf the ICD by 50% right away. Anet has time. We all know what happened with MtD.

I like this idea more than the others going about.

Xstein.2187:

+1 It may need to go up to 10. However, they should start with 7-8 sec to see what happens. Then decide if it needs more. No need to rush and nerf the ICD by 50% right away. Anet has time. We all know what happened with MtD.

The key, as I explained earlier in this thread, is that it’s not just a flat nerf. MtD was simply a 50% nerf. This is a rebalancing of how the procs are applied.

Against 1 person, you’ll be able to output half the stuns as previously. Against 2, you’ll output the same. Against 3, you’ll output more, and higher numbers of people will further increase the effectiveness.

The change only is a flat 50% nerf for a single target fight, and introduces a varying scale of effectiveness that allows the trait to respond to changing fight conditions.

Yes, I read, I was just simplifying to save words. They should keep your suggestions the same and drop the cool down to 8 sec first against 1 before 10 seconds against 1. My point was, they should take baby steps. As I said, it probably will need 10 sec against 1. However, in the real game, you don’t know what 10 seconds will do, and you don’t know what 8 seconds will do. We just know now that 5 sec is too powerful. When referring to MtD, I wasn’t actually comparing it to CS. I was only pointing out that they probably should have taken baby steps with MtD as well because they obviously didn’t.

Caelus.7139:

If warriors can stun/cc us consecutively without drawback how come we can’t.

Because warrior hammer is actually very well telegraphed and there is a counterplay to it. Mesmer will just spam mantra on you without even interrupting anything and get the stun proc. No counterplay and it rewards bad play.

Imo, it should be on interrupt.

You still have to charge the mantra. Also stability and stun breakers are a thing.

^
Their, a fellow mes telling you how it is. It’s your fault if you don’t bring cleanses. Tell me again how we can spam mantra when there’s 5s cd per charge and the trait has 5s ICD. Learn to adjust to us, we are no longer an afterthought from before patch.

All in all, if it does gets nerfed, I just sorely hope it’s like Pyro’s suggestion and nothing over the top (as per Anet standards) like 20s ICD or 25% chance lol.

Laraley.7695:

Imo, it should be on interrupt.

Please at least put a little bit of thought into things you say.

This suggestion would literally delete it from the game. A stun is nothing more than an immobilize and a daze rolled into one, but it’s worse than an actual immobilize and a daze applied together.

Funny thing is, we have a trait that applies immobilize on interrupt. This means an immobilize and a daze are applied together on interrupt, objectively stronger than a stun on interrupt.

Again, this adorable suggestion would delete the trait from the game.

Illusion of Life —> Mimic --> Illusion of Life

Come on Anet, I’d love a multi target 10sCD on Confounding Suggestions!!

I think “on interrupt” stipulation is the best solution with the most counterplay added into it. That way you can’t just mindlessly spam MoD into a roflstomp stealth burst. To compensate, the daze and stun duration increase could be raised to +50% and icd removed so you could (theoretically atleast) stun lock a group of players. Could be a lot more exciting to watch than now with the current iteration.

Smirgel.9460:

I think “on interrupt” stipulation is the best solution with the most counterplay added into it. That way you can’t just mindlessly spam MoD into a roflstomp stealth burst. To compensate, the daze and stun duration increase could be raised to +50% and icd removed so you could (theoretically atleast) stun lock a group of players. Could be a lot more exciting to watch than now with the current iteration.

On interrupt would be the same. Why? You can interrupt almost everything. AA? MoD that beesh andddd he gets stunned. Then you burst.

On interrupt, as I said earlier, would delete the trait from the game.

If you can only stun on interrupt, then it literally turns the skill into a weak version of CI. A stun is a daze + an immobilize, that can be broken by a single stunbreak. CI applies an immobilize on interrupt, without removing the daze, which means it would be objectively stronger in every way (without even counting the additional condition and boons).

On interrupt is a hilariously awful suggestion that only shows how little people actually think about what they suggest.

Fay.2357:

On interrupt, as I said earlier, would delete the trait from the game.

If you can only stun on interrupt, then it literally turns the skill into a weak version of CI. A stun is a daze + an immobilize, that can be broken by a single stunbreak. CI applies an immobilize on interrupt, without removing the daze, which means it would be objectively stronger in every way (without even counting the additional condition and boons).

On interrupt is a hilariously awful suggestion that only shows how little people actually think about what they suggest.

The best Confounding Suggestions rework I can give you is Like the gw1 skill Panic

50% to turn dazes into a stun, dazes you apply of spreading to 5 targets.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

On interrupt, as I said earlier, would delete the trait from the game.

If you can only stun on interrupt, then it literally turns the skill into a weak version of CI. A stun is a daze + an immobilize, that can be broken by a single stunbreak. CI applies an immobilize on interrupt, without removing the daze, which means it would be objectively stronger in every way (without even counting the additional condition and boons).

On interrupt is a hilariously awful suggestion that only shows how little people actually think about what they suggest.

The best Confounding Suggestions rework I can give you is Like the gw1 skill Panic

50% to turn dazes into a stun, dazes you apply of spreading to 5 targets.

I think in the strong place that Mesmer is in, CS definitely needs a CD even if it procced on 50%… Besides, this is not the Chaos line. I don’t want my skills depending on Lyssa’s lucky favor. If the icd is based on individual targets, that helps to keep MoD a strong AOE presence.

I still think the original suggestion keeps its flavor while helping to stop mesmers from chain stunning in such a short time with MoD.

MoD will already daze 5 targets so you are not gaining anything here. You will only benefit for F3 (if-not-traited) and Sw#4 (if not lucky).

Fay.2357:

On interrupt, as I said earlier, would delete the trait from the game.

If you can only stun on interrupt, then it literally turns the skill into a weak version of CI. A stun is a daze + an immobilize, that can be broken by a single stunbreak. CI applies an immobilize on interrupt, without removing the daze, which means it would be objectively stronger in every way (without even counting the additional condition and boons).

On interrupt is a hilariously awful suggestion that only shows how little people actually think about what they suggest.

Can I ask why this would be a problem? The traits are in different lines and furthermore, CS is an adept trait, whereas CI is a grandmaster trait. Shouldn’t it be a little weaker? I feel the ‘on interrupt’ suggestion is a lot more nuanced than just another ICD increase. A lot more ‘skillful’, if you will, since it prevents MoD just being used in order to land those insane Mirror Blade shatters, which is ridiculously easy right now.

Edit: Yes, it might make the trait less useful for CI builds, but surely not for everything else.

Average Momo.8153:

Fay.2357:

On interrupt, as I said earlier, would delete the trait from the game.

If you can only stun on interrupt, then it literally turns the skill into a weak version of CI. A stun is a daze + an immobilize, that can be broken by a single stunbreak. CI applies an immobilize on interrupt, without removing the daze, which means it would be objectively stronger in every way (without even counting the additional condition and boons).

On interrupt is a hilariously awful suggestion that only shows how little people actually think about what they suggest.

Can I ask why this would be a problem? The traits are in different lines and furthermore, CS is an adept trait, whereas CI is a grandmaster trait. Shouldn’t it be a little weaker? I feel the ‘on interrupt’ suggestion is a lot more nuanced than just another ICD increase. A lot more ‘skillful’, if you will, since it prevents MoD just being used in order to land those insane Mirror Blade shatters, which is ridiculously easy right now.

Edit: Yes, it might make the trait less useful for CI builds, but surely not for everything else.

Adept and grandmaster have no meaning anymore. You have to go fully into a line, so the only thing that matters is what traits it shares a spot with.

Yes, they’re in different lines…but why does that matter? There is no justification for having two traits that do the exact same main effect…but one does it far better than the other.

If CS was on-interrupt, it would be nothing more than a very weak version of CI. Repeat traits are bad, and repeat traits when one trait is awful by comparison are horrid.

The traits do different things. One is on interrupt, and can proc from any disable. One is on-daze only, and converts to stun. If you want CI, take CI. If you want CS, take CS. The two traits must retain their individuality, not just become ‘well, I don’t want to go into chaos, so I’ll take CS since it’s the cut-price version of CI, but in domination instead.’

I think the easiest “fix” that doesn’t turn into a huge CS nerf is to reduce the daze duration on MoD.

Because the problem isn’t just the rather low ICD, it’s that it makes the initial opening very powerful. If you up it to 10 seconds it’s not a big difference because you’re getting CS again right as Mirror Blade and Mind Wrack are ready. 1/2 or 1/4 second MoD would still be very powerful in the right hands.

(Being able to get a nice full-second stun out of F3 is legit. This needs no change.)

ASP.8093:

I think the easiest “fix” that doesn’t turn into a huge CS nerf is to reduce the daze duration on MoD.

Because the problem isn’t just the rather low ICD, it’s that it makes the initial opening very powerful. If you up it to 10 seconds it’s not a big difference because you’re getting CS again right as Mirror Blade and Mind Wrack are ready. 1/2 or 1/4 second MoD would still be very powerful in the right hands.

(Being able to get a nice full-second stun out of F3 is legit. This needs no change.)

I disagree. That will only weaken other lockdown builds that don’t use CS. Before the trait changes, MoD was never a problem. CS is simply too strong for an Adept level trait. It needs to be adjusted.

Fay.2357:

The general consensus seems to be that the new Confounding Suggestions is on the strong side. However, this is only the case in duels, where you’re fighting one opponent. In group fights, stunning one person every 5 seconds is rarely a huge benefit.

Therefor, the suggestion:

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

What this change will do is drastically reduce the frequency of stuns against a single player in a duel, making that aspect less overpowering. It will simultaneously boost the potential of lockdown Mesmer to scale their effectiveness up in larger fights, which is currently lacking.

Sorry,it is still strong in group fights as it is now.Maybe in random but when you focus on target with your teammates it is very helpfull.

Sandrox.9524:

Fay.2357:

The general consensus seems to be that the new Confounding Suggestions is on the strong side. However, this is only the case in duels, where you’re fighting one opponent. In group fights, stunning one person every 5 seconds is rarely a huge benefit.

Therefor, the suggestion:

Increase the icd to 10 seconds. Make the idc local to each enemy player as the blind on ineptitude is.

What this change will do is drastically reduce the frequency of stuns against a single player in a duel, making that aspect less overpowering. It will simultaneously boost the potential of lockdown Mesmer to scale their effectiveness up in larger fights, which is currently lacking.

Sorry,it is still strong in group fights as it is now.Maybe in random but when you focus on target with your teammates it is very helpfull.

The stun lasts 1 second. In order for your team to focus on target in 1 second, VoIP is required.

If the trait is only useful in team fights if the team has VoIP, then it’s only useful for maybe 1% of the Mesmer population, at best.

Seems like something worth changing to me.

Fay.2357:

The stun lasts 1 second. In order for your team to focus on target in 1 second, VoIP is required.

Your target’s movements help you sync your burst even in the absence of comms. You don’t need VoIP to have two or three players select the same called target and watch for a good opportunity. They’re both responding to the opportunity.

SlimChance.6593:

I disagree. That will only weaken other lockdown builds that don’t use CS. Before the trait changes, MoD was never a problem. CS is simply too strong for an Adept level trait. It needs to be adjusted.

“Other lockdown builds that don’t use CS?” If you’re running full-on lockdown you need to be taking Power Block and Chaotic Interruption. There’s no reason not to pick up CS while you’re at it.

MoD has always been about interrupting, not about putting a second of daze on someone here or there.

MoD also got significantly improved by the mantra recharge overhaul — it’s the mantra that benefited most since previously the cooldown between charges basically doubled the actual cycle time of the skill. So arguably something’s gotta give, and I think increasing the spacer cooldowns or the recharge time would be worse.

Again I disagree. Lockdown <> Stun.

There’s that OTHER lockdown trait called Chaotic Interruptions that is NOT in Domination. We now have better access to blinds. With Chronomancer, we’ll have access to SLOW. These can all be considered “lockdown”.

You want to nerf a skill that was never an issue until the ADEPT level CS was added. MoD is NOT the issue. MoD simply applies a daze. Its the TRAITS that make it powerful. The skill itself is fine.

CS is the problem, it is simply TOO much for an adept level trait.

When will it sink in that trait “levels” are irrelevant. If you pick a trait line, you’re all in.

Tealots.6095:

When will it sink in that trait “levels” are irrelevant. If you pick a trait line, you’re all in.

This bears repeating.

Because my friends when it comes to balancing, ANET looks at traits at that level and will make adjustments such that there is a “meaningful” decision for the player. i.e. No single trait at any level should be more powerful than the other two. So CS needs to be similar in strength as “Empowered Illusions” and “Rending Shatters”.

Not only will they look at the other traits at the same level, but I’m sure they also consider other profession traits at that same level. For example, they will look at CS (Adept) and compare its relative strength to Mesmer as “Burning Precision”(Adept) is to an Elementalist.

They have gone on record that GM traits are “build” defining. And I think its safe to say, that most Mesmer’s agree that CS is too strong. Heck, we’re in a thread discussing ways to adjust. I’m merely adding the caveat that its too strong for an ADEPT trait. If it was a GM trait, its strength would be justified.

So YES, it does matter that its an ADEPT trait. Because at the end of the day that is how ANET is going to adjust it.

That is also my reasoning that MoD should not be touched. Because you should NOT nerf a skill just because of one ADEPT trait.

ASP.8093:

Tealots.6095:

When will it sink in that trait “levels” are irrelevant. If you pick a trait line, you’re all in.

This bears repeating.

Quite. The level of a trait matters only as a means of forcing choices between alternatives that, for balance reasons, need to be mutually-exclusive. Having PU, Chaotic Interruption, and Bountiful Disillusionment compete for the same slot is way more important than ensuring that any of them is “stronger” than, say, Master of Manipulation.

I mean, in general, it’s more intuitive for traits further to the right of the screen to be more powerful — or at least more build-defining — but it doesn’t need to be a hard rule.