Guild Wars 2

Yes playing PU makes you a scumbag. Does it matter anymore? Probably not, because DD faceroll ele and cele engi are almost as scumbag. Passive fear necro is more scumbag.

To the guy above though, you’re just wrong. While the build does not always define a player, PU is an incredibly low skillcap spec, shatter has much higher potential and is better in general for a team. However the game is still at the point where people in SoloQ can’t actually think about what’s going on in the map, so PU mesmers like Pyro can get into top 100 SoloQ because idiots just 2v1 him all day. Typical SoloQ.

Ooo that Pyro shade was bone chillingly delicious!

It’s a shame that threads like these still exist. sigh There’s a low skill cap on PU, but so what? Anyone who says otherwise are fanatically wrong. That being said, it IS an effective build in the hands of the skill for several formats, and they shouldn’t be shamed for using the tools in their utility belt. It’s not the “best” in team fights or tpvp, but as some have said, it has its arguments.

MailMail.6534:

Ooo that Pyro shade was bone chillingly delicious!

It’s a shame that threads like these still exist. sigh There’s a low skill cap on PU, but so what? Anyone who says otherwise are fanatically wrong.

This…really is quite false. There’s absolutely a low skill floor, no denying that. The skill cap however, is monstrously high on PU, just as it is for every mesmer build in the game. It’s very easy to get confused though. You look at a build, see how it’s easy to do well, and assume a low skill cap when really those are the characteristics of a low skill floor.

Elitist.8701:

PU mesmers like Pyro can get into top 100 SoloQ because idiots just 2v1 him all day. Typical SoloQ.

I also maintained top 200 team queue without a team. Slightly less idiots over there, wouldn’t you say?

Introducing…the Scrub

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is.

~ Sirlin.net

I’m seeing a lot of scrub talk in this thread. A whole lot.

so you play this spec. all i can do is hope i dont get queued with you on my team. You can play whatever you want and for the most part it has 0 to do with me.. unless i am forced to play with you. It is the bad version of a bunker.

Im not saying you are unkillable in a OP way.. im saying that it is a waste of time to even act as if you are on the battle field. The only way PU changes the outcome of a fight is if a person actualy bothers to stop and fight one. PU would just be wasting thier time to try to decap vs any bunker that has a point already. And if you are trying to be +1 to a fight that is already taking place you are doing alot less damage and control then other mesmers.

You play PU i get it.. You will say anything it takes to justify that the spec you are playing takes skill and you arent taking the easy way out. You dont want to feel as if you arent helping your team even though you chose less damage/team support then other specs/professions.

The question isnt if PU can eventually kill someoene in a 1v1 of = skill. The question is if your spec is optimal.. can other specs do your job better then you are.. If there are other specs doing the job you are trying to do in a more efficient way then you are choosing to force a square peg into a round hole… and comming to the forums to tell me how this peg is going to fit.

If its about fun.. and eventually killing someone.. go nuts.. WVW i can buy the fact that when 20 guys run your way there is a reason for a ton of stealth. but in spvp unless you are being troll .. i personally think that other professions / specs can fill the job you are trying to do better then a pu mesmer.

StickerHappy.8052:

Playing shatter over PU does not make you “More” skilled, or playing any build other than PU for that matter, save that elitist sense of pride for yourself.

Plus, PU doesn’t even have a lower skill ceiling. The effect just tapers off. A truly skilled PU player is still noticeably better than an average-good player.
Just that a beginning player with a Blackwater-spec (not really Power PU) will do better than a beginner having a zerker-shatter setup.

(edit)
zaxon already mentions the crucial downside of PU specs, IMO.

They’re awesome for duelling and the duel-seeking roamers simply because these people aren’t clever enough to not want to fight you. They think they have to commit to and win every 1v1 or they haven’t proven their worth. Blackwater-setups especially are amazing at punishing this attitude.

However, they rely nearly entirely on the enemy actually wanting to fight you.

To be a good PU player, you need a sense for who the enemies are who don’t know how to fight (or rather, not fight) PU specs. They’re easy fodder, they basically kill themselves with their leet 1v1 specs. And you have to know when to not even bother as the target would just run and return with 2-3 friends to gank you down.

zaxon.6819:

so you play this spec. all i can do is hope i dont get queued with you on my team. You can play whatever you want and for the most part it has 0 to do with me.. unless i am forced to play with you. It is the bad version of a bunker.

Im not saying you are unkillable in a OP way.. im saying that it is a waste of time to even act as if you are on the battle field. The only way PU changes the outcome of a fight is if a person actualy bothers to stop and fight one. PU would just be wasting thier time to try to decap vs any bunker that has a point already. And if you are trying to be +1 to a fight that is already taking place you are doing alot less damage and control then other mesmers.

You play PU i get it.. You will say anything it takes to justify that the spec you are playing takes skill and you arent taking the easy way out. You dont want to feel as if you arent helping your team even though you chose less damage/team support then other specs/professions.

The question isnt if PU can eventually kill someoene in a 1v1 of = skill. The question is if your spec is optimal.. can other specs do your job better then you are.. If there are other specs doing the job you are trying to do in a more efficient way then you are choosing to force a square peg into a round hole… and comming to the forums to tell me how this peg is going to fit.

If its about fun.. and eventually killing someone.. go nuts.. WVW i can buy the fact that when 20 guys run your way there is a reason for a ton of stealth. but in spvp unless you are being troll .. i personally think that other professions / specs can fill the job you are trying to do better then a pu mesmer.

Are you seriously telling me I play PU zaxon? I mean out of all people, really?

StickerHappy.8052:

Are you seriously telling me I play PU zaxon? I mean out of all people, really?

That was probably aimed at me.

Carighan.6758:

They’re awesome for duelling and the duel-seeking roamers simply because these people aren’t clever enough to not want to fight you. They think they have to commit to and win every 1v1 or they haven’t proven their worth. Blackwater-setups especially are amazing at punishing this attitude.

See, that’s the wonderful thing about capture point PvP…if you’re standing on their point, or they want to be standing on your point…they have no choice but to fight or sacrifice it.

no.. it was aimed at ross biddle… everyone can play whatever they want for fun.. some people do play specs as trolls.. and some play things because they out perform other things. It is not about if you can eventually decap a point.. it is how fast you can decap a point. In my opinion i think pu can be replaced by other specs/professions for a clear upgrade.. so do most top tpvp teams it seems.

I am all for people having fun.. and feeling a certian playstyle fits them. It isnt even hate in any way..

I think that if you are making pu work in a real high lvl pvp situation.. It is because you are good enough to make it work.. but i also think you are selling yourself short by playing it because you could do more for your team with another spec. YES i know you disagree.. its still what i think..

zaxon.6819:

no.. it was aimed at ross biddle… everyone can play whatever they want for fun.. some people do play specs as trolls.. and some play things because they out perform other things. It is not about if you can eventually decap a point.. it is how fast you can decap a point. In my opinion i think pu can be replaced by other specs/professions for a clear upgrade.. so do most top tpvp teams it seems.

I am all for people having fun.. and feeling a certian playstyle fits them. It isnt even hate in any way..

I think that if you are making pu work in a real high lvl pvp situation.. It is because you are good enough to make it work.. but i also think you are selling yourself short by playing it because you could do more for your team with another spec. YES i know you disagree.. its still what i think..

I’ve been playing power interrupt. Interesting though that you’d assume my weighing in is to defend turf, or some personal love of some particular aspect (I.e. PU).

No, what I’m doing is touching on the foundations of Playing to Win, and pointing out that within this thread there are any number of examples of genuine scrubs at play. You don’t like PU. You don’t think it can compete in competitive spvp. I hear you, I do. The question is does a PU build produce results? Does it offer a valid tactic and approach to a build comp? Does it result in victories? If the answer is yes then all your crying, blustering, complaining, and made up rules about what is/isnt right to play are irrelevant. So it’s a pretty simple problem I see happening here. You have the opinion that it doesn’t produce winning results, and in fact it can. Therefore you’re wrong. Simple as that.

Wait, is pyro= ross biddle in the their past lives!? you two talk the same.!

The way I look at PU is the same way I look at everything low risk/decent reward spec in this game.

I don’t like it, I will never play it seriously, and I typically do not associate with mains of the spec. But I cannot stop you from playing it, and if you must play it I hope you do so because you enjoy it.

To that end imo no one is a scumbag for rolling something they simply enjoy.

The scales of balance will always waver and this game does have an over abundance of low risk builds to me this is just another, so little point complaining about it.

I think the ONLY thing to be salty about is the fact that a lot of the nerfs given to PU affect the class as a whole.

ross biddle you are saying how effective PU is in competitive pvp.. yet you do not play it and either does any other team.

zaxon.6819:

ross biddle you are saying how effective PU is in competitive pvp.. yet you do not play it and either does any other team.

Yeah, and pretty much no top level team uses mesmers at all, so what does that tell you?

Fay.2357:

zaxon.6819:

ross biddle you are saying how effective PU is in competitive pvp.. yet you do not play it and either does any other team.

Yeah, and pretty much no top level team uses mesmers at all, so what does that tell you?

rofl

Almost all of my playtime goes into WvW btw, and there’s very little of that these days. Anyway to conclude, I feel like the intricacies of this broader discussion, of playing to win, are lost on you. There’s a depth to this that could be talked about but I’m doubtful you’re even of the mind to delve into it. That’s not an insult, rather an explanation as to why at this point I see a fruitless conversation moving forward.

You could, for example, take Fay’s comment as an deft prithee dismissal, but if you were to think about it see there is so very much more at play than a lot of people are willing if not able to realize.

it tells me.. that as a leader of the mesmer guild.. you dont really follow tpvp.

zaxon.6819:

it tells me.. that as a leader of the mesmer guild.. you dont really follow tpvp.

So even as a leader of a mesmer guild you’re capable of making poor assumptions. Okay. Neither your being a leader, nor your false assumptions move this anywhere.

Either does making false statments. TCG could be considered a top pvp team. I understand that the abjured dosent run mesmer but i think they are a team based on playing very well(the same specs/professions they have been playing forever) more then a planned team comp.

And this also goes more to the point of what a mesmer min/maxed brings to an organized team that other professions can not. Stating that top teams dont run mesmers means we have a limited skill set that we bring to a tpvp match at high end. Moving further away from our potential best spec to suboptimal specs ends up causing the mesmer to fall behind other classes/professions in what we bring to the table. That is what im saying about PU … If you are playing it for fun.. to Troll.. because you just want to.. wahtever.. dosent make you a scumbag.. play the game you want.. im just saying what im saying.. you can agree or disagree.. and it seems you want to disagree. so///w/e… you will continue doing whatever you do and so will i..

zaxon.6819:

Either does making false statments. TCG could be considered a top pvp team. I understand that the abjured dosent run mesmer but i think they are a team based on playing very well(the same specs/professions they have been playing forever) more then a planned team comp.

And this also goes more to the point of what a mesmer min/maxed brings to an organized team that other professions can not. Stating that top teams dont run mesmers means we have a limited skill set that we bring to a tpvp match at high end. Moving further away from our potential best spec to suboptimal specs ends up causing the mesmer to fall behind other classes/professions in what we bring to the table. That is what im saying about PU … If you are playing it for fun.. to Troll.. because you just want to.. wahtever.. dosent make you a scumbag.. play the game you want.. im just saying what im saying.. you can agree or disagree.. and it seems you want to disagree. so///w/e… you will continue doing whatever you do and so will i..

Yes, Helseth still plays Mesmer. He play it because he’s good enough that it’s worth it for his team to contort itself to make the class work.

If he were equally skilled on any other class, he would be far far more efficient and impactful in games.

Helseth is pretty much the only one left. Supcutie stopped playing Mesmer competitively over a year ago at this point, because it simply isn’t worth it for most team to completely build around playing Mesmer. There are just better and more effective options.

What all this has to do with PU Mesmer other than showing that at the top tier of play neither shatter not PU is truly effective? No idea.

It says that even the best spec mesmer has is barely enough to make it onto any team. What this says about pu is what my original statment said…. like 30 posts ago.. i would rather have most other meta spec of any profession on my team over a PU mesmer in a tpvp / solo queue match. That was my original statment and…………….here we are on page 2. Of course someone who is a good pu mesmer is better then someone else who cant play at all on another profession.. but if skill is the same then spec matters.. and i think other specs bring more to a fight.

There’s a lot to take into account here.
On the EU meta, PU could not be run seriously at a high level. Bunker guards would nullify it in teamfights, it wouldnt be able to overthrow the regen wars points and the shatter mes/thief roaming comp’s would deal with a solo light class holding the point in half a second.
On NA it would be a lot more viable using it, as NA tends to run builds suited for 1v1/2v2 to play a 3 point game.
I have also maintained top 200 teamq using shatter pyro, and I feel a player of your skill would have gone a lot further running shatter with an organised team. Finding an organised team that’ll take a Mesmer in NA isn’t exactly easy though

Ross Biddle.2367:

You have the opinion that it doesn’t produce winning results, and in fact it can. Therefore you’re wrong.

You’re not thinking clearly, if it produced winning results then it would be being used in tournaments for money. It isn’t. It isn’t even used in weekly ESLs.

Coulter.2315:

Ross Biddle.2367:

You have the opinion that it doesn’t produce winning results, and in fact it can. Therefore you’re wrong.

You’re not thinking clearly, if it produced winning results then it would be being used in tournaments for money. It isn’t. It isn’t even used in weekly ESLs.

Now you’re over thinking it. Or rather your definition is to narrow. I am simply talking about playing to win in general. In place of what I’ve said you’re attempting to erect a straw man, which is fallacious.

You do have a point though but it’s a separate faucet of the discussion.

Fay.2357:

See, that’s the wonderful thing about capture point PvP…if you’re standing on their point, or they want to be standing on your point…they have no choice but to fight or sacrifice it.

True, but you’re still inefficient. You have to stealth and move, constantly losing presence on the point. Not really a problem if not fighting alone ofc, but not ideal for capturing or defending a point, either.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Coulter.2315:

Ross Biddle.2367:

You have the opinion that it doesn’t produce winning results, and in fact it can. Therefore you’re wrong.

You’re not thinking clearly, if it produced winning results then it would be being used in tournaments for money. It isn’t. It isn’t even used in weekly ESLs.

Now you’re over thinking it. Or rather your definition is to narrow. I am simply talking about playing to win in general. In place of what I’ve said you’re attempting to erect a straw man, which is fallacious.

You do have a point though but it’s a separate faucet of the discussion.

I’m afraid I don’t agree with you. Your general statement is “its a spec that works and wins” to back up its reason for use. <- If I haven’t understood this correctly please say.

If my assumption is correct then we would see it being used in situations where its important to have a build that works and wins. We don’t. This would imply there is another reason for people to run it.

I am thinking he is saying it (pu) works fine for wins. The debate about mesmer in higher tier competition is more based on the meta and the design of the mesmer currently.

The original debate was about whether or not you are a scumbag for playing PU.
You are, you will be very useless for your own team and rather pesky but not quite dangerous for the enemy.
Granted, you will still be able to cap points that are left completely undefended with the same speed that any other mesmer spec would.

I don’t want to derail this thread too much, but I don’t where people get the idea mesmer isn’t used in top tier tournament PvP. Supcutie has played mesmer as recently as a couple weeks ago in the ToG. Other teams actively using mesmers at what I would consider high/top tier are Sharks with Lazers, Made in Meta, TCG, Apex Prime and Boon. Mesmer is absolutely viable in a team that is built to use it’s strengths and able to provide valid peeling and protection for it. And many teams are actively doing just that.

Just not with PU mesmers.

Playing a build shouldn’t make you feel or have any emotions tied to it that negatively. If it works and your happy then play it. If we are trying to optimize for a select speciality area then you would spec for it. Also specing for this change one would notice another class can do it better hence the limited showing of mesmers in conquest mode. A scumbag dances or taunts griefs other players. Simply applying trait points should have no bearing on your actually gaming behavior to be labeled “scumbag”

Fay.2357:

zaxon.6819:

ross biddle you are saying how effective PU is in competitive pvp.. yet you do not play it and either does any other team.

Yeah, and pretty much no top level team uses mesmers at all, so what does that tell you?

Well this is fanatically wrong.

If conquest wasn’t the main/only mode I bet you would see more PU mesmers and this thread would take a different turn…..The capture aspect is the only thing making it “bad” but they nerfed a dueling spec inferior in pvp #squadbalance

@RossBiddle you’re trying quite hard to defend PU aren’t you? There’s a clear difference between being a “scrub” and being CARRIED by a spec that is designed specifically to beat bad players. Furthermore bringing up that same idiotic article is getting quite old. Pyro, the PU spec has an incredibly low skill ceiling. I think you’re mixing up spec skill ceiling and personal skillcap. And really, I’ve never seen a PU mesmer that was actually “good” to the same extent that top players and duelers are. I’ve seen many very good shatter mesmers though. Shatter mesmer is also very viable in a team that has enough coordination to use portal perfectly and rotate fast and burst down key targets in coordination. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the top 2 teams EU, MiM and TCG, both have mesmers.

You never wanna +1 the guy with the name “Elitist” but here I am…

This is like octobers steamiest Mesmer thread. Good points on both sides here.

Elitist.8701:

Pyro, the PU spec has an incredibly low skill ceiling. I think you’re mixing up spec skill ceiling and personal skillcap.

Are these not one and the same in many regards? If your personal skillcap surpasses the skill ceiling of a build, then it has no avenue for expression. I see the skill ceiling of all mesmer builds being an essentially unattainable limit, giving personal skill all the room it needs to be expressed.

Elitist.8701:

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the top 2 teams EU, MiM and TCG, both have mesmers.

The EU meta is certainly quite different than the NA meta, and I’m not going to dive into the argument of which one is superior. What I can say is that both those mesmers are good enough to justify building a team around them…but as I said before, if they had equivalent skill with any other class they would be significantly more efficient and effective.

Fay.2357:

Sandrox.9524:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

You’re awful.

Yes,it is a bit harsh,but it is true.PU dosnt offer nothing to the team,it is a solo roaming build.You might want shatter build with boon removal or lockdown for control,not “bunkering” pu mesmer.

Yeah…this is simply incorrect.

Fay.2357:

sustain sustain sustain sustain bla bla sustain

sigh..this is like seeing the good thing in a very bad thing.Very very werid prespective on this…
To make it short,there is no way PU build,shadow reju build or any stealth focus build,anywhere reliable in tpvp.you cant do nothing againt real bunker,you cant really hold a point or decap a point.Next thing you know the medic thief is the new meta…
So yeah you can prolong a fight,kudos!

Sadly the recent PU nerfs haven’t ended this silly and pointless argument.

Didn’t your parents tell you not to worry about what other people think of you? What do you think the opinion of anonymous people on an internet forum is actually worth?

Play what you want to play. Play whatever build/style fits you best, and you have the most fun with!

Am I a scrub because I don’t “play to win” professional gaming tournaments? Who cares! People here like to act as if any of them are even remotely playing in that league. lol! Newsflash: Professional video game players aren’t playing a game folks, they’re at work trying to make a living! There is a big difference, and in general they’re not exactly top earners, nor are their “careers” long and fruitful in all but the very utmost of extreme cases.

Lastly, I think some commenters perhaps haven’t actually played or played against a half way decent PU Mesmer recently. It’s changed a bit since the nerfs, and is a lot less passive and less dependent on your attackers willingness to indulge you. (Depending on build at least.) I wouldn’t recommend the old BW build as that was basically the direct target of the nerfs, and is IMO noticeably less effective then before, except for the little bit of added Torment off the Sceper, but that doesn’t really change much. Also, it’s noticeably less tanky then before, any way you slice it…which also means it can be countered more easily then before.

PU Condie wasn’t destroyed by any means, but also isn’t the be all and end all of dueling builds that it was before either. Pretty good balancing job by Anet actually.

All this “play to win” stuff is a good response to a whiner crying about being beat by a PU build, but used in a broader discussion of mesmer builds it is just hypocritical and silly; If you truly “played to win” you would not be playing mesmer.

If you’re going to lecture people on artificial limitations or mental barriers etc. you should probably make sure you don’t have any yourself. Choosing to play the mesmer is definitely not the optimal choice for winning in any game mode, so something else is motivating you, i.e., you yourself have a mental barrier or whatever.

This whole notion of “playing to win” tries to be all meta and deep, but anyone can see through it: Why “play to win”? Sense of achievement? You could get a much deeper sense of that doing almost anything else besides playing a video game, so you aren’t really being optimal. Money? Joke. Renown? Ditto. “Playing to win” at a game can be argued to be scrubby in life in general by the exact same logic as you apply to gamers who don’t “play to win.”

The better response to a whiner who cries about losing to PU is: LOL

Love this thread btw, no disrespect to anyone.

To the OP, I’d yes, it does, in that many people will dislike you, and scuumbag is usually determined by how others view your actions. PU like any stealth heavy build in this game exists, functions and wins almost completely by exploiting a crappy user interface. Stealth is just target dropping, that’s all there is to it, and then with PU you add some clutter making it slightly more difficult to reacquire the target, which you need to do in order to use most of your skills . Almost all people outside of those who rely on this mechanic view it with at best ambivalence, but mostly with extreme contempt, and so most people will view your playing it as scuummy. So yes, you will be seen as a scuumbag by most of the player base, thus for most intents and purposes, you are.

Elitist.8701:

There’s a clear difference between being a “scrub” and being CARRIED by a spec that is designed specifically to beat bad players.

True, but I wouldn’t say “carried”.
In many team games, few players want to play “The Medic”. The healer. The support. Yet some players love it, but even ignoring that someone has to play these for the team to work out.
A spec punishing 1v1 roamers and people stupid enough to think duelling is a way to win is a good thing. Yes, it’d be really bad if we all played it, but some need to use it so that the duellists stay shackled to the ground.

Plus, the spec is really problematic outside of its main advantage. Yes, it rips through 1v1-centric specs (or rather, they kill themselves on it), but it lacks group support, it lacks stopping power (even Power PU does, compared to other power-specs), it lacks CC, it lacks everything. Well except defence, but “bunker” is hardly a novel concept in sPvP or WvW.

Carighan.6758:

and people stupid enough to think duelling is a way to win

Here’s the important bit of what you wrote.

To get this out of the way, playing PU doesn’t make you anything. If you’re going into the game with the intent to troll and cause mischief then that’s on you, the Mesmer has nothing to do with it.

In my humble opinion if there’s any problem with PU and similar specs it’s that you won’t really learn about your class at all. There is some mild play in using endurance offensively vs. defensively, but this goes for glkittenter as well. I disagree with Pyro in that sense, I think the skill cap on these types of specs is low and that is what hurts the player behind them ultimately.

There is also an important point that has been raised: if these specs are so good to warrant scorn, why don’t teams run them? Well there are many reasons for that but it boils down ultimately to the limitations of the Mesmer class. I think there are some non-shatter setups that could potentially have team value as home bunkers but PU isn’t one of them. It’s too easy to counter, it doesn’t bring much of anything to the team and the heavy reliance on stealth is a major hindrance in capture points.

@shimmerlessEU
It has nothing to do with the limitations of the Mesmer class, more with what the PU-specs (specifically Blackwater) actually do: Punish 1v1 combat.

In random games, and in free WvW roaming, there’s a neverending supply of people happily throwing themselves at every 1v1 fight, meanwhile telling themselves that this has anything to do with skill instead of build wars.

Ofc, PU shoves that right back into their face: Here’s a build which yes, quite clearly dominates 1v1.

And?
As you say, it’s not being played much outside of an entirely unsupported game format which is actually quite actively discouraged by the game. The reason is that in the end, PU needs buffs. Quite significantly. Or well, the trait is good. But the specs we can build around them, high-stealth-builds, they’re rubbish outside of 1v1. They don’t bring anything other specs don’t bring worlds better.

Sticking with it since Torch was the weapon I picked up out of liking the graphics in the beta, long before PU was ever buffed. Yet on a pure “sense”-level, playing PU is only ever worth it if you run around punishing roamers. Which is fun, especially when you read on the forums how “srsbz” they think that whole style is. :P

ya wvw is like one big hotjoin server.. and it really dosent matter what spec you play. And you can play torch specs without pu. People fail to realize that your survivablitly comes alot from being stealthed,, more then it does from pu. Yes i get it the buffs are ok.. But the fact that you arent even a target in a fight matters alot more then PU itself.

The target drop is great but IMO the boons are what makes pu special(pre nerf) now watered down. The spec let you roam as boon generating machine along with bi. Those boons are the reason you can survive not the target drop.

hmm. well imo.. you dont need either. people who have played since release and those who made the mesmer profession amazing to me.. did not do it with PU they did it with skill. 1vx dominating whole teams of players before pu was even a thing. People who played before pu was buffed had to learn to play without the crutch and still can 1vx. no buffs.. the only stealth being decoy/mass invis.

thats why it kinda pains me that people think they need pu to do anything. people think that if they take the training wheels off the bike will just fall over.

it turns a very high skilled fast paced .. high risk high reward profession into something so much less.

It is having a 20 mph moped enter tour de france.. yes they make it to the end of the race eventually .. slower then everyone else.. and they also put no effort into thier poor performance.

In the beginning there was light. Lol in the beginning mesmer was such an annoying class to deal with why you saw such amazing feats. As the game progressed our cheap tricks vanished. When I play and use a stealth skill players pick you up a lot faster with or without pu. Those boons help simple as that. Training wheels mopeds and all.

i hear ya.. anet wants a noob friendly spec for every profession. I do think that is a good thing. If people had to play glkittenter as thier first mesmers spec this late in the game. they would most likley quit before learning it.

pu is mesmers version of minion mancer/turret engi/ shadow arts/ i guess.. longbow ranger now..

i do appreciate the place for these specs.. they make sure the game dosent just die.. that people have some kind of stepping stone that they dont just quit out of frustration.. low risk / low reward.. until they can maybe medium risk.. then high risk.

you cant learn to tight rope walk with no net or you will just die.

I don’t think it makes you or anyone a scumbag for playing something you enjoy. Personally I judge the attitude of players over whether or not they are ‘scumbags’, as opposed to what build they are running. It’s a game, play whatever you like and don’t worry about what anyone thinks.

That said, I do agree that the skill cap is very low on those types of builds and is sort of a ‘training wheels’ spec. When you play something like shatter you really have to have a deeper understanding of the game mechanics and of your own capabilities in order to perform well. With PU specs it’s easier in the sense that the traits carry you, therefore it’s simple to do well with PU builds. If that’s the way you like to play, then hf and go ham.

From strictly a wvw roaming standpoint I think it’s ok. Plenty of video evidence to support both play styles shatter/pu. The problem is when you roam (solo) you cannot control who what and where your fights will be. Why not take a spec that offers your best chance of downing and stomping someone? Applying traits should have no bearing or have such venom to label anyone a scumbag. If playing pve/ conquest pvp then yes bring something more team friendly. The same can be said of zerging/roaming trait accordingly.